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What I've Learnt - Lillian Ahenkan (Flex Mami) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

0:07
SPEAKER_00: Ghanaian Australian Lillian Ucker Flex Mummy is a multidisciplinary millennial making waves in the Australian entertainment industry, entrepreneur, author of the book The Success Experiment, DJ, TV presenter for MTV, a model, and also she's lent her hosting skills to the likes of Vodafone, Vice, Mecca, Samsung, and Bumble.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: And that's just to name a few.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: A social commentator, media influencer, and podcaster.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: She's guessed on Overshare with Mama Mia because she's really passionate about conversations surrounding identity, intersectionality, and mental health to mainstream environments.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: She's the CEO and founder of Conversation Card Game Reflex.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: Her aim is to ensure everyone has the necessary tools and agency required to flow up and be their best self.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Whatever that looks like for them, she frequently uses her platform to facilitate discussions on taboo topics, identity, pop culture, sexual liberation, dating and critical symptoms.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: She's been featured in Vo, ID, Stylist, L, Russia, Pedestrian TV, Daily Mail, and the list goes on.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: In addition to being a finalist for Cosmopolitan's Beauty Influencer of the Year and the winner of Eon Line's People Choice Award for Influence of the Year in 2020.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: And she was also crowned Instagram young entrepreneur that year, too.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: So Flex has really been championed by actress and body positive activist Jamila Jamil.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: As an inspiration, she calls her the influencer we deserve, the ultimate girl crush, and the beauty icon we need right now.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: Flex is known for her playful, thoughtful, empowering posts that are full of confident, modern wisdom and a powerful message of self-belief.
1:51
unknown: Just feel eladed.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Let's have a chat.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm so stoked to be here.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Well we are definitely stoked to have you.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: So, Lil, for our listeners that don't know you, can you provide me with a little overview of what you do and some of the awesome things that you have done?
2:10
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: So if I were to rattle off what I do, I would say that I'm a DJ, a TV presenter, a podcaster, and I run two companies.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: That is what I do technically.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: So you're a busy girl.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: A busy girl, but the context in which I do them changes.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I've not been DJing because it's been COVID and running the companies and you know, rearing my staff has been the priority.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: But to say I just run a company sounds very boring.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: And you're far from boring.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm far from boring.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think what's interesting about what I see you do and what you've outlined there, and obviously we can go into more detail, but really it's about having a platform to share your philosophy and to utilize your intellect and your creativity to bring to light some of the major issues that, to be honest, we're all dealing with.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter what age or stage of life we're at.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that I that really resonated particularly with me was the cool reflector starter cards with the great themes like build intimacy, challenge limited thinkings, expose bias.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I just love this.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Tell me a bit about the reflex cards, just as a starting point.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: So the reflex cards were definitely created as a problem to a solution to a problem.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: I was finding that part of a big part of what I do is facilitate conversation.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: And what I was finding is that those conversations were stunted by the fact that people could not recognize their own biases, they could not think deeper than their own very subjective perspective, and they weren't allowing room for ideas, themes, and concepts that didn't closely align with their own.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: And it was getting really difficult to have to preempt every conversation with now, this is how you would think in a more objective way.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: And this is how you would be able to assess this thought if you were critically thinking.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: It just became really tiresome and it put the onus on me to have to educate my audience before we could even have a conversation.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: And I was only here for the conversations.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, on my platform a lot, or in the last, I'd say five years, there's been a lot of discourse about problematic behavior and, you know, aspiring to be woke.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: People want to be conscious of experiences outside of their own.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: They want to recognize who the bad guys are and who the good guys are.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: And part of that conversation of defining who is problematic, I found that people couldn't assess that they were also problematic.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: It was also point is always pointing out that homophobic guy over there or that racist guy over there, but they couldn't turn inwards and say, hey, maybe I've also been that person before I knew better.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: And it got really frustrating because, in order to get to a really productive place in conversation, we have to acknowledge that we too can carry bias.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: And it seemed very simple and self-explanatory, but the amount of walls I would see people putting up or how much they would go to deflect from um perhaps like incriminating themselves is a good way to put it.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: And so I found that people were always quite receptive to unpacking that, but I didn't want to do that with every individual who didn't understand that they could be problematic or whatever the case might be.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: So I thought if I could find a way to gamify that experience and to take what I would do, the almost like the bones of what I was doing where we had these one-on-one consultations and my messages, and put it in this external uh package and say, if you want this activity, you can do it yourself.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: You don't need me to walk you through it.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: You can invest in yourself as you'd like me to invest in you, and you can have that experience on your own, in your own circles where it matters the most.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: And so it's really interesting to have people engage with a product and to know that that product is just an amalgamation of my process.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: It's very interesting.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I understand.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: It makes complete sense.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: What you're saying is, in a way, you created a capsule of some of your philosophies and not only your philosophies, but themes that you come across.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: And then people can play by this game, these cards, and they can use the cards to stir conversation and to basically sit around and actually have a chat about some of those major themes, which we've just touched on.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: Exactly that.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: So, really, you've, I don't know, did you what's your background?
6:31
SPEAKER_00: Did you set out to cultivate this platform?
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Is it, you know, what was really the mission coming back to obviously a great following, and you've got people who adore you, and you've carved, and you really have a very broad range of followers, and that's great.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about how this all started.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was not my intention for this to be what I was doing online.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: I found that seven years ago when I started DJing, there was definitely a way that women DJs were expected to present themselves in person and online.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And for those who weren't necessarily aware, it's very hypersexualized, aesthetics first, pretty pictures.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't about the music.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: And to be fair, when I started DJing, it wasn't about the music either.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: I just found it was a skill that I could monetize.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't want to work in PR anymore.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: So I did it.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: I took a risk.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: However, I find for me I don't like to compete where I can't compare.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: And I could recognize that if you're putting me up against a lineup of women DJs, there was an aesthetic that I couldn't participate in because I didn't want to wear skimpy clothes or I didn't want to humor random men in my DMs.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: And so I said to myself, if I can find a way to completely differentiate what I'm offering, then nobody will compare me to these other people.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: And I won't always be the bottom of that pecking order, right?
7:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I started to recognize there were little ways in which I could engage my audience outside of the, hey, I'm DJing here.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: Hey, look at my outfit.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And I've always been someone to ask hypothetical questions.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a really interesting way to get to know somebody.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: How would they reason in a situation that's unlikely to happen?
8:02
SPEAKER_01: It really tells you a lot about a person.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: And so I thought if I can just take that essence and have those conversations on my platform, I'm killing all the birds with all the stones.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm keeping my engagement up, I'm humanizing myself, I'm creating two-way feedback, I'm, you know, cultivating a community.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: And it was all very subtle.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: It was all kind of like a solution to a problem I had about not wanting to feel as though I could compete with my peers or compare with my peers.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: So that's how that bit started.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And then as I would share these thoughts or share these questions and ask other people to respond, they would ask me to share my thoughts.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: And then people would be surprised, I guess, when I could articulate my thoughts or, you know, would be comfortable sharing complex thoughts or taboo thoughts or ideas that perhaps they weren't expecting me to share in a public forum.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: And then from there, I became an MTV presenter, which meant that I suddenly had this huge platform to share all my thoughts and all my ideas.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: And suddenly I went from just a DJ to somebody who was a social commentator of sorts.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: And so from there, I went into radio.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: And then from there, I went into podcasting.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: And so, in retrospect, the through line with all of those things, no matter what I was talking about, was the fact that I was talking and encouraging others to talk with me.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: And so now we get to 2021, the through line or the glue for my brand is that two-way conversation to cultivate connection and cultivate community.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: But it was never intentional.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: And the more I find myself um like engaging in this public figuredom, public figurehood.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: The more I recognize how awesome it is to be in a position where I do have such a strong connection with my audience and I am able to uh exist in a way that is just being myself and being paid to do so.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: But also it's a double-edged sword.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, nobody is meant to engage with this many people on an average day.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm the same as you, and I'm so getting it.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I literally just it's overwhelming.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: And you know, then you start to discover parasocial relationships and I and I engage with people who feel like they have a really strong connection with me because of how much I'm sharing my thoughts, my ideas, what I do, why I do it, and then not recognizing that, like I don't know you, and I would not know you from any stranger, but you feel so connected to me, and I have to honor that connection, not just with you, but with the thousands of people who also feel just as connected.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of pressure.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: It is a lot of pressure, but I think it's really interesting because I do it, uh, you know, obviously I'm like you, I'm a podcaster, and the notion of connection and dialogue.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: And I often say that I feel as if once I've interviewed somebody on the podcast, I'm connected to them forever.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: And it really develops this relationship, whether it's a designer or an artist or whoever it is, a doctor, whoever that it really gives you this incredible engagement.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what you're referring to.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: And you give up your heart and soul because you actually care.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think you're saying you come from, and that's why I think you resonate so well.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, you referred to the DJ, uh, if you like, archetype back when you were talking earlier.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, you once DJ did a gig with Billie Eilish, I've seen it on your Instagram, and and it's really interesting that because she really challenged archetypes on so and still does on so many fronts, and that's why we adore her.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: Is she somebody who's inspired you in terms of obviously she's a musician, she's she's in a different artistic or creative pursuit, but but it's a similar concept, isn't it?
11:32
SPEAKER_00: It's about taking, just stepping out of the archetype.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wouldn't say that in particular, what she's done has inspired me, but I can definitely see the synergies between what we're both doing and how they come from the same want or need to create different pathways that allow for a more complex understanding of womanhood and what it is to be an adult and an adult in a creative space.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: I think where people are expected to act in a very particular, prescriptive and archetypal way, as you mentioned earlier.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: And it works until it doesn't.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: And so instead of getting to a point where it doesn't work, starting intentionally and deciding for yourself that I'm going to do it differently for a different outcome is really powerful.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: And tell me a little bit about, you know, you've used various mediums, and obviously your book is a very powerful one.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think books are a very potent way to do a deep dive and to really get an understanding of things really at another level and to communicate to your audience in quite a deep way.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about the book and how that came to be and what the themes of that are, how they resonate, this very story that you're telling us now.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: So the book is called The Success Experiment.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: And I started writing it in 2018, and we released it this July, 2021, and it became a bestseller, which is very exciting.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: I would say, you know, writing a book is always something that I thought I would like to do, just like being a TV presenter was something I would like to do.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't really think too much about the actual process, which is horrific.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: The worst thing ever.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: I've written a few myself.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm an author, so I understand it's very terrible, anxiety.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: And I help others write theirs because it's it's really stressful.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: People don't realize it's a lot of, it's like giving birth.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: It's so stressful.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think what I found to be the most stressful about it is because I have this kind of 24-hour cycle with anything I create online, I can get feedback and iterate straight away.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: There's no delay with doing that.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: With the book, I had to be so certain and so secretive as well that what I was publishing was exactly what an audience would need without getting their consultation.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: Not ideal.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: I do not like it.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: But when I when I was being pitched a book, um, I was being pitched to write kind of like a how to become an influencer book, which I think is interesting, but I don't want to talk at length about it.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: And realistically, I wouldn't advise anyone become an influencer, because I don't think the average person has the wherewithal to make it work for them, as opposed to you just working for capitalism.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: I digress.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: So I took the essence of what I assume my publishers wanted, which was tell people how you did the thing, what gave you the goal, where do you get the confidence?
14:10
SPEAKER_01: What tools did you learn to understand critical thinking, self-awareness?
14:13
SPEAKER_01: What philosophies do you live your life by?
14:15
SPEAKER_01: And then from there, I was like, okay, well, that is interesting, but why is it coming from me?
14:19
SPEAKER_01: And then I remember that, you know, on a daily basis.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of conversations with millennials and Gen Z who all kind of have the same disdain for their current life.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: They want a very unconventional lifestyle.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: They want to be able to live more than they work, they want to be able to be creative full-time, to have their life reflect their dreams to a point, right?
14:41
SPEAKER_01: But when they measure the value of their lives, they do it against conventional metrics, like, you know, do I have a corporate job?
14:47
SPEAKER_01: Am I in a long-term relationship?
14:50
SPEAKER_01: And so there's this sort of dissonance between what you know you want and how you measure the success of your life.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: And if you're in a mental position where you don't think you're doing what you need to be doing, how does one motivate themselves?
15:01
SPEAKER_01: And so I thought that, you know, when I look at myself in my career, I think in my own delusion, I'm special and exceptional.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: But I'm quite well aware that in the grand scheme of things, relative to the rest of the world, I'm just a random person.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: I almost failed high school, I dropped out of uni twice.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't think anything I'm doing is quite exceptional.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: I just know what my strategy is and I know what my formula is, and I know what the industry is like that I want to get into, and I know how to do that.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: And so I thought if people could have that kind of understanding for what they wanted to do, could they create a bespoke metric of success for themselves, that'd be far closer to what they want.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: Also take into consideration all of the external factors that mean they'll never get what they want.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: But if we really approached it intentionally, how would that differ?
15:44
SPEAKER_01: And so I theorized if somebody could unpack, you know, who you are, because what we're really forgetting or what we're really not paying attention to is as a unique, complex being, how you get to where you want to go is also going to be unique and complex.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: So why would I call generic ideas of generic tips?
16:02
SPEAKER_01: No, it's true.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's you know that concept, it's really interesting what you say, because I believe very much in the notion of what I call bespoke.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: And bespoke really is that it's really about carve your own version, your own destiny, your own book, your own whatever you want to do.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: And that is my favorite word.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: And I use it a lot because it's that same, yeah, it is you are a unique person.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: You need to create different metrics that measure your success on your terms.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: On your terms, exactly.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: And so from figuring out who you are, getting to the nitty-gritty, you know, understanding and not just in like a theoretical passive sense, but why are you the way you are?
16:42
SPEAKER_01: What is currently influencing you, what has influenced you?
16:44
SPEAKER_01: And then from there, think really critically about who you'd like to be.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: And that's not kind of shedding your skin and being like, I want to be, you know, a different person today.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: It's recognizing that if you were to change a few subtle elements to make you feel better or to make you more productive, what would that be?
16:59
SPEAKER_01: Then unpacking what you want because I feel as though that's where the incompatibilities lie.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: What do you want?
17:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like, I think I want to go into this and I want to do that.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: No, conviction.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: What do you want?
17:10
SPEAKER_01: Because I think all the insecurities that layer with this act of asking or, you know, not really understanding how to ask what you want when you have all these other responsibilities, that is secondary to the fact that if you don't know what you want, then you can't do the next step, which is unpacking why you want it.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: What do you foresee it's going to do for you?
17:26
SPEAKER_01: How do you think it's going to benefit you?
17:28
SPEAKER_01: What kind of biases have you projected onto this idea of like, I want to be an influencer because I want to be a freelancer because I want to be a nurse because, but why?
17:37
SPEAKER_01: And then from there, once you do all of that, how you get it is the simplest part, I promise you.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think what you're saying is sense of purpose and also fulfillment comes in many varieties.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe the why you're resonating so much with a lot of your audience is that you're opening that dialogue to allow people to explore that.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: And look, to be honest, your generation and this generation is more allowed or facilitated to do that than any other generation I can think of.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, at uni, it's it was just not a, it was not spoken about.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, as the creatives rise up, which is great, and many of them do, many, many, many of us are all up, but there is something really beautiful about the space that it's allowing people to fill.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: And it seems like you've sort of carved a niche for yourself.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: In terms of, I mean, the success experiment blew up and sold out.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Can you explain why you think that has been so successful?
18:34
SPEAKER_00: And do you think it is because partly of your existing audience, but also it speaks to that, to the generations about what we're discussing here?
18:44
SPEAKER_00: But what, in your opinion, do you why do you think it's been so successful, this book?
18:49
SPEAKER_01: I think there's three distinct things.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: The first to definitely write it's my pre-existing audience.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: The second thing is there's proof of concept.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: I've been posting online for seven years.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: So you can just scroll back to the beginning of my Instagram to prove what I'm saying.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: I find that a lot of people who write self-help, self-development books are enigmas until they publish.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: I can't find any information about you.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: I just have to trust that your blurb is the truth.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: I just have to trust that you did go to this uni and you did have these ideas.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: No, everything about me is up for scrutiny and it's not a secret.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of just distilling what I did to get to what you see as the end product.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I think there's an element of trust and credibility that's a bit different to what we would assume trust and credibility would be.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think also that the fact that people recognize from what I've published that I am fallible and just human and just a random girl as opposed to someone who's been put on a pedestal, who wears a suit, who is a doctor, it feels far more accessible because it is far more accessible.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think the third thing is how I framed it as an experiment.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: I've read a lot of self-help books who claim to give me exactly what I need by the end of reading the book, have not considered that I might not have the productivity or the wherewithal to do what's necessary, but for some reason, they've given me this sense of security that I'll get exactly what I want.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: And then when I don't, I feel insecure about my efforts.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: With this, I said from the jump, it's an experiment.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm hypothesizing based on what I think is true, but I can't know that without the effort you put in.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: I can only take, you know, take what I've learned, put it in a semi-chronological order, write 90,000 words, and hope that somewhere in there you can put the dots together to make it work for you.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: But if it doesn't, you know, I don't mind.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, but you're right.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: But also the experiment tone, I think is a very good point because it's not a fader complete.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not definitive.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: It's just saying it's an experiment.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And there's something really good about that.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Although I note the word success in the in the headline, and I'm thinking success, as you mentioned earlier, is defined in many ways.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really important point of clarity.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Tell me, you're one of the very few African Australians that has been so prevalent in the Australian media.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: How did you get, you know, to do this?
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And how do you think the media needs to grow to include more diversity across the, you know, across the entire media?
21:04
SPEAKER_00: But how do you think that this is something that you've cultivated and what's it been like?
21:09
SPEAKER_01: I reckon it's a few things.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: I think initially my understanding of my limitations based on race and gender were things that I learned like as a young adult.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: They weren't necessarily things that I understood.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: I remember like my mom would have conversations with me about race and about gender, and I'd be like, I don't get it.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, how can they affect me?
21:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm just this random person.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: She was like, you'll get it one day.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: So I think there was an element of naivety about what it would actually be like, how I'd be perceived by somebody who wasn't going to be as welcoming to somebody who looks like me or who is like me.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: And so that kind of naivety mixed with adolescent hubris was a big one as well.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: I felt like, why couldn't I try and do this thing?
21:51
SPEAKER_01: And I would definitely say it was having that big win, like dropping or almost failing high school, dropping out of uni twice and still getting a good job in.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: PR was really validating.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: And then being able to make that transition from PR to DJing again was really validating and only sought to affirm my reality, which was that I can just do things because things can be done.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: And I guess I'd also been exposed to people in positions of power who I didn't think were particularly that special, that smart, that capable, which didn't, instead of making me jaded about the industry, it made me hyper confident.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: If they could, why can't I?
22:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't necessarily think it's the hardest thing.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: And also recognizing that we're in Australia, like population-wise, landscape-wise, there's so much room for all of us to exist.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: We're not in America, the slots aren't all full.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: Like there can be a million more of us, and there'd still be so much room for all of us.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, when talking about getting more, you know, Africans or people of color in the industry, I think it's a matter of recognizing that nobody is going to open the door for you as much as they might say they will.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: It's going to take a heavy amount of um force on your part, which can which that wrapped up in the fact that people are insecure, self-promote, and don't feel like they're valid, blah, blah, blah.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: All these things make it difficult.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: But this is just the reality of entering an industry that wasn't designed to favor people like you.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: I think also what I'm recognizing is that the butterfly effect, as we know it, is not necessarily real in the sense that because I've quote unquote paved the way, it just does not mean that a bunch of other African Australians will follow.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: You have to walk and join me.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: You have to enter the gate when I open the door.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: You can't just wait where you are and hope that suddenly I'm going to be exposed to you and be able to help.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: So it's a certain sense of autonomy that's necessary, agency, and conviction.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Do you actually want it?
23:43
SPEAKER_01: If so, get it.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: I feel like when I talk about my experience in the industry, always mindful to let people know that, yeah, a lot of it was me being very opportunistic.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: I saw opportunities and I was like, yeah, I should be able to do that.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Why don't I send that email?
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Why don't I ask?
23:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's a certain amount of like hustle that's not really popular in Australian culture either.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: It's a very casual, lax approach to things.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's just not going to get you where you need to go in the time that you want to get there.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: If you want to be, you know, that business owner tomorrow, you're going to have to start doing things today, at least small things that make that are making sure that you're at least heading in that direction that you want to be going in.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: So very much the theme of what you're saying, which I actually agree with, is you need to actually own your journey, take action for it, be responsible, be accountable.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've noticed, you know, you're not afraid to push boundaries.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: And that's part of your uh modus apparandi, which I think is a good thing because worst case scenario, you flip back.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: So what?
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Like there's an element where you go, you know, I suppose you seem as if that is fulfilling for you.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: And somebody else might be a little more shy or a little bit more reticent or find another medium by which to express themselves.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: But I think you seem to be, you know, really you're in a leadership role too.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of young men and women, but a lot of particularly women, look to you and are finding inspiration.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: I know speaking to some of them, that they really enjoy.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: And you're also entertained too.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the other thing is, you know, life gets really serious and has been really serious.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: And we know there's lots of full-on issues that we all need to deal with, but you've also got this wonderful spirit and joie de vive and sense that let's also have a bit of fun along the way.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Yes, let's enjoy, let's enjoy the journey because it's it's and do you feel coming out of this?
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like there's a sense of hope?
25:40
SPEAKER_00: What are your hopes for the future?
25:42
SPEAKER_00: How do you see the next sort of mission for you?
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't describe myself as a hopeful person, but I guess I am.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: I can really, it's not even in a toxic, positive way, in a realistic way for me, things work out.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: Things are always kind of good, things are enjoyable.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: So looking back on lockdown, you know, yeah, it was shit.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: But also I did a bunch of great things in that time.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: I developed skills and interests, you know, hobbies.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: I made new friends.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: I like scaled my business.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: Things happened that were good.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: And my perspective is bad stuff is guaranteed.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Like you don't even need to try hard for bad things to happen, but you do need to try extra hard to guarantee the good will happen.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: And knowing that, I just shift my focus.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Shifting, shifting, shifting.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: But for the future of me, I guess I am someone who knows where I want to go.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm not really sure how I get there.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: For me, I don't want to work hard.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: I want to be a lady of leisure.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: I want to enjoy myself.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: And I feel as though once you get stuck in this capitalistic cycle, once you're able to kind of like rig the system, make money, help others make money, create opportunities, you get stuck, right?
26:53
SPEAKER_01: And you you recognize that like your idea of scaling is just doing more of the same.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to do more of the same.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to talk to strangers about their problems at this scale in five years.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be a role model or a voice in five years.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be a representative of any person in five years.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do any of it.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: And while I can make the most of it now and it's really enjoyable, I'm also aware that, you know, there are some uh what are you doing?
27:20
SPEAKER_01: It's a window.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: It's a window.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And I am an opportunist and I'm enjoying it for what it is.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: But I I recognize like I don't necessarily think people are aware of the downside.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: And like I don't, as I was hit, the best way I can describe it is the Lil, the flex that I know from when she was a teenager, was just an imaginative, daydreamy, happy-go, lucky, just woo-woo girl.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: And the Lil that I am today is all of those things, but really rational and logical and serious and objective.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: And that kind of like internal struggle is not fun long term because I'm always compromising, right?
27:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I know what I want to be doing, but like, well, now I've got staff and I've got other mouths to feed.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, that I can't be silly.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: So I just don't want to be stuck here.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: I want to choose to leave when I'm done.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: And so you talk about where you won't be in five years.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: Where will you or where would you like to be in five years?
28:17
SPEAKER_00: Where do you see the trajectory?
28:19
SPEAKER_00: Even though I know you don't necessarily have to plan specifically, but what would be sort of like, I suppose, your dreamscape, like of sorts?
28:26
SPEAKER_01: My dreamscape is a feeling, not a destination.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: So a feeling it's intangible.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: Number one, I want to wake up and not have responsibilities.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: Like I want to be able to choose to be responsible, choose to put my effort in this, but I want to wake up and say, like, there's nothing that I have to do in order for tomorrow to happen in the way that I need it to.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: I set myself up and it's perfect.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: I want a sense of ease.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Like I it's such an intangible feeling, but to feel ease is so beautiful.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm talking that feeling you get when you've waken up from a good nap, or when you know that you've gone to sleep and you have nothing to do the next day, or when you've left the house and you know you've left your wallet, but it doesn't matter because you have Apple Pay on your phone.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Ease.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, I love the ease.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: And let me tell you, I think that there's a lot of us that would love that ease.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Trust me.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Um and to be honest, as you say, like you can't, unless you have the dream, you can't have the it's hard to realize.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: So in some ways, by having that as your dream, it's quite beautiful and hopefully very attainable.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: And who knows what what the future holds for all of us.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, crazy things have happened.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: And I do think, as I said, you guys and your, I definitely think this generation more than any, particularly coming out of this whole COVID crazy time, there is a sense, and not, and everybody is just reflecting on how they want to live.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: And if there are choices that we can make to be less weighted, less stuck in an office, less, you know, oppressed by expectation, then you are certainly trailblazing that path.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really, really important message to send your listeners and also your followers.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: So, and your readers of people.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: And the readers.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, Lil, I want to thank you for joining me on the What I've Learned podcast.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: It's been an absolute treat and really inspired by all that you're doing.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: And you've got a beautiful energy, and I look forward to see what you do next.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: I love the chat.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: This was really, this was really great.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: I feel energized.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: So that says something.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Two podcasters connecting.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Just doing what we do best.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: All right, Lil, have a really beautiful day.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
30:50
unknown: Let's get together.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Love dead.