Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Lee Brainard: Apostasia - Rapture Or Rebellion?

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Lee Brainard: Apostasia - Rapture Or Rebellion? · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity, no topic, off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Brothers and sisters in Christ, thank you for tuning in to another episode.
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  I have another great topic that we're going to talk about, but first I want to remind
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  you again, I've been reminding you, over at the World View Matters YouTube channel, we
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  just did a conference a few weeks ago and now all the sessions are up there from the World
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  View Matters Conference kicking off with Alex Newman and other amazing men and women of
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  God. They're all up there, even I believe even the speaker panels, the Q&As, they're up
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  there as well.
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  If you want to go check those out again, World View Matters, David Firazzo.
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  There it is, the conference speakers, the sessions are up.
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  It's free.
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  It won't cost you anything and it'll bless you and help equip you.
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  So check those out if you get a chance.
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  So my brother Lee Brandard is back with us today and the website is soothekeep.info, soothekeep.info.
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  He is also over on the substack, which many people are joining, so that's a good place
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  to get the latest from Lee as well.
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  But there's a brand new book.
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  It's actually a revision.
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  I'll let him explain all that and why called apostasyah in 2nd Thessalonians 2,3, rapture
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  or apostasy.
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  Well, let's talk about that.
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  We haven't talked about that in quite some time, so it's a great topic.
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  Lee, good to see you again.
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  Thanks for your time today, brother.
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  David, it's great to be with you on World View Matters.
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  Yep, I've been seeing you at other conferences and speaking and good to see the books come
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  out.
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  In fact, it's out fully now just when we were recording this, it just came out so people
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  can get it on Amazon, apostasyah, just look up Lee Brandard.
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  So I'll start with the first question.
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  You already wrote something about this topic, but felt it necessary to add information
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  or revise the book and put it out again, and it's all about the meaning of one word.
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  So why?
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  Well, first of all, just why we'd even take up this subject is that obviously this is
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  not the gospel, it's not a foundational issue of Christianity, and it's not even one
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  of the core points of dispensationalism.
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  However, it's a good example to illustrate the historical grammatical hermeneutic, the
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  right approach to interpreting the Bible.
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  It's a great example to illustrate the scientific method.
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  Are we going to take a small pile of evidence, selective use of evidence, and ignore the
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  big pile of evidence?
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  Are we going to use the historical grammatical hermeneutic, which takes everything on the
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  subject in one pile and digest it all?
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  Are we going to take a superstitious hermeneutic, which takes a little bit of evidence, and
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  this is the hermeneutic they use for the flat earth.
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  These are hermeneutic they use for the King James only.
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  That's really the foundational issue, and that's why I would address this question.
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  Now why did I do a revision of it?
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  People ask me, well, brother, you did this whole book and told us what apostasy isn't,
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  but you didn't really tell us what it is.
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  So I, a brand new chapter that addresses what apostasy is.
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  It's the apostasy that's instigated by the Antichrist in the tribulation.
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  So I think it's going to be a very clear book.
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  It's a very easy read, and the chapters are bite-sized.
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  I think this is a good time to point out that if you go to Second Thessalonians or any book
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  in the Bible, but for our context, big word context today, it's Second Thessalonians,
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  or two, there are no numbers.
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  When these letters were written to the churches, when the Bible was written, there were no chapters,
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  numbers, or no numbers to verses, so everything's got to be in context.
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  Is that helpful to put it that way, Lee?
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  I think so.
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  I think we need to understand that we don't want to be leaning on artificial crutches
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  that were not added for bad reasons, added for good reasons, but we can't lean on them
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  like they were divinely inspired.
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  So if you just read through this whole thing, the context starts to be eating a chapter
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  one, and it's on the day of the Lord, you come to Second Thessalonians 2, 3, and we have
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  that section of verse 1, to verse 3, is giving us a little blessing that we are not going
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  to be going through the day of the Lord.
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  We're going to be going up before the day of the Lord, and then he reverts back to the
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  subject of the day of the Lord, coming at it from the donning of the day of the Lord,
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  or the tribulation, which is the time of the Antichrist.
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  And so we've got the rapture right in between chapter 1 and chapter 2.
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  We have a small island of hope in the middle of the day of the Lord context.
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  So the main controversy is the apostasyah and the rapture, correct?
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  Yes.
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  So there are people that say that the King James reading, except the falling away come
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  first, is incorrect.
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  It's begging the question.
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  It's saying that we know for a fact it's apostasy, they want us to read departure.
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  So it should, they're saying it should say, except the departure come first, then you
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  take the word departure and you look at the context and you decide, is this a physical
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  departure, like physically departing the earth in the rapture, or is it a spiritual departure?
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  And it sounds reasonable and plausible when you first hear it.
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  And that's what the purpose of this book was to show that you can have an answer that
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  sounds good, but the facts don't substantiate it.
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  Okay.
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  So the main arguments and then the shortcomings, what are the shortcomings of the main
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  arguments for the rapture view of apostasyah?
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  Well, the main arguments are going to use for the rapture view is they'll look at the
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  older English versions, which many of them use the word departure.
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  And they'll say, see, they meant physical departure.
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  And then they will make the claim that the Greek word apostasyah actually meant departure
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  too.
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  And they will quote the second entry in the little in Scott lexicon, which gives the
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  word departure.
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  And so this sounds actually pretty good.
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  And you go, wow, when I, when I first heard this theory, I thought, boy, I hope this
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  is true.
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  This is pretty amazing.
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  But I had a gut feeling simply because I've been reading quite a week for four decades.
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  It didn't sound right.
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  And when I came to my investigation, I discovered that this argument really has a lot of weaknesses.
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  First of all, it's simply not true that all of the early versions use the word departure.
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  If you look at a critical edition of Wycliffe's Bible, for instance, the foreshall and maddened
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  edition, you'll discover that most of the early manuscripts used the word dissension,
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  which is the same thing as a falling away or a falling apart.
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  And some of them use dissension and departure right next to each other, one of them first
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  and the other in brackets, indicating they regard them as synonyms.
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  In fact, this reading goes all the way back, exubstantiated back to 1300 long before Wycliffe.
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  So that's arguments not true.
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  But also, if you look at these English Bibles, you discover something amazing.
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  The commenters in the Bible, the editors, in the introductions to Second Thessalonians,
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  in the preface, the Second Thessalonians chapter 2, in the marginal notes, in the foot notes,
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  continually pointed out that they believed that this was a departure from the faith, and
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  it was a synonym with falling away in apostasy.
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  Wow.
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  Wow, this goes so beyond just a simple version or translation of the Bible when you talk
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  about editors and commentaries, and especially when you mentioned the New King James,
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  but go back to something from it.
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  You mentioned the little in Scott.
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  Why is the little in Scott entry so misunderstood?
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  Why tell us about that?
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  Because I'm not familiar with with with with the little in Scott lexicon is anyone that's
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  a serious Greek student is going to have one on their shelf.
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  Even if they only use it once or twice a year, it's a massive poem.
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  It's a classical lexicon.
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  So it does have coin A stuff in it and New Testament and Petristic stuff, but it's trying
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  to be an exhaustive lexicon of all the classical literature, so say from Aristotle Herodotus
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  area earlier.
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  But it's very useful.
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  When you look up the word apostasia and you go to the second entry, it gives the reading
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  departure.
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  But what's really interesting about this is let me pull this information up here.
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  Sure.
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  The second entry says departure, disappearance, and then it's Olympiadorus in Aristotle's
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  meteora commentary.
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  In other words, it's in Aristotle's commentary on meteors.
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  And if you look at the context, it's talking about it's a scientific work.
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  So it's the wrong genre.
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  It's not religious.
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  And it's in the sixth century.
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  So it's five centuries too late to regard it as is significant for the New Testament.
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  And it's the context is the evaporation of liquids from solids when heat is applied.
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  And so the departure is evaporation.
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  It's a scientific sense.
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  So it's five centuries too late.
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  It's in a scientific context.
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  And it's evaporation has nothing to do with physical departure of human beings from
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  point A to point B.
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  Wow.
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  Not many people, I mean, I think before we got on the podcast, you were saying a lot of
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  people have written on this topic, but have defined this in a different way.
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  And that's why you're clarifying, which is why your book is important, the use of apostasia.
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  So you say that from 250 BC to AD 500, that's 750 years from 250 BC to AD 500 never used,
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  the word was never used for physical departure.
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  Do I understand that?
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  That's right.
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  Yeah, that's exactly right.
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  So when I decided to investigate this, I don't like to come to an issue like this and
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  just spend five hours reading one side, five hours reading the other side, flip a coin
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  decide who I think is right or say, well, I like preacher A better than preacher B, which
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  is the way so many people resolve a controversy.
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  Yeah.
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  I decided I'm going to get to the bottom of this.
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  I'm going to go right to the horse's mouth.
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  And I decided to look at every instance of apostasia from its first instance, all the
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  way to 500 AD.
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  It took me two years of research.
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  I looked at 283 passages in coin a Greek read them in their context and translated about
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  40% of these passages into English because they didn't have existing English translations.
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  And I found English translations for about 60% of them.
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  The body of the book is only about 120 pages.
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  I have about 260 pages or 280 pages of technical footnotes and dependencies.
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  All that information is there.
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  But from Archimedes, work the sand reckiner in 250 BC give or take a few years until 8500.
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  There were zero instances of apostasia being used in the sense of physical departure.
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  It had a handful of technical senses which were rare because the technical senses were
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  usually taken care of by the Greek word apostasis.
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  So there was one use in the sense of distance, which was Archimedes himself and it was never
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  used in that sense again for the rest of Greek history.
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  Then we have 13 times it was used in the medical sense of an abscess.
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  It was used a few times in the sense of divorce which was normally covered by the Greek
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  word apostasy on.
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  The rest of the time, 7% of the time I think it was.
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  It was used for political rebellion and 93% of the time.
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  It was used for religious rebellion or rebellion against God.
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  So it was never used for physical departure.
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  The technical senses don't apply.
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  So right here, the 93% chance based on its usage over 750 years, 93% chance without even
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  looking at the context that it's spiritual rebellion.
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  Wow.
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  This is really interesting and far back as you go, it's really amazingly you brainiac.
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  So you said something in the notes here.
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  It says apostasia used with active slash middle reference, not passive.
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  And then you said men commit apostasy.
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  The rapture is men being taken by God to heaven.
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  Why is that important?
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  Well, when you look at all the uses of apostasia when it's actually being used to people, apostasia
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  is something that men do.
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  They're either committing an active apostasy, which is like idolatry, or they're committing
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  apostasy from God, which they're separating themselves from God so that you got both
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  the active or the middle force.
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  But when you come to the rapture, that's God grabbing mankind and taking the believers
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  in their glorified bodies to heaven.
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  That's a passive transaction.
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  And so if you have 750 years of apostasia use, where everything between the first use and
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  the last use, everything in between those two uses is active, not passive.
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  Then you can't take one passage in the New Testament and say, we think this one's passive.
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  So what about the early church fathers?
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  I mean, did they have writings outside of scripture?
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  What were the traditions that they believed about this?
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  Yes, very, very great question.
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  You would think because the church fathers argued back and forth over every question that
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  we argue over, they argued over whether one taken on one left is the rapture or being
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  left behind, they argued over a lot of points like that.
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  And they weren't afraid to call other people lunatics or crazy for disagreeing with them.
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  When we come to the apostasia issue in 2nd Thessalonians 2, 3, we discover that none of
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  them advocated for a physical departure.
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  None of them mentioned physical departure as a possibility.
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  None of them argued against it.
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  None of them ridiculed it.
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  They never heard of that interpretation.
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  Not one of the church fathers mentioned it.
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  Not in Greek or the Latin.
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  So when you come to this question, you realize that they dealt with it only from the sense
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  of rebellion.
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  Some of them looked at it as political rebellion because some of the early church believed
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  that the restrainer was the Roman Empire and when the Roman Empire fractured that was
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  a restrainer being removed and the Antichrist would come forth, most of them believed that
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  the restrainer, similar to us, was basically the church or God.
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  And then when that restrainer is removed, the Antichrist would come forth.
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  So they all looked at as rebellion, either political rebellion or apostasy rebellion in the
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  last days in association with the Antichrist.
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  Every last one.
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  Wow.
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  That's amazing too.
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  You've got a lot of evidence seemingly from what you've studied and researched.
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  And I know it's in the pages of your book.
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  I want to mention again, friends, the book is on Amazon apostasyah in two Thessalonians
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  three just came out within the last week or so.
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  Lee Brainer can be found at soothekeep.info, more information and articles and more of his
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  background and books and everything else, contacting there.
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  So well, let's move on to the day of the Lord because we're still hanging out here in
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  the second Thessalonians.
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  It goes from first Thessalonians to second without the numbers, but it's still flowing.
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  And the man of lawlessness, can you clarify what seems to be confusing to people between
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  the day of the Lord and then the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed?
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  Yeah, one of the difficulties we face is that in verse two, we, in fact, I'll just pull
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  this up.
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  So in verse two, we, first of all, we've got a technical question, should it be the day
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  of Christ or the day of the Lord?
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  The King James, New King James have the day of Christ and the modern versions have day
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  of the Lord.
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  Now typically I side with the Byzantine text against the modern text.
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  I am a Byzantine text guy, but there are instances where the Byzantine text is divided.
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  And here it's divided, it's 50, 50 divided.
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  So if you go to the early versions, you'll find that all of the early versions have day
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  of the Lord.
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  And some of the early versions go all the way back to the early Latin prior to 200 A.D.
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  that was used by Tertullian.
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  And so that answers that question and all the old unseals have day of the Lord.
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  So we can run with the day of the Lord.
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  It's, to me, that's a slam dunk.
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  So then in verse two, we read, don't be shaken in mind as if the day of the Lord was
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  here.
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  So Paul saying, don't let anyone worry you or trouble you as if the day of the Lord was
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  here, that you're in it.
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  He said, you're not in it.
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  In verse three, he gives a reason.
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  Let no one deceive you, but any means for that day is not here.
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  You have to put the same verb in the ellipsis in verse three that you found in verse two.
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  You can't put the future in there like many modern versions do.
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  You can't, an ellipsis has to have the exact same verb as it was in the verse before.
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  So it's letting no man deceive you for any means that day is not here unless the falling
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  away come first and the man has sinned and revealed.
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  So if you look around and you see the Antichrist, you were in the day of the Lord.
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  You were in the tribulation.
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  If you look around and you don't see the Antichrist, then you are not in the tribulation.
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  You are not in the day of the Lord.
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  And it doesn't matter how severe the persecution is that you're facing.
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  So to me, this is a very clear passage and that's, that's really a blessing.
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  We're going up in the rapture.
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  We are not going through the day of the Lord.
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  So it's interesting to me.
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  One of my favorite translations has been the new American standard, probably because that
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  was the first Bible I bought in 1981 and I still have it.
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  What is it?
• 20:13
  The Charles Ryry study Bible, man.
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  I still have that.
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  Oh man, that was a classic falling apart and everything.
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  But the words in verse three, it will not come are in italics.
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  Yes.
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  It's interesting.
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  So what would be the purpose for that?
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  It's like there are other meanings or possibilities or what do you think?
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  So that's the ellipsis.
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  Now we use ellipsis all the time in English.
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  I could say yesterday I caught eight brown trout when I was fishing and today I caught five.
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  So we didn't say brown trout again and we didn't even insert fishing again.
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  People just understand it.
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  Greek does the same thing all the time, although some of their elliptical patterns seem odd
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  to the English hearing.
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  So verse two says that the day of the Lord, as though the day of the Lord is here or
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  had come, we have to put that same thing in verse three.
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  So in verse three, we would supply that day is not here because it's negated.
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  So it is not here unless you see the falling away and the antichrist.
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  So you have to supply it.
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  When you supply, it's the Greeks requires you to use the same noun or the same verb in
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  the same tense.
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  So in some translations, you're saying they're using different tenses.
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  So they'll have the past perfect in verse two and you can translate the perfect by the
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  past perfect or the present perfect and which for here is here or is present is both present
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  and present perfect.
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  But when you come to verse three, you have to have the same verb.
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  You'll have to have the past perfect has come, the present perfect is come.
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  You have to have that whatever you have in verse two, you should have in verse three.
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  Most of the translations have the future tense in verse three and that really I think gives
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  us a misleading idea because he's not saying that when you see the antichrist, then the
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  day of the Lord is on the horizon.
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  He's saying, if you see the antichrist, you are in the day of the Lord.
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  Wow.
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  That's a good explanation.
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  What you just said, friends, if you're watching on video anyway, go back and rewind about
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  30 seconds, do a minute there and get that understanding of it.
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  The tense is so important.
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  And as it is for a lot of scripture, this same exercise that you're going through, so
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  important for other scriptures, okay, we've got about four and a half minutes left.
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  You said at the beginning of the podcast, this is not a central issue to the gospel and
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  our salvation.
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  But as believers, it's good to know and understand the differences in translations and what we
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  can do when we're reading our Bibles, when we're studying a certain translation to compare.
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  Can you give us a little encouragement there and what we can do, what we can look for?
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  Yeah, absolutely.
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  I think there's a value in someone having two, three, four literal translations instead
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  of just one.
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  Obviously, you're going to have the one that you go to, your favorite, and you're going
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  to lean on that more than the rest.
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  But you'll look up the same passage and other literal translations.
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  And it's useful to use whether you're going to have a shelf full of commentaries or whether
• 23:42
  you use the commentaries in a website like Blue Letter Bible to look at commentaries
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  of people who actually know a little Greek or Hebrew, if you're in the Old Testament.
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  And they can point out places where translations can be improved.
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  And if you use your God-given wisdom comparing scripture with scripture, you'll see that, yeah,
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  that's probably true.
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  So we don't have to be thrown in this issue.
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  We don't have to approach this issue and think, well, how am I going to understand it if
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  I'm not a Greek scholar, lean on the English translations, and lean on the scholars that
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  give us help in the commentaries.
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  It's actually a great blessing.
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  Okay, so I know you're speaking all over the place and kicking things off for the summer.
• 24:22
  Lee Brainer, you were at Rapture in the Rockies, an amazing conference with a lot of great
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  men of God, but for June 4 through 7, and people can still, I think, access that all
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  the sessions.
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  But what you spoke twice, what were you, your two topics?
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  Well, I delivered two messages, which I have never given before publicly.
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  So I'm taking a little bit of a new course.
• 24:44
  I'll be straddling the fence between apologetics and Bible prophecy.
• 24:49
  The first message is called, when the gods broke the calendar.
• 24:53
  It's about the time, an event around 701 BC, when the whole world went from a 360 day
• 25:00
  year to a 365 and a quarter day year, and they had to scramble because their calendars
• 25:05
  were out of sync.
• 25:06
  Their feasts weren't lining up on the right days, and they had all kinds of problems.
• 25:11
  The solar year and the lunar year didn't line up.
• 25:13
  This is why we have solar calendars and lunar calendars, and they're all over the map.
• 25:18
  And then I'm going to explain how this happened, which was planetary catastrophism, and that
• 25:26
  this 360 day year, we're going to go back to a 360 day year in the kingdom.
• 25:33
  Now the second message is called catastrophism in history and prophecy.
• 25:40
  And I'm going to explain how there's been a series of great catastrophes in the Bible.
• 25:48
  We see the flood, we see the Tower of Babel, we see the Sodom Gamora, and we see the time
• 25:55
  of the Exodus, the destruction on Egypt.
• 25:58
  We also see later on a smaller time with David when the mountains melted, and in the time
• 26:04
  it has a chia when the sundown moved back 10 steps, which by the way was not 10 steps
• 26:09
  on a daily sundown, was 10 steps on an annual sundown with, which was five days because
• 26:16
  there's 720 steps on it.
• 26:19
  So and these, these Bible catastrophes line up with the, with the end, with the flood, with
• 26:27
  there's a universal flood in ancient history, it lines up the Tower of Babel lines up with
• 26:31
  the end of the gold age, Sodom Gamora lines up at the end of the silver age, the Exodus
• 26:37
  lines up at the end of the bronze age, and then you'll find that the time of David and
• 26:43
  the time of Hezekiah line up with other major events that were known in ancient history
• 26:48
  in the Iron Age.
• 26:50
  So this will be a tremendous time, really to give people some insight in an apologetic
• 26:54
  issue.
• 26:55
  Wow, that sounds awesome.
• 26:57
  So people can go check those out.
• 26:59
  The messages will probably be online.
• 27:01
  You can access those.
• 27:02
  Lee, thank you for all you do, brother.
• 27:04
  Again, friends, apostasyia is the new revision, the new book.
• 27:08
  Check that out if you haven't before.
• 27:10
  Brother, thanks again.
• 27:11
  Do this again, Lord willing.
• 27:13
  Amen, brother.
• 27:14
  Thank you for the opportunity.
• 27:15
  You're welcome.
• 27:16
  God bless you, friends, and as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.
• 27:20
  See you next time.