Latest / How To Protect The Ocean / She is talking about Oceanography on TikTok and has 98K followers!

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She is talking about Oceanography on TikTok and has 98K followers! · How To Protect The Ocean

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  There are so many graduate students that are doing amazing things and people in
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  science that are doing amazing things with science, not only on their
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  graduate work or their scientific work, but also their side
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  hustles or what they like to, if they really get involved in science and
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  they have a little bit of a knack or a skill to develop something, they
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  can develop something. And today we're actually gonna be talking to Paige
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  Hull, who just finished her PhD in
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  coastal eutrophication from UCLA in
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  the US, She's also known for a little page
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  that she has on TikTok and it's at
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  98,900 followers right now and it continues to grow. There are some
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  videos that she talks about different stories around
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  like surfing waves and sort of the impacts of the Olympics on
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  surfing waves. She also talks about the Resolute Desk
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  in the White House and how that has an oceanographic tie to
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  it. She does these stories in just amazing ways. And I
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  wanted to have her on the podcast so badly. And she actually reached out to be
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  on the podcast, which I was so happy. So we have her on today. We're
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  going to talk to Paige about science communication and about her PhD work
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  and just science in general. So let's start
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  the show. Hey,
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  everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the
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  ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, what you can do to live for a
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  better ocean by taking action. And on today's episode,
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  we're going to be talking about speaking up for the ocean, because we have
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  Paige Hull, who's on the podcast today, talking about
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  not only her PhD work that she did on coastal eutrophication and
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  how she makes that really exciting to hear about, but also about
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  her science TikTok. her science communication tiktok efforts which
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  are absolutely amazing if you want to go to her
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  tiktok it's at lil l-i-l ocean
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  page p-a-i-g-e you
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  can check it out she you're not going to be alone in watching her videos
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  but she has this incredible knack to tell stories. And
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  it's out of this world. I was a huge fan of her
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  before she reached out to me to be able to be on this. She goes,
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  hey, do you want me to come on the podcast? I can talk about this and this. And I was like, yes, absolutely.
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  Yes, I'm a huge fan of yours. So I'm looking, I'm really looking forward to it, which was,
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  it was an amazing podcast. We talked for over an hour about
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  her PhD, about her science communication efforts. And
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  it was absolutely riveting for me anyway. So
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  I hope it is for you. She's a super interesting
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  individual. She tells stories on this podcast, like
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  she tells stories on TikTok, and it was an
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  absolute pleasure to have her on. And a lot of the times, when you hear
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  people do a science communication effort, or
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  dedicate their time to doing science communication, you don't really hear about the
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  nuts and bolts of how they put videos together, or
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  how they put a tweet together, or how they put a strategy together. You
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  know, Paige goes in depth into that, and I think it's really
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  interesting. On the other side of that, on the science side of
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  it, where she actually does science, she talks a lot about, you
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  know, how she grew up wanting to do a PhD. It ran
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  in her family. I've never heard of that, but it ran in the family with multiple
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  people in their family. had PhDs and so she always thought she was going
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  to do a PhD and then she got interested at the age of four or five in
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  oceanography which is insane if you think about it and
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  then now here she is just finishing a PhD in coastal eutrophication
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  oceanography and just being super interested in that
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  that that stuff that we don't really hear about all the time.
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  Oceanography is not as common as we think. When we hear about someone
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  studying the ocean, we automatically go to marine biology. She's like, nope, oceanography
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  is for me, and that's what I want to do. And she talks about her journey to
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  there, how she chose the project that she did, and why it
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  was so important. And then, of course, the science communication aspect. So there's so
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  much to get out of this episode. You're probably going to want to listen to it more than
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  once, and I don't blame you. But here's the
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  interview with Dr. Paige Hull. Enjoy, and I will talk to you after.
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  Hey Paige, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are
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  you ready to talk about all things oceans and ocean storytelling?
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  I feel that I feel that because I have to admit like I
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  do a little research before I have people come on And I did
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  a lot of research on your tiktok page and you probably
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  tell the best stories That I ever like I'm a huge fan. So
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  I'm very excited when you when you reach out you're like, hey Andrew Do you want me to come on your
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  podcast? I can talk about my phd I could talk about so i'm like absolutely like
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  this is awesome and we found out we're both fans of each other so
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  that's it's gonna be a lot of fun exactly so there's gonna
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  be a lot of conversation but I you know I want my audience to get
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  to know you today and to get to know what you did for your PhD how you
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  got to the point where are you doing a PhD and what you
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  want to do it on and then even into the science communication how
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  that you kind of fell into that and just realize you're like hey people
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  like the way I tell stories okay I like So we'll see
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  how that goes. But before we get into all that, Paige, why don't you just let people know who
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  Yes. Well, thank you for the kind intro, Andrew. So
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  my name is Paige, and I am an oceanographer.
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  I have a PhD in atmospheric and oceanic science.
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  And I have more recently become known as a little
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  ocean page or Ph.D. pagey on tick tock. And
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  I've had a relatively successful ocean tick tock
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  for the last year or so. And I'm really just enjoying all
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  the science communication and spreading the wonder that I've always
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  had for the ocean. But now getting random
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  strangers on the Internet to learn along with me, it's been such a
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  That's awesome because I am, as you know, I'm a huge proponent of
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  getting people involved in the ocean, people who aren't like studying the
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  ocean full time or marine biologists or coastal scientists
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  or oceanographers and conservationists who may not
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  know much about the ocean and, you know, want to to
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  be entertained at the same time as learning and I think you
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  do a perfect job in balancing those two and it's
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  not an easy thing to do and we definitely appreciate it.
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  What got you into the ocean in the first place? You say you've always had a curiosity. When
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  do you remember that first time you were like, ooh, I like this
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  So I was I was always one of those I
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  have a frankly annoying story Which is that I just
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  knew from the jump. I was like four or five years old
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  and I saw a We had a VHS tape of
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  Robert Ballard. Dr. Ballard finding the battleship Titanic
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  and No, no, no, the battleship Bismarck, the same scientist
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  who found the Titanic originally, but this was a
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  VHS tape about him finding the battleship Bismarck. And
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  he, prolific oceanographer, he used all these
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  different tools and now a very outdated technology
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  to find the battleship. But I watched
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  this VHS tape until it couldn't play anymore. I
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  was just so... Even at that age, like four and five years old? At that age. Wow.
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  I was sold. I was like, you can explore the ocean as
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  a job? That's a thing that you can do?
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  I'm sold. And it helped
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  that my grandmother lived in San Diego,
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  and we would go down to visit her, and we'd spend
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  our Saturdays just at the beach, sand
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  on every single part of my body, in the water. I
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  was always like a water baby. And I just remember wondering
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  The waves keep coming. And every time I
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  come here, there's waves. Yeah. what is
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  this place? So that, like, imagination
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  was just like, from the jump. And from there on out,
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  it was like, kind of a done deal. So yeah,
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  from there, it really progressed. I, it helped
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  that I was good at math and science and physics and
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  chemistry. I was always, my family's like
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  pretty scientific in background. I'm actually like, one
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  Yes. Uh, which, uh, is,
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  is an advantage in the sense that I was like, well, if my, if my dad can
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  get one, if my grandpa can get one. If my great grandmother
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  had one, you know, like, why not me? It seemed like a very, like,
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  not like it was an expectation, but almost in a sense seemed very accessible. Because
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  I was like, well, they all did it. So yeah, why can't, why
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  not me? Um, but yeah, I knew I was
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  interested in oceanography, not marine biology. I find marine biology fascinating,
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  but. I like can't see blood. So the thought
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  of cutting any animal open was like a no-go for me. Um, but
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  yeah, I, I understood that like, oh, it's understanding
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  the physics of the ocean, understanding the chemistry of
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  the water. And yeah, it was just like,
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  okay, that's what I gotta do. I gotta be good at math. I gotta be good at chemistry.
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  I gotta be good at physics. And then it also helped,
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  too, that my dad works, makes software for
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  a mapping company. So maps are
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  very prolific in our household. And I
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  loved maps, maps of the ocean floor, maps of countries
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  and interesting... Even like the older maps, right, where the
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  geography changes and the sort of the morphology changes as
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  you go through it. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It
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  was, it was pretty, yeah, it was kind of straightforward for
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  me from the jump. I was like, okay, I love the ocean. I'm good at school. I'm
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  just going to keep riding this until the wheels fall off.
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  I love it. Now, were you one of those students, say,
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  in high school, like, you know, it's a math-intensive subject
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  matter, even just to get into science, to get into university, right? You
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  gotta take your physics, you gotta take your chemistry, you gotta take your
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  calculus and functions and whatever that
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  might be. Were you a student that naturally, like,
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  you were able to learn it pretty quickly, or did you have to, like, work your
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  There's no wrong answer by the way on this. Yes and no. I'd
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  be lying if I say I wasn't just good at math. I've always been good at math. But
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  I think when I got into high school and in college, university
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  really was a kick in the butt my first year because in high school I
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  knew the exact amount of time I could put in and I would get
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  a result and it would work and then I just assumed that would
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  transfer to a university and I did my undergraduate at
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  UC Santa Barbara and which is like
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  a pretty rigorous school and I Going through
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  that it was like calc to my
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  my first quarter. I Failed I got
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  a D. I've never gotten anything lower than a B in my entire
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  life. I was like And I
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  got I got I was so upset I think I got a
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  C in chemistry and I was like, oh it's a good student like First
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  Oh my gosh, but I remember being so upset and
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  my mom was like My mom came into my room and was
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  like, so you just think because you
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  worked hard, you're entitled to an A. Is that what you think? Like,
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  welcome to the real world, Paige. But
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  I mean, she was right. She was right. And she's like, it's
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  not about you failing this class. It's like, what are you going to do now? You
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  got to pick yourself up, like brush your knees off, like,
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  like deal with your bruised ego later. What are you going to
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  do now? And I think normalizing, like failing
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  so many people fail so many times before they get it
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  right. I think But like perception that you need
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  to be perfect at everything will cripple you. You don't
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  achieve anything because you'll just be scared. But yeah,
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  I mean, I failed. I failed to math classes in
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  college and undergrad. And I retook them
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  and I got A's the second time. Yeah, I did
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  OK in physics. I got
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  through it. I took like the engineering level of physics. So
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  like the hella hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  But also too, I've always known that I had a good
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  storytelling ability and I've always known that what I
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  lack, even if I'm not an A plus student, my
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  enthusiasm counteracts that and we can't all be
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  the same. There can be someone that's
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  better than me at research but can't tell the story, so how valuable is
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  the research that they did if no one's going to know about
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  Or that even tracks with when you go
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  for a grant. It's a storytelling exercise, right?
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  When you apply for a grant. So you may be able to do the research and kick
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  butt in the research, but if you can't get the grant to pay for the research, you're
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  not going to be able to do the research in the first place, right? So that comes
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  So during that part, that's a tough time. And a lot of students go through that. That's
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  just not you. I went through that. A lot of people, we get humbled
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  in university. It doesn't matter the year. There's always one course
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  or two courses that really help. For me, it was invertebrate zoology one
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  and two. Our lab exam
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  was like you had to identify the animal in a microscope, and then
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  you answered a question on it. If you got the animal wrong, you you
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  you were marked like six out of ten you know to get perfect right
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  so and it was never an animal that you've seen before it
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  was always an animal that you hadn't seen before but you had to go through the process and
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  identify the kingdom and the phylum and all that kind of stuff
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  super super difficult but like For me, I learned to
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  be resilient. How did that teach you to sort
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  of, because look, doing a PhD is harder than
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  undergrad, right? So how did that teach you to fight back
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  and just be like, no, I'm gonna scrape and crawl and do what I can to
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  take everything that I know and to believe in myself to be able to do
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  Yeah, that's the key word there is belief. It's
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  such a fake it till you make it type of deal because you realize that
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  You realize when you're in university that, you
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  know, it goes two ways. Sometimes it's like, everyone's smarter than me. Everyone
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  has all this knowledge. But then you also do realize, well,
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  everyone had to learn it. once you know everyone was
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  a beginner at some point and when
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  you get to a certain level of academics a lot of
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  it I do think is grit like obviously you need a
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  certain amount of like you know ability to retain knowledge
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  but at a certain point I definitely realized as
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  an undergrad I was like I think this is just about just
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  pushing just pushing onwards ask
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  and also to like asking for
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  help asking and putting yourself in the situations that
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  you didn't think you deserved. Why not try? Yep. Like as
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  an undergrad, I took graduate level classes my last
• 15:49
  year, because I was like, you know what, why not? Like, yeah, let me just ask
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  these professors and see if I have the chops. To get through a
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  couple graduate level classes, and if I can do that, then why can't
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  this? Like, why can't this? But
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  I started and part of it, yeah, is you got to be a little bit
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  cocky to be like, yeah. Why not me? I
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  got this. Why not? Yeah, I got this. Whatever. And
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  what's the worst that's going to happen, right? My
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  worst case scenario is really not that bad in the grand scheme of things. So
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  I might as well shoot my shot. But
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  I feel like a lot of once
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  I realized I just needed to ask and put myself out there
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  and continue to bite off seemingly more than
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  I could chew, I was rewarded. It
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  was like, Oh, you want to do an undergraduate thesis
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  with some esteemed professor. Great. He's excited
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  to work with an undergrad or like you want to intern for
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  this company in Denmark. Cool.
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  They sit there actually interested in you because you asked
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  like so much of opportunities like
• 17:02
  in this podcast, like, You just got to ask, you
• 17:05
  know, you got to, you don't, you don't wait for life to happen to you. You got to like go
• 17:08
  after it. And so in terms of a PhD as well, where that
• 17:12
  is a five year exercise in getting kicked in the teeth, like
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  it is so humbling, but at the same
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  time, like, you just got to ask, you just got to keep like, you're
• 17:24
  there. You found your way there. That's not
• 17:28
  for nothing. Like, Keep trying, keep asking. And
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  a lot of a PhD too, which I
• 17:35
  didn't realize until maybe halfway through, is
• 17:40
  it's proving that you're a scientist. It's like making yourself into
• 17:43
  a scientist and proving you're a scientist. It's not about being right. Because
• 17:47
  so much of science is getting things wrong. And if
• 17:51
  you're so afraid to get things wrong that you don't do
• 17:54
  anything a little bit risky or do any interesting research or
• 17:58
  come up with any interesting ideas, then you're
• 18:01
  kind of failing your Ph.D. because you're not there to get
• 18:04
  it right. It's not a class where there's A, B, C, D. It's
• 18:08
  an exercise in making yourself into a scientist. And
• 18:11
  so that is a totally different
• 18:16
  experience. But it gets back to like the grit, like just ask,
• 18:19
  just keep just push. Even if you don't think you deserve to be there, like
• 18:25
  Well, here's case in point. When you reached out to ask to
• 18:28
  be on the podcast, You were on my mind to
• 18:31
  ask to be on the, like, I was going to ask you to be, I just never
• 18:34
  did. I'll be like, she's at 98,000 followers on TikTok. There's
• 18:38
  no way she's going to, she must get messages upon messages upon
• 18:42
  messages. If I DM her, is she going to even see the message? Right.
• 18:46
  And then we find out we're fans of each other and you're just like, oh
• 18:49
  my God, like, yeah, we're just people. And
• 18:53
  yes, of course I want you on the podcast. And, you know, and it's just a
• 18:56
  matter of asking and putting yourself out there to just be like, yeah, Might as
• 18:59
  well, you know. But that's
• 19:02
  such a hard thing to get over, I think, especially as a young undergrad
• 19:06
  student. I think it's one of those things where, even
• 19:10
  in the science, like we all have friends we've probably roomed with or
• 19:13
  been in a house with during the undergrad where they're in business
• 19:17
  and they don't start class until one o'clock in the afternoon. And
• 19:21
  meanwhile, I started when I was at 830 every semester
• 19:25
  of my undergrad career. And I went, because there's labs that happen in
• 19:28
  the afternoon that are all afternoon. And as much fun
• 19:31
  as they are, it's a hard day. It's a hard day's work. And it's a hard
• 19:35
  program to get through, no matter what you're going through, science related.
• 19:39
  It's a hard program to get through. And so during
• 19:42
  that time, you still have you
• 19:45
  know, the want to do, you know, oceanography and all
• 19:49
  that type of work. What was going through your mind during
• 19:53
  your undergrad? Like, how did your mind change or did your
• 19:57
  mind change in terms of what you wanted to do afterwards,
• 20:00
  whether it be work or even PhD or what you wanted to
• 20:07
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great question. So
• 20:10
  I was so gung ho oceanography that
• 20:15
  I thought my, this was my, I think this
• 20:18
  was my freshman year, freshman or sophomore year. I was like, you know what? If
• 20:22
  I want to do oceanography, I should talk to grad students who are
• 20:25
  doing it right now and see, A, what they have
• 20:29
  to tell me, B, if it seems like they're having a good time. So
• 20:33
  I reached out, I sent Lord
• 20:37
  knows how many emails, probably like 30 or
• 20:41
  40 emails. So I went on to, and UC Santa Barbara is like
• 20:44
  a mecca for oceanography. So
• 20:48
  I looked on all of the different departments' websites,
• 20:52
  like the geography department, the earth science department, and I was
• 20:56
  majoring in earth science and geography, so I already knew some of
• 20:59
  those grad students. They had a special ocean
• 21:03
  science graduate school. I found everyone who was
• 21:06
  doing research that I was remotely interested in. I
• 21:09
  sent them an email. I was like, hey, I'm an undergrad. Your research
• 21:13
  sounds cool. Can we sit down for coffee? Can I come by your
• 21:16
  office? And eventually what that ended up with was
• 21:21
  I got opportunity to do research with
• 21:25
  one graduate student who is towards the marine biology and
• 21:28
  like fishery side. And I helped him out with his research
• 21:31
  for like almost a full year. And that was cool because I
• 21:35
  got to see he was in year two, three of his PhD. And
• 21:38
  I got to see what, what that kind of phase was like. Um,
• 21:42
  And then another God student responded to me, Alexa,
• 21:46
  who kind of remained my mentor to this
• 21:50
  day. And she was an absolute
• 21:53
  dynamo. I couldn't believe she was even talking to me. But she
• 21:56
  was like, your email was endearing. And I
• 22:00
  wanted to help you out. Yeah, you
• 22:03
  seemed really enthusiastic. And so through those
• 22:07
  relationships and just staying
• 22:11
  really in tune with the faculty. I like
• 22:15
  loved, we had some great professors and I just went to office hours
• 22:19
  every single opportunity I could. I, even
• 22:22
  if I didn't have questions, I just wanted to talk to them and be like, yeah, how'd you get
• 22:25
  into oceanography? How this, and actually my, I
• 22:29
  think this was my junior year. I think this was my junior year. Robert
• 22:33
  Ballard, Bob Ballard came to talk to the earth
• 22:36
  science faculty at UCSB. He's actually UCSB alum.
• 22:40
  And I got an email about it. This was like supposed to be a faculty meeting.
• 22:44
  I don't know how I got the email, but I was like, Oh, Oh,
• 22:47
  my gosh, drop everything. I went home to go
• 22:51
  get my one of his books, Eternal Darkness, which
• 22:55
  is about and I brought it and it's a faculty meeting
• 22:59
  around a round table. I see. Thankfully, I
• 23:02
  knew the professors are like, Hey, what are you doing here? And I
• 23:05
  was like, after the
• 23:09
  meeting, I like went up to Dr. Bauer
• 23:14
  I'm being cool right now, but I'm such a huge fan. This is
• 23:22
  And can we take a picture? So through my
• 23:26
  undergrad, I was really like, emboldened. I
• 23:29
  was like, yeah, I can do this. Yeah, I can
• 23:33
  like it is worth my time and it
• 23:36
  helped that I had I had friends out obviously
• 23:40
  outside and Like UC Santa Barbara is
• 23:43
  like known to be a party school. So, you know, you get a little
• 23:46
  bit of everything There's like great academics, but it's also Sunny
• 23:50
  and 70 every single day and you're on the beach. So, you know
• 23:54
  at times it was like, oh man, I wish I didn't have Two
• 23:58
  tough majors to do, but at the same time, it was
• 24:02
  just like, so cool. And the instructors
• 24:06
  were good. And I could, I could see I was making progress towards
• 24:09
  my goal. Like I could see, okay, like
• 24:13
  people are talking to me. I was like presented a
• 24:16
  conference, like all those little things that made me
• 24:20
  affirmed in me that all of my efforts were not for nothing. It
• 24:24
  would be different, I think, if I was just taking classes and I was like,
• 24:27
  what am I doing all this work for? But I respond well
• 24:31
  to external affirmation. So
• 24:38
  But did you think also, too, like there's the affirmation part, but it's also
• 24:41
  it's that It's almost that motivation when
• 24:44
  you start to volunteer with somebody to do their, help them do their graduate work.
• 24:48
  It's like, oh, this is really cool stuff. Like this is
• 24:51
  amazing stuff. Like even the student you said, it was a bit more marine biology. It
• 24:55
  probably confirmed you're like, yeah, I'm probably not into the whole marine biology thing,
• 24:59
  but there's all this other stuff. Did you get to do some field work with this
• 25:07
  Like it just motivates you to want to do it that much more, right?
• 25:12
  Yes, yes, absolutely. We were collecting crabs.
• 25:16
  We, like, went into the field. We went on, like, boats to
• 25:19
  go get crabs. I was like, this is so cool!
• 25:23
  And then we had crab tanks, and we would dissect
• 25:27
  the crabs, which was so disgusting. But still,
• 25:30
  I was like, whoa, this is so neat! Yeah, at least there's
• 25:34
  no blood. At least there's no blood. Yeah, true, true, true, true. I saw
• 25:37
  more crab carapaces than I would like to have. But
• 25:41
  still, it was like, I like this whole process. Yeah,
• 25:44
  it's interesting. Yeah, doing this. And
• 25:48
  yeah, like, no, I felt like no time was wasted. So
• 25:51
  I'm thankful I went through all of it. But it's, it's not for the faint of
• 25:55
  heart. It is like, very time consuming if you really pursue it.
• 25:59
  Well, and I think that's What a lot of people don't realize when they
• 26:02
  go into undergraduate and even graduate work is
• 26:06
  it's supposed to take up a lot of time. You're not
• 26:09
  just there to go through the motions, get the marks, get the classes, and then graduate.
• 26:14
  University can offer so much more. College can offer so much more.
• 26:17
  And it's up to you to take advantage of that. I find in
• 26:21
  my experience anyway, and this is not everybody's experience, but it sounds like it's
• 26:24
  quite like your experience where Professors
• 26:28
  are very open to conversation. If you show passion, you show you want to
• 26:31
  help out or you want to do something, you want to volunteer, they will have you
• 26:35
  in their labs if they have room. If there are people who
• 26:38
  want to go out in the field, they're always looking for undergraduates to help graduate students.
• 26:42
  And I think that really helps. And I find, like with my experience, the
• 26:46
  professor had like a little community in their lab. And it was like you felt
• 26:49
  part of that. That almost became a bit of your friend group, like
• 26:52
  your professional friend group. And I still have those friendships to
• 26:56
  this day. And now we're like, sometimes we're colleagues
• 27:00
  when we work and stuff. And so it's a kind of a cool
• 27:03
  experience, but you have to kind of get out
• 27:06
  of the... It's true. You gotta get out of the party and
• 27:09
  social side all the time to really immerse
• 27:13
  yourself into the university atmosphere and the ability to
• 27:17
  do research or fieldwork or extra
• 27:20
  skill sets or whatever that might be to be
• 27:26
  It's hard to have that perspective at that age, too, to
• 27:29
  know the opportunity that you have. For sure. When you're 18 years
• 27:33
  old, you're just like, this is the next thing to do. It's hard to know that,
• 27:36
  like, This is your opportunity that you'll
• 27:42
  Well, there are a lot of distractions at university. There's a lot to do.
• 27:46
  You can get involved in clubs. You can get a job at
• 27:49
  a bar, and that becomes your life. It's hard.
• 27:53
  There's a lot to, especially in the US,
• 27:57
  when university sports are such a big thing. You
• 28:03
  And there's the independent aspect. I was in third grade. I rode my
• 28:09
  Yeah, and sometimes that could be opportunities for
• 28:13
  you, right? Like that could lead to other opportunities, but other times it could be
• 28:16
  a distraction to what you want to do if your group
• 28:19
  is not necessarily focused on the same thing. And so you really
• 28:23
  have to work a little extra to get to that, which you did, which is awesome.
• 28:26
  But at what point where you're like, I'm going to do a PhD like
• 28:30
  you had your family who were probably like, yeah, you could do it like you're on track
• 28:33
  to do that. At what point did you be like, were you like, I want to do a
• 28:36
  PhD, but not only doing a PhD, but I want to do it in
• 28:43
  Yes. So yeah, the PhD thing was always kind of set for
• 28:47
  me because I was really in high school when
• 28:51
  i thought about okay i'm in the ocean what specific jobs
• 28:54
  can i get and i looked into. Actually
• 28:58
  being an oceanography was that entail. There are very few
• 29:02
  oceanographer jobs where you don't have a PhD because
• 29:06
  you're doing research. Oceanography is
• 29:09
  not cheap. They need very well educated people
• 29:13
  to do it. Um, so I knew
• 29:17
  from the jump, I was like, okay, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to get a PhD. Um,
• 29:21
  But coastal eutrophication came to me kind
• 29:25
  of my sophomore junior year of college um,
• 29:29
  I was taking a biogeochemistry class
• 29:34
  um biology geology and chemistry all put together
• 29:37
  Um, and it was a marine biogeochemistry class. It's
• 29:41
  taught by david valentine at ucsp shout out.
• 29:44
  He's an incredible biogeochemist Yes, he is.
• 29:51
  I just remember the nutrient cycles were
• 29:54
  so fascinating to me and how nutrients
• 29:59
  interact so tightly with primary productivity and
• 30:03
  the biological pump. Then
• 30:06
  it was like, oh my gosh, we are really altering the
• 30:10
  nutrient cycle of the ocean in a way that we never have
• 30:13
  before. Never. Like, because if you even think about,
• 30:18
  you know, the Earth has been around for billions of years, there
• 30:22
  have been times where the ocean has been incredibly warm, and the
• 30:25
  physics has changed and the weather is different. But we've,
• 30:29
  the eutrophication, the influx of human
• 30:32
  nutrients is unprecedented. We've never seen anything
• 30:36
  like this and once I realized how interconnected it
• 30:39
  all was and how you could be
• 30:43
  a coastal ocean biogeochemist and focus specifically on oxygen
• 30:46
  or focus specifically on nitrogen or you know there's
• 30:50
  like a million different angles and I also think
• 30:53
  too Um, I love research for the sake
• 30:57
  of research, but to be frank, I want to do something that's
• 31:00
  like directly in touch with humanity and
• 31:04
  how we interact with the ocean. Um, because the
• 31:07
  ocean is a resource for us. It's also like maintaining
• 31:11
  our planet. And I find the interchange really
• 31:15
  interesting. Like, okay, if we do need to
• 31:18
  dispose of wastewater and we don't live in a perfect world where there's no
• 31:22
  wastewater. what's the safest way in which we can dispose
• 31:25
  of it in the ocean because we're not in a perfect world. And
• 31:29
  so all of those kinds of questions really fascinated me. So
• 31:32
  that was about my junior year of college.
• 31:36
  And then my senior year I did kind of a eutrophication style,
• 31:40
  um, thesis and I
• 31:43
  was totally enthralled. I was also enthralled with
• 31:48
  harmful algal blooms, right? that had, and
• 31:52
  actually I was exposed to those when I was doing research
• 31:56
  with the graduate student who was taking crabs, because
• 31:59
  some of the crabs had damelic acid, which is prevalent
• 32:03
  on the west coast of the United States from harmful algal blooms. And I
• 32:06
  was like, what? Like this crab is poisoned? And
• 32:09
  he's like, yep, you wouldn't eat this crab. And that
• 32:12
  also to me is just like, wow, like it's also interconnected. And
• 32:16
  so it was around then that I was like, all right, it's coastal eutrophication. I'm
• 32:22
  That's awesome. For your PhD, did
• 32:26
  you do it at UCLA? Is that where you did your PhD? Yes. Okay, so
• 32:29
  you moved down the coastline a little bit to UCLA.
• 32:38
  Yeah, so my advisor was Daniele Bianchi. When
• 32:43
  I was looking at graduate schools, I
• 32:47
  looked at all the major oceanographic schools And
• 32:50
  I was like, OK, who's doing coastal eutrophication? It wasn't
• 32:54
  until kind of at the end of my search that
• 32:58
  I was talking to a scientist at Scripps, Clarissa Anderson, and
• 33:03
  she was really involved in harmful algal bloom research. And I
• 33:06
  was like, I think I'm interested in how human nutrients affect
• 33:10
  harmful algal blooms. And she was like, I don't have any money,
• 33:13
  but I have a colleague who's really smart, who just got a grant. You
• 33:16
  should go talk to him. And so, yeah, I was
• 33:20
  crazy too, because I worked so hard on my applications for like five other
• 33:24
  schools. But last minute, he's like, yeah, I applied to UCLA. And
• 33:27
  I was like, Okay, cool. Um, you
• 33:31
  know, and so I ended up there and it was a great fit. And I
• 33:35
  liked that his work was modeling based. So
• 33:39
  using a big coupled physical biogeochemical model
• 33:43
  to make estimates instead of in-situ sampling,
• 33:47
  which has so many merits, but that is really
• 33:50
  expensive, really time-consuming. You're at the whim of
• 33:55
  the ocean, too. It's an unforgiving environment. Southern
• 34:01
  California, it, you would be shocked, you know? So,
• 34:05
  um, I was, and I love the, like, and
• 34:08
  this really gets into like my geography background, but I love that the
• 34:12
  spatial resolution of a model is everything.
• 34:16
  A model is inherently false because it is a model. But when
• 34:20
  you're dealing with ocean observations, you are at the whim of where can
• 34:23
  you take your ship? Where is, where is a
• 34:27
  pier? Where is a buoy? And you have to guess for
• 34:30
  everything else. Whereas like the model really appealed to me. So, um,
• 34:34
  yeah, once I was in, I was so happy to be there. He ended up
• 34:38
  actually ended up that another student he had coming in
• 34:42
  was like a better fit for the harmful algal bloom research. And
• 34:45
  so I just moved into general eutrophication in
• 34:49
  coastal Southern California bite, um, that region of
• 34:53
  the ocean around Southern California. And I focused, at
• 34:56
  the beginning of my PhD, I specifically focused on wastewater
• 35:01
  treatment policies. So yeah, in Southern
• 35:04
  California, about a billion gallons of wastewater are
• 35:07
  pumped back out into the ocean every single day. It's a lot of
• 35:10
  wastewater. That affects things. Yes, exactly,
• 35:15
  exactly. And it's treated, it's all treated wastewater. So
• 35:18
  it's treated to a secondary degree, meaning that all the organics, all
• 35:22
  of like the poop and urine and all nasty stuff, it's turned back
• 35:25
  into inorganic nitrate and ammonium.
• 35:30
  But still, when you pump that much nitrate and
• 35:34
  ammonium into the ocean, it's going to have major
• 35:37
  impacts on phytoplankton and primary production. And so
• 35:41
  my research focused on some hypothetical scenarios
• 35:45
  of different water treatment. And as
• 35:48
  we start to recycle more wastewater, how is that going
• 35:54
  And especially as the population increases, too. Yes. Right.
• 36:00
  Twenty three million people and counting. So very
• 36:04
  reliant. And the beaches of Southern California are
• 36:08
  visited more than the beaches of the entire rest of the United States combined.
• 36:15
  So it's like, how do we keep these beaches healthy? But
• 36:19
  also, we do really rely on, where else
• 36:22
  are we going to dispose of this wastewater? So I love
• 36:26
  that human ocean, those questions, I
• 36:30
  love. And now, especially with offshore wind
• 36:34
  energy becoming very prevalent all over, I
• 36:37
  love the spatial question of, Where
• 36:41
  could you do this? Where would this be smartest? Where is
• 36:45
  safe for marine species? These questions, I
• 36:49
  love to think about all the different angles. So it was
• 36:54
  Especially as the complexity increases, like the ocean users increase, like
• 36:57
  you mentioned, bringing in offshore wind power. But
• 37:00
  you also have fishers. You also have beach goers.
• 37:05
  You also have cruise ships and shipping in
• 37:08
  general, just trans-shipping in general. Then you have rivers.
• 37:12
  I think is it the Tijuana River that empties out into
• 37:18
  Yeah, right. And that's a river that has a lot
• 37:21
  of stuff in it, let's just say. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 37:25
  It's a big unknown. Yeah. And it's a big
• 37:28
  water area, but there's a lot of people on the coast, and
• 37:33
  that has to be accounted for. So that's a
• 37:36
  really interesting thing. But not a lot of people think about it. So when you talk about
• 37:40
  your PhD, to even your family who are full of
• 37:43
  PhDs, right? Like when you talk about that, do
• 37:47
  they relate to eutrophication? Even friends and
• 37:50
  stuff like that, do they relate to that? Because when you see people
• 37:54
  studying oceanography, like a lot
• 37:57
  of oceanographers, deep sea biology these days, and with the whole
• 38:01
  deep sea mining and stuff, that becomes popular. Eutrophication always
• 38:04
  seems like, water quality always seems, even though it's super important, it's
• 38:07
  always at the lower end. Of of the scale when
• 38:11
  like when it comes to interest until like a massive algal
• 38:16
  Yeah Yeah, exactly exactly and I think
• 38:20
  with Like having grown up so I grew up about an
• 38:24
  hour and a half inland from LA like closer towards Palm
• 38:27
  Springs so Even if, you
• 38:31
  know, you don't go to the beach all the time, people know when it's
• 38:34
  like, Oh, I heard there was a red tide. Like, Oh,
• 38:37
  I heard there was, you know, and I do think or
• 38:41
  something. Yeah. Yes. People are very
• 38:45
  interested. I think it is. And you
• 38:48
  know, with my research, I moved on to understanding
• 38:52
  how eutrophication impacts kelp and people have so
• 38:56
  many questions. They're like, yeah, I saw a bunch of kelp here and
• 38:59
  why isn't kelp growing here anymore? And so
• 39:03
  I will say, and especially in the sense that
• 39:07
  water treatment contributes so
• 39:11
  much nutrients to the ocean. And it's so important for
• 39:15
  California. We're in South California like in a drought half the
• 39:18
  time. So It is really important to
• 39:21
  like have these conversations about what are we doing with our water? Where is
• 39:25
  it going? People want to know about desalination. Um,
• 39:29
  so I will say my, I'm grateful that my research is
• 39:33
  usually really well-received to the
• 39:36
  point where at my graduation party, I had to,
• 39:39
  I was like, I gave a presentation on my research
• 39:43
  to all my friends and family. And then I said, please, can we talk about anything
• 39:46
  else through us? I love the
• 39:50
  questions, but I have gotten so many the last, like, five
• 39:53
  years. But yeah, I will say it's
• 39:57
  well-received, especially to, as in
• 40:00
  Southern California, it is very progressive with their water treatment standards.
• 40:05
  It definitely goes far. The Ocean
• 40:08
  Protection Council, OPC, is part of California
• 40:12
  State Water Board. They're very aggressive in
• 40:16
  treating their water, and it has paid off. So all
• 40:20
  very interesting and again it's just like it all relates
• 40:23
  because people care. If they don't
• 40:27
  care about wastewater, they care about fish. Yeah.
• 40:30
  And the quality of the water impacts where the fish are. And
• 40:35
  everyone wants to know why there is stinky kelp on their beach or
• 40:38
  why there isn't kelp where it used to be. You know, it's like all of these questions.
• 40:42
  And with sharks in Southern California, they're like, what's the deal with the sharks? You
• 40:45
  know, and that I know less about, but I do know about the fish. And I know
• 40:49
  the fish are related to the primary production, which is
• 40:52
  really the waste water. So it all kind of comes back together. So
• 40:56
  usually people are like, what, like, tell me more.
• 41:03
  Well, and that takes me to your communication, like
• 41:07
  a side hustle or whatever it might be, people
• 41:11
  asking you questions and your ability to answer
• 41:14
  them in a way that's interesting for people. Mm-hmm.
• 41:19
  How was that like, how did you develop that skill set? Is that just sort
• 41:22
  of one of those things? You're like, I just enjoy telling stories and this
• 41:26
  is just the way it comes out as I do it yeah,
• 41:31
  I think the writing was on the wall. Looking back, for
• 41:35
  example, I had science projects in elementary and middle
• 41:38
  school and I would pretend to
• 41:42
  be an oceanographer on TV or I would
• 41:45
  be a TV meteorologist. I always
• 41:49
  loved to communicate science. I
• 41:52
  found it so interesting and I Always did kind of
• 41:55
  have a knack for it. Um, it wasn't until it
• 41:59
  was around kovat right when kovat was happening I had
• 42:03
  I just started my PhD and I was
• 42:06
  going to teach a class a general education class
• 42:10
  at UCLA on climate change and this was like
• 42:14
  a big class, like 400 students,
• 42:19
  and most of them non-majors. So most of them like com
• 42:22
  majors, psych majors. And frankly,
• 42:25
  most of them go into, and I don't know if you have
• 42:29
  any experience teaching a GE, but most students go into an
• 42:33
  oceanography class or a climate change class not knowing
• 42:37
  that it's going to be a lot of math and physics. Right. Right.
• 42:40
  I'm going to learn about polar bears and whales. And it's
• 42:44
  like, I Wanted to do a really good
• 42:47
  job teaching yeah, and so I I started
• 43:01
  a lecture series for my friends. And
• 43:04
  this was the beginning of COVID where everyone was like, doing virtual happy
• 43:08
  hours. And so I was like, Hey, friends,
• 43:12
  like, I'm going to teach you about climate change, I'm going to have one
• 43:16
  lecture a week, it's gonna be 30 or 45 minutes can be informal,
• 43:19
  and I'm gonna Yeah. So
• 43:22
  I practiced teaching first to
• 43:26
  a general audience because I knew it's so hard
• 43:30
  when you are deep in the science to remember that most people are
• 43:33
  not like I, it is the
• 43:36
  bane of my existence trying to get other scientists and
• 43:40
  faculty, you know, remember that try and
• 43:43
  remember a time where you didn't know anything about this and now explain
• 43:46
  it. Yeah. Now explain it from square one. And so with
• 43:50
  all of my friends from like every different, you
• 43:53
  know, walk of life, I would give these lectures. And
• 43:57
  that was super enjoyable. So that then morphed into,
• 44:01
  um, that actually was really fun. And then after I
• 44:04
  was done with my lectures, all of my friends each gave a lecture on something from
• 44:08
  their industry, which was, um, but
• 44:12
  from that, uh, lecture series, I made
• 44:15
  a newsletter. And so I would do a newsletter every
• 44:19
  like month or so related to climate change,
• 44:22
  oceanographic stuff. Um, I went on
• 44:26
  two oceanographic cruises, one with
• 44:30
  the go ship program, which does repeat
• 44:33
  cruises doing carbon, uh, measurements.
• 44:37
  So they go on a couple of different routes all
• 44:41
  around the world. And every like 10 years they
• 44:44
  measure all the carbonate chemistry. and see how carbon is
• 44:48
  changing in the ocean because it's sequestering carbon dioxide. So I
• 44:52
  did that and I did a lot of newsletters when I was
• 44:55
  on that cruise because people had so many questions. I was like, great, let me just do a
• 44:58
  bunch of newsletters while I'm at sea. And I did the same thing. I had
• 45:01
  another cruise with NOAA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
• 45:05
  That one was more mapping focused. Again,
• 45:08
  I did a bunch of newsletters while I was doing that. But
• 45:12
  all the while, I was still teaching that climate change
• 45:15
  class at UCLA. And now in
• 45:18
  person, but I had so many students tell me like,
• 45:22
  page, you should start a tick tock. And I
• 45:25
  was like, I wasn't even on tick tock. Right? I
• 45:29
  was like, I don't know. I think I'm too old. Yeah. I
• 45:33
  didn't even know who's on tick tock. I figured it was like all dancing. And
• 45:38
  I have a girlfriend who
• 45:42
  I love so dearly. She makes running content. She
• 45:45
  was collegiate runner, and we became best friends.
• 45:49
  And I told her, I was like, Well, actually, I'm thinking about starting a YouTube channel.
• 45:53
  And she was like, Do not do that. She's like, I'm
• 45:57
  on YouTube, YouTube, and I'm on Tick Tock. And let me tell you, no
• 46:01
  one's gonna see your stuff on YouTube for years, right? You should make
• 46:04
  a Tick Tock. It's a long game. Yeah, she's
• 46:08
  like, if you want people to pay attention right now, you should make a Tick Tock. And
• 46:11
  I was like, Okay, so It was born from
• 46:14
  there. It's because she did it and then I
• 46:19
  still wasn't, I still couldn't believe that ocean,
• 46:24
  I figured oceanography was oversaturated on TikTok. I
• 46:27
  was like, there's gotta be great ocean people
• 46:31
  out there. I wasn't on it, so I didn't know who was doing, but
• 46:34
  I figured, I was like, ah, so I started a channel actually making some
• 46:38
  like undergrad college tips and
• 46:43
  like PhD tips in terms of like, How do you apply to a
• 46:46
  PhD program? How do you find a good advisor? What kind of workload
• 46:49
  can you expect? So I was doing that
• 46:53
  for about I don't know, half a year
• 46:58
  And I had like a modest following, I think at like 20,000, 10,000 followers
• 47:02
  or something, which is still, I know, I know we talk about TikTok being
• 47:12
  20,000. It was, it was like cool that a lot of people felt like
• 47:15
  they really trusted me. Um, Bob, I
• 47:18
  think the blonde Bob is very endearing. I think people inherently
• 47:22
  are like, she's not a threat. I
• 47:27
  honestly believe that. I've had this haircut my whole life. I'm
• 47:30
  like, I think this has some power. But
• 47:34
  yeah, and then I was still doing, but I was doing
• 47:37
  the separate newsletters about oceanography
• 47:41
  stuff and then it was one of my dad's, one of my dad's like
• 47:45
  old frat buddies, who I all consider to be uncles, he
• 47:48
  sent me an email and he was like, What is the Atlantic
• 47:52
  Mariana overturning circulation? And what is going on?
• 47:56
  And I did a whole newsletter on it. And I was like,
• 47:59
  let me just do the newsletters are super informal. And
• 48:02
  so I was like, let me also just film a tick tock. And that tick tock, like blew up, I
• 48:05
  got like a couple million views. And I was like, Oh, okay.
• 48:09
  Do you want to hear about it? Yeah, I guess I
• 48:13
  have the right expertise. And from there, it was, um, so
• 48:17
  fun, so fun to put the videos together. And it
• 48:20
  still, it just blew my mind every time that I was like, how
• 48:24
  are hundreds of thousands or millions of people watching this? I'm so glad
• 48:28
  they are. Um, but yeah, it
• 48:31
  was just like, it just fit very well. And
• 48:35
  again, a lot of it I think goes back to that teaching experience that
• 48:38
  I had at the university level where it's like, how
• 48:42
  do I get these college freshmen that are looking at me like
• 48:46
  they want to die when I just told them how much physics they need to
• 48:49
  learn, you know, like these intense equations to understand the
• 48:54
  Earth. And I'm like, no, stay with me. Like, this is
• 48:58
  actually really cool. I promise we can get through this.
• 49:02
  Let me make an analogy. And
• 49:05
  from there on out, it was like, yeah, it was it was
• 49:08
  a good fit. And honestly, it really
• 49:12
  blew up the last year of my Ph.D., my final
• 49:16
  year, and it provided such a nice reprieve.
• 49:21
  At times, because you're right, you're focused on writing at that point.
• 49:26
  It's just stressful and you know
• 49:30
  it's going to get done, but you don't feel like you can do it. And,
• 49:33
  you know, every once in a while I'd be like, what if I make
• 49:37
  a TikTok about thermal expansion of water? OK, let
• 49:41
  me do that, you know, and I'd like take that, you know, take an hour to
• 49:44
  like dally a little bit, but it ended up being like
• 49:48
  very motivating and fun for me to do. So yeah,
• 49:57
  With TikTok, it's almost like a style that people have, right?
• 50:01
  Some people will have dancing videos. That's probably when
• 50:04
  first people think about TikTok, they think of dancing videos. But
• 50:10
  there's others who, there's political TikTok, there's science
• 50:13
  TikTok, there's book talk, I think they call it. There's all
• 50:16
  these different categories. And everybody has, within
• 50:20
  each category, they have their own style. And lately, like
• 50:24
  if I go back to your last probably like 30 videos, it's
• 50:27
  very much like you need to learn about this. Like
• 50:30
  you need to know, have you heard of this? And
• 50:34
  it's like that nice hook where you're just like, oh no, I haven't heard of this.
• 50:37
  I need to know about this. And then you go into a lot of detail in
• 50:41
  your stories. Like useful information that
• 50:46
  really makes the story interesting. How
• 50:49
  long did it take for you to realize like, this
• 50:53
  is like a fun formula for you to to like use,
• 50:57
  but also a winning formula to in terms of
• 51:00
  like getting people to view and watch and enjoy
• 51:05
  Yeah, that, um, it really hit from
• 51:10
  the first, like from I made a tick tock about,
• 51:13
  so there was research released on the Atlantic meridional
• 51:17
  overturning circulation, and that the flow
• 51:21
  of warm water from the Gulf Stream up to the
• 51:24
  Arctic region and how it subducts underneath the
• 51:30
  North Atlantic. And a report came out about how
• 51:34
  it's potentially shutting down, how it's very concerning. And
• 51:38
  I was like, OK, let me make a
• 51:42
  TikTok on this. If I say Atlantic Meridional
• 51:46
  Overturning Circulation, swipe immediately. I was like, OK,
• 51:50
  no. So I forget what I
• 51:53
  took a screenshot of the headline that I had seen that
• 51:57
  it was on like CNN or something. It was like a very dramatic headline.
• 52:01
  It was like Ocean Circulation May Shut Down and
• 52:05
  da da da da da. And I started to tick tock like
• 52:09
  It's a green screen and my face was on it. And
• 52:13
  which is like, the way it started was a lot of people's initial
• 52:16
  reaction, which would be just like, Oh, no, like,
• 52:20
  I guess I waited a second. Yeah, so I
• 52:24
  waited a second for people to be able to read the headline. Yeah, which
• 52:27
  is crazy. And like, you know, if it worked for
• 52:31
  the article? Yeah, it'll work for my tick tock, right? Like people
• 52:34
  will be invested. So I read that I was like, Oh,
• 52:37
  no. And then I was like, Here's what this means. Let's
• 52:42
  break down why this is an alarming thing. So
• 52:47
  that format worked great. And my
• 52:52
  whole style is talk a little bit, green screen,
• 52:56
  point to figure, talk, point, show. I've
• 53:00
  always been a very visual learner, but also too,
• 53:05
  again, with teaching, I find that as little text
• 53:10
  as possible. Pictures, like
• 53:14
  tell a visual story. TikTok is a visual app.
• 53:18
  So I knew that obviously what I had, what
• 53:21
  I said had to be engaging, but also I wanted to
• 53:25
  be able to be like, Look at me, now look at this, now
• 53:28
  look at me. And I didn't know at the time it was a
• 53:31
  winning formula, but after I've grown
• 53:35
  in popularity, people are like, oh, did you know? Yeah, it's so smart
• 53:38
  of you to show your face because people like to see your face online
• 53:42
  because it makes them feel like they know you better. And it's like all
• 53:46
  these things that I was just doing, just giving
• 53:49
  these sentence, sentence, sentence. Changing
• 53:54
  the pictures. I didn't realize what I was doing was a winning thing
• 53:58
  to do until I'd made like a couple Good
• 54:02
  videos, which I enjoyed and I was like, oh This
• 54:06
  seems to be working. Um, but I will say yeah,
• 54:09
  the hardest part of my videos is the hook is
• 54:13
  like, yeah where do I begin because I find
• 54:17
  everything interesting, but there's so many
• 54:21
  crazy fascinating stories about the ocean and the atmosphere
• 54:25
  and our climate that I could tell. But the
• 54:29
  hook on TikTok, it's like you lose people in the first three
• 54:32
  Well, people are just scrolling with their thumb, right? Like, if that, if
• 54:36
  that. It's almost like half a second. They don't like what they see. If something
• 54:39
  on the page doesn't capture them. You know like
• 54:42
  I've watched videos on just even YouTube shorts where people are like if
• 54:46
  you zoom in right away then people start to you know that that catches the
• 54:49
  eye if you Walk into the scene that catches the eye
• 54:53
  or something pops up that catches the eye Something really has
• 54:56
  to catch because if not, they're just I'm off to the next video without
• 55:00
  thinking of the rest, you know Yeah, so that's that's the art because
• 55:03
  once I start talking I can tell a lot of stories but
• 55:10
  Most successful videos the most successful is that I figured out the
• 55:13
  hook I like knew the way in and it played my cards, right?
• 55:19
  No not easy to do at all Like
• 55:23
  and when you start to look at some of your videos like you said to
• 55:26
  look and you're like I've got some good views on
• 55:29
  here like there, you know, yeah, I'm looking at them now and
• 55:33
  your average you're like averaging a At
• 55:36
  least, you know, in the thousands, sometimes multiple thousands,
• 55:40
  like I'm looking at 45, you know, 16, 70. And every
• 55:45
  once in a while, you just start 2.5 million. You know,
• 55:49
  you have one to 7.2 million. You know, it's
• 55:53
  insane to think about. How people
• 55:57
  like how many people are watching these videos, I
• 56:04
  And you know the funny thing is, and I tell this to my friends all the time, I've now,
• 56:08
  I'm now like whatever, a published author. I have like a couple first
• 56:12
  author papers for my PhD. No one is
• 56:16
  going to read my dissertation cover to cover, other than me. Millions
• 56:21
  of people will watch my TikTok. And
• 56:25
  for all the academics that are hesitant with
• 56:29
  science communication, it's like, OK, I understand it's hard
• 56:32
  teaching old dog new tricks, but I'm going
• 56:37
  to get maybe 1,000 eyes on my best
• 56:40
  paper at the end of the year, maybe. If it
• 56:43
  blows up, but I just like talk
• 56:48
  to four million people about Atlantic
• 56:51
  marine overturning circulation, which I never
• 56:55
  in my wildest dreams would have thought. And I think also the
• 56:58
  cool thing about it too, that I definitely don't take for granted is
• 57:02
  that it's reaching so many people that do
• 57:05
  not know about the ocean. Like it's so easy to
• 57:09
  forget. I grew up in Southern California. I've always loved the ocean.
• 57:12
  I'm in a scientific family, but most of
• 57:16
  our world, most of the United States does not live. I mean,
• 57:19
  well, there's statistics about most of the world. It's like 30% of the
• 57:22
  world population lives on a coastline, but you know, but
• 57:25
  most of us do not know the ocean though. Yeah, exactly like
• 57:29
  the educational background and I think a lot of scientists Assume
• 57:33
  prior knowledge or like they've been in their bubble
• 57:37
  for so long even when it comes to like climate change communication Like
• 57:41
  obviously it affects everybody but let's not forget a lot of
• 57:44
  people first of all haven't been in school for a long time Yeah, so
• 57:47
  you're trying to tell them about Earth's like retaining
• 57:51
  its long wave radiation. Stop right there. You lost
• 57:55
  95% of the population when you said that. Um, so
• 57:59
  when I see like these views on my videos, I'm like, Oh,
• 58:03
  this is so cool. And my goal too,
• 58:06
  is not just to like have people walk, like, obviously it's
• 58:09
  great to have people watch and people like ocean people will
• 58:14
  continue to drink the Kool-Aid. But what really gets me is when people are like, Not
• 58:18
  ocean people, you know, they grew up there like in Indiana or
• 58:21
  there some landlocked country and they're like This
• 58:25
  is so interesting. I never knew this about the ocean that to me
• 58:29
  is like That's really cool because I could
• 58:33
  yeah, I could I the people that drink the Kool-Aid drink the Kool-Aid and that's great but
• 58:37
  that's the crazy thing about TikTok that's like I could reach
• 58:40
  a random person in random country that just
• 58:44
  learned something about the ocean and maybe that sparked a little something in
• 58:47
  them to just be more vigilant of their climate,
• 58:51
  their environment, the ocean around them like that is
• 58:56
  And it is. It's really interesting, especially like it's an opportunity for
• 59:00
  education. But again, you do it in a very entertaining way. You
• 59:03
  know, you feel I feel good after I listen to these
• 59:07
  these episodes, you know, like this. And I know like you're like, oh, that's
• 59:10
  what I want people to do. But, you know, when you talk about oceans, a lot
• 59:13
  of the times there's a lot of doom and gloom when we talk about oceans. Right.
• 59:17
  Like, you know, you can see the big documentaries that have been, you
• 59:20
  know, Emmy award winning documentaries. There's a lot of doom and gloom. I
• 59:24
  mean, I think David Attenborough had the
• 59:27
  world crying when he put out Blue Planet 2 and that
• 59:31
  poor sperm whale calf died of plastic pollution
• 59:39
  What are you doing to us? But
• 59:43
  when you are able to connect things that
• 59:46
  are interesting to people. We were talking about this before we pressed record. I was just watching
• 59:51
  your video on the Resolute Desk in the White House.
• 59:55
  never would have thought that had an ocean connection to
• 59:58
  it. And it's not directly with the ocean, but it's an important
• 1:00:02
  part of history, not only American history, but Canadian history,
• 1:00:06
  of people trying to find that Northwest Passage. And you get your
• 1:00:09
  map fix in there, and you talk about a different map, and you
• 1:00:13
  have those. I think it's really good. I think what you're able
• 1:00:16
  to do, and this is what Randy Olson has been talking about for years. He's
• 1:00:19
  a big science communication guy in marine science.
• 1:00:23
  And it's all about getting people's emotions involved. Getting not
• 1:00:27
  just necessarily the bad emotions, like the sad emotions, but getting the curiosity
• 1:00:31
  emotion. You got some good humor in there too. You
• 1:00:34
  got some funny bits that you do as well. But
• 1:00:39
  it's really great that you're able to Communicate that
• 1:00:42
  and it's not just straight-up facts. It's here's facts
• 1:00:46
  in an interesting way Did you ever think about this or did you know about
• 1:00:49
  this? And I've seen some creators do that, too there's another
• 1:00:53
  creator who does a lot about like the world wars and like historical wars
• 1:00:57
  and he has this way of like Really getting into
• 1:01:01
  it and he always starts did you know about this and did you
• 1:01:04
  know about it? It's just like and people like oh, this is really really
• 1:01:07
  interesting. I Yeah, yeah, it's cool to
• 1:01:11
  do that kind of stuff, but there's a lot of work involved in
• 1:01:14
  putting these videos together You can't do this in like five minutes Give
• 1:01:19
  me an average. I know it probably varies. But yeah,
• 1:01:22
  how long do you spend? With these is this a
• 1:01:27
  Yeah, so This is a great question. So I'll
• 1:01:31
  take you through the whole process because now I have like a whole way
• 1:01:35
  of doing it. Um, I will Either
• 1:01:39
  think of a question or someone will ask me a question. For
• 1:01:42
  example, like the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation.
• 1:01:46
  Someone will be like, what the heck is that? So I'll
• 1:01:49
  think of a question or someone will ask a question in the comments. I had
• 1:01:54
  a really popular one about what
• 1:01:58
  is the bottom of the sea floor? How deep is the sand? And I
• 1:02:01
  was like, oh, actually, it's not sand. It's dead
• 1:02:04
  organic matter. question and
• 1:02:09
  then I'll put together like the key. I'll break
• 1:02:12
  it down in terms of like what science, what physics and
• 1:02:16
  chemistry does a person need to know to appreciate how
• 1:02:20
  complex this is. Maybe they need to know about
• 1:02:24
  how organic matter decomposes. Maybe they need to know about
• 1:02:29
  how there's no light in the ocean. So I think about like, what are all the key
• 1:02:32
  facts that go into truly understanding this?
• 1:02:36
  Um, I have to find some decent figures that
• 1:02:40
  doesn't take too long. Um, but I'll
• 1:02:44
  make one sheet that has all the
• 1:02:47
  pictures that I would like to show and
• 1:02:51
  I'll just screenshot all the pictures. And then I think about, How
• 1:02:54
  am I going to say this? But what takes a long time is thinking of the hook, for
• 1:02:58
  sure. Yeah, and then
• 1:03:01
  filming it never takes more than 30 minutes, 20 minutes,
• 1:03:06
  30 minutes. I will say, I have a huge
• 1:03:09
  depth of prior knowledge, so there's very little that I really
• 1:03:13
  need to research when it comes to true science questions. I
• 1:03:17
  do love maritime history and naval history, and
• 1:03:21
  I think it's ocean exploration. I think that's a really important and cool
• 1:03:24
  way to bring people into oceanography is to
• 1:03:28
  help us all appreciate how little we
• 1:03:31
  know about the ocean, how long we have tried to
• 1:03:34
  learn about it. So those take
• 1:03:38
  a little bit more time, but I live and
• 1:03:41
  breathe. I just finished a book about cod. I'm now
• 1:03:44
  reading a book about how the US government in
• 1:03:48
  the Cold War invested billions into oceanography. I'm always
• 1:03:52
  reading things about the oceans to build up the
• 1:03:55
  knowledge base and to find like, oh, I should tell people about this.
• 1:03:59
  Yeah. So from start to finish, I'll
• 1:04:02
  have a couple ideas brewing for
• 1:04:07
  couple weeks at a time. But truthfully, the best
• 1:04:10
  ideas and the best videos do come to me in a flash where
• 1:04:14
  I'm like, Oh, uh, I need to tell the story
• 1:04:18
  right now. For example, I've always been fascinated with
• 1:04:21
  how Robert Ballard found the Titanic. Such a
• 1:04:24
  cool story. Most people don't know that he was like actually looking for
• 1:04:28
  remnants of nuclear submarines that had been lost from cold war. I
• 1:04:32
  think that's such a cool story. It's always been in my head, but then like
• 1:04:36
  I didn't know how do I bring people into that? And it
• 1:04:40
  was the day before Thanksgiving and I was with my boyfriend's
• 1:04:43
  family and they're asking me all these like great questions about oceanography
• 1:04:47
  and stuff. And then it just came to me. I was like,
• 1:04:52
  Oh, I should just like do this dumb hook where
• 1:04:55
  I say that you should talk about this at Thanksgiving. Like I was
• 1:04:58
  like, This is what you're going to talk about this Thanksgiving. And
• 1:05:01
  that video got like three million views because people
• 1:05:05
  were like, what? And then I'm like, the
• 1:05:09
  Titanic sank, right? And so like, yeah,
• 1:05:13
  but cover to cover, it'll take anywhere between like,
• 1:05:17
  if it's a brilliant flash, it'll take an hour. If it's
• 1:05:23
  Yeah, I can just imagine that Thanksgiving one just like
• 1:05:27
  so yeah, you know the Titanic sank Did you guys know this like and
• 1:05:30
  then I'll go through the story That's I feel like that's one of
• 1:05:33
  the things that you just like that comes out of nowhere Like why would people want
• 1:05:38
  Yeah, I'll stay Because if I started if
• 1:05:41
  I started my videos being like let me tell you the history of
• 1:05:46
  The discovery of the Titanic like yeah, I'm gonna keep the history nerds,
• 1:05:53
  Like, how am I gonna swing this around? Yeah, and
• 1:05:56
  do so in an exciting way too. Getting back to your point about my
• 1:06:00
  attitude and my videos, I think I find
• 1:06:05
  the gloom and doom, although definitely
• 1:06:09
  warranted sometimes, right? It is heavy stuff
• 1:06:12
  and it's concerning things. I
• 1:06:16
  think about this a lot, which is that it's
• 1:06:20
  not fear to a certain degree is not a
• 1:06:24
  good motivational tool. And I,
• 1:06:28
  so when I was at the second year of my PhD, the
• 1:06:31
  first year of my PhD, I took a class that
• 1:06:35
  was really interesting as a graduate level class on how
• 1:06:39
  true leaders in the environmental or sustainability movements
• 1:06:44
  have like, how do they do a good job? Because
• 1:06:49
  from a marketing standpoint, climate change got
• 1:06:53
  off on a bad foot. The
• 1:06:57
  analogy was compared to like the space race. Let's
• 1:07:00
  think about the space race for a second. That motivated all of America.
• 1:07:04
  Like the public approval of spending billions of
• 1:07:07
  dollars to send a man to space, which like I'm a
• 1:07:12
  And it was unheard of at that point. Like it was like, can we really do this? Yeah,
• 1:07:16
  Everyone was motivated. I was like, yeah, this is a crazy scientific
• 1:07:20
  challenge to guest and public approval widespread.
• 1:07:25
  Now I think about that all the time. Like getting
• 1:07:29
  people excited is not for nothing. And even, You
• 1:07:33
  know, I could paint all of my stuff in a way scarier light.
• 1:07:37
  And even still, some people sometimes people are like, Why are you smiling when
• 1:07:41
  you like say all this heavy stuff? But
• 1:07:44
  I do think it's like, well, I don't want to, I don't think freaking
• 1:07:48
  people out is the answer. I think getting people to appreciate like,
• 1:07:55
  No, this is a big problem, but also here's here
• 1:07:58
  why the complexity of this are so interesting. And maybe that inspires
• 1:08:02
  you to just learn more. I think
• 1:08:05
  learning is like the start of actually making change happen.
• 1:08:09
  Yeah. But yeah, I mean, you can't market
• 1:08:12
  everything in a positive light. I'm not saying like the positive thing.
• 1:08:16
  It's not fun like the space race. But I
• 1:08:19
  do go back to that all the time when I'm making my content. I'm like, how do
• 1:08:22
  I talk about something that's like a little bit the Atlanta Mariano overturning
• 1:08:26
  circulation. That's scary. That would be really freaky if that shut
• 1:08:29
  down. But instead of saying that, I'm
• 1:08:32
  going to say, this is a really interesting, complex
• 1:08:36
  phenomenon that goes on in our climate, and you
• 1:08:39
  should know what it does. Instead of if you want to get it.
• 1:08:42
  Instead of just being fearful that somebody's thing is going to stop and the world is going
• 1:08:46
  Yes. Yes. Yes. Because I feel like that kind of communication has
• 1:08:51
  only gotten more polarized, as with everything, where
• 1:08:55
  it's like, I can't believe you don't care about this. This is so bad. And
• 1:08:58
  then the other side being like, well, you know, this isn't
• 1:09:02
  our fault. Why are you saying the world is an ending data that I'm like, how
• 1:09:05
  do we lower the volume? Yeah, I'd be like, talk about
• 1:09:08
  why this is interesting. People can draw their own conclusions and
• 1:09:14
  For sure. And especially if you're just educating, here's the process. Here's
• 1:09:17
  how it works. And here's what people are saying is slowing
• 1:09:20
  down and what that means. And then you can just
• 1:09:25
  explain it a little bit more instead of, I mean, that headline was
• 1:09:28
  fearful. I remember that headline coming. It wasn't only on CNN. It
• 1:09:33
  Everywhere. Yeah. And that headline seems to come up every once in a while. It's
• 1:09:38
  Every time a new study comes out, they're like, let's swipe this
• 1:09:42
  up. scary the crap out of everybody, which
• 1:09:46
  again, it's like I, you know, and part of it too is like you
• 1:09:49
  can't, I don't believe scientists can be frustrated at people for
• 1:09:53
  not having the correct amount of empathy for a
• 1:09:56
  problem if they didn't educate people in the first place. Like
• 1:10:00
  you can't, you know, you need to meet people in the
• 1:10:03
  middle. And if you're not going to, then I don't think you have a right to
• 1:10:06
  be so frustrated because not everyone got a PhD in
• 1:10:10
  climate science you know so you need to like meet somewhere in
• 1:10:13
  the middle and I think the education is the first step so it's I so
• 1:10:17
  enjoy being here at this point where I can like help
• 1:10:21
  Well, I'll tell you, we love it. I'm gonna say that
• 1:10:24
  from your audience as a representative from your audience, not that
• 1:10:28
  I represent your audience, loves it. And then you can tell just by the
• 1:10:31
  views and the consistent views that you're getting and the increased views that you're
• 1:10:34
  getting on a regular basis. It's just absolutely wonderful to
• 1:10:38
  watch you work, to be able to... you know, talk about
• 1:10:41
  science in the way that you do. It's so much fun. Like I said, I'm a
• 1:10:44
  huge, huge fan. And like just hearing your PhD and
• 1:10:48
  hearing the enthusiasm that you have for science in
• 1:10:51
  general and science for eutrophication and sort
• 1:10:55
  of coastal eutrophication, I'm looking forward to seeing what you're
• 1:10:58
  able to do and what you're going to be able to do with the next job
• 1:11:02
  that you have. You know, you just finished your PhD like three months
• 1:11:09
  And so I'm going to ask the fun questions, like
• 1:11:17
  I think
• 1:11:24
  Um, I know for a fact
• 1:11:28
  that I think my, my skills, you know, most people
• 1:11:32
  that know me personally, they're like, so you're going to be a
• 1:11:35
  professor, right? Um, like, Oh, so you're going to
• 1:11:38
  teach for the rest of your life, which I mean, in a perfect world,
• 1:11:42
  if I could just make interesting tech talks, like I'd
• 1:11:46
  be so happy doing that. But as of right now, it
• 1:11:49
  doesn't really pay the bills. And I do want to
• 1:11:52
  put my efforts to work on
• 1:11:56
  a specific project. So for example, I've been really interested
• 1:12:00
  in offshore wind. really interested in offshore wind. I think that
• 1:12:03
  is the direction. Energy is critical to everybody.
• 1:12:07
  We will run out of fossil fuel. How do
• 1:12:10
  we find a good way to use ocean as an energy
• 1:12:13
  resource without like causing any detrimental impacts? I
• 1:12:16
  am so fascinated with that. So for example, like an
• 1:12:20
  ideal job I applied for a couple months ago was
• 1:12:24
  offshore wind environmental expert. Like I would love
• 1:12:28
  to help you know, site offshore wind farms, I'd
• 1:12:31
  love to be there for the full process and understand the oceanography,
• 1:12:39
  Even just spatial analysis of how to locate them. Yeah.
• 1:12:43
  Yes, exactly. You know, how far can you be from shore? Will the
• 1:12:46
  other turbines interact with each other? Do they interact with any
• 1:12:54
  Exactly. I don't want to interact with fishing. So those questions fascinate
• 1:12:57
  me. I'd love to do something like that. Yeah. That's
• 1:13:01
  where my aim is right now. So currently I'm living in Boulder, Colorado.
• 1:13:10
  I loved Southern California, but I spent pretty much my entire life
• 1:13:13
  there. I like grew up there. I went to UCSB, I went to UCLA,
• 1:13:17
  I've lived in San Diego, and I just wanted to see
• 1:13:20
  something new. Boulder, Colorado has the
• 1:13:24
  National Renewable Energy Lab, which is the Department
• 1:13:27
  of Energy, the U.S. Department of Energy, that's their primary renewable
• 1:13:31
  energy research facility. So that is
• 1:13:34
  out here. That's honestly my top choice. I would love, love, love
• 1:13:37
  to work there. There's a big NOAA office
• 1:13:41
  here, the Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. I'm already
• 1:13:45
  in the process for interviewing for a job there. There's
• 1:13:50
  the National Center for Atmospheric Research. Yeah, crossing my fingers. So
• 1:13:55
  it's kind of surprising. A lot of people are like, why are you in Colorado as an oceanographer? There's
• 1:13:59
  actually a shocking amount of atmospheric and oceanic science that goes on
• 1:14:03
  Yeah, and I was just gonna say there's like a big like ocean
• 1:14:07
  Proponent there like just in terms of the people I mean,
• 1:14:10
  it's very similar to California fine where there's a lot of people who are nature focused
• 1:14:14
  You know Rockies hiking that kind of stuff, but also there are
• 1:14:17
  a lot of ocean advocates in In Colorado,
• 1:14:21
  so you're not alone like in terms of that. Yeah, let your level
• 1:14:25
  of oceanography knowledge might be you might be
• 1:14:33
  I'd also do a lot of science communication, and it's been really fun, at least these
• 1:14:37
  last two months, to give it all the time I can. But at the same time, I think it'll naturally
• 1:14:40
  grow over time. I'm at this interesting point, though, where I'm like, well, Do
• 1:14:59
  I grow it more and like how much do I grow it? And
• 1:15:03
  I know there's an audience for it. Um, you
• 1:15:07
  know, another like pipe dream or like offshoot
• 1:15:10
  life, I would love to like have an
• 1:15:14
  ocean show someday on TV or be like
• 1:15:17
  a talking head for discovery or,
• 1:15:21
  you know, I'd love to continue to like educate
• 1:15:25
  people about the ocean on a broader scale. And I
• 1:15:28
  do, like similar to my PhD, I'm like, I know that'll come. I
• 1:15:33
  know I can make it there. Yes, exactly. I'm manifesting
• 1:15:36
  it. But in the meantime, I don't think I have
• 1:15:39
  the chops to do only science communication, to
• 1:15:43
  be self-employed. I A
• 1:15:50
  Yeah, hey, I get it.
• 1:15:53
  It's a long process. It could be a traumatic process, looking
• 1:15:58
  at all the stuff that you have to do. A lot of people say it's basically working two
• 1:16:01
  jobs in one, maybe even plus that, like even more. You know,
• 1:16:04
  it's a lot to handle for anybody, and you
• 1:16:08
  did that. Plus, you developed a science communication channel that
• 1:16:12
  is blowing up, and it continues to blow up. And I'm
• 1:16:15
  looking forward to seeing what you're up to next. Like, it's going to be
• 1:16:19
  fingers crossed for all the opportunities that you're involved with now, and
• 1:16:22
  hopefully it continues. And hopefully your
• 1:16:26
  enthusiasm for the science communication continues as well, because
• 1:16:29
  it's been a pleasure to watch those videos. I enjoy it,
• 1:16:32
  and I'm sure the 7 million people that watch your
• 1:16:39
  Thank you, yes. Of anything, that is
• 1:16:44
  Yeah, I think so. I think that's what it sounds like.
• 1:16:47
  But honestly, Paige, it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast
• 1:16:51
  and to get to know you more. And I look forward to having you
• 1:16:54
  back on when you get that job or once you
• 1:16:57
  develop the science more and the science communication more.
• 1:17:02
  Yeah, you know once you let people know how they can get a hold of you. There's the
• 1:17:06
  Which yeah, just like let them know the handle and how they can look you up Yeah,
• 1:17:10
  the handle for the tick-tock is little LIL ocean
• 1:17:14
  page or you could look up PhD page II And
• 1:17:19
  I also have an Instagram that is the same
• 1:17:22
  handle LIL ocean page And
• 1:17:25
  I'm starting to put my videos on YouTube Shorts, so you can find me there. And
• 1:17:29
  who knows, maybe I'll get bored and actually start making long-form YouTube
• 1:17:33
  videos someday. I'm not sure if I'll ever
• 1:17:36
  do that. Maybe a podcast in the future. Part of me wants to, so who knows what
• 1:17:41
  Love it. Love it. I can see story time with Paige, ocean story time with Paige.
• 1:17:48
  Well, Paige, it's been a pleasure. We're looking forward to seeing what you're up to next.
• 1:17:57
  Thank you, Paige, for joining us today on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast to
• 1:18:00
  talk about not only your PhD work, but your science communication work. I
• 1:18:04
  think it's really important for scientists to have both, sort
• 1:18:07
  of that skill set, using the skills that they have, using their personality to
• 1:18:11
  bring out the messaging that they want to bring out. And that's something
• 1:18:15
  that Paige does. So again, her handle is at
• 1:18:19
  LilOceanPage, so L-I-L-O-C-E-A-N. Ocean page
• 1:18:23
  PA IGE obviously all one word you can
• 1:18:26
  go on tick tock you can also go on Instagram to follow her I highly suggest
• 1:18:29
  that you do She's gonna be up to some pretty incredible things through
• 1:18:33
  her career. It's just she's just scratching the surface literally
• 1:18:37
  just dipping a toe in and I can't wait till she dives in and and we get to
• 1:18:40
  hear all about it. So if you have any questions or comments about
• 1:18:43
  this episode, please feel free to leave a comment
• 1:18:47
  on, if you're watching this on Spotify on the video, or if you're just listening to
• 1:18:50
  it, you can leave comments. You can also leave a comment on the YouTube video and
• 1:18:54
  you can get ahold of me on Instagram at HowToProtectTheOcean, that's
• 1:18:58
  at HowToProtectTheOcean on Instagram, just DM me, I'd
• 1:19:01
  love to hear your feedback on this episode and any other episode of
• 1:19:05
  the podcast. feel free to reach out I
• 1:19:21
  appreciate Paige reaching out, and I would love to hear from you. Whether
• 1:19:24
  you want to be on the podcast or not, because you've got something interesting that you think is interesting, or
• 1:19:28
  you just want to give feedback or talk about the ocean, this
• 1:19:31
  is where we start that conversation. And we did a great job doing it today. I
• 1:19:35
  want to hear from you what you think about the ocean, and what you would like to hear more
• 1:19:38
  about, or what you would like to talk about. Hit me up
• 1:19:42
  at HowToProtectTheOcean on Instagram. Thank you so much for
• 1:19:45
  joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Have
• 1:19:49
  a great day. We'll talk to you next time. Of course, my name is Andrew Lewin. Have a