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9: It’s a Marathon, Not a Sprint! · Rittener Reflections

• Keith Belmar II (00:00.698) Alright, you're recording. Jeff (00:04.398) Hello, this is Jeff Rittner and welcome back to Rittner Reflections, a forum to address dynamic, complex, and the essential nature of cross-border trade in our ever-changing world. So today I'm really excited to be back with you. I'm so glad that you've joined because in this episode, I will talk about two of my favorite things, international trade and running. And to do so, I will be joined in just a bit by a very good friend of mine. But first, a few reflections from me. So now I feel like I'm a broken record because since episode one, I keep raising the fact that we are living through times of overwhelming uncertainty. Every day, I feel less certain about the world and about our future than I did the day prior. You know, the other day I was out running and I was going through the neighborhood and I saw a poster draped across the front porch of a house. And this is what it said, Siri, please fast forward four years. Now I had to chuckle. And then I got thinking, you know, this is kind of how I feel when I'm running a marathon. You know, as I'm running, it's hard and I'm running. And in my mind, I'm thinking, Siri, please pass forward 20 miles or please pass forward 10 more miles because it's just so hard. But unfortunately, that's not really reality because you have to run the full 26.2 miles in order to finish and to achieve the goal. And so as I think about our world today, you know, we are going to have to just do the hard thing and we're going to have to endure the next four years. But you know, it's really interesting because, you know, we've only arrived at the 90 day mark of this administration and there's still a lot of race to go. You know, unfortunately these 90 days are moving what I call at a sprinter's pace. You know, and in my running career, I have learned the hard way that this is not sustainable. Jeff (02:25.71) It is a marathon and not a sprint. Now, I am no predictor of the future, but I am confident that if you try to run a marathon at a sprinter's pace, you will crash and burn. So I'll talk a bit more about our current state of things later in this episode. But for now, I would like to talk about running. Running is my passion and running is on my mind because On Monday, April 21st, it's going to be a big day in the world of running. That's because they are going to run the 129th race of one of the most iconic races, the Boston Marathon. Now, most people have heard of the Boston Marathon. It's actually the world's oldest annual marathon. You know, I was looking it up and I found that in 1897, they ran the very first one. And that was because the year prior, they ran in the Olympics, the 1896 Olympics, they ran the marathon first time as an event. And it was so successful, they thought, hey, we should do this every year. And so since that time until today, they have run the Boston Marathon. Now, it is also a unique race because it has very strict qualifying requirements. And I'll talk a bit about that in a minute here, but they are actually expecting 30,000 runners. to run this race. And there are gonna be many, many of the world-class athletes, those that you see running marathons around the world. In fact, the last champion on the women's side, a woman named Helen O'Berry, she won the last two Boston marathons, and so she's gonna be trying for a three-peat to see if she can win the race three years in a row. And then on the male side, the defending champion is Cisse Lemma and he actually won last year in April. And then I think there was an injury of some sort. He did not run in the Olympics last summer. And I think this might be his first race since last year. So he's going to be going for the repeat. And so we'll see on Monday who actually wins this race, but I'm excited about it. And I will be watching with great interest. And I will also be watching with dreamy eyes. Jeff (04:46.796) because I was planning on running that this race this year. And unfortunately, I am not in Boston this weekend. I am here in California. And you may be asking, why is that? Why are you not there? Well, two reasons. One is injury and the other is qualifying time. So I mentioned earlier that Boston has this very strict qualifying time to be able to run the race and, you know, to run a marathon. There are kind of three ways that you can get in. So there are some races that I call the register and run. So you go in, you find out there's a race, you register it, and then on the day of the race, you show up and you run. Very easy. And there are many of those all over the world. Then there's the second bunch that I call the lottery and lock. And this is the one where you have to go in and sign up, put your name in, and then you wait. and you wait to hear whether you were the lucky one that got chosen or you were not. And some of the races like New York, Chicago, Berlin, Tokyo, these are all what I call lottery and luck. And a lot of people try year after year and they don't get in and other people just luckily get in one or two times after they've applied. So Boston is completely different. Boston I call the qualify and quota. Okay, so you have to run a race. within a certain period of time, I think it's about 18 to 20 months, there's a period of time, and you can find a race anywhere in the world, a marathon, and you have to run it, and you have to beat a certain predetermined time for your gender and your age. Okay, so for example, for me, I ran the Ventura marathon last year in February, and my target time that I had to achieve in order to qualify was four hours and five minutes. And I happened to run it. I got a qualifying time. I ran it four minutes and 51 seconds faster than my time. Unfortunately, because of the quota, the Boston Marathon organizers only choose a certain number of people. And so of all the thousands of people that run these races and qualify and submit their application, they only choose the total number that's allotted, the quota. Jeff (07:08.992) And so this particular race this year, you had to run six minutes and 20 seconds faster than your, you know, target time in order to qualify. And so obviously I did not make the quota this year. Also, I struggled with injury after that race last year. I had a series of issues with my back and my hamstring. And so I didn't run for six months last year. And so even though I can run now and I probably could have run the race, I'm not sure I would have run it. in the way that I would have desired. So as you can see, running is my passion. What is my future? Well, you I have actually had the opportunity, incredible opportunity to run in 20 countries around the world and in 60 cities. And every one of those runs is memorable. And my next plan is to, in December, to run the Valencia Spain Marathon, hoping to add another country, another city. And I'm also hoping to qualify again for the Boston. And this time I'm hoping that I can make the quota. So I've chose Valencia because it's in December, it's on the Mediterranean, it's a fast race, it's flat, and I'm hoping I can pull this off. So with that, you know, I have to also say that the one person I have probably run with in more places around the world is my good friend, Rob Gordon. And I have invited Rob to join me today as we have so much to talk about as runners and also about this uncertain world that we live in. So let me just introduce Rob to you. Rob was the senior advisor and managing counsel for the International Government Affairs Group at Intel. And this is until November of last year. Rob and I worked together at Intel in that group over a period of time. Rob joined Intel in 1999 as a lawyer and has spent most of his Intel career as an in-house counsel and supporting many of Intel's key global business units and operations. He continues to be an active contributor to US and China thought leadership and is a frequent speaker and participant on both public and private industry panels. Jeff (09:25.356) He is currently serving as a consultant and Franklin Fellow at the US State Department in the Office of Science and Technology Advisory to the Secretary. Rob has lived, worked, and studied in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China, and he speaks Mandarin Chinese. Now, Rob lives in Utah, and when he's not commuting, he enjoys snow skiing, hiking, water sports, and he is an avid long distance runner. Now listen to this, Rob has completed 12 marathons and 60, that's right, 60 half marathons. Rob, welcome to Rittner Reflections. Thank you so much for joining me today and wow, what a career. Robb (10:06.302) Hey, Jeff, this is great. Thanks so much. It's fun to be back together with you again to do this and just to talk about the things that we love. First and foremost, running. So thank you. Jeff (10:18.528) Yes, no, it's good to have you here. I was so impressed when I didn't realize, I know we've run so many times together, I didn't realize that you have run more marathons than I have, and by far more half marathons than I Robb (10:28.38) Wow. You have a better time though, Jeff. You are faster. You have pushed me to the limits many times. absolutely. And I was trying to add up how many miles that we actually did in DC, because that's where we ran the most. It's in the hundreds, I'm sure. But... Jeff (10:42.84) Yeah. Yes. yeah, have, you know, just fond memories of when I would go to Washington DC, I would always try to figure out is Rob there? Sometimes you're there, sometimes you're traveling. Is Rob there? And if Rob's there, we have to run. And so there are many times we met on the street corner in DC and we took off. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, one of my, I've often thought about one of the... Robb (10:53.534) Yeah. Yeah. And we would run. Robb (11:04.256) Early early morning rain or shine we'd meet. Yep, exactly. Jeff (11:13.932) the most memorable runs that I've had. you know, I think I thought of two runs with you, Rob, that are in my mind are one of the most memorable. And the first one was, it was in the summer, we were in San Francisco at a global summit and a bunch of us said, hey, we should go run across the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we got up very early, it was dark, we got in Ubers. got as close to the bridge as we could. And then we ran to the center of the bridge and we watched the sun come up over San Francisco. It was just one of those moments you can't replicate. I don't know if you remember that run. Yeah, yeah. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. And then the second one is a little bit more surreal, but you and I were running in Washington and it was during the pandemic. And we ran by the Washington Memorial and on the grass, Robb (11:50.024) I do remember that. That is one of my top runs of all times. Absolutely. Yes. Jeff (12:08.916) around the Washington Memorial, had placed, you know, within inches of each other, they had placed little flags to recognize an individual that had passed away because of COVID. And as far as you could see across that grass, there were these flags. And you and I, we came to that point, we just stopped and we just looked at it and it was just breathtaking. It was just stunning to... really contemplate that many people in the United States had died because of the COVID virus. Robb (12:44.056) I remember that vividly as well, Jeff, and I think it was after that run as we both stood there sort of just sort of in shock, right, and taking in the entire environment. I went back and placed a flag there for my dad. And so it was pretty special for me. So that run is what made me realize that I could do that. And I went back and did that and honored him by doing that. So that was pretty cool. Yeah. Jeff (12:57.868) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Jeff (13:07.938) That is awesome. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Well, I want to ask you a question that everybody asks me when I tell them that I run and I do marathons on and the question they ask me is, what about your knees? What about your knees, Rob? Robb (13:16.789) Yes. Robb (13:23.106) yeah, your knees, your hips, you're old. You know, heck, knock on whatever you have around you. My knees are okay. Do they hurt? Yes. Are they sore? Yes. My hips, yes. And that was the first thing. When I did my very first race in 2012, I talked to my parents. I was living overseas and my mom said, well, you can do one race, but after that, your knees are gonna give out. I haven't stopped. Jeff (13:46.414) Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I can see. You've 12 marathons, which ones have you run? Robb (13:55.86) So the biggest ones, I've lived all over the place. My biggest top three that are most memorable for me are the Shanghai Marathon, the California International Marathon there in Sacramento, the CIM, and also the Marine Corps Marathon. Those are probably my top three. The one I've run the most is probably the Ogden Valley Marathon. It's a beautiful race in Utah. You go through a canyon. I've run a St. George Utah Marathon a couple times, Richmond, Virginia. So there's been some real memorable ones. have, you you were saying you've run in what 20 countries and I don't know how many countries I've run in, but I've basically run on every continent except for Antarctica and South America. I haven't run in South America, but everything else I've done. So. Jeff (14:47.022) Well, if you go to South America and run a race and then you go to Antarctica, you get a special medal for that, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you'll do that. So that's interesting. Yeah. I went back, you know, because I keep a record of all the countries I've ever been to. So I went back through that list and I thought, well, wait a minute, how many have I actually run in? And what I came up with 20 at least. so which is pretty amazing. Robb (14:53.46) well, I need that metal. So I gotta figure out how to do that. That's on my bucket list of things to do. So. Robb (15:06.804) Yeah. Robb (15:10.634) Thank Jeff (15:16.226) When I would travel for Intel, one of the things I would always do is throw in my shoes and some running gear. And it was sometimes some of the best ways to actually see the city or the place you were at. mean, just to be able to run at a runner's pace through a city. Sometimes it would be early in the morning and so you kind of see the city waking up and so on. So always, always fun. Robb (15:40.98) Well, and Jeff, I have memories of doing that with you in Brussels, right? I remember we woke up very early one morning in Brussels and we did that. You throw your shoes in, you get up early, you run and you see the town come to life early in the morning. You see the sights that you normally wouldn't get to see on a business trip. So I consider myself very fortunate that I had that opportunity. Jeff (15:49.9) Yeah. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jeff (15:59.97) Yeah. Yeah, same here. you one of the things though, as we've had this conversation, just hit me that, you know, I don't think of all the times you and I have run together, I don't think we ever ran a race together. And so I know you, I know, no, no, you keep inviting me to come to Utah and I just, never find him. No. Robb (16:14.89) keep trying to get you to run a race. You'd never run a race, because you'd beat me. That's the problem. We wouldn't run together. You would run and you'd beat me. One time we were in the National Mall in Washington, DC between the World War II Memorial and the Lincoln Memorial. There's that big reflecting on there. And you taught me how to do the sprints. you worked me hard and it was good, but I had never done that before. So every time I run that route, I always think of Jeff Rittner and the time that, man, I had to keep up with you because you're fast. You are fast. Jeff (16:30.594) yeah. Jeff (16:39.416) Ha ha. Jeff (16:47.15) That was yeah, that was part of my training. I do remember it was it was like I think was that nighttime It was dark. I remember being kind of dark Yeah, yeah, and we would run we would sprint a half a mile from the Washington Memorial I mean from the World War two Memorial to the Lincoln is a half a mile. So yeah anyway Yeah, well just maybe one last question on running I'm just you know at being an avid runner that you are and all the race you've done Can you provide our listeners with? Robb (16:54.922) Yeah, it was a nice time. Yeah. Robb (17:03.658) Yeah, was good. Robb (17:11.072) Sure. Jeff (17:16.342) What's your best running advice? What advice would you offer? Robb (17:18.772) Best running advice is, running is not fun at first. You've got to give it some time. Don't go out on a Saturday morning and think you're gonna become a runner. It doesn't happen that way. It takes time. And the two things that I swear by, you need a good pair of shoes, and it doesn't matter the brand. I think every brand has a shoe that you can fit into. But go try them on, find something that's comfortable, that fits good. And then once you get into distance, you've got to get a good nutrition plan. And that means you've got to have, whether it's supplements or something, whether it's a payday candy bar or a goo or a Gatorade shot that you take, something to sustain you, because your body will burn those carbs rather quickly. good shoes, some nutrition program and regimen, and give it some time. Give it some time, because it's not fun at first, I promise you. But once you start, you can't stop. Jeff (18:17.038) Not now Rob is it fun at mile 25? Robb (18:22.054) It is, at mile 25, it's actually fairly fun because there's not a better feeling in the world when you cross that finish line and get that medal around your neck. That's fantastic. But yeah, from mile, like two to mile 24 and a half is not fun. Yeah, fast forward, fast forward. Jeff, what's your secret? Jeff (18:28.814) Yes, that is true. Jeff (18:38.094) Yeah. Siri, can you please fast forward? Jeff (18:47.808) You know, over the years, what I have learned is pacing. I, you know, as a young man and school and college, I played football, soccer, and those sports you train to sprint, you train to run bursts of running. And so when I started doing long distance running, I had the hardest time slowing down. And I would, when I, my first race, races that I would run, just, I mean, I would almost crawl over the finish line because I ran too fast. just, so I've learned over the years, just the importance of pacing. And I, I've also learned that in life, I think that's really important. Sometimes we tend to go too fast and we burn ourselves out, you know, whether it's in our careers or with, you know, different interests we have. And so just learning how to pace yourself and, and run, run for the distance for the, for the, for the goal and not just for the moment. So that would probably be, be mine. Robb (19:42.772) Yeah, no, I completely agree with you and echo all of that. You will, and the problem with running competitive races is you have the tendency to burn out immediately because when that gun fires at the beginning and you're running with hundreds, if not thousands of people and they're cheering you on, you have a tendency to go fast and you look down at your time and you're like, wait, this is, I'm gonna burn out. Jeff (19:56.642) Yeah. Jeff (20:03.256) Yes. Yeah. Robb (20:07.646) You gotta just let everyone else pass you because I guarantee you in a couple of miles, you're gonna pass them. Jeff (20:14.924) Yeah, that's a great point, Rob. I remember when I ran London Marathon a couple years ago, I chose to run very slow the first half and I was very diligent and disciplined about that. then the second half, I found myself passing people because as they were all slowing down and so on, I've still got that energy because I went slow and it was a good feeling to realize that I still had the strength at the end. So very true. Robb (20:23.764) Yeah. It's hard to go slow because you want to go fast. Robb (20:33.277) Yeah, it's true. Robb (20:41.97) It is true. for a marathon, running a marathon, half marathon or a full marathon, it's a long term strategy and game plan. have to know, you have your identifiers at different mile marks where you should be in your time and so you've got to stick with the plan. You need a plan. Otherwise, it's going to be really challenging. Jeff (21:00.139) Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a good segue into maybe the second part of our time here, Rob, and that is, you know, thinking about the world that we live in. And I've talked about this world as being, I've even named 2025 as the year of uncertainty. you know, I've talked earlier in this podcast, I talked a little bit about that, you know, it really is a marathon and not a sprint. And somehow I get this sense today. with our current administration here in the US that we're kind of on this sprint. And it really is a marathon. And so as we try to keep up and sometimes it's a bit exhausting just to kind of follow what's going on, I'm curious to just know how are you keeping up and how are you navigating through these uncertain times? Robb (21:48.032) Yeah, I think that's a great observation. I think sometimes it does feel like a sprint. Sometimes you feel winded at the end of the day just trying to catch up on the various news reports and some of what's happening in the world, not just here in our country in the US. I have a lot of friends and family that a week or two weeks ago, they would look at their 401k and it was like doomsday. It's like the world is ending and what's happening. I have to sort of learn from my running experience. It's like, this is a long-term play. If you look at that every day and you're checking it, then you need a new hobby because it's gonna go up and down, right? And that's just what they do. That's what these, the way that global trade is impacting markets around the world, it's going to be volatile. And we've seen that. Jeff (22:26.574) Yep. Robb (22:38.784) So it does feel like a sprint. I think what we have to keep our eye on is the end game. And some for some people it's very clear, others it's not so clear. And I think we have to figure out what is the end game and what are we trying to achieve. And if we can come together and we can, at least from a global trade perspective, if we can come together as a unified, know, whether they're trading blocks, you want to use a multilateral approach, call it whatever you want. That's what we have to be working towards to make sure that we're moving towards that to get back to this global free trade economy that we've been able to prosper in for so many years. Jeff (23:17.026) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a great point. And, know, Rob, one of the one of the areas I think that when I think about the long game, I think about the U.S.-China relationship. Right. And, you know, it is the long game. mean, I remember back in 2017, 18, when Trump first became president, you know, there were a lot of, you know, actions taken towards China that that really disrupted how we were how we were operating in the trade environment and our supply chain. And I think it's just continued. We're 20, 25, and we're still seeing this play out. Robb (23:28.382) Hmm. Yeah. Robb (23:44.064) Certainly. Yeah. Jeff (23:51.448) So, you I noticed, you you've lived and worked in China. You were there during the first Trump war, I think. And I'm just kind of like, if you could describe what was that like and how is it? Do you think the same today or is it different? What are your thoughts? Robb (23:58.356) was. Yes. Robb (24:07.104) Well, it's certainly different as far as if you look at just the tariffs and the numbers, as far as the percentages of, you know, sort of the tit for tat back and forth, the retaliatory escalation. But it's interesting. Jeff (24:10.872) Yeah. Yeah. Robb (24:20.852) While I was living there in Shanghai for the first part of the first part of the trade war and Trump won back when the Huawei ZTE were targeted. It doesn't get a lot of and a lot of it has to do with the media filtering in China, but it doesn't get front and center of the news like it gets here in the US. It's just it wasn't. And as a consumer, I didn't notice anything. Again, we didn't have the tariffs like we have today. I think there is still a desire on the Chinese side to work with the United States and to work with companies. mean, if you look at the... Jeff (24:57.41) Mm-hmm. Mm. Robb (25:01.418) certainly the company that you and I both worked at for years, it's got a strong brand recognition. It's got a strong value proposition, not just in China, but around the world. And so there's value that's recognized with that. They still want that. They still need that. It's just becoming a little bit more difficult to get that. Jeff (25:12.046) All right. Jeff (25:17.71) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Robb (25:25.252) you know, has it changed? I haven't been back. It's been a year since I've been in China. So that was during the end of the Biden administration. And I on the ground, I have, I didn't notice much of a difference between, obviously it was post COVID. So it was a little bit different with as far as COVID protocols, but as far as the economy, yeah, there's issues with housing. but by and large, the people on the street, I didn't notice a huge difference. Jeff (25:30.793) okay. Yeah. Jeff (25:54.402) Yeah, I assume you, like me, you keep tabs to some of the people that you worked with and maybe lived with back in China. How are they managing it? How do you think, I mean, do you think that's really how, yeah, right. Robb (26:00.458) Sure. Robb (26:06.292) Frustrating, right? They're frustrated. And I don't think it's necessarily a frustrated aimed and directed at us. I think these are smart, educated people that recognize that there is some unfairness in this, perhaps significant when you look at what China has done to the US and what we're trying to recoup, whether it's trade deficit, trade imbalances. I think they also see this as a long play. Jeff (26:17.678) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Robb (26:33.88) They realize that both countries need each other. They just have to figure out what that solution looks like. And it's going to be hard. It's going to feel like a sprint. We're going to be out of breath for a while. We're going want to just quit and say, I'm done. I don't want to go another step. Jeff (26:46.958) You Jeff (26:50.606) Yeah. Robb (26:53.188) But if you keep, I'm confident that we're gonna get to a place we need each other, right? These two global economies are just so dependent upon each other. They've gotta find a way to work it out. Jeff (27:05.346) Yeah, and do you think, you know, right now we seem to be at a standstill. I mean, there's this tit for tat, like you said, you know, and at some point, you know, where does that lead, right? And I'm hoping that it leads to dialogue and, you know, an opportunity to find a path. But I don't know, do you think, how do you see this kind of playing out? Do you think this is something that will... Robb (27:21.76) We need that nylon. Jeff (27:30.604) that they'll talk soon? Or do think this is gonna go on like this for a while? Or what's your thoughts? Robb (27:36.352) I do think they will talk soon. think as these tariffs continue and as the current administration continues to stand by their position, I do think that China needs us. a great deal. absolutely, they are an export economy. They cannot be a consumer consumption economy. It's not going to support their GDP. So they are going to need to continue exports and they can't export to other third countries to replace what they do with the United States. So they will come to the table. There's no question. It's just a matter of one. And remember China, of all countries that we deal with, they understand the long play. Jeff (28:08.792) Right. Right. Jeff (28:17.848) Yes. Robb (28:18.548) They are in no rush, right? So they've got the backing of the party, they've got backing of state subsidies, they can support industry for a long time. Jeff (28:27.8) you Right. So one of the things that's not clear to me and probably to many of us is what exactly do you think Trump wants from China? it? Yeah. Robb (28:45.258) Well, he wants a level playing field. wants things to be equal. And it's not right now. China has had the upper hand. And a lot of that is because we and other Western countries have enabled that. We've encouraged many to go over there and to set up shop in hopes that we could reform and change China, which hasn't happened. Jeff (28:50.158) Okay, right. Jeff (29:02.382) Mm-hmm. Jeff (29:07.79) Right. Yeah. Robb (29:09.728) Instead, what have they done? They went from being a purely manufacturing country where they would just, you give them an order, you give them a bill of goods, and you give them a design sheet and they would build it. Well, now they innovate, right? They've learned, they've taken that IP that we've sent over there so they could just build something. accounts, they've been able to, whether you call it a tech transfer, stealing the IP, they've been able to do this and create a thriving industry. And wherever they focus, whether it's on solar panels, batteries, next semiconductors, they've got the backing of a government, they've got massive state subsidies. And it's in their national plan to be, you to create national champions in these different sectors. So I think the current administration recognizes that and is realizing that we need this. American companies need to have their stuff made here in the United States. We need to bring supply chains back. We cannot be dependent upon China or any other parts of the ecosystem. And so there's an exciting opportunity to bring those supply chains back, not just to the Western hemisphere, but to the United States. That is the key. Jeff (30:29.678) Right. No, that's good. That's well said. You know, you also lived and worked in Taiwan and Taiwan also seems to be in the news a lot. Any insights on how Taiwan is managing through this time as well? Robb (30:36.361) Yeah. Robb (30:45.12) You know, it's an interesting time. Taiwan's lived with this as far as the constant threat of what's on the other side of the Taiwan Strait with the mainland. They've lived with this for, you decades. And I remember living there in the 80s and the 90s and recently in the 2000s. You know, there's air raid drills. You get used to the threats of communist China. Jeff (31:04.333) Yeah. Robb (31:09.248) You go out, there's an island called Jinmen that I went and visited. It's fascinating. can actually, on a clear day, you can see mainland and there's bunkers and there's Chinese inscriptions inside these bunkers that say, don't shoot until you can see their eyes. Right? So mean, it's close, but they've lived with this threat for so long and they're used to it. And... We are now in a different time when technology seems to be at the forefront of a lot of the escalations and the tensions are focused around semiconductors, artificial intelligence. Taiwan has this silicon shield that they talk so much about. Is that really what's insulating and protecting them from any type of adversarial advancement from China, perhaps? They deal with it, but for them, life goes on. This is how they've lived since 49, 1949. So it's just another day. Jeff (32:05.23) Mm-hmm. Jeff (32:11.182) Yeah, right. So in terms of, I was thinking about tariffs and Taiwan got slapped with reciprocal tariffs and then they were pulled back to 10%. But I would assume that the government of Taiwan is talking with the Trump administration. So when you think about that, what do you think that Taiwan is willing to do? And what do you think that the US is asking? Robb (32:17.47) Yeah. Robb (32:26.848) I would think so. Right? Robb (32:34.504) It's a great, I mean, they're a great friend of the United States, right? mean, there's a lot of, we've had open dialogue with them for years, a lot of cross sharing in many areas, in many sectors, great, great partner with the United States. And so I think there was a big announcement recently with TSMC in Arizona, which was fantastic. I think we're gonna continue to see more investment in the United States. Jeff (32:38.69) Yeah. Yeah. Robb (33:04.064) We recognize the need to have a vibrant and safe and secure Taiwan. So, it's, you know, but we have the one China policy, which the government continues to comply with. It's just very nuanced, Jeff. You know this, right? It is very complicated. And it's worked. It has worked. So far, it has worked. Jeff (33:23.842) Yes, yes. Jeff (33:33.548) You know, mentioned, you know, semiconductors this morning. I just read that apparently TSMC denies that there's any sort of a JV in the works with Intel. So thinking a little bit about about that dynamic with Intel. Robb (33:44.544) Hmm Robb (33:48.704) Yeah, I wonder. and then Nvidia said they're going to make the other AI chips in the United States. Where is that going to be? In Arizona? Is it TSMC? Is it Intel? I think there's a lot of speculation. Jeff (33:53.428) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think there is a lot and I am I'm wondering, you know, yesterday also there's news articles saying that both Nvidia and AMD and I think now Intel have all been approached by the US government to stop selling the AI chips that were that were OK under the laws. Now they're being asked to not sell them. There's the press is reporting it as a new rule. I don't think it's a rule. I think it probably was more like is informed letters. But it feels like the US government is really starting to completely decouple. US business in the AI space with China. Is that how you see that or what do you where do think that's going? Robb (34:38.42) I think so. think, I mean, there has been this whole, I mean, and this isn't new. mean, AI is not a new concept or technology. Artificial intelligence has been around for a long time, right? Jeff (34:45.538) Yeah. Robb (34:50.636) And but just within the last, well, certainly since chat GPT came along, the whole world is now awake to the idea of artificial intelligence. And you have the deep seek from China that was released. And my gosh, you the robots are going to take over. But I do think that there is this tech escalation between countries and regions. And one of the areas that I think governments feel that they can perhaps Jeff (35:03.022) Yeah. Jeff (35:07.063) Ha Robb (35:20.45) that is through putting restrictions on products that go into artificial intelligence or actually the end product itself, an AI chip. Jeff (35:30.062) Yeah, I just had a chance to interview Alex Capri, who's the author of the book, Technonationalism. And that's exactly his point that he makes in that book, is how this government's recognized the value of technology and they're doing what they can to ensure that they have the technology for their purpose. And so you see some of these restrictions and this kind of decoupling and separating for that purpose. Robb (35:37.332) Mm-hmm. Robb (35:49.854) Yeah. Robb (35:57.728) But I think it's, so it's one thing to put an export control on a particular product, whether it's an Nvidia H200 or whatever, you know, or a Xeon. It's one thing to export control a product, but it's a different thing to actually decouple and remove a supply chain from country X to the United States or somewhere else. That process cannot be done overnight. Now. Jeff (36:21.016) Yeah. Yeah. Robb (36:24.0) If that is what our end state is, then yes, we need to start now or maybe we should have started yesterday. Because it takes, I think some of the studies I've seen from various groups, anywhere from eight to 10 years to actually relocate a supply chain. And the other thing that... Jeff (36:30.382) Hmm. Hmm. Robb (36:42.41) people need to understand is just, it's not just moving one factory from one country to another because each factory has a microcosm of smaller ecosystems that support it. And that ecosystem has an ecosystem. So they're very connected and entwined and ingrained in the environment where they exist today. So to rip and replace, it can be done. Jeff (36:52.622) Yeah. Jeff (37:06.862) Yeah. Yeah. Robb (37:11.282) It just, it's long. Jeff (37:12.014) This is long, yeah. Yeah, it's the long game. It's the marathon. Right. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Speaking of the long game, you you and I both worked for a very long time at Intel in various capacities. And I think we, I mean, I feel like we had, I had the privilege of working with you over the last five or six years. And as we think about the long game and think about Intel, Robb (37:15.956) There you go, right? Back to your racing, right? And I hope the knees don't give out, whatever those knees may be, right? You gotta have good knees and hips. Robb (37:31.114) Yeah. Jeff (37:41.442) Let's look forward to five years. Where do you think Intel's at in five years? Robb (37:46.25) think it's gonna be a very different company than it is today. mean, heck, it's a different company today than it was a year ago. I think it's changing. And they have to, right? They have to change. And trust me, there's no one that wants Intel to succeed more than I do. I want this as a national champion. We need Intel. But it's not going to look and feel like the same company it is today. Jeff (38:10.286) Yeah, no, I think you're right. We're seeing that with the new CEO and some of the current changes with the spinoff Altera, et cetera, et cetera. So there's going to be changes. And yeah, in five years, it's hard to imagine. Intel is still that US champion, still that manufacturing at the advanced levels, and still that iconic company that you and I both spent so many hours. Robb (38:29.343) Yeah. Robb (38:36.032) 90 years. Jeff (38:37.036) hours of our lives in addition to running. So, you know, just to kind of wrap up, Rob, you know, you and I both left Intel in November after our long time there. And so what have you been doing since then? How are you keeping yourself busy? Robb (38:39.146) Yes! Robb (38:50.912) Mm-hmm. Robb (38:54.772) You know, I've been keeping busy. don't, I mean, so I... I told people when I went out on social media when I left, I took a retirement package. I should never have said that I retired because I'm not sitting on my front porch in a rocking chair, know, whittling wood. I've been keeping busy. I'm in Utah. I skied a lot this year. I went, I skied a lot. I had a fantastic opportunity to go to the US State Department on a talent exchange program as a consultant and under their Franklin Fellowship program. It's been amazing to work on that site. Jeff (39:07.662) Yeah. Jeff (39:13.431) You Jeff (39:18.222) Did you? Robb (39:30.466) of things and technology. Been doing a little bit of that and then just you know enjoying time with family and running. I've gotten I think this year since I've done three half marathons so since I left so not bad. Yeah. Jeff (39:44.674) Wow, three half marathons, good for you. So you have not been idle, I can see, very, very busy. Robb (39:50.718) Now my times are getting slower. Maybe it's because I'm getting older, but it's just, anyways. Maybe I'm eating too many bonbons on the couch as I'm watching daytime TV or something. Jeff (39:55.19) Yeah. Yeah. Jeff (40:01.006) Well, I have to say for me I have probably been as busy or maybe more busy than I was at Intel and I what's what's been kind of kind of refreshing for me is that I'm not an Intel's timetable and I pretty much am on my timetable and I can pretty much dive into the things that I want like Producing this fraud podcast which has been so much fun and I have to say Rob. It's been just wonderful having you join me Robb (40:08.309) Yeah. Robb (40:16.127) Yes. Jeff (40:29.622) on this podcast. Robb (40:29.866) Well, I think this is great, Jeff, because you and I were in this field in technology and semiconductors for years, entire career. And just to turn it off one day is impossible. It's who we are. It's in our DNA. so. by you doing this podcast and staying relevant on the issues of the day, mean, it's good. It's kind of like a training exercise, right? We run to keep our bodies fit. This stuff keeps the mind active and it's good because I'll tell you, five years ago, there's no one in my family that had even heard of TSMC or even Nvidia. Now it's almost a household word, right? So it's semiconductors, tech, supply chains. These are what the things that matter. I so it's, I'm glad you're Jeff (41:03.798) Yeah. Yes. Robb (41:13.576) in this. So thank you. Jeff (41:15.074) Yeah, no, it's wonderful to have you. Well, just to wrap up to our listeners, know, both Rob and I would agree that a marathon is not a sprint. In fact, as I think Rob said earlier, it is hard. It is difficult to run a marathon and to do it multiple times is really amazing. It takes a lot of effort. It takes endurance, determination, and I believe hope that you can make it to the end. And so I want to encourage everyone. To stay strong Stay focused and do not give up hope because we will make it So with that Rob, thank you so much for joining for this fantastic conversation When are we going to run together again? Robb (42:00.202) You tell me, I'm looking out my window, it's snowing now. So I don't think we're gonna run anytime soon, but we gotta figure something out on the calendar. Let's do it. Jeff (42:03.42) I think we're both in DC next month, we'll definitely get on that mall again. So anyway, thanks again, Rob, and you have a great day. And thank you to our listeners. You've been listening to Rittener Reflections. We'll talk again very soon. Thank you. Robb (42:10.708) That's right, that's RENDC. Let's do it. I'm off with it. Hey, thanks, Jeff.