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Patty Upton Inspires Generations to Explore · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and I am joined today by
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: an absolutely incredible adventure someone that has been such an
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: inspiration to me. We have Patty Upton with us. We
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: have wanted to get her on the podcast now for
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: years and her story that of her travels with her
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: husband Lauren, are absolutely incredible, including crossing Africa, crossing the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: length of the Americas, and of course crossing the Darien Gap.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: So Patti, thank you so much for being on the
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: podcast with me today.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Scott, I really appreciate it.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: And a special thanks to Warner, home of the Ineos
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Grenadier and the Mercedes Benz Van Center. Warner, whether you're
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: traveling through Canning Country in your sprinter or across continence
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: in your grenadier, Warner has become a trusted stop for
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: serious Overlanders. I have personally serviced my quartermaster at Warner
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: and have seen the work they do to their successful
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: rebel rally competition grenadiers. Matt Scott has experienced Warner iiO
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: helping his father in law by a Grenadier from the
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: dealership a few months ago. Warner has become known for
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: supporting travelers in both grenadiers and sprinters, whether it's outfitting, maintenance,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: or helping with complex expedition builds. I have seen their
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: team contribute to the community through sponsoring events, rebel rally teams,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: vehicle training, and remote technical support. It also helps that
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Tony Warner is an Overlander himself, so he is committed
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: to fitting high quality components and helping fellow travelers. As
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: a thank you for the podcast listeners, they are offering
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: five hundred dollars off a new or used INEOS or sprinter,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: or ten percent off parts and service up to five
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: hundred bucks. Just tell them you heard about it on
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: the Overland Journal podcast. Thanks again, Tony and the Warner
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: team for your support of this week's podcast. Oh You're
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: so welcome and one of the things that I have
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: so loved watching over the last few years. A loss
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: like losing your husband is such a powerful change in life,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: and you chose to not make that the end of
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: the story for you either. You were going to find
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: a way that's okay.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: No. When he passed, we'd always talked about getting out
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: and telling the story of the sand chip discovery because
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: it was his dream to do this. I ended up
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: just going along as a photographer and eventually joining a photographer,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: and it wasn't years later till we actually got married.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: So I've always wanted to travel, so it fit right
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: in my wheelhouse. But yeah, when he passed, I thought
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: we never got out there to do this. I've got
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: to do it, and that's what I've been doing.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: You have, and you have gone to so many Overland
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: expos You've been interviewed, you've been featured in some great publications.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: You've been featured by Overland Journal and our team, and
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: of course our entire team is so inspired by you.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: For me, there's a couple things that come to mind,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: But when we were talking yesterday, one of the things
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: that stood out was what started your passion for travel?
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: And that began with I believe your dad was in
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: the Marines.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Right, dad was Marine Corps. So you had your bags
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: packed every three years, saying okay, let's go where we're
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: going now. And I always liked reading books. I was
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: looking at their library out here in the roadhouse, and
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I have a lot of them. Some of them are
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: my favorite authors. The endurance that one has to be
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: one of the best stories told. Martin and Osa Johnson
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: in Africa. These are people that Earl Markham, Gertrude bell
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: that's missing. I have a copy of Gertrude Belle. I
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: ought to send them. These are anything with Laurence Vanderpost,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: anything like that. The stories I read as a kid,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: and when I say a kid, a teenager. So it
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: just fueled my imagination just to find and maps. I
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: can't stop looking at the map. I love looking at maps.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's me too. It's just something that's in
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: the blood and I just enjoy it.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: And then your story gets more amazing because you were
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: living in the Panama Canal Zone that shut down what
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: were around two thousand or nine.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Nineteen ninety nine was the last December thirty first, ninety.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Nine, sure, because that was like a hundred year agreement
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: with the US government something along those lines. And you
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: were there when it was still being operated by the
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: US government, and you grew up there and even went
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: to college there. Tell us how that experience was of
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: living internationally.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I don't relate to people that have been in one
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: place for any late at the time, which is hard
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: because I've now lived in one place for thirty years.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: So that's very difficult. I've always had people that were
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: in and out of my life because of traveling. And
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: when I got to Panama, my dad was he had
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: retired from the Marine Corps and he was working for
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the government and was transferred down to Panama and it
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: was like we got off the plane. I said, oh,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: this is eternal summer. I love outdoors. I like being outside.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I don't need walls, I don't need any of that
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And you just lived outdoors on your
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: patio for ninety nine percent of the year. Miss Dinner
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: was steaks on the barbecue. You put your Christmas lights
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: up once and never took them down. So yeah, it
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: was my type of a climate. So I did my
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: last year two years of high school there and then
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: two years of college, and I met my first husband
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: and stayed down there. He worked for the Panama Canal
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Company at the time, and just loved it. It was
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: just great. It was eternal summer, it was cool with
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: seventy five degrees.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: And a fairly safe country. Oh yeah, it still is
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: very much.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: And that was something that I didn't have a problem with,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: and a lot of in some people in the Canal zone,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: especially the more the military communities in the canal zone
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: because I worked with military wives and they wouldn't venture
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: outside the canal zone. It was like there was a
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: stigma to going just across an imaginary line. And you
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: can sleep in the canal zone, you can exist in
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: the canal zone, but you had to live in Panama.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: You wanted to go to a good restaurant, you wanted
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: to go out, you want to go four wheeling. All
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: this was outside in that country.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: And it's an interesting place. I remember when I drove
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: through Central America and all of those countries feel similar.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: They're not the same, but they feel very similar. When
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: you go from Honduras into Nicaragua or whatever, it feels
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: very or Guatemala into Belize or whatever, they feel very similar.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: But then when you go into Panama, it is definitely
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: a change. And Panama City even more because it's got
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: financial hub.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: It is it's a big financial hub, but a lot
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: of that dates back many years ago when it was
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: also a money laundering hub. So a lot of those
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: big buildings you see down there were money laundering and
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: this is back in the Noriega era, so but it
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: was always tranquil. Well, there were riots and stuff I
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: can remember saying, I know my ex husband had to
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: go downtown to get a car park. I forget what
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: it was. We lived relatively close to what would be
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: the imaginary border with Panama and the Canal Zone, and
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: he was leaving. I said, stay out of the riot areas.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: You'll stay safe. It was one of those things that
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: you just lived with. It became something you became comfortable with.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: You you knew that the police were going to carry
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: automatic weapons, and you just it was just all a
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: part of life down there.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: But what an incredible place for those formative years for
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: you as a young person and then a young adult
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: and then you know, getting married and having your life
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: develop in a very unique place.
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  Speaker 2: Oh I loved it.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it your story. It touches me a lot
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: because my mom was the daughter of a marine and
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: she loved to travel. She was in her blood too,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: because her dad traveled around the world, and she was
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: part of her childhood was in Guam and all these
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: incredible things. So it's interesting seeing the parallels about how
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: a childhood spent as a child of someone that's in
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the military. It often inspires inspires future tracks.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometime I got to bring in this too
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: with my mom, because my dad was my inspiration for travel.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: But my mother, I always said, she was more like
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: less like June Cleaver. And for those of you that
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: are old enough to know who June Cleavery is, you'll
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: have to look at an old TV program from the
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: sixties and fifties wearing the pearls and the dress and vacuuming.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: My mother was not June Cleaver. She was more like
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: mcgiver And so I took after that too. My sister
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: does the cooking. I don't need that. Yeah, I figure
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: out how something works, make it work, change how it works,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: that sort of thing, and be outside do things.
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  Speaker 1: But how incredible though that that many years later, when
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to meet Lauren and then become
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: a part of the expedition, that you're back in Panama
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: and you're back into mass and the dairy and gap.
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  Speaker 2: When I first met Lauren in seventy five, when he
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: came down on his first expedition, my ex husband brought
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: him home. We were my husband and I were still married,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: and he brought home this guy that was driving this
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: big f four to fifty pickup truck specially outfitted that
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: as soon as you saw that in the dairy in
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Pana in the Canal Zone, you thought, oh my god,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: this guy thinks he's going and he's driving to South America.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: What he's clueless. And my husband and I had worked
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: for the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts and ties with
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: the military people that worked for the military. So my
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: ex husband brought him home, said, this guy thinks he's
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: driving to South America. So we had hooked him up
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: with contacts and he was looking for volunteers to go
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: with him while I was at the right age, but
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: my brain wasn't in the right place. I was recently married,
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: and I thought, I'm working on a career, I've got
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: a home, I'm trying to start blah blah blah. So
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: it was helping him out the way I could. And
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: that trip, of course, was sadly interrupted and ended because
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: a man was shot and killed on that trip.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that if you can.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: I think it's those are stories that oftentimes don't make
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: it to the pages of a book or to the
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: pages of a magazine. So what occurred and how did
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Lauren deal with that? What were the consequences of having
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: that happen.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: It was one of the great sadnesses in his life
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: to have someone shot and killed, but was with him.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: He had met Larry in the canal zone Larry was on.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Larry was about four or five years older than l
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: Lauren was forty at the time. Larry was former military
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: army medic. He had a prosthetic foot from the ankle down,
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: and Lauren was looking for volunteers to go with him
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: through the dary And Gap to help with searching, trail,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: cutting trail that.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Sort of thing, bridge building, everything else.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: And Larry said, I can't really do any of that.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: I'd love to go. He says, well, you can be
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: cook and you can be medic and you won't have
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: to really leave the vehicle, just take care of camp
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: site basically. So Larry said sure, and he and Larry
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: got along really good because they were closer in age
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: than some of these younger kids that were seventeen years
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: old and hitchhiking through and that sort of thing. And
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: as a result, most of these guys, once it became
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: hard work, they all quit. Larry's the only one that
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: stayed with Lauren, and they were all seven miles off.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: When I say in the established road. It was a
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: road I think it was. DevCon was a construction company
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: out of Florida. They were putting the road through to Yavisa,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: and they punched a hole through the jungle. So it
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: had all been felled and cleaned and cleared and bedded
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: and graveled. That was it's and then it was jungle
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: after that. And so there were seven miles off of
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: that road into the jungle, and he broke an entire
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: rear axle housing, not just the axles. And it was
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: the second time. First time he thought mister Ford had
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: built a bad vehicle when it broke. The second time
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: he realized that maybe he had overloaded mister Ford's vehicle
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: and that's what caused it. And DevCon used the same vehicles.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: They said, look, we can get the part for you
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: and ship it in and get you on your way.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: So Lauren had gone. He had to hike out the
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: seven miles to the road, get a ride to the
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: construction camp. So with nothing as nothing works quickly, hell
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: and gone from anywhere most of the time. So he
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: was back and forth between camp and the construction company.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Come back to camp, he'd check in with Larry local
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: natives would be there. They'd bring larry water, they bring
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: larry fruit and vegetables. Laurna go out on trail, cleared
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: trail towards your visa. And this went on for several
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: weeks while he was waiting for parts to come in.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: So he was in and out of camp quite regularly,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: gone for several days, then back for several days, gone
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: for several days, and back. Finally was getting time for
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: the axle store or the axel housing to derive, so
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: he left for the construction camp. And while he was there,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: a guardia came up to me and said, the man
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: that was with you was shot and killed.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: And Lauren couldn't believe it because he'd heard rumors of it.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: He says, no, the man I heard that was killed
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: was closer to your visa. And he says, no, it
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: was the man that was with your vehicle. And they
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: described the vehicle. And so from that point on, and
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: for some unknown reason, they basically arrested Laura. The whole
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: construction camp knew he'd been there for three or four days.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: There was no way. And there was a company journal
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: that everyone would write in, and Lauren would always write
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: in Before he left camp going to construction camp. So
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: they had already and the Gardy already had all this information.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: They had found the body of Larry's laying out on
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: the ground outside the passenger side of the vehicle with
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: a small caliber bullet hole behind his right ear. He
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: had his bible and his pipe and pipe makings and
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: everything and was on the ground. And we've seen enough
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: of how the natives handle their weapons down there. They're
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: not overly cautious. And our assumption is that the group
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: natives had come to camp, had spent the day with
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Larry and said bible'll see you tomorrow or whatever, threw
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: the rifles over their shoulders and left camp and one discharged.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: That's our assumption. We don't know, because no native is
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: going to stand up and say I'm sorry, but it
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: was an accident because everything when the Guardia founded the
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: truck was unlocked everything and they locked what they could
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: up in the vehicle. What they couldn't lock up, they
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: inventoried and took to Ya Visa to their headquarters. Now,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: some of that stuff that was on that inventory, Lauren
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: never got back, so it was anything that missing missing
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: somewhere besides a theft out there. So whoever, whatever happened,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: there was no theft at the vehicle. Yeah, sure, So
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: that put an end to that trip. That it just
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: was a very sad thing and very difficult for Lauren
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: to deal with because and the only saving grace, he says,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: is the fact that Larry was an older man. Yeah,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: he wasn't a seventeen year old kid that Lauren talked
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: into this romantic high adventure. Larry had been around the world,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: he traveled extensively, He'd been in the military, so he
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: knew a little bit.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Of and he was doing exactly what he wanted to
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: be doing at that moment, exactly for sure.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: So that was the only saving grace that it wasn't
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: just some seventeen year old kid he talked into it
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: for a romantic high adventure, and he just it was
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: just a very hard thing for him to swallow.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: And as I remember from researching for this talk, he
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: had Lauren had tried multiple times before your two almost
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: three year journey through the gap that was successful.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Ford was the first one, and then there
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: were two more after that, one and seven and one
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: in seventy seven, one and seventy nine. Both of those
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: were failures for one reason or another. And when and
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: I hadn't heard from him is seventy nine, seventy seven.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: When he came down. In seventy seven, I saw him
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: and that's the last I saw or heard from him
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: until I saw him in eighty four.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Wow, and he was back down in Panama.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Someone said, hey, the guy was trying to go
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: through the Darien gap is back. So I looked him
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: up and again try to help him because husband I
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: were separated by that time, and I thought, maybe I'm
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: ready to do something like this, and he needed a photographer,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: and I said, I can arrange to get off work
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: for thirty days and pay the bookkeeper to be there
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: full time, and then I don't have to be there
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: full time. And he says okay. So I ended up
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: and I had to make sure because I knew Lawrence philosophy,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: I couldn't say I want to go unless my butt
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: was in that seat and we pulled out. It was
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: one of those things that I had to make sure
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: everything was taken care of ahead of time. But when
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: I told him I wanted to go, that I was going.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: To be there, you were going to be able to
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: make it happen, and at that time was the road
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: through to Yavisa yet, yes, yeah, you.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Could get to you. It was one hundred and seventy
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: nine miles from Panama to ya Visa and that took
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: us I think the better part of ten hours to drive.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: It was not anywhere near as good as it is now,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: but it's yeah, so it it was still bailey bridges
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: over some of the creeks, and I think there was
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: one or two creeks that didn't have a bridge. Yeah,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: there were.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was as far south as I could go.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: They wouldn't let me go any further. They're coming Dante's now,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: you can't go any further.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: And now they have a big sign up and all
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: these places, the one at Ushwaya has a big sign
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: and we didn't see any of that. Wanted the equator,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: none of that.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, So let's talk through that. Almost three years, two
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: years and eleven months or something like that, seven and
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: forty one days incredible. So did that involve you guys
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: leaving the vehicle for periods of time and coming back
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: out or repairs? What was what resulted in it taking
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: almost three years?
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: First because we wanted to do it entirely on land,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and finding a land route was the goal to do.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: And because you go down there and you ask a native,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: how do I get from Buka Decupe to Pookaroo, They'll
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: say you get on the river and you go down
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: this river and then you go up the Pookaroo River
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: and whatever. No, that's not what we want to do.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: We need a land route. So then we would hire
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: natives to search. And Lauren learned from his first trip
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: that volunteers are not the way to go. Hiring the natives.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: They know the place. They may not know a land
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: route because they don't venture that far back other than
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: where they're farming or hunting, but they're not going to
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: villages other than by river. But they can read the
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: land and they can read the environment much better than
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: we can't. I always say that we were lost the
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: entire time if it wasn't for our natives that she
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: hired for us, because we had no clue where we
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: were going. And Lauren was very fortunate to have some
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: good men working for him, and so finding that land
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: route was all important. We did have a We got
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: to the village of Pookaroo in late March. We had
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: done thirty seven miles and thirty days and not late March,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: it would have been early March, and this would have
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: been eighty five. And there's a newly it was newly
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: created seventy nine National Park in Colombia, Colls Cothios National Park,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: and that had posed a problem for Lawrence's previous trip and.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Getting permitting in that kind of thing.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, permit was piece of cake. It was the corrupt
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: park official that he had to deal with after he
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: got the permit that didn't go over well, and that
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: vehicles actually abandoned in the jungle and left there.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: So he vehicle was.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: That brand new seventy nine five. Wow, he was still
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: making payments on the previous one that he had also
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: had trouble with, not because of the darien, but further
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: on anyway, we ended up he had to find a
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: root around this national park because we had tried to
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: get permission writing letters and that before we left Panama
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: and we weren't getting anywhere with those katios. So Laurence said, Okay,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: we'll do is, We'll work around the park. We'll see
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: it because there's no bound we don't know where the
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: boundary is. Were just going to do our best to
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: see if we can get so we went on a
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: new route, but first off, rains were coming. Rainy season.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: You don't go through this area. It's hard enough, and
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: people don't realize that even though it's quote unquote dry season,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: you do have a lot of moisture down there on
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: the ground. You've got fallen leaves and debris from the trees,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: and you don't have all sorts of roots that are exposed.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Nothing is smooth, so it's a rough going even when
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: it's dry season. But at least the rivers are usually
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: more manageable during dry So rainy season was coming. So
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: we got to the Pookaroo, which is a Kuna village
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: in Panama, and he decided okay, and the asked permission
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: if he could camp near the village until the next
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: dry season, and they showed him a place that he
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: could camp near the river, close to the village, but
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: not in the village, and that's where he stayed for
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: nine months, living out of the gepcredible. I went back
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: to my job and then I there was a missionaries
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: that had been in Pookaroo but weren't during this time.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: They were on sabbatical. But the pilot it would still
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: fly down to the village on this land, on this
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: little grass strip and take supplies down to the villagers.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: So I arranged with the pilot to take supplies down
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: to Lauren, and I'd put up a care package for
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: the villagers as well, so he would take stuff down
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: to the villagers. And that was for nine months. And
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: then during that time Lauren didn't attempt to try and
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: find a way around the park. Not successful. He wasn't
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: sure if he was successful not, because we don't know.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: There's nothing out there that says they're now entering the
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: national park.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: All we know is when we crossed the border that
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: next dry season, so it'd be dry season nineteen eighty seven,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: most people went this direction. We went basically south. We
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: took a hard rite and basically turned south. At that
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: point we probably could have crossed back into Panama. We
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: don't know, because we were trying a whole new route
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: that had never been done. But we got into some
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: pretty rugged mountains as a result, and that particular dry
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: season we ended with two axles broken. We'd broken both
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: through axles, and we had we knew we were if
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: we had been in the park. We knew we were
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: out of the park because we were beginning to see
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: little tiny farms, and that's where we broke down. Near
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: this we were winching the last day or two and
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: there was this little tiny farmhouse smaller than this room,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: a metal corrugated metal roof and plank sides. And we
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: contracted with the farmer for fifty cents a day to
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: watch the jeep, and we said, we don't know when
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: we'll be back, and he built a little wooden corral
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: around it, and we had a big blue rain tarp
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: that we put up, and that's where she and we
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: took out the whole rear end and Lawrence just to
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: be sure because he didn't know exactly what was going
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: on at that point, so we took out the whole
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: rear end to friends in medi Gine.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: And so you would use horse back to get the
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: axle out.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, her mule donkey horse until we got to a river,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: till we could get it on a boat, to get
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: to a bigger river, to a bigger boat, eventually to
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Turbo where we got it on a bus and then
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to medi Ying.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Incredible, incredible. So in like for the benefit of the listener,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: help describe what was different from you're crossing of the
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Dairying Gap from for example, what Mark Smith did, or
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: from example, what John Blachford Snell did. What would be
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: the differences in those expeditions.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: We would cross a river, but we'd never traveled up
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: or down a river to find a more convenient place
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: to get in or out. Now, with Mark Smith, they
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: came in from the south, which I don't have anything against.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: That's a great idea. However, you're hitting the wettest part
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: of the Darien Gap, Thetroto Swamp, at the very beginning
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: of dry season. Oh, there's a lot of water still
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: out there. There's a lot of swamps still out there.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: They ended up having to go up the Atrodo River
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: from Turbo to Waloma Crystalis area and go by land
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: from that point. So they went I don't know, sixty
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: eighty miles sure up the river till they got to Laloma,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Punta America, l Looma are the names we know from locals.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know if those are what's on a map,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: and then went from there. Now, if they did an
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: other river travel, I don't know, that's the main one
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: where if they go in the other direction, we did this.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: We timed it so that we hit the swamp at
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: the very beginning of rainy season, the tail ended dry
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: season to the point where it was as dry as possible.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: And we were able to find that dry land route
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: through the swamps all the way to the Atrodo River,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: and then right across the river was the town of
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Rio Sussio. And Rio Sussio. We'd gone ahead of time
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: and found out they had what they called a tractor
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: trail thirty eight miles long that went out to a road,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: and so we considered Rio Sussio the nd We crossed
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: the Otrodo to Rio Susio, and that ten thirty eight
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: miles took us ten hours to drive.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Because you were able to do that, it was last
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: we've done in two years. I can imagine you found
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: second year, Yeah, exactly.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: We also found a lot of dirt clogging the few
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: filters because all of a sudden we got some speed
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: and then Blackford smell, they smell. They came in. Now
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: they had a lot further to go because of the
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Bayano era, but they once they reached the Atrodo, of course,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: then they went out by the Atrodo River all the
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: way down to Turbo.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: So that's where most of them do, is they go
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: to Turbo and come up river or get to thettrodo
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: and then go down river.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Where we went in the direction so that when we
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: came out on the Atroto we knew there was road
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: on the other side.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Amazing And from my perspective, like, how did you bring
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: in How did you even find fuel? Because you were
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: burning you had to been just even though you're at
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Idol and exactly, Yeah, that one fuel would have been
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: probably one of the most difficult.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Well, it's the heaviest, of course, and we had purchased
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: a fifty five gallon drum and yavisa and then filled
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: up with gas there before we left, and then transported
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: supplies extra food that fifty five gallon drum all the
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: way up river to Basal and stored it there. And
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: at that time, I think we paid four dollars a
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: gallon for gas because gas down there was all pre mix.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: You could get pre mixed for nothing practically, but not
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: pre mix was a premium. Everything's boats. Yeah, So you
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: would stock pile up in Basal that first dry season
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: and we'd resupply either by sending people by boat to
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: bring it back, or manpower hiking over and bringing back
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: food or fuel. Then the second dry season it was
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: transported by man power because you're really off a river system,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: any major river system going from Pukaroo to Paya to
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: the border, because now you're going all the way up
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: to the top of the mountains, so there's no river system.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: So it's all packed by man up there, including fuel
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: in fifty five gallon drough five gallon containers. And then
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Lauren had gone ahead of time. The logistics of this
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: trip are by far easy, more difficult than winching. If
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: you winch one hill, you can winch twenty hills. But
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: getting everybody fed and fuel was the difficult put. He
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: had gone ahead of time, gone into Columbia and had
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: arranged for mules to meet us at the border and
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: they would wait at them because there that's one Let
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: me just backtrack a little bit. No road through the
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Darien Gap. One of the reasons, in my opinion, is
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: hoof and mouth is still very prevalent in South America
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: and Colombia, the Choco Province of Columbia. It's very prevalent
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: that Darren Gap is a natural barrier right now, Neither
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: country allows hoofed animals to cross over, and sure enough
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: that's where they wait. The Colombians with their mules wait
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: at the border for us. They won't come any further
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: than that. In fact, I don't even think Panama has
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: any hoofed animals that close to the border. That's why
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: we had to go with manpower.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: And then once we were on the mules, then we
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: transported by mules till we could get to a river system.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, moving the supplies incredible. It was more
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: difficult than actually moving the jeepotoe.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because at this point in time twenty twenty five,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: it's only about sixty kilometers between the two roads. Now
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: and how long was your drive?
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: We looked at one hundred and twenty five miles from me,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Yeahbisa to Rio Susia.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so you're close to three hundred miles or
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: three hundred kilometers, So it's significantly shorter now because of
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: all the infrastructure that's come in purely on the Columbi inside,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: they've just gotten closer and closer, closer to the border.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is interesting because yeah, it's it'll be see
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: how I don't think there'll be a road through in
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: my lifetime.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, they've talked about it, so it.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Talked about since I lived in Panama in the seventies.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, So you're right. Logistically it's not something difficult
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: to overcome. But maybe it is the hoof and mouth
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: and just.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Politically and the hoof of mouth I think are the barriers.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Because Lauren was a construction man, roadbuilder, freeway overpasses, box
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: culvert's that sort of thing, and he had talked to
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: people in Colombia and the construction companies down there, and
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: they say there's no reason it can't be built, and
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: they they put a bridge to Key West. I think
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: the across the swamp is not going to be impossible lots,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: not like you can't do it. It's all the politics
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: involved in it, and like I say, the hoof and
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: mouth disease.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: And about the time that you guys were finishing this
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: up in the eighties, there was already some real challenges
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: around gorilla activity.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: They were, Yeah, it was beginning to be noticed. I
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: when we were on the jeep expedition through the gap. Again,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: we tended to mind our own business and stay out
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: of any controversy with anything. We weren't there to cause
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: problems or to convert anybody do anything like that. But
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: our guides would point out that we especially in Colombia,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: not in Panama so much that these big burlap sacks
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: that were being stored outside this house was all marijuana
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: that was being grown and transported further on. We never
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: saw it. I don't know we saw the burlac SAPs.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't know what's in the burlaps. That's what they're
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: telling us.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, most likelihood it was. Yeah.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Now to jump ahead. In ninety five we went back
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: on a two wheel drive American made Rocon motorcycle. We
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: hadn't had enough. We had to do it again. And
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: at that point we did come face to face with
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: the Colombian fark gorilla on two occasions. And we had
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: known people that the missionaries that had lived in Pukaroo,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: they were kidnapped and held for over seven years and
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: eventually killed. Henry, who was a resident of the town
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: of Bookada, Koopie. He was like the biggest little AIRBN,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: not an airbaby, but a bed and breakfast, if you
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: want to call it a bed and breakfast. At that time,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: he had that his wife and he ran a little
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: restaurant and you could sleep on a cot in the
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: back room, that sort of thing. He was shot and killed.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: So we personally knew some people that were kidnapped and
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: shot and killed by the fark gorilla, So we knew
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: that was always a possibility when we went down in
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: ninety five, and yeah, we had two encounters, and to
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: this day we were blessed because we had absolutely no
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: trouble with them whatsoever. They were polite, they were courteous, nothing,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: there was nothing, There was no problems whatsoever. And when
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: we got to Rio Sussio, the Columbian police came right
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: down to the river. One says, did you have trouble
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: in the mountains, And actually we had to tell him no,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: we had no trouble because we didn't because I know
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: what we knew what they were asking for, but we
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: didn't have any problems.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, A special things to Huncook DNA pro Tires for
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: supporting this week podcast. Visit Expedition Portal dot com to
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: see our content series in partnership in hon Kok, where
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: you learn about this year's jeep Beach event in Daytona, Florida.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Get tips on exploring the Ocala National Forest and take
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: a tour of the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: at the Daytona International Speedway. We also take a close
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: look at how to choose a mud terrain, all terrain
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: or hybrid rugged terrain tire using the Honkok Dina Pro
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: tire lineup as examples.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: That has changed a lot even in recent years. The
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: last time that I was in Columbia, they had just
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: voted to free all of the fark, make it where
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: it's no longer an issue. This was probably two thousand
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and sixteen or so is when they had that big vote,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: So that was an interesting time to be in the country.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: There was a lot of kind of split feelings around
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: it because so many people had died through those conflicts.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: But I think they're trying to move beyond it and
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: move beyond it a little bit. Let's go back to
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: the jeep just a second, because I think it's so
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: fascinating that at that period of time in the seventies,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: like most of the significant expeditions were being done by jeeps,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: So like even the first Camel Trophy was done with jeeps.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: He had Mark Smith doing big trips. You guys getting
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: through the Darien Gap in a jeep. And I think
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: it's easy to now in twenty twenty five, think you
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: want to do a bay expedition with a land cruiser
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: or whatever. What was Lauren's interest in the jeep? Why
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: did he decide that was the right tool for the job.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: He was very patriotic. He wanted to do it in
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: one American made vehicle, not a series of them. That's
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: why when the second one he lost in Ecuador, he
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: didn't ship in a new vehicle and start from there.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: He had to do it in one vehicle entirely around
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: the world, American made, and that's why he stuck with jeep.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: And in eighty three when he was looking for the
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: next vehicle, American Motors was owned mostly by Renault.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, the French, and.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: He just diached dust. Doesn't seem like it's an all
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: American company, so whether, Yeah, it was just his personal preference,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: and that's why he bought the sixty six jeep instead
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: of buying a new one.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: I got you, And is that the jeep that's here
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: at the big thing right now? It's the original one.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: It's the original. Everything is still as was when he
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: either put it on there or bought it one of the.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Two patty That is incredible, Like, what a thing, what
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: a thing. It sounds like there was a lot of winching.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: So what winch did you have on the jeep and
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: did it survive the entire dairy and gap? I want
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: to hear about that, because that thing sounds like it
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: did the most of the work.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: That was one of the selling points on that vehicle
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: was that hadn't already had this nine pound Ramsey power
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: takeoff PTO off the transmission so he had four speeds
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: and yeah, because when you're winching, first of all, in
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: places where if you have a dead battery you were yes, rude, sure,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: and you're winching for six hours a day, PTO is
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: the only way to go and.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: It and it never failed. Never.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: I think a sheer pink went one time and yeah,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: something I don't remember. I don't know that much about
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: the mechanical things, but I remember something about the sheerpin
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's designed to fail.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: And whatever it was fixed in the field.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Incredible.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: We did have an issue. We also have a Wi
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Scott two ton come along and we did have an
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: issue with the jeep on what we called Ma as
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: in the pronunciation of the letter M in Spanish. That's
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: according to the natives. We said, They said, this is
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: the Ma river, Okay on that it's extremely steep dropped
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: down to the river, too steep to dry. So Lauren
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: had turned the jeep around backwards, hooked up the winch
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: cable and put it in reverse. So you're just done
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: spooling slowly going down this hill. It wasn't but a
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: couple of minutes into it he realized he had no
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: oil pressure either. What we assume is the rear main
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: seal went. It had to be that because we could
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: add oil to it when we were on the level
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: and it was fine. It was low on oil. So
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: we added oil oil down to the riverbed and it
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: was fine. But anyway, now we're stuck on this very
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: steep pill. We can't run the engine. Without the engine,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: we can't run the wait which sure, so that come along,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: came out and we hand winched the ninety feet down
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: to the river bed in six hours.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Oh incredible.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: And it was another two and it was a total
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: of three hundred and fifteen feet up and down and
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: then up the other side over two and a half days.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: It was all hand winched.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Incredible.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: So again that's why it took seven hundred and forty
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: one days when you're going a quarter an inch every
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: time the guy's pulled on the handle to come along.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: So then when this gets done and you make it
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: through the dairying gap and now you're in South America,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: did you decide at that point in time to join
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: for the rest of the trip through South America?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Actually the third dry season in back up in nineteen
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: eighty seven eighty seven. Yes, my job was being phased
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: out due to the Panama US treaties. They were going
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: to an all volunteer office staff with the Girl Scout office,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: which is what I directed. O ran and I said,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: I need income. I need income. I can't volunteer. So
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I thought the writings on the wall. So I called
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Lauren in the States, because at this time we had
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: the broken axles. I called him in the States. I said,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I can join full time. This was late. Excuse me,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: this was eighty six, because we got out in eighty seven,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: so this was like July August eighty six. I said,
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: I can join full time. He said great. So I
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: joined full time. At that point while I was in
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Panama untill I don't know, September or something, and then
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: included the States. But wow, then, yeah, that's another whole thing.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Getting back to the jeep with the parts, and yeah,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: time is things do not move quickly in third world countries,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: especially in the Daring Gap.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: And in the eighties, communication would have been so much
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: more difficult. You and I talked about that a little
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: bit yesterday. In some ways the trip was a little
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: bit easier because it would have been a little bit
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: safer in general, a little bit less bandit tree, a
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: little bit more stable politically over all, but certainly much
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: more difficult when it comes to communication. There was no
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: sat phones, there was no starlink, there was no GPS.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: No GPS, yeah, nothing. We wouldn't get mail for months
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: at a time, and once when we could get mail,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I would try to phone home and tell Mom we're
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: still alive. That I should think, because she was our
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: base in the States where mail was held, and she
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: would hold it until we told her where to send it.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: What you guys did is it was at the very
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: end of what would have been the blank spots on
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: the map. When it was the communication wasn't possible, at
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: least not quickly. There was so much unknown about how
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: to do those things, or even like where to go. Now,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: if you if I plan a trip, I bring up
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Google Earth, and I can look at satellite imagery and
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: I can see the condition of the I can plan
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: to the nth degree before I even turned the key
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: on the car exactly, or push the button.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: On the car now exactly exactly. We've always said you
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: needed three things to go through the daring game. You
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: need patients, you need determination, and you need money. If
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: you've got a lot of the first two, you don't
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: need too much of that third one. That's where we were.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: We had a lot of the patients in determination. We
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: didn't have that much money. Sure, but if you don't
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: have those first two, you better have boatloads of that third,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: because then you just pay your way through, that's right,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: And that was something we didn't. We would get to
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: places and oh yeah, if we want to pay extra,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: we could get a faster boat, or if we want
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: to pay extra, we'd get a boat today. We got
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: the time, we'll wait, we'll pay the cheaper price, and
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: boat'll come in a day or two.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: And I remember reading about one of the situations that
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: came up with the rocon. You guys had come into
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: a semi autonomous region and the bike had been basically
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: confiscated by the village and at lists five hundred dollars
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: in there, and my first inclination was like, oh, that's
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: not that much money, but this was nineteen ninety five. Yes,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: that was a lot of money in ninety.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Five, and that's what principle on it we had. This
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: was the same village live at. Lauren had lived outside
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: of with the GEP for months, so he knew these people.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: He knew how they worked, we know their customs, they
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: knew we were coming. I had walked to the village
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: ahead of time and they knew we were en route.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: And then before we even entered the village, we had
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: two people with us from the village that were working
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: for us, that walked in with Lauren to ask permission
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: to enter the village and it was granted and we
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: were shown a camping place. So there were a lot
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: of opportunities for them to tell us of this new
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: law that motorcycles had to pay five hundred dollars if
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: they waited till we were in the village, and then
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: they said five hundred dollars. It doesn't matter if you
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: go back the way you came or you're going forward.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so then you feel taken advantage of. But
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: you overcame that, even bring the even brought the police in,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: and then finally the negotiation. They probably were starting to
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: come home.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. They actually eventually they actually sent a
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: letter and said that they would dismiss any any charges
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: because what we were doing. It was actually they met
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: in the middle after the expedition, and these people knew us,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: They trusted us not pay them off until we got
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: back to Panama. They knew they wouldn't get paid toil.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Lauren returned down there to pay them off. Lauren was
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: on his way down there with a letter written in
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Spanish that we felt that this law was just created
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: for us and therefore it was not legal, and that
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: if they wanted to take us to a court of
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: law in Panama City, we would gladly go to a
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: quart of law. And Cookie, our cook on the trip,
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: was headed to Panama with a note for Lauren stating
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: that they had dismissed all charges this time, but to
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: let other people know that there was now a five
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: hundred dollars fee for motorcycles going that was there was
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: one thousand for a vehicle, five hundred for a motorcycle,
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: one hundred for a photographer. They had all these, They
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: had it very by that time. They had the King's
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: work out of it. So they passed and so it
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: worked out that we didn't pay. They never got our note.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: We got their note. Lauren gave the money to Cookie.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Cookie went out and paid off the men got it.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: So everyone was happy in the.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: End, made hole in the end and was the con
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: trip also successful?
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: But I yes it was. But I have not set
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: foot in the village of Pookaroo since that I happened
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: back down there in seventy seven and seventy nine, and
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: I won't go back to the I just don't trust
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: the people.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's too bad.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Hey, there's two people in the village I dearly love,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: and I've sent a guide from another village in and
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: said I would like to meet with them if they
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: want to come, have them come to me, and they've
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: come and spent time with me. But I won't go
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: to Pookaroo. I just it was just a very traumatic
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: experience to have that happen.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you developed those deep relationships and trust with
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: another culture. And yeah, and then to have money corrupt
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: that exactly which money tends to do, doesn't it?
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: It does?
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: It does, So tell me the high points of South America?
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: What was the high points on that? And as a
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: special thanks to you listeners, the Overland Journal podcast is
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: made possible because of listeners like yourself and because of
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: the subscribers to the Overland Journal magazine. So if you
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: go onto Overland Journal dot com you subscribe to the
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: print magazine, you can use the code Overland podcast at
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: checkout for twenty percent off. Thanks again for your support.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I think because we were on such a tight budget,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: there weren't many. I loved the country, but we knew
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: we were on a very tight budget at that point
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: because we were looking at about a six hundred dollars
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: or six thousand dollars excuse me, feet was it six
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: That we had to go to ship back to ship.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: To Africa because we're going to be without the home
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: for thirty days shipping and then our airfare. So yeah,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: it was more than six It was probably six thousand
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: dollars or something. And we knew we at that point
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: we thought we'd get to Africa and have to store
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: the vehicle and both go back to work. But that
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: was the goal, was to at least get to Africa.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: And we had made a contact in Lima with a
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: newspaper there, an English speaking newspaper and gentlemen had written
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: an article in it for us, So we were using
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: that as a calling card. And I started going to
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: shipping agents in Lima and then later in Santiago, Chili
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: when we got down there, and I just got to
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: this one that was Ian Taylor shipping agency and he
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: was It was a British company at that time, and
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: they said leave us your information and contact us in
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: about two weeks. We have to send this to the
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: head office. And I said, okay, fine. We then went
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: on down to Puntoenas, Chili, to the end of the
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: road there, and when we were done, I called back
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: to Ian Taylor and they said, yes, we've got free
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: passage for you and Lauren and the jeep across the
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Atlantic on a freighter.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Incredible.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: So that was like wow, that was the big.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: They saved you the flights and area, the hassle.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I said, it's home when you don't have home.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: You're paying a lot more for your meals and lodging
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: and all that.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: So did you have a like a small room on
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: the ship or did you sleep in the jeeps?
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: No, they gave us the infirmary. Oh, gave us the infirmary.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: On the ship it was a Greek freighter. She was
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: loaded right on the front cargo hatch along with all
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: the containers and oh cool, just latched down, down tight.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: That's where she sat for thirty days across the Atlantic.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: What an experience. The now you're a crossing oceans. Yeah,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: I love that. I learned.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I'm not a sailor.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Fair enough. It can be challenging for sure. So then
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: you guys shipped to South Africa. Is that when you shipped? Yeah,
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: we came into Cape Town and what year was that?
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: That would have been eighty seven. We got there in
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: August or September, first of September.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: That would have been an incredible time to be in
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Southern Africa.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: It was really, it was good. It was. South Africa
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: has a lot to offer.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Beautiful place.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: It's a small country compared to the United States, but
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: it has the diversity that you find in this country
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: you've got desert, you've got mountains, you've got coastal you've
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: got wine country, you've got you have a little bit
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: of everything. That's skiing in the Drakensburg. You have a
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: little bit of everything in a small area.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, beautiful country.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Really spent about six months in South Africa and over
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Namibia just traveling around since we had that a little
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: bit of extra cushion.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Sure of course they were camping and that's it.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and food's pretty cheap then no.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Matter where you are, we don't you can't count food
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: in your budget because you have to eat anyway. So
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: it's not really a priority. I mean, it's there no
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: matter what. But we made some great friends that were
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: still in contact with that now live in this country.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Amazing from South Africa.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of my favorite places in the world. So
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: then you guys drove up the east coast of Africa
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: and you had some challenges in Sudan.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we went through basically the heart of Africa. When
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: we left South Africa because it was under the apartheid government. Still,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: we could only go through Botswana and Zambia because they
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: had relations with Satin. In Zambia, we got new passports,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: and we also went to the Kenyan embassy and we
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: were told that and we had told we were told
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: this before, that there was just no way we were
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: going to get through Tanzania and Kenya because of being
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: in South Africa.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Because you had been stamped in this even though you
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: were American citizens, and we had.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: A carne as well, and that was all recorded, and
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: they said that if you show up at a border
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: either Kenya or Tanzania with a passport newer than six months,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: because they knew people were getting new passports, they had
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: to see the old passport. And we said, okay, fine,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: So right through the center of the country which Zaire is,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: which is now trained back to I think the Congo
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: or Republic of the Congo or something. It's very difficult
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: for me to keep up. Who's what, very difficult country,
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: very difficult because it was so poor and roads were
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: absolutely horrendous.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: You're back in the Darien Gap against just about it.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Was four thousand miles of four wheeling through Africa six.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Months And where did you so then did you connect
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: back up into Ethiopia And that's no.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: We actually we went through I'm looking at your map,
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: we went through the center of Zaiyir. We had to
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: swing over in Rwanda for a day because there was
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: a road. We were told by some overlanders that were
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: coming south that there was a section of road that
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: was really we had bad springs. We had problems with
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: springs at the time. They said, don't go between these
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: two towns. Go over into Rwanda. The roads are much better.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: And then you come out of Goma and they and
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: you're back on a little bit better road. So we
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: ended up doing that and then over to Kissing Gani
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: and then crossed into the Central African Republic because we
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: had to go to Bangi that's the capitol, right, Okay, yes,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: because we had to go to the Sudanese embassy to
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: get a visa for Sudan. And everyone we had talked
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: to because most of these overlanders at this time are
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: all Europeans coming through and they said it takes six
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: months to get a visa to get into the Sudan
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: and we're thinking, oh, this isn't going to be good.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: And we went into the Sudanese embassy in Sudan and
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: literally we walked in. Guy at the desk, told him
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: what we wanted. He said, leave your passports come back
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: this afternoon. Three four hours later we had visas going
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: into Sudan, so it was our time to do with this.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: It was then going east through Central African Republic into Sudan.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: We came in at Nyala, and then it was east,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: pretty much east and slightly north going to Khartoum. We
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: actually yeah up to Khartoum that way, and the last
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: maybe two days of the trip or three days to Khartomb,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: I had gotten very sick and was basically out. The
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: only wayson I know what happened is because I can
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: read Lauren's journal and he writes in his journal. We
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: could sleep in our jeep. Difficult, but we could do it,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: and he made up the bed so that I could
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: sleep while he drove. This was June and it was
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: quite warm. And we got to Khartoum and got to
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: a clinic and I was diagnosed with malaria and I
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: made a dysentery that's a combo, yeah, and was kept
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: there for three days while they gave me the massive
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: overdose of the malaria pills.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: And yeah, those are big pills. I'm glad I've never
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: had to take one yet, but I was half them
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: with me, but the giant.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we had been taking pills since we left South Africa.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Got it, but it was taking us longer to get
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: through Africa than we had anticipated, so we ran out Central.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: African republics oh no and right there.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, who's to say. And we were also told
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: that so many of the pills nowadays the mosquitoes are
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: becoming resistant to So it's a flip a coin whether
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: you're going to get it or not. So I was
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: hospitalized there in Khartom for several days before we got
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: before I got out, and then it was a couple
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: of weeks getting stuff organized and me still recuperating, and
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: then would you get.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: North visa for Egypt? At that point in time, we.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Got the paperwork, We made a contact with a gentleman
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: who is a Sudanese businessman and his wife worked for
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: the Egyptian embassy. Time it was she was fantastic because
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: she gave us a letter of introduction and that saved
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: our little bacon because when we crossed into Egypt, there's
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: we didn't even know we were in Egypt. We literally
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: were driving through the desert and there's a black strip
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: running east west way up in front of us. There's
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: no other geographical markers of any kind. And I'm looking
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: at the map and he says, Laurren says, it's a
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: railroad tracks and I'm saying, oh, there's no railroad tracks.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: It's a pipeline. No, it's not a pipeline. And we're
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: getting closer and closer to this black It was an
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: asphalt road. Wow, but it was built up a little
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: bit sure, and it was just poured on top of
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: the sand. But it was running east to west and
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: we thought that's weird because we assumed that if we
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: hit a road it would be going north to south.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: We said, the Niles to the east, obviously, that's the
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: way we want to be turned that way and ended
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: up at a military outpost and they had no clue
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: what to do with us because they hadn't had anything
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: like this that wen. We got this letter and they said, okay, fine,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: but you're going to be under house arrest and we
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: get you to Aswan where you can check in because
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: that's where the legitimate stuff happens. So we had an
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: armed guard accompanying us all the way to Aswan.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: And then you continued it all the way up to Alexandria.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: No, we didn't go that far. We put Cairo, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: then from Cairo it was back to the east because
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: there's a tunnel under the Suez Canal, because again you
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: have to remain on land. Drove under the Suez Canal
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: through the Cianai and at that time into Egypt. And
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: at that time, this was eighty eight, Egypt and Jordan
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: were technically at war. There was no fighting or anything
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: like that, but because of the problems between Israel and
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: the rest of the air of world, Jordan had said
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: and this was they had told us an embassy that
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: they're just in order to get along with the rest
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: of the Arabs, they have to be at war with Israel.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: So that we tried for about a week to get
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: into drive into Jordan because the only other option was Libya,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: and that was not Libya Lebanon and that was definitely
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: out because this was what five years after the Marine
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Corbarrack's bombing in Lebanon. We're driving a big red Dreep
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: with California license plates. There's no question as to where
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: she's from, and so we thought that's definitely not going
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: to work. So we ended up working with we went.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: We ended up with the United Nations there and we said,
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: look painted white pig un up. They blue un on it.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: You drive it across the allenbe Bridge or King Hussain Bridge.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: It's only about twenty thirty meters wide. It's nothing. It's
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: a creek at that point. Will fly. It's the vehicle
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: that has to do the trip. He will get there
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: another way. He said, we can't even drive our vehicles.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: We drive up to the bridge, we walk across, and
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: we're picked up on the other side.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: So we ended up going back into Egypt and taking
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: a ferry to Jordan. So that was a water.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Break and you didn't have another option, but.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: We had no other option. Fast forward twenty eighteen, May third,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: we drove from a road we were on in Israel
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: to the road we were on in Jordan, made a
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Uni turn and came back in Israel in that jeep.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: She was shipped to Israel.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Incredible, and we so finished the.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Last piece, that last We always called it the final mile,
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: and she was finally done. May third, two thousand and.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, Patty, that's incredible. Wow, Wow. What else did you
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: get to do on that trip? On your most recent trip,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: did you get to go anywhere else. Fun.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: I got to spend more time in Israel, which was fun.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: I enjoy enjoyed that.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, with the history in that Oh.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: I want to go back. That's between Israel and Jordan.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: The history that's there, and the scenery and if especially
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: if you're deserts and Lauren introduced me to deserts, and
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I realized, after living in the tropics for years that
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: camping in the desert is so much nicer when it rains.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: So yeah, the scenery that's there, the history that's there
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: is just absolutely mind boggling. And we made some really
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: good friends in Israel over there. Yeah, and I hope
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: that one day, when I'm done with all of this,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: that I'll be able to go back and spend a
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: couple of months and just do public transportation, rent a
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: car and just explore. Just yeah, take my time in
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: the country.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: I want to pivot my question a little bit to
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: if you were to give some advice to your eighteen
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: year old self, which was already living in Panama in
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: the Canal Zone, already being the adventure that you were.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: But if you were to give advice to your younger
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: self or to another eighteen year old that was getting
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: ready to start a life of an adventure. What would
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: be a couple pieces of advice that you would give
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: do it?
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: Just do it. Have patience and have respect. With those
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: two things, you can usually cross any border.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: A little bit of a good attitude, a smile.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, be respectful. You don't have to be patient. Don't
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: go there expecting things to just go right away, just
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: like they would do here most of the time, although
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: some things are just going that way too. Just have
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: that patience to go in and yeah, we'll get through this.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: When we get through this, I gotta wait. Sure, let
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: me wait. I've got a book here, I'll read for
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: a while. Yeah, we can camp in the vehicle. We'll
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: be here back here tomorrow morning. So yeah, you have
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: to have that patience and respect when you're going into
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: other countries.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: But otherwise just go.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Let just go. If it's something you want to do
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: in your heart, start thinking about it, and then once
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: you start thinking about it, just make it happen. We
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: always said, have a dream, work towards that dream. Just
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: everything you do, and that's what we did. Everything we had,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: we pool because this is what we wanted to do.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: Even last night. It was great here and Clay and
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Rachelle talk about people finding their own big thing. Yeah,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: and I actually I agree with that whole idea, like
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: why not start with something really big? That way, if
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: you make it halfway, you've still done something that you
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: would have never expected that you could have done in
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: your life. But I think what I have found is
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: that the big things take just about as much work
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: as the average things. Yeah, and that's because most people
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: do average things, so you have a lot more competition
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: in the average side of things.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was talking to a lady last night there
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: and she's just new to this. This is her first
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: she's just recently divorced, and she's just looking for something
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: and she wants to I said, go to Canada and Alaska.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: You don't really need a passport, your star card or
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: whatever it is anymore. That's only you need. Just do that,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: just to get a little bit outside your comfort zone.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't you do that? Come back to Baha. Yeah, AHA's beautiful.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: You can spend months down there, for years down there,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: for sure, and then maybe one day you'll say this
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: was pretty good. Let's go further.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. Patty, one of the things that
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about because I know
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: it could help a lot of the people that are listening.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: But you had a profound loss in losing Lauren several
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: years ago. What were some of the the things that
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: you found helped you through that, and what were some
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: of the things that you did in your life that
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: helped you with that kind of loss.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: The determination again, yeah, that determination to get out there
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: and just keep plugging and getting the story told. Lauren
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: had a quote It's on the side of my trailer.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: It was on the side of a seventy nine jeep
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: and it's written inside the jeep that Kanye and I
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: are going to run compete the rebell in I love that.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: But it's what I dare, I will what I will
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: I do, and I'm just going with that day by day.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: And now you're going to go race in the Rebel,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about that. I love
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: this idea. The Rebel Rally is just incredible.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: It's phenomenal, it really is. And I had been following
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: it off and on for past oh what three or
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: four years. I'd go online and watch it because you
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: can actually watch the little dots on the map during
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: the rally itself. But the Rebel Rally is the longest
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: off road rally in the United States, about twenty five
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: hundred kalo. It has sixty five teams, all women, and
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: all your navigation in your vehicle has been disabled if
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: it has some vehicles, they have some that don't have
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: the navigation, but you have to learn to navigate using maps, compasses, plotters, scales,
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: finding plotting, your GPS locations.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: And those are your trip meter and everything else. Yes.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got an external odometer so that I can
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: see an odometer, and Connie can see hero dometer and
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: stock watches, and you've got more gadgets that you have
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: to use, but they're all old school compared to your
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: navigation thing on.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: The what's the name of your team?
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Tried and True ten T.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: I love.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I've always said we're tried by adventure and true
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: to the finish.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: And what vehicle are you going to drive?
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: We're driving at twenty and thirteen twenty twenty three j
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: L Wrangler. Yeah, and that's being provided to us by
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: AEV Oh fantastic. They know Lauren's story, my story, and
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: they've made the vehicle look as close to our sixty
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: six CJ five as.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: They Oh, how awesome is that? We can't wait to
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: follow you in the Rebel? Your adventures and jeeps continue. Yes,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: after the Rebel? What do you think would be next
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: for you? What's your next big thing after that?
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: The big thing going on Clay's talk last night, the book.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: We have to get a book out. Missy Mistive has
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: been working with me for about a year, although not
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: continually because we're both doing other things, and of course
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: she had a move to Florida that kind of kick
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: things up a little bit, but we were google meeting
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: quite often during the winter. Now that we're both traveling again,
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: it's a little more difficult, but she's working on the
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: book incredible. She's a great writers. She went to school
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: for journalism, that's what her degrees in.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: And I think she's the one that wrote the article
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: for us about your Living Legend PCE. Yeah.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: So I have a whole bunch of faith in her,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: and she's gotten the center because the journals are all done.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: That's one thing I spent time on where years is
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: typing up our field journals. And the way they're typed
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: up is you'll read one day and you'll read Lauren's journal,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: his nephew was with us for a while. You'll read
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: his journal, You'll read my journal. So you'll read one
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: day's worth of the journals from three different points of view.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Fantastic, So you'll.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Get three different views of what all went on in
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: that one day. And sometimes and I'll be reading the journal. Thing,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know what Lauren's talking about, So I have
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: to read my journal to figure out what he's talking about.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: It I don't know what I'm talking about. I have
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: to read his journal figure out what I'm talking about.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: Sure, how can people find out more information about Lauren
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: and your incredible journeys? Do you have a website? And
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: then are you on any social media channels? That's okay,
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: I have judgment.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: No, I have an Instagram, It's just that I'm not
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: too at keeping it updated. But the instagram is at
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Sandschip Discovery, Okay, that's the name of the jeep. And
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: then but my website is out back of beyonda dot com.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: I love that. And then we'll have the book to
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: look forward.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: To, hopefully within a year. We're planning on it.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: Is there any other way that our organization can support
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: you or the listeners can help you with your upcoming adventures.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: If they want to go to our TNT tried in
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: True dot com website. There's ways they can help us
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: there awesome, So.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: There's ways they can donate.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: They can donate, Yeah, because we still have to raise
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: money for gas, the rental of the tracking equipment that
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: they're going to put on us so that they'll know
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: where we are. We won't, but they'll be able to
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: figure it out. And then there's some other incidental expenses
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: that are going to be coming up. But yeah, there's that.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: There's an Amazon gift registry, so every little bit helps
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: and we're just going to make it work.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: We are so grateful that you took the time to
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: spend with us today on the podcast.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: Appreciate it.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: So you are an absolute legend and an inspiration to
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: so many, and so is your husband, Lauren. What you
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: guys did. I remember reading about it years ago and
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: just absolutely in awe of what you guys accomplished together.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: And you're continuing to inspire people to get out and
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: explore the world. So thank you for that.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: I there's the United States is really a very tiny country.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: It's very small there's a big there's a big world
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: out there.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: There's a very big world.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Thank you so much Patty for being on
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: the podcast, and we thank you all for listening, and
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: we'll talk to you next time.