Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Episode 165 - Surf the Celtic Wave
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- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr rad, Dr G 0:32 and I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr Rad 0:58 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr rad, Dr G 1:06 and I am your other host. Dr G, Dr Rad 1:10 now. Dr G, we are emerging from a very dark time in ancient Roman history. 392 BCE is not well known to the general public, but we discovered it was a year of a terrible pestilence where, if you got sick, you might very well catch an itch that could cause you to scratch your way through your flesh to your very bones, Dr G 1:34 horrifying, and the sort of thing that the Romans want you to forget, but we're going to remind you About every time Dr Rad 1:40 it happens, honestly, I keep getting the shivers every time I think Dr G 1:46 disgusting. It has been a troublesome time for the Romans recently, despite what appears to be the stellar victory of a Fe and the Aequians being easy to conquer, but seemingly coming back every year anyway, like some kind of, I don't know, zombie enemy. Dr Rad 2:08 I was gonna say, like a Jack in the Box, just Dr G 2:11 when you think they're gone, they're back, and we are now heading squarely for what appears to be a much bigger disaster. I would say that this year is a lead in to what is going to be an epic problem for Rome. I Dr Rad 2:25 would say so I think we're going to do an episode on 391 BC, which is this episode, and then it may take us, like five or six episodes to get through the next lot. Dr G 2:38 Strap yourselves and listeners, we're heading onto a bumpy road for the Romans. Yeah, Dr Rad 2:43 please, please be forewarned. 390 BCE will not be covered in a single episode. Dr G 2:49 It is unlikely, but even 391 I have to say, because it is a lead in to what is going to happen. Everybody is talking about it. And when I say everybody, I'm just going to give you my list of sources, not because I'm trying to show off, but because it's confusing in my head, and I gotta have them all written down. There's the Fasti Capitolini, no surprises there. I also have Valerius, Maximus, Plutarch's life of Camillus, Cicero's On the house, Pliny's Natural History, Appian's Italic wars, Dio Cassius, The illustrious men by the unknown author, Dionysius of Halicarnassus makes a reappearance, as does his epitomator, likewise, Eutropius, Diodorus Siculus is back with his ongoing series. Meanwhile, in Sicily, and this is way more sources than I usually have. Fortunately, most of them are saying very similar things. So I think that's going to be the crux of the issue. When we get into Dr Rad 3:54 it, I was going to say, you're making me feel extremely sheepish, because my list of sources is Livy Dr G 4:02 and I'm not sad about that. I think Livy is providing us with the consistent narrative that is anchoring all of our episodes at the moment. So I think you're doing a very valuable and important job in tackling Livy, because it's providing the groundwork for all of the sort of chaotic bits and pieces that I have little chips that I'm I throw into the bowl at the party and hope will one day make something great. Dr Rad 4:27 I'm not gonna lie, when people think Fiona Radford, they think consistency. Dr G 4:33 See, there you go. Dr Rad 4:35 Yeah. All right. So Dr, G, as you say, this will be a big one, because it's the lead up to one of the biggest disasters in early Roman history, if not perhaps the biggest disaster in early Roman history. So without further ado, let's try and leave plague behind if we can, because we've learned nothing from analytic history. It's that disease outbreaks only ever last. 12 months Exactly. They can't exceed that time period. It's impossible. Let's delve into 391, BCE, Oh. Dr G 5:20 Huh? 391 What a time, what a place Dr Rad 5:32 now. Dr, G, I would wager that the list of magistrates is going to take us a good 10 minutes. So let's get cracking. All right, Dr G 5:40 we have a return of the military tribunes with consular power. Dr Rad 5:45 Yes, yes, just reminding our listeners that apparently the reason for the switch from consuls back to military tribunes with consular power was because it's possible to have multiple military tribunes with consular power, as in more than two. And the theory is that if you have more than two less likely that they'll all get gravely ill and scratch themselves to death. Dr G 6:06 It does also mean, if you've got wars on many fronts, you're able to send a commander in every direction possible, which is exciting news. So we have six military tribunes with consular power, which is really reaching the upper threshold of what the Romans are capable of delivering. In this magistracy, we have Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus Flavus, hmm. Now, this guy was suffect consul in 393 so he was around a couple of years ago, and I did trip over his name, I think, in the previous episode when we talked about him. So I've really practiced Dr Rad 6:46 for this. He's asking for it with that many syllables, outrageous, Dr G 6:49 exactly, Latin. What are you trying to do to me? Exactly. He is joined by Servilius Sulpicius Camerinus, also suffect consul in 393, Dr Rad 7:02 gang back together. The gang's back together. Dr G 7:05 Yeah, they're like, we've served together before. It's gonna be fine. We've got a guy who we're not sure of, the praenoman. He could be a Lucius or he could be a Marcus, but he's definitely an Aelius Mamercinus. This is his first time in the role. Congratulations. Dr Rad 7:22 That won't be his last, from the looks of things Dr G 7:24 certainly won't, but this is where it all begins. We also have Lucius Furius Medullinus, whoa, the Furii are back in town, he was previously consul in 413, 409, and also, previously military Tribune, about seven times, wow. So he has a lot of experience under his belt. Who knows how many gray hairs He is joined by Agrippa Furius Fusus, so from the same gens, and this is the only time that this guy appears in the Fasti. No other role, no other time. It's a special year. A small round of applause for Agrippa Furius Fusus, Dr Rad 8:12 we don't often get the name Agrippa mixed in with the Furii clan. I feel Dr G 8:19 this is an odd situation. I don't think anybody is comfortable with it. Scholars have some questions, Dr Rad 8:25 yeah. See, the only thing we've learned about Roman names is that they have a certain pattern to them. You just start to get a feel for it after talking about them this many times. Dr G 8:34 That's true, and definitely different genses have different preferences when it comes to their praenomens. So you start to see patterns there. I think the reason why he appears might become more clear as we get further down the list. Sure the last military Tribune with consular power is Gaius Aemilius Mamercinus. And if you thought I said his name already, you're almost right, because two of those three names appeared earlier in the list. So this guy is definitely part of the Aemilii gens, and definitely the same branch of the family as the guy, Lucius or Marcus Aelius. They don't have the same father, they don't have the same grandfather, so they're slightly different branches of the family, but they're pretty closely connected. You would think Dr Rad 9:20 a lot of patrician domination. Dr G, and I'm not thrilled about it. Dr G 9:24 There is a lot of patricians in this list. All of them are patrician and Gaius Aemilius Mamercinus was also previously military Tribune in 394, okay, so he's got a little bit of experience. So the only newcomer here is Agrippa Furius Fusus. Now things get more complicated as we move away from the military tribune with consular power. And this was going to lead into, I think, some of the discussion we have about the source material, because we have a tribune of the plebs listed a guy called Lucius Apuleius. We also have a Quaestor listed, Spurius Carvilius. We have the interregges, who came up in the previous year. They're listed for this year as well, Marcus Furius Camillus, Publius Cornelius Scipio and Lucius Valerius Potitus. And then we get into our legates, slash ambassadors. Dr Rad 10:25 Oh, the troublemakers. I like to call them Dr, G Dr G 10:31 and well, listeners, if names are confusing for you, you're in the right spot, because we're these guys are clearly all related, and it appears that they must all be brothers from the names, the patterns of the names, we've got Quintus Fabius Ambustus. He is the son of Marcus, grandson of Quintus. You're like, okay, then we have Kaeso Fabius Ambustus, son of Marcus, grandson of Quintus. Then we have Numerus Fabius Ambustus, son of Marcus, grandson of Quintus. So these three all related, all Fabian fabulous all from fabulous Fabians, all from the Ambustii sub branch of the family. So I guess we'll see what happens there. Absolutely Dr Rad 11:27 it's going to be an interesting ride with these three Dr G if they really did what they are accused of. But I mustn't get ahead of myself. Are you ready to dive into 391? Dr G 11:41 Yes. Ma'am. All right. Dr Rad 11:43 So it was on a sunny summer's day in July, the first day of July, in fact, when our new military tribunes, with consular power, took over after that dreadful time of plague. Dr G now, lest we forget, the Romans had made a declaration of war from their sick beds, and now that they were feeling friskier, it's time to fulfill on that promise. Dr G 12:13 Yes, wow. We wouldn't want the gods to be disturbed, would we? Dr Rad 12:17 We most certainly would not, and so it's just as well we have so many military tribunes with consular power because they can be split up into pairs and sent off to conquer some people. We have Lucretius and Aemilius being placed in charge of the war with Volsinii, one of the fabled Etruscan 12 Cities much further north than the Romans usually venture, but they started it, and then we have Sulpicius and Furius being placed in charge of the war with the city that we're presuming is not that far away from the Volsinii. The Sappinates, I'm going to call them, they decide to deal with Volsinii first, as it is a bigger place, as you might imagine, given that we actually know where this place was once upon a time, but again, bit of a snooze as far as military campaigns go. Dr, G, I don't know what is going on with these enemies of Rome, but apparently, once the Romans launch their attack, the Volsinii, their line just breaks apart pretty much straight away. The Romans use their cavalry to cut them off, and the Volsinii, their cavalry, wave the little white flag and defeated pretty quickly. Dr G 13:38 Well, all I can say is that, from the way you've described them, they're far inside Etruscan territory. They've been living that soft Etrurian life, surrounded by their buddies, other friends. They haven't had to prep themselves for war. They haven't had to defend their city. And now, all of a sudden, these angry little Romans turn up and like Dr Rad 14:00 exactly giving them a taste of their own medicine after they dared to invade Roman territory whilst the Romans were scratching themselves to death, the smaller city that we don't really know where it was, the saponates, they saw how things worked out for the larger, presumably more prosperous neighbor city of Volsinii, and they decided, You know what, I don't think we want to fight the Romans Dr G 14:29 run away. So Dr Rad 14:31 they decide, much smarter to hide behind their city walls and just brace themselves for an attack. Shit Quick, get into the cupboard. Now, the Romans are on a high because presumably, you know how you feel after you've gotten over a serious illness. You know, they just, they just happy to be outside. Quite frankly, they're skipping happily around, lootering and plunging. Ring their way through the fields of both the Volsinii and Sappinum, or whatever this place is called. Finally, the people of Volsinii get sick of this and say, You know what, whatever we took from you in the previous year, we'll give it all back. If you could just stop. All right, you already won the battle. Please, for the love of God, would you just put an end to this once and for all Dr G 15:28 you see this sheaf of wheat, have it back. Hang Dr Rad 15:32 on a second. I can give it back to you. I swear. Just give me one second, which actually, I think, gives credence to our theory that a lot of the warfare that is going on in this time period is really just people constantly swapping sandals. Seems like it. They also say that not only will they give back anything that they took in the previous year, they will provide the salaries of the soldiers that the Romans used in this little campaign, because, after all, we are working under the pretense that there is such a thing as military pay at this moment in time. Roman sorts, that sounds like a good deal. Cha Ching and they agree to a 20 year truce, wow. Etruscan rascals, Dr G 16:19 okay. Well, I mean, how did the Volsinii know that Romans are paying their troops? How do they know? Dr Rad 16:27 Presumably, whilst they were plundering the Roman fields, they got wind of this amazing innovation of the Romans. Hmm, I'm suspicious. I am grasping at straws here trying to make this Dr G 16:41 Livy, what are you trying to do to us? He really wants to embed this idea in his narrative. I could see where he's going. Very clever, Livy. Dr Rad 16:49 It's not that it's impossible that there's something being provided to the soldiers of Rome, but as you and I have talked about, there are just so many problems with the way that it is presented to us. And look, this isn't the first time this has happened after all, remember the whole filiscan affair. They also agreed to pay the soldiers, apparently, after Camillus won them over with his sense of honor. It Dr G 17:13 does seem to be one of the innovations that has emerged in maybe the last 20 years of Roman history, which is that people are like, what if we just pay you to go away and stop fighting us and people like you know what? I agree, Dr Rad 17:27 yes, and it's something that will have a long history in many places, not just Rome now. Dr G, this is where your knowledge of Roman religion is going to be counted upon, because back in Rome itself, a portent appears by the name of Marcus Caedicius. What an unfortunate name. He went and told some of the military tribunes with consular power that when he was in the Nova Via or the Nova Via for those that like the sound of a V in the dead of night, he heard a voice. Now, presumably, this voice was very clearly divine, because he said it was even more distinct than a man's. I'm imagining booming. I'm imagining stereo surround sound. And it told him that he needed to inform the magistrates of Rome that the Gauls were coming. Dun, dun, dun. Dr G 18:31 Oh no, the Gauls. How would they even who are the Gauls? I'm Dr Rad 18:37 not going to get into that right this second, but in Livy's time, there was apparently a small chapel of some kind where this portent took place, presumably to mark the occasion, and it was located just above the Temple of Vesta. Very interesting, I thought that might get your attention. Look, I have a couple Dr G 19:02 of Vesta things to mention in this episode, but that's not one of them that's really interesting. I do have this story as well, related by Plutarch in his Life of Camillus. And again, the guy's name is the same, Marcus Caedicius, and he hears this voice, and he doesn't see the person, but it seems louder than a man's. Dr Rad 19:28 It's not a person, it's a god. I made it very clear. Dr G 19:35 Tell the magistrates that they must expect the goals. He goes to the tribunes, apparently, and tells them, and they laugh at him. Dr Rad 19:43 No, that's exactly what Livy says, things that the magistrates couldn't have cared less, and, oh, so shameful. Dr, G, but it's all because of his social class. They're like, You disgusting, stinky pleb. We're not going to pay attention to anything you say laughable. And then. Point out that the gulls are so far away the reference barely know anything about them. Ridiculous. Couldn't possibly be a concern. Evil laughter, twirling of mustache, stroking of white cats, Dr G 20:15 yeah, like we're not going to be worried about the chicken people. They live over the Alps. As far as we're aware, it's like a completely different continent, Dr Rad 20:24 yeah. So they're very unconcerned, but this was obviously something that was marked later. This is apparently the only time when a voice like this was really heard before something disastrous happened for the Romans. So that's kind of interesting, I Dr G 20:40 thought, as an omen, yeah, that's important. Yeah, I don't Dr Rad 20:45 know. I don't know if it's the only time in Rome's history where they heard big, booming surround sound, James Earl Jones, Morgan Freeman style voices talking to them. But certainly, as a warning, you know that something was coming. And so they did, apparently, mark out this site, and it was something set up to the cult of Aius Loquens or Locutius. But I don't believe that the exact site of this altar has been 100% nailed down. Okay, it is thought that this character of the lowly plebeian who gets laughed at is a later addition. I know you'll be shocked to hear that, Dr G 21:29 but in a way, it kind of makes sense. It was like, if we emphasize that this is a portent that is ignored by the Roman the powerful sections of Roman society, then you might then suggest that, well, the gods have realized that putting a message forward through the ears of a plebeian is worth nobody's time, because the Romans don't get the message because they just laugh at the guy instead, Dr Rad 21:54 I know, and I love the fact that they set up This little thing to what seems to be a native God, which is the God of the speaking voice, basically. Dr G 22:11 Well, I think that's cool. I mean, the Romans do like things like that. They're like, we're not sure to who to attribute this to, yeah. And thus, it must be a new god that we're not aware of. Dr Rad 22:21 Yeah. Now look, Dr G, this is just the first of many times that we start to see why the Romans are about to face a terrible year in 390 BCE. And the overarching thing that unites all of these little incidents is that the Romans are brought down by their own arrogance. I mean, who could have seen that coming? I think, I think you and I have spent a long time focusing on this very quality of the room. Dr G 22:49 Look, I'd like to say I'm shocked, but I can't even summon up shock. Dr Rad 22:56 Yeah, now I tell you what you are going to be shocked by, and that is the brevity of the next part of my account. The magistrates obviously have foolishly decided that they're going to ignore what is very obviously a message from the gods. And then, to make it even worse, in Livy's vision of things, not only do they turn against divine aid, they turn against the only human in Rome who could possibly have helped them in their time of need. That's right. I'm talking about Marcus, Furius Dr G 23:31 Camillus. Oh, Camillus, that guy, yeah, the old Golden Bowl Stuff up, man. Oh, Dr Rad 23:41 yeah, that's right. Camillus is going through a tough time in 391 BCE, Dr g1, of his young sons had suddenly and unexpectedly died, perhaps scratched himself to death. Dr G 23:54 It's quite possible. Yeah, we certainly don't, well, at least my sources don't provide the exact detail of what led to the death of the child, but given that we're in a situation contextually, which is like high levels of pestilence and disease, seems likely that the young and vulnerable would possibly be targeted and die. Dr Rad 24:13 Look, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say most likely plague. So Camillus is licking his wounds, dealing with his grief. It's not a great year for him. Unfortunately, it's exactly this moment that his enemies decide they're going to pounce. Camillus is a hero to the Romans, but as we have seen, it's not been all smooth sailing, and he's certainly ruffled some feathers along the way, mostly plebeian feathers. Dr G now he seriously annoyed the plebeians because he was firmly against the idea of splitting Rome in two and sending half of the population to they. That didn't go down well, because a lot of the plebs were in favor of that. Particularly some of the tribunes of the plebs, they were definitely down for that. And he also did not win any friends with that whole Oh, hey, I forgot to tell you about this crazy promise that I made after you all got your cut of the spoils of a turns out, I'm gonna need some of that back. Whoops. Whatever went on with that whole thing. Camillus Glory has been somewhat tainted in the eyes of some of his fellow Romans. So this is where the tribune of the plebs enters the story Lucius apollous. He indicts Camillus over the way he handled the spoils of Veii. Now Livy really does not give me many details, and this is the shocking part. This is going to be all about the trial of Camillus and how at least his exile, and Livy handles it in just a couple of sentences. Oh, boy. I know you would think this would be a huge set piece in Livy's account, but I mentioned this to you before. He's trying to build up a bigger picture here. He wants symmetry in what he's dealing with here, and in order to achieve that symmetry, he just doesn't have the time or the inclination to talk much about this episode, so I don't get much detail. But what seems to be clear by piecing together multiple sources is that Camillus is essentially being accused, perhaps of it might have been something like maybe he didn't pay his fair share of the tithe, maybe. But it seems far more likely that he's being accused of something akin to sort of embezzling, like mishandling some of the booty, something along those lines, and the evidence it's right there in plain sight. Dr G, two huge bronze doors freshly installed on his house the brazenness of this man. Now you might say, Well, surely the whole idea of taking stuff from vase that you can put it to some use. If you stole two huge bronze knockers, why not have them front and Dr G 27:06 center? Well, exactly, Dr Rad 27:09 but look, this is to maybe be some of the evidence that they're pointing to. And so Camillus calls together his consillium, so group of friends that he trusts and family members and wants to hear their take on what is going on, because obviously he is going to have to go through a trial. He's not really in the mood, the mindset, and he wants their advice. He doesn't perhaps hear what he was expecting to for a man with such a career behind him, because particularly, some of his clients who are plebeians say, Look, man, you're going down. It doesn't matter whether you're guilty or not guilty, you are going down. We can't really say that we're actually going to be voting to acquit you, because that would be career suicide. All we can say is that you'll probably get a slap on the wrist and a fine, and we'll help you to pay the fine, but we're still going to vote you guilty. It's going down, and Camillus decides that he should therefore just go into exile before the trial could take place. But before he leaves, he makes a very important vow to the gods. Again, he hasn't learned his lesson at all. Dr G, he just keeps talking to them. No. He says to the gods, please, if you know that I am truly innocent, then make sure that my fellow Romans will regret bitterly that they have driven me away and that they will want me to come home soon. And with that, he's off into the sunset, and in his absence, he is found guilty and fined 15,000 asses whilst he's in exile. Dr G 29:00 Goodness me, Camillus. He's a controversial character in some respects, I think, because he does demonstrate military prowess all the time, and yet his relationship with the people of Rome is tumultuous, and it's positioned this way in all of our source material and this story about how Camillus gets into exile crops up in just about anybody. Who's anybody. This is why I have such a long list of sources. They're all giving a certain version of this tale. Yes, so Valerius Maximus positions this story in a section which he is entitled On in gratitude. Dr Rad 29:42 Delightful. Subtle hint, Dr G 29:45 no, no, just, uh, there's an agenda here, just letting you know. And in this account, Camillus is accused by Apollo's, the tribune of the plebs, of embezzling spoils and. Not just that, but there isn't a complaint made that there are 15,000 asses missing from the state treasury. Dr Rad 30:10 Ooh, extra detail, Dr G 30:15 the detail about him having lost a son, is here in this particular version, this idea that Rome and Camillus are laden with calamities right now, and that he's condemned and sent into exile, that's the substance of Valerius Maximus. But this idea is not he doesn't mention anything about these fancy bronze doors. He talks about embezzlement specifically, and that there's missing funds from the Treasury, and Camillus is found to be wanting in this Dr Rad 30:44 particular case, and this is why the quaestors are involved. It may Dr G 30:49 be possible there are different versions of this story, and in some cases, it's the Quaestor that brings the accusation. So then we get into Plutarch's Life of Camillus. Obviously, Plutarch sees Camillus as heroic enough to deserve a life in the parallel lives. So he's seen, in some ways, as a moral exemplar. So that's important. So a lot of the framing of the things that go badly for Camillus are going to be lessons about how to do things better. He gets denounced to the citizens as a hater of the common people, sounds very much like a tribune of the plebs move and begrudging to the poor and the enjoyment of their rightful booty. So they have that situation in the background of this accusation being brought by apalaisus. Again, the charge is theft of Etruscan goods, and here the bronze doors do make a reappearance. The bronze doors belonging to the booty had been seen at his house, not necessarily the front doors, but maybe he was keeping them inside. Look, Dr Rad 31:52 I may have got caught up in my description. Dr G 31:57 You see those doors over there? I'm going to do some improvements later. And he does get together with his friends to discuss the case, and they say we're not going to be able to help you with this. So everybody seems to be convinced that he's going down. Whether he's actually guilty or not. Is another matter entirely. Hey, if the bronze doors fit, yeah. And they're like, we got the bronze doors in your house, man, what are you going to do? They say, though, that if he is punished with a fine, they'd help pay it. And that seems like a pretty generous offer, but it's the sort of thing that makes Camillus really mad, because that means that people don't believe him enough to defend him against these charges. They're just willing to help him out with the inevitable fine. Dr Rad 32:40 He's got bronze doors in his house. He doesn't need help with a fine. He needs faithful friends Dr G 32:45 Exactly. He's like, Well, that's not good enough. And it's like, that's not loyalty. You're not on my side. You're just gonna help me out when I get the fine, what does that say about you? You don't believe my side of the story. I found the bronze doors. They were on the side of the road. It Dr Rad 33:02 was a council cleanup. I swear Dr G 33:05 I got them off the back of the truck. What are you talking about? Dr Rad 33:07 Facebook, marketplace. I mean, everything's Dr G 33:09 just too cheap on there. Exactly what was I supposed to do? It was a bargain. So he can't endure this, and he's determined to just depart the city and willfully goes into exile. So there's some stories say that he gets charged and he has to go into exile. Others suggest that he leaves before this trial takes place. So he's preemptively engaging with the whole situation. And Plutarch also gives us this detail about the prayer to the gods. I'm just like Camillus, my buddy. Dr Rad 33:42 I know. Stop it. Just stop talking to them. Talk to somebody else. Talk to your stuffed teddy bear. How Dr G 33:47 did this work out for you last time? Man, not well, not well. You got into trouble with Apollo. You had to do the whole gold bold debacle. You sent a ship around Italy. It didn't go well. There were pirates, and you're telling me you're going to pray to the gods again, all right, like get a wife. Well, I figure you must have one children, but you know, the guy can't take a hint. So it's like he might be a great military general. But is he clever? No, he is not. He prays to the gods that, if with no justice, but through the wantonness of the people and the abuse of the envious. He was now being driven from his country, the Romans might speedily repent and show to all men that they needed and longed for. Camillus Dr Rad 34:34 got the ego on this guy. You're Dr G 34:36 gonna want me. You're gonna need me. You're gonna ask me back. Dr Rad 34:42 What you to want me Dr G 34:46 exactly. And then, to top it all off, Plutarch then begins the next paragraph with after he had, thus, like Achilles, invoked curses upon his fellow citizens, he removed himself from the city. Dr Rad 34:59 That's quite an accusation, because Achilles is a very emotional, messed up guy who really screws up everybody's plans with his mopiness. Dr G 35:14 You can see where it might be going. But look, I also Dr Rad 35:17 see this as a convenient, excellent stage left, because what all of this means is that Camillus is conveniently not around when disaster strikes. Now you might say, well, actually, Dr Rad, that seems inconvenient. No, he is a hero, and it's convenient that he is not around when the disaster first strikes, and then he might just get to, oh, I don't know, swoop in and save the day. We'll have to see. Dr G 35:46 Well, yes, exactly. So this is the kind of thing where Cicero's positioning of this situation is a handy way to get a lens on how Romans might be thinking about this kind of thing, because he brings up some great characters in the same breath, Kaeso Quinctius, Marcus Furius Camillus and Marcus Servilius Ahala. And we've had Ahala come across our table before. Oh, and Kaeso, yeah, guys who go out of their way to do things which are exceptional outside of the bounds of the expected, but ultimately benefit the Roman people. But the Roman people can't see it for what it is and get annoyed at them. So it's like the Roman population is condemning the means by which great men achieve great things and punish them for not doing it in the proper way when greatness required moving outside of the rule set. And this is kind of the way that Cicero sees it, because obviously he's talking about himself in a classic Ciceronian fashion. Dr Rad 36:55 Camillus Cicero exactly the same, because Dr G 36:59 he ultimately is bringing up Camillus to talk about the way that he had to leave Rome without any sentence being placed upon him. He had to go into a voluntary exile to be restored honorably later on, because people realized that he would done the right thing. And this is obviously a reference back to everything to do with the whole conspiracy that Cicero was a part of bringing down in his view. So Camillus is one of these figures that gets positioned as a hero out of the patrician tradition. Dr Rad 37:36 Absolutely yes, and there's a lot of details around this account which are questioned in modern times, the fine, the size of the fine, whether there was indeed a trial of this nature. It's all a bit questionable. However, it does seem likely that maybe Camillus wasn't in Rome after a certain point in 391 BCE, or thereabouts, because, as we've talked about, Roman dating is a little skewff, Dr G 38:03 well, it's also the situation where, depending on the sort of angle that you take with the scholarship, there is the argument that Camillus is not a real figure. This is true. A lot of this story is completely made up. Dr Rad 38:17 I wasn't gonna go down that path after G Dr G 38:19 today, or that there is an amalgamation of a variety of people into this singular story. To give it more potency, Dr Rad 38:28 absolutely, many Furii, many, many. What do you get when you combine many Furii? I Dr G 38:35 So, as an additional detail, so we've got the idea of Spurius Carvilius. This quaestor comes up. Yeah. Now this is a very late source, so it can probably be dismissed as not quite as on the money as maybe some of the other stories. But Pliny the Elder in his Natural History talks about Carvilius, the quaestor, bringing the charges against Camillus, the accusation being about the doors in his house. But while I was reading that small paragraph, because this whole book, 34 of the natural history, is about metals, Dr Rad 39:11 oh, I was gonna say it's about doors, I was trying to think what the theme could be. It's about metals. Of course, it's Dr G 39:16 about and a mere two sentences above that completely irrelevant to what we're talking about, but I'm going to mention it anyway, because it involves the Temple of Vesta. Ah, so one of the things that said is that the Temple of Vesta should be covered with a coating of Syracusan metal. Dr Rad 39:34 What does that mean? I don't know what that means. Don't know what Dr G 39:37 that means. I'm not sure what metals do the Syracuse Dr Rad 39:41 have? I wouldn't know where to even start, and where did this Dr G 39:45 ordinance come from, and when was it applied. And does that mean that the temple was shiny on the outside? Because that's incredible. I'm living for that dream. Let us reconstruct the temple with a shiny exterior that bore. Finds people in the summertime. Dr Rad 40:03 In the summertime. Ah, my eyes. All right, awesome. Okay, are we ready to advance with our tail? Dr G 40:11 Are we ready to advance with our tale? I mean, that is a great question. I mean, I don't think I have too many more things from this year. It's more variations on the same detail. So if you've got other things on this year is probably a good time to move to them, because I'm willing to learn. Dr Rad 40:25 Okay, well, let's throw ourselves back into the histrionic way that Livy is positioning Camillus departure. Camillus is gone, and he was the only man who could have possibly prevented the capture of Rome, which is going to happen in 390 BCE, that's right. Another spoiler. It's really hard to tell the story of the preceding years without constantly giving away what's going to happen in 390 BCE, yet more signs that trouble is a brewing, envoys arrive from Clusium. Ah, yes, Clusium, that's right. Clusium is in the Etrurian regions of Italy, and they are wanting help because they have encountered the Gauls, Dr G Dr G 41:14 horrifying. What are the Gauls doing in Etruria? Okay, well, Dr Rad 41:18 this is where I'm going to tell you a little bit about the Gauls. It's actually occurred to me that this would be a good special episode for us. Episode for us, actually, because I do not know that much about the Gauls, apart from the fact that they are going to be running afoul of the Romans For hundreds of years, and it's not going to end well for them, although they do put up a amazingly good fight against the Dr G 41:42 Romans. The girls, Dr Rad 41:43 this is a very generic term. Sometimes you will also see reference to the Celts, as well as a particular brand of these people. To be honest, we wish we knew more about who these people that lived over the Alps really were. So as we can tell, they were a more loosely organized peoples than the Romans, but they are widely spread out, so that is really no shock. I mean, again, if you look at the amount of territory Rome actually occupies at this moment in time, teeny tiny compared to the areas that these people are going to conquer and take over, but tribes do seem to be the way that they mostly organize themselves. Most of what we know about them at this moment in time comes from the people that they are fighting against, and this is part of our problem. We are constantly going to be battling the racism that tinges Greek and Roman accounts of what these people are up to, how their society is organized, all of that kind of stuff. But what does seem to make sense is that there is some contact between them and other peoples through trade that seems legitimate, and that the dominant peoples in a Celtic slash Gallic society would be a warrior elite. Hmm, Dr G 43:09 you know, I have some details about why the Gauls are in Italy. If you, if you're interested, Dr Rad 43:14 by all means, please. So Dr G 43:17 Dionysus of Halicarnassus re enters the narrative. Nice to see you. Dionysius, I'm glad to be here. So it all starts, apparently, and I'm pretty sure this is a tall tale, but I like it, so I'm going to retell it anyway, so you can laugh along with me. Lucumo is a prince of the Etruscans. Dr Rad 43:38 Ah, yes, I know this story, but please continue. Dr G 43:42 He has a loyal man called Arruns who is acting as a guardian for his son. And Arruns looks after Lucumo's son, even when Lucumo passes away, raises this child to power. You would think the child would be grateful. The child is not grateful. The child is a little Dr Rad 44:02 power player. The theme is ingratitude. Dr G, the theme is ingratitude. Dr G 44:06 It certainly is. And as this kid grows up, he clamps eyes on Arrun's young, beautiful wife, and decides he wants her for his own. Arruns is pretty unhappy with that situation. And not only does he believe that his wife has been corrupted, but he has seen this young man talking to his wife in public, which means she is definitely not chased anymore. It is impossible, if you've had a public conversation with a man, you must have also slept with him. That's the only Dr Rad 44:41 explanation. That's what I tell my stepdaughter. Dr G 44:45 Never talk to a man in public unless you've already slept with him. Everybody will assume that you have. So I mean the Romans and their ideas, and also the Etruscans and their ideas. Yeah. So anyway, Arruns gets his dander up about this, and. And he's deciding that he's gonna leave Etruria, it's gonna pack up his wagon and he's gonna go. So he takes everything that is needful for an important and long trip. He packs Lots of wine, lots of olive oil and many baskets of figs, and packs it all up in his wagons, and he heads out of Italy all the way to Gaul and that is where he met the Gaulish people. And, you know, they're, they're kind of like, what's in those wagons, buddy? And he's like, Oh, sit down. Hear my sorry tale. Have a beverage. Have some figs, have some wine. Brought the popcorn. girl and The Gaulish people are flabbergasted. Their taste buds are exploding in this moment. They cannot believe it. They've been flavoring their food with rancid lard Dr Rad 45:55 all this time, and now they're tasting the rainbow, Dr G 45:58 and now they're like, olive oil. They've also been drinking bitter barley fermented beer, like the low of the low, and now they're tasting this delicious Italian wine. And they're like, oh my god, it's it's incredible. I just don't even know what to do with myself. And this fresh fruit, these figs, they're amazing. They're like, where did you get this stuff? And Arruns is like, well, I have great news for you. It's from Etruria. It's actually not that far away, really. Yeah, we're pretty close. And I can tell you that these people don't know how to defend themselves for shit. They are. They are lazy, sitting around making wine, kind of people, and you could just walk right in there and take your share. And you know what the Gauls say we're Dr Rad 46:48 in? Yeah, absolutely. Although it seems a bit harsh to the horse here, trust guns, they seem pretty dominant for quite some time. Dr G 46:54 Arruns doesn't think so, and his heart has been broken, so he does not care. Is he telling the whole truth to the Gaulish people? Maybe not. Is he worried about the outcome? Probably not. But we do have our first example in all of recorded history of the French now being jealous of the Italians and wanting what the Italians have for themselves. And this is going to set up a narrative that will last 1000s and 1000s of Dr Rad 47:23 years. Wow. Well, Livy actually does mention that story as well. However, he does cast a little bit of doubt on it by saying, Look, I'm not gonna contradict the story, which to me, kind of indicates that he's thought about it and thought Is this realistic? I don't know. He says that it's generally agreed. And I'm quoting my translation there that the Gauls who attack clusium were not the first Gauls to cross over the Alps. And I'm kind of like, well, duh, Livy, because there's a lot of questions in this story. First of all, Clusium. Clusium, of all places. Dr G, it would seem that perhaps this particular location might have been decided upon, because later on, the Romans and Clusium, they'll have some affairs. But right now, it's quite far away. Does it make sense as a place for the Gauls to be attacking? We can't be certain. There is certainly zero archeological evidence to support contact between the Gauls and Clusium, of all places, Dr G 48:37 and also the idea that the Romans have an alliance with Clusium, which is one of the other pieces of information that's bandied about. And it's like the Romans haven't ventured this far north. They would have had to skip over a whole bunch of Etruscan places in order to get to Clusium. To be like, let's be friends, and for the Clusians to agree and be like, Sure, Dr Rad 48:56 exactly yes. Not a lot of this makes sense. You Latins Dr G 48:59 from a little backwater. Why not? What we can Dr Rad 49:02 say is that gold slash Celts, whatever you want to call them Celts, even they probably were migrating because they were after the usual stuff, land, well, and stuff, really. And by stuff, I mean, sandals, really, resources, animals, fruits, wine, whatever is going and it could be because they need more space. Maybe they've had a bit of a population boom. Perhaps, we're not really sure, but there are waves, it would seem, of tribes, sort of coming over, and gradually they're setting themselves up in the sort of northeast of Italy, sort of Po Valley area. And this would be something that would be interesting to Livy, because, lest we forget, he is from Padua, which is in Cisalpine Gaul. Yes, exactly. Look at him go. And this is one of my funnest little things true. Remember about Latin because we know I don't understand Latin, but CIS Alpine Gaul literally means Gaul this side of the Alps, as opposed to trans Alpine Gaul, Gaul that side. Dr G 50:12 Yes. Never listen to people who tell you that cis and trans have not been in use for 1000s of years, because they have Dr Rad 50:18 Yes exactly. Yes, exactly. So we do have these waves of migration happening. And as you can imagine, that does lead to conflict between the people that are there and some of the people that are there are Etruscans. We do have some archeological evidence showing the conflict between Etruscans and Celts there are apparently, and I'm quoting my source here, which is Gary Forsythe's book, horseshoe shaped sandstone tombstones from the Etruscan community of Felsina, dating to the early fourth century BCE, where you may See a noble Etruscan warrior on horseback doing battle with a nude Celtic dude on foot. Well, there you go. So this is going, we're going to see increasing influence. And I actually did not know this. I can't believe I didn't know this. But a lot of the police names in this part of Italy actually come from the Celtic tribes and whatnot that set themselves up here, like bologna. I did not know that. I should have known that, but I didn't. Dr G 51:28 Oh, look, yep, the north of Italy. It is different from other spots of Italy. Yeah, there's different influences going on Dr Rad 51:36 now, as you might imagine, here in lies our difficulty, right? Because we have almost nothing from the Etruscans in terms of their writing. Most of what we have that sort of tells their history is, in fact, archeological their writing doesn't really tell, like narrative histories, and it's very, very limited, and so we don't get much. And then, of course, the other people, they're going to come into contact with the Greeks and the Romans, as I mentioned before, and they don't necessarily have the understanding necessary, particularly at this early time, to understand all the subtle nuances between these different Celtic groups of people and tribes that they might be encountering. They do get to know some of the names of these different groups and that sort of thing. But as for giving us, you know, a nuanced portrayal of who these people are, I'm afraid we just don't have it. Dr, G, oh, sorry. I know, I know we might be wondering, because Livy actually does something interesting here. He actually gives quite a lot of detail, though, about the history of the contact and where these people are coming from. And I have to say it's unlike anything I have read in Livy so far. It actually does remind you a lot of the kind of stuff that Herodotus does, and that might be what he's imitating here. Dr G 52:47 Interesting. He's getting into a bit of an ethnography. Is he Dr Rad 52:51 a little bit? Yeah, he goes on this little disc like he doesn't often do that, like he might go into a bit of a backstory, but as you know, Livy's not always one for detail. He sometimes skims through things very quickly. He talks about the fact that, from his point of view, of view, from his sources, what other sources? Not really sure. We think they might be Greek, not really convinced. Apparently, there are a couple of potentials, like maybe some of our is writing and a person called Timagenes, but we're not really sure. Seemingly, he actually was probably using more Greek sources than vara. But anyway, he says that 200 years passed between the initial crossing of the Gauls into, you know, the north of Italy, and their attack on Clusium, which is happening right now in this very year, and that the people from Clusium, the Clusinii, which sounds a bit like fangirls of George Clooney, were not the first Etruscans who had had to fight the Gauls, that there had been lots of conflict going on between the people of this region. And this is where we get some of the classic racist style remarks, I suppose, from Livy. He talks about certain tribes having, you know, incredible savagery. And we're going to see constant references to the the temper of these particular people. What we think is actually happening is that these groups that are migrating into Italy probably coming via Switzerland and maybe South Germany, and not actually possibly Gaul itself. Now, one of the stories that Livy relates is that during the reign of Tarquinius Priscus, the Celts, one of three divisions of the Gaulish people, were being ruled by another tribe. And I'm going to butcher this pronunciation, I apologize, the Bituriges, the Bituriges, Bituriges are the better. Yeah, the Bituriges, the Bituriges, perhaps the Bituriges. And it's from this tribe that a king was given to the Celts. This man's name was Ambigatus, Ambigatus, very ambiguous of him. I know, I know he was. A man of considerable talent, but also had a lot of good luck, which meant that he became quite a distinguished leader, and the Gauls became extremely prosperous under his rule. They had just so much corn and so many babies being born. I mean, they were Scrooge McDucking themselves all over the place. They were just diving into their pits of money. Dr G 55:26 It's a tough life, but someone's gotta live it. Dr Rad 55:29 As Ambigutas becomes old, he didn't want to see his kingdom remain so large, because that would be crazy. It's too much prosperity. Gotta dish it out a little bit. So instead, he decided to send his nephews via his sister, Bellovesus and Segovesus. They're the names I'm going for. I apologize for my pronunciation on a quest to find new homes which could be given to them by the gods and oh boy. Oh boy. Dr G, these nephews were up for the task. Now, the king assures his nephews that they're going to be taking a large number of followers with them, so that no one's going to be able to stand in their way. Now, this sounds kind of crazy. On what planet have you ever heard of someone being like, we're just too prosperous. We're going to share this prosperity around in this manner. It sounds Dr G 56:24 like somebody having some difficulties with some nephews and being like, you know what? I'm going to arm them up and send them in opposite directions, and then they're going to leave me alone, Dr Rad 56:33 possibly, or it's just a really weird explanation for the fact that, actually they need more land, they need more territory, and they need to conquer it. So they're given various areas where they're going to like, this is divvied up by lot like where they're going to go. And it is Segovesus, who is assigned the Hercynian Highlands, which is the upland districts of South Germany, including places now known as like the Black Forest, Bohemia and so on, and Bellovesus, he is directed by the gods straight into Italy. Now he is leading extra members from the tribes, the Bituriges, the Arverni, the Senones, the Haidui, the Ambarri, the Carnutes and the Aulerci. I'm sure I just mispronounced a whole lot of Celtic names there. And they have a mixture of infantry and cavalry with them. And they, of course, then have to come across the difficulty of how they're going to get across the Alps, Dr G 57:42 I'd recommend elephants Dr Rad 57:46 the little bit before that time, and I don't think they've packed any elephants, unfortunately, so they have some difficulties. They're a bit hesitant. They're kind of intimidated by the sight of the Alps. And I do understand where they're coming from. The Alps are pretty big, so it's superstition that apparently makes them pause at this point in time the exact details of their crossing. I'm not even going to go into it, because, again, it seems like Livy probably has got it wrong in terms of what was possible, etc, etc, at this point in time. But once we have these guys across the Alps, because they do indeed make it across. They are soon followed by other goals, who start setting themselves up in various places in the north of Italy. So it's a waterfall. Dr, G, it's just being unleashed. Dr G 58:32 Yeah, they found a path, and then they told everybody about it, and now everybody's on the other side of the mountains. Dr Rad 58:39 Yep, exactly. We're told that it's the Senones who seem to be the last to migrate, and the reason why I'm mentioning them is that Livy thinks it's people from this tribe that went to Clusium and then eventually will go on to Rome. Spoilers. Again, you Dr Rad 59:20 so the men of Clusium rock up to Rome because they're completely freaked out by this attack by the presumably Senones group of the Celts slash Gauls. And it's not just because it's an attack, it's also because they're really strange people with crazy weapons that the people of colus have apparently never seen, even though they're kind of in this area of Italy and the goals have been there for a while. I think so I question this Dr G, but let's just move on with our narrative. You Dr G 59:53 say move on, but I'm not sure that I can. What kind of weapons do these people have that they've never seen before? Dr Rad 59:59 Oh, they just seem strange. I mean, I think we can definitely question Livy's narrative here, because if the Gauls have been migrating for like, the last 100 years or so, would there be weapons that the people of clusium Haven't seen? Are the Celtic weapons even that different from the kinds of weapons that the Romans would use. These are all legitimate questions. Dr G, I've never Dr G 1:00:23 seen that handle before. Barbarians. Dr Rad 1:00:27 You call that a knife. Why? Exactly, yeah. So there's much talk about the disruption that is happening in this part of Italy at this point in time. And you might be wondering. Dr G, why on earth would the people of clusium turn to Rome of all people for help in their time of need? Because there is no alliance between any people in Etruria and the Romans at this moment in time. About the only thing that the men of clusium have to recommend themselves is the fact that they did not side with they during Rome's recent war with they. Dr G 1:01:07 Look that doesn't score them big points, surely. Well, Dr Rad 1:01:11 nobody did. Nobody did. That was kind of the point, wasn't it? But anyway, now they're seeking help from the Roman Senate. Roman Senate don't want to rush into anything here, for exactly that reason. There is no formal Alliance here. They don't really see why they should be helping the people of Clusium, per se, Clusium is very far to the north, after all, however, they do agree to offer a limited kind of assistance, and this is where our ambassadors come in. Dr G the three sons of Marcus Fabius Ambustus, are dispatched as ambassadors to Gaul and tell them off Officially Dr G 1:01:54 in the name of Rome. Oh, yes. Well, there's nothing like an official Roman telling off is there. And who better than the fabulous Fabii. Dr Rad 1:02:01 precisely they're going to dazzle the Celts with their fabulousness. So when they arrive, they say, How dare you pick on friends of Rome, particularly this group of people in Clusium who have done nothing to provoke you. Celtish people, the Romans do not want war. Dr G, this is what they tell the senes. Well, Dr G 1:02:26 that's a change of offense, isn't it? Somebody should interrogate this more closely. I think Dr Rad 1:02:31 it's more they don't want war with this particular group of people because they don't even know who they are. Dr G 1:02:37 Yes, it's always better to go to war with your friends, people that you know Dr Rad 1:02:41 precisely. They say, look, you're strangers to us. We don't know much about you. We would rather be on friendly terms with you, Gauls slash Celts slash Senones. And even though the response to this would kind of make sense sitting in 391 I would like to leave it on a bit of a cliffhanger there. Dr, G, but yes, this is, this is what we've got. We've got Romans talking to the Celts at this moment on behalf of their kind of friends, not friends, frenemies from Clusium. And I'm going to get into exactly how this exchange plays out. I think next time? Dr G 1:03:20 Oh, oh, well, I look forward to finding out what happens next. Dr Rad 1:03:26 One thing I can say is that Livy is probably relying on a source that relied on Fabius Pictor. Dr G 1:03:35 Oh, okay. Well, that makes things more interesting. No wonder there's so many baby I involved. Dr Rad 1:03:42 Well, that's exactly it. It's probably the case that a lot of the stuff that we're dealing with at this point in time, as it has been for quite some time, is drawing on like family histories and family traditions that have been passed down. And if those people go on to be some of the source material that Livy is using, well, some of their relatives get a spotlight thrust upon them. Dr G 1:04:07 Well, well, well, okay, a point of Tension we have reached you. Dr G 1:04:41 Meanwhile, in Sicily, I will try to cover this quickly, but there are some pretty fun things that are happening in Sicily at this point in time. According to Diodorus Siculus, he gets three of the names of the military tribunes correct and one of them terribly wrong. Him and two not mentioned at all, but be that as it may, what's going on with the tyrant of Syracuse, Dionysus. He's taken his army to Hipponium, which is a colony of the Locrian people. It's in Calabria, and he's hanging out there, partly because he is in favor with the locrians. And by in favor of the locrians, he likes them because they agreed to his marriage suggestion. The Rhegians Dr Rad 1:05:31 refused. Finally, somebody sees sense. They were Dr G 1:05:34 like, Sure, you can marry one of the nice girls. You're my favorite people in southern Italy, I'm gonna do things for you. So now, when he starts taking over things, sometimes he gives a bit of the land to the Locrians, being like, you guys, here's a gift. And they're like, cheers, thanks. I'm sure that's making the locrians very popular with all of their neighbors. Meanwhile, the Rhegians and their situation, because that's made him really angry. He's still stewing over that. So he decides that what better than to attack them directly? That's really what needs to happen now. And he builds up to it with a sort of a sneaky, I'm just putting some supplies here. Don't worry about it. We're going to be moving on shortly. And the Rhegians, for some reason, are like, okay, it's a transportation mover. That's fine. Dr Rad 1:06:24 Sounds like the Cuban Missile Crisis. Dr G 1:06:28 I mean, the Rhegians, they should have, maybe they should have realized it gets to the point where so many supplies are building up outside of their city. They're like, Excuse me, you said you were moving on. He's like, Well, I'm not moving on. It's a siege. Dr Rad 1:06:45 Like, oh no, wow. A surprise siege. Dr G 1:06:48 Well, yeah, one that they didn't see coming for a little while. Apparently, even though all the stuff was arrived, I was gonna say another siege engine that's curious, Dr Rad 1:06:58 all these weapons, no surprise. What's going on? Dr G 1:07:02 Not smart guys. Not Dr Rad 1:07:04 smart day for another several months. Yeah. Dr G 1:07:07 What is this? The Trojan War, anyway. So aside from the Rhegian's silliness in this moment, they decide, once they realize it is a siege and the target is indeed them. They wheel themselves into action. They sign up a guy called Phyton as their general. Dr Rad 1:07:29 Once again, could be a character in the Marvel Universe. What is going on? Dr G 1:07:33 I think, I think they got the Greek from these guys, so they went with it. And he's well organized, and he decides that they're gonna attack the siege engines. That's the first plan, and it's a good plan. They burn a whole bunch of the siege equipment, and this means that they're fighting outside of the walls, which also means that they're engaging with the Sicilian Greeks. Dionysus himself gets struck by a lance in the groin. Apparently, it's more common than you'd think, because we've had other characters in history so far this has happened to it's a weak spot, apparently. Well, yeah, Dr Rad 1:08:10 I mean, to be fair, what I would say to most people out there, if attacked by a man is kick him in the crutch and run. If I had a lance, I'd probably use that too. Dr G 1:08:20 Exactly, you know, go for the soft spot, yeah. So he barely escapes death, apparently, and has difficulty recovering from this wound. Dr Rad 1:08:28 Well, yeah, fair enough. It hurts a lot, a lot of vasectomy. Nevertheless, the siege Dr G 1:08:35 continues. So, you know, I imagine the case being that Dionysus, the tyrant, is sort of wheeled off to a tent nearby, and is lying there, sort of trying to recover, and is still like continue the siege. So he's still in charge. He's still around. The siege continues to happen. Meanwhile, there's also the Olympic games happening. Of course, it's a big year, and Dionysus decides to send a team to the Olympic Games. He's like, I'm Greek. I'm allowed to go. And he's very keen to have some professional poets recite his poetry. He considers himself a poet. Oh, Dr Rad 1:09:15 of course he does. Of course he does. He just fits with the whole tyrant modus operandi, doesn't it to write terrible poetry and force other people to listen to it. The Dr G 1:09:24 entitlement does not end. He was madly addicted to poetry. So the trouble is that he sends his professional reciters of poetry to the Olympic Games, and people come along to listen because they're like, Oh, well, you know, let's see what he's got to offer. And then they hear the verse them, and the verse is so bad, they start to Dr Rad 1:09:47 be pleased to hear that actually, you know, I'm actually getting strong vibes from like the Barbie movie, like when they're all sitting around the fireplace singing Matchbox 20. Dr G 1:09:56 So people at the Olympic Games are laughing at. Dionysus poetry. It doesn't matter that it's being recited by professionals. That's not enough to cover up the inferior quality of the verse itself. Ouch. Even worse, he has chariot tier teams involved that get involved in crashes so they get eliminated from the competition. So that's a Dr Rad 1:10:19 blow that's fairly common, though, isn't it? But Dr G 1:10:23 not only that, other members of the team that get through that whole process, there's a shipwreck on the way home. So he loses a whole bunch of his Olympic team in the return journey as Dr Rad 1:10:33 well. Nobody talks about this in the history of the Olympics, Dr G 1:10:37 exactly. Everyone's just like, turn up. Do the Olympics win a wreath? Have a good time. We Dr Rad 1:10:41 talk about Munich, we talk about all this other stuff, but where is the shipwreck of 391, approximately, Dr G 1:10:48 exactly, exactly the shipwreck. And this, it's devastating, because not only is Dionysus dealing with the fact that he's lost a whole bunch of his team in the return journey, but the ones who managed to survive to get home start spreading the stories about his terrible poetry and how it was received, because that's the story of the Olympics for them. And he catches wind of this, and he's so annoyed and so frustrated, you can just imagine he's trying to sit up, but he's got this groin wound. He's like, but my art poetry, my soft parts. Dr Rad 1:11:27 There once was a tyrant from Syracuse, yes, exactly, really, really didn't like to lose Dr G 1:11:34 it's that kind of poetry. You know, he invented the limerick, and nobody appreciated it. So frustrating for him. Anyway, the good news is that he has his advisors who managed to persuade him that he is actually the object of envy, and people are laughing at him because they're jealous of his Dr Rad 1:11:58 talent, of course, of course, now. And so the key Dr G 1:12:03 thing is to not give up and to persist with your art until eventually, that envy transforms into admiration. So his devotion to his writing is not subdued by this devastating Olympic Games. And I imagine, you know, he's in pain. He's probably going back to writing his poetry as well. Now, the other small little detail that Diodorus Siculus provides about this year 391 is that the Romans fight a battle at Gurasium. Oh, Gurasium. Yes, I tried to find Gurasium. We don't know where Gurasium was. It feels like another made up name by Diodorus Siculus. Dr Rad 1:12:47 I was going to say, is it because it doesn't exist? Well, Dr G 1:12:50 I sometimes wonder whether he's misreading a source that he's looking at when it's written down, or that somebody has told him a piece of information and he's tried to remember it orally, and then misspelled it. And somehow the misspelling has come into it, because he says it's with the Volscians, and that would not be out of keeping with where the Romans are at right now. Sure, like the Volscians are far closer than the Etruscans in the north or, yeah, and even the Aequii things like that, the Volsinii and they he says that the Romans slew a great number of the enemy, which is also the kind of thing that's relatively believable for the Romans in this time period. It Dr Rad 1:13:33 is. But Dr G, this is not where I'm at in my narrative. My narrative is telling me that the Romans are being given sign after sign, and they keep really ticking off the gods in return. Well, Dr G 1:13:44 but I mean, the good news is that we've got six military tribunes for consular power this year, and one of them could be going against the Volscians. Dr Rad 1:13:52 That's true. Not all of them have been given a specific campaign, Dr G 1:13:57 and that is my detail for 391 Dr Rad 1:14:00 Oh, well. Dr G, I think that means it is time for Dr G 1:14:04 the partial pick. Dr Rad 1:14:12 Oh, that was a long episode, Igor. Let's get into it. What is the partial pick? All About? Dr G, ooh, Dr G 1:14:19 the partial pick where we rate Rome against her own standards, with a possibility of 50 golden eagles, 10 across five categories. The first category is military clout, huh? Dr Rad 1:14:34 Well, well, well, well, the Dr G 1:14:39 Romans fought a battle at Jerusalem. I Dr Rad 1:14:43 I'm just thinking hard. I'm not really feeling a lot of military clout coming out of this year. It's really a lot more about the Gaul. There's a lot of detail about tribes going here and there. Dr G 1:14:55 Hmm, yeah, Livy got really wave laid by the detail, didn't he? Dr Rad 1:14:59 He did. But. We do have the conflict with a Volsinii, we do, and potentially the other place that just hid behind their walls. Don't mind if I do. Yeah, we do have a little bit of conflict. So I guess maybe, like a three or four again, I don't know. Dr G 1:15:21 Look, I think we've got even less detail than we had for the previous year. So maybe a three, Dr Rad 1:15:24 yeah, I'm just looking at my detail again. It really isn't lot. At least there's a bit more strategy here. The Romans used their cavalry to cut off their cavalry, and they surrendered, and then the other people were too scared, and then they plundered. There is a bit more detail. Now, you know what, four, because they get the salaries paid for. Oh yeah, that's a bit fancy, isn't it? It is a little bit I think they deserve a four for that and a 20 year truce. Dr G 1:15:51 A 20, well, let's save that for diplomacy, shall we? No, I Dr Rad 1:15:54 know, but I just mean, like militarily, it says something. I feel, I feel it. All Dr G 1:16:00 right? A four, okay, a four. The second category is diplomacy, okay. Dr Rad 1:16:06 Well, they do agree on a peace settlement, which seemingly makes them like BFFs with the Etruscans all of a sudden, and they do send ambassadors to just talk to the Gauls. It's probably not entirely true. It seems like the earliest versions of this story had two unnamed ambassadors going to Clusium, and they weren't going there as ambassadors. They were going there to spy. Dr G 1:16:52 Well, that sounds almost more likely, but from a diplomatic perspective, sending ambassadors somewhere, that's diplomacy, getting a truce fixed up. That's diplomacy, Dr Rad 1:17:03 yep, yep. All right, so what are we going to give them, like a three, sure. Okay, that's, that's our next category, expansion. Not really. They're traveling, but they're not expanding. Dr G 1:17:16 They're expanding their horizons. They Dr Rad 1:17:18 are. They are. They're definitely looking much further north than they ever have before, but their gaze is directed there by others. Dr G 1:17:27 All right, that's a zero. Yeah, the fourth category is virtus, Dr Rad 1:17:33 not particularly, I would say it's a pretty grim year. Actually got military tribunes laughing in the face of poor little plebeians. You've just heard God speak directly to them. Sorry, yeah, a God speak directly to them. Dr G 1:17:48 I mean, could he just be Dr Rad 1:17:50 mad? Mad as a hatter, they say. Dr G 1:17:53 All right, no, virtus. And finally, the citizen score, Dr Rad 1:17:57 hmm, well, there certainly is a sense of lingering disease in the air that's not great. We've got war with the Volsinii and another place, maybe, but it's victorious. Dr G 1:18:08 In both cases, it seems that Rome is posting a victory. Dr Rad 1:18:11 Yeah. Is that good news? Because they're still they're still fighting. They're still out there in the field Dr G 1:18:16 well, but they're also not saying that there's been substantial losses. So as far as Dr Rad 1:18:23 battles go, yeah, if anything, they're indicating the opposite, I would say. Dr G 1:18:26 So it's probably as good as it can be for when you're being very aggressive. It's actually it's Dr Rad 1:18:31 making me realize just how much Livy spends time talking about the Gauls I have almost nothing about what's actually happening in Rome. It's all about the Gauls and their various waves of migration. Dr G 1:18:44 And then these guys came over the Alps, and then these that Dr Rad 1:18:47 is literally what he does for like he's seriously invoking Herodotus. There is such a long passage where he talks about and then these guys, and then these guys, and then these guys encounter these guys, and then they take this pass, and they take that pass, and they go over here and they encounter these people. Honestly, I couldn't keep it all straight Dr G 1:19:04 on that account, I can say it must be a great time for the Roman citizens, because they're not getting dragged into anything yet. They're just sort of hanging around at Rome being like, didn't know the goals existed. Dr Rad 1:19:14 That's pretty much it never loved yet. But the fact that the Etruscans are worried by these people? Hmm, I don't know. Dr G 1:19:23 Okay, well, it's not having a direct impact on Roman citizens, though, Dr Rad 1:19:27 not yet, but it will fairly dramatically and soon. Dr G 1:19:32 Well, yes, but like, that's, that's a trouble for next Dr Rad 1:19:36 that's a 390 Roman problem. Yeah, okay, fair enough. All right, so citizen score. What are we saying? Then? Is it like a five? It like a five? I suppose it's not too bad, yeah, but there is that playground, maybe a four, and Camillus is gone, which they might be happy about. Dr G 1:19:51 Look, I think that's a win. It's back to a five. Dr Rad 1:19:55 Actually, that's true. Is Camillus being gone like a bit of a victory for them? Dr G 1:19:59 Yeah, I think so that's definitely what they wanted. Dr Rad 1:20:02 Well, I mean, some of them, not all of them, all right, so are we going to say five? Okay, all right, in that case, Dr G, it is a total of 12 Golden Eagles for Rome. I don't know why. I just said it like that, 12 Golden Eagles for Rome. Dr G 1:20:19 Huzzah. Well, they did better than the year before. Let's see if they can keep it up, Dr Rad 1:20:26 that they won't Dr G 1:20:28 just be like, let's be optimistic. People talk about 390 as being a terrible time, but we don't know yet, because we haven't Dr Rad 1:20:35 done it. That's right. I mean Gaelic sack. That could just mean Santa Claus, a tribal bag of some sort, Dr G 1:20:43 exactly, yeah, turned up with the Christmas presents Exactly, Dr Rad 1:20:47 exactly. It's like the Celtic version of Santa Claus, exactly, all right. Dr, G, well, I look forward to spending, presumably, at least three episodes talking about 390 BC, with you. Oh, I Dr G 1:21:00 look forward to it. Dr Rad 1:21:12 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. 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