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Doug Patteson: Spycraft Travel · The Overland Journal Podcast

0:05
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
0:08
Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and I'm joined today by Doug Pattison. Now,
0:12
Speaker 1: Doug has a fascinating life story, and between his time
0:16
Speaker 1: in the CIA and now his expeditions around the world,
0:20
Speaker 1: we have a lot to learn about his experience and
0:22
Speaker 1: just the joy of hearing the adventures and the stories
0:25
Speaker 1: that has made up his incredible life. So, Doug, thank
0:28
Speaker 1: you so much for being on the podcast with me today.
0:31
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Scott, I'm really happy to be here.
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Speaker 1: General Tired delivers for whatever you do. Well, let's start
1:06
Speaker 1: a little bit with you grew up in Texas. You
1:09
Speaker 1: grew up in Austin. That is a hub of activity
1:12
Speaker 1: right now. Is that a place that you still spent
1:14
Speaker 1: some time or just that I do so.
1:16
Speaker 3: I was born in Austin, grew up in Houston, ended
1:19
Speaker 3: up back in Austin for undergrad and I still have
1:22
Speaker 3: a lot of family in Austin. And while I'm currently
1:25
Speaker 3: on the East coast in New England, I'll be relocating
1:28
Speaker 3: back to Austin most likely or to central Texas within
1:33
Speaker 3: the next year, year and a half orcent.
1:35
Speaker 1: Now, if I remember correctly, looking at your bio, I
1:38
Speaker 1: think it was sixth generation Texan. Is that right?
1:41
Speaker 2: So I think that's right.
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Speaker 3: You know, I go back and count and my great
1:45
Speaker 3: great great grandfather, I think it was, or great great
1:49
Speaker 3: great great moved to Texas in eighteen thirty two, so
1:53
Speaker 3: three years before Texas won its independence from Mexico, and
1:58
Speaker 3: he moved there with his mom and half brother of
2:01
Speaker 3: his and our family kind of just started from there.
2:03
Speaker 3: They were in the what would become the Austin area,
2:06
Speaker 3: and then they expanded out into West Texas for the
2:09
Speaker 3: latter half of the eighteen hundreds into the nineteen hundreds.
2:12
Speaker 1: And what kind of work were they doing? Were they
2:14
Speaker 1: ranchers or what was.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they were ranchers.
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Speaker 3: Eventually there the seven brothers ultimately all moved out to
2:22
Speaker 3: the Fort Davis area out in West Texas, right in
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Speaker 3: the Davis Mountains, and they settled out there around near
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Speaker 3: what is now the McDonald Observatory Improved Ranch in that
2:32
Speaker 3: whole area.
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Speaker 1: Well, and if you think about that time when they
2:36
Speaker 1: were in Austin, I mean that was a volatile moment
2:39
Speaker 1: in history for that part of Texas. Did they have
2:42
Speaker 1: any interaction with all of the battles that were occurring
2:46
Speaker 1: in that region.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, quite a few of them were involved both in
2:50
Speaker 3: the battles with the Native Americans as well as the
2:54
Speaker 3: battles with the Mexicans and whatever great he was that
2:59
Speaker 3: moved sure too to Texas.
3:01
Speaker 2: His last name was McCutcheon. Oh Okay.
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Speaker 3: When he moved here, his mom had gotten remarried to
3:08
Speaker 3: a gentleman named Gordon Jennings who was the oldest, oldest
3:11
Speaker 3: defender of the Alamo. He'd come from Connecticut to fight
3:15
Speaker 3: in the Alamo, and so he died there. Several others
3:18
Speaker 3: were members of various Texas units along the way.
3:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I joined the Air Force, that's where I
3:25
Speaker 1: went to basic training was Lackland right there in that
3:28
Speaker 1: in that area. So I mean, wow, I mean that's
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Speaker 1: incredible that whole that whole region was active at that time.
3:35
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that your family was wrapped up in
3:38
Speaker 1: that and also a lot of Western expansion and that ranching,
3:41
Speaker 1: that whole ranching complex, industrial complex that was happening in
3:45
Speaker 1: that area. It still lives on today. I mean, these
3:47
Speaker 1: are massive ranches.
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Speaker 3: No, so they by the time the Great Depression hit,
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Speaker 3: my great grandfather had to make a choice about whether
3:58
Speaker 3: to continue to ranch or sell and try and make
4:00
Speaker 3: it through the Great Depression, unknowing how long it would
4:03
Speaker 3: be sure, and so his part of the family ended
4:07
Speaker 3: up getting out of it. A couple of his brothers
4:09
Speaker 3: stayed in it. So I grew up going out there
4:12
Speaker 3: and visiting family on the ranches. But my branch of
4:15
Speaker 3: the family had gotten out of it right around the
4:17
Speaker 3: Great Depression. So we've been trying to get back to
4:20
Speaker 3: buying property there.
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Speaker 1: That'd be exciting to do that. I mean that it
4:24
Speaker 1: marks some of the earliest transitions in my life. Was
4:27
Speaker 1: you know, of course, going through basic training and joining
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Speaker 1: the military, and then when I got out of the military,
4:31
Speaker 1: I lived on my aunt and uncle's ranch in Arizona.
4:34
Speaker 1: So ranching was a big part of my youth, and
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Speaker 1: nothing but incredible memories and life lessons that occur on
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Speaker 1: a ranch.
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Speaker 3: So absolutely, yeah, my axent of my ranch exposure was
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Speaker 3: either spending time with family or hunting.
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Speaker 2: Most my life out there.
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Speaker 3: I never ended up doing much with the cattle or
4:51
Speaker 3: and you know, some horseback riding, you know, etcetera, rug
4:54
Speaker 3: bowls a couple of times where I was in.
4:57
Speaker 1: How did that go? Not?
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Speaker 2: Well?
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Speaker 1: I can't imagine. I can't imagine.
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Speaker 3: As my grandfather told me, there ain't nothing dumber a
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Speaker 3: bull rider. The first experience was pretty traumatic, so I know,
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Speaker 3: I went back a year later and did it again
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Speaker 3: just to prove to myself that I wasn't too scared
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Speaker 3: to do it, and then decided I don't need to
5:15
Speaker 3: do it anymore.
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Speaker 1: Okay, you got that T shirt. There's not many people
5:18
Speaker 1: in the world that can say that, well, first of
5:20
Speaker 1: all to say that they were a part of the CIA,
5:22
Speaker 1: but that they actually wrote a bull and lived to
5:25
Speaker 1: tell the stories.
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Speaker 2: So it's not my brightest shining moment in college. For sure.
5:29
Speaker 2: There may have been alcohol involved.
5:31
Speaker 1: No, I can understand that for sure. So when I
5:34
Speaker 1: was reading a little bit about your story, you had
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Speaker 1: this real interest and passion in spycraft and in the
5:40
Speaker 1: government and in those agencies, and that kind of formed
5:44
Speaker 1: some of your early education and some of your earliest
5:47
Speaker 1: goals in life was to participate in that part of
5:50
Speaker 1: our government. Why don't you give us a little bit
5:52
Speaker 1: of background, because I think a lot of people have
5:54
Speaker 1: interest in that, Like, how did you get yourself to
5:56
Speaker 1: the point that you could get involved with the CIA?
5:58
Speaker 1: What kind of education did you get had? That's a
6:01
Speaker 1: very difficult job to get.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think if I'd known that at
6:05
Speaker 3: the time, I might not have gone for it. But
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Speaker 3: you know, I'd grown up around both my grandfathers who
6:10
Speaker 3: were World War Two vets. One was a fighter pilot,
6:12
Speaker 3: one was a naval intelligence officer, and so I knew
6:15
Speaker 3: that there was some degree of national service that I
6:18
Speaker 3: was interested in doing.
6:19
Speaker 2: I love languages.
6:20
Speaker 3: I've grown up reading about Africa and Latin America, reading
6:23
Speaker 3: the stories of great explorers, and so I just was
6:26
Speaker 3: really focused on finding something I could do that was
6:29
Speaker 3: in that space. And you know, obviously CIA is a
6:32
Speaker 3: pretty good fit for somebody who's got a heart for
6:35
Speaker 3: national service, who's good with languages, and has a desire
6:37
Speaker 3: to spend a lot of time overseas.
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Speaker 2: However, nobody tells you how to get into it or
6:42
Speaker 2: at the time. Nobody told you how to get into it.
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Speaker 3: And I was just fortunate because they came into a
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Speaker 3: recruiting visit on campus along with a lot of other employers,
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Speaker 3: and I had a chance to talk through that with
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Speaker 3: a recruiter. Fortunately, he saw something, and he saw enough
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Speaker 3: of something in me to put me through into the process.
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Speaker 3: And so so that got me started down the process
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Speaker 3: of the cleaning, the applications.
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Speaker 2: And going through all of the exams.
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Speaker 3: You'd have to go through medical exams and psychological exams
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Speaker 3: and polygraphic exams and multiple rounds of interviews, et cetera
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Speaker 3: in order to get into what was a covert role
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Speaker 3: within the CIA, Meaning I couldn't even tell anybody that
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Speaker 3: I was going for this role in.
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Speaker 2: The CIA, and I couldn't certainly couldn't tell them what
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Speaker 2: I was going to be doing.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. And so
7:27
Speaker 1: you finished your degree and then you get through that
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Speaker 1: process and now you're starting your career in the CIA.
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Speaker 1: How did that feel? I Mean, I know a lot
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Speaker 1: of big goals like that in life. You work so
7:39
Speaker 1: hard to get there and then now you're in it.
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Speaker 1: Were you just so busy and in the process that
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Speaker 1: you didn't really get a chance to celebrate that accomplishment
7:48
Speaker 1: or how did you feel.
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Speaker 3: I don't know that it felt like an accomplishment. I
7:51
Speaker 3: know that seems weird, but it felt like it didn't
7:55
Speaker 3: feel hard to do to get into it right, you know,
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Speaker 3: at some level, I was just applying for this job
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Speaker 3: and following through the steps of the process. It was
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Speaker 3: a painful process, but it didn't feel like a hard
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Speaker 3: thing to do. I realize now obviously looking back that
8:11
Speaker 3: you know, there's a very small funnel opening that a
8:13
Speaker 3: lot of applicants kind of have to go through, and
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Speaker 3: so I'm grateful for that. You know, when I finally
8:19
Speaker 3: got to Washington and got into training, you know, I
8:22
Speaker 3: began to process with a large degree of imposter syndrome.
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Speaker 2: Did I really deserve to be here? Was I good
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Speaker 2: enough to do this?
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Speaker 3: And as I watched various counterparts of mine wash out
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Speaker 3: of the training, both my degree of confidence grew, but
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Speaker 3: also the imposter syndrome stayed while we went through it.
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Speaker 3: But it was you know, I described those kind of
8:43
Speaker 3: year and a half of training that I went through
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Speaker 3: prior to getting certified and deploying overseas as one and
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Speaker 3: a half two of the most fun years of my
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Speaker 3: life because it was high stress, high activity, but it
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Speaker 3: was high adventure and guns and helicopters and driving and
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Speaker 3: boats and all of the things that began to prepare
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Speaker 3: you to become a case officer, to go overseas and
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Speaker 3: do this job of recruiting and running spies. And so
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Speaker 3: it was outward bound with guns and it was so
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Speaker 3: much fun.
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Speaker 1: Well, I can imagine not only that sense of accomplishment,
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Speaker 1: but that awareness that you were that you signed up
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Speaker 1: to do something very hard, and that was the point,
9:22
Speaker 1: was to test ourselves. I think, as I think every
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Speaker 1: young man feels that imposter syndrome. I know that I did.
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Speaker 1: I know that I did for a great portion of
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Speaker 1: my career traveling around the world of like, what did
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Speaker 1: I do to deserve even the opportunity to be able
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Speaker 1: to do something that I felt so humbled to have
9:40
Speaker 1: had the opportunity to do. But I spent a significant
9:44
Speaker 1: portion of my career feeling like that I who am
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Speaker 1: I to be talking about this subject when I still
9:50
Speaker 1: have so much to learn? And of course I still
9:53
Speaker 1: think that I maybe know one percent of what I'd
9:55
Speaker 1: love to learn. But that's I think maybe that awareness
9:59
Speaker 1: gives us just enough humility to continue to push. And
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Speaker 1: I think those that are superior to us, they see
10:06
Speaker 1: that humility and they maybe they give us a little
10:08
Speaker 1: bit more of grace with that.
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Speaker 3: So I hope I was humble. I suspect not as
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Speaker 3: humble as my memory might start. But I was twenty
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Speaker 3: two years old when I joined. I was twenty three
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Speaker 3: when I finished training. I just turned twenty four when
10:21
Speaker 3: I deployed on my first deployment overseas, and they gave
10:24
Speaker 3: me a gun, a budget body armor and said go
10:27
Speaker 3: do this thing. And I kept waiting for somebody to
10:29
Speaker 3: tap me on the shoulder and say, yeah, we made
10:31
Speaker 3: a mistake and it turned out all right.
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Speaker 1: I know that you can't speak about a lot of
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Speaker 1: these things, but what region of the world did you
10:39
Speaker 1: first get deployed to.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, my first couple of deployments were actually in Southeast Asia,
10:45
Speaker 3: which was funny because I came into the organization speaking
10:48
Speaker 3: Spanish at a deployable level, and so naturally, government being government,
10:52
Speaker 3: they sent me to a place that, you know, Spanish
10:55
Speaker 3: was not altogether necessary for that's okay.
10:57
Speaker 2: They taught me the languages I needed.
10:59
Speaker 3: To serve in those locations, and sure there was a
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Speaker 3: lot of interesting work to do both, you know, in
11:05
Speaker 3: Asia that I really appreciated getting a chance to do,
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Speaker 3: and it fit my desire to begin exploring quite well.
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Speaker 1: And what do you when you look back at that,
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Speaker 1: I suspect that a lot of your training was to
11:17
Speaker 1: prepare you to operate in these ustere environments in totally
11:22
Speaker 1: foreign cultures to your own, oftentimes completely different religious structures,
11:28
Speaker 1: languages are very different. What were some of the things
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Speaker 1: that you look back on your training that you find
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Speaker 1: applies today for you as a global traveler. What were
11:37
Speaker 1: some of the those key learnings that you had early
11:41
Speaker 1: on in your career in that training with the CIA,
11:43
Speaker 1: that you think helped you be a better traveler.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so a couple of key learning points that I
11:50
Speaker 3: still carry with me there.
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Speaker 2: And oftentimes these are self evident, right, they really are.
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Speaker 2: But the first is is perception is reality. So if
11:58
Speaker 2: you're living.
11:58
Speaker 3: In a world where a hostile service or a criminal
12:01
Speaker 3: organization or whoever it may be, is paying attention to you,
12:05
Speaker 3: they you may never likely will never get a chance
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Speaker 3: to explain to them the motives behind the decisions.
12:10
Speaker 2: Or actions you're taking.
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Speaker 3: So their perception of those actions, those motions, those conversations
12:17
Speaker 3: is one hundred percent of their reality. And so I
12:20
Speaker 3: learned early on that I could get somebody into trouble
12:23
Speaker 3: very seriously by not recognizing how my interaction with.
12:27
Speaker 2: That person might be viewed by a hostile party.
12:29
Speaker 3: So I had to learn to act in a way
12:31
Speaker 3: that I wanted to drive a perception among.
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Speaker 2: Those who might be paying attention to me.
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Speaker 3: Another key learning point for me was rapid decision making
12:41
Speaker 3: on imperfect information. Right, You're never going to get perfect information,
12:46
Speaker 3: and so we had to learn to make decisions very
12:49
Speaker 3: very quickly, whether it was how to get off the X,
12:52
Speaker 3: how to read a street scene as it's developing, how
12:56
Speaker 3: to read a circumstance and decide whether this was enough
12:59
Speaker 3: of a question. Incidents to cause you to abort your
13:01
Speaker 3: meeting that you may have spent a week and a
13:03
Speaker 3: half planning, you know, all those sorts of things, And
13:05
Speaker 3: you know, the organization did a really good job of
13:09
Speaker 3: working us through how to make decisions rapidly, I think
13:12
Speaker 3: giving us the confidence to execute on that decision making.
13:15
Speaker 3: You know, as long as you're able to get back
13:17
Speaker 3: and explain to them your process.
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Speaker 1: And that is so relevant to travel if you think
13:22
Speaker 1: about Summit fever comes to mind. But I also know
13:26
Speaker 1: in overlanding or any other remote global travel, you can
13:30
Speaker 1: just keep getting yourself deeper and deeper into a situation
13:33
Speaker 1: that's very difficult to get out of. So you learning
13:36
Speaker 1: early on of like, all right, a cascade of events
13:39
Speaker 1: is developing that may become very difficult for me to
13:42
Speaker 1: get off the X. What were some of the things
13:45
Speaker 1: that you identify or you look for even now as
13:48
Speaker 1: a traveler, like, okay, this is something that makes me
13:52
Speaker 1: take pause or maybe even pull myself out of that situation.
13:55
Speaker 1: What are some of the environmental, the people interactions. What
13:59
Speaker 1: are some of the even the news or what's happening
14:02
Speaker 1: in a local How do you gather that information and
14:04
Speaker 1: how do you make a decision early enough to keep
14:07
Speaker 1: yourself out of trouble.
14:08
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to come back to that in just
14:09
Speaker 3: a second, right, because what I wanted to also touch
14:12
Speaker 3: upon was that in that planning process when you had
14:16
Speaker 3: to change your plan Summit fever and you decide I
14:18
Speaker 3: can't sum it because the risk is too high or
14:20
Speaker 3: this root's too dangerous, it does not.
14:22
Speaker 2: Invalidate the planning process right.
14:24
Speaker 3: In fact, that planning process should facilitate better decision making
14:28
Speaker 3: once you get further on. You can't sail over the
14:31
Speaker 3: horizon or drive from North Africa to South Africa without
14:35
Speaker 3: planning it. But if your hide bound to that plan,
14:38
Speaker 3: that's where the problems begin. And so learning to adjust
14:41
Speaker 3: your plan rapidly based on changes to that is really
14:44
Speaker 3: really important. And then the kind of the last significant
14:47
Speaker 3: lesson I would highlight is catchphrase.
14:49
Speaker 2: That I use a lot. Don't do stupid, so stupid
14:51
Speaker 2: people in stupid places at stupid times of the day
14:53
Speaker 2: or night. We call it the rule of the.
14:55
Speaker 3: Stupids, and it directly relates to the question you asked
14:58
Speaker 3: about what do you look for out there while you're traveling?
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Speaker 3: And you know, I think a great example you protest
15:05
Speaker 3: developing on the street right there. I know people who
15:08
Speaker 3: first thing is to go towards the protest and.
15:11
Speaker 2: See what's going on.
15:13
Speaker 3: But if you're in a culture that's not your own,
15:15
Speaker 3: if you're in a country that's not your own, and
15:17
Speaker 3: you have forgotten the fact that mobs are amorphous, they're
15:21
Speaker 3: difficult to predict, and they can rapidly spin out of control,
15:25
Speaker 3: then you need to remind yourself that those are very
15:28
Speaker 3: dangerous things to go do to go follow that that
15:31
Speaker 3: you know, see what it is. So in that protest,
15:34
Speaker 3: so getting off the street and getting out of you know,
15:37
Speaker 3: the way this is coming, because it really is not
15:40
Speaker 3: about getting off the X. It's about how do you
15:42
Speaker 3: identify where the X is developing before it happens so
15:45
Speaker 3: that you can avoid ever getting on it.
15:47
Speaker 2: That's a far better strategy.
15:49
Speaker 3: And so looking at local news, looking at you know,
15:53
Speaker 3: paying attention to what's happening on Twitter in advance of
15:56
Speaker 3: your trip, and then live updates while you're there, keeping
15:59
Speaker 3: your note out of your phone while you're out and
16:02
Speaker 3: about and on the street, because it's just a distractomatic
16:05
Speaker 3: device sitting in your hands, and it's going to erode
16:09
Speaker 3: your situational awareness rapidly.
16:11
Speaker 2: And so it's being very very intentional about these things.
16:14
Speaker 3: Learning your route before you leave the facility, the building,
16:17
Speaker 3: the car, so that when you get out on the street,
16:20
Speaker 3: you're able to use your senses.
16:22
Speaker 2: Around you to pay attention to what's happening while you're
16:24
Speaker 2: out there.
16:24
Speaker 3: And that serves well in a rural environment, while overlanding,
16:27
Speaker 3: it serves well in an urban environment while on a
16:30
Speaker 3: holiday with your family.
16:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Are there are
16:33
Speaker 1: there tools that you use? I mean, you might still
16:36
Speaker 1: have access to some government insights, but are there tools
16:40
Speaker 1: or apps that you use to get active updates on
16:43
Speaker 1: like a situational communications in these countries.
16:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean so I use an app called go Vigilant,
16:51
Speaker 3: which does a really good job of aggregating social media
16:55
Speaker 3: posts as well as official government posts for a given
16:59
Speaker 3: GEO or a given urban location. I'm very active in
17:03
Speaker 3: following the State Department's updates in the State department annual
17:06
Speaker 3: crime and safety reports that they put out for each
17:09
Speaker 3: of their countries that they cover. I also look at
17:11
Speaker 3: other nationalities similar things, so the British government's information they've
17:16
Speaker 3: put out for its people. I think information informs decision making.
17:20
Speaker 3: It shouldn't make you more fearful about where you're going.
17:22
Speaker 3: More information should actually lay concerns, not.
17:26
Speaker 2: Keep them up. And then I think it's.
17:28
Speaker 3: Useful to follow folks like Global Rescue and other companies
17:31
Speaker 3: like they're out there that have they sell E and
17:34
Speaker 3: E packagings, they sell emergency evac insurance, but they also
17:38
Speaker 3: do a good job of keeping their clientele informed on
17:41
Speaker 3: where they're going and what's going on.
17:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, to help mitigate their insurance risk and mitigate the
17:46
Speaker 1: risk for their clients. I'm also a big fan of
17:49
Speaker 1: enrolling in the STEP program with the State Department. Like
17:52
Speaker 1: when we went through Nigeria recently, just a couple of
17:55
Speaker 1: months ago, you know, it was really important that we
17:58
Speaker 1: maintained active communication with the department, and they actually provided
18:01
Speaker 1: us with a route to drive that kept us as
18:04
Speaker 1: far away from the ex as they could get us.
18:06
Speaker 3: So I do the same thing. I'd recommend STEP to everybody.
18:10
Speaker 3: The STEP is the Smart Traveler Enrollment Program. For those
18:13
Speaker 3: that don't know as you can do it on Department
18:15
Speaker 3: of State's website. What's great about it is is at
18:19
Speaker 3: its basis level, if you go back to the Arab
18:22
Speaker 3: spring in the Libya in twenty twelve, what it allowed
18:25
Speaker 3: them to do was reach out to every known American
18:27
Speaker 3: who was registered in the country and begin to provide
18:30
Speaker 3: information on evacuation routes and areas of the city.
18:33
Speaker 2: To avoid Whenever there's a warden notice that goes out
18:36
Speaker 2: to Americans that are in town.
18:37
Speaker 3: So it's not that the government wants to track you
18:40
Speaker 3: while you're traveling overseas and they're not putting your cell
18:42
Speaker 3: phone number into some database that lets them then follow
18:45
Speaker 3: you along, but it does let them give you a
18:48
Speaker 3: warning notice or advance notice when things are developing rapidly,
18:52
Speaker 3: as well as help them help.
18:54
Speaker 2: You through things like evacuations when necessary.
18:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've had nothing but really positive ex experiences with
19:00
Speaker 1: that program, and even have developed some lifelong friends that
19:04
Speaker 1: work in the State Department through that interaction because they
19:07
Speaker 1: think it's interesting, like what you're doing with this Defender
19:10
Speaker 1: X expedition, Like they think that's cool as hell too,
19:14
Speaker 1: So you can develop a friendship and then they're a
19:17
Speaker 1: little more vested in your safety because they're like, oh,
19:19
Speaker 1: these guys are doing really cool stuff that they find
19:21
Speaker 1: interesting themselves.
19:23
Speaker 2: Right exactly.
19:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, that all of those are really important reminders. And
19:28
Speaker 1: I like your approach in the fact that we never
19:31
Speaker 1: want people to feel fearful to travel, but we want
19:34
Speaker 1: them to be as informed as possible.
19:37
Speaker 3: That's why I use the rule of the stupids. It's
19:39
Speaker 3: not a it's a decision rubric more than anything else. Right,
19:43
Speaker 3: you know, if you can do something stupid, or you
19:46
Speaker 3: can you know, you can do something with a stupid friend,
19:49
Speaker 3: and we all know I don't mean intelligence there, right, Sure,
19:52
Speaker 3: and or you can do.
19:53
Speaker 2: Something at the wrong time of day or night.
19:55
Speaker 3: But as you add more of those stupids together, the
19:59
Speaker 3: risk of catastrophic goes up, you know, significantly. And so
20:04
Speaker 3: if you sit there and you go, okay, let me
20:06
Speaker 3: evaluate my decision matrix on this and figure out what
20:11
Speaker 3: really am I signing up for, right, you know, jumping
20:14
Speaker 3: off a cliff into a quarry is a relatively high
20:17
Speaker 3: risk thing. But you know, if it's three o'clock on
20:19
Speaker 3: a sunny afternoon and you're with friends who are smart, capable,
20:23
Speaker 3: physically fit, and trustworthy, that's radically different than doing it
20:27
Speaker 3: at two in the morning with friends that are inebriated,
20:29
Speaker 3: when the lights there's you know, no moonlight, no light
20:32
Speaker 3: of any sort. And yet it's the same thing as
20:34
Speaker 3: jumping off a cliff into a quarry, but the risk
20:37
Speaker 3: is significantly higher in the second. And so if you
20:39
Speaker 3: think through and own your own decision making right by
20:43
Speaker 3: using whatever tools you need to use, do that. And
20:45
Speaker 3: I think the rule of stupids is a helpful way
20:47
Speaker 3: to think through this. And I've gotten tons of feedback
20:50
Speaker 3: from others that I've shared this with that have used
20:51
Speaker 3: it or had their children use it in their own
20:53
Speaker 3: processes and gotten themselves out of or kept themselves out
20:56
Speaker 3: of trouble.
20:57
Speaker 1: Are there guardrails that you continue tomployee in your travels today?
21:01
Speaker 1: Like driving at night as an example. Are there things
21:04
Speaker 1: that you're that you kind of have is they can
21:06
Speaker 1: never be hard rules, because there's times that you have
21:09
Speaker 1: to drive at night, unfortunately, But are there things like
21:12
Speaker 1: that you are mindful of where you stay, where you
21:15
Speaker 1: stay things like that.
21:17
Speaker 3: One of the great things in the intelligence community is
21:19
Speaker 3: the answer to every problem is it depends sure. And
21:22
Speaker 3: so the guardrails for me are really focused on evaluating
21:25
Speaker 3: each situation independently of itself.
21:28
Speaker 2: I generally don't have hard and fast rules, you know.
21:31
Speaker 3: I apply a decision matrix or rubric to each situation,
21:35
Speaker 3: and I make it an active decision rather than a
21:37
Speaker 3: passive decision. You know, if I'm with others, we're going
21:41
Speaker 3: to talk about it as a group and figure out
21:42
Speaker 3: what's the right risk profile for us, the right risk
21:45
Speaker 3: tolerance for us, so that we can, you know, make
21:47
Speaker 3: the best decision we can in that situation. There, I mean,
21:50
Speaker 3: there are some hard and fast for me specifically, or
21:53
Speaker 3: for any former intelligence officer or former really former military
21:58
Speaker 3: that there's some countries you probably should never go to,
22:00
Speaker 3: right and some of those are they're all the ones
22:03
Speaker 3: you would know to think of, you know, the rushes
22:06
Speaker 3: of the world we're at, given the current stay of
22:08
Speaker 3: the world, it would just literally be foolhardy to go
22:10
Speaker 3: do that and allow yourself to become a pawn in
22:13
Speaker 3: what we term hostage diplomacy.
22:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and that's something that seems to be very active,
22:18
Speaker 1: even the number of Overlanders that have been detained or
22:21
Speaker 1: are still currently detained or imprisoned in Iran, for example,
22:25
Speaker 1: you know, which is You know, we can separate the
22:27
Speaker 1: fact that most Iranian people are wonderful, hospitable, kind loving people,
22:33
Speaker 1: but it's it's a government that in its current configuration
22:36
Speaker 1: is quite dangerous.
22:38
Speaker 2: Yes, to go into. I spent several years as the
22:42
Speaker 2: board chair of the James W.
22:44
Speaker 3: Foley Legacy Foundation, which was which was named after Jim Foley,
22:47
Speaker 3: a journalist who was totally murdered by ISIS, and it
22:50
Speaker 3: was videoed all over the world in the mid twenty tens,
22:53
Speaker 3: and a big focus of our organization was getting people
22:57
Speaker 3: out of being held unjustly.
22:59
Speaker 2: To take or hostages abroad.
23:01
Speaker 3: And we will never victim blame, right, But I do
23:04
Speaker 3: think that if you apply the rule of stupids in
23:06
Speaker 3: some of those situations, it may keep you out of
23:09
Speaker 3: those situations as they develop. You get into them, We're
23:12
Speaker 3: going to do the best we can to get you
23:13
Speaker 3: out of them. But you know, don't go looking for
23:15
Speaker 3: things where you don't have to.
23:17
Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like, first of all, not putting yourself
23:20
Speaker 1: into that country where you're within their infrastructure and government.
23:23
Speaker 1: But if you're in a country like that and one
23:26
Speaker 1: of those things start to develop, do you have any
23:28
Speaker 1: suggestions for travelers like in that those first moments, things
23:32
Speaker 1: that they can be doing to hopefully improve the outcome.
23:36
Speaker 3: Rapid decision making on imperfect information, get out the trip can.
23:39
Speaker 2: Be completed at a later day potentially, you know.
23:42
Speaker 3: And I'll give you a very specific example of this
23:44
Speaker 3: Defender X, which we'll talk about more detail. One of
23:46
Speaker 3: the very first plans for Defender X was London to
23:50
Speaker 3: New York across the Bearing Strait. We got a long
23:52
Speaker 3: way on that path when and I was not involved
23:57
Speaker 3: in the expedition at that point, in time or not
23:59
Speaker 3: participate painting on the expeditions. But the team got halfway
24:03
Speaker 3: through Russia when Russia invaded Ukraine, and so they made
24:07
Speaker 3: the decision. I think it was exactly the right decision
24:10
Speaker 3: to abandon the expedition as currently planned, even though they
24:14
Speaker 3: were halfway through Russia almost to the bringing straight, knowing
24:18
Speaker 3: that there was going to be in likelihood of a
24:20
Speaker 3: long term war that was going to inhibit a whole
24:23
Speaker 3: bunch of aspects of the travel and added risks, and
24:25
Speaker 3: so within twenty four hours they made the decision to
24:28
Speaker 3: stop the expedition, get the vehicles out and go, rather
24:31
Speaker 3: than risk being held as of some plan that could
24:34
Speaker 3: unfold later. And so they sacrificed the dream, which was
24:37
Speaker 3: this east following the Eastern Path from London to New
24:41
Speaker 3: York to because it didn't make sense yet. And so
24:44
Speaker 3: that's an unfinished aspect of Defend Directs that with the
24:48
Speaker 3: right timing and right political situation, will go back and do.
24:51
Speaker 2: But we've adjusted since then.
24:54
Speaker 1: Not a week goes by that someone doesn't reach out
24:56
Speaker 1: to ask how they can help support the podcast. We
25:00
Speaker 1: are supported entirely by Overland Journal, the magazine. So when
25:06
Speaker 1: you become a subscriber to the Overland Journal print magazine,
25:09
Speaker 1: you get this beautiful book that comes in five times
25:11
Speaker 1: a year. It also gives you access to our digital archive,
25:15
Speaker 1: and it's well over one hundred pages of gorgeous images
25:18
Speaker 1: and detailed testing and adventures from around the globe. So
25:22
Speaker 1: if you go to Overland Journal dot com and you
25:25
Speaker 1: subscribe to the magazine, use the code Overland Podcast and
25:29
Speaker 1: that'll get you twenty percent off. It's only available to
25:32
Speaker 1: our podcast listeners. We don't advertise it anywhere else, and
25:35
Speaker 1: then you help us to maintain that independent, employee owned
25:40
Speaker 1: journalism that we have been famous for, so it allows
25:43
Speaker 1: us to conduct those tests without any advertorial Another way
25:48
Speaker 1: you can help out too. I produced a book last
25:51
Speaker 1: year with Simon and Schuster called Overlanding one oh one.
25:53
Speaker 1: You can find it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble
25:56
Speaker 1: or even your local bookstore, and that encompasses decades of
26:00
Speaker 1: travel around the world, all my mistakes and failures and
26:04
Speaker 1: the lessons that I've learned in traveling around the globe.
26:07
Speaker 1: Many of those that you hear on the podcast have
26:10
Speaker 1: been distilled down into print form with great lists and
26:13
Speaker 1: beautiful imagery. So you can find that at your local
26:16
Speaker 1: bookstore overlanding one on one and thank you all for
26:19
Speaker 1: listening and for supporting us so much throughout these years. Yeah,
26:24
Speaker 1: and it's so funny. When I went across Russia it
26:27
Speaker 1: was twenty twelve and it was easy to do that then,
26:30
Speaker 1: you know, all the way to Magadan, so but now
26:33
Speaker 1: would be a totally different situation.
26:35
Speaker 3: So correct, Yes, yeah, yeah, and the ice roads, the
26:39
Speaker 3: Ice Road's never easy.
26:40
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, it's it's it's certainly an interesting part
26:43
Speaker 1: of the world and a lot of adventure to be
26:45
Speaker 1: had in Siberia and Eastern Russia for sure. Yes, absolutely,
26:49
Speaker 1: that's a great opportunity for us to kind of pivot
26:52
Speaker 1: towards Defender X a little bit. But before we dive
26:56
Speaker 1: into that, let's talk a little bit about your own
26:58
Speaker 1: personal passion for remote international travel. What were some of
27:03
Speaker 1: the expeditions and adventures that you did overlanding or otherwise
27:07
Speaker 1: before you got involved with Defender X.
27:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I always have had well as an adult,
27:12
Speaker 3: I've always had a passion for exploring kind of lesser
27:15
Speaker 3: known or lesser experienced places, and so you know, I
27:18
Speaker 3: had living in Asia, I had an old Pagero for
27:22
Speaker 3: a long time, and then I had a jeep Cherokee
27:25
Speaker 3: one time when it was the only jeep Cherokee.
27:27
Speaker 2: In the entire country.
27:29
Speaker 3: We were in there, and I overlanded that across much
27:32
Speaker 3: of the Golden Triangle area, sure, and where it was
27:37
Speaker 3: just me and my wife and exploring these remote mountain
27:41
Speaker 3: villages and rice patties and high peaks and opium fields
27:45
Speaker 3: and really just a fun thing. We did a lot
27:48
Speaker 3: of scuba diving and a lot of surfing across Southeast
27:50
Speaker 3: Asia in that same time frame, and all of which
27:53
Speaker 3: kind of led me to supporting a couple of climbing expeditions,
27:57
Speaker 3: and then that I joined the Explorers Club nineteen ninety
28:00
Speaker 3: eight after a particular expedition that I was able to
28:04
Speaker 3: support that folks like Lynn Hill and Todd Skinner and
28:06
Speaker 3: Paul Piana had been on to climb in Halong Bay
28:10
Speaker 3: in North Vietnam. So I really have always enjoyed that.
28:14
Speaker 3: And there was no way we could have gotten most
28:17
Speaker 3: of the places we went to regularly without having had
28:19
Speaker 3: the four wheel drive vehicles that were capable of getting
28:21
Speaker 3: us in and out of these places. So I've always
28:24
Speaker 3: loved the I'd say that the more robust four wheel
28:27
Speaker 3: drives not really into the soccer mom suv version of them.
28:32
Speaker 2: And I don't mean to be negative in that, it's
28:34
Speaker 2: just not it's not the tool that you need. It's
28:36
Speaker 2: not the tool that you need. And so I've and
28:39
Speaker 2: had always been a fan of the land Rovers.
28:41
Speaker 3: So when I got involved with Defender X, it was
28:43
Speaker 3: really a fun connection of having done some of this
28:46
Speaker 3: stuff on my own and then now connecting it to
28:49
Speaker 3: new ways.
28:49
Speaker 1: Well, and you mentioned your wife in reading your bio.
28:52
Speaker 1: She has an amazing story of her own. She was
28:55
Speaker 1: involved with the team that was monitoring Osama bin Lauden.
28:59
Speaker 1: So credible career that you both had, and if I
29:02
Speaker 1: understood it correctly, you guys actually made the decision to
29:05
Speaker 1: stop working in the CAAA to provide a future for
29:09
Speaker 1: your marriage. That's something that we all are faced with,
29:12
Speaker 1: is these passions that we have that take us away
29:16
Speaker 1: from home and in remote areas of the world. What
29:19
Speaker 1: were some things that you learned around that that you
29:21
Speaker 1: could share with the audience about making a decision like
29:24
Speaker 1: that to give up something that was so critical to
29:26
Speaker 1: both of your lives to preserve what was clearly the
29:29
Speaker 1: most important thing, which was each other.
29:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was interesting because, well, a couple of things.
29:35
Speaker 3: I married very well. I'm married a woman who had
29:38
Speaker 3: high expectations.
29:39
Speaker 2: For the man who she was going to be partnered
29:41
Speaker 2: with for the rest of her life.
29:42
Speaker 3: She wasn't shy about communicating those expectations nor holding me
29:46
Speaker 3: accountable to them in a lot of respects.
29:49
Speaker 1: That's a gift, Yeah, for sure.
29:51
Speaker 3: Before I got married, I had a meeting with my
29:53
Speaker 3: first deputy chief of station overseas and I was leaving
29:57
Speaker 3: within a few days to go back home to get
29:59
Speaker 3: married and then rich and the deputy chief said to me,
30:02
Speaker 3: and I'll never forget it.
30:03
Speaker 2: He goes, don't screw this up. And I said, well,
30:05
Speaker 2: what do you mean, sir?
30:05
Speaker 3: He goes, Well, when you're eighty, none of us will
30:08
Speaker 3: be here for you. No one you're working with right
30:11
Speaker 3: now is going to be standing at your bedside when
30:13
Speaker 3: you're eighty and needing help getting fed or whatever the
30:17
Speaker 3: situation may be. He goes, But if you don't screw
30:19
Speaker 3: it up, she will, he goes, And most of us
30:23
Speaker 3: have screwed it up.
30:24
Speaker 2: He goes.
30:25
Speaker 3: Look around carefully, and you'll see most of us are
30:27
Speaker 3: on our second or third or more marriages or no
30:31
Speaker 3: longer any marriages, and you know, that's.
30:34
Speaker 2: A significant cost of this service.
30:37
Speaker 3: So I watched that over the few first few tours
30:40
Speaker 3: and recognize that's very true. And in fact, i'd say
30:43
Speaker 3: probably less than three percent of the class that I.
30:46
Speaker 2: Joined with in the agency remain married to their first pouse.
30:49
Speaker 3: It's absolutely a brutal career choice on families. And so
30:54
Speaker 3: at this mid career point when we were having to
30:58
Speaker 3: decide do we stay or not, and both of us
31:00
Speaker 3: were officers at the time and we just started having kids,
31:03
Speaker 3: we recognized, you know, the challenges that was going to
31:06
Speaker 3: bring to us, and we just said, yeah, we're choosing each.
31:09
Speaker 2: Other over this now family. Yeah yeah.
31:12
Speaker 3: And it helped that we had done it for ten
31:14
Speaker 3: years and so we weren't walking away from it with
31:17
Speaker 3: the question of gosh, I don't know if I can
31:19
Speaker 3: do this right. We're walking away confident that we had
31:23
Speaker 3: done what we could do and done it well. And
31:26
Speaker 3: so it was time for that new adventure, and we
31:29
Speaker 3: chose each other.
31:30
Speaker 1: And I mean, but what an incredible thing that you did,
31:33
Speaker 1: both of you to say, I mean, because I would
31:36
Speaker 1: suspect that being in this CIA was an intoxicating experience, yeah,
31:41
Speaker 1: and addicting in many ways, and it's hard to let
31:44
Speaker 1: those things go. So that's I mean, what a testament
31:47
Speaker 1: to you and your wife.
31:49
Speaker 2: Thank you.
31:50
Speaker 3: It's funny. I think once you realize what's most important,
31:55
Speaker 3: decisions like that become easy. And so for us it
31:58
Speaker 3: was an easy decision.
32:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, we both.
32:01
Speaker 3: Second guessed it, you know, later on, but also said, nope,
32:05
Speaker 3: we are comfortable with what we did. We were comfortable
32:07
Speaker 3: with our service.
32:08
Speaker 2: We're glad you know that we did it, but we're
32:10
Speaker 2: glad to be doing something different now.
32:13
Speaker 1: And when you got out of the CAA, you went,
32:15
Speaker 1: if I understood you correctly, you went back to school,
32:17
Speaker 1: gained some additional education. Talk us through, like what happened
32:21
Speaker 1: after you got into the CAA. What kind of work
32:23
Speaker 1: did you start doing, and how did that set you
32:25
Speaker 1: up to be able to be in this role part
32:28
Speaker 1: of a significant expedition around the world.
32:31
Speaker 3: Well, I think the combination of learning the skills about
32:35
Speaker 3: how to navigate the world around me, that the agency
32:37
Speaker 3: taught the language skills, how to navigate bureaucracies.
32:40
Speaker 2: So those are all valuable from an expeditionary perspective.
32:43
Speaker 3: I went back to get my master's degree and go
32:46
Speaker 3: into business for several years. And both in the agency
32:49
Speaker 3: and in grad school and in business, I learned how
32:52
Speaker 3: to build and maintain strong networks. And my connection Defender
32:56
Speaker 3: X began in that grad school environment because the found
33:00
Speaker 3: Defender X was one of my grad school classmates, and
33:03
Speaker 3: that's great. He had grown up in Africa and had
33:06
Speaker 3: been an avid Overlander before the term.
33:09
Speaker 2: Was really ever even used sure, and.
33:12
Speaker 3: He after graduation, rather than taking a job, decided to
33:16
Speaker 3: drive around the world in his land Rover. And obviously
33:19
Speaker 3: September eleventh had an impact on that initial trip, but
33:22
Speaker 3: he was able to complete that trip and then go
33:24
Speaker 3: on to do other things such that twenty years later,
33:27
Speaker 3: when we came back together to start talking about Defender X,
33:30
Speaker 3: you know, is like putting on an old coat and
33:32
Speaker 3: working together to figure out what's a new challenge to
33:35
Speaker 3: tackle and what.
33:36
Speaker 1: A neat thing to do trips like that with people
33:38
Speaker 1: you've known for a long time. Would you know, think
33:41
Speaker 1: about the West Africa trip we just did, And I'd
33:43
Speaker 1: known several of these guys for well over a decade,
33:46
Speaker 1: and it's it becomes easier to travel with people that
33:49
Speaker 1: you just trust you just know them and trust that
33:51
Speaker 1: they've got your you know, you may not agree on everything,
33:53
Speaker 1: but you know that the person's got your best interest
33:55
Speaker 1: at heart.
33:56
Speaker 3: Yes, it's you know, sometimes, I'd say most most times,
34:01
Speaker 3: the people component is the toughest part of any expedition
34:04
Speaker 3: because whether it's whether whether it's a mechanical failure, whether
34:09
Speaker 3: it's road washouts or other infrastructure issues related to it,
34:12
Speaker 3: How well or poorly those things go is one hundred
34:15
Speaker 3: percent depending upon the team and the team dynamic. Yeah,
34:19
Speaker 3: And so finding that right team dynamic of trust and
34:22
Speaker 3: work ethic and I would argue.
34:24
Speaker 2: Joy, yeah, is really really important.
34:29
Speaker 1: And a lot of joy comes from doing hard things
34:32
Speaker 1: with people that you love and trust. A lot of
34:35
Speaker 1: joy comes from that. I mean, I think that we're
34:38
Speaker 1: supposed to do hard things. I think the more that
34:40
Speaker 1: we get on our phones and the more that we
34:42
Speaker 1: make our life because life can be very comfortable if
34:44
Speaker 1: we allow it, especially in twenty twenty six, life can
34:47
Speaker 1: be very virtual, very comfortable. We can get a lot
34:50
Speaker 1: of dopamine very easily. So the choice to do something
34:54
Speaker 1: difficult like this, most people don't make that choice. What
34:57
Speaker 1: led you guys to do that? To say, hey, we
35:00
Speaker 1: want to drive around the world the really hard way.
35:03
Speaker 3: Well, I mean all of us on the expedition have
35:06
Speaker 3: a history of doing hard things.
35:08
Speaker 2: So so, and in fact, that was the way we
35:11
Speaker 2: raised our kids.
35:11
Speaker 3: We actually talked to our children about the importance of
35:14
Speaker 3: doing hard things because it would be a way to
35:15
Speaker 3: differentiate themselves from their peers and to set out to
35:19
Speaker 3: do hard things, you know, And we'd use the example
35:21
Speaker 3: of George Washington was the surveyor for the entire Commonwealth
35:24
Speaker 3: of Virginia at sixteen, right, Admiral Farragut, You know, the
35:29
Speaker 3: US Navy admiral started out as a twelve year old
35:32
Speaker 3: cabin boy who was put in command of a captured
35:34
Speaker 3: British ship during the War of eighteen twelve and sailed
35:37
Speaker 3: it back to US waters in command of the Brits
35:40
Speaker 3: when they tried to mutiny underneath him twice.
35:42
Speaker 2: And as a twelve year old he commanded this ship.
35:44
Speaker 3: So you know, we can do hard things from early ages,
35:47
Speaker 3: and so being aligned with folks that had that same
35:50
Speaker 3: mindset is amazing. And the masterminds behind the Finderres are
35:55
Speaker 3: really Jeff Welder and Steve Brooks, and both are members
35:59
Speaker 3: of the Royal Geographics sos IDY as well as the
36:01
Speaker 3: Explorers Club. They're both you know, have tremendous exploration history
36:05
Speaker 3: and background. Steve did the first pole to pole helicopter flight,
36:09
Speaker 3: which you know included spending way too long in the
36:13
Speaker 3: Drake's Passage after having ditched their first helicopter when it crashed.
36:16
Speaker 3: You know, Jeff's driven around the world several times. Mikael
36:19
Speaker 3: Strandberg is another one of our team members, and he
36:21
Speaker 3: skied the Greenland ice Caps. He cycled from Chile to Alaska.
36:26
Speaker 3: He cycled from South Africa to Europe. So you know,
36:30
Speaker 3: these guys, these are all folks that just the idea
36:32
Speaker 3: of doing hard things is not foreign to them at all.
36:37
Speaker 3: It's funny we ways to do hard things in comfort
36:39
Speaker 3: on our expeditions, which is always makes it a little
36:42
Speaker 3: bit interesting.
36:43
Speaker 2: But you know, eventually they sat down and said.
36:45
Speaker 3: We want to drive from London to New York and
36:48
Speaker 3: go across the two main bodies of water, which is
36:52
Speaker 3: you know, the English Channel and the Bearing Straight in
36:54
Speaker 3: the same vehicle that we drove over land. That was
36:56
Speaker 3: the vision, and so they created a proprietary float system
37:00
Speaker 3: as well as the mechanics to raise and lower the
37:03
Speaker 3: floats and went through multiple proprietary systems for the drive
37:06
Speaker 3: system of the propellers and obviously had to abandon that
37:10
Speaker 3: previous trip. So, you know, after that happened, they went
37:13
Speaker 3: back in in twenty twenty four, decided well, well, let's
37:16
Speaker 3: let's go to New York and let's at least go
37:19
Speaker 3: westward and see if we can't, you know, see what
37:21
Speaker 3: happens time wise.
37:22
Speaker 2: And so they drove.
37:23
Speaker 3: Across Canada and then ultimately did twelve hundred kilometers down
37:26
Speaker 3: the Yukon River, and the entire twelve hundredkilometers down the
37:29
Speaker 3: Yukon River was in the amphibious mode for these land
37:32
Speaker 3: Rover Defender one tents. So that was really the longest
37:36
Speaker 3: kind of proof of concept for this amphibious capacity for
37:41
Speaker 3: the And you know, once those kings worked out, made
37:43
Speaker 3: some engine and drive train changes based on the rush
37:46
Speaker 3: of portion of the trip, you know, kept the bodies
37:48
Speaker 3: and swapped out engines to go backwards in time to
37:51
Speaker 3: get rid of some of the sensors and other things
37:52
Speaker 3: that create problems in those environments. They said, well, let's
37:55
Speaker 3: let's go back and let's do London to Sydney, and
37:58
Speaker 3: so they had invited me on the Yukon River expedition.
38:01
Speaker 3: I was not able to go. My wife was very
38:03
Speaker 3: ill at the time. Some of the viewers may know,
38:05
Speaker 3: but my wife passed away in twenty twenty five and
38:08
Speaker 3: as a result of that illness, and then after she
38:10
Speaker 3: passed away, they said, hey, we think it'd be great
38:13
Speaker 3: if you joined us for this next one, which is
38:16
Speaker 3: London to Sydney. And we're in the midst of that
38:19
Speaker 3: expedition right now and it's very fun, very exciting, and
38:22
Speaker 3: very challenging. Credit so far, we've done the first two
38:26
Speaker 3: legs of what will ultimately be about eight or nine legs.
38:29
Speaker 1: Well, and the Yukon River is I mean, even doing
38:32
Speaker 1: that in a jet boat or something, it's difficult. It's
38:36
Speaker 1: very shallow in places, it's easy to get hung up.
38:39
Speaker 1: So doing it in a vehicle that is quite top
38:42
Speaker 1: heavy on those floats, I mean, that is a very
38:45
Speaker 1: challenging undertaking. And they did. They take that all the
38:47
Speaker 1: way to the coast.
38:49
Speaker 2: They did.
38:50
Speaker 1: Yes, incredible, incredible.
38:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, they did a great job and they learned a
38:54
Speaker 3: lot in the process. They had lots of breakdowns in
38:57
Speaker 3: the process, lots of things to fix as Walts Prize anybody.
39:01
Speaker 3: They also learned a lot about the environment that they
39:03
Speaker 3: were in, right that there's you know, the Yukon River
39:06
Speaker 3: has almost no fish in it.
39:08
Speaker 2: You know this expectation, Hey, we'll fish, We'll catch some
39:11
Speaker 2: stamon while on it. And you know, there used to be.
39:13
Speaker 3: Five thousand person strong salmon fishing villages on the Yukon
39:17
Speaker 3: River and those are just abandoned now because there's no fish.
39:20
Speaker 2: Population to support.
39:21
Speaker 3: So there's some interesting environmental things that they learned in
39:24
Speaker 3: that process too.
39:26
Speaker 1: And that's an important part of the story, is that
39:29
Speaker 1: you know, even when we're exploring, we have an impact,
39:31
Speaker 1: and how can we give back? And I know that
39:34
Speaker 1: that's you and I are both fellows of the Explorers Club,
39:37
Speaker 1: and those are important responsibilities that we have as travelers,
39:41
Speaker 1: as expedition leaders and as travelers. Is to minimize our
39:44
Speaker 1: impact and to give back to not only the environments
39:48
Speaker 1: that we that bring us such joy, but the communities
39:51
Speaker 1: and the cultures that we are able to interact with.
39:53
Speaker 1: What are some ways that you have found to give
39:55
Speaker 1: back when you're doing these trips?
39:58
Speaker 3: Well, once Minor Crush, I'm a member of the Explorers Club,
40:01
Speaker 3: not a fellow, So I'll just note that I don't want
40:03
Speaker 3: to claim something I haven't haven't earned. Sure, we connect
40:07
Speaker 3: with local communities almost everywhere that we go, whether it's
40:10
Speaker 3: working with villages in East Africa where we've set up
40:15
Speaker 3: schooling programs, or villages we've worked with in Nepaul. We
40:19
Speaker 3: try to make sure that that we understand who we're
40:22
Speaker 3: with right not just who on the team we're with,
40:25
Speaker 3: but who we're within the areas we're going through. And
40:28
Speaker 3: so many of those connections are for the trip, but
40:30
Speaker 3: some of them end up leading to much longer relationships,
40:34
Speaker 3: and we've we've built some of those into the into
40:36
Speaker 3: the system.
40:37
Speaker 2: That's whatever we connect with. So it's good.
40:39
Speaker 1: Oh that's no. That's an incredible thing to do, and
40:41
Speaker 1: it's it's so honorable that you and your team are
40:45
Speaker 1: mindful of that as you're traveling such great distances, finding
40:48
Speaker 1: ways to give back, because of course, travel gives us
40:51
Speaker 1: so much.
40:52
Speaker 2: It doesn't.
40:54
Speaker 3: It's funny because at some level we have to recognize
40:56
Speaker 3: that we're in a position of incredible privilege, like we're
41:00
Speaker 3: doing this trip. It's hard, it's challenging, it's fun, but
41:03
Speaker 3: there's no reason.
41:04
Speaker 2: To do it.
41:04
Speaker 3: In fact, often we call it we internally we call
41:08
Speaker 3: it a whole lot of nonsense.
41:09
Speaker 2: Right.
41:10
Speaker 3: It's four middle aged western white males who've decided we
41:13
Speaker 3: want to drive from London to Sydney because nobody's done
41:17
Speaker 3: it before and we're in the position where we can
41:19
Speaker 3: do it. We have the time, the resources, the experience base.
41:23
Speaker 3: But it's incumbent upon us to recognize too then it's
41:26
Speaker 3: a little bit silly, and that's okay, right.
41:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've done a lot of nonsense in my life,
41:32
Speaker 1: but I.
41:32
Speaker 3: Will say that the nonsense is part of why we
41:34
Speaker 3: do it, because it's fun. It's a throwback to the
41:37
Speaker 3: eighteen hundreds explorers who sometimes just said, hey, let's just
41:41
Speaker 3: go do this thing, and so we try not to
41:43
Speaker 3: take ourselves too seriously throughout the process. We recognize there's
41:47
Speaker 3: a non significant nonsense component to it, which makes it fun.
41:51
Speaker 3: But we also want to make sure that we acknowledge
41:53
Speaker 3: the folks that we interact with, spend time with our
41:56
Speaker 3: effect all along the way, and some of those roadside
41:59
Speaker 3: conversations have been one of my favorite conversations in Eastern Turkey. Recently,
42:05
Speaker 3: we stopped at a roadside and ended up sitting down for
42:08
Speaker 3: a long time over tea and cigarettes with local hunters
42:11
Speaker 3: who wanted to pull out their phones and just like
42:14
Speaker 3: hunters worldwide shared photos of their hunting conquests and trophies
42:19
Speaker 3: and wanted to see photos of you know, hunts from
42:21
Speaker 3: the States or Canada or Africa. None of us could
42:24
Speaker 3: speak any words of the other's language, but it didn't matter.
42:28
Speaker 3: A connection built over the shared exposure to the outdoors
42:32
Speaker 3: and the environment.
42:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, what an incredible experience. And also it's important
42:37
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that what you guys are doing is very inspiring.
42:41
Speaker 1: And if it inspires one person to get off of
42:44
Speaker 1: the couch, get off of their phone and to have
42:46
Speaker 1: their own version of nonsense, I think is important, you know,
42:51
Speaker 1: especially for us. You know, men need a purpose. We
42:54
Speaker 1: need to be out doing good in the world and
42:57
Speaker 1: showing that to future generations and to be doing difficult
43:01
Speaker 1: things and hard things. And you guys are doing exactly that,
43:04
Speaker 1: and you're doing it with cool trucks, and you're doing
43:07
Speaker 1: things that have never been done before. And that, I mean,
43:10
Speaker 1: it inspired me to read about what you guys were accomplishing.
43:13
Speaker 1: I mean, these are things that I've looked into and
43:15
Speaker 1: to see that you guys have accomplished. It is just awesome.
43:18
Speaker 1: It's just honest.
43:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really agree that it's really fun. It's a
43:21
Speaker 2: great group of folks. We have a.
43:23
Speaker 3: Phenomenal woman who does our logistics, forts Megan Hines, who's
43:27
Speaker 3: well known in the outdoors community.
43:28
Speaker 2: Sophie Rohardam as a filmmaker.
43:31
Speaker 3: She's an incredibly gifted filmmaker and we're thrilled to have
43:35
Speaker 3: her with us.
43:36
Speaker 2: She is from the Netherlands.
43:38
Speaker 3: It's going to get really sporty when we start crossing
43:40
Speaker 3: the Indonesian islands and we kind of go from amphibious
43:43
Speaker 3: to land based mode a lot. But really the part
43:46
Speaker 3: that everybody's anxiously awaiting is going to be the crossing
43:49
Speaker 3: of the Darwin String, right four fifty miles of open
43:52
Speaker 3: ocean from Timor to Darwin, Australia.
43:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really going to be the.
43:57
Speaker 3: Full test of These vehicles are vessels. Actually they are
44:01
Speaker 3: registered as boats in addition to registered so they have
44:04
Speaker 3: dual registrations and boats as well as cars or trucks.
44:07
Speaker 3: But yeah, when we when we cross that four hundred
44:10
Speaker 3: fifty miles where you know it's thirty five hundred feet
44:13
Speaker 3: of depth below you.
44:15
Speaker 2: You know, that's where it's it's going to be interesting.
44:17
Speaker 1: Car were doing Car.
44:19
Speaker 2: We obviously fantastic right weather windows to make sure we'll
44:23
Speaker 2: do it.
44:25
Speaker 1: And is there is there a shorter distance between like
44:28
Speaker 1: to Papua New Guinea or is that the shortest?
44:30
Speaker 2: That really is the shortest distance.
44:32
Speaker 3: So yeah, the saltwater crocodiles, great white shirts. Anything over
44:37
Speaker 3: two meter c's will be pretty rough for us if
44:40
Speaker 3: it's anything more than a few hours.
44:42
Speaker 2: But I think it's going to be a great adventure.
44:45
Speaker 3: It'll be a brutal slog because we'll run them twenty
44:48
Speaker 3: four to seven for that crossing. You know when we
44:51
Speaker 3: went most of the rest of the trips we stop
44:52
Speaker 3: overnight and stay somewhere along the route. Sure, we won't
44:56
Speaker 3: do that on this crossing. We'll just keep at it
44:59
Speaker 3: till we get over, and we'll tape drivers and sleeping.
45:02
Speaker 1: Now, you guys are using classic Defenders, and it sounds
45:06
Speaker 1: like they've been repowered. Do you know what engine that
45:08
Speaker 1: they put in them?
45:09
Speaker 2: The two and a half liter TD Oh.
45:11
Speaker 1: Okay, the three hundred TDI sure that makes sense, such
45:14
Speaker 1: a reliable motor.
45:16
Speaker 2: Yes, And so that's what's in them.
45:18
Speaker 3: Now we other than a clutch issue, we've completed London
45:23
Speaker 3: to Istanbul and Istanbul Tbilisi with zero breakdowns, which for
45:30
Speaker 3: anybody that drives land rovers, you know, to do a
45:33
Speaker 3: couple thousand miles or several thousand miles like that without
45:36
Speaker 3: a breakdown is kind of unheard of. Yeah, you know,
45:40
Speaker 3: and we were able to do that. So that's been
45:42
Speaker 3: that's been really really good.
45:44
Speaker 1: And that's the right truck to do it in. I mean,
45:45
Speaker 1: those are they're so mechanically simple. I mean, certainly the
45:49
Speaker 1: turn signals might stop working, but that engine is very
45:52
Speaker 1: reliable for sure.
45:53
Speaker 3: So you know, we we'll go back later this late summer,
45:56
Speaker 3: early fall and we'll do the stands, yeah, up to
45:59
Speaker 3: the China border.
45:59
Speaker 2: That will be Leg three, and we'll see.
46:01
Speaker 3: How we do in the heat, that desert heat across
46:04
Speaker 3: the stands.
46:05
Speaker 2: But it'll be fun.
46:06
Speaker 1: Nonetheless, I's such a beautiful part of the world. Hopefully
46:09
Speaker 1: you'll get a chance to go through the walk on
46:11
Speaker 1: Corridor and experience those remote areas. It's just beautiful.
46:15
Speaker 3: So one of the challenges in this expedition is the
46:18
Speaker 3: trade off of time versus seeing some of the more
46:22
Speaker 3: unique sites and it's always a discussion we.
46:25
Speaker 2: Have while we're en route.
46:26
Speaker 3: Do you take the extra time to do the route
46:29
Speaker 3: that may be the more scenic or more.
46:31
Speaker 2: Interesting route, or are you trying to finish?
46:34
Speaker 3: And so you know, if I come back to where
46:38
Speaker 3: we started on this, which was one of the things
46:40
Speaker 3: you learned from the intelligence agency, I think the intelligence work,
46:43
Speaker 3: the last thing I'd say is let's have clarity around
46:46
Speaker 3: your goals, right And in this case, the goal does
46:49
Speaker 3: remain London to Sydney, a thing that nobody's done, and
46:52
Speaker 3: it's not about the side quest that might be available
46:56
Speaker 3: along the way. And so whenever we're having a discussion
46:59
Speaker 3: about it, we've got to remind ourselves of what we're
47:02
Speaker 3: actually here for. So we're missing some things we'd like
47:04
Speaker 3: to spend some more time on. But we can always
47:07
Speaker 3: go back and do some of those things. We may
47:09
Speaker 3: never be able to do this thing.
47:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can so appreciate the challenge of that. It's
47:15
Speaker 1: been you know, twenty years of my travels of just
47:19
Speaker 1: like looking at that road going off to the left
47:21
Speaker 1: or to the right and wishing that you had more
47:23
Speaker 1: time to go see it, or missing some significant historical
47:27
Speaker 1: location because you just can't. You can't do it all.
47:30
Speaker 1: So I've definitely been a stone skipping across the surface
47:33
Speaker 1: of the planet for a long time.
47:35
Speaker 3: So, yes, exactly. I think it's a great way to
47:37
Speaker 3: put it. But it's you know, there's a lot of
47:39
Speaker 3: the planet to see, and so you're always making those
47:42
Speaker 3: trade offs.
47:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, you absolutely are. So I know you're you're very
47:46
Speaker 1: well read. Are there some books that you and actually
47:50
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to this question is are
47:51
Speaker 1: there any books that you've written? First off? And then
47:54
Speaker 1: are or are there books that you have on your
47:56
Speaker 1: shelf that you come back to often that you really
47:59
Speaker 1: have a love for.
48:00
Speaker 3: That's a great question. I mean, so I've not written
48:02
Speaker 3: anything myself. Well, that's not true. I wrote a book,
48:05
Speaker 3: a booklet about travel that's really about how to encourage
48:08
Speaker 3: people to take ownership of traveling safely, fairly, easy read.
48:12
Speaker 3: You can actually download it for free at the James W.
48:14
Speaker 3: Foley Legacy Foundation cool. The goal is to give people
48:19
Speaker 3: better information for decision making so they they're less likely
48:21
Speaker 3: to become unjustly detained own your decisions, So anybody who
48:25
Speaker 3: wants to can go download that from that website for free.
48:28
Speaker 2: You know, books that I keep coming back to. I
48:31
Speaker 2: have Robert Rourke.
48:32
Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of some of the Africa focused
48:34
Speaker 3: writers in the hunting community.
48:36
Speaker 2: So Robert Rourke wrote a book called The Old Man
48:38
Speaker 2: and the Boy. I love that book.
48:40
Speaker 3: It's really about a grandfather and a son building a
48:43
Speaker 3: love for the outdoors.
48:44
Speaker 2: It's a foundational book for me.
48:46
Speaker 1: What is it?
48:46
Speaker 2: Seven Pillars of Wisdom? T. Lawrence is a great, great
48:51
Speaker 2: read as well.
48:51
Speaker 3: Actually, for me, the Bible is a really significant book
48:54
Speaker 3: in my life, and it's one that I read regularly.
48:57
Speaker 2: And then a lot of fiction.
49:00
Speaker 3: I read a lot of fiction, mainly because of some
49:02
Speaker 3: of my other roles in the intelligence community and supporting
49:05
Speaker 3: filmmaking about intelligence stories. I read a lot of fiction
49:09
Speaker 3: in that space in order to be better informed on it.
49:11
Speaker 1: So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, to stay up to
49:14
Speaker 1: speed on that kind of storytelling. That makes a lot
49:16
Speaker 1: of sense.
49:18
Speaker 3: What I'll often do is when I'm on a trip,
49:20
Speaker 3: I'll bring a couple of books. One will be fictional,
49:23
Speaker 3: just fun kind of past time book, but I'll also
49:26
Speaker 3: bring something that's in the historical front, usually related to
49:30
Speaker 3: an intelligence aspect for that that time frame, so I
49:34
Speaker 3: won't remember the name of the book right now, but
49:36
Speaker 3: on our trans Caspian portion of it, both through Georgia
49:40
Speaker 3: and Azerbaijan and then through Itzbekistan in Kazakhstan, I've got
49:44
Speaker 3: a book about a lady teen early nineteenth century British
49:48
Speaker 3: intelligence officer and his travels in that region.
49:51
Speaker 1: Knowing that I know who you're I think I know
49:53
Speaker 1: who you're talking about. He was Was it the same
49:55
Speaker 1: guy that was the first westerner to get into Mecca.
49:58
Speaker 1: I think his escapes his name escapes me. But at
50:02
Speaker 1: a wonderful book.
50:03
Speaker 2: Yes, So you know, I try to do that.
50:05
Speaker 3: So when you know, when I was in southern Africa
50:08
Speaker 3: and I was going across you know, the Caprivi Strip,
50:10
Speaker 3: and uh I was on a hunt for a kudu,
50:14
Speaker 3: I took green hills of Africa so I could kind
50:16
Speaker 3: of connect in a different way both with the history
50:19
Speaker 3: and the current landscape in order to better.
50:21
Speaker 2: Understand the environment I was in. So I tried to
50:23
Speaker 2: do that.
50:23
Speaker 1: Whenever I can't, yeah, provide such context to what you're
50:27
Speaker 1: about to experience. Sure, if you were to give some
50:31
Speaker 1: advice to maybe your younger self or to someone that's
50:34
Speaker 1: getting ready to begin a life of exploring the world.
50:38
Speaker 1: What would be the couple things that you would share
50:41
Speaker 1: if you were sitting down and having coffee with your
50:43
Speaker 1: a version of yourself at twenty two? What would you
50:46
Speaker 1: say now that you've gotten on the other end of this.
50:48
Speaker 2: I'd say two specific things. Know yourself, know yourself really
50:52
Speaker 2: really well.
50:52
Speaker 3: But you're good at what you're bad at, right, So
50:55
Speaker 3: self awareness and emotional intelligence, I think are a superpower.
50:59
Speaker 3: So invest in that and allow other people to hold
51:01
Speaker 3: you accountable to it, and you will become a better
51:03
Speaker 3: person no matter what. The second piece I would say
51:06
Speaker 3: is no is always an easy answer. No, I don't
51:10
Speaker 3: have time to do this. No I can't help. No,
51:12
Speaker 3: I don't want to go there. But there's way more
51:15
Speaker 3: fun in saying yes. Say yes to adventures and opportunities
51:19
Speaker 3: and you'll have a lot more fun.
51:21
Speaker 2: No is easy, Yes can sometimes be hard.
51:24
Speaker 3: I'll caveat it a little bit with learn to listen
51:27
Speaker 3: to that still small voice inside you that says when
51:30
Speaker 3: know is really important. So I've had so much unexpected
51:34
Speaker 3: blessing success and joy that comes from saying yes until
51:38
Speaker 3: my spirit tells me no, yeah sure, and so say
51:41
Speaker 3: yes a lot.
51:43
Speaker 2: That's great advice yes to your kids.
51:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's so true. How do people find out
51:48
Speaker 1: more about you? How do they find out more about
51:51
Speaker 1: the Defender X expedition?
51:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the easiest thing to do is follow
51:56
Speaker 3: both myself and the Defender X team on Instagram.
51:59
Speaker 2: That's where we do most of are posting.
52:02
Speaker 3: So it's Texas Spy Dad at Instagram for me and
52:05
Speaker 3: Defender dot X on Instagram. Then we also have a website,
52:09
Speaker 3: Defender x dot com, but it's probably well as one
52:13
Speaker 3: expedition behind being updated right now, so you'll get far
52:16
Speaker 3: more current information, better videos, better photos on Defender dot
52:20
Speaker 3: X on Instagram. Those are really the two most current
52:24
Speaker 3: places to follow what we're doing.
52:26
Speaker 1: Well, Doug, it has been an honor to chat with you.
52:29
Speaker 1: You've lived an extraordinary life and the fact that you
52:32
Speaker 1: chose your wife and your family speaks a lot to
52:35
Speaker 1: your character and it's a reminder to all of us
52:37
Speaker 1: to make those hard choices in life, do difficult things,
52:41
Speaker 1: seek a little bit of joy, learn what to say
52:43
Speaker 1: yes to and I look forward to hearing more and
52:46
Speaker 1: maybe we get a chance to chat again when the
52:48
Speaker 1: expedition is all finished. But what an accomplishment.
52:52
Speaker 2: Thank you, Scott.
52:52
Speaker 3: I really appreciate you having me on and I love
52:55
Speaker 3: what you guys do and how you encourage folks go
52:57
Speaker 3: out and do this.
52:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much, Doug, thank you all for listening,
53:01
Speaker 1: and we'll talk to you next time.