Latest / Scalability School / The Evolution of Creative Strategy With Sarah Levinger

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The Evolution of Creative Strategy With Sarah Levinger · Scalability School

• 0:00
  After we decide that, then I try and
• 0:02
  figure out who is it that
• 0:03
  we need to go after that
• 0:04
  would be able to provide that for me.
• 0:05
  Is it long-term customers?
• 0:07
  Can we afford to lose a little bit of
• 0:08
  cash on the front end
• 0:09
  right now so that I can go
• 0:10
  after people who will stay with us for
• 0:12
  eight months, 12 months, 18 months?
• 0:15
  Or is it like, "No, we really need cash.
• 0:18
  The business really
• 0:18
  needs just a little bit.
• 0:19
  How should I know if I should use guilt
• 0:21
  or supportive language?"
• 0:23
  I have created basically a couple
• 0:24
  different frameworks that
• 0:25
  you can use very, very quickly
• 0:26
  to identify this with AOP.
• 0:28
  Because not all of us
• 0:28
  have that weird background.
• 0:30
  We're like, "Now I just
• 0:30
  look for it everywhere."
• 0:31
  If I come in with a message of just like,
• 0:33
  "Your skin is just
• 0:35
  wrinkly all over the place.
• 0:37
  You need to fix this."
• 0:38
  She's going to be like, "Yeah, I do."
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  But no, thank you.
• 0:41
  Sometimes if I come in with a message of
• 0:43
  like, "Get glowing skin.
• 0:44
  She might be too high-p."
• 0:46
  It's this weird sweet spot in the middle
• 0:48
  where it's just very calm, very...
• 0:52
  Your skin is fine.
• 0:53
  Aging is normal and you know this.
• 0:55
  But there's pieces
• 0:56
  that you do want to fix.
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  We have something for you.
• 0:58
  Those type of anchors are really
• 0:59
  interesting because we can
• 1:00
  actually kind of functionally
• 1:02
  work with that as brands just
• 1:03
  by how we present ourselves.
• 1:06
  So I've seen some brands be
• 1:07
  able to raise their prices.
• 1:08
  AOV skyrockets, the whole thing just
• 1:09
  explodes just by changing
• 1:10
  how their website looks.
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  They were like, "We just look mid-tier,
• 1:14
  so let's go up in
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  value just by changing what
• 1:17
  we're presenting."
• 1:18
  There is a big difference between social
• 1:19
  proof and bandwagon effect.
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  They're like two totally different
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  psychological mechanisms.
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  Social proof just tells me a lot of other
• 1:24
  people trusted this, so I could probably
• 1:26
  trust this too in a while.
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  Bandwagon effect, though, that one has to
• 1:30
  do with the fact that we
• 1:31
  tend to support opinions
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  as they become more popular.
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  Not necessarily that a lot of people have
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  said they like this,
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  so I should like it too.
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  It's more the fact that I'm noticing this
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  is becoming more popular.
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  This happens on Twitter all the time.
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  Creative diversity is a
• 1:45
  great example of this.
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  That was bandwagon effect.
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  People were like,
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  "We're talking about it.
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  We're doing it.
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  I'm going to get on board with this
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  because that seems important."
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  Right?
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  We stopped to think whether or not we
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  were communicating the
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  same thing because to me,
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  creative diversity is psychological.
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  To everybody else,
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  creative diversity is format.
• 2:07
  Now let's take a listen to the
• 2:08
  Scalability School Podcast.
• 2:10
  All right.
• 2:11
  Welcome to another episode of the
• 2:12
  Scalability School Podcast
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  featuring a special guest host,
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  Will Sartoris.
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  Will, so glad to have you.
• 2:19
  Will from Self Made.
• 2:20
  You probably know him on Twitter.
• 2:21
  He's gone viral recently.
• 2:23
  He has an AI newsletter
• 2:24
  that's absolutely exploding.
• 2:26
  I can find it in the show notes.
• 2:27
  Will, glad to have you with me.
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  Thank you.
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  Yeah.
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  It's an honor.
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  I'm very stoked to be here.
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  Previous guests as well from our
• 2:35
  illustrious list of past guests.
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  Today we have creative genius slash
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  awesome person in the
• 2:41
  world slash just a person I've
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  known for a long time who's
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  incredible, Sarah Levenger.
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  Welcome to the show.
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  Oh, clap.
• 2:50
  That was such a nice intro.
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  You're so kind.
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  You and I go.
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  Well, hey, I mean, I should look at like
• 2:56
  the first email we sent each other.
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  It's got to be like a long time ago.
• 3:01
  Yeah.
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  This time is weird.
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  I was just talking about how time's not
• 3:03
  real with somebody this morning.
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  So.
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  Oh my gosh.
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  You knew me before I knew anybody.
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  I was like just like wandering around
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  being like, what do you do?
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  And what do you do?
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  And do you want to hang out?
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  Like I'm trying to learn stuff.
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  And you were one of the first that was
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  like, I appreciate that.
• 3:18
  Thank you.
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  Come over and hang out.
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  I mean, here's the thing.
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  You know, I've been doing a lot of self
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  reflection and self-work last
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  several years.
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  So you knew me before I knew me.
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  Really. I mean, not so every
• 3:30
  human on the planet works.
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  Sometimes I would look back at content
• 3:33
  that I posted and I'm
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  like, what was I talking?
• 3:36
  Yeah.
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  Oh, yeah.
• 3:37
  Yeah.
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  I also just look at stuff
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  and I'm like, I was a tool.
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  Really?
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  Like actually relatively sometimes.
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  I never got that much.
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  You were very kind.
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  I appreciate that.
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  Well, hey, welcome to the show.
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  Today we're talking about creative
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  strategy, the role of a creative
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  strategist, which
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  we're going to start with.
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  And then we're going to shift into
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  basically, you know,
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  all of us, we have to make
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  better creative.
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  And so we're going to talk about
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  behavioral, 15
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  specific behavioral science
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  heuristics and applying them to ad
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  creative for performance marketing.
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  That's what we're going to get into.
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  So my favorite first question, creative
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  strategy has shifted seven and eight
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  figure brand owners have creative
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  strategist or a creative or a series of
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  creative strategists.
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  This role today, people that are doing
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  this role, what are they doing that's
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  making them more
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  successful than other people?
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  Oh, okay.
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  We'll load a question there.
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  Success, define successful, meaning like
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  success in the ad account or success.
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  I'm talking about, let's
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  just talk about success.
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  I appreciate that.
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  I'm talking about success in the ad
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  account that it's
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  moving performance forward.
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  Yeah.
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  I would say success that they're not like
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  completely hating their lives and they
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  have, you know, that they're like,
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  because it's so hard
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  to do like this job is
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  difficult.
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  Yes.
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  It's a difficult job.
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  Mm.
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  Mostly because I think the primary output
• 4:55
  from this job is ideation.
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  It's ideas, right?
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  Like it's just ideas
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  that map to a specific goal.
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  And this I find really interesting
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  because it's the only
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  one of the only, I should
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  say.
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  The only roles that, uh, over indexes for
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  one type of optimization, when you're a
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  CEO, a CMO, a CFO, you have a primary
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  directive, but you get the
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  entire year to kind of figure
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  out your way to get there.
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  Right?
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  If you're a creative
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  strategist, you have today.
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  I need wins today.
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  I need you to get me money today in the
• 5:27
  ad account, no matter
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  what happens, your only
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  goal today is to find
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  us revenue and cash.
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  So it's a really difficult, high stress,
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  very high fluctuating kind of a role that
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  optimizes primarily for
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  just revenue generation.
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  So that's first part.
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  Second part of it though, the ones that
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  are doing it incredibly
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  well have a system that
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  they've created for themselves that makes
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  ideation just a natural
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  part of whatever they're
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  doing in their day.
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  And specifically, I would say high levels
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  of creative ideation.
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  So they're not regurgitating the same
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  things they always do.
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  They're just really creative and they can
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  do it over and over and over and over.
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  So it takes a very specific type of
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  person to do it well.
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  But if you can find one, they are
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  incredibly valuable for the brand.
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  And how are they integrating it in the
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  daily that they're doing?
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  I mean, they're scrolling and they have
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  their feed that's built
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  properly and they have a
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  way to curate this
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  content and that kind of thing.
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  And then they're messing
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  around with AI to a degree.
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  Like what are they doing?
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  They're doing it all, which is crazy.
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  I have noticed that the people that have
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  the best systems, since
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  the direction really is
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  go find revenue, go make cash.
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  Secondary, you got to have a system to be
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  able to do this and
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  you have to be able to
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  create ideas at scale.
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  The best thing that I've seen these
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  people do is they have a
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  system for regenerating
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  what they believe about people.
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  And that I find really, really
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  fascinating because the
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  ones that do it the best, like
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  the Dara Dennys of the world, like Barry
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  Houghts of the world,
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  like even down to the people
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  that we don't even know what their names
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  are, but they're just really good.
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  And they're currently just
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  crushing it for their brands.
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  These are the people that I've found
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  understand not just like
• 7:03
  what their customers need.
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  They don't do like deep, deep levels of
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  research all the time, but
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  they've been able to synthesize
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  it so that they can just continuously
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  repeat this over and over and over.
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  So for instance, Grady Doubles, I met a
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  creative strategist the
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  other day that has all of her
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  notion docs and she
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  has a calendar set up.
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  And on her actual calendar, Mondays are
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  literally only for
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  understanding what the customer experience
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  is.
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  So she will go and she will actually try
• 7:27
  the products on every
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  single Monday and continue
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  to experience the product, which I
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  thought was like brilliant.
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  Because I don't see a whole lot of
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  creative strategists using
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  the products that they're
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  trying to sell.
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  So that was lovely.
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  But then Tuesday was her actual ideation
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  day based upon her
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  experience and digging back
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  into the customer data, understanding
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  what they have said in the past.
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  Now she can combine the two and she comes
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  up with much better
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  ideas because she's got
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  her own personal
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  experience to add to theirs.
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  And then Wednesday
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  she'll go into production.
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  She has this system every single week.
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  I love this.
• 7:59
  Will, feel free to jump in
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  anywhere that you'd like.
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  Brad and I just usually and Zach, we all
• 8:02
  interrupt each other.
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  So I was going to ask another question,
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  which is, so that's super helpful.
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  It's integrated.
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  They're making it a part of who they are.
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  Every week.
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  Yep.
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  Where so much of what I feel like is in
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  that demand of it has to be
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  profitable now is unlocking
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  new personas.
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  Right?
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  It's trying to, it's like, okay, we've
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  spoken about or indoor
• 8:28
  benefits to the product, which
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  we can get in.
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  This is a good transition into this other
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  stuff we're talking about.
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  But like, how are those
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  that are doing this well?
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  Is it that they're just reading a lot
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  more Reddit research?
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  Is it that they're like, what are they
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  doing to unlock this or
• 8:44
  those that you've seen that
• 8:45
  have unlocked, let's say new benefits or
• 8:47
  new, you know, new angles, new personas?
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  What are they doing?
• 8:52
  Yeah.
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  Others are not.
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  I think they're doing what this girl is
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  doing that I met last week.
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  They're immersing
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  themselves, not just in the data.
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  And I think this is kind of key.
• 9:02
  They're not just immersing themselves in
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  like, what did our
• 9:04
  customers say on a post purchase
• 9:05
  survey last Tuesday?
• 9:07
  That's kind of important, but it's just
• 9:09
  one snapshot, right?
• 9:10
  It's one day where we saw somebody do
• 9:12
  something interesting.
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  Most creative strategies that I know are
• 9:15
  like heavily consuming
• 9:18
  content around the entire
• 9:21
  industry itself.
• 9:22
  So I see a lot of creative strategists
• 9:24
  that are just prolific on TikTok,
• 9:27
  scrolling, scrolling,
• 9:27
  scrolling, because they're looking for
• 9:29
  interesting ideas, not just like
• 9:30
  interesting ways to sell
• 9:32
  stuff.
• 9:32
  They're looking for trends, really like
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  definitive things that
• 9:35
  they can see that's coming out
• 9:37
  of the organic creators.
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  So that's one piece of it is they're just
• 9:39
  really good about
• 9:40
  identifying good stories
• 9:42
  that are coming out of content.
• 9:44
  And then second, I think that they have a
• 9:46
  very, very, very deep
• 9:47
  knowledge about business
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  growth, which is something
• 9:50
  that didn't pop up initially.
• 9:53
  Like when we first saw creative
• 9:54
  strategists come in, what
• 9:55
  was like 2021, 2022, their job
• 9:58
  was like, you just
• 9:58
  need to go make good ads.
• 10:00
  So we need you to be creative.
• 10:01
  We need you to know how to make content
• 10:02
  and we need you to
• 10:03
  know how to somewhat video
• 10:04
  edit and script, right?
• 10:05
  And some other things.
• 10:06
  Then it kind of expanded into like, well,
• 10:08
  now we kind of need you to understand the
• 10:10
  media buying tactics behind this, the
• 10:12
  growth tactics behind
• 10:13
  this so that you know what
• 10:14
  type of ad to make.
• 10:16
  And now it's expanded even further into
• 10:18
  like, well, now we
• 10:19
  really need you to understand
• 10:20
  where our business sits, right?
• 10:22
  What kind of metrics we're facing, what
• 10:25
  our cogs look like,
• 10:25
  what the metrics look like
• 10:26
  on like the ad account and
• 10:28
  for the overall business.
• 10:31
  It's getting intense and very complex,
• 10:36
  but the best creative
• 10:38
  strategists I've ever seen
• 10:39
  have this kind of like a global view
• 10:42
  where they can look at
• 10:43
  all of it and they're able
• 10:44
  to kind of synthesize it easily.
• 10:46
  It does feel like there's like sort of
• 10:47
  like two core verticals here, right?
• 10:50
  Like with the strategists that you were
• 10:53
  discussing, having her
• 10:55
  try the product every day.
• 10:57
  So she's experiencing things and she's
• 10:58
  probably like sort of
• 10:59
  coming up with angles.
• 11:00
  This could be a potentially great
• 11:01
  demographic for this product.
• 11:03
  So you're sort of wetting your own
• 11:04
  experience with the
• 11:05
  personas and angles, right?
• 11:06
  And then sort of secondarily, you have
• 11:09
  the copy that goes along with the ad.
• 11:12
  And then I guess like from a tertiary
• 11:15
  standpoint, then you have
• 11:16
  to pick the ad creative.
• 11:18
  So like how does one, you know, wed the
• 11:21
  persona and angle to copy
• 11:23
  and then to the ad creative?
• 11:26
  Because there is a myriad
• 11:27
  of different ad creatives.
• 11:29
  Like how would one even know which
• 11:31
  persona and angle would
• 11:32
  work with, you know, this
• 11:33
  type of static or this type of video?
• 11:35
  I mean, I have my own system for it.
• 11:37
  Do you guys want to hear my system?
• 11:39
  I can share that with you.
• 11:40
  I think every creative strategist has
• 11:42
  their own way of doing this.
• 11:43
  Some people like to go
• 11:44
  basically format backwards.
• 11:47
  So we choose what kind of format are we
• 11:48
  using, static, GIF,
• 11:50
  carousel, like what are we doing,
• 11:51
  UGC.
• 11:52
  And then we'll go from this formulaic
• 11:55
  kind of format over to persona.
• 11:59
  Who are we trying to go after, right?
• 12:01
  What do they want most?
• 12:01
  How do we need to tell the story?
• 12:03
  Then from there, we'll go backwards from
• 12:04
  there and just decide what
• 12:05
  landing page are we going
• 12:06
  to?
• 12:06
  Where are we going to send them so that
• 12:07
  we know what kind of
• 12:08
  messages to put in there?
• 12:09
  That's the typical way that I see it is
• 12:11
  just very marketing
• 12:11
  focused, very foundational
• 12:13
  to the structure of like
• 12:14
  the tactics we're using.
• 12:17
  I like to go backwards because I get very
• 12:20
  confused and lost in the sauce if I don't
• 12:22
  understand all of the picture of like
• 12:24
  what we're trying to do.
• 12:25
  So I first kind of sit down and talk
• 12:28
  about what does the
• 12:28
  brand want to do right now?
• 12:29
  I always tell everybody, you got to start
• 12:31
  with like, what are
• 12:31
  we optimizing for this
• 12:32
  month?
• 12:32
  Cause it's not always growth.
• 12:34
  Sometimes it is.
• 12:35
  And I know that the brands want to talk
• 12:36
  about it like it's
• 12:37
  continual growth forever, but
• 12:38
  you can ask anybody Coca-Cola
• 12:40
  all the way down to startups.
• 12:42
  You're not going to grow every month.
• 12:43
  It's not, you're not even
• 12:44
  going to grow every year.
• 12:45
  Like it fluctuates constantly.
• 12:47
  So we start with what are
• 12:48
  we trying to optimize for?
• 12:49
  Is it growth or typically
• 12:50
  efficiency is what I see second.
• 12:51
  So cost are we trying to get costs down
• 12:54
  or we're trying to get
• 12:55
  more people in the business?
• 12:55
  What are we trying to
• 12:56
  do after we decide that?
• 12:58
  Then I try and figure out who is it that
• 13:00
  we need to go after that
• 13:01
  would be able to provide
• 13:01
  that for me?
• 13:02
  Is it long-term customers?
• 13:04
  Like can we afford to lose a little bit
• 13:06
  of cash on the front
• 13:06
  end right now so that I
• 13:08
  can go after people who will stay with us
• 13:09
  for eight months, 12 months, 18 months?
• 13:13
  Or is it like, no, we really need cash.
• 13:16
  The business really needs just a little
• 13:18
  bit of cashflow right now.
• 13:19
  So we need to go after people
• 13:20
  that are going to buy today.
• 13:21
  Who are we going after?
• 13:23
  Right?
• 13:23
  From a mental standpoint
• 13:24
  is very, very important.
• 13:26
  So figure out the optimization of the
• 13:27
  business, figure out
• 13:28
  who we're going after.
• 13:28
  And then I put a lot of time into
• 13:30
  understanding the personas,
• 13:33
  like the ICP, like we're trying
• 13:34
  to figure out exactly who we're trying to
• 13:36
  get in the business.
• 13:37
  Because half the time from what I've
• 13:38
  noticed is brands will get
• 13:40
  to this seven, eight figure
• 13:41
  mark and all of a sudden they will forget
• 13:43
  that you've eaten
• 13:44
  through early adopters already
• 13:47
  within the last two years.
• 13:49
  Now you probably haven't eaten through
• 13:50
  all of them because
• 13:51
  unless you're really reaching
• 13:52
  like millions of people every single day,
• 13:54
  you haven't touched everybody yet.
• 13:56
  But you've eaten through enough of them
• 13:58
  that now the people
• 13:59
  that are in your ecosystem
• 14:00
  are actually people who are pretty well
• 14:01
  versed in this industry.
• 14:02
  They know a lot about your products.
• 14:03
  They know a lot about the
• 14:04
  brands and what's available.
• 14:06
  They need a different
• 14:06
  message than early adopters did.
• 14:09
  So you got to change your strategy.
• 14:11
  So I like to look at it a little
• 14:13
  backwards, go from business
• 14:15
  to person, not like person
• 14:17
  to business.
• 14:18
  That's fascinating.
• 14:19
  So are you effectively
• 14:19
  subscribing for each persona?
• 14:22
  Like maybe a number, let's just say one
• 14:24
  through 10, 10 being like
• 14:26
  this would be a long term
• 14:27
  purchaser, one being
• 14:29
  like a one time purchaser.
• 14:31
  Exactly.
• 14:32
  Yep.
• 14:33
  Fascinating.
• 14:33
  I need ranking systems.
• 14:35
  It's actually weird.
• 14:35
  And I'm like, you got to give me a
• 14:36
  number, put a number on it.
• 14:38
  Like Sarah's not super good at math, but
• 14:40
  I understand
• 14:40
  statistics well enough to know
• 14:43
  some of these people in here are going to
• 14:44
  get us this quick injection of cash.
• 14:46
  And some of these people in here are not
• 14:48
  going to buy for another
• 14:49
  eight months, but they'll
• 14:50
  stay with us for 30 years
• 14:51
  if we treat them correctly.
• 14:52
  I mean, that's like such an overlooked,
• 14:55
  such an overlooked piece.
• 14:56
  Yeah.
• 14:57
  I mean, honestly, so, so let's talk
• 15:01
  about, you know, the
• 15:03
  behavioral science side of this
• 15:05
  and getting into this specifically.
• 15:07
  A lot of people talk about psychology in
• 15:09
  marketing in a surface level way.
• 15:13
  And the first question, what do most
• 15:16
  people get wrong when they apply to ads?
• 15:19
  Oh, I need to have to
• 15:21
  like pair this down.
• 15:23
  What I see typically from the industry
• 15:25
  now, especially since
• 15:26
  we've had AI kind of pop
• 15:28
  up, which is the
• 15:28
  whole conversation itself.
• 15:30
  I see a lot of people talking about apply
• 15:31
  psychology to your ads.
• 15:32
  You need to be emotional with your ads.
• 15:34
  But I don't see a lot of
• 15:35
  people talk about how, how.
• 15:38
  So psychology is fascinating because some
• 15:41
  of us have a background in this.
• 15:42
  Someone was at college.
• 15:43
  Some of us are just like Sarah, who's
• 15:44
  just a fanatic and
• 15:46
  consume a lot of content around
• 15:47
  it.
• 15:47
  But the interesting part is the
• 15:49
  application step gets missed.
• 15:51
  So I understand that I
• 15:52
  need to be more emotional.
• 15:53
  And I understand that the emotion I'm
• 15:55
  trying to pull out is
• 15:56
  maybe guilt or fear or anxiety,
• 15:59
  but I only have one
• 16:01
  way of pulling that out.
• 16:03
  Especially with marketers, it's I need to
• 16:04
  force somebody to
• 16:05
  feel guilty right now in
• 16:07
  order for them to make a move or to
• 16:09
  purchase something or to
• 16:10
  push them towards the sale.
• 16:12
  That's not how humans work.
• 16:14
  Typically speaking, when you're trying to
• 16:15
  elicit a response from somebody, you want
• 16:17
  to find out what's motivating to them,
• 16:19
  not just assume that
• 16:21
  because they feel guilty,
• 16:23
  guilt is what's going to make them move.
• 16:24
  That's not how that works.
• 16:26
  So I tend to see an application issue.
• 16:29
  So great example of this too.
• 16:31
  If you're going to be going after this
• 16:32
  kind of guilt focused
• 16:33
  customer, depending on the
• 16:35
  product, the
• 16:35
  psychology will change as well.
• 16:38
  Category psychology matters a lot here.
• 16:39
  So for a mom who maybe feels guilty
• 16:41
  because she's really
• 16:42
  letting her face go and it's
• 16:43
  just like, I really should
• 16:44
  get some cream or something.
• 16:45
  I don't even know.
• 16:46
  Like I just need something for this, but
• 16:47
  I don't have enough
• 16:48
  time because I'm a mom.
• 16:50
  Guilt is a part of her experience.
• 16:52
  But the second part of it is she doesn't
• 16:53
  want to be forced into
• 16:55
  something because she's
• 16:57
  being forced to do 80 million other
• 16:58
  things every single day.
• 17:00
  So a better tactic would be to choose a
• 17:02
  different emotion that will
• 17:03
  cause her to feel like you
• 17:04
  don't have to do everything.
• 17:06
  You just need one thing.
• 17:08
  Let's start with night serums.
• 17:10
  Just one thing, right?
• 17:11
  We'll present it to you and help you buy
• 17:13
  this without having to
• 17:14
  make a full commitment to
• 17:15
  a 30 day process and 50 different things
• 17:18
  and all kinds of stuff.
• 17:19
  So you got to be careful with application
• 17:21
  because not every emotion is motivating.
• 17:24
  I do feel like all the best strategists
• 17:26
  are talking about
• 17:27
  emotions to subscribe to specific
• 17:30
  personas and angles.
• 17:31
  But how would one even go about knowing?
• 17:34
  If I have, persona one is a busy mom of
• 17:39
  four and we're maybe
• 17:41
  talking about a skincare product,
• 17:43
  how would I even know to start in taking
• 17:47
  in an emotional approach?
• 17:49
  How would you know to use
• 17:51
  guilt or not to use guilt?
• 17:52
  Yeah, exactly.
• 17:54
  I've been trying to
• 17:55
  figure this out for years.
• 17:57
  I don't know.
• 17:58
  It's just innate.
• 17:59
  I don't know.
• 18:01
  For some reason, my
• 18:01
  brain just works this way.
• 18:02
  And I think a lot of it
• 18:03
  just is childhood trauma.
• 18:04
  All of us have traumas that came from
• 18:06
  childhood and teen years
• 18:07
  where it's like you got trained
• 18:09
  to look at something very closely.
• 18:11
  My brain got trained to look at what
• 18:13
  people were saying, dissect
• 18:15
  what their face was actually
• 18:16
  doing and then understand
• 18:18
  the subtext between the two.
• 18:19
  I understand you're communicating this
• 18:22
  even though you're saying this.
• 18:24
  And I trained myself to do this for a
• 18:26
  very, very long time.
• 18:27
  That's just a part of my history, but I
• 18:29
  can see it in other ways too.
• 18:31
  So if you're wondering, how should I know
• 18:33
  if I should use guilt
• 18:34
  or supportive language?
• 18:37
  All right, friends.
• 18:37
  This episode is brought to you by
• 18:38
  Northbeam, the marketing
• 18:40
  attribution solution we love
• 18:41
  over here at the pod.
• 18:43
  And you know, Zach, good news.
• 18:45
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  And so far, so good.
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  Max is stoked.
• 18:54
  He's my CMO.
• 18:55
  He's digging it.
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  Out of the gate, we're super happy.
• 18:58
  Yeah.
• 18:59
  I mean, Northbeam Incrementality gives
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• 19:10
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• 19:11
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• 19:12
  I think that's a big difference between
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  Northbeam's Incrementality
• 19:15
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  your MTA and your MMM.
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  So you can scale what works and cut what
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  doesn't, which I know for
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  you guys, your companies
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  is huge, right?
• 19:31
  Yeah.
• 19:31
  I mean, the fact that we use Northbeam as
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  our North star for
• 19:35
  all of the dollars that
• 19:35
  we spend to have this functionality built
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  in right into the MTA
• 19:39
  is just like not only
• 19:40
  a time saver, but it just makes the
• 19:43
  workflow much easier.
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  So big fans.
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  Yeah.
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  And it's something that you
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  So check it out.
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  Lots of awesome features that you have
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  and look forward to
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  hearing how it goes for you.
• 20:13
  How should I know if I should use guilt
• 20:14
  or supportive language?
• 20:17
  I have created basically a couple
• 20:18
  different frameworks that
• 20:19
  you can use very, very quickly
• 20:20
  to identify this with AI.
• 20:22
  Because not all of us
• 20:22
  have that weird background.
• 20:24
  We're like, now I just
• 20:25
  look for it everywhere.
• 20:26
  So I look for basically three different
• 20:28
  things, sometimes four,
• 20:29
  but the fourth one is emotion
• 20:31
  is what I'm looking for.
• 20:32
  Three different things, especially in the
• 20:33
  ad creative that I currently produce.
• 20:35
  So before I do anything for any brand, I
• 20:37
  usually come in and do an audit for them.
• 20:39
  I'm not looking for
• 20:40
  hooks, angles, avatars.
• 20:41
  Like I don't care what you
• 20:42
  guys have been doing earlier.
• 20:43
  I'm looking for how you
• 20:44
  communicated the message.
• 20:46
  So for instance, we look
• 20:47
  for one thing called valence.
• 20:48
  So valence has to do with, I can't take
• 20:50
  credit for this, it's a psychology model.
• 20:53
  The valence that arouse a model, I
• 20:55
  typically change it to
• 20:56
  valence and intensity because
• 20:57
  it makes more sense in my brain.
• 20:59
  Valence has to do with
• 20:59
  positive or negative.
• 21:00
  How do we communicate this message?
• 21:02
  Did you say
• 21:02
  everything's going to be fine?
• 21:03
  You don't really need to worry about it
• 21:05
  because we're going to take care of you.
• 21:06
  Everything is going to be totally okay,
• 21:09
  positive communication.
• 21:10
  Or did you say it negatively, which is
• 21:12
  like, you really got to,
• 21:13
  you have to do something
• 21:13
  about this.
• 21:14
  I mean, we're at a critical point.
• 21:16
  If you don't fix this,
• 21:17
  something bad is going to happen.
• 21:19
  Negative, right?
• 21:20
  So I track valence, then
• 21:22
  I'll track intensity on it.
• 21:23
  So positive or negative communication
• 21:25
  goes in all sorts of
• 21:26
  different directions, but
• 21:27
  how intense that language is changes how
• 21:30
  the messages are seen.
• 21:31
  So I bring this example up a lot, but I
• 21:34
  can say to my husband,
• 21:35
  did you, did you take out
• 21:36
  the trash?
• 21:37
  Like, I'm so sorry.
• 21:37
  I completely forgot to do it.
• 21:38
  It would be super helpful
• 21:39
  if you can do that today.
• 21:40
  Or I could say, why did
• 21:42
  you not take out the trash?
• 21:43
  Like I have told you five
• 21:44
  fricking times to do this.
• 21:46
  Like I am so tired of you just not doing
• 21:48
  what I've asked you to do, right?
• 21:49
  The level of intensity is very different.
• 21:52
  And how I worded it also changed
• 21:54
  depending on what I
• 21:55
  wanted him to experience.
• 21:58
  The first one says, I'm so sorry.
• 22:00
  I completely forgot.
• 22:01
  Can you please help me?
• 22:02
  The second one says
• 22:03
  you're an idiot, right?
• 22:05
  So and we don't notice
• 22:05
  that we do this in marketing.
• 22:07
  So I sat with somebody when I think it
• 22:09
  was like last Tuesday,
• 22:10
  sometime, once through
• 22:11
  their entire ad account.
• 22:11
  And I was like, did you realize that
• 22:13
  you're communicating the
• 22:14
  message that these women
• 22:15
  are incompetent because they're not
• 22:17
  dyeing their hair the way
• 22:18
  that you think they should.
• 22:19
  And he was in shampoos and he was like,
• 22:21
  how I'd not seen that.
• 22:23
  Like how am I saying that?
• 22:24
  And I was like, well, you're asking him
• 22:25
  if they're exhausted.
• 22:26
  And if they've thought about dyeing their
• 22:28
  hair in a different
• 22:28
  way, of course they have.
• 22:30
  These women are not dumb.
• 22:31
  You're communicating that you think they
• 22:33
  are and that they can't
• 22:35
  figure it out themselves
• 22:36
  instead of saying, you already know this.
• 22:39
  You're smart, capable woman.
• 22:41
  You're just tired.
• 22:42
  Let me help you figure out a different
• 22:43
  way to solve your
• 22:44
  grays without having to do
• 22:46
  it the way that you know works.
• 22:48
  Cause it's just not
• 22:48
  healthy for you anymore.
• 22:50
  Yeah.
• 22:51
  That's a great point.
• 22:52
  And like fundamentally comes down to like
• 22:53
  respecting the consumer.
• 22:55
  It's like, you know, thank you.
• 22:58
  Oh my God.
• 22:59
  That's my goal in life.
• 23:00
  Empathy is important,
• 23:01
  but ethics guys, ethics.
• 23:05
  And I say guys is in
• 23:06
  like the entire industry.
• 23:07
  Everybody I talk to
• 23:08
  really wants to make money.
• 23:09
  I get it.
• 23:09
  Especially now cause we got tariffs and
• 23:11
  all this other stuff that we're doing.
• 23:13
  But you got to do this ethically cause
• 23:14
  these customers are
• 23:15
  already so drained from all
• 23:18
  of the marketing stuff we put in place to
• 23:20
  try and force an emotion on them.
• 23:23
  It's critical to slow down.
• 23:25
  We audit a lot of accounts as part of the
• 23:28
  functional founders community, right?
• 23:30
  Every member gets an audit every month.
• 23:31
  And a lot of times if they say we have
• 23:33
  another account, like
• 23:34
  whatever, we'll audit like three
• 23:35
  counselors in a month.
• 23:36
  It's fine.
• 23:38
  But what's interesting to me is there's a
• 23:40
  lot of chasing of trends
• 23:42
  in terms of ad creative
• 23:44
  of like, Oh, this was like work, you
• 23:47
  know, this is what that is.
• 23:48
  And we got to get on that.
• 23:49
  There's just not enough time spent in the
• 23:52
  intention of the message.
• 23:54
  I agree with you about like, you know,
• 23:56
  speaking to people with respect.
• 24:00
  There's a lot of, I think, Sorette side
• 24:03
  of it, like, and you
• 24:04
  know, within what you were
• 24:05
  talking about, like, there's a lot of
• 24:07
  that that's in the
• 24:08
  negative because I think that
• 24:11
  too many founders of
• 24:13
  companies feels like it's more urgent.
• 24:17
  Yeah.
• 24:18
  Yep.
• 24:18
  And so, so as you dive into this even
• 24:24
  more, let's talk about
• 24:25
  some of these, you know,
• 24:28
  heuristics.
• 24:29
  So like one is loss aversion losses.
• 24:34
  Can we just go down the list?
• 24:35
  Is that cool with you guys?
• 24:37
  So like number one loss aversion losses
• 24:38
  feel roughly twice as
• 24:40
  painful as equivalent gains
• 24:41
  feel good.
• 24:42
  How do you think about framing ad copy
• 24:44
  around what people stand
• 24:46
  to lose versus what they'll
• 24:47
  gain?
• 24:47
  I think it's a good question.
• 24:48
  I'm talking about this.
• 24:49
  Loss is interesting because I think
• 24:52
  marketers just assume that
• 24:53
  loss means pain, but loss
• 24:55
  can come in all sorts of different
• 24:57
  flavors and shapes and forms.
• 24:59
  So some of the best ads that I've ever
• 25:00
  produced talk about loss of
• 25:02
  self, not necessarily loss
• 25:03
  of time or loss of like
• 25:05
  progress, loss of success.
• 25:07
  I think it's also interesting because a
• 25:09
  little bit of this comes
• 25:10
  down to conversation of
• 25:12
  what loss means to me is what I typically
• 25:14
  communicate in my own marketing.
• 25:16
  So I do a lot of work these days on team
• 25:18
  psychology to understand
• 25:19
  what is the team believe about
• 25:21
  this loss because typically the customers
• 25:24
  aren't as sensitive to
• 25:26
  loss as we think they
• 25:27
  are unless it's a specific type of loss.
• 25:31
  When it comes to like, how do you decide
• 25:32
  how to frame these
• 25:33
  inside your ad account?
• 25:35
  I'm typically looking at more, what does
• 25:38
  our customer respond to when I say loss?
• 25:42
  Because I'm trying to think of like a
• 25:45
  good example of this.
• 25:47
  Loss comes down to value, right?
• 25:48
  Like what you actually crave in life.
• 25:51
  So for instance, for Sarah, some of the
• 25:53
  things that I don't want
• 25:53
  to lose this time with my
• 25:54
  kids, that's like critically important.
• 25:56
  So it might mean that I move slower.
• 25:58
  So it might mean I might actually be more
• 26:00
  sensitive to gain
• 26:01
  message if it's for something
• 26:03
  that will get me back time.
• 26:04
  Does that make sense?
• 26:06
  So like I'm actually operating from loss,
• 26:08
  but I'll be more
• 26:10
  likely to buy things that
• 26:11
  will gain time because that's-
• 26:14
  Yeah.
• 26:14
  I mean, well, I mean, you look at it,
• 26:16
  like I would think it
• 26:17
  would resonate with like
• 26:19
  a certain segment of demographic.
• 26:21
  It would resonate like one side of like
• 26:22
  loss, you know, but then
• 26:24
  the other side of it, it's
• 26:25
  going to resonate that potentially, you
• 26:29
  know, someone like you
• 26:30
  that's, you know, has kids,
• 26:33
  not trying to stereotype here, but I
• 26:34
  mean, we have to get into
• 26:35
  this talking about creative
• 26:36
  strategy, like, like, you know, college
• 26:38
  educated, you know what I'm saying?
• 26:39
  Like you're like, I want
• 26:40
  to reframe this for myself.
• 26:42
  And so instead of like, this is going to
• 26:45
  be bad, you know, like
• 26:48
  stop damaging your skin
• 26:50
  barrier every morning
• 26:51
  versus like get going skin.
• 26:54
  Yes.
• 26:55
  Yes.
• 26:55
  The time thing is time is a huge thing
• 26:57
  that I don't think is
• 26:58
  pitch enough for the record.
• 26:59
  Yes.
• 26:59
  Like I think everybody wants more time.
• 27:02
  Everybody wants more time.
• 27:02
  I also think everybody wants more.
• 27:04
  Like you said, beginning respect.
• 27:06
  I see respect messages working incredibly
• 27:08
  well right now because
• 27:09
  people are just like,
• 27:10
  can you stop?
• 27:11
  Like, I don't want to be sold to.
• 27:13
  First of all, I can
• 27:14
  tell you're selling to me.
• 27:15
  Second of all, and third, it seems lazy.
• 27:18
  It comes across as disrespectful.
• 27:20
  Like you're not actually
• 27:20
  trying to get me as a customer.
• 27:22
  You just want my money is what customers
• 27:24
  are like feeling a lot of the time.
• 27:27
  So if I come in with a message of just
• 27:28
  like your skin is like
• 27:30
  just wrinkly all over the
• 27:32
  place and you need to fix this, she's
• 27:34
  going to be like, yeah, I do.
• 27:36
  But no, thank you.
• 27:38
  Sometimes if I come in with a message of
• 27:39
  like get glowing skin,
• 27:40
  she might be like too hypey.
• 27:43
  So it's this weird sweet spot in the
• 27:45
  middle where it's just
• 27:46
  very calm, very, you know,
• 27:49
  your skin is fine.
• 27:51
  Your skin is normal and you know this,
• 27:52
  but if there's pieces
• 27:53
  that you do want to fix,
• 27:55
  we have something for you.
• 27:57
  It's like an, it's a really odd message
• 27:59
  that seems to be working right now.
• 28:00
  And it all comes down to which type of
• 28:03
  loss is she trying to avoid?
• 28:06
  Because right now it's almost loss of
• 28:08
  autonomy that these
• 28:10
  customers do not want.
• 28:13
  Yeah.
• 28:14
  Yeah.
• 28:14
  I think, I think that's really well said.
• 28:16
  I mean, and you look at like
• 28:16
  any great work of art, right?
• 28:19
  In a movie, film, book, and they're all,
• 28:22
  they all respect the
• 28:24
  consumer, the reader,
• 28:25
  the viewer, right?
• 28:27
  And so I guess I would love to just drill
• 28:30
  down on that a little bit more.
• 28:32
  Like what maybe, maybe could you provide
• 28:35
  some like examples of
• 28:37
  like what that exactly looks
• 28:39
  like?
• 28:39
  You just provided one, you know, with
• 28:41
  like, it's okay to age,
• 28:42
  but like, how do you sort
• 28:44
  of, you know, we only have so many
• 28:46
  seconds in a movie medium.
• 28:48
  You have these days, three hours, right?
• 28:52
  So like, how do you think about
• 28:53
  respecting the consumer?
• 28:57
  In my point of view, honestly, I tend to
• 28:59
  go see what the
• 29:00
  organic creators are doing.
• 29:01
  Cause they typically have a different
• 29:02
  optimization that they're going towards.
• 29:05
  And so they can capture what the
• 29:07
  customers want from
• 29:09
  stories way faster than we can.
• 29:11
  Because we're optimizing for sales.
• 29:13
  A lot of times we want to go after
• 29:14
  urgency, scarcity, right?
• 29:16
  Like, go, go, go, go, go, go.
• 29:18
  We get really into the lower valence
• 29:20
  emotions a lot faster.
• 29:22
  With the organic creators though, they
• 29:24
  have to keep attention.
• 29:26
  And attention, especially on the organic
• 29:27
  platforms comes down to
• 29:29
  how well can I identify what
• 29:32
  people are struggling
• 29:32
  with the most internally?
• 29:35
  So a lot of the content creators that I
• 29:36
  follow, I follow in all sorts of
• 29:38
  different odd ranges
• 29:40
  of the internet, but it's predominantly
• 29:41
  because I'm trying to
• 29:42
  figure out what do like pottery
• 29:45
  people suffer from right now?
• 29:48
  What is it that
• 29:48
  they're currently craving?
• 29:49
  Let's go look at some organic pieces of
• 29:51
  content so I can try and
• 29:52
  see what are they talking
• 29:53
  about a lot that's coming up constantly
• 29:56
  when I start to revamp
• 29:57
  my feed just for pottery.
• 29:59
  Right?
• 30:00
  And you'll notice it very, very quickly
• 30:01
  because TikTok's algorithm
• 30:02
  is so well suited to getting
• 30:05
  you stuff that's like high, high, uh,
• 30:09
  what's the word conversation, right?
• 30:10
  Lots of different people are talking
• 30:11
  about this right now,
• 30:12
  regardless of how many people
• 30:13
  like the video or follow this person.
• 30:15
  This topic is a trending topic.
• 30:18
  So that's one of the easiest ways to go
• 30:20
  in there and get it because so good.
• 30:23
  I mean, that's, yeah, that's a huge one.
• 30:25
  So looking at organically, that's
• 30:27
  something that, that like
• 30:28
  other members have suggested
• 30:30
  you will has suggested that, you know,
• 30:32
  I've talked about this,
• 30:33
  like looking at that and
• 30:34
  then looking at obviously combining it
• 30:36
  with, um, you know, what
• 30:38
  people are talking about
• 30:39
  on Reddit.
• 30:39
  It's a similar thing.
• 30:40
  It's a little bit
• 30:41
  deeper, but it's not as fast.
• 30:43
  It's like, to me, if I was to get
• 30:45
  amazing, like if
• 30:46
  somebody's willing to create a piece
• 30:47
  of content about an actual
• 30:48
  topic, that's a huge signal.
• 30:50
  Even if it's like two people, because
• 30:52
  it's, it's not easy to
• 30:54
  create this stuff necessarily.
• 30:56
  You know, so it's like, if you're like,
• 30:57
  I'm going to create,
• 30:58
  I'm going to create this,
• 30:59
  you know, it's like a good one.
• 31:01
  Um, okay.
• 31:02
  So we had lots of versions.
• 31:03
  We're talking about that.
• 31:03
  So we talked about anchoring.
• 31:06
  Um, let's go to anchoring.
• 31:08
  So how do you use anchoring and pricing
• 31:09
  creative landing pages or
• 31:11
  even the first frame of the
• 31:12
  video at anchoring is interesting because
• 31:14
  I think people assume
• 31:16
  that it's only things
• 31:17
  that you show them right before you show
• 31:20
  them the most
• 31:21
  important piece of information.
• 31:22
  So typically anchoring has to do with the
• 31:23
  fact that whatever
• 31:24
  piece of information you
• 31:25
  show first, that's what people are going
• 31:27
  to make their judgment
• 31:27
  off of for the next whatever
• 31:29
  amount of time you're with them.
• 31:31
  So you'll see oftentimes, uh, car
• 31:33
  dealerships will do this a
• 31:34
  lot when you go shopping for
• 31:35
  vehicles.
• 31:36
  They'll ask you what your price range is,
• 31:38
  what kind of car you
• 31:38
  want, those types of things.
• 31:40
  They'll show you some that are either
• 31:41
  outside of your price range,
• 31:42
  depending on their judgment,
• 31:44
  like of your type of prior or inside your
• 31:46
  price range or lower
• 31:47
  than your price range,
• 31:48
  depending on whether they think they can
• 31:49
  actually get you to buy up.
• 31:51
  So they're using anchoring, right online.
• 31:54
  This typically comes in the form of, we
• 31:56
  show you the price on
• 31:57
  the ad and then we'll show
• 31:58
  you the price in on the landing page,
• 32:01
  PDP, wherever we're going.
• 32:02
  Uh, and that typically
• 32:03
  comes with a discount.
• 32:04
  Now we're hoping that just because we
• 32:06
  showed you the price on
• 32:07
  the ad that the price on
• 32:09
  the PDP will be satisfactory and you will
• 32:11
  go ahead and purchase.
• 32:12
  It does work that way.
• 32:13
  A hundred percent.
• 32:14
  The problem with this is when it comes to
• 32:16
  anchoring, we also have
• 32:16
  to realize that people
• 32:17
  have category anchors that
• 32:19
  are tied to entire industries.
• 32:21
  So the only industry that I haven't seen
• 32:22
  this very much in is
• 32:24
  wine because wine is like
• 32:25
  subjective.
• 32:26
  It's like, I can have a $20 bottle.
• 32:29
  Why not going to have a $200,000 bottle?
• 32:31
  Why?
• 32:31
  We don't know.
• 32:31
  It's like a, a gift and good, right?
• 32:33
  Like the higher, the higher price they
• 32:36
  are, the more appealing they are.
• 32:38
  It's just like, okay, well there's some
• 32:39
  deep psychology in wine.
• 32:41
  It's such an interesting industry, but
• 32:42
  for everybody else,
• 32:43
  typically speaking, I might
• 32:45
  buy a t-shirt.
• 32:46
  It's probably going to be somewhere
• 32:47
  between 20 bucks and $120.
• 32:50
  If it's outside of that like range, 20 to
• 32:52
  120, now we're getting into brand work.
• 32:55
  Like why should I part with
• 32:56
  $121 just to get this shirt?
• 32:59
  It better be something
• 33:00
  that I'm pretty aligned with.
• 33:02
  Blue lemon, right?
• 33:03
  We're talking like something that's
• 33:04
  really, really good.
• 33:06
  Now, those type of anchors are really
• 33:08
  interesting because we can
• 33:09
  actually kind of functionally
• 33:10
  work with that as a brand
• 33:11
  just by how we present ourselves.
• 33:15
  So I've seen some brands be able to raise
• 33:16
  their prices, AOV
• 33:17
  skyrockets, the whole thing
• 33:18
  just explodes just by
• 33:20
  changing how their website looks.
• 33:21
  They just, they were
• 33:22
  like, we just look mid tier.
• 33:24
  So let's go up in value just by changing
• 33:27
  what we're presenting.
• 33:29
  There's never been a time.
• 33:31
  So because of the function of people
• 33:33
  having a short amount of
• 33:34
  time, there's, there hasn't
• 33:35
  ever been an opportunity for luxury or
• 33:38
  little luxury to present
• 33:39
  itself more positively.
• 33:42
  And these little like, these little
• 33:44
  things like that of like
• 33:46
  going up in price, but if
• 33:48
  it solves this sort of luxurious issue or
• 33:51
  if it feels like a
• 33:52
  little luxury, it's going
• 33:53
  to be more important.
• 33:55
  And I think it'll definitely help.
• 33:59
  This could lead us into
• 34:00
  number three, framing effects.
• 34:04
  I love framing.
• 34:05
  This is probably my all type favorite one
• 34:07
  because this is, this
• 34:08
  is kind of what I do
• 34:09
  predominantly on the daily basis.
• 34:10
  So when I do consulting projects with all
• 34:12
  these brands, we're
• 34:13
  looking at framing, right?
• 34:14
  So valence, intensity, trying to
• 34:15
  understand which self we're
• 34:17
  going after, which emotion
• 34:18
  we're going after.
• 34:18
  All of this is, I'm just trying to
• 34:20
  understand how do we need to
• 34:21
  frame this, this particular
• 34:22
  piece of communication.
• 34:23
  So it goes back to that take out the
• 34:25
  trash kind of example.
• 34:27
  Ming, how you say something matters
• 34:29
  almost more than what you're saying.
• 34:31
  Because you could say basically whatever
• 34:32
  you want, especially in
• 34:34
  this particular country,
• 34:35
  but how you say it is going to change how
• 34:37
  many people follow
• 34:38
  you, who decides to buy
• 34:39
  from you, how much they decide to buy
• 34:41
  from you, where they go to buy it.
• 34:43
  And then if they ever come back to buy
• 34:44
  again, this is why I
• 34:46
  don't love the kind of hacky
• 34:48
  urgency scarcity based stuff, because
• 34:50
  it's been so overused
• 34:52
  that I think people are just
• 34:53
  kind of done being
• 34:55
  receptive to that framing.
• 34:57
  It's also in my book, not very creative.
• 34:59
  There's so many more creative ways to get
• 35:01
  somebody to buy from you.
• 35:02
  Humor is a great example.
• 35:04
  Like Liquid Desk grew like a billion
• 35:06
  dollar brand over the
• 35:08
  course of just a couple of
• 35:08
  years just by being funny.
• 35:11
  Like they sell water.
• 35:13
  Like it's, I mean the most bonkers brand
• 35:15
  now, there was a lot of
• 35:16
  market things that happen
• 35:17
  there to make it awesome too.
• 35:19
  But humor worked incredibly well for them
• 35:21
  and they were consistent.
• 35:22
  They kept that framing the same so that
• 35:24
  people knew what to expect
• 35:25
  when they came in contact
• 35:26
  with them.
• 35:27
  So yeah, framing effect is everything.
• 35:31
  The one that Will brought up to me before
• 35:33
  the podcast, which you
• 35:34
  know, Will's my guru,
• 35:36
  so I thought it was really smart.
• 35:37
  It's like protein bar positioned as meal
• 35:40
  replacement, clean snack
• 35:41
  versus a fitness recovery tool.
• 35:43
  Yes.
• 35:44
  It's like, and that's, I think that
• 35:45
  that's so much of, also
• 35:47
  when you look at a certain
• 35:48
  ad account, there's like, you won't see
• 35:50
  that happening as much.
• 35:52
  Typically the variations, this is just in
• 35:55
  the last couple of
• 35:56
  months, this is a gross
• 35:57
  generalization, but the variations seem
• 35:59
  to be based on
• 36:00
  creative type versus a frame.
• 36:06
  So they're like, this is a founder
• 36:07
  talking at, which is good.
• 36:09
  I mean, I'm not saying that's wrong, but
• 36:10
  it also I think has to hold those things.
• 36:12
  It's like the same message and the
• 36:13
  founder saying it, the
• 36:15
  static is saying it and the
• 36:16
  video high produced video is saying it.
• 36:19
  And it's like, those can also, there can
• 36:20
  be variety in that as well.
• 36:22
  I think this also is affecting creative
• 36:25
  similarity because we're hearing about
• 36:27
  that a lot nowadays,
• 36:28
  which is kind of funny because man, we
• 36:30
  were really addicted to
• 36:31
  creative diversity there
• 36:32
  for half a second.
• 36:33
  Diversity in my book was
• 36:35
  never about the format.
• 36:36
  I don't care what format you
• 36:38
  put this message in, right?
• 36:40
  Format is important, but
• 36:41
  it's like step five for me.
• 36:43
  Like it's way down the line.
• 36:45
  Alexa has said, creative diversity is
• 36:47
  important under, you know,
• 36:50
  gem and, you know, they're
• 36:53
  and you know, they come out and talk
• 36:54
  about gem and andraman
• 36:55
  and talking about how much
• 36:56
  organic plays a role in this as well.
• 36:59
  I think that is big.
• 37:00
  I hear you, but also like that has to be
• 37:03
  part of a two degree.
• 37:04
  So I think putting these things through
• 37:05
  that kind of machine is important.
• 37:07
  Yes.
• 37:07
  Diversity though.
• 37:09
  Oh, sorry.
• 37:09
  You want to move on?
• 37:10
  I was going to say, no, no, please go.
• 37:13
  The diversity conversation for me is
• 37:14
  psychological diversity format is step
• 37:17
  five in that process.
• 37:18
  Like I said, psychological diversity
• 37:20
  though, comes down to again, what
• 37:22
  situation am I trying
• 37:23
  to bring up?
• 37:24
  Our concepts for creatives are so bland.
• 37:29
  Unfortunately, like we were going to say
• 37:31
  a lot of the same
• 37:31
  messages over and over and
• 37:32
  over.
• 37:33
  So just call out a hundred percent
• 37:35
  diversity is incredibly important.
• 37:37
  Psychological diversity
• 37:38
  though, not format diversity.
• 37:40
  That's.
• 37:42
  You know, cause so let me just jump into
• 37:44
  a random thought
• 37:45
  that's been rolling around
• 37:46
  in my head, which is like, I think these,
• 37:47
  it's really important
• 37:47
  to go through all of
• 37:48
  this because everyone is
• 37:50
  being forced to create better ads.
• 37:52
  But like we have, we have a member who
• 37:54
  I've talked about before.
• 37:56
  He'll come on the podcast at some point.
• 37:58
  Who's a friend of mine, Harry Demelch.
• 37:59
  Okay.
• 38:00
  Harry started his own
• 38:01
  creative strategy firm.
• 38:03
  Harry stayed at my house in
• 38:04
  the room that I'm in last year.
• 38:06
  And like, he's like, what
• 38:08
  makes him more successful?
• 38:10
  Because he, that keep their, his, they're
• 38:12
  creating absolutely
• 38:13
  like killer ads and they're
• 38:14
  working and what makes him more
• 38:16
  successful than other people.
• 38:18
  And I, and I really think a lot of it
• 38:20
  comes down to this type of
• 38:22
  stuff we're talking about
• 38:23
  is going through and understanding the
• 38:25
  psychology of like making a
• 38:27
  different, not just different
• 38:28
  pitches, but how are people
• 38:31
  thinking about this and why?
• 38:33
  So okay.
• 38:34
  So number four, social
• 38:35
  proof bandwagon effect.
• 38:37
  People follow what others are doing.
• 38:40
  It's easy to say 12,000
• 38:42
  people did this or whatever.
• 38:44
  Like 12,000 people brought this today
• 38:47
  example versus a single
• 38:48
  detailed testimonial versus
• 38:49
  a wall of UGC.
• 38:52
  Which one, I mean, you want to test that
• 38:54
  variety obviously, but
• 38:55
  what's your take on this?
• 38:57
  There is a big difference between social
• 38:58
  proof and bandwagon effect.
• 39:00
  They're like two totally different
• 39:01
  psychological mechanisms.
• 39:03
  Social proof just tells me a lot of other
• 39:04
  people trusted this.
• 39:05
  So I could, I could probably trust this
• 39:06
  too and go buy bandwagon effect though.
• 39:09
  That one has to do with the fact that we
• 39:11
  tend to support opinions
• 39:13
  as they become more popular,
• 39:15
  not necessarily that a lot of
• 39:17
  people said they liked this.
• 39:18
  So I should like it too.
• 39:20
  It's more of the fact that like, I'm
• 39:21
  noticing this is becoming more popular.
• 39:23
  This has a Twitter all the time.
• 39:25
  Creative diversity is a
• 39:26
  great example of this.
• 39:27
  That was bandwagon effect.
• 39:29
  We're talking about it.
• 39:31
  We're doing it.
• 39:32
  I'm going to get on board with this
• 39:33
  because that seems important.
• 39:34
  Right now, did we stop to think whether
• 39:36
  or not we were
• 39:37
  communicating the same thing?
• 39:39
  Because to me, creative diversity is
• 39:40
  psychological to everybody else.
• 39:42
  Creative diversity is format.
• 39:44
  So we have this issue now that we're all
• 39:46
  arguing about something that
• 39:47
  technically we have different
• 39:48
  definitions for.
• 39:50
  So this is the reason why when it comes
• 39:52
  to pushing social
• 39:53
  proof inside your ads, you
• 39:54
  have to be careful
• 39:54
  which one you're choosing.
• 39:56
  And I would tend to lean towards
• 39:57
  bandwagon effect over social proof
• 39:59
  because again, social
• 40:01
  proof has been overused, especially by
• 40:03
  Amazon to the point where
• 40:04
  we don't really trust it
• 40:05
  or check it.
• 40:06
  Like people will read the reviews.
• 40:07
  It's still like a part of their
• 40:08
  purchasing process, but
• 40:10
  it's not as intense anymore.
• 40:12
  You used to be able to get somebody to
• 40:14
  buy from testimonial ad.
• 40:15
  Like if you showed a testimonial with
• 40:17
  five stars, that ad would just print.
• 40:21
  Now it's just a part of the stack.
• 40:23
  So overuse of these
• 40:25
  tools tends to degrade them.
• 40:28
  But I'd rather go after bandwagon because
• 40:30
  that means I can hop on
• 40:31
  cultural trends pretty
• 40:33
  easily and quickly.
• 40:34
  Yeah.
• 40:35
  Chris FOMO.
• 40:36
  Yes.
• 40:37
  So type one, type two thinking, system
• 40:41
  one, system two, right?
• 40:43
  System one, automatic car, right?
• 40:46
  You're just like sort of on autopilot.
• 40:48
  You think you're going
• 40:49
  through reels or TikTok.
• 40:50
  It's just like, is your brain even on?
• 40:53
  So I guess the question is like, how do
• 40:56
  you sort of think from
• 40:57
  the, from, we talked about
• 40:58
  respecting the consumer.
• 40:59
  So one might assume that the consumer is
• 41:01
  doing type two thinking,
• 41:02
  but like, how do you sort
• 41:04
  of think about consumers and ads in type
• 41:07
  one, which is like sort
• 41:08
  of fast, quick thought
• 41:11
  versus or not even thinking at all, just
• 41:13
  like sort of going on gut
• 41:14
  impulse versus type two,
• 41:15
  where you're actually turning the gears
• 41:17
  on doing fundamental
• 41:19
  thinking and like going
• 41:21
  through, yeah, thought architecture.
• 41:24
  I don't know, even know if I have an
• 41:27
  answer for this because I
• 41:28
  don't think that there's,
• 41:30
  there's nowhere on the planet where the
• 41:32
  variables are going to be
• 41:33
  consistent enough for somebody
• 41:34
  to go through the same type
• 41:35
  of thinking every single time.
• 41:38
  So when they're looking at products, I
• 41:39
  might be in my car one
• 41:40
  day and I might see your
• 41:41
  ad, but I also might be like at daycare
• 41:44
  the next day, or I might
• 41:45
  be at the grocery store.
• 41:46
  I might be in my office.
• 41:47
  I might be scrolling
• 41:48
  while I'm watching TV.
• 41:49
  That's the toughest part about this
• 41:50
  industry is like, we
• 41:51
  don't control the majority of
• 41:52
  what happens to these
• 41:53
  ads after they go out.
• 41:55
  We spend hours, thousands of hours every
• 41:57
  single month trying to
• 41:58
  make sure that messages are
• 41:59
  just right.
• 42:00
  Or for some people just drafting as many
• 42:03
  different variations of this as possible.
• 42:05
  The problem is once it goes out, we don't
• 42:08
  have control over how
• 42:09
  the human experiences
• 42:10
  it.
• 42:12
  So because of this, like system one
• 42:14
  versus system two, I
• 42:16
  default to system one style
• 42:18
  ads more than system two.
• 42:20
  So I would rather get an ad that you can
• 42:21
  process without having to
• 42:23
  think about it than an ad
• 42:24
  where it's like, I have to think of what
• 42:26
  is she trying to say?
• 42:27
  What does this ad try to say?
• 42:29
  Unless, unless, coming out to that, the
• 42:31
  only time I want system
• 42:32
  two thinking ads to go
• 42:33
  in places, if they're brand ads, like,
• 42:35
  and I'm talking like,
• 42:36
  man, your man could smell
• 42:37
  like, right?
• 42:38
  Most interesting man in the world ads
• 42:39
  that are like, I have
• 42:40
  to pay attention to this
• 42:41
  because this is so weird.
• 42:43
  The guy's on a horse and like he's has
• 42:45
  diamonds around him.
• 42:46
  Like now he's in a bathroom.
• 42:47
  What is going on?
• 42:48
  That type of ad, a hundred percent.
• 42:50
  I'll spend hours drafting brand level,
• 42:53
  very iconic ads, but
• 42:56
  only at the, only at the top
• 42:57
  of the level of the
• 42:58
  brand for paid advertising.
• 43:01
  I'd rather go for a system one, just let
• 43:03
  it get processed
• 43:04
  through as fast as possible.
• 43:05
  And there's probably like different
• 43:06
  layers of system one.
• 43:08
  You know, it's like very clickbaity, you
• 43:11
  know, just like crap dropshipping.
• 43:15
  Yeah.
• 43:16
  But yeah, that's fascinating.
• 43:18
  Going back to respecting the consumer,
• 43:19
  you would think that
• 43:20
  like respecting the consumer
• 43:21
  would try to trigger type two thinking,
• 43:23
  but like probably not
• 43:23
  if someone's attention
• 43:24
  span is already so narrow.
• 43:27
  Yeah.
• 43:28
  Especially because they're going to
• 43:29
  watch, you know, Taylor
• 43:30
  Swift's documentary this
• 43:32
  weekend.
• 43:32
  Like they're on the other, like they
• 43:35
  don't care that your brand
• 43:36
  is having a 25th anniversary
• 43:38
  sale.
• 43:38
  Like that's not like critical for them.
• 43:41
  Save for maybe the, you know, at this, at
• 43:43
  this level, probably
• 43:44
  like 10,000 customers
• 43:45
  who just love you.
• 43:47
  Like they can't get
• 43:48
  enough of what you've got.
• 43:49
  Those people maybe might be receptive to
• 43:51
  system two thinking, but
• 43:52
  for the most part, the rest
• 43:54
  of the market doesn't care about us
• 43:56
  nearly as much as we think they do.
• 43:58
  Yeah.
• 43:58
  And so it's yeah, way
• 44:00
  better to go faster.
• 44:02
  You raise a good point.
• 44:03
  It's almost like with paid, just like
• 44:05
  default to system one,
• 44:07
  maybe like in your like Facebook
• 44:08
  group that you have
• 44:09
  with all of your consumers.
• 44:10
  Like that's where you
• 44:11
  want to provoke deep thought.
• 44:12
  Yes.
• 44:13
  A hundred percent.
• 44:13
  And that's where you ask questions.
• 44:15
  You want to get deeper into their mind.
• 44:16
  You also want to
• 44:17
  understand what's your life like?
• 44:19
  Cause I can't tell you how many times
• 44:20
  I've asked that question
• 44:21
  in focus groups and post
• 44:22
  purchase surveys and
• 44:23
  quizzes all over the place.
• 44:24
  What is your life?
• 44:25
  Like is one of the most respectful
• 44:27
  questions you can ask as a marketer
• 44:29
  because nobody knows
• 44:30
  that Sarah's got two kids and I work only
• 44:33
  40 hours a week
• 44:34
  because the rest of my hours
• 44:35
  are dedicated towards
• 44:36
  like managing children.
• 44:38
  Right?
• 44:39
  Nobody understands that like Sarah
• 44:40
  doesn't really have any
• 44:41
  hobbies outside of like my
• 44:42
  plants.
• 44:42
  Maybe like I have a very specific life
• 44:44
  outside of my D to C
• 44:46
  ecosystems that I don't really
• 44:47
  show people, but it's still a part of
• 44:49
  what I bring to work.
• 44:50
  And that's also happening with customers.
• 44:52
  Their life outside of the screen is what
• 44:55
  they're bringing to the screen.
• 44:56
  That's why the algorithm will change what
• 44:58
  your for you page
• 44:59
  looks like on the daily,
• 45:00
  depending on how you feel.
• 45:02
  So our job as marketers is to get really,
• 45:05
  really knowledgeable
• 45:06
  on what their life looks
• 45:07
  like so that I can plug into what they do
• 45:10
  focus on, not become something they focus
• 45:13
  on.
• 45:14
  Yeah.
• 45:15
  I mean, also the framing of that question
• 45:16
  is pretty genius
• 45:16
  because it seems like you
• 45:17
  give a shit, right?
• 45:18
  Like I actually care about you, you know,
• 45:20
  like that's so sad, but yes, like I care.
• 45:24
  What's your life?
• 45:24
  What do you do?
• 45:25
  What do you not do?
• 45:26
  What do you hate?
• 45:27
  It's super important
• 45:28
  outside of just the products.
• 45:29
  Like that's important information too.
• 45:32
  It gets the eye framing.
• 45:33
  Like what did you think about my product?
• 45:35
  Like, yeah, that's pretty genius.
• 45:37
  Oh, it's so intense out there.
• 45:40
  Yep.
• 45:41
  So we're not going to, I'm looking at how
• 45:43
  big our list is and we're not going to be
• 45:46
  able to get through
• 45:46
  all the, all of these.
• 45:48
  And I'm thinking about, um, you know, we
• 45:51
  have endowment effect
• 45:52
  status quo, the decoy effect.
• 45:57
  And I will pop, we'll put these in the
• 45:59
  show notes as well so
• 46:00
  that everybody can see these,
• 46:03
  and see that kind of the way
• 46:04
  that we were going through this.
• 46:06
  But I would say if you're sitting here as
• 46:12
  a seven and eight
• 46:13
  figure brand owner and you
• 46:15
  are trying to get your creative
• 46:20
  strategist or you yourself
• 46:22
  are trying to create better
• 46:23
  ads and let's just say better marketing.
• 46:26
  Let's talk about landing pages.
• 46:27
  Let's talk about looking at the funnel.
• 46:29
  Let's talk about the
• 46:30
  emails that you're sending out.
• 46:32
  How do you begin the system of assessment
• 46:34
  that somebody would
• 46:35
  hypothetically pay, be
• 46:37
  paying you for?
• 46:38
  I mean, like how did, how do I even begin
• 46:42
  this to, to, to, I
• 46:44
  mean, some of this might
• 46:45
  be cool, but it's like, I'd be curious,
• 46:47
  but what you'd say
• 46:48
  some, where can somebody go?
• 46:51
  Typically I always tell people, if you're
• 46:53
  just starting this
• 46:54
  out, you have a creative
• 46:55
  strategist, like you have a
• 46:56
  team, you guys are stable.
• 46:57
  We're just trying to figure out like, how
• 46:59
  can we do this better?
• 46:59
  Because we know we can always optimize.
• 47:01
  The very first place I
• 47:03
  start is with us, right?
• 47:04
  It always starts with
• 47:05
  you as like a person.
• 47:07
  We can study our customers left and
• 47:09
  right, but if we have an
• 47:10
  internal hidden bias that
• 47:11
  we just have dug in there somewhere that
• 47:13
  we don't even know we
• 47:13
  have, it's going to affect
• 47:15
  literally everything we do with the
• 47:17
  people that we interact with.
• 47:18
  So these days, I'm
• 47:19
  actually doing it backwards.
• 47:20
  This is something that I just started
• 47:21
  doing this year,
• 47:22
  actually, offering internal team
• 47:24
  audits of the team psychology first to
• 47:27
  see what do you believe about us?
• 47:29
  What do you think we sell?
• 47:30
  Right?
• 47:31
  What do you know we sell and
• 47:33
  what do you think we do poorly?
• 47:34
  Like as a brand, what do we default to
• 47:36
  when it comes to creative?
• 47:37
  How do you think about
• 47:38
  like our creative processes?
• 47:39
  What our workflows look
• 47:40
  like, what our briefs look like?
• 47:42
  And then secondary to that, I always go
• 47:44
  into what do you know
• 47:45
  about our customer that you
• 47:46
  just don't think is
• 47:47
  true, that we think is true.
• 47:51
  It'll be very obvious when you start
• 47:53
  asking these questions,
• 47:54
  because depending on the
• 47:55
  role, you'll get a
• 47:56
  totally different answer.
• 47:59
  And that right there is so telling of
• 48:01
  what we've done to the
• 48:02
  internal teams of the business.
• 48:04
  When we've tried to force optimization
• 48:06
  towards scaling, we don't
• 48:09
  allow for people to have
• 48:10
  these very nuanced views because we're
• 48:12
  just constantly
• 48:13
  hammering down on like whatever
• 48:15
  gets somebody to buy.
• 48:16
  So very first thing,
• 48:17
  audit that internal team.
• 48:19
  And then secondary, audit what your
• 48:20
  customers think of the brand.
• 48:21
  So often you can do this with your email
• 48:23
  list really quickly.
• 48:24
  Just shoot out an email that's like,
• 48:25
  "Hey, we just want to see
• 48:26
  what you guys think about
• 48:27
  us.
• 48:28
  Like we're trying to do better in the
• 48:29
  world, do better for you guys.
• 48:31
  Tell us what you think.
• 48:31
  Please be honest as
• 48:32
  honest as you possibly can."
• 48:34
  And ask the same questions.
• 48:36
  What do you think we sell?
• 48:38
  Who do you think we are as a brand?
• 48:40
  What do you wish we wouldn't do?
• 48:41
  Did you see anything that you love that
• 48:43
  we did that we could do more of?
• 48:45
  You get lots of really interesting
• 48:46
  answers, but it always
• 48:47
  comes down to again, what do
• 48:49
  we believe?
• 48:50
  What do they believe?
• 48:51
  And what's the delta between the two?
• 48:53
  Once we identify that, then
• 48:55
  it's a whole lot easier to win.
• 48:57
  So that's super helpful.
• 48:59
  And right now we're in this age where
• 49:02
  everyone is building
• 49:03
  tools to assess their creative
• 49:07
  and performance.
• 49:10
  And I think that removes
• 49:11
  the human side of it a lot.
• 49:14
  Will, what are some applications that
• 49:15
  you've seen in terms of
• 49:17
  building better creative
• 49:19
  and helping scale a brand with AI tools?
• 49:24
  This could be any of them.
• 49:27
  Like what are people doing?
• 49:29
  Will, on a previous episode, talked
• 49:30
  through his process at
• 49:32
  that time of creating better
• 49:33
  creatives.
• 49:35
  But I'd be curious of kind of what you're
• 49:37
  using and Will, it'd
• 49:38
  be interesting to hear
• 49:39
  your thoughts too.
• 49:41
  I need to go back and listen to that
• 49:42
  because now I want to see
• 49:44
  what Will's doing because
• 49:45
  you're always at the
• 49:46
  forefront of stuff, Will.
• 49:48
  So I mean, for myself, I'm typically
• 49:50
  using AI to help us ideate
• 49:54
  a little bit better based
• 49:55
  upon all these things
• 49:56
  that we know about the team.
• 49:57
  So once I get all this information about
• 49:58
  the team itself and then
• 49:59
  about the customers and
• 50:00
  finding out the gap between the two, then
• 50:03
  all I want to do is
• 50:04
  grab a tool that's going
• 50:05
  to help us come up with the most creative
• 50:06
  ideas I possibly can
• 50:07
  get and layer in that
• 50:10
  missing piece is what we're trying to do.
• 50:12
  So I have like a teeny tiny tool that I
• 50:15
  developed at Tether OS.
• 50:17
  This one in particular is
• 50:18
  basically a content scraper.
• 50:20
  So it'll go out, take a look at every,
• 50:21
  all conversations
• 50:22
  around a particular topic or
• 50:23
  a keyword, and then it will go ahead and
• 50:26
  ideate new concepts
• 50:27
  based upon how the phrase is
• 50:30
  being communicated.
• 50:32
  So we're taking a look at like intensity,
• 50:34
  feelings, self, like
• 50:35
  all kinds of different
• 50:36
  emotional motivators, identifying those
• 50:38
  like super, super
• 50:39
  carefully, and then creating
• 50:40
  good ideas from that.
• 50:42
  But I'd be interested to hear Will doing.
• 50:44
  Now I need to go listen to that episode.
• 50:46
  Yeah.
• 50:46
  Yeah.
• 50:46
  And things have obviously evolved at a
• 50:49
  light speed pace since that last episode.
• 50:53
  But I think you raised something really
• 50:55
  interesting in that like
• 50:56
  sort of format comes last.
• 50:59
  And I would say 90% of folks I speak to,
• 51:02
  they pick their format first.
• 51:05
  And so just something I just like vibe
• 51:09
  coded this past week was
• 51:10
  just like, because I agree,
• 51:12
  I think like the meat in the potatoes and
• 51:14
  where the human
• 51:15
  element really comes in is
• 51:16
  just like, who are we targeting?
• 51:18
  What are we saying to them?
• 51:19
  How are we speaking to them?
• 51:20
  And then like, okay, like what's, what
• 51:22
  format should we use?
• 51:23
  Like what like sort of fits best into our
• 51:25
  sort of creative stack?
• 51:27
  And so, you know, to that end, you know,
• 51:30
  just like, and I said, I showed this with
• 51:31
  Andrew, and we can share this, you know,
• 51:33
  show notes or whatever.
• 51:33
  It's just like this vibe coded tool that,
• 51:35
  you know, pulls in the
• 51:36
  meta ad library, it's
• 51:38
  just for statics.
• 51:38
  And it tells you like all the different
• 51:40
  formats, everyone is utilizing.
• 51:43
  And you're allowed to
• 51:44
  compare your brand to that.
• 51:45
  So you can say like, Oh, I should be
• 51:47
  doing more like us
• 51:48
  versus them or more headline
• 51:49
  or more, you know, whatever.
• 51:52
  And so like, if you already have your
• 51:54
  meat in potatoes, and you
• 51:55
  just like need that last
• 51:56
  5%, like, okay, I guess we need to do
• 51:58
  like, you know, us
• 51:59
  versus them ad, like, that's
• 52:01
  just like a great way to leverage AI and
• 52:03
  just like juxtapose
• 52:04
  yourself versus the market.
• 52:06
  But like, to your point, Sarah, like so,
• 52:09
  so many people
• 52:10
  discount, like that, a really
• 52:12
  important work that goes in.
• 52:15
  And like all these AI workflows that just
• 52:17
  like, here's 1000 UGCs that you can post
• 52:20
  in your TikTok, like, that's useless.
• 52:22
  And I think it's just like, that's where
• 52:25
  the bandwagon effect goes really haywire.
• 52:27
  And it's quite bad.
• 52:28
  I would agree.
• 52:30
  I like this tool though, too, because
• 52:32
  half of this comes down
• 52:33
  to how did you communicate
• 52:35
  this consistently.
• 52:37
  And you'll notice I go into some ad
• 52:39
  accounts, and I'm like, I
• 52:39
  can tell the team just loves
• 52:40
  video.
• 52:41
  Not that video is working for our
• 52:43
  audience, but our team is
• 52:44
  very good at communicating
• 52:46
  these messages with video.
• 52:49
  So I find that like super fascinating
• 52:51
  because that's a good
• 52:51
  internal kind of a thing too.
• 52:53
  So you can audit what the
• 52:54
  team is just really good at.
• 52:55
  Some brands are really good at statics.
• 52:58
  Some brands are really good at video.
• 52:59
  Some brands are really good at like
• 53:01
  carousels, you know, whatever it is,
• 53:03
  you'll see it pretty
• 53:04
  quickly.
• 53:04
  If you audit that, I love it.
• 53:06
  So interesting.
• 53:08
  Well, I feel like we jam packed it in.
• 53:10
  I feel like we talked about
• 53:11
  a lot of interesting stuff.
• 53:12
  I mean, I was taking quite a few notes
• 53:15
  actually, myself, because I
• 53:17
  like to have the information
• 53:17
  before other people,
• 53:19
  which makes me feel elite.
• 53:23
  And it makes me feel
• 53:24
  like I have a leg up.
• 53:25
  So even on the podcast that I host, Sarah
• 53:30
  Levenger, super grateful for your time.
• 53:32
  Thank you for joining us.
• 53:34
  Will, thank you for
• 53:35
  stepping in at last minute.
• 53:37
  Very appreciative of you.
• 53:38
  And we'll put all this information in the
• 53:40
  show notes if you have questions.
• 53:41
  We'll also put all the connections to
• 53:43
  Sarah and Will in the show notes.
• 53:44
  Make sure to talk to them,
• 53:45
  hire them, work with them.
• 53:48
  Absolutely genius, brilliant people.
• 53:49
  So thanks for being here.
• 53:56
  This episode is brought to you by Brad's
• 53:58
  company, Work Marketing.
• 54:00
  If you need a D2C marketing agency, let
• 54:02
  me tell you Homestead is
• 54:04
  great, but Work Marketing
• 54:06
  is also fantastic.
• 54:07
  And let me tell you, you aren't going to
• 54:10
  find friendlier people
• 54:11
  out there in the e-commerce
• 54:13
  space.
• 54:14
  So we decided to do these little ads for
• 54:16
  each other's companies.
• 54:17
  So hopefully you find it interesting, but
• 54:19
  seriously, great team
• 54:20
  at Work Marketing, very
• 54:21
  smart.
• 54:22
  Brad and Jordan are incredibly dialed in.
• 54:25
  I just gave them a lead, already made
• 54:27
  this brand that I gave them.
• 54:28
  Like, I don't even know, double, double
• 54:30
  revenue that they had in the
• 54:32
  previous month or something.
• 54:33
  So you know, it's very exciting to be
• 54:36
  connected with Brad.
• 54:36
  And if you need a great agency, there's
• 54:38
  really no one better.
• 54:40
  Zach, anything to
• 54:41
  comment on Work Marketing?
• 54:42
  Yeah, I mean, if you want an agency that
• 54:44
  cares about your business
• 54:45
  much more than they care
• 54:46
  about their own website, I just tried to
• 54:48
  load WorkMarketing.com and it was broken.
• 54:51
  So they're definitely going to give more
• 54:52
  of a shit about your
• 54:53
  business than their own.
• 54:54
  So I highly recommend Brad
• 54:55
  and the team over at Work.
• 54:56
  They've been incredible.
• 54:58
  We've referred a lot of
• 54:59
  business over to them as well.
• 55:00
  Really, really good as far as like
• 55:01
  cracking funnels and
• 55:02
  figuring out like rapid growth
• 55:04
  for brands.
• 55:04
  So I recommend these guys.
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  by you sharing it with your friends.
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• 55:17
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• 55:19
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• 55:21
  do a lot for the growth of the podcast.
• 55:23
  And so sharing YouTube links, sharing
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• 55:34
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• 55:35
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• 55:36
  Yeah, please go check us out on YouTube.
• 55:38
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• 55:39
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• 55:40
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• 55:44
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• 55:46
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• 55:49
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• 55:50
  Thanks for listening.