Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / IT, AI & the skills-based enterprise w/ Ravin Jesuthasan

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IT, AI & the skills-based enterprise w/ Ravin Jesuthasan · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

• 0:01
  Welcome it, changemakers to the deck Show with Tim Flower and Tom McGraw.
• 0:07
  Let's get into it. Hello changemakers, it's your deck show. I'm Tom
• 0:11
  mcgraha. I'm joined as ever bitiing Flower and we are joined for the second
• 0:15
  time by one of our favorite guests. It's a return of raving Joseu Fuss
• 0:21
  and raving. Great to see you again, sir. How have you been?
• 0:25
  I often think you know, you're our connection to the to the Davos
• 0:29
  crowd of the great and good of the world. You have to you have
• 0:31
  to come and tell us what's going on. How's your year being so far?
• 0:34
  What are they talking about? Oh, that's great to be here with
• 0:36
  both of you. It's it's been going well. Um, we've my last
• 0:42
  book as we've as you've probably seen us, done relatively well. It seems
• 0:47
  to have prompted a lot of interest. M Davos was really I think it
• 0:53
  was nice to get back there in January from twenty twenty and then perhaps more
• 0:59
  recently, the World Economic Forum Growth Summit in Geneva was a really good gathering
• 1:06
  where they released their Future of Jobs report and it was intriguing to see particularly
• 1:11
  in this era of generative AI, you know, the impact of automation,
• 1:15
  the impact of economic uncertainty on jobs, as well as the impact of the
• 1:22
  of the energy transition on potentially work. So something exciting changes. I think
• 1:29
  big topics there, and congratulations on the book. Last time we spoke was
• 1:33
  actually October of twenty twenty one. Doesn't time fly, gentlemen, And we
• 1:40
  spoke all about the concept that stuck in my head ever since, which is
• 1:44
  which is called the democratization of work. So you know, whenever when we
• 1:49
  reached out to you to have you back on the show, we immediately wanted
• 1:51
  to hear what you wanted to discuss first and foremost, and you raised a
• 1:57
  concept called the skills based enterprise and the impact with new technology on this notion.
• 2:02
  So let's start with it because I hadn't heard of it before, as
• 2:06
  I hadn't the democratization of work once upon a time. What is the skills
• 2:09
  based enterprise? Right? Yeah, So it's probably the hottest topic around and
• 2:15
  it does tie into that point about the democratization of work because if you think
• 2:21
  about it, Tom and Tim, the two most important forces that are transforming
• 2:25
  work are certainly digitalization. You know, enabling technologies like the one we're on,
• 2:30
  but also you know the large language models which are democratizing access to aim.
• 2:38
  You know, PwC announced that they're training all of their employees to use
• 2:44
  chat GPT, and chat GPT is just that Tibothy Iceberg on the digitalization journey.
• 2:51
  Because you've also got you know, DAI two, You've got Codex,
• 2:54
  which is making English the most powerful coding language around, you know, set
• 3:00
  aside Python and Julia, etc. So digitalization certainly is one really important force.
• 3:06
  The other term, to your point, you made democratization of work,
• 3:09
  And just to remind your users, you know, when we use the phrase
• 3:13
  the democratization of work, it's what it's speaking to is our growing ability to
• 3:19
  increasingly decouple work from its traditional confines of space, time, and structure.
• 3:24
  And those two forces together are transforming work and giving rise to this notion of
• 3:30
  the skills based enterprise. And what the skills based enterprise is is its organizations
• 3:38
  who have shifted from the job as the singular currency for work to increasingly skills
• 3:46
  being the currency for work. And the reason they're doing that is to drive
• 3:51
  much greater agility and resilience and flexibility to respond to those two forces I talked
• 3:55
  about. They're moving beyond that one to one relationship between a degree, a
• 4:00
  person and a position to the many too many, you know, to the
• 4:04
  unique bundle of skills and capabilities that's Tom versus Tim, the many different career
• 4:10
  opportunities that could be opened up for you. You know, when we go
• 4:14
  beyond that one to one relationship between a person and a position and so,
• 4:20
  and what it involves is the matching of changing demand for work to the skills
• 4:27
  of the talent we have to the specific skill gaps that need to be closed
• 4:31
  so that we can make those connections ever more seamlessly. So that's really the
• 4:36
  essence of the skills based enterprise, if that makes sense, and you see
• 4:43
  it as effectively something was going to really exacerbate that democratization trend, I think
• 4:49
  so, I think it. I don't know if it exacerbates as much as
• 4:54
  enables organizations to more effectively respond to that in exorable force that is the democratization
• 5:01
  of work. We're just going to see that continue, and I think the
• 5:04
  skills based enterprise allows companies to respond to it proactively and perhaps even use it
• 5:11
  to for advantage. So you know, it doesn't matter what topic we have
• 5:17
  on the show, we always work our way back to AI. It always
• 5:21
  is us. Recently, it feels like it's almost becoming too much of a
• 5:26
  cliche. Stop talking about but let's talk about it in the bigger picture.
• 5:31
  So, um, what kind of impact do you think it has on the
• 5:38
  economy at large? And do you anticipate AI and what do you what do
• 5:44
  you anticipate AI having in terms of an impact over say the next five years
• 5:48
  on the larger scope of the economy. Yeah, you know, I think,
• 5:54
  you know, this is one of the few instances where the hype might
• 5:57
  actually match the reality. Yeah, you know where where I'm seeing in the
• 6:00
  work I'm doing with clients in some great research that Eric Brnolfson at Stanford is
• 6:06
  doing. And Eric's been really vocal and I think rightly so that the way
• 6:11
  we think about impact, largely in our rather outdated ways of counting and measuring
• 6:16
  productivity, don't really capture how the how AI has been democratized. You know,
• 6:23
  if you look at even going back to you know, Facebook and Twitter
• 6:29
  and to social media, and you know the impact of social media and productivity
• 6:32
  is completely ignored and discounted. And I think Eric estimates that just the technologies
• 6:39
  that are freely available to all of us have probably added about a percentage point
• 6:44
  to GDP that goes unaccountable UM. And I think we've got similar situation tim
• 6:50
  with with what we're seeing with with generative AI UM and particularly as we see
• 6:57
  how UM you know, there's some interesting experiment it's emerging where you know,
• 7:00
  you've got a control group that doesn't have generative AI and and and you know,
• 7:04
  and a pilot where they've used generative AI and we're seeing in some instances
• 7:10
  forty to fifty percent improvements in productivity because what we're doing is democratizing knowledge and
• 7:15
  creativity. Right. And the interesting thing is this is just you know,
• 7:20
  GPT right and text generation. But if you think of the broader implications of
• 7:27
  these large language models, you know, think of Dali two on image generation,
• 7:30
  Codex on coding, you know, Megami barked on drug discovery. UM.
• 7:36
  You know, the impact is just multiplying exponentially. I think that's what's
• 7:43
  really interesting about this next generation of AI UM. You know, it's it
• 7:47
  does need its guardrails, as as many have talked about, but I think
• 7:51
  it has just tremendous potential. So I m I would maybe challenge a little
• 7:59
  bit on whether increasing knowledge. So let's let's talk a little bit about it.
• 8:01
  Because over the years, you know, when Google came out, I
• 8:07
  heard a lot of people say, I don't need to remember things anymore.
• 8:11
  I don't need to memorize things. I can just go do a search,
• 8:13
  and that then transitioned into you know what, I don't even need to know
• 8:18
  things anymore. I can go ask And I think that the chat GPTs have
• 8:24
  a you know, I don't need the knowledge. Chat gpt has the knowledge.
• 8:28
  I just need to know what kind of questions to ask and I will
• 8:33
  be informed on what the answers are. So I'm curious where you see the
• 8:37
  correlation or the relationship between knowledge and skill and the implications to the enterprise.
• 8:48
  More specifically, you know, this this attainment of knowledge and skill as a
• 8:54
  necessary component to get a job and employment. What's the what do you see
• 8:58
  the correl between knowledge and skill in the implications that AI brings to it.
• 9:03
  Yeah, that's such a fabulous question, because you know, I think what
• 9:09
  we've done is we've democratized knowledge, right, But what we haven't done is
• 9:13
  democratize logic and critical thinking. And I think that's absolutely essential. And Tim,
• 9:20
  and I think, you know, I'm really glad you brought this question
• 9:22
  up because one of the issues, as we know, with these large language
• 9:26
  models is, unlike other types of machine learning, there is no logic embedded
• 9:31
  into these large language models. Right. We're essentially sort of looking at basically
• 9:35
  next best guess, right, next best you know, word, image,
• 9:39
  graphic, where other you know, likely connections based on this massive volume of
• 9:46
  data. And I do think, you know, I forget, forgive me,
• 9:50
  I'm drawing a blank on the name of the poet, but there's a
• 9:56
  quote that sticks in the back of my head. Is very famous English poet.
• 10:00
  He talked about, you know, in the quest for for knowledge,
• 10:05
  what wisdom have we lost? And the quest for um information? What knowledge
• 10:11
  have we lost? And the quest for data? You know, what real
• 10:13
  information have we lost? It'll come to me, I'm sure, probably after
• 10:16
  the show, but but we'll put it in the show next. Excellent Elliott,
• 10:22
  Elliott, thank you, thank you. Oh yes, yes it was
• 10:24
  to yours Elliott. And ironically enough I googled it, you know, did
• 10:30
  you remember that? But actually, you know, in general, I have
• 10:35
  to say, you know, talking about the question of hype and aim,
• 10:41
  I've never in my life been um sort of slightly nauseated and impressed by first
• 10:48
  using a technology as I was first using chat GPT and first experimenting with it,
• 10:54
  and I kept giving it more and more complex instructions. And it's that
• 10:58
  moment when if it took five minutes, I feel like the impact would be
• 11:03
  different if it took you know, like it would just feel like it's gone
• 11:05
  in there, it's figuring it out. But it's the immediacy, isn't it.
• 11:09
  And it's the immediacy of talking to somebody you know that you know.
• 11:13
  Obviously, individuals don't have that wealth of information to access on a dime like
• 11:18
  that, but they are able to filter information in an immediate way and respond
• 11:22
  to you. And we think of that as consciousness, and we're not at
• 11:26
  all used to encountering that same immediacy in an external, seemingly non conscious entity.
• 11:31
  I find it quite quite remarkable, and instantly it's changed the way I
• 11:35
  work and other people I work with as well. So the sense that it's
• 11:39
  going to have a big impact is is undeniable. So I want to I
• 11:43
  want to pick up again actually on all of these trends raving in fact,
• 11:48
  starting with a democratization of work, and what they seem to add up to
• 11:56
  for the worker, for the employee, as we say, is a portrait
• 12:01
  of a of a future or imminent professional space, which is which is very
• 12:05
  very impersonal arguably, you know, the sentiment that has traditionally kind of bound
• 12:11
  us to teams and colleagues, to organizations which more recently we kind of formalize
• 12:16
  as culture of his culture. I mean, that would seem to be if
• 12:22
  we look at how these trends are developing and where they're going, a fast
• 12:26
  growing atavism, you know, something that's just completely outmoded in the modern working
• 12:31
  world. Does that? You know? First of all, I suppose the
• 12:35
  question is to what extent is that a viable trend for us as emotional sentimental
• 12:41
  beings? And and second, oh no, I guess first of all,
• 12:45
  if the question is is that accurate? Second of all, is that a
• 12:48
  good thing? Is that a viable thing? And third of all, is
• 12:52
  there is there anything that can rub against it? You know? Yeah,
• 12:56
  yeah, that's it's it's a really good, really good question. You know,
• 13:01
  I do think as we introduce these technologies, they are fundamentally altering culture,
• 13:09
  right because if you think of our traditional cultural artifacts, and I'll even
• 13:13
  go back to you know, forget that technology. But you know, to
• 13:20
  quote another sort of futurists, Alvin Toffler, you know, in nineteen seventy
• 13:26
  said we would all be living in electronic cottages. And in the United States
• 13:31
  from nineteen seventy to twenty twenty, we got to a whopping fifty percent sorry,
• 13:35
  we got to whopping six percent of a whole work being done full time
• 13:39
  remote and overnight, we got to fifty six percent right in May of twenty
• 13:43
  twenty. But to me, the thing that you know, this starts with
• 13:46
  again going back to the democratization of work and the decoupling, if you will,
• 13:50
  from the artifacts that have traditionally shaped culture and work. Culture in the
• 13:56
  office was probably the most defined, most visible feature of that culture, right
• 14:01
  because we all came to the office between nine to five. We hang out
• 14:07
  of the water cooler and Tim and I would talk about our kids or you
• 14:09
  know, football games, etc. So that that culture started and ended from
• 14:16
  between nine to five, and it existed within the walls of the enterprise,
• 14:20
  and then we just you know, open it up right, so it now
• 14:24
  permeates to work, permeates every facet of life. I do think we are
• 14:28
  going to start to see we are starting to see a reordering and a new
• 14:33
  set of artifacts come about and redefining what that culture looks like. You know
• 14:39
  that I mentioned PwC is training all of their employees on chat GPT. Soon
• 14:46
  Chat GPT in that organization will become a critical part of their culture because it'll
• 14:52
  be part of the shared set of experiences of everyone who is a part of
• 14:56
  that enterprise. But I do think we need to be incredibly intentional because you
• 15:03
  know, we as a species sort of cling on to those experiences right to
• 15:09
  define what binds us together, you know the part you know, when it
• 15:13
  was the office, we were forced together back the space. Now what are
• 15:16
  the new artifacts, right, those shared experiences, those those common connections to
• 15:22
  mission and purpose, Which is another reason why you see more and more companies
• 15:26
  indexing to mission and purpose because they know that that's what connects you know,
• 15:31
  these disparate interests who may not bump into each other very often, if at
• 15:35
  all. You know, two a common mission and purpose, two a single
• 15:39
  culture. And what about if I can just insert a question here. I
• 15:48
  assume you're optimistic, raving about how our economy is globally and nationally adapt to
• 15:54
  this new technology and the opportunities that are at present very unforeseeable that arise from
• 16:00
  it. Um Is that is that accurate? And can you be any more
• 16:04
  concrete about your your your cause for medium time optimism because in general, I
• 16:10
  think the discourse around ai IS is a pessimistic one, yes, and the
• 16:15
  sense of an old world making way for a new one makes people feel very
• 16:19
  anxious and unsteady, reasonably enough, And I was wondering what your taken about
• 16:23
  overall? Yeah, you know, I I would say, my I'm cautiously
• 16:29
  optimistic. Um even your course now now now I'm worried. I see the
• 16:36
  opportunity, you know, I see the prize ahead of us, tom um,
• 16:41
  But I worry about, you know, our propensity to sacrifice long term
• 16:48
  sustainability for short term profit and gain. And you know I've seen just in
• 16:53
  the work I deal with the organizations some some not so intelligent decisions around you
• 16:59
  know, just on a micro level, right, this is incredibly micro.
• 17:03
  You know, smaller firms rushing to sort of replace their interns replace seventy to
• 17:08
  eighty percent of the work of their junior level talent with GPT, you know,
• 17:12
  with GPT, right, particularly advertising the legal side of things. And
• 17:17
  yes, you know, yeah, it's going to save you a little bit
• 17:18
  of money in the near term. You can never replace an an entire job,
• 17:23
  as we know with a particularly with a single technology. But the longer
• 17:27
  term consequence is you know, who's going to be your manager or supervisor next
• 17:33
  next year, who's going to be the leader of the firm the year after?
• 17:37
  Because it goes back to something Tim said right the question, which again
• 17:41
  I loved, it's it's not just knowledge and information. What you're building in
• 17:45
  most of our businesses with these apprenticeship models is logic and discernment and critical thinking.
• 17:52
  And that to me is just where, you know, one small example
• 17:56
  of where you know, we sacrifice the long term for the for the near
• 17:59
  term of yeah, and I suppose there's another dynamic a friend of mine pointed
• 18:03
  out to me, which is, you know, capitalism depends on having people
• 18:08
  to sell its products, right Like if you if you if capitalism would really
• 18:15
  kind of commit a kind of economic suicide if it, if it, if
• 18:18
  it kind of excavated its own workforce for technology because who then is the market?
• 18:26
  But maybe this points I mean, I'm interested in your reflections upon that
• 18:30
  potential trend medium term or havn't and whether that actually just points towards universal basic
• 18:38
  kingcarment and systems like that, or we actually see or you actually anticipate a
• 18:45
  kind of capitalism to have some enduring creative vitality and with it the creation of
• 18:51
  new opportunities and economies. So my personal sense is, you know, and
• 18:55
  I actually wrote a paper on this and laid out the two sort of ends
• 18:59
  of the continue that you've just alluded to. One where we sort of are
• 19:03
  in a post consumer society where we need some form of universal basic and come
• 19:07
  to sustain that, you know, that notion of consumerism. Or do we
• 19:12
  actually end up in an era where there is sufficient opportunity created for us to
• 19:18
  keep upskilling and reskilling, to keep moving humanity up that knowledge you know in
• 19:25
  knowledge curve, if you will as we substitute, you know, more and
• 19:29
  more of the things we've traditionally done. And I'm I'm optimistic on that front,
• 19:34
  Tom and Tim that we will in fact, there is in fact emerging
• 19:37
  opportunity. What I'm perhaps uncertain about is our two things. One is will
• 19:45
  we afford ourselves the time to upskill and reskill? And it's that pace of
• 19:52
  change that I worry about because we all know that that pace has increased exponentially
• 19:56
  over the course of the last one hundred years, and you know, are
• 20:00
  we approaching the point where we just can't adjust fast enough? I'm not sure,
• 20:06
  you know a question, And that that's one worry. The other is
• 20:08
  I don't think we will completely sort of you know, do away with automation
• 20:14
  doing everything in every single industry. But I do think that certain industries are
• 20:18
  going to go through significant change and enabling to my first point about time,
• 20:25
  enabling those transitions for people from the industries that are heavily affected into the emerging
• 20:32
  industries, which may be quite different, I think is going to be really
• 20:36
  important. Yeah, I really like the I like that concept of advancing the
• 20:44
  human race to upskill everybody, right, and we as a as a as
• 20:49
  a human race are now advancing ourselves and this gives us the abilities. So
• 20:53
  I think there's going to be a hybrid of some of the notions you've talked
• 20:56
  about. One is that upskilling of humanity and society, but also making sure
• 21:03
  that those that don't have access to either the technology or the corporations, um,
• 21:10
  don't get left behind because there's already there's already a gap of people being
• 21:14
  left behind, right. So I think we've got to have a we've got
• 21:17
  to have a bit of a bit of both worlds in that regardless. Um,
• 21:22
  So, Robin kind of the wrap up question. We started our conversation
• 21:26
  or we you know, early on we talked about the economic impacts, and
• 21:32
  we talked about the implications to employers and and business in general down to the
• 21:37
  individuals. Being a technologist myself, what should technologists be focusing on today to
• 21:47
  stay ahead of these trends and the tendencies pushed forward by AI? Where where
• 21:52
  should folks be focusing on if you're technology minded, other than just learning how
• 21:56
  to use chatgeepint. Yeah, you know, really really good good question there.
• 22:02
  Um. You know, I think Timids, there's two things I would
• 22:04
  say. One is all of us technologists or otherwise need to have this mindset
• 22:11
  of just perpetual reinvention um. And I think that's what's going to stand us
• 22:15
  in good stead. As you know, the next generation of AI emerges as
• 22:22
  as other technologies emerge. Right, So how do we keep reinventing ourselves?
• 22:26
  Do we? You know, are we curious enough? We are? We
• 22:30
  do we give ourselves the space to learn and develop, you know, in
• 22:34
  the flow of work, I say to all of my clients, we've got
• 22:38
  to get out of these inane conversations about work life balance because we've lost that
• 22:41
  war. We instead actually need to be much more intentional about designing in space
• 22:48
  for each of us individually and collectively, so that we have the space for
• 22:52
  both learning as well as well being in the flow of work. Um and
• 22:57
  so, so I think that notion of space for reinventions important. I think
• 23:02
  more tactically, tim, You know, we've talked for a long time about
• 23:07
  leaders who are T shaped, right or pie shaped, people who are deep
• 23:11
  in one area and then maybe see connections broadly. I think that's still important.
• 23:15
  But I was introduced to a concept by a colleague of mine around this
• 23:19
  notion of the V shaped learner, And that's the learner who may start off
• 23:25
  in a narrow domain, but she's able to sort of build out at the
• 23:29
  margins into adjacent domains. And I think that's going to be equally important.
• 23:34
  I don't think it's one or the other, but I think the talent who
• 23:37
  can sort of build deep technical capability in adjacent areas is going to be increasingly
• 23:44
  critical as well. Good stuff. Yeah, absolutely, And I'm going to
• 23:51
  put in a final, final curveball for your rabbit. It's not a curveball
• 23:53
  at all. You're going to be all over this one. But you mentioned
• 23:56
  at the top of the discussion being aware talking about sustainability and and I'm fascinated
• 24:03
  to hear how that enters this confluence of new technologies and trends, and how
• 24:08
  you see that as a as a as a as a as a catalyst for
• 24:14
  further change, and what that change looks like when you add this environmental factor
• 24:18
  to be overall Pickle. Yeah, that is a good, good question,
• 24:22
  Tom. I think you know, when I when I think of sustainability and
• 24:26
  the age and the technological implications, I think two thoughts sort of come about.
• 24:33
  You know something Tim said a second ago, and I sort of trace
• 24:36
  this back over the last four industrial revolutions. The Second Industrial Revolution, we
• 24:41
  actually reduced an equality dramatically, right, because there was lots of an equality.
• 24:47
  You had highly skilled artisans and then everyone else who was you know,
• 24:52
  tending to pigs and things like that. And as we introduced automation, we
• 24:56
  brought more people into the game. You know, you could go work at
• 25:00
  a factory and earn a lot more than you might on the farm, etc.
• 25:04
  And then in subsequent iterations, we actually drove more inequality because we increase
• 25:11
  the premiums on people who were intelligent, people who had access to technology.
• 25:15
  And I think what we're seeing with this next generation of generative AI, again,
• 25:19
  this is where I'm really optimistic, is the potential for that democratization of
• 25:23
  access to bring more people into the game. You know, you don't need
• 25:27
  to have spent thirty years in graphic design to be able to create something that
• 25:33
  someone who's maybe got five years of that logic in that critical thinking might be
• 25:37
  able to create with Dali two. So I think that's to me one dimension
• 25:41
  of where that sustainability perhaps gets reinjected into society Tom, because I think the
• 25:48
  path we were on was not a sustainable one. You know, we were
• 25:53
  that growing inequality you know, as we all know, was not sustainable and
• 25:57
  was going to lead to It's the stuff that makes for revolutions right, as
• 26:03
  we've seen many times over history. But this is where not to put everything
• 26:07
  on chat GPT and suggest that it's going to be the salvation of the species.
• 26:11
  But I do think in some in some instances, it can help us.
• 26:15
  I think that's one piece. I think the other is going to be
• 26:21
  how we handle the transition to net zero. And I am truly optimistic that
• 26:26
  some of these technologies are going to be helpful in creating that next generation of
• 26:33
  technology solutions, that next generation of skills that are going to require power technologies
• 26:40
  like carbon capture, sequestration, etc. Which I think are going to be
• 26:44
  increasingly important to undo the damage that we've already done. So you know,
• 26:48
  a couple of perspectives, different angles on sustainability. If helpful, very helpful,
• 26:55
  And it's a fantastic chat raving and wonderful to have you back on the
• 26:59
  show. Before you go, please tell the listeners about your brilliant new book
• 27:03
  and where they can find it and where they can find you. Yeah.
• 27:06
  Absolutely so. The last book that came out was called Work Without Jobs.
• 27:10
  It's my fourth. You can get there is a website www dot work without
• 27:17
  Jobs dot com, and my website is Robin Jason Thason dot com and I
• 27:21
  would love to have everyone follow me on Twitter and LinkedIn. Absolutely fantastic rabbing.
• 27:26
  Thanks so much for coming back on the Deck Show. Hope to see
• 27:27
  you again. Thanks Tom, Thanks Tim, Thanks Ravan. To make sure
• 27:33
  that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in Apple podcasts,
• 27:37
  Spotify your favorite podcast player, and if you're listening on Apple podcasts, make
• 27:41
  sure to leave a rating at the show. Just have the number of stars
• 27:45
  you think the podcast deserves. If you'd like to learn more about how next
• 27:48
  think can help me improve your digital employee experience, head over to nextthink dot
• 27:52
  com. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,