Latest / The Oath and The Office / Trump vs. the Rule of Law: A 5-Year-Old Detained + Election Power Grab

Transcript

Trump vs. the Rule of Law: A 5-Year-Old Detained + Election Power Grab · The Oath and The Office

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Welcome to another edition of The Oath and the Office.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm John Fugelsang. On this episode, the most normal sentence
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: ever uttered in a functioning democracy. The President sent the
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: director of National Intelligence to Georgia to rummage through ballots
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: from an election he lost five years ago. Nothing to
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: see here, just the nation's top intel officer hanging out
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: at a county election office like she's browsing at a
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: thrift store for ballot Scooby Doo. I need someone smarter
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: than me to make sense of this. Please, People of Earth,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Welcome the star of our show, Professor Corey Bretschneider. You
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: know him and love him from his work in the
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: poly Side apartment at Brown. You've seen him on CNN, MSNBC,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Time Magazine. You should already own the book The Oath
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: and the Office. Professor Bretschneider, it's so good to have
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: you with us.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Thanks John, What a pleasure to do this podcast with you.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: And you know, we started this show because we were
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: worried about a president who is going to disregard the
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. And you know,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I wish it turned out that we were totally wrong.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: And this is a normal presidency, but we know it's
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: anything baden The stories today really illustrate that. What you mentioned,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: the attempt to sue Trevor Noah, we'll talk about, Oh.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: We've got a lot anymore.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: We've got Telsey Gabbert and the Georgia Election Center raid
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: and Trump saying the quiet part out loud about taking
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: over the election. I want to talk about Trevor Nohen,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: the Grammys Epstein files as well, and the Epstein files
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: now affecting Trump's new pick to run the Fed and
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: do his bidding. But first we have to talk about
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: five year old Liam Ramos, who many of you got
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: to know from a photograph of this little boy in
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Minnesota wearing the blue bunny hat with his Spider Man backpack,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: a preschooler who was seized by ice to be bait
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: for his father, Adrian Alexander Cornejo Arias. They were sent
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: to the South Texas Residential Center in Dilley, Texas. They
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: are Ecuadorian asylum seekers. They are legal asylum seekers. And
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: this week what a blistering, blistering federal judge ruling ordering
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: the release of both father and son. Professor Wow Judge
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Biyery got fiery. I've become a real fan of outraged
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: judge rulings in the Trump era. But when a federal
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: judge says the government is ignorant of the Declaration of
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Independence and the Fourth Amendment, that's extraordinary language, right, I mean,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: that's not normal.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: It was a really tight, short and brutal assault, a lesson,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: as he put it, for the government and how our
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: basic system works.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: It's what we're really trying to do each week.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Come back to the basics of our law, of our constitution,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: the documents that formed it.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: And really this.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Judge brings us back. And this is going to sound
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: like an exaggeration, but read it. I'm the urging listeners
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: to read it to the thirteenth century, because what he's
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: really saying is that the writ of habeas corpus, which
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: goes back to Magna Carter, literally from the thirteenth century
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: in England, declaring that government can't just randomly hold people
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: in prison, can't just detain them with no reason, and
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: demand some reason. And the writ of habeas corpus, the
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: ancient writ of habeas corpus, requires the government not act arbitrarily.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And what is happening here in a petition for habeas corpus,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: is this child is really demanding and his father to
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: be told what's the reason here for holding me? And
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: what the judge says is not only is there not
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: a good reason, it looks completely random, a violation not
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: just of habeas corpus, which really goes to the foundation
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: of the rule of law, but the Fourth Amendment right
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: against unreasonable search and seizure. And you know, we'll talk
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: more about this, but one thing he doesn't mention that
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: I think is so important is that undocumented people have
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: rights under the Constitution, even if they're not citizens, even
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: if they're not legally here, as it looks like is
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: the case in this instance, because the.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Well they are, they are legally here. They're they're legal,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: they're legal asylum seekers. So I mean it is if
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: you are standing on our soil, it is legal to
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: claim asylum. And this guy was doing everything by the books,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: which is, by the way, why ICE has been spending
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: so much time at courthouses, because they're going after indiscriminate
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: brown people who are following the rules. But please go ahead, professor, Sorry.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I was just going to add that
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: in the end, it might be that this is a
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: deportation proceeding. They have a right to seek asylum, and
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: the judge makes it clear that in the end they
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: might actually be deported. They are going to be deported
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: under the procedures that ICE used, they were completely unreasonable.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: But even let's assume that there's another case here, and
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: this is I think just been lost in all this
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: horrible treatment of detainees by ICE. But the Court has
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: said that even non citizens, even undocumented people, have a
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: right to education. And the fact that this child was
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: seized I think it was coming back from school. You know,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: of course that's an interference with the right to education.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: That is a right of people, a person's according to
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: the Constitution. The Court has made that clear. What's happened
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: to our most basic laws that we have eyes acting
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: in this lawless way. And that's the screaming point that
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: this judge is making. And one last thing, just about
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: the Declaration of Independence. I love that part is really
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: saying what's the purpose of all these rights? It's a
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: response to tyranny, to monarchy, And we're right back to
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: the beginning, not back to before the founding of the country.
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: Again, back before the thirteenth century. That's really the point
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: of this amazing opinion.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, Corey. One of the deals with this podcast is
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: that I have to ask the dumb questions so you
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: can give the right answers and our listeners can feel smarter.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm here to be your deeply ignorant proxy.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: Dear listener, I have yet to hear you ask a
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: dumb question. I got to say, John Well, I mean we've.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Talked to We've talked in the past about how you know,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: the constitutional rights are not a limit on humans, it's
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: a limit on governmental power. And just to give a
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: refresher here, yeah, Judge Barry emphasized that even undocumented people
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: are entitled to due process and basic constitutional protections. When
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: our right wing friends try to compare this, well, Barack
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Obama and Joe Biden deported more people. Yeah they did,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: but those people all had hearings. They weren't kidnapping them
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: and dragging people out of cars by their hair and
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: throwing them without American gulag torture, without having a hearing
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: in front of a judge. Can you please just quickly
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: explain why equal protection applies regardless of immigration status. And
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: why this idea is foundational to American constitutional democracy. Our
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: rights extend to undocumented humans that are here.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Right, and I think to do that, we've got to
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: do what this judge helps us to do, which is
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: go back to the point of the American Revolution. It
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: was to go beyond limits on the monarch that had
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: been placed, and British democracy, although it was both democratic
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: and also had a monarchy, had progressed beyond absolute monarchy.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: There were all sorts of constraints on what the administration
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: could do. But of course the American Revolution, this is
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: the point about the declaration of a dependence, didn't think
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: that those limits were enough on the king, and especially
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: in relation to us to the colony. And so when
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: the king's abuses are pointed out, that isn't irrelevant to
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: the constitution. What we're trying to do in the Constitution
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: is resolved the abuses of a king like figure, including
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: a president. So how did we do it? And this
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: is your point, that we went to not just protect
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: rights of citizens, and citizens of course have rights that
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: are specific to citizenship, like voting, but to more broadly
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: protect all people from arbitrary imprisonment. That's the rit of
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: habeas corpus from unreasonable search and seizures. It's a fourth
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: amendment that this judge talks about. And I've been adding
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: this idea of equal protection of the laws after the
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Civil War, not limited to citizens, but a right of persons.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And that's why the court is said, especially when it
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: comes to children and their education, that they're included too.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. So you mentioned how the judge opened with habes
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Corpus the great writ just as a refresher professor, sure
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: for the you know, guys like me who are confused
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: by shiny things. Why is habes corpus especially important in
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: moments like this case with this five year old boy,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: when we see executive power being exercised and weaponized against
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: vulnerable people.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: You know, I think it's so important to think about
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: the bedrock principles of what it means to live in
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: a democracy and with the rule of law and a constitution.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: The phrase the rule of law not men is very
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: helpful here, right.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: It's meant to say, we don't just live under an
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: arbitrary tyrant. We have a system in which the law
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: governs and which that law is made by our democracy.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: So what is the point of habeas corpus. It is
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: the foundational right that says, and I'll say in the
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: simplest possible way, that if government's going to seize us
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: off the street or in our houses, it better have
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: a really better have a good reason. And that's the
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: presumption of our system that anybody can say. And I'll
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: just I want to say how this procedure works. You know,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: anybody who's held in American prisons and detention can petition
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: a federal judge under the constitutional federal right to be
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: told why am I being held? And when government gives
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: an answer, it's not enough to say, well, because I
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: said so. And that's what jd. Vance and Trump and
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Ice and Christy Nome are all.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: Trying to say.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: And this judge, in such a brilliant way is saying, no,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: that's not an answer. You have to have procedure, you
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: have to have respect for rights, and that's not happening here.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I want to see how remarkable it is seeing this
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: angry judge quoting both Thomas Jefferson and then the Gospel
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: of Matthew, and then Jesus said, let the little children
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: come to me, and do not hinder them. And then
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: he quotes the Gospel of John Jesus wept. I mean,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: we got some church and state in this pooling and
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: in the midst of all of this. Now, shout out
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: to Judge Reyes who just blocked the Trump administration from
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: ending temporary protective status for three hundred and fifty thousand
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Haitians who are living in the United States. Now this
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: was set to expire. There is obviously no plan from
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: this White House to renew it. These are hard working
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: folks who came here from Haiti. They are not able
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: to go back. It is not safe for them to
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: go back yet. And under President Biden they were welcomed here.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: And under President Biden we witnessed JD. Vance and Donald
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Trump spreading hateful, evil, demonstrably racist lies about these Haitians
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: stealing and eating pets. Now, this is a sore spot
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: for me because these folks and this side pretend to
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: be Jesus followers. The Republican governor said it wasn't true.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Republican mayor said it wasn't true. Chief of police. The
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: woman who reported her cat missing in the first place
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: later told The Wall Street Journal she found the damn
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: cat in her own basement and Jadvance actually went on
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: the record saying that he knew it was a lie,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: but it's okay because you need to do this to
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: get the media to talk about these kind of stories.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Now people have been terrified there'd be a mass roundup
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: of hundreds of thousands of folks who can't safely return
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: to Haiti because of the ongoing violence there and the
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: ongoing instant So this judge to a scathing comparison between
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: George Washington and Christy Noam, and once again we see
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: the judicial branch is the guardrail that is still holding,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: just as it did in Trump's first term. Not so
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: much the Supreme Court, but God bless these judges who
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: are looking out for the least of us.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I have something to say about the Supreme Court,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: but first I want to give a shout out to
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: this opinion as well.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: Which talks about the hostility.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: And this is blunt language that Christy Nome and her
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: team the administration generally has shown the hostility as she
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: puts it, to non white people.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: And of course that couldn't be a better description of what's.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Going on here. And I'll go back to my theme
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: of equal protection. You can't engage in our government at
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: any level. In animus, you can't discriminate based on your
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: prejudice based on arbitrary characteristics like race. It's almost the
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: core idea of the equal Protection Clause.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: Now there are limits to that.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So in the travel ban case, my colleagues and our
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: amicus brief and a brief that was cited by sotam
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Or in the Descent, we try to argue that even
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: if it's people outside the country trying to come in,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: that this equal protection idea, anti animous idea applies.
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: The court rejected that in Trump versus Hawaii, but now
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: we're reviving the argument when it comes to those inside
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: the country. And thankfully, at least this judge is saying
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if the people, the Haitians that we're
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: talking about, are citizens.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: You cannot show.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Racial hostility to a group and make a governmental decision,
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: even when about questions that the federal government has control
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: over like immigration and residency status, based on hatred. And
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: that's what's going on here. And you know this will
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: go through appeals. This is the kind of first round,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: but it's such common sense based on the public statements
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: that we've seen and the lies, the racist lies, as
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: this judge puts it against non white people. So you know,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: again we are seeing a vindication by the lower courts.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: One more thing about the Supreme Court john which is
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: so often in both these cases. I've just felt this
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: extreme frustration, and I'm not seeing the media reporting on this,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: but you and I have talked extensively about it. A
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: main power of these federal judges, both of these judges,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: has been stripped out as a result of the litigation,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: the Supreme Court's decision and the birthright citizenship litigation.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: And just to remind people.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: It used to be that what judges could say was,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: you know, there's a nationwide injunction. They could just say,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: for instance, in the case of children being seized, ICE
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: can't go near school districts and use the case in
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: order to have a nationwide block on systematic abuses of
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: civil rights. But I think, you know, as great as
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: these judges are acting in these cases, they're much more
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: limited than they should be, partly because of the Supreme
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Court and the most important abuse of power by a
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: president and a presidential administration has stripped the power of
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: these lower court judges to do as much as they
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: should be doing.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, there's much to cover here, and we'll
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: be talking about it in the weeks to come, but
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I want to shift gears, Professor and bring it to
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: the Grammy Awards. I know you're excited about bad Bunny.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: I know you're excited them Corey. The Cure won a Grammy.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: The Cure almost fifty years but The Cure won a Grammy.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: And Billy Eilish.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Said no when I was thirteen, right.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Hey, no, No. The new Cure album is so solid, man,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I've been playing it NonStop. And Billy Eilish saying that,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Billy Eilish saying that no one is illegal on Stolen Land.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Many highlights of this broadcast, And yeah, it's designed for
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: young people. It's not designed to necessarily award music. It's
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: designed to get ratings for a TV special. So it's
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: very geared towards young people. And that upsets a lot
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: of older folks and a lot of racist folks, and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: that's fun. It's designed to upset the straits. But the
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: story that's eclipsing everything else at the Grammys is a
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: joke from Trevor Noah that wasn't his strongest of the night.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: But it made the most impact, and I'm just going
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: to quote it verbatim. Song of the Year is a
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: grammy that every yar just wants, almost as much as
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Trump wants Greenland, which makes sense because Epstein's Island is gone.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: He needs a new one to hang out with Bill Clinton.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Now Trump actually Trump actually owns it. Trump actually owns
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: an island not far from from Epstein Island. And we
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: got to talk about that someday, because no one's ever
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: flown into Epstein Island. When someone says, oh, when Elon
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: muss hays, I never flew to Epstein Island, Well, no
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: one flies there. There's no landing strip. They go to
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: other islands and then crossover. So we'll get to Epstein.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: But Donald Trump now says to sue Trevor Noah for
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: joking about Epstein Island, and he never said actually he
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: went there. He said he needs a new one to
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: hang out with Bill Clinton, and he tried to cover
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: his bassis Trevor Noah, I know he's a good guy.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: He threw in Bill Clinton to have some red meat
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: for all the right wingers that we're still watching at
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: this hour. This seems constitutionally quite safe. I want to
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: see Trump sue anyway and get to the discovery process.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: I don't actually think Trump's going to go through with it.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: But under New York Times versus Sullivan, I have learned
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: a little bit about this from you. Under New York
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Times versus Sullivan, professor, how protect it is political satire
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: about public figures, especially presidents.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: It is very protected.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I have to say something about the Grammys and Bad
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Bunny and music in general. I mean, yeah, I think
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Bad Bunny has been incredible. I've been listening to the
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: new album and to his kind of version of reggaeton.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: It's a dance records man. I tell I tell all
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: these racists play that Bad Bunny album while you clean
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: your house. You can clean your house to it. You'll
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: be a fan then, yeah, but go on please.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: And you know, I think it's so important to see
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: artists speaking out in a clear way, and Bad Bunny
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: certainly has been speaking out against these awful detentions by Ice,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: this illegal behavior in as clear a way as possible.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: And you know, that's wonderful that he's doing it because
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: he is reaching people who might You know, everybody should
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: listen to the Oath in the office.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: But his audience, I think.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Has got a little bigger than ours, and he's reaching
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: different people in a different way, and so.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: His audience is a lot bigger than kid. Well, I mean,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: like they're having this alternate halftime show. Bad Buddy gets
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: eighty three billion streaming views. The kid rocks like, you know,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: nine million, but go on please, Yeah, and the guy
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: is so mainstream. Bad Buddy is so mainstream. And unlike
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Nicki Minaj, he's an American citizen. But a lot of
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: our friends on the right haven't learned these facts yet.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well he's pointing that out that right Puerto Rico.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: You know, born in Puerto Rico, you are a citizen.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: As much as many Trumpers want to deny it.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: I'll say two.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I mean this is a little more off topic, but
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: I know it's a topic close to your heart that
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: when it comes to music, there's nothing more powerful than
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: the Bruce Springsteen anti Ice song that's been released a
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: really incredible moment. So shout out to Bad Bunny and
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: to Bruce Springsteen of Courus. I mean, on your question,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: just to go back to it, here's what's frightening John.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: There is no question that under the current way that
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: we think about free speech, that satires protected, and that
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: joke is, you know, the definition of satire wasn't making
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: an accusation against Trump. And more than that that you
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: really have to show in our current way of understanding
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: the Supreme Court that there's intentional malice towards an individual,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: that even factual mistakes are protected.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: And that's for good reason.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Because you know you're getting sued every time on the oath,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: in the office, or on your show, on serious exam
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: that we make a mistake.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: We're not going to want to do it.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: We're not going to want to criticize Trump, and that's
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: exactly what he wants. So we're protected under this doctrine
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: of New York Times versus Sullivan that says us to
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: be specific, that when you're criticizing a public figure, you're
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: protected from being sued unless you're being malicious. But Trump
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: is trying to change all that he promised in twenty
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: sixteen to rewrite our libel laws. He's got justices like
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Thomas and possibly Alido pushing to get rid of these
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: protections and to allow him to sue his critics into oblivion.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: What a frightening idea that is, but it might come
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: to pass.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, legally speaking, if Trump did sue Trevor Noah,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: wouldn't discover potentially exposed far more damaging information about Trump himself.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, when you sign a law saying these documents
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: have to be released and someone makes a joke about
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: the documents you had released, I don't. I mean, it's
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: just more intimidation, isn't it.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, And even going back to well before New
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: York Times versus Sullivan, truth has long been a defense
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: in libel cases. So when you see somebody for libel,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: you're essentially saying that you know they lied or slander,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: that you were lied about in public and your reputation
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: was damaged. But one response to that is I didn't lie.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: I told the truth. That's an absolute defense to libel
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: and slander. But you know what if you insinuated something
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: that wasn't quite true or I'll go back to the
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: actual case when the NAACP was criticizing a police chief
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: that was attacking the civil rights movement, including Martin Luther King.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: This is the actual case New York Times versus Sullivan.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: There were mistakes about little details of factual assertions of
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: what the police chief had done, and the police chief
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: tried to sue the New York Times and the civil
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: rights groups that had taken this ad out. And what
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: the court said so brilliantly was, we're not going to
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: allow people to be sued when there when there are
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: questions of politics, public matters, and people involved to our
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: public figures, We're not going to allow them to sue
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: for small mistakes. So that's what it would protect Trevor Noah,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: and is not just you know, if he could show
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: that everything he said is true, okay, but that's too
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: much to show. That's too much of a burden. He
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: shouldn't even have to go there. And that's what that
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: case ensures. And even if it's not this joke, you know,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: you should be able to make an insinuation with satire
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: that might be not completely true, because that's what free
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: speech demands in the democracy.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: That's what it means to hold our leaders to account.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: But I knows, you, John, that makes sense. I did
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of cases.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: No, no, I'm following all of it. But I mean,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: but again, Trump and his and his flunkies are all
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: they've openly said they want to overturn Sullivan or dink
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, what would happen to journalism or political
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: speech or comedy if those protections disappeared? I mean, what
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: kind of right? What kind of riich are we looking
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: at here?
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, let's let's get specific.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: You know, because you and I are doing this all
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: the time. We have a podcast about calling this president
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: to account. Of course, we fact check it, We do
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of research. We're very careful as we were
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: preparing it. But if the case was overturned, and let's
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: say that we inadvertently made a mistake that we said
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: that you know, Trump had gone to this is a
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: hypothetical that a certain president had gone to Epstein Island
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: four times, but it had only gone three times, right
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: in this hypothetical example, and we were wrong that we
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: got we were off by one number because we didn't
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: check enough sources. That would be an instance of New
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: York Times versus Sullivan. Wasn't there where we could be
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: sued into oblivion. Now, think of what that would do
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: to the podcast, Like would we still be doing this?
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: I think you and I would be like, this is scary.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: You know, we talked about Trump all the day time.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Are we so sure that we're not going to make
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: one small mistake that he's going to sue us.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: And by the way, it's not him.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: He'd have his people sitting there listening to podcasts like this,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: looking for that small mistake and then.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: Jumping on it. And that's what And this is how
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: they solve them protects against and as we.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Discussed last week, this is how authoritarianism deals with free speech.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Now they don't throw journalists and goologs anymore. They sue
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: them into poverty. They know Trump and PAMBONDI know they
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: have no case against Don Lemon and the three African
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: American journalists who covered that non violent church protest that
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: had no property damage and no injuries. They were covering it,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: no laws broken. But that's not the point. The point
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: is to intimidate other journalists, have them nervously jugging their
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: stavings account. And Trump's whole emo has always been sue
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: people into oblivion with your unlimited resources, which is showing
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: that our court system can be a weapon for the
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: wealthy to use on the non wealthy.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a good way to put it, you know.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: I think, of course, he is trying to put people
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: in prison by having prosecutions of Letitia James and James
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: call me and now Don Lemon his opponents.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: He wants to throw them in jail.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: And we had an unfortunate period of time during the
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Sedition Act very early in our history, seventeen ninety eight
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: to about eighteen oh one, specifically, when that was routinely done,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: About one hundred and twenty six people were prosecuted under
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: this Edition Act. Trump is trying to bring it back.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: One of the cases that makes it very clear that
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: this Edition Act is unconstitutional is New York Times versus Sullivan.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: But it's so sophisticated in recognizing your point. I really
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: am grateful about this case because it recognizes just what
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: you said that even if you're not throwing somebody in jail,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: there are other techniques that the rich and powerful can
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: use to silence people. And I keep coming back to
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: our example. They could threaten us that we wouldn't want
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: to do this anymore.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: It would be too frightening if you were your entire.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Financial existence was dependent on the guarantee that you were
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: going to make a small factual mistake. And there's really
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: a case that protects us against that kind of weaponization
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: of the cores of the use of libel and slander
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: to stop people from speaking out and holding people the
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: powerful to account. And that's New York Times versus solvents
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: so important. And as you say, Trump is figuring it out.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: You know, he said he wants to shut down the
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: libel laws. That's what he said in twenty sixteen. Now
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: he's figuring out how to do it and he's got
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: allies on this off.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Wow. Important.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Well, then it will be great to watch Barack Obama
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: retroactively sue him for the years of racist lies that
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: he wasn't really a citizen wabate. That'd be great to see.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: By the way, again, Trevor Noah never said he spent
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: time on Epstein Island. But Trump sure is anxious to
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: deny this. And by us talking about this fake lawsuit,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: we're not talking about the damage evelations. So I guess
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: it worked. But you're right, he's going to send a
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: BS lawyer letter and then he's going to scamper off
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: and hide before the discovery face. We got to hit
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: a break. When we come back, we have to talk
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: about how they're trying to steal Georgia twenty twenty again,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: this is a bizarre story and I need your help, professor.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Don't go away right back on the oath in the office.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: Here's what you've been missing on the Stephanie Miller Happy
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: Hour podcast.
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: Telling woman to smile more part of his.
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: When they talk about child rape. You're being fairly unpleasant
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: when you're talking about child rape.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Stephanie, you're being so unpleasant right now?
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: I just I, first of all, the whole Hillary and
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: calm over right about everything? Pardon so we were already
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: mad enough and now and first of all, what did
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: he say in there?
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: And I'm so they came out and I'm I'm not
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: in there? What do you say, I'm not in there
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: at all?
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Or not?
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: Something like that, there's nothing about me in there? Oh,
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: i'd see if you don't count the fifty eight thousand.
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: Oh my god. Okay, And then once again, what are
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: we most pissed about? No other reporters stand up for
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: her like in the Quiet Piggy One? What the actual?
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: What is wrong with our media?
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: Subscribe to the Stephanie Miller Happy Hour podcast on Apple Podcasts,
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: Stephanie Miller dot com, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the oath in the office, I'm John
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Fiegel Sang along with Professor Corey Bretschneider. Professor, I want
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: to just review some facts here for this Telsea gabbered
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Scooby Doo mission in Georgia. We already know that Trump
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: already tried to steal Georgia in twenty twenty. We've all
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: heard him on tape telling the Secretary of State, find
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: me eleven seven eighty votes, not count them all, not
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: verify them, make sure it's the right number. Manifest this.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Georgia had multiple recounts headed by a Republican Secretary of
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: State who voted for Trump. They found no evidence of
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: voter fraud. The courts rejected him, the recounts confirmed the loss.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Judges left him out of the room. Giuliani lost one
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: hundred and forty eight million for lying about this election.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: So naturally, the next step is wait five years and
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: send the Director of National Intelligence to an FBI raid
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: to seize ballots from an election that has been audited
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: far more times than Trump University. This is not election integrity,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: this is election necrophilia. So by any measure, cory the
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: FBI seizing truckloads of ballots from a five year old
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: election is unprecedented. But from a rule of law standpoint,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: what alarms you the most about this search?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, John, We've had a lot of amazing
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: guests and amazing episodes, but one of my favorites is
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: certainly last week when we had Tom Jocelyn, who literally
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: wrote the January sixth report for the House Committee, helped
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: America to understand this plot to steal an election, this
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: attempted coup, and how at the level of the states
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: and the demand for fake electors, the demand for votes
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: literally the vote number of votes.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: Needed to win.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: How all that fit in with both the violence at
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: the Capitol and the pressure on Mike Pence to really
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: refuse to certify legitimate votes and to throw things to
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: the House of Representatives where you know, they had counted
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: the votes and under a pretty obscure procedure or in
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: the twelfth Amendment, the House of Representatives would have voted
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: to elect Donald Trump president. They had it all figured out,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: but it was stopped and it was uncovered largely by
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: I was going to say by Jack Smith, but by
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Joscelyn first, who exposed the plot with his Committee and
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: really put pressure on Smith to bring those on I
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: should say on Merrick Garland to appoint Smith who brought
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: those charges largely based I think on the research that
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Joscelyn and his.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Team had done.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: So why am I detouring into that not just because
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: it was a great episode, Because I thought one of
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: the most important points of the whole episode was Joscelyn
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: saying it's still happening, you know. I mean, that's what
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I took away from it, that it never ended the
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: plot to steal the election. And here we are Trump
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: ordering Tulca Gabbert to basically do his bidding, using the
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: power of the national government to try again to steal elections.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: And when you combine that with his horrific I mean
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: some of the worst statements I know, we're about to
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: get to this saying that we need to nationalize elections
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: when they are in the control of local governments as
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: you saw in Georgia.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: What that would mean.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: It would mean that he could make we'll get there, yeah,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: and steal elections.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: We'll get there. But I got to talk about Telsey first. Yeah, sorry, yeah,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I have too many dumb questions about Telsea Gavern. First,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: professor before we could even get to Donald Trump's saying
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: the quiet part out loud because they didn't campaign on
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: this in twenty twenty four, right, They didn't bring this
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: up once in twenty twenty five. They didn't need to
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: do this until right before the midterms. So, I mean,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: this isn't about twenty twenty. This is about how they
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: want to find eleven thousand votes in twenty twenty six.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: There is no obvious legal reason for the Director of
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: National Intelligence to be present at a domestic election raid.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: It's getting the conspiracy theories fired up, and I've got
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: a few that I'm kind of obsessed with. But what
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: is her involvement there signal to you?
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, the federal government is supposed to be
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: set up in a way the president can't weaponize the
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Director of National Intelligence or the FBI to simply go
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: after political opponents.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: But here's the problem.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: All of the ways of isolating the president's political ambitions
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: and desire to win at all costs have been separated
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: from institutions like you mentioned Telsea Gabber. But of course
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: also the FBI was through norms and that after Nixon,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: there were a series of ways in which the Justice
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Department in particular was interacting with the FBI in a
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: way to isolate them from the president specifically, and the
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: president's ability, as Nixon did, to seek the prosecution or
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: destruction of political opponents. But the legal barriers are few
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: and far between. There should be, and we did have
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: periods of time where there would be independent prosecutors, for instance,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: that could look into wrongdoing, but all that's gone, it's
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: all subsumed under the president. And some of the worst
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: details in this reporting most frightening is how obvious and
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: direct the control and order has come from the President
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: of the United States to look into this so called
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: wrongdoing really to mess with elections.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's terrifying. It's so scary. New York Times reported
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: professor that Telsey Gabbard called Trump from inside the FBI
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: meeting and put them on a speakerphone with these loyal
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: FBI agents investigating on Trump's behalf, like he's given them
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: a workout pep talk. It's the President of the United
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: States personally hyping federal agents in an investigation that directly
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: benefits him. How is this not a mob boss checking
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: in on the crew? I mean, how does this compare
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: to basic DOJ norms about independence and non interference.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: You know, there are so many norms that are being flouted.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: And again Nixon did a lot of what we're talking about,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: of course, most famously in Watergate itself. It was an
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: attempt to interfere with an election and the presidents and
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: the people. I detail all the unknown instances that DOJ
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: was looking into in which he went after his opponent
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Daniel Ellsberg, the attack on Ellsburg's psychiatrist's office, and as
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: I get out through one of the last interviews with
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Elsburg that he gave before he died, also the attack
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: to kill him and incapacitate is how some members put it.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: And Nixon's dirty tricks involved the CIA, and involved the plumbers,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: who are a sort of rogue unit within the White House.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: And certainly he was willing to weaponize even the irs
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: and agencies that were supposed to be independent. So after Nixon,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: these norms that we were talking about were established, certainly
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: within the Department of Justice, to create a situation in
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: which there was independence for the FBI and for the
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Attorney General and for all the employees of the Department
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: of Justice from being able to be co opted. But
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: these were all done through regulations, through norms within the department.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: And Trump, you know, when it's not legal, when it's
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: not criminal violation, for instance, to do what Trump did,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: and when you have the immunity case to protect him further,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: he can just blow through those norms. So we're right
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: back to Nixon using what are supposed to be internationally
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: focused institutions like the Director of National Intelligence the FBI,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: combining them that alone is a violation of the norm
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: and then causing it to try to steal elections, and
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: you know, we're right back to where we started with Nixon.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: No, it's I mean to me, this is like, you know,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: this five year old, It's like watching Star Wars try
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: to retcon episode nine through TV shows for the geeks
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: out there. But here here's my question, because we always
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: have to bring up the stupid part, and this is
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: a stupid bunch of humans. By speaking directly with the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: FBI agents investigating on.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: His behalf amazing detail, didn't.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Trump just give ammunition to any future defense if they
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: ever decide to charge anyone in this case? I mean,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: his conversation with the agents doing the investigation that would
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: help him, would have this whole case dismissed as a
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: vindictive prosecution, right or is this just me getting you know,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: too big for my bridges here.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's hard to show vindictive that the
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: motivation of the prosecution is enough to undo guilt. So
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: that's one worry that maybe not even though it is
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: so egregious you would hope so. But I also don't
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: think it's necessarily the point here is to bring charges
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: because what we've seen in the cases that we talk
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: about so often in Don Lemon, in Letitia James and
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: James Comy is the attempt is to shut down critics
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: and us, whether it's libel laws or using the FBI
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: to conduct a raid, it's to frighten people. And even
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: if they can't get a conviction in court, as we
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: keep saying, it's part of the technique of the web
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: of going after opponents. Trevor Noah, you know, probably won't
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: be successfully sued, but are comic's gonna think twice about
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: going after him?
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: Even the joke itself. You said this, but I.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Don't want listeners to miss listen. So Bill he had
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: to throw Bill Clinton in there because he was worried
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: about looking biased. I mean he's even thinking of that's
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: itself the First Amendment.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: Scholars talk about a chilling effect.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: The idea is like, even if speech isn't shut down
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: formally the way that it was during this Sedition Act,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: you can scare the hell out of people and threatening
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: live ball, threatening to get rid of New York Times
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: versus sullivent, even if you don't do it, threatening these
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: prosecutions and there's raid. Even if it doesn't result in prosecutions,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: it is a chilling effect.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: That's the danger.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: I completely agree, And I just want to say to
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: UFBI agents who took that call, if you're listening, just
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: remember Trump has immunity for crimes. Y'all don't. And history
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: is history is littered with people who thought they were
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: just following orders right up until the subpoena has showed up.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: So in the midst of all of this, Cory, I
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: just have to do a sidebargain.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: I say, John, I got to interrupt because I just
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: love that lie. Yeah, yeah, I think we need an
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: oath in the office bumpersticker that says Trump has immunity,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: you don't.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: And you don't. In the midst of all this Michigan
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: as and I don't know if this is going to
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: wind up being connected, but a whistleblower complaint against completely
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: unqualified DNI, former Democrat who hated Trump, Chelsea Gabbert, who
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: then flipped for power. There's a whistleblower complaint against her
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: that is so sensitive that for months the administration has
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: been figuring out how to tell Congress it exists. This
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: is new, This is not how whistleblower laws work. And
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: the complaint directly concerns Telsa Gabbard. Again, this is the
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Director of National Intelligence directly concerns her, implicates another federal agency.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: It may involve executive privilege, and it has been stone
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: walled and covered up without precedent, and they asked about
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: it her office set. It's baseless and politically motivated, which
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I think is a fancy way of saying, stop asking questions.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Before this becomes a Netflix documentary, I should say that
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Telsa Gabbard has a long posy record of defending dictators
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: and adversaries. She loves putin she loved a sad when
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: he was killing people in Syria. She has not been
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: present for major Intel briefings, and apparently the reports are
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: that she's not trusted inside the Intel Committee with good reason,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: and yet this is the person Trump sends to Georgia
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: to chase his election fantasy. So the question I have, professor,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: is what's more likely that Tulsey Gabbard on our own
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: uncovered earth shattering evidence missed by dozens of courts and
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: state officials and DJA investigations five year and Republican election
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: officials couldn't find five years ago. Or is it more
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: likely that Donald Trump picked an obedient supplicant with compromised
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: credibility to help him launder another lie.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think this is a hard question. Some
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: very very hard questions today. I'll give this to an
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: easy one. It's very clear that he's ordering the FBI here,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: that he's ordering Telsea Gabbard.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: To do all of this. And you know, we've got
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: to think too about.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: How we recover, and we need criminal legislation that protects
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: America against abusing its national intelligence. It's CIA to be
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: engaged in domestic abuses. We went through this in the
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventies with the CIA investigation by Congress and by
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: institutions like The New York Times, uncovering how many abuses
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: there had been in Latin America and other places, and
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: now we're seeing the Director of National Intelligence abuse her
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: power in the worst possible way to help Trump spread
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: the lie that you know, there's election fraud against him,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: and to further the conspiracy of January sixth. To go
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: back to Tom Joscelyn's point, we need to make this criminal.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: And I think that we never really reckoned with how
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: dangerous Nixon was and Nixon's abuse of foreign intelligence, and
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: in this information war that we're in, it becomes all
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: the more important.
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: I'd like to see an iron wall that.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Prevented anything like the Director of National Intelligence being involved
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: in domestic investigations like this from ever happening again.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: They weren't able to cover up whistle blow or complaint
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: against the president call, but this whistleblower complaint against the
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Director essal Intelligence, who is a person with a problem
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: with honesty, has been locked away. I mean, is there
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: any legitimate justification for covering this up and blocking Congress
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: from receiving such a complaint. I mean, what does that
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: mean for democratic oversight when the president can just cover
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: up whistleblower complaints involving an executive branch.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm always looking for themes, and this
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: relates an interesting way to free speech, and Trevor Noah,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: the whole idea of a democracy relies on information flow.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: The voters who are going to make decisions about how
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: our country should proceed, that we know what's going on.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: And if you silence the critics who are trying to
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: hold Trump accountable, including satirists, that information flow doesn't happen.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: And a related ideas whistleblowers. That's the reason for all
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: these legal whistleblowing protections so that we the people, the citizenry,
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: can hear what's going on and to hear about abuses.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Relatedly to the inspectors general who have been shut down
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: within various government agencies who are also supposed to provide information.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: So what this war is is as much and we've
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: talked about this with Malcolm Nance and others, it is
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: an information war. And so yeah, the whistleblowers are a
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: threat to the regime and silencing them as much as possible,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: that's what's going on here.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: So let me bring this full circle then, because this
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: is a very long story, and again we don't know
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: if the whistleblower event is related, but it sure seems
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: to be. But all of this is going on because
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: subtlety is not Trump's thing, neither is game. Trump goes on,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: disgraced and loathed by Mega Dan Bongino's show, his new
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: old show, and he just blurts it out. He just
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: ran a focus group on stealing an election. He said
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Republicans should take over the voting, should nationalize the voting,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: and should take over elections in at least fifteen places.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: So we're not even pretending anymore, Professor, nationalized the voting
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean election security. It means put elections under this
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: felon's personal control. Now I have learned from you elections
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: are run by states by design. Yeah, I know, a
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: federal takeover requires Congress. I mean, this isn't dementia or paranoid.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: This seems to be a playbook. What do you make
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: of this guy saying that, from a constitutional perspective, he's
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: going to take over or nationalize our elections. I mean,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: we're well into Mussolini and Franco territory here.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I've been teaching the Federalist papers to my class and
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: shout out to them who see the connections, and I'll
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: make it extremely obvious, Madison says in the Federalist papers,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: you know, there are two kinds of checks on power.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: One is department to department that we have Congress checking
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: a president. We have the court checking a president. So
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: we're not going to have a dictator. Well, that turns
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: out not to be a terrific check when the Congress
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: is controlled. He didn't anticipate the rise of political parties.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: When it's controlled by the president's party, and when the
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Court is essentially controlled by the president's party, those checks
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: don't really work well. The anti federalists, those who are
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: just not to ratify the constitution, predicted exactly that that
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: you would get the president acting as a sort of
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: co conspirator with the other branches, especially a criminal president,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: as Patrick Henry used the phrase. But there is one
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: check that Madison talked about that I think is working
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: in a better way that we can rely on more,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: although it's being challenged, and that's the role of the states.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: We don't allow elections to be controlled by the federal
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: government through one centralized person, because if that person is
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: the president and his cronies.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: They can cheat And if you think of why.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: The plot failed on January sixth, there were a lot
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: of reasons, but one was that states refused, to many
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: states to send these fake electors. And there was a
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: recognition too that the vice president of the United States
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: wasn't going to usurp the role of the states and
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: sending electors. Now imagine that that system is wiped away
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: and the real control over you know, you'd have the
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: same person. This is what ties to the FBI story,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: sending the FBI in order to find a fake election fraud,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: claiming fraud every time he lost in any election or
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: his party lost in congressional elections. So you nationalize the elections,
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: you take away that main Madisonian check, the idea of
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: dual sovereignty, that we have a federal government and we
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: also have sovereignty of the states. That's protecting us right now.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Of course that's had a bad history too, an anti
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: civil rights history, but right now it's the main threat.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: I'd say, that's keeping us from full on dictatorship.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, so last question on this. I know we see
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: parallels in other countries where leaders use legal or rhetorical
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: groundwork to discredit elections. And absent Congress, Trump can't legally
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: do this. Here's my dumb question for this block or
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: and then we'll take a break, as I know, we
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: want to talk Epstein. Why does the Constitution deliberately place
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: election administration primarily with the states? I know it's a
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: dumb question, but what is the danger if a chief
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: executive tries to centralize that power under him?
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I think you know. Madison's really trying to respond.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: I'm going back to James Madison, the Federal space perers.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: He's trying to give the best response he can to
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: your question. The question is what's to prevent the president
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: from becoming a dictator and taking all the elections Sayer
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: House of Representatives and making it all about ensuring that
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: he wins and stays in power, that kind of critique
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: about a criminal president. And his answer is, well, we
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: don't have a unitary system in which the president controls everything.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: We have.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: The role of states is having independent powers, and regulation
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: of elections has got to be one of the most
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: important ones, and that prevents against cheating of the most
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: bold kind. We've seen this president again and again not
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: just do it by sending the FBI, for instance, to
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: look into fake election fraud, not just in January sixth,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: which is the main smoking gun. And I urge listeners
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: again to listen to the details last week of how
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: he almost succeeded in stealing this election. But if he's
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: able to wrestle control over elections, including questions of fraud,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: you'll see exactly what he says did when he sent
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: the FBI in and what he.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: He's you know, listen to him.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: This is one of the most frustrating things that I've
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: seen from commentators not paying attention to what he says.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: When he says he wants to nationalize elections, we know
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: what that means.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: He wants to steal them.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: And that's really what's keeping it from happening is local control.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Amen, we got to hit a break, but when we
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: come back, we got to talk about this new FED
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: chair Kevin Walsh, because Donald Trump really really does not
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: want an independent Federal Reserve. We've known it for a
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: long time. He wants it to be obedient, but apparently
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: he wants it pretty creepy too. Back in a moment,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: this is worth in the office.
• 45:37
  Speaker 6: One million downloads. That's the listenership. That good news for
• 45:41
  Speaker 6: Lefties has gotten since we started bringing you positive news
• 45:45
  Speaker 6: stories for progressives every day of the week. These may
• 45:49
  Speaker 6: be difficult times and the headlines may seem bleak, but
• 45:53
  Speaker 6: if you believe in justice, progress and democracy, you are
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: not alone. There are millions like you, and there is
• 46:01
  Speaker 6: reason for hope in the news every single day. That's
• 46:06
  Speaker 6: what we remind you on. Good News for Lefties and
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: America every day of the week, Positive news stories for
• 46:13
  Speaker 6: progressive listeners, because no matter how disturbing the headlines might be,
• 46:18
  Speaker 6: there's always hope that we can build on for a
• 46:20
  Speaker 6: better tomorrow. One million downloads and more coming. Good News
• 46:27
  Speaker 6: for Lefties and America. Listen on this platform at good
• 46:31
  Speaker 6: News for Lefties dot com or wherever podcasts are heard.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Oath in the Office podcast. I'm
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: John Fegel saying, hey, Professor Bretchnider, have you have you
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: heard the Springsteen song yet?
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: Streets? I have Anneapolis, I have them.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: As I mentioned before, enthusiastic about it.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: It can do.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: Music can do things that just claim, you know, legal
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: analysis can't, and Bruce has done both. I mean it
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: seems to have legal analysis but also to have music
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: that the way that he says that they claim that
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: self defense in these two cases, but we saw what happened,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: and you know the bluntness of it and the clarity,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: and so I just really I was thrilled.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: And heartened to see it.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: I think, John, you interviewed Bruce Springsteen at one point, right,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Is that correct?
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, I have, I've been I've been blessed to have
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of the Street Band on our Serius XM show.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: I got to interview Bruce years ago when I was
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: very young for VH one and just an absolute prince.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you what a lovely guy
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: he is. And you know, this is everything they wanted
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Bob Dylan to be. Bob Dylan hasn't done a political
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: song in forty or fifty years. Bob's not going to
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: do it. And Springsteen is everything they told us Elvis was,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: but Elvis couldn't play guitar or write songs like him.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, he is really the greatest rock star this
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: country has produced. For me, and I want to recommend
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: to you and our listeners check out Billy Bragg's song
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: City of Heroes. It's a very stripped down acoustic number.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Billy Bragg has been a fantastic advocate for working people
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: and for justice and racial justice for decades. I remember
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: I worked when I was very young. I worked at
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: the rally for Nelson Mandela Yankee Stadium, and Billy Bragg
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: was one of the artists who perform City of Heroes
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: is just as good as the Springsteen song It will
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: turn you on. Trust me. Now I want to talk about.
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: Can I ask you one more question? John Yah?
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Of course, I'd much rather talk music and talk about
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: you know, pedophiles. Go ahead.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, we have a moment and I don't know
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: how many of our listeners know that you were a
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: VJ at VH one and how extensive of course, and
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: your expertise is about music.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: But there is a chance for some of them who
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: don't know to hear it.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: I mean you introduced me to David Crosby, of course
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: in the serious XM studio.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Oh that's right, I did, I forget.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: Yes, an amazing moment.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Oh I loved him. I loved him so much.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: What an amazing chance to meet a real hero. And
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: of course Crosby was involved, and to my mind, and
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm interested in what you think. After Ken
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: State in this amazing song about the massacre there.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, do you think this?
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: I mean that that that I think came to define
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: the anti Nixon realization that you know, murdering students was
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: not okay and that Nixon really was moving in this
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: tyrannical direction, that that we weren't going to tolerate, and
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: that song did it in a way that was so powerful.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Do you see an analogy between the Springsteen song here
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: and and Crosby or is it is it?
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: Is it hard to match? What?
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: First off, Ohio is really more of a a Neil
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Neil song that was that was all Neil Young, but
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: and he wrote it more.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: It's not Crosby stals Nation and Young or it's.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah but yeah, but it's it's Neil sang it and
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Neil wrote it.
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: I keep looking for this carllary and we see it
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: sometimes with hip hop artists. We see it sometimes with
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: rock artists, artists who are willing to take the stupidest
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: thing that humans have ever invented, fame and use that
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: fame to help the less fortunate, use that celebrity to
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: advance issues of social justice. A lot of older people
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: when actors do this and when actors use their reward
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: speeches to pontificate, and yeah, sometimes they're tone deaf and
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: they came off as preaching and thirsty, and it doesn't
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: always work well. Springsteen is someone who's always hit the
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: right notes with this. I mean, this guy won an
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Oscar for a song about a man with AIDS in
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: the early nineties, like this man is always born in
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: the USA was the greatest act of artistic cultural resistance
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: against the Reagan regime when I was a kid. He's
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: never shied away from it. He's always lent his hand
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: to causes that uplift the working man, and people mock
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: him all the time for being well. Springsteen does it
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: himself in better days. He says, a rich man than
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: a poor man's shirt. But the reality is there's rich
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: people who fight to have their own taxes raised, and
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: then there's rich people who fight to tech their wealth
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: and cut funding for the less fortunate. Robert F. Kennedy
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Senior Robert F. Kennedy was a guy who was born
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: of incredible wealth, and the more famous he became, he
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: argued for raising his own taxes. Rob Reiner was a
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: very wealthy man who grew up wealthy and argued to
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: raise his own taxes. Bruce Springsteen votes for the people
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: who try to raise his own taxes. That is a
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: very unique form of patriotism that I think we need
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: to celebrate a lot more.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: And it's also if I heard you're right that you
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: know there could be forms of celebrities speaking out against injustice,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: that is just them pontificating. But what Neil Young, and
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: thanks for the correction there. It's my turn to make
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: mistakes and not understand things when we're talking about music.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: What happened there in this Neil Young song, you know,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: wasn't just speaking out of course, It was the creation
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: of an amazing art piece that shifted the terrain and
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: that you see, Bruce, of course, and I certainly agree
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: doing that here with this this amazing song against.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: And I should I should also say, because I'm thirsty,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: that I told Stephen Still's this, and I told Graham
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Nash this, and I told David this many times. I
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: will always believe that Crosby, Stills and Nash helped end
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. And Bob Dylan is said he thinks
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: it too, that their activism and their music and the
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: way they presented their music in the nineteen sixties. I
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: wasn't around, but for all the all that I've learned
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: about the era, that their music helped culturally to turn
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: the tide against this war. And I think that's a
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: profoundly moral act for an artist to undertake.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've gotta ask one more question, John, why
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: are we not seeing more of this? I mean, we
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: have these two instances that we've talked about where ice is.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: You know that we have songs calling out the evil
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: of what's happening. But I feel like during the Vietnam War,
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, there was more
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: of it that was part of the music landscape.
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: So why are we not seeing it? Is it commercial?
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: I mean the music industry.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: No, I think a lot of a lot of artists.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Look here, here's what I say on this one. I
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: don't get to impose my will on other artists, right.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: I would love Bob Dylan to do more political music.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: He really hasn't since Hurricane fifty years ago. Maybe some
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: would say neighborhood Bully in the eighties, But like you know,
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: if Bob Dylan doesn't want to write protest anthems in
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: his eighties it's not his job. I would love to
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: see Paul McCartney take a braver stand. Paul McCartney takes
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: really brave stands on animal rights, on gun violence. He
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: made one joke once about George W. Bush. That's as
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: brave as he got, you know. I think of young
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Paul McCartney getting banned on the BBC for writing give
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Ireland Back to the Irish, which is still a banging
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: wing song fifty years later. I would love to see
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: these artists put their popularity on the line when you've
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: got hundreds of millions of dollars and maybe it's okay
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: if a few right wing people don't buy tickets to
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: your live shows or don't buy that. No one buys
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: albums anymore anyway, so you're not taking ahead. But it's
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: not my place to impose my will on an artist.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Artists have to do what they want. And there's a
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: lot of times when I just want to do stand up,
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: you know, about drinking and sex and dogs and cats,
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: and I wouldn't want someone to tell me I have
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: to talk about anything. But yeah, it grieves me. Obviously.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: In the hip hop community, you've got great art. I mean,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: Chuck d and Public Enemy have just been so consistent
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: for decades at most death. There's plenty, plenty of MC's
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: in hip hop that are very, very political, and I'd
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: like to see more of it. I mean, the Black
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Eyed Peas started being very political and then they decided
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: they wanted to hire Fergie and make a lot of
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: really successful, questionable pop music. Yeah, I'd love Sean everyone
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: to be like Sean Penn and put your popularity on
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: the line, but it's not an artist's job. I wish
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't, but it's not their job.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I pushed back a little bit and
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: that I think, you know, this is not a moment
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: to be caring about your MAGA ticket buyers or your
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: base that wants to see you transcend politics.
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: It's not time to transcend politics.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Gamed to do what Crosby, Steels, Nash and Young lead
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: I've now learned by Neil Young did, which was to
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: take a very clear stand against the murder of people
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: or in this case, the awful abduction without any right.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: So this is not a partisan moment, and so I
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: just hope this is the beginning we are have seen
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: it with Bad Bunny, and we've seen it with Bruce
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: Springsteen and with Billy Bragg. I agree, you know, let's see.
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: Let's have but again.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: But like you know, it comes in interesting places. I mean, look,
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: look at look at Kimmel, Like Jimmy Kimmel's gonna you know,
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Kimble's gonna get a Presidential Medal of Freedom someday, right,
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, because Trump went after him. I mean,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: don Lemon, he's not an artist. But I mean we
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: do see it, you know, and we do see resistance
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: and unexpected places. No one talks about how Monday Night
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: Football is really the hero of getting Kimmel back on
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: the air. When Trump tried to sense an artists because
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: it was Monday Night Football, that said to Saint Clair affiliates, Okay,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: you wanted to keep the show off the air. You're
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: not getting us. And you know, I'll praise big corporations.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: I'll praise Disney when they occasionally stand up and do
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: the right thing, and I will praise artists for doing
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: it as well. It's very frustrating to me. I mean,
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of artists who would actually
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: their popularity would benefit from taking a stand. And at
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: this point, I don't think it's partisan to call out
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: human rights abuses. I think it's partisan to play dumb
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: about human rights abuses. I think that's the part is
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: an angle on this and I want to bring it
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: to the new fedchare pick.
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: I'm going to wait for this transition.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Look, well, I don't have a transition for you. I
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: love this topic and I could talk about it all day,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: but I don't want our listeners to grow old in
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: this episode. But but but I'll talk about this with
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: you anytime, because it's it's very important to me. And
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: like I, you know, there's there's artists who have the
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: guts to do it, and you know it is we're there.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: It's not their job. It's not their job. I wish
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: they would.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it is this moment I think in
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: which constitutional law and all these ideals of the founding
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: that we're talking about, and of course the news stories
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: that we're covering, you know, have to intersect with the culture.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: And there has to be a way of capturing people emotionally.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: And that's what this Bruce Springsteen song does. That's what
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Ohio does. Even when I hear it now, even though
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: it's not something I lived through and you know, I
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: think just paying attention to it really does. Although it
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: seems like a different topic music and culture.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: It's so much no it's but it's not. I mean,
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: look at it's not a different topic.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: Look at Nina Simone, look at Gil Scott Heron, look
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: at Billie Holliday singing Strange Fruit. There's an incredible tradition
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: of artists actually using not just using their platform to
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: fight for bigger issues than themselves, but it being commercially
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: viable as well. I mean, you got a good hook
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: it well, look at Creeden's Clearwater revival. John Fogerty deserves
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: the Presidential Medal of Freedom. In my opinion, he wrote
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Fortunate Son, and then he wrote the best song about
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: the Iraq War, Dejavou all over again. So I'm a
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: big believer in it. And you know, there's artists that
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: I would love to see be more brave. But I've
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: learned over the years, Professor, I can't impose my morality
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: on another person's artistic output. I just can't. I want
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: them all to be like Bruce, but you know that's
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: I think it's good for your career too. But I'm
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: grateful for the ones who have the guts to do it,
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: but we do have to get to the FED, which
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: is morally the opposite of Bruce Bringsteen. So we've talked
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: a lot about how Donald Trump can't stand that Jerome
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: Powell and the Federal Reserve are independent, and he's the
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: way he's strong armed him all year to cut interest rates,
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: to hide the negative impacts of these tariffs, and he's
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: gone after he's trying to sick the DOJ on him
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: is just shameful and embarrassing, and it's easy to overlook
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: as there's so much what the f's coming at us
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: every day. So now Trump's not really waiting for Chairman
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: Powell to leave. He's appointing his replacement, this guy, Kevin
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Warsh And this is a fascinating chap close family ties
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: to Trump. He's they believed the son in law, our
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: grandson in law of Ron Lauder political connections and what
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: an Epstein history. Kevin worsh appears in these emails that
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: were released on Friday so many times. I don't really
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: know if this nomination is already dead in the water,
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: but I want to ask you about it anyway. Why
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: is Federal Reserve independence from presidential pressure. So it's critical
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: to democratic stability in this country. I hate that we
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: need to remind people of this.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I do think that it's worth going
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: in depth on this because the Federal Reserve is created
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: by Congress, and like many independent agencies, is supposed to
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: be insulated from the most gross political decision making. And
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: all Trump wants to do is lower interest rates to
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: stimulate the economy in as fast a way as possible.
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: And that's not the Fed's job.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: The Fed's job is to care about unemployment and to
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: look out for the danger of inflation, and to use
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: their best judgment accountable to Congress. And this FED share
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: has been brilliant about reporting to Congress, cultivating relationships with Congress.
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: But that's the as it's known, the dual mandate.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: Now, you know, the question now about this nominee is
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: whether or not. There's a debate among economists. Some are saying, actually,
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: this guy is really not going to do Trump's bidding,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: that he hates inflation, and that he's actually doesn't like
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: cutting interest rates, that he's going to bring them up,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: and that he cares about inflation.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: He's not going to just do Trump's bidding.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: So that's one in I think the markets have largely
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: reacted thinking that. I'm not exactly sure why, but I
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: think that's almost the mainstream reporting. But Paul Krugman and
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: others and I take it you have a very different
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: way of seeing it. And I'll add myself to this too,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: which is this guy doesn't have principles. It looks like
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: he's somebody who wanted to keep interest rates high during
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: Biden because he was worried about his stimulation of the
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: economy that could help Democrats in a future election.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: And if Trump.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: Wants lower interest rates, it's not a matter of principle,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: he's going to give Trump what he wants. That he
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: really is a sycophant. And Krugman goes so far as
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: to say, too.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: He's not.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't have the expertise that Krugman has,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: and Nobel Prize winning economists from Princeton now Cooney New
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: York Times columnists, I'm sure our listeners are well familiar
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: with him. But his assessment is the guy is a
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: bullshitter that he's looked at the way. It sounds like
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: he knows the words of economics, but he doesn't know
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: how to make an argument, Yeah, that he isn't a
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: serious thinker, and then what he is is a Trump
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: sick defen and that certainly fits with everything that we've
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: seen from Trump's other appointments.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to point out that he's actually
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: married to Ron Lauder's daughter, so he's the son in
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: law or a grandson in law of Este Lauder if
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: you want to go back for a deep And his
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: name is on some email guest lists for a Christmas
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: event in Saint Bart's with Epstein, but there is no
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: evidence that he ever met Epstein attended the event. We're
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: going to see a lot of well known names showing
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: up in these files. This guy was a financier, you know.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: I mean a lot of artists went to him to
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: get funding for their movies. We have to always acknowledge
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: that unless something specifically alleged, we have to acknowledge that
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: it isn't. And he moved in a lot of circles.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, Martha Stewart, you know, is on the same
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: invite list as this guy. So it's going to probably
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: be a factor. If it's not, it's going to be
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: curious to see why this guy's name in the Epstein
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: files is okay. Other people Trump wants to humiliate for it,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: the hypocrisy will be all over the place. But you
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: look at the family ties. Like I said, the political
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: connections Trump and Ron Lader go way back. What standards
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: should apply to someone who is controlling US monetary policy?
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess their personal life doesn't matter. But
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: what standards should matter?
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think the question is it's a
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: job of expertise. The whole reason why the legislation that
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: creates the Federal Reserve also insulates the FED chair from
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: firing is because it's dangerous for the economy to let
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: the president juice the economy when he or she wants.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: For political reasons. And that's exactly what Trump wants to do.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: And so that independence is meant to put an expert
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: who is genuinely committed to these two publicly important things,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: keeping unemployment low and also keeping inflation low.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: And that's a hard task.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: You also want somebody, you know, in a financial crisis,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: as we experience, to have the guts to do what's
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: needed in order to save the economy, whatever that might be,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: and to have the know how. So Ben Bernaki, for instance,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: had been a serious student of the Great Depression. It's
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: part of how he was able to navigate us through
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: that turmoil in the last very serious financial crisis.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: If you just have Trump navigating those through that, I
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: mean imagine that that you just have.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: A Tulsi Gabbard type who's pulling the levers as Trump wants.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: I think it might permanently destroy the American economy. And
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: that sounds like hyperbole, but it's really that important a position.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: It's why it's so insulated.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: And even the Supreme Court, I should say, we've talked
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: about how they are about to destroy most independent agencies.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: In this Federal Trade Commission case, they are going to
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: preserve fed independence because I think even they see how
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: dangerous it would be to have a president in control.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: But this president can, without any legal changes, subvert all
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: of it by finding a sycophant rather than an expert.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: And strong men always seek loyalists rather than independent officials
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: in institutions like central banks, especially if there's some compromist
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: on them and they have leverage and can be blackmailed
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: and controlled, which is the scariest part of all of this.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: And by all of this, I mean Donald Trump's entire
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: political career, Professor Bretschneier. When you look at these stories
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: we've covered here, detailed children, attempts to silence speech, weaponizing
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: law enforcement for lies, election interference, captured institutions. What ordinary
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Americans need to understand about this moment we're living through.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I always want to come back to why we're
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: doing this podcast, the urgency of it, and that's the
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: idea that our system is not nearly as stable as
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: you learned in civics class. I've tried to point this
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: out in a variety of ways, but all of the
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: institutions that we have that give us protection against a
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: criminal president are being eroded.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: He's succeeding.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: And you know when you have a national stormtroopers arresting
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: people based on their color, and that's what not just
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: I'm saying federal judge said it going after people from
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: Haiti again because of their non whiteness. Is that judge
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: put it in that case, it's the creation of stormtroopers,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: a national force to subvert civil liberties.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: It goes back to the.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: Undermining of all the things that from the thirteenth century
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: on habeas corpus, magna carta, that we fought for limiting
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: the power of tyrants and kings, and that's all in question. Now.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: That's why we're doing this podcast. That's what each of
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: these things that we've talked about has done. And yet
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: we've also talked about resistance. I'm so glad we had
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: that conversation about Bruce Springsteen, about Crosby, Steels, Nash and Young.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: You know, it shows that there is power to resist
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: and to win. And you know, if you were living
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: after Kent State, I guarantee you it felt frightening soon
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: after the hard hat riot at the order this was investigated.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: Looks like Nixon very well, he.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: Was possibly going to be prosecuted for this before the
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: pardon ordered an attack after kenn State on protesters in
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: City Hall in New York City where they were beaten
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: severely by construction workers. You know, the country looked frightening,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: was falling apart, and then that song emerges, a movement emerges.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: That's where I think we are starting to get that
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: the abuses are so profound, The abuses that are analogous
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: to those that we suffered and talked about in the
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: Declaration of Independence by a British king.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: Are that bad?
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: That we're starting to rise up to fight back, and
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: the song I really just want to emphasize how much
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: emotionally that helps me and listening to that song, listen
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: to it. We'll listen to the Billy Bragg song and
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: pushing in. So thanks for that, John.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, listen. And you know, there's films that get me
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: through it. I mean, like every ten years or so,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: I have to watch Born on the fourth of July.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: I have to watch Gandhi every ten years. Those two
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: movies kind of help sustain me and remind me of
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: the principles that we're fighting for. And Professor, outside of Springsteen,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: what's giving you hope?
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: I think that one of the things I argue in
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: the presidents and the people five leaders who threatened democracy
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: and the citizens who fought to defend it, is that
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: all the things that we talk about due process, free speech,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: habeas corpus, they're abstract until they're violated. When you see
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: a kid, a five year old, and that judge included
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: a picture of the child being abducted, you know, on
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: the way back from school, that tells you something morally
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: that is so profoundly wrong, that evil is occurring tyranny
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: is that that starts to re orient us towards our principles.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: And I think, beyond the song, that's what's happening. I mean,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: it's what prompted the song. It's what's prompting all of
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: us to stand up for our rights and to push
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: back against this tyranny.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: We will win.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: I am increasingly confident, as bad as it looks now,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: that we will win. In the long term. We will
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: have a truth commission to hold people to account. There
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: will be prosecutions of these ice officers that have so
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: badly violated people's rights. As our slogan now of the
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: show says, Trump has immunity, you don't, And I think
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: justice will prevail in the end. That's where my hope's
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: coming from. How about you, John, I'll ask me the
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: same question.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: Listen. I mean, you know what we will win looks
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: like to me. You know, this is an ongoing struggle.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: This is always the struggle of America, the struggle between
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: selfish white supremacy and selfish authoritarianism and selfish oligarchy. In
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: a country founded by wealthy white men who thought only
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: wealthy white men should be allowed to vote, and they
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: owned people and called themselves fighters for freedom, and the
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: last two hundred and fifty years has been a NonStop
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: struggle between a plural society based in justice and evil
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: rich white dudes thinking they should run everything and brainwashing
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: frightened white people to go along with policies that don't
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: hurt non millionaires. So I just view it as we're
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: in this period of time carrying the baton, and the
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: struggle was here before we were born, and the struggle
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: will go on after we're here. But I would like
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: to be part of a generation that makes fascists and
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: white supremacists terrified to show their faith for the next century.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: I'm all about a truth and reconciliation committee. I think
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Democrats need to start talking about a special council right now,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: an independent special council right now, just for the Epstein files,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: because we've got a thousand victims, but no criminals, no purpse,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: No one's being arrested for any of this except a
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: dead guy and a live lady who just got upgraded
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: to a cushy prison. So clearly this administration is part
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: of a cover up. There's no accountability. They're not going
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: to get on the right side of history. And I've
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: been saying this for a while, Professor. The Democrats who
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: run saying there's going to be hands on bibles in
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: January of twenty twenty seven, there's going to be members
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: of this cabinet having to give testimony on camera about
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: their crimes and about these policies. Those are the Democrats
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: who are going to win the almighty fundraising. And I
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: think the Democrats who start talking about an independent council
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: for Epstein right now will not only be doing good
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: for the Democratic Party in the overall causes, they'll be
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: the only ones who give a damn about the victims,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: many of whom did not have their names redacted, many
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: of whom have had their names go out there. The
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: child rapists have all been protected by Pambondi, but a
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: whole bunch of victims had their names not redacted in
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: this and are suffering more, greater humiliation and pain right now.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: So I want to I will support and donate to
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Democrats who start talking about independent counsel because this is
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: a wave. People are rightfully disgusted by this, and I
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: don't want to be part of a generation that brushes
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: this whole thing under the rug, like the Catholic Church
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: did for so many years.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a horrible moment.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: It calls for some independence, and even if we're not
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: going to get it tomorrow, talking long term, I just
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: add to that, the struggle is I love that way
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: putting it. If we're in the struggle, then we haven't lost.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: And cynicism, of course is what's the enemy of that
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: somehow thinking that we can give up or that it
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: can't be won. And the fact that there is a
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: crisis going on. I keep saying this, that there is
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: a struggle. That's a good sign. The success of the
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: coup would be the end of the struggle.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: So really well said, what a great episode. Thank you,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: John Corey.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you. I want to thank the
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: listeners for giving all this astronomical charting. Oh my god,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: how are we doing on the charts right now? Professor?
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: It's crazy, right, we have been just consistently top five,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: as high as top two, and I keep hearing from people.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: The people responded to Tom Jocelyn.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of listeners knew a lot of
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: what happened in January sixth some knew less, some knew more.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: But now you know a whole hell of a lot.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: And that's thanks to that guest, and we have pre
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: Porara next week.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: Come and listen to us for that. That's going to
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: be an amazing episode.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: And what a pleasure to do this with you, John,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: as we continue to fight for what's right.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: How do our listeners follow you and keep up with
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: your brilliance the other six days of the week, Professor.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: You can find me on blue Sky on Democracy. Prof
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: You could find our substack newsletter where we're detailing and
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: having links to the topics that we're talking about, certainly
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: well linked to the Bruce Springsteen and the Billy Bragg songs,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: so you could listen to it for next week. And
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: you can, you know, find us wherever you get your
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: podcasts Spotify, We're on YouTube and wherever you listen. If
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: you leave a review, I think I talked about the
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: five hundredth reviewer, will well pass us.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: You could be like five thirty.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: Or something at this stage and leave a review, tell
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: your friends and you know, share it with one person.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: That would be great.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: Brilliant, Professor, thank you so much. I want to thank
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: all of our listeners. You can hear me on Sirius
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: XM Progress channel one twenty seven, five nights a week.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: Also the John Fugelsang Podcast. My book is called Separation
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: of Church and Hate and I want to thank Wendy
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: and Beowolven, everyone who puts this monster together every week.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you all, and we will see you next time
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: on the Oath and the Office