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NO 88: The State of Planned Giving in Canada 2025 · PGgrowth - Planned Giving podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: The PG Growth Podcast.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: From time to time we like to sit down with some very smart people in the plan giving world in Canada to take stock of where we are today.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: A state of plan giving, if you will.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: And we did that again this year as we're entering into our 15th year of operation.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: We brought together this time three really well-known, well-respected, and frankly smart people when it comes to plan giving.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Peggy Colleen, who is a passionate advocate for plan giving and an expert in the field who is located in Montreal, Quebec, and understands that marketplace, but also understands plan giving in Canada.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: We also brought in Grant Monk.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: Grant is in Vancouver, but has run some of the largest cross-country and international programs in Canada.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: He's a technical expert, has been on the forefront of government relations for the CAGP for years.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: And finally, Ken Ramsey.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Ken is one of the originators of plan giving as a profession in Canada, founding chair of the Canadian Association of Gift Planners, where he's also been named with the Lifetime Achievement Award.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: Only two of those have ever been given out.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: He's also someone who has absolutely been at the forefront of leading conversation-provoking thought and driving us forward to do better in plan giving.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: This was a really interesting conversation.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think it will give you some perspective and context about how we operate Plan Giving in Canada, let you know where we are today, and also what are our opportunities and our risks for the future, and how we might think about repositioning and being in a better place to truly benefit from this area of fundraising.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I wanted to start by looking at the last 15 years.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: As many, well, all of you know and others will know that 15 years ago we launched PG Growth.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Here we are, still working away.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I wanted to take a look at, in terms of plan giving, what's been achieved, not necessarily by PG Growth, but by the sector itself?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: What have we seen happen that's been really positive, that's really elevated and moved plan giving in the Canadian context, amongst Canadian charities, uh along with Canadian donors, what's been really positive?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: Ken, I'm gonna turn to you first.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: When you think about the last 15 years, two last two decades, what do you see has been this positive movement forward?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing in 15 years, I I think that the there's been a decided trend, and that is lead generation uh has been uh outsourced more and more.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so and I was in that business, so uh but it's it's become prolific.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if I look at Canadian charities, I think they are actually better at developing lead sources now.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a there's a negative to that, but uh they've because uh many uh many organizations believe that is the uh the heart of planned giving.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we all know it's more than that, but that element I think has been fairly well developed.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not uncommon common for me to start working with a client now and they'll say, Oh, we have a thousand leads of people that have expressed interest.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the the the breakdown is is what are you gonna do with elite, of course, but that one element, uh, and frankly, it's it's pretty well pretty well all third party uh who are developing leads for charitable organizations.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So third parties, and it can be by EE blasting, it can be uh phoning, it can be um uh all the various techniques uh to develop these leads.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh and none of that's surprising because we always knew from research in Canada that there's a huge untapped potential.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go out and ask people if they're interested, uh they're gonna raise their hand a lot of them.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And but I I think we've gotten good at at discovering those people.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: However, and I gotta say it, the whole industry hasn't moved that far.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if eight to ten percent of people have a charity in the will, but 30 to 40 percent would, uh, those numbers haven't changed in 30 years.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: So uh that's an interesting point.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um again, just as a follow-up to that, I imagine that a positive of this, and we'll have a moment in a minute or two to talk about some of the downsides, but the positive I think has gone to do a couple of things, and I'd love to have your comment on this.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: The first one is it's proven concept.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, years ago we had this concept, we had this research, and that lead generation, if nothing else, is proving that if we engage with people, they'll think about that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think um, you know, so I think actually that's two things I've said in one sentence.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right, it's proven plan giving and Canadians is a good thing, and that should be taken in and and and run with.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's also proven some of the numbers as well.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh five to seven to eight percent of Canadians will leave a gift, 30% plus will be interested.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: And those were the the latest CAGP foundation numbers, right?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's proven that lead generation's gone to prove some of those numbers.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a real positive, where I think when we all got involved in Plan Giving, there weren't a lot of those numbers to be proven uh in that way.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's that's real problem.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Would you agree that that's a positive that's come out of that lead generation?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the in in some ways, Ed, it's become too successful because then uh people who don't really understand the business think that is the business.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, all we got to do is hire uh the latest guy coming in the door to give us more leads.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they'll they'll rise to the top eventually.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's really interesting.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead, Peggy.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, we've talked about this quite a bit, all of us, but I think that's the tactics versus strategy discussion that that we often talk about.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: That in terms of PG growth, we're about strategy and building a program.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're good at the tactics too, but we won't put a tactic into place like generating a thousand leads without having a plan and a strategy for what to do with that.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um maybe when you're talking about missed opportunities, um, we'll get to that in a minute.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: I want to stay on the positive right now.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: I got lots of time to talk about that other stuff.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: But what about you?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Ken's talked about lead generation.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh lots of offshoots or manifestations, really positive.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: Peggy, what about you?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think in your time working in plan giving over the last couple of decades, 15 years, what have you seen that's been a really positive movement forward on the plan giving side?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess it's probably anecdotal.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just talking to people around the country through my work with PG Growth, but also with CAGP over the years, I think we are seeing more and more individuals anyway in fundraising in general and philanthropy in general who think this is important and they understand that it's really important.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, whether that translates into something positive or not.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: But the positive thing is I think there's a recognition that plan giving is an extremely important uh revenue stream, more than a revenue stream, it's a revenue stream that's untapped and that we need to recognize that these donors are different to the or can be in addition to the donors that um we've been focusing on for major revenue.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's grown in the years that I've been in plan giving.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think the understanding that, wow, this is an important thing, whether we know how to do it or not, but we do recognize it.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and as a follow-up to that one, Peggy, have we seen gains amongst our charitable partners out there after the recognition, gains in development of programs beyond tactical deployment?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have you seen that as an offshoot of this greater understanding?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Not as much as I'd like to, but then we know that when people there are certain organizations that we know that have really, really taken advantage of this.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if they do it and do it well, we can show that this is really something that that works.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that they're sort of cornering the market in a way because there's enough other organizations out there that haven't quite taken advantage of it.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, I have seen it, but not as much as we should be seeing it.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, fair enough.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: Grant, I'll I'll turn to you um to get your take on that.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: What what have you seen, uh, much like Ken and Peggy, what have you seen over the course of the last 15, 20 years?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what I find the most interesting, and maybe take a 30,000-foot view here, is if we go back even 10 years before this uh 15-year period, so late 90s, early 2000s, you know, where this really got a lot of attention in the media and with some um higher level financial advisors, legal advisors, and boards of charities and CEOs was all of the tax incentives that came in.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: And what I find very interesting is, you know, we speak to our clients about, you know, that the most common uh you know, legacy gift plan gift is a gift in a will, but we also remind uh our clients that the donors during their life will not see any tax advantages from this gift, but still um, you know, it's a bit of nomenclature.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, when when many of us on this podcast today started, gifts of securities, for example, were fairly uncommon.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now they are bread and butter for organizations, and I would argue they are a planned gift.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: There is planning that goes into them.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: It could be a simple transfer, it could be through an estate.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: So keep in mind we we've got that context of firstly factual tax incentives.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the most charitable countries in the world in terms of lucrative tax incentives, that got the attention of many uh advisors, charities, donors across the country.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think the other um thing that I've noticed to some extent, um, and I still think we have a long way to go, is I am starting to see more integration.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: So many of us, when we started in plan giving, it was very much, you know, a siloed approach.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: We're not sure what that guy does in the corner or woman in plan giving.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: All this money comes in, but at least we're starting to hear more, I think, from the organizations we work with is you know, how do we integrate this with annual major gift?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what we're doing in terms of our communication.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: At least I'm I'm hearing that there's identification in many cases of the need for integration.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then, of course, we try our best uh to assist uh that need.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and just as a follow-up to that, I think this takes both pieces of what you just talked about and uh wanted to talk, because I know this is a really important area for you, is integrating plan giving within campaigns to utilize that tax benefit when structuring a gift.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Those blended gifts, I think, have made tremendous strides as well over the last little while.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what I find very interesting is um, for example, um, it would be quite unlikely that say uh a group of major gift fundraiser or an organization such as AFP would pick up the phone to any of us and say, could you present on plan giving?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: But when you talk about blended gifts, you talk about the current, the future, you talk about the gift of assets, the gift of cash, um, and all of the options um that are available.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the expression I use is uh that and gift.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we deal with a number of clients right now that are in campaign, and I think it's very logical to suggest to them listen, we know how hard it is to get a meeting online or in person with an individual, have that and discussion, um, the current, the future.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And my my personal view is that's a classic example of a planned gift.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: So what I've seen over the last uh 15 years for sure is the expansion uh and the the welcoming in of differing types of donors.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: I know that when I began in plan giving, there were certain um cultural, linguistic, uh almost geographical organ um uh areas that were seen as not uh you know good for plan giving, right?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I know um Grant, you and I talked at length about a certain client we had out your way in British Columbia, where they start off saying that they had a makeup demographically and and culturally in their catchment area, and they could not engage with part of that cultural group because this is not um something that that cultural group is in tune with.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: And frankly, 15 years later, they have someone who's doing really, really well with that same cultural group.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: That that group has come along.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then, Ken, I know that you and I have had conversations in in Peggy's neck of the woods with clients where there's been a really strong statement about, oh, this sort of group, uh, this sort of cultural background, they don't think about plan giving, but boy, that's changed over the last 15 years.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, you know, one of the things that um was had been a barrier uh over the years when we started all of us, but um, and one of the things I think that is being promoted is bringing in more and more diverse backgrounds under the intent of plan, uh the tent, sorry, of planned giving.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's actually happened over the last 15 years.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: We're seeing people taking, maybe taking advantage of the tax benefits, maybe being inspired to be philanthropists from all walks of life, from all cultural backgrounds.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and it gets to what Peggy often calls the democratization of major giving.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we've seen this, and and I think perhaps we could also call it at this stage the diversification of plan giving.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: Is there more to do?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: Of course there's more to do, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I've seen tremendous progress in that over the last 15 years.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: No, let's change tax a little bit.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: This was all positive.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: A couple of you were chomping at the bit to get to some of the flip side of the positive.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: So let's get to that, Ken.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what have been some missed opportunities, you know, maybe unfortunate developments?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we've missed a path or two that we could have taken uh to be successful.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: What have they been in your mind over the last 15, 20 years?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So why the as opposed to what was been really successful, why haven't we got to where we could be?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why haven't we uh really uh garnered the full potential?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that potential has always been there in every piece of research ever done.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so we have to take a critical look at what what haven't we done well.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think uh for sure uh the the lack of support uh both in understanding and also available resourcing uh from boards and senior management as is is a huge impediment.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing we haven't done.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know it in in many ways we haven't in our industry we haven't made the business case.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been talking for 20 years about this, as everyone knows.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the business case is is very persuasive.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and yet we we don't seem as an industry to be able to put it across and have it really accepted.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I you know that's one thing, and and that trip trickles down, you know.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm I'm working with with a client now who um who uh they received a five million dollar bequest.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, everyone got excited about plan giving.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: They hired me, I did uh a database analysis, and I'm I'm ready to kind of roll it out.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the person back in November said, uh, the stewardship person has left, and I have to take over that portfolio for the next four months.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So plan giving gets totally shelved.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, even though you know everyone was excited, and I presented to the full management team.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Soon as soon as uh someone, as soon as you need a replacement, they take the plan giving person.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think we have to acknowledge that and say that the that is a major um reason why it's not hard.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, uh even PG Growth has has had the odd client that has embraced the full uh the full uh structure and uh strategy of plan giving.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, you you know uh Canadian Wildlife is a federation, is a good example where we you know they work with us, we work with them to build a full comprehensive program.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it it works, there's no doubt it works.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is we had uh full support to do it, and they had full support, the plan giving department had the full support, but that's very unusual, uh uh truly unusual.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: It is, it is, and and uh you know, uh I would say this just as connecting that um to other sectors, you wouldn't be able to operate another business unit of any a revenue generating business unit, by the way, in this way in any other sector.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but for some reason we allow it here or or it really we don't allow it, we kind of put up with it, frankly.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of it gets back to we're gonna, you know, a lot of this falls on the on the you know leadership, you know, at the feet of leadership, both board and and senior leadership.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of it has to do with the fact that they don't really know what they're running here.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so it does happen.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: But Peggy, what about you in terms of what has been amiss or a path not taken when you think about um think about uh you know the last few years?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think I know what you're going to say, but you say it and then I'll tell you what what I thought you were going to say if it's not the same thing.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I actually, if you don't mind, I just want to follow up very quickly on what Ken said, because you know that that that leadership buy-in and and what you added to it, Ed, I think um part of it is is it's almost like politics when you have a board of leadership.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: They want their success now and they don't want to put it away to the future.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very short sighted strategy.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, dollars in the door today because it makes me look good.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And in twenty, you know, what's coming in in the next 10, 15, 20 years is going to go to make someone else.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Look good, and that's unfortunate.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are leaders who are are awful with thinking, but they're not there are not as many of them.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in terms of what I think you know I'm going to say, I think it's really it's the strategy tactics again.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if that that's what you thought I was gonna say, but I just just to go back to our conversation about how there are the good thing is that there are so many more um uh outside vendors, but also people who are doing it and learning how to do it internally, how to generate those leads.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: The flip side is how many times we see that those leads have not been followed up on.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I don't think it's just sad in some way.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh actually, this is how I met Ken originally was being asked to follow up on leads that had been generated by the company that Ken ran at the time that nobody had followed up on.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's sad in the sense that you know you pay for something, you get a service, you get a great service, you get given something, and then you don't use it.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: But even worse than that, it is insulting to your donors and your prospective legacy donors who have actually agreed to either talk to somebody or have asked for information or talk to somebody about their intentions and not been um acknowledged, and that relationship is just dead in the water.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think we see that quite a bit um as a missed opportunity.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to say what I thought you were going to say, Patty.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'll let you talk about it for a couple minutes, which is overall stewardship of donors.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: The fact I just saw an uh uh an episode of The Office, the you know, the iconic show, and uh, you know, one of the one of the um uh employees of uh you know the famed Michael Scott, you know, asks him the question uh in this episode, you know, what's what's um less expensive keeping a current client or finding a new client?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: And Michael Scott, like a lot of leaders in the charitable sector, is baffled by this question, has no idea what the answer is, and then his employee says it's 10 times more expensive to get a new client than keeping one.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: I would suggest on the donor side, it's 10 times more value added to the organization by keeping a good donor.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't spend a lot of time doing that.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I know, Peggy, and I'm quite shocked that you didn't say that, but there you go.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'll give you a few seconds to talk about it.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the same money principle applies.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: We spend a lot of money acquiring new donors and then losing them within a first year.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this may we may think this has nothing to do with planned giving.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is more about our you know direct marketing attempts, but actually uh we know that if you retain a donor after the second year, they're much more likely to then become, give for the third year, become a monthly donor, ultimately become a loyal donor who is committed enough to you to make a planned gift.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I see it as being crucial to just generally steward your donors, never mind your planned giving donors.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, once you have them, that's another whole story because you're gonna steward them until that gift comes in, which could be 20, 30 years or more.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: But uh one of the last jobs that I had during planned giving before I started consulting, we merged the two uh the two departments, stewardship and planned giving went together.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we were because we were looking at how are we stewarding our monthly donors who don't get a letter every time or a receipt every time, so they just kind of just fall by the wayside.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And how are we just in general stewarding people so that they can become uh part of the donor journey to the end of that donor journey, which is the ultimate gift?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's it's probably the area that next to plant giving is the least um resourced in terms of budget and human resources, and yet probably is the most important, should be the most important department.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: Grant, you know, what's what's your thinking about this?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: Again, missed opportunity, unfortunate development, you know, pathway we didn't take over the last couple of decades.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when we talk about missed opportunities, you know, every every day is important.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think every organization, in fairness to our discussion, they try to have laser focus on what they think is the most important thing to do that day to move forward their mission.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: We may not always agree that it's the most effective and efficient thing to do, um, but I I basically look at it in a very blunt way, in that um we only have so much time on this earth, and our donors only have so much time on this earth.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's fair to say when we look at generational transfers of wealth, many of us uh started with what we call that depression era generation, um, that were transferring assets to, in most cases, their children, baby boomers.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Many of us on this podcast are baby boomers.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: And there was a realization, I think, by a number of advisors and charities that they missed the boat in that period, in that generational transfer of wealth.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: I was struck yesterday.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: This may seem an odd um thing to mention, but I was struck yesterday watching the television of Jimmy Carter's funeral.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the commentators mentioned that the incoming president and two former presidents were all born within six months of each other, and they were all born in 1946, and we know that is the beginning of the baby boomer generation.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: And to be honest, looking at those three guys, including the incoming president, they look like pretty old guys to me.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, I actually represent one of the last years of the baby boomers, and I'm in my early 60s, and I think again, it is important to be pretty blunt with some of our clients and charities across the country and say, listen, um understand that you might have missed that last huge transfer of wealth, but I don't know if there's going to be another transfer like this again.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um and this is an opportunity, especially in terms of endowment, uh, especially in terms of really moving forward your mission.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: You may have a 10 to 15 year period at the most to following up on what Peggy has said, to you know build stronger relationships with that key age group.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because after that, um, I'm not sure if charities in Canada are going to have that opportunity.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: And what we know, and I know Ken has done quite a bit of work on this, what we know is every generation looks at giving in a different way, and they look at charities in a different way.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: And as we know that depression era generation looked at giving in a very different way than boomers, I'm not sure millennials or Gen Xers um uh are gonna give the same way.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the question is also out in terms of planned giving.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Are they going to be as generous and are they gonna have as much in the way of assets?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: So the clock is ticking here, folks.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that's one of our strongest arguments to make.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you missed that opportunity with the last transfer, don't miss this one.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, and very uh, you know, very uh good point there.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember being at the last CAGP conference and speaking to someone who's running uh one of Canada's um most well-known and well-funded plan giving programs, one that brings in a lot of revenue on a yearly basis for the organization.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, you know, uh they said to me, uh, you know, what should we be doing about uh, you know, millennials and and younger people when it comes to plan giving?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I did say, you know, to borrow your term, uh, Grant, I said bluntly speaking, nothing.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: Right now, don't worry about those folks.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a really, that's a really strategic moment.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I think generally speaking, politically, we want to include them.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: But right now is your opportunity to deal with that baby boomer group.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and so I want to turn back to you, Grant, to give you a chance to go first on this.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, some some some things that we maybe missed doing.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe give me a sense from your point of view of what our focus as a sector ought to be for the next decade, for the next 15 years.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what should we be doing to perhaps bridge the gap on some of the things we've said?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe there's something we've missed, maybe there's another opportunity here.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think should be our focus over the next decade to 15 years?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: The only way I think we can predict uh what will happen in the next 15 years and how we will react to it is to look at the past.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: And we have to learn from history.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: And we all know one of the biggest mistakes that's made by organizations is not learning from the past.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the one great thing that PG Growth does is we look at each client in a unique way to actually see where they're at, where they've come from, not only on the data side, but in terms of their philanthropic culture, their governance structure, all of those things.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it strikes me that the comment I made earlier about integration, I am assuming over the next 15 years that charities are not going to give more resources to plan giving.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say also that that kind of finite resources that they have generally, human resources, financial resources, is going to continue.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: It might be even more acute.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we're also seeing the growing statistics in Canada in terms of um, you know, there there may be some high net worth donors that are giving more, but generally the number of donors giving for many organizations is is decreasing.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: So this is where I think the piece about integration is going to be key.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: If the concept continues of having campaigns and kind of coordinating marketing, coordinating fundraising, that strikes me as the key time to integrate in plan giving and blended gifts.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's the most important time to educate your donor base, educate staff, educate volunteers.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: I am not assuming in the future we are going to have more standalone full-time gift planners.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's still going to be those people that uh, as we say, are doing uh plan giving off the side of their desk.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we have to look for those campaign type opportunities and any way that we can integrate with annual and major as much as possible.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think the clients that we're gonna be dealing with in the future, be they large hospitals, universities, small charities, um, they may be giving a smaller and smaller uh percentage of their financial and staff resources to plan giving.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we've got to um guide them in terms of mentoring and strategy to have a laser focus on legacy giving for the uh resources that they're gonna have.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: We can always advocate more resources.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't see it coming.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, thank you.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: And and um some good thoughts to take away.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: Ken, what about you?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: What do you see as a focus that we we as a sector, we as leaders, other leaders in the sector ought to be focusing on over the next 10 to 15 years?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh first of all, and uh to build on what uh Grant has said, I think things are going to get more difficult for fundraising overall.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's already happening.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: If we if you really start to uh talk to your cli our clients, uh I'm amazed at the panic, the the uh the almost urgency uh and worry that's uh that's uh uh spreading through many organizations.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it shows up in in in weird ways, like how long does the average person stay at her job now?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's less than a year.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a year or less.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when you start to work talk to the individuals, they're working in a totally chaotic environment.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm trying to coach a couple of people, and they've literally postmoded me for months because they can't give me an hour to do coaching, right?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and uh which is ridiculous, uh just one hour, but it's the mindset that they all have now, and many organizations, if you dig into it, have this kind of chaotic, um not totally non-strategic uh um uh um uh environment.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Plan giving in there, as we've said previously on this podcast, is something that takes time and it takes strategic viewpoint.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's going to get worse.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, I think fundraising is going to get worse.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: The trends are already established.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you look at the giving USA trends and and from what we get from from Revenue Canada, even the it's getting harder and harder to raise money in Canada.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: And with the impending uh economic challenges, which are here and going to get worse, there's no doubt about that.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: We all every economist acknowledges that now.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Where's where does fundraising sit in that?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so plan giving is it uh to some degree, plan giving is going to get more and more minimized.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: One answer, as Grant has said, maybe to integrate it into other areas of fundraising, uh, but it's still going to be low on the priority totem pole because it doesn't bring bring in money today.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: Fair enough.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: The only hope that I have for plan giving is that it's going to get so bad that the only area that that will have any positive uh revenue generating uh effect is plan giving in the future.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are talking about assets and people will still have assets, they might be minimized, but you still can't take it with you.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there's still an argument there for gifts of assets when you die.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you know, my uh hope is that plan giving will will become uh the the beacon of hope for fundraising.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I started to work with Frank, he used to uh Frank Minton, he would say a good program, 25% of the revenue comes from plan giving.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I and now I look back, I said, What why 25%?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: It should be 50%.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh and because that's possible.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's possible.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: And when other areas become impossible, there's an opportunity that that uh that there will be a recognition.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe I'm just being overly optimistic here, but uh, I'm talking about the fate of many worthwhile charitable organizations.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: So fair enough.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's that's really uh and and uh you're right.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think we found that in other economic downturns when plan giving continues to produce revenue, suddenly there's interest in it.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: Or there's other things during COVID, for example, where events were no longer a thing, uh, suddenly plan giving becomes interesting.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll I'll give a little thought about that in a minute.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: But Peggy, I'm gonna turn to you.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: What is what should we focus on as we go forward?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I was gonna say exactly what you said, by the way, just to say that I think that we have an opportunity here to actually position planned giving as almost, you know, the the way to uh get through this this hard time.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I also think there are opportunities that are gonna come out of uh the public uh awareness campaign that is being run um through the CAGP Foundation, the Will Power campaign.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that as more and more Canadians actually do become aware of the opportunity of a of a gift and a will in particular, um we need to make sure, just like that lead generation, um, not you know, not following up on it will not actually get you the gifts.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: We need to make sure that we take advantage of that and that we tell organizations that there are more Canadians out there that you probably don't know about, but maybe part of your uh donor base that are interested in this and that this is the time that we need to start talking to people about this.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's I think it's a it's a it's an opportunity for us in in the plan giving area of work to actually uh insert ourselves and say, you know, we could be we could be the solution here.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, fair enough.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: And and I I'm gonna just add a little bit um before we wrap up today about two of these things.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: One is I think our focus, and Grant and I have talked about this recently, but I know all of us have talked about this at some point, has got to be leadership.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: The leadership of these organizations.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, and this will be my editorial comment here, we focused on the practitioners, not the leaders.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: And Grant said earlier in this conversation, any kind of conversation that that is talking about in dollar sense, you know, tens of millions of dollars as a percentage can, 50% of all revenue, would have the attention of leadership.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't seem to have the attention of leadership, mostly because they don't know what this is about.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I will say this too, that we often get awestruck by our board members, you know, partly because they have dominion over us, and I will use that.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: We're overly governed leaders within organizations, executive directors, CEOs, VPs, do not want to run a foul of the amateurs that are on our boards of directors, because they hold their uh their careers in their hands to a certain degree.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: So we don't want to run a foul to them.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so we say to them, yes, you're experts, but most of them have no idea how to run a charity and definitely have no idea how to raise money, but they have control over this.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we need to focus not on, again, on the practitioners, but on the leadership and say and demand to them to explain to us as people who work in it, and we are leaders in this particular field, why is it that their program, you know, a hundred-year-old organization has no plan-giving program?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: That is a deliberate decision.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: They might say, no, well, we missed it or we didn't have a chance to focus on it.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's a deliberate uh malfeasance almost.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's a deliberate um turning away from the fiduciary responsibility.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, Ken, if people get into this, oh my God, the annual fund is gone and our major gift donors aren't giving anymore, and we've never done planned giving, you know, who's to blame for that?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the practitioners, it's leadership.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I think our focus needs to be on waking up some of those people.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh that's going to be hard and and uh because they don't wish to be woken up.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: They they wish to be on boards and they wish to uh exert influence, but they don't want to learn necessarily.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: Grant, what are your thoughts about all of that?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I just want to make a comment.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm thinking about the people that are going to be listening to this podcast.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: Excuse me, I presume many of them are clients of ours, people that uh have responsibility in gift planning.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think in many cases, what we've been saying today, we are uh, you know, preaching to the congregation.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think though, where we can be of greatest assistance is to assist um gift planners, people that have that responsibility, um, to have some tough discussions with CEOs and board chairs.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: And many of us, including myself, have been board chairs.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: We understand the responsibility.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I still remember one of the most prominent board members in Canada who had the honor to work with.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: A few boards, he said, you know, Grant, um, I'm looking around this board, and we have all made tens of millions of dollars for our businesses.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: But he said, I can tell you, I have been on charity boards for the last 30 years, and for some reason we leave our rational brains at home when we put on our charity hat.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: So um I think that um as we give some tough love at times um and the coaching that can and others do, um, I think that we um have to uh give find as many opportunities as possible to get in front of those boards and and leadership and assist the people that are trying the best they can to move a plan-giving program.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think what Peggy has mentioned, for example, I think the majority of the people on who are listening to this podcast understand the importance of relationships, understand the importance of stewardship.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: We have to be there though to strongly say you've got to invest in these people, you've got to invest in these programs.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think hopefully some people listening to this podcast today will say, you know, um, I think that uh one of the people on this podcast, we need them to have a, you know, uh Teams call or do a presentation to our board, uh, answer questions, but also be pretty assertive and tough and say, this is why you should be doing it.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: And because you haven't been doing it, this is how your mission has been affected.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you have a fiduciary duty as a board member, but also you have a responsibility as a CEO to make sure that this is a major part of your fundraising.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I I think you're absolutely right.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: And and I do think there's another moment of opportunity here, and would love to hear your thoughts about this, Grant and Peggy or can, because I think we need to change the language that we use.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: And um I'm I'm aware that in the last 15 years I've been um uh speaking somewhere, and someone will introduce me as an expert in a niche area of fundraising.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: And um and I think that that's of course you know incredible given what we just talked about, given 50%, as you say, Ken, could be how much revenue comes through this.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, and the and the fact that most of these gifts are tens of thousands of dollars.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: And if you just leaned in, there would be substantial revenue uh for your organization.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: We have to change the nomenclature.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I was on a call recently, and I think Grant, you're on the call with me as well, when I talked about some of the language I used to use, which is there are three areas of fundraising: annual, major, and planned giving.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: And it's sort of like sitting down with your financial planner and you've got X amount of dollars to invest.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: Where should you invest it?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it is the risky investor.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's the investor that doesn't mind losing money that is only going to put it into the most risky events, uh, the riskiest um uh uh investments.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I would call that annual fund.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's the riskiest investment.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh some of them will put it into annual fund and major gifts, or you know, the most risky investments and maybe the mid-level investment.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: But a fully holistic, thought-through investment portfolio is going to also have safe, long-term investments, just in case the economy goes to pot, as Ken is saying, that it's going is happening already, and just in case um some of those risky investments do not pay off.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the one thing that has been proven, and Ken did some research on this, is in those times of economic recession, plan giving actually increases in value for organizations.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: All of this information is there's an opportunity, though, for us, for those listening to our podcast today, for their leaders to rethink exactly how they think about plan giving and and and uh move this forward in that way.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to thank you all for being on this.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: This has been a really interesting conversation, as always.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh love sitting down and talking to all of you about plan giving and our opportunities.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I look forward to working with all of you and working with our clients for the next 10 to 15 years to make it all happen.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: Peggy, thank you very much for being on this today.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: Ken, as always, great pleasure for you to be here.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, likewise.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: And Grant, thank you for taking some time today.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Good discussion.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for joining us on the PG Growth Podcast.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_03: For more podcasts and more information about PG Growth, please go to our website at PGgrowth.com.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks also to our great team, Julia Magnuson Ford and Stephanie Rodriguez, for making this all happening.