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The Jury's Out The Fight To Save The American Legal System With Shannon Price · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: There's a little party in the box that we've created
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  Speaker 1: Enjoy your exploration. Hello and good morning, everybody.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning. This is Shannon Price.
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  Speaker 1: Shannon, how are you doing today? You've got a heavy
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  Speaker 1: subject here, but boy, you're going to lighten things up
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  Speaker 1: for us a bit.
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  Speaker 2: I'll certainly try.
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  Speaker 1: What an amazing journey that you've put yourself on because
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  Speaker 1: a lot of people, and I know you've seen it yourself,
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  Speaker 1: that a lot of people would rather shy away from
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  Speaker 1: it and not go in a direction of victory, but rather, okay,
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  Speaker 1: I'm just going to step back and let everybody else
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  Speaker 1: play for it.
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  Speaker 2: I certainly don't shy away from a challenge. Good, good.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the name of the book is The Jury's Out,
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  Speaker 1: The Fight to Save the American Legal System. You're so
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  Speaker 1: spot on with this, but we've got to get the
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  Speaker 1: conversation started. Sorry about this there, Shanna, but you're the
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  Speaker 1: one that's starting it. You got it. Pressure's on you.
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  Speaker 1: Now we're going to learn from it and get our
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  Speaker 1: conversation started on this end.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. And so The Jury's Out, which is going to
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  Speaker 2: be released in November, is a book that I co-authored
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  Speaker 2: with former Judge Pierre Bergeron. And it's really all about
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  Speaker 2: the vanishing jury, both on our civil side justice system
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  Speaker 2: and our criminal side justice system. And what that means
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  Speaker 2: for the American day in court, because for the vast
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  Speaker 2: majority of folks who find themselves in court, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's one of your worst days. You don't want to
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  Speaker 2: be there. You're there because you've lost something and you
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  Speaker 2: expect at least some modicum of justice the way you
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  Speaker 2: might have seen it on TV or imagined it from books.
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  Speaker 2: And that is just not where our justice system is today.
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  Speaker 2: And the argument that we make through the stories of
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  Speaker 2: everyday litigants in the book whose cases that we track
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  Speaker 2: and follow is that a lot of the reason for this,
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  Speaker 2: the reason that the traditional American day in court is
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  Speaker 2: disappearing is because the jury is disappearing. And we've shut
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  Speaker 2: everyday folks out of the courtroom.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've always wondered about that. And you really do
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  Speaker 1: bring this up there very clearly. Instead of somebody like
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  Speaker 1: myself who would sit there and try to figure out
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  Speaker 1: how to get off the jury duty, what you talk
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  Speaker 1: about is racism, sexism, and discrimination. And my eyes were
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  Speaker 1: suddenly wide open. And I went, you dork, don't try
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  Speaker 1: to get off that jury. Get on that jury and
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  Speaker 1: serve your community.
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  Speaker 2: But it's very reasonable. And I think this is a
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  Speaker 2: really important point that Yes, a lot of folks try
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  Speaker 2: to get out of jury duty, need to get out
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  Speaker 2: of jury duty because it's such a burden on their
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  Speaker 2: child care, on their finances. And that is not inevitable.
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  Speaker 2: We didn't have to build the system this way. And
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  Speaker 2: so we're not asking for people all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 2: you know, put your life completely on hold and sacrifice
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  Speaker 2: everything so that you can exercise your right to be
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  Speaker 2: a juror. We're also saying that we as a system
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  Speaker 2: need to make it possible for people to act as jurors,
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  Speaker 2: make it less burdensome so that you can play that
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  Speaker 2: really important role. And as you said, you know, combat
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  Speaker 2: all those evils of racism, sexism, etc., that have at
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  Speaker 2: times permeated the court system and that people fought really,
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  Speaker 2: really hard to try to get out of the jury system.
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  Speaker 1: Because of one of my essential jobs, because I like
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  Speaker 1: just being in the community without running for public office,
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  Speaker 1: I'm with a lot of lawyers that come through the
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  Speaker 1: grocery store to read that 1% of the cases filed
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  Speaker 1: in court reach a jury. No wonder they're always telling me,
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  Speaker 1: I'm just getting ready. I'm getting ready. I'm getting ready.
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  Speaker 1: And I look at them, I go, dude, get your
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  Speaker 1: show on the road. Let's move this thing. And then
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  Speaker 1: they learn this. It just really puts it in order
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  Speaker 1: for me. And it helps me understand where we are.
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  Speaker 2: There's always a joke among practicing lawyers that the more
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  Speaker 2: you prepare for the jury trial, the less likely it
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  Speaker 2: is to happen. It's kind of the Murphy's law. But
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  Speaker 2: it is a self-perpetuating system because so few of us
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  Speaker 2: go to jury trials, take cases to jury trial. It
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  Speaker 2: means young lawyers don't get that experience. And then they
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  Speaker 2: start avoiding jury trials, just like judges will avoid jury trials.
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  Speaker 2: And we'll instruct our clients that way to say, well, hey,
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  Speaker 2: you got to stay away from the jury. The jury
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  Speaker 2: is bad. Well, how do you know that if you've
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  Speaker 2: never actually taken a case to a jury trial? So
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  Speaker 2: it really builds on itself, this decline of jury trials.
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  Speaker 2: And it means that, again, you have fewer and fewer
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  Speaker 2: folks from outside the legal world who ever get to
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  Speaker 2: see what's really happening in our justice system.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you're being so authentic at a great time right
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  Speaker 1: now with this book. The jury is out. And the
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  Speaker 1: reason why is because it seems like I mean, in
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  Speaker 1: my 64 years of life, I don't remember the judicial
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  Speaker 1: system being under attack like it is today. It's like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: my God, the judges are getting in trouble.
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  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah, it really is unprecedented. You know, the
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  Speaker 2: level of attacks we're seeing directly on the judiciary and
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  Speaker 2: also the plummeting public faith in the judiciary. And a
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  Speaker 2: lot of that, we would argue, you know, some of it,
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  Speaker 2: of course, comes from very recent events. But the loss
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  Speaker 2: of public faith in the judiciary has a lot to
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  Speaker 2: do with not trusting what you don't and can't see.
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  Speaker 2: And we've shut people out of the courtroom. We've made
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  Speaker 2: it a mystery what goes on behind those closed doors.
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  Speaker 2: And that does not have to be the way that
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  Speaker 2: our system is. And it's not constitutionally the way our
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  Speaker 2: system is supposed to be. People are supposed to have
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  Speaker 2: a direct role in the administration of justice. Your ability
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  Speaker 2: to go serve on a jury is, along with voting,
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  Speaker 2: one of only two methods of direct democracy that's protected
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  Speaker 2: in the Constitution.
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  Speaker 1: Please don't move. There's more with Shannon Price coming up next.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking about the jury. Guilty, not guilty? Are we
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  Speaker 1: even having a trial? We'll find out next. The name
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  Speaker 1: of the book, The Jury, is out. The fight to
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  Speaker 1: save the American legal system. We are back with Shannon Price.
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  Speaker 1: We want that Johnny Depp trial all the time. We'll
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  Speaker 1: sit there in front of it and in front of
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  Speaker 1: the TV and watch it all darn day. But you
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  Speaker 1: get me up there with Everyday Belinda and Johnny Joe
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  Speaker 1: and we're going to go. So it's like we need
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  Speaker 1: to change our attitude on this side of the book.
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  Speaker 1: Do we not?
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  Speaker 2: I'd say yes. And I mean, I think that a
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  Speaker 2: lot of the perception around all these sensational celebrity jury
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  Speaker 2: trials is, again, a byproduct of how we built the system.
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  Speaker 2: We built it so that it's incredibly expensive to make
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  Speaker 2: it to jury trial. So a lot of the people
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  Speaker 2: we see going are people who have a lot of
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  Speaker 2: money or people who have really high dollar claims. But
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  Speaker 2: I'd say that that ordinary day-to-day case you described between
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  Speaker 2: Johnny and Belinda, if you actually get into that courtroom...
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  Speaker 2: It can be fascinating. Everyday life is fascinating. And the
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  Speaker 2: types of legal tangles that folks find themselves in that
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  Speaker 2: they never expected can be really impactful for a community
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  Speaker 2: and have a lot more direct impact on day-to-day life
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  Speaker 2: of the community. Than what's happening with Johnny Depp.
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  Speaker 1: Well, when you're as close as you are to it,
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  Speaker 1: how do you feel about things like this? And you
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  Speaker 1: put it right there in your own book. The justice
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  Speaker 1: system functions better when the ordinary people don't get their say.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I actually stopped and I went, OK, you
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  Speaker 1: better learn what she just taught you here, buddy, because
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  Speaker 1: this this is a form of reality.
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  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. And it really all depends on how do
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  Speaker 2: we measure a functioning justice system, right? Do we measure
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  Speaker 2: it in terms of how many cases we get decided,
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  Speaker 2: no matter how we decide them? Well, if that's the case,
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  Speaker 2: then we ought to get rid of juries and judges
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  Speaker 2: and just have AI do it because you can go
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  Speaker 2: through as fast as possible. But I think we would
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  Speaker 2: all agree that that's not the justice system we want.
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  Speaker 2: We don't just want to focus on how many cases
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  Speaker 2: we can get decided. We want to focus on getting
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  Speaker 2: them right and having a fair process that brings really
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  Speaker 2: key issues in front of the community so that we
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  Speaker 2: can decide how we want justice in this country to run.
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  Speaker 2: And so efficiency isn't Everything. And it shouldn't be everything,
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  Speaker 2: even though when you look at the rules, we felt
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  Speaker 2: we've kind of made it so.
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  Speaker 1: Well, are we guilty of a crime on this side
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  Speaker 1: in the way that we love social media, keeping us
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  Speaker 1: up to date when somebody gets busted and all of
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  Speaker 1: a sudden they go into court? And then there's a
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  Speaker 1: guilty plea. And I'm going, wait a second. What just
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  Speaker 1: happened here, man? I was looking forward to seeing this
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  Speaker 1: court case. But it seems like everybody's getting pressure to say,
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  Speaker 1: I'm guilty. Okay, I'll take the lie. Okay, we got it. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: I'll take whatever crime I did. I'll do the punishment.
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  Speaker 1: It's like, is that really how we're going nowadays?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what you're talking about is what we call
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  Speaker 2: in the book the plea bargaining treadmill.
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  Speaker 1: That's it.
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  Speaker 2: It's the system we've built that we're perfectly rational people
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  Speaker 2: who may or may not have actually ever committed a
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  Speaker 2: crime or may have committed a minor crime, but not
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  Speaker 2: the same crime that they're being charged for. They've been overcharged.
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  Speaker 2: We've built a system where there are just massive, massive
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  Speaker 2: incentives to plead guilty, whether or not you did the
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  Speaker 2: thing you're being accused of doing. Because we've made it very,
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  Speaker 2: very risky to go in front of the jury. We've
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  Speaker 2: allowed what's called the trial tax, where if you exercise
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  Speaker 2: your right to go to jury, you might be sentenced
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  Speaker 2: more harshly than you would have if you hadn't exercised
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  Speaker 2: that right. Yeah. And so it creates a world where
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  Speaker 2: perfectly rational folks who just need to get back to
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  Speaker 2: their lives will plead guilty, not understanding the consequences and
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  Speaker 2: prevent the underlying charges themselves. And facts of what happened
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  Speaker 2: from ever going in front of the community, which might,
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  Speaker 2: if given the chance, have said, well, well, well, maybe
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  Speaker 2: this isn't how we want law enforcement to be acting.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe this isn't how we want our prosecutors to assemble cases.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe there's not enough evidence here to really support a conviction.
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  Speaker 2: You never answer anything. of those questions if you pressure
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  Speaker 2: someone to plea. And we've made the decision internally, the
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  Speaker 2: justice system and our judges have allowed this immense pressure
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  Speaker 2: to be put on criminal defendants. The result isn't surprising.
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  Speaker 1: My God, I would love to sit with a focus
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  Speaker 1: group that's full of nothing but true crime podcast listeners
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  Speaker 1: or book readers, because when you start talking about Alexander
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  Speaker 1: Hamilton in here, I would love to see their eyes
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  Speaker 1: for them to go, oh, my God, this isn't just
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  Speaker 1: a now thing. This really does stretch way back.
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  Speaker 2: And the founders were acutely aware of what the jury's
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  Speaker 2: role could be in checking power and including their own power,
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  Speaker 2: the power of the other branches of government. The loss
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  Speaker 2: of the jury right was so important to them. It
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  Speaker 2: was one of the things that was listed in the
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  Speaker 2: Declaration of Independence as something that the British had taken
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  Speaker 2: away from the American colonists that could not be tolerated.
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  Speaker 2: Because to them, the jury had to stand between the
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  Speaker 2: judge and the parties, between the executive and the defendant,
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  Speaker 2: even between the legislature and the people. To make sure
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  Speaker 2: that justice was administered in accordance with the wishes of
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  Speaker 2: the community. And that's what we've lost as the jury
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  Speaker 2: trial has declined over the years.
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  Speaker 1: What are you foreseeing or is this even something that
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  Speaker 1: you can foresee and you've got to be able to
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  Speaker 1: take it one step at a time?
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  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I think Pierre and I do really try
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  Speaker 2: to take an optimistic approach to the topic because it's
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  Speaker 2: very easy to be doom and gloom, to look at
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  Speaker 2: the statistics and say, well, 1% of cases make it,
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  Speaker 2: and that's just how it is. But some of that
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  Speaker 2: social media fervor that you talk about, people getting really
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  Speaker 2: invested in jury trials. we think alludes to the really
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  Speaker 2: large role that the jury trial plays in the American
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  Speaker 2: cultural imagination. It's something that's really unique to us as
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  Speaker 2: a nation that's built into our democracy. And it's very
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  Speaker 2: fundamentally populist. This is a people's right. And we think
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  Speaker 2: that the attention that's going toward the judicial system right now,
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  Speaker 2: some of the frustration with that system, paired with with
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  Speaker 2: our love of the jury collectively, can be mobilized and
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  Speaker 2: can be brought into reforms that can make it easier
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  Speaker 2: for litigants to exercise their jury right, easier for people
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  Speaker 2: to serve on juries so they don't have to try
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  Speaker 2: to get out of it. And those types of experiments
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  Speaker 2: are underway across the country.
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  Speaker 1: This is such an amazing step. I love this book
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  Speaker 1: because it gives us reality and that is absolutely where
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  Speaker 1: I like to be. Where can people go to find
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  Speaker 1: out more information about you, Shannon? Because this is a
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  Speaker 1: book that needs to be discussed not only in high school,
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  Speaker 1: but college campuses and even outside here in the real world. Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 2: And so the book is available on Amazon. It's published
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  Speaker 2: via Cornell Press. So if the jury's out to fight
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  Speaker 2: to save the American legal system, it will be circulating
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  Speaker 2: in November. And we do hope that folks outside of
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  Speaker 2: the legal profession really enjoy the book. We tried to
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  Speaker 2: write it in an active and true crime style so
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  Speaker 2: that everyone can do.
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  Speaker 1: That. That's why I brought up the true crime people
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  Speaker 1: because I'm going, they're going to love this book because
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  Speaker 1: you do it in a way that they can relate.
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  Speaker 1: You're speaking their language.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and one of the main complaints we have is
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  Speaker 2: that for so long, you know, the disappearance of the
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  Speaker 2: jury has been a lawyer's only issue, that we're the
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  Speaker 2: only ones talking about it and we're not really doing
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  Speaker 2: anything about it. And so what hypocrites we would be
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  Speaker 2: if we then wrote a book for lawyers. So we've
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  Speaker 2: tried to write a book that is for everyone. And
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  Speaker 2: here and I have more of our information on the
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  Speaker 2: book on the website at and et cetera, if you
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  Speaker 2: want to learn any more about us.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you got to come back to this show anytime
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  Speaker 1: in the future. The door is always going to be
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  Speaker 1: open for you.
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  Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you be brilliant today, okay?
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  Speaker 2: Thank you. You too.