Latest / The Growth Project / Episode 379: Breaking the Imposter Syndrome Cycle

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Episode 379: Breaking the Imposter Syndrome Cycle · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  How do you define failure. Yeah. Have you really have you really given yourself an opportunity to to pause and reflect and think about it, put some words in that, because if not, it's a great thing to do.
• 0:11
  It's an important thing to do. I think actually, because I think the the the more healthy you can get with your, your grasp and your, your meaning making of that term. Yeah, the greater likelihood you can stay out of some of these ditches we're talking about.
• 0:28
  Welcome to the Growth Project, a podcast brought to you by inflows doctor Drew Brandon here joining.
• 0:35
  And this is this is. Hey, this is exciting. No. For the first time since joining the inflows team, we have in-studio, Anthony Libra has a feel. It feels good. It feels like I'm in a studio I know you, we had you on the pod. Yeah, but that was while in Nashville. Doing your thing. So that was a great way to kind of get you go on everything.
• 0:54
  But yeah it's exciting to have you. Glad to have you here in Greenville with this this week. Yeah. Excited to be here. Excited to make an impact on the pod. Yeah. Awesome. Well, as we kind of get into it today, I really like this topic. Anthony. And here's why. Heck, having worked with so many different people over the years, different industries, different places in their career journey, this is something that hits a ton of people now.
• 1:22
  And so hopefully our listeners are hearing that thinking like, I wonder what he's talking about. Right. I'll tell you a second. But it it hits so many different people at different stages of their journey. And the other reason I think it's such a great topic is, it is not unique in any way to what you do for a living where you are in your career journey, what your role is, none of that matters.
• 1:45
  And so what we're talking about is imposter syndrome, which let's start there. So when you hear that term Anthony like explore that a little bit for us. Big picture like what are we talking about when we say imposter syndrome? I really think that it's easiest you can define it is just like a persistent belief of fraudulence fraudulence. Excuse me.
• 2:06
  Despite competence. Right. You can see it as this. There might be clear evidence that exists otherwise, but you can't fight against it between your own ears. You keep coming to this conclusion that you are a fraud, that you don't belong, that you're you're not capable in whatever domain that you're in. And it's interesting too, because it doesn't matter regardless of qualifications, regardless of new certifications, regardless of promotions, regardless of even verbal praise.
• 2:30
  Something as simple as that. You can have all of those metrics, but the confidence never keeps up with it, and you're always fighting that internal battle of, hey, I don't think I belong here. Like, I don't believe I'm made for this, so to speak. Yeah. And that's what's so hard to grasp what you just said about it.
• 2:49
  Sometimes the people who have that thought, or they're living with this kind of perception of themselves, they're great stuff. Yeah, like like whatever it is, they're a fantastic educator. They're a talented attorney. They're an exceptional physician. It doesn't matter that they have a high level of competency, and they're delivering in whatever way their role demands that of them.
• 3:13
  And yet when they think about themselves and they internalize their self-talk and their internal narrative, they lack confidence, right? Like they don't think they can do it. They don't think that, they are the person who the people around them think they are. Yeah. There's this mismatch. Yeah. It's never enough, right? It's never enough depending on what you do, how well you even did it.
• 3:40
  It's always this case of a moving goalpost type scenario. Okay. Hey, I got to this position. It's not enough. Okay. Hey, I got this mark on this exam. It's still not enough. Hey, I was able to conduct myself effectively in front of a group of people. I just got lucky. And you always just you. You find yourself finding you for yourself further and further and further and further away from those goalposts.
• 4:02
  And there's never that I made it moment or I do belong type moment. Yeah. And as I think about it, I obviously I'm not going to name names or companies or anything, but I can very quickly in my mind go back in and dial up people. Over the years that I've spent time working with who have had big jobs.
• 4:24
  Yeah, like big jobs at big organizations where they are, you know, on paper, leading orgs within orgs with a thousand people that report to them, just, you know, or, you know, you name it. And yet they have some of it's in them where there's, there's this internal I'm not sure or I'm not, you know, I just this void.
• 4:49
  Yeah. It's the void. If you said of like, man, am I. Yeah. It's just a matter of time before they all find out. Yeah. That's that's the kind of question people can find themselves asking. Yeah. It's so innately fear based. It's so that idea of like, one day I'm going to walk into the office and they're all going to surround me like, hey, we know the truth.
• 5:07
  Like you, you don't actually belong here. And it's it's it's such an internal battle that goes on in your head. And like you said, this is true of entry level employees. This is true of middle managers. This is true of C-suite type executives. It doesn't matter what age or doesn't matter what position you fall in. It doesn't matter what domain work, creativity, athletics like that.
• 5:27
  This is common. This is pervasive in our everyday culture, in this comparison culture that that ultimately we find ourselves in. Yeah. One more note I want to make before we jump into the conversation a little more fully is this can exist in different ways. And so we're talking about what I would call probably the most kind of textbook and explicit form of this, imposter syndrome.
• 5:48
  It can also exist in a way where, you've got a person who is clearly very skilled, and yet the the amount of nervousness and anxiety they experience pertaining to their performance is disproportionately large. Yeah. And like, that's a thing that is absolutely off saying. And part of what's going on there is in what we're saying is like there's a there's an element of imposter syndrome.
• 6:13
  They wouldn't call it that necessarily. No, but but part of what's happening is there's this internal concern over, okay. When the when the demands go up, then what's going to happen. Right. Am I going to be exposed? Am I going to get embarrassed? Am I going to be vulnerable like the the anxiety is disproportionately out of whack? Despite the fact they've got this long history of doing great.
• 6:36
  Yeah. And whatever it is that they do. Yeah. So it lives like that also. Absolutely. Okay, so where are we? Where are we going next? Let's dig into this conversation a little bit more. Yeah I mean I want to I think the the big thing is talking about that, that manifestation that you were just talking about. Right. So the at its core, when we suffer from imposter syndrome, we have trouble internalizing success, just as you were talking about.
• 6:58
  Right. We have this issue in terms of, hey, I hit X goal, I got X promotion, I was able to do a quality job and I got verbal praise for it. That's no longer me. That's just a subject of circumstance that comes from luck. It comes from timing. It wasn't actually me and it's that battle that exists between what is the evidence show versus what is my brain telling me.
• 7:25
  Okay. So here here's where this gets tough because here's what I'm thinking when you say that is obviously that's not good. Yeah. But isn't it better than the person who is like I'm, I'm the man. Like you guys are lucky to have me. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's tough because a lot of times we when we have these thoughts, it's in the context of wanting to be better.
• 7:45
  Right. It might be. It might even start off as well intended. Like in terms of everything. Right. We are our own worst critic. That's true. And we are going to nitpick what we can do better. However, if you continually find those moving goalposts, when is it that you're going to find fulfillment? When is it that you're going to find satisfaction?
• 8:03
  And of course, there's a there's a spectrum that exists there, right? You can't be cocky Braggadocious arrogant. But at the same time, the other end, the overt humility aspect of it is I'm not enough. I'm not capable of it. So what is what is it? Actual sweet spot of self-confidence looks like in that regard. Yeah, yeah. But I think it just is that we're clear with our listeners that that phrase and what it really means when you say success isn't internalized is it comes back to someone just attribution.
• 8:30
  Right. And so, yeah, we're attributing to the success to things outside of our direct control. Whether that's. Oh well I just happen to like be in the right place at the right time or it's because luck the ball bounced my way, whatever it might be. Can those things happen. Well of course they can. Yeah. But the point is you need to be able to see it comprehensively and also recognize the role you played in the fact that it worked out.
• 8:55
  Yeah, not in an unhealthy way. That's arrogant and ego driven, but simply from like a self-efficacy and competency standpoint. Like, okay, yeah, like I've worked at this. I've got skills, capabilities. And that was part of why it went our way. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. It is okay to see that. You need to see that. Yeah.
• 9:12
  we know in the literature that certain profiles of people, certain personalities of people.
• 9:19
  Yeah, are more prone to experience this. Yeah. So let's dig into that. Who who is that. What is the profile of people who are more
• 9:27
  Yeah, I mean, I think when we think about it, it's these individuals that take a lot of pride in what they do. They have a very high work identity. They maybe a high athletic identity, whatever domain in which you're experiencing this imposter syndrome.
• 9:39
  Usually these individuals are really high achievers, right. And it comes from those sort of thought patterns that we were just talking about there in which, hey, I was successful, but I still need to improve x, y, z if I really want to truly belong with this group, with this elite group of people, I need to keep getting better, or else I'm going to get found out or else I'm going to be continually exposed.
• 9:58
  So we see that high work identity, that high domain identity, if you will, and that idea of, hey, I need to be better, I need to be a high achiever. Yeah. So just to clear it up everybody high work identity means what I think at its simplest is just hey when if I talked about myself as a sport performance psychologist that's who I am as a person.
• 10:19
  That's who I am at my core. When I go to introduce myself, when I go and have conversations with individuals and people walk away like, oh, that's Anthony. He's a performance sport and performance psychologist. He's a mental performance consultant, and his goal is to help people thrive in high demand environments. At the end of the day, it's true to who you are.
• 10:36
  It's how you lead your everyday life. Yeah. And so that's where there can be a little bit of a double bind, right? Because on that end, we want people to have a high work identity of meaning. Like it matters to you. Yeah. And there's a high degree of buy in. There's a high degree of emotional investment. Those are good things.
• 10:53
  However, we also see that those are the people more prone to feel this sense of imposter syndrome. Yeah. So as you're hearing that and you're thinking about where you might identify or how you might identify in terms of the importance of your role in your work in your life, just recognize you. Of course not. Not according to us, but according to the literature.
• 11:13
  You were a little bit more prone and likely to experience some of these things. Yeah, and we can add to that too, because it's not just how you view success. It's also right along with how you view your mistakes. Right? Because on the flip side, right, when whenever you do find those mistakes or let's say there is a time where you don't hit the mark, where you don't meet the standard, those feel catastrophic.
• 11:33
  They just relay and replay over and over and over in your head. It only feeds that imposter syndrome. It only feeds that voice in your head that keeps telling you everyone else is more capable than I am, that I don't belong here, and it's only a matter of time before I get exposed. So especially in those times where you have these individuals who might be a little bit more in the middle, like, okay, I made a mistake, I came up short, but I'm going to learn from it.
• 11:55
  I'm going to get better. That thought doesn't go through their heads. It's a lot more of the this is just who I am. This is my this is who I am as a person. This is why I'm not enough. Okay, I'm going to interject a little. Sure. Okay. Maybe not a curveball, but an example you already anticipate. Okay.
• 12:12
  All right. Because what you're talking about there and this is a real important thing here about, you know, mistakes feeling catastrophic. It takes me back to. It was a long time ago. I remember back in graduate school, I was taking a, a marriage and family counseling course. Okay, to be clear, I don't do marriage right. It was part of the curriculum way back there that in graduate school.
• 12:36
  And the professor was excellent. My head had spent many, many years teaching this course and many made me years doing marriage and family counseling, which is important. And I remember she said, the number one thing she looks for that indicates couples are stuck in kind of struggling is I'll use the example of, we'll say, we'll focus on the husband for a second is, the things that he does well look really, really small to his wife in the things he does poorly look really, really huge.
• 13:12
  Now to his wife. And in that model, like you take that template, it is really hard to be successful. Yeah. You know, it is really hard to have a fulfilling marriage. It's really hard for that husband to feel like, okay, like, I'm doing okay. Like I'm doing well in my attempts to be a good husband to my wife.
• 13:33
  And that's exactly we're talking about here. I think people that struggle is imposter syndrome. The things that they do well looks small to them, nerves, and they lack the confidence you expect when those things occur. And then conversely, things that don't go well, although maybe they're just kind of a one off here at one up there look. Absolutely massive.
• 13:55
  Yeah. I mean it's just hard to be successful in that. It's almost impossible to be completely honest with you. And one of the analogies I used to, I used to talk with this concept about some of my clients is you're looking at carnival mirrors, right? Like especially when we talk in the context of how we're notice, remember, and weighing success versus failure, quality versus poor.
• 14:15
  You're seeing a representation of the truth, right? You're seeing the things that went wrong. There might be some truth that maybe you didn't do everything perfectly, but that distorted truth is maybe you still hit the mark. Maybe you still did a quality job. Maybe you're getting verbal praise and feedback. Hey, that was an excellent job. Just make sure next time you do this, fix XYZ, address xyz.
• 14:35
  You're only putting that notice. Remember in way on that end portion there. The latter part of that statement, not the hey, you did an excellent job. So again like that that challenging of what is going through your head isn't necessarily fact. It could be a very distorted version of the truth there. And especially when we have that distorted version of the truth and we're looking at carnival mirrors, success is going to feel impossible.
• 14:59
  It's going to feel like it's just always just out of arm's reach.
• 15:02
  Anthony. So let's get into this next segment here. As we think about, you know, now that we have established here's what we mean when we say imposter syndrome, what we've talked about, who are the people who are more, more vulnerable to demonstrate this experience? Yeah. What are the things to look out for. So if and when a person is experiencing imposter syndrome, what are the common responses that we see from folks?
• 15:25
  Yeah, I think at its simplest we see some version of perfectionism. Right? Again. And the idea of perfectionism is that the standard is perfection. There aren't there is no room for mistakes. There is no room for setbacks. We need to be perfect. And you'll also notice, because you have such an emphasis on perfectionism, there's an overwork component. There's an over preparation component.
• 15:45
  And because, hey, if I'm not enough, I need to work twice as hard as drew is. In order to be enough. I need to work twice as hard as the people who left and right of me to make up for that gap that exists. And it really, if we think about this, it creates a quite a vicious cycle where you have you have that initial doubt, that little seed of doubt that goes, I don't belong.
• 16:05
  I'm not enough. Well, if I don't belong and not enough, then I need to work twice as hard. And if I work twice as hard, I'm probably going to see results out of that, right? I'm probably likely going to see that. Hey, this got me to where I need to be because I work twice as hard. You take a little sigh of relief there.
• 16:21
  Hey, like, okay, for now, I wasn't exposed. For now, I actually do belong. And then we come back full circle and that doubt kicks in again. Yeah, right. And if you keep repeating that this is where we talk about the proneness to burnout. This is where we talk about the proneness to always never feeling like enough. And it's it is a vicious, vicious cycle.
• 16:41
  Yeah. Because think about the patterns that get established in the cycle. What you're describing right there. Yeah. And you know, then we get back to the biology of tolerance and all of this, and you begin to actually feel like, oh, well, last time I had this big meeting camp coming up, I prepped for I'm just going to make up numbers here six hours.
• 16:57
  Yeah. And I gave myself a B-plus for how it went. Well, then I guess I better prep for ten hours. Yeah, and maybe I can get an A minus, but that won't be good enough either. So then what do I do? Prep for 12 hours. And so it's this these very psychological patterns that can lead people and get them into these routines in this kind of over indexing, work like you're describing, only to find themselves right back in the same place.
• 17:25
  Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. The confidence just continues to erode. The confidence continue in the the idea of okay, well if he's working an eight hour day, I've got to work a 12 hour day. And as soon as I had a 12 hour day, if that's my version of a B-plus, if I'm aiming for A's, if I'm this overachiever with a high work identity, I'm going for A's.
• 17:43
  I'm going for 14 hour days. And we see the just how unsustainable that is in the long term, and how much that can just take up both a physical and mental toll on a person. Yeah, I'm thinking of some examples I've seen over the years to this too. And it's it can be so difficult to be on this side of it as well, in the sense of you can look at a person in the eye and very quickly just realize that they don't believe in themselves nearly the way that you do.
• 18:12
  And man, that's such a hard place to be. Yeah. Because, like, I will take you to a sports example. Like I've had this happen plenty over the years, with football. And it's like, man, if only you could believe in you as much as I and everyone else in this building does. But here's the problem. I'm not going on the field.
• 18:31
  No, only you are. Yeah, and the ball is not going to be my hands. It's going to be in your hands. Yeah. And so you can take any sport and you out as a matter. It's tough to be the person who's a part of the support system because you can say the perfect thing. Yeah. And you can say it on repeat.
• 18:51
  And it just it's it becomes frustrating. It's just not enough. Yeah. And it's never enough. Yeah. Right. It never becomes enough. And this is true of environments that are built for psychological safety and built for praise and recognizing achievement in accomplishment. Right. No matter what you tell me, if I'm someone who has this imposter syndrome and it's just grown and grown and grown over the years, I'm just gonna be like, well, you're only small.
• 19:17
  A tiny piece of the puzzle. He doesn't know fully who I am. He doesn't know fully that I don't belong. Right. And that that almost devil on your shoulder, so to speak, is always going to be whispering in your ear about like, hey, I'm right. Everyone else is wrong. Yeah, yeah, right. And I think it's yeah, it just ends up becoming a because this is a little bit of a tangent in a sense.
• 19:38
  But when we talk about developing felt competence and confidence, which are a key element here of how you really try to overcome things like this, nobody develops that by people telling them how good they are things. Yeah, doesn't work that way. You develop those things by seeing yourself do the thing you were trying to do, and then experiencing the feedback loop of that psychologically of like, okay, you know what?
• 20:02
  Like I'm getting somewhere, you know, my effort wasn't in vain. I see evidence of progress. I see evidence of me executing when the bullets are flying. Yeah, right. Like that's a very real thing. Yeah. So it's like you develop confidence. Yeah.
• 20:16
  So it's worth having a conversation here too, about some of the origin story of imposter syndrome. This idea of just how does this grow? How does this come to actually be within this? And really, at its core, it is just so incredibly fear based. It is so just coming out of this root of fear, so to speak.
• 20:37
  Yeah. Well, and I think there's two primary elements where this comes to life on the fear side. One is fear of failure, which, you know, can be public or private. No. And then the other one, and this is when it's more public fear of exposure. So there are many ways to fail. And that word is just gosh, it's amazing.
• 20:55
  We've actually done this before when we when talking about kind of the psychology of failure with people, teams in organizations is we'll ask people to write down what is your definition of the word failure. And it's amazing what people will come up with. Yeah, both good and bad. I mean, there have been some over the years that have just floored me where you can literally like hear the pain in people when they write about what failure means to them, you know?
• 21:23
  And then you can see the people based upon the words that they choose, or your traditional kind of like growth mindset, individuals who are talking all about like learning and growth. And that's what we're where we want to be, obviously. But yeah, a lot of it comes back to fear of failure. And then if it's a more public type failure thing, the exposure that comes with that.
• 21:44
  But man am I going to be exposed. Yeah. Are people going to think different about me differently about me as a result of what happened? And then I think there comes a little bit of this as well. It's almost kind of some like identity protection. Yeah. I was like, oh man, I'm the leader. Or like, I've been here this long.
• 22:01
  I should be able to do X. And then there where that kind of leads people oftentimes is a different kind of avoidant tendencies. Yeah. Because the best way to avoid that is to just the best way to avoid the fear of that is to avoid the task. Yeah. But that cycle can become very compelling and very hard to break out.
• 22:22
  Yeah. And it goes right into why you do what you do. Yeah. Right. And you can think about this and work. You can think about this in athletics. You can think about this in performances and whatever domain you're talking about, whatever domain really the individual is feeling this imposter syndrome. Ask yourself that question why do I do what I do?
• 22:39
  Is it to avoid this fear of exposure? Is it to avoid this idea that I don't want to fail? I don't want everybody to see me as incompetent because that is very much so. That avoidance type approach, right? That that idea that I'm doing everything I can just to make sure from an ego perspective, I'm safe. There's some salvation there.
• 22:59
  Me is. On the flip side, we have these more growth oriented, oriented individual, these more mastery oriented individuals that when they do what they do on a day in and day out basis, it's further own development, it's further own growth. It's working towards mastery. It's this idea like, hey, there's going to be bumps and setbacks along the way, but I'm going to be better for it.
• 23:17
  But I'm going to find ways to continually improve and see that progress for what it actually is. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, just as we're saying that that would be a great activity for some of our listeners to do, and maybe you're driving down the road right now. Fine.
• 23:31
  How do you define failure. Yeah. Have you really have you really given yourself an opportunity to to pause and reflect and think about it, put some words in that, because if not, it's a great thing to do.
• 23:42
  It's an important thing to do. I think actually, because I think the the the more healthy you can get with your, your grasp and your, your meaning making of that term. Yeah, the greater likelihood you can stay out of some of these ditches we're talking about.
• 23:56
  Yeah. And then you can take that even a step further. Why do I feel unsatisfied?
• 24:00
  Why do I feel frustrated? Is this true? Am I sure right? Is this an actual truth that I'm seeing in my day to day in which I am not being enough, or am I just as my mind playing tricks on me in which I'm moving these goalposts? Yeah, right. Okay, so there's some examples of where this comes from.
• 24:22
  Let's get into talking about what you do. Yeah. Right. I mean, that's always the operative question, right? Is like, we get everything and it's funny, you know, you and I both dealt with this in the time that we've each worked in this field. But there's always those people where you're talking about any kind of concept, psychological concept, and you can just see him.
• 24:41
  It's like, okay, what do I do though? Yeah, that's right. And that's fair. That's fair. I mean, I'm a big believer in we first have to establish an understanding of here's what this is. Here's what this means. Now here's where it comes from. You need to you need to understand what you're talking about. Then we can get to what do I do.
• 24:58
  Yeah. So start is down that path back into like where do what do you do with these things, these challenges. Yeah. And and so many things that we do. And really at its core, when we talk about effective problem solving, the awareness has to be the foundational piece here, right? The awareness of, hey, do what do I have this first and foremost.
• 25:17
  And then B, what does it sound like? What does it actually look like? How does it manifest for me? Name it to tame it so to speak. Right. The only the only the only way that you can actually effectively deal with this imposter syndrome is how you have an awareness of it, and you have it awareness of what it looks like for you.
• 25:32
  So this idea goes back to thoughts don't equal facts. That Carnival mirror example that I was talking about earlier is very true. Where you're seeing a version of the truth, you're not seeing the whole truth for what it actually is within that. So really, when doubt does begin to spike, when that narrative begins to begin playing in your head, in there, take a moment.
• 25:54
  Is this actually true? Yeah. Is there is there evidence to support this or is there evidence to go against this as well? One of the one of the most powerful ways people can fight against it, against this is, with evidence, one of the most powerful thought restructuring and reframing techniques is, hey, what is the evidence for and against this?
• 26:13
  And that helps individuals get out of their own head, put pen to paper, so to speak, and see, okay, this is the body of evidence that says I'm doing pretty well. Yeah. You know, where is the evidence is such a good question. Yeah, such an effective question to help people begin to because that's the thing is I always describe we've got to, do what we can to kind of weaken the power of the irrational thought.
• 26:35
  Yeah. Negative thought. And that's a great way to do it. If we okay this challenge it. Let's put let's press on it. Let's push on it. You know where is the emphasis. Because oftentimes the answer is no. And I want to say this too because because I'm a guy I feel comfortable calling out the men here. So let me call them in here for just a moment.
• 26:51
  Imposter syndrome. And it's tendencies are very difficult for men to acknowledge. Yeah. We don't want to admit things like this. Right. Why is that? Well, because the kind of the conventional notion of what it means to be, like a successful, competent man is that you struggle with things like this, and that precise line of reasoning can be the thing that will cause you to struggle with this indefinitely.
• 27:18
  Yeah. So I agree with you completely and wholeheartedly. And that awareness is where it must begin. And then it must become an acknowledgment and like, hey, you're going to talk about this. You got to be willing to to say to people that you can really count on, hey, this is real. Yeah, here's what I'm thinking. Here's what I deal with.
• 27:37
  Like, you've got to be willing to open up the door. Yeah. And especially true if a man, the stereotypical man, is supposed to fit this mold to fit this bill of. I'm supposed to be strong. I was supposed to be self-assured, self-confident. The moment these thoughts keep coming in, it's only going to catalyze more of those thoughts, and it's only going to even strengthen that imposter syndrome even further, too.
• 27:58
  And like, just again, when we talk about bringing other people in to use those individuals as an accurate way to appraise yourself, like, hey, is what I'm saying to you right now, like if especially if this individual knows you within this work domain, within this specific domain in which the imposter syndrome is really beginning to manifest. Hey, like, talk to me about this.
• 28:18
  Like, am I seeing this for what it actually is? Or is this where I'm in these carnival mirrors type situation? Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to kind of go through this step by step. Step one we've just established is name the pattern. Name the pattern. Step two redefine mistakes. And that's similar to what we were saying a little bit earlier about kind of understanding what failure means.
• 28:37
  But we we must get to the point where we really believe and we internalize that mistakes are simply part of the process of building skills. Yeah. You know, when you can see it from a developmental standpoint, changes everything. Yeah. Changes everything. But we've got to be able to see that mistakes are not desirable, but necessary and productive.
• 29:02
  And facilitators I mean, we've talked about with with different forms of like pain. Well it's happened I can't change it. How can it be formative? Yeah, that's the key. They've got to be forward. So that's step two. Yeah. And I think the idea too being it's not necessarily avoiding all mistakes. It's when mistakes happen. How do you respond.
• 29:23
  Yeah. You're not going to avoid them now. It's it's impossible. It's the human element of it.
• 29:27
  Yeah I remember I was this was years ago now and, I was a part of a team meeting, not a sport team, but an organization. And, the kind of the leader of a team was primarily leading the meeting, and I was I was kind of helping, but I was definitely second fiddle that day.
• 29:47
  And he asked the team the question. He said, how will we respond if something goes wrong? Nah. I'm like, time out, time lag time. Can I say something, please? I was like, let's rephrase that. Yeah, because something is going to go wrong. Yeah. It's instead talk about how will we respond when something goes wrong. Because that's 100% what's gonna happen.
• 30:10
  Yeah. And having those contingency plans in place is so powerful. Right. Like if this does go wrong, more like when this does go wrong, then I'm going to do x, y, z, right? Then I'm going to respond in this effective manner, having that blueprint ahead of time. Those in that intentionality definitely helps as a buffer against some of these more counterproductive imposter syndrome type thoughts.
• 30:32
  All right, so let's keep on our progression here. Step one name a pattern. Step two redefine mistakes. Step three limit global labels means one unpacked please. Yeah I mean just we're talking about areas. We're just talking about mistakes. We're talking about times where we came up short. That isn't identity defining. No matter how much that voice in your head tells you that it's identifying that it's global, that it's true to drew, that it's true to me.
• 30:57
  We have to find this way to acknowledge that just because we came up short in a specific situation doesn't inherently mean that it's all encompassing, that it's just all of who you are at that point. It is a moment in time. It is an opportunity to learn from it. But it is not true of everything that you do, of all of the output that you create.
• 31:16
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, people do this. I mean, it's so unfortunate when you see this where the person who, you know, it's the team leader who has done 39 things right, and on the 40th, she unfortunately internalizes this. And Catastrophize is this. And it's like we were causing it. What about the 39 things? Yeah, yeah. Where you did awesome and you had you made the right call.
• 31:43
  You had the right decision. Like, don't do that to yourself. I mean, that's where we in performance psychology find ourselves trying to kind of coach people to be like, hey, like, let's take a step back now. Not hyper focus on, as you said, this one thing that didn't go our way. Yeah. So then we get into step four, reframe the comparison.
• 32:03
  Which means what I mean, it's so tough nowadays to with with social media. And it's so tough nowadays in which we have so much access into other people and really the highlights of other people, the highest of highs and the glimpses of other individuals lives. And of course, when we when we see that, especially when we see that within similar people to ourselves, whether that's similar in job, whether it's similar in hobbies and extracurriculars, we take note of those things like, wow, how am I not there yet?
• 32:32
  Like, how is it possible that me at 29 years old, for it, so to speak, hasn't hit that standard yet? Yeah, and of course, when our eyes drift there, we find this comparison and we find it that. Okay, very clearly I don't belong with this elite group of people. I'm seeing it for myself. And you're. But you're not seeing the whole truth there.
• 32:52
  So when we talk about what it looks like for comparison, we talk about more of the trajectory is not position. And also that reframing of okay, this is this is where he's at. Where am I at. Yeah. What does it look like from my path in order to grow and develop and focusing on those things that I can control and those things are going to allow me to focus on my own progress.
• 33:12
  Got to run your own race, have to gather on your own race. And I think not. In my experience, everybody hits a point in their life where they recognize whatever it is they do and how good they are at it. There's always somebody out there doing it better. Yeah, right. Doing it better, doing it with bigger clients. Getting more acknowledgment would like give that up.
• 33:34
  Like it's amazing how freeing it is to give that up and just recognize that, like, you know what? That's her path. This is my path. I'm all in on this one. Yeah. Not easy way. Not easy at all. Not easy at all. And then we're going to finish here with step five. Shift the motivation. Shift the motivation. What we mean by that is part of where you were headed right there.
• 33:57
  Make it about progression. Make it about growth. Make it about development. Improvement in trajectory, the things that are ahead instead of making it so outcome driven and results based, where there will always be something that transpired that we are less than pleased with. Yeah, but you got to make it about and see it in the midst of the big picture.
• 34:18
  That's when we can take a more kind of long view, which is what we want to have. Yeah. And I to piggyback off that, ask yourself the question, am I moving towards something or am I moving away from something? Yeah. Good. Really good point. Am I moving towards my own progression and growth or am I moving away from I can't fail, I can't be embarrassed, I can't be exposed on the biggest stage that I have.
• 34:41
  Right. And whatever you if you're more working towards that more avoidant type path there, it's probably going to drive a lot of that anxiety. It's probably going to continue to drive a lot of those irrational thoughts that you may be having right now. Yep, yep. Okay, so I know what you kind of move toward the finish line here.
• 34:57
  How about any closing thoughts from you? What, you want to kind of help us wind up with your Anthony? I think at its core, this is so common. It's so pervasive. It isn't exclusive to 1%, 2% of people. I'd be I'd put some good money that every single person deals with this in some capacity at some point, no matter where they are in their career, no matter where they are in whatever journey that they find themselves on, this is probably one of the most common thought patterns that we see, and it can be incredibly difficult to shape to to shake.
• 35:29
  Excuse me. Right. Yeah. 100 possible. Both actually shaking. Yeah that's right. But no, I agree with you completely. And I think my suggestion would be as we kind of wrap up going back to where you touched on relate to awareness, just be willing to do the work needed to to assess this to some degree. No. And, if you find yourself dealing with these types of challenges, to say you are not alone is a massive understatement.
• 35:57
  Yeah, because it's so common. The good news here is we have a great understanding of what this is, how this develops, and then also what to do. So be honest with yourself, be willing to be honest with others and then try to move in the direction of some of these, action steps that we talked about today. We'll said some way we will, as always, very appreciative of our listeners tuning in to the growth project.
• 36:18
  Let us know how we get to serve you. Well, we always appreciate reviews on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and we will look forward to our next conversation coming up here real soon. Thanks. I think thank you.