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Free Speech, Free Expression and Consequences · Bourbon & Rum

0:08
Welcome to another episode of Bourbon and Rum.
0:11
This is a podcast of two brothers from opposite ends of
0:15
the spectrum. My name's Kent, I'm a rum
0:22
drinker, and I'm from the left side of the aisle.
0:24
And I'm Kyle. I, like bourbon, tend to be a
0:26
little more conservative. Join us as we explore this
0:32
experiment. Can two brothers from different
0:35
sides of the political spectrum have a civil conversation and
0:39
celebrate our differences? What are you drinking?
0:54
I am drinking a pre made cocktail by Penelope.
1:00
Penelope is a they do rye and bourbon.
1:02
It's a a relatively new brand, but they they've got this black
1:09
walnut old fashioned premix that they make with their with their
1:13
rye whiskey, walnut bitters and vanilla dimerara syrup.
1:19
So yeah, it's pretty tasty. That sounds great.
1:24
Little dangerous I I can't taste the alcohol.
1:29
Well, Speaking of that, you had a an Exo class from last week.
1:38
I'm drinking El Pasador de Lauro, and this is an Exo rum
1:48
from Guatemala. It's 40 proof.
1:53
It's kind of sweet, but it is like glass.
1:59
There is just no heat at all to it.
2:04
Well, and it's like that stuff I was talking about that Zacapa
2:08
stuff. I mean it's like a one way
2:11
ticket to alcohol poisoning. I mean, you could drink the
2:13
whole bottle not even knowing you're drinking anything.
2:16
I mean, I think you'd, I think you'd know.
2:26
Well, man, I had a good time on our last episode with the with
2:32
the guest. It's nice to return to our
2:34
normal format for, for this time.
2:37
Interesting times. I've, I've got to say, you know
2:41
what? We were still very much living
2:43
in the in the aftermath and the outcomes of the assassination.
2:48
And, you know, I guess I just want to say again that it has
2:54
been interesting to see and learn more about Charlie Kirk.
2:58
I all I had about him was the sound bites that you get when
3:01
you're on a different side. And I'm impressed by the
3:06
commitment that he showed to free speech, even if I weren't
3:10
impressed. An assassination is beneath the
3:14
dignity of this country, and it's not where we want to be.
3:19
And I want to give a full throated, no hesitations,
3:24
condemnation of anything that even looks like that.
3:27
Yeah, I I want it all to stop. But but what has been
3:33
interesting is that a guy who dedicated his life to free
3:38
speech been a lot of questions about free speech this this
3:42
week. And we thought maybe that would
3:45
be a bit of a topic to delve into.
3:48
What does that mean? We we hit on that last week.
3:50
I, I maintain that the freedom of speech means the freedom of
3:55
compulsion of speech or prohibition of speech by the
3:58
government. You don't go to jail for saying
4:01
unpopular things. It doesn't 100% guarantee you to
4:09
escape consequences. And I thought, I thought it was
4:15
I, I really, I don't normally listen to podcasts.
4:18
I mean, sometimes I do, but I did this week.
4:21
And I just found it timely because you're, you kind of went
4:25
on and talked about like, hey, just 'cause you, just because
4:30
you've got the freedom to say something doesn't mean there's
4:33
not consequences. And there could be a company and
4:35
whatever. And then, you know, this this
4:38
whole Jimmy Kimmel thing, which I'm sure we'll delve into, but I
4:41
just, I did think it was timely that you talked about that.
4:46
And, you know, obviously this company, I don't think he's
4:48
done, but they've suspended him. And I don't know, I saw today
4:52
that Iger and some of the top folks are like, they want to
4:56
bring him back, but they want him to dial back the, you know,
5:00
the temperature. But I don't know.
5:02
I'm, you know, I don't like Jimmy Kimmel.
5:06
I'm not sad that he's off there, but I didn't watch him anyways.
5:09
I don't care what the guy says. And honestly, I was, I mean, the
5:14
little I think of him, I kind of figured what he would say about
5:18
the situation would have been much worse.
5:20
So when I, when I heard his quote, I was kind of like, OK, I
5:24
mean, I, I expected something more egregious from him anyways,
5:27
because I think he's, you know, I don't, I don't regard him
5:31
highly to begin with, but I think it's absurd.
5:37
But you know, it's love to dig into with you because like, you
5:42
know, like Ted Cruz said, I sent you that article about Ted Cruz.
5:44
I'm with Ted. Like that FCC guy sounds like
5:48
he's in the mafia, you know, saying, oh, well, we could do
5:51
this the easy way or the horrible.
5:52
Like what? But then the other piece of me
5:57
is like, we're the guts of this employer because like, I mean,
6:04
the minute oh, we're a little scared we're going to back the
6:07
bus over our star night time performer.
6:11
It's like there's no courage from the company either, you
6:13
know, because honestly, I mean, like, OK, this guy runs his
6:16
mouth off at the FCC. Yeah, I'd like to see the legal
6:20
basis for all this, you know? But it's like there's a knee
6:25
jerk from the company, too. Yeah.
6:28
Well, OK. So a couple things.
6:30
I do think that the company has the right to fire the guy if
6:34
it's not good business. Sure.
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And you know, where that would usually play out is if you say
6:40
something stupid and people don't like it and your ratings
6:43
tank, you get fired. That's the kind of thing I'm
6:45
talking about. The the free speech problem with
6:48
Jimmy Kimmel is not the company firing.
6:52
The free speech problem with Jimmy with Jimmy Kimmel was the
6:55
pressure put on him by the FCC. That was blatantly illegal.
6:59
In my mind. That's exactly what the 1st
7:02
Amendment is designed to prevent.
7:05
Again, two individuals on their own behalf.
7:08
You know, somebody might not like what you see and like
7:11
whatever. It's the government's action in
7:14
this that I thought was outrageous.
7:15
So I want to pick apart a couple things that you said.
7:18
I've got a couple responses. The cowardice of the company.
7:25
That's a valid point, except this was a business decision for
7:29
them. If they had litigated this and
7:32
gone to court, they would have won.
7:34
But you know, what they would have done in the process of
7:36
winning is spend a lot of money. Sure, but they're a journal.
7:41
But but at the heart of the network is journalism
7:45
supposedly, right? So like, I mean, obviously
7:48
Jimmy's not a journalist. Yeah, he's not a journalist.
7:52
I I would hope that they would have defended honestly, in that
7:56
sense, I'm more disappointed by some of the other media outlets
8:01
that have rolled. I mean, this is the Pat.
8:03
This is, I mean, if I'm going to gripe about something, it's this
8:06
pattern. It's not just the FCC guy.
8:09
Trump does this all the time and he sends these memos out that he
8:14
any of these tweets out or whatever fake thing that he
8:18
uses, you know, that so and so needs to be fired.
8:21
And that's what happened. That FCC guy read the tweet or
8:26
whatever It was like, oh, the boss wants to.
8:29
You know, I thought it was interesting.
8:31
It was just the same week, right, that the $15 billion
8:37
lawsuit against The New York Times was laughed out of court
8:42
by a judge. And you know, The thing is that
8:46
the New York Times wasn't going to back down.
8:48
Yeah, you, you know what I mean. And the Wall Street Journal
8:51
didn't. I mean, you know, and I think in
8:53
some of those lawsuits, it's like, like anything, I mean,
8:56
some have merit and some don't, but you know, they're just
9:00
firing off lawsuits one after the the other.
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And then I, I don't see the value in that.
9:05
I, you know, I don't know if I don't know if what this FCC
9:09
Yahoo said on a podcast is illegal, but it's stupid.
9:14
And I, and I think here's my thing, I feel like some in the
9:21
right that are doing this stuff. It's like, I, I just want to
9:27
shake some of these people because it's like you're
9:29
overplaying your hand. Like, I mean, if somebody said
9:33
something like if Jimmy Kimmel said, oh, he deserved to die,
9:37
there wouldn't be anybody defending the guy.
9:39
You know, it. Like if somebody said something
9:42
reprehensible, you know, there's going to be consequences with
9:46
that. But I feel like when you
9:49
overplay against something like this, you kind of denigrate the
9:58
impact of the actually more egregious statement.
10:01
I mean, if everything is like, oh, they can't say anything,
10:04
like not every statement is the same.
10:06
And, you know, I, I, so I think it kind of lessens the
10:10
egregiousness of some of what really is ugly.
10:14
But just because you can rattle the Sabre, I think is a horrible
10:21
precedence because, you know, and Ted Cruz alluded to it too.
10:24
I mean, OK, she goes on the other foot.
10:27
President AOC and Fox News gets revoked because, you know,
10:33
they've got a conservative viewpoint.
10:34
I mean, be very careful what the hell you wish for.
10:37
Yeah, I I completely agree. I'll tell you where I really
10:41
kind of lost it this week. You know, I'm no paragon of
10:45
virtue. And I I think I was on the right
10:48
side of history of this one the minute it happened and I heard
10:51
about it, my post on Facebook was political violence of any
10:54
kind is unacceptable, right? Like, I, I think I'm in the
10:57
right on that. But it was chilling and scary to
11:01
me to hear what JD Vance said it in terms of that kind of
11:06
overplay in the hand. And, you know, well, you, you
11:09
know, if anybody's disrespectful, I don't want to
11:10
quote him directly, But and then he went on to say, you know,
11:14
call them out on it. That's fair.
11:17
And then call their employer. And I thought, man, that just
11:22
feels like East Germany to me. What the hell?
11:26
Well, I mean, I, I guess the flip side to that is there's a
11:29
lot of, I don't know who, but I don't have a quote for you, but
11:34
like, you know, the flip side, you know, of people protesting
11:40
and hey, go harass people at a restaurant and go, you know, I'm
11:44
with you. I don't think it's a productive
11:47
use of time. But I get also, I mean, JD
11:51
Vance, there's probably a little more to that emotion to based
11:56
on, you know, his friendship with the Yeah, I don't know.
11:59
I mean, I guess I'm just saying like, you know, just don't know
12:03
what all this gets you other than what's crazy to me is it's
12:07
like, and you, you know, I don't know if you said this, maybe
12:11
another friend of mine said no, I think you said this like, you
12:14
know, I want to, I want the next administration to move a little
12:16
bit to the right, then I want the next one to move a little
12:18
bit to the left. Like, I don't want to move
12:21
mountains each time, but what's going to happen is they're going
12:25
to play, they're going to overplay the card over and over
12:27
and over again. AOC is going to be our next
12:29
president and the pendulum is going to go 180° to the left.
12:35
And then everybody's going to get pissed at her and it's going
12:38
to go, you know, even further. I I almost wonder, like, are we
12:43
in a area where the pendulum is going to just be zinging at
12:48
lightspeed in between two polar opposites every election?
12:53
Well, what it requires to push back for you.
12:56
You're right. That's exactly my fear.
12:58
I've said this over and over again as we've talked about
13:00
this, especially as regards the consolidation of presidential
13:04
power under Trump. You know, I hate it because I
13:07
hate Trump, but I hate it because it scares the hell out
13:11
of me to pack that kind of power in a unitary executive because I
13:16
don't trust my side with the keys to the Ferrari anymore than
13:20
I trust your side. And you know, our dad used to
13:25
say, and I got to say, I think he was spot on with this,
13:30
gridlock is not a bad thing. It really isn't like that.
13:35
There's inertia in our government.
13:38
You know, you can spin this the way you want.
13:40
You can talk about the swamp and all of this, the deep state, or
13:44
you can say we have strong solid institutions that are designed
13:50
to be responsive to the will of the people in the form of
13:54
presidential elections. But there's a little bit of
13:57
gravity behind it and it doesn't move overnight.
14:00
When it does flip overnight, the, the, the whiplash is bad
14:04
for all of us. I don't trust politicians in
14:08
general with that kind of with, with, with that kind of ability
14:13
to to move the needle and just don't think it's good.
14:17
Yeah, well. I mean, but you know, those
14:19
people will be like, well, we have a broken government.
14:22
They can't get anything done. It ain't broken.
14:24
That's how they designed it. They designed it to make it
14:27
really hard to pass a bill. I mean, like try amending the
14:30
Constitution. That is a super hard thing to do
14:33
and I and I purpose and it's good.
14:35
I. Don't want this to sound like
14:37
I'm clapping back at you, but when we began down this, if you
14:43
roll the clock back a year or more ago when we were first
14:45
started this before the election, one of the things that
14:49
you talked a lot about being attractive about Trump was the
14:54
kind of blow up the not in an explosive, violent sort of way,
15:00
in a figurative sort of way. You're going to hear a lot of
15:03
disclaimers from me these days, but I, I mean, I think that's
15:07
something that you vocalize that you that you wanted.
15:10
And I don't want to pig you down, but if I said that a
15:13
little bit of a little bit of inertia in government isn't as
15:18
bad as you feared. Well, I mean, I don't know, I
15:23
mean, I kind of want it both ways.
15:25
I want you to blow it down, but I want you to do the crap I want
15:29
you to do. I didn't like, you know, and I I
15:32
did. I'll go back to the budget
15:34
thing. Like I loved the the ideals of
15:39
of doge and let's turn this $7 trillion budget into a $5
15:43
trillion budget and erase the deficit.
15:45
I love that. And that was a pipe dream and it
15:47
was never going to happen because you give somebody the
15:49
keys to the Ferrari and they're going to drive 150 miles an
15:51
hour. You know, like you said, that's
15:54
the disappointing thing. And and it's just like AI don't
15:57
know, watching this FCC idiot. It's just like a slow motion
16:02
train wreck in action. Like you're just, you don't know
16:06
how stupid you are. Like you're burning through this
16:11
political capital and you're just going to piss it away and
16:14
you're going to piss all these people off and they're going to
16:18
ram it down your throat. I, you know, it's kind of the, I
16:21
don't know, you'd get a lot more sympathy if you just let all
16:27
the, if you just turn the other cheek and you let all these
16:30
jerks run their mouth. And Jimmy, hey, you know, let
16:35
him run his mouth. Those people are going to piss
16:37
people off. And and what you've done now is
16:40
you've taken a guy like if you would have just let that idiot
16:44
as in the Kimmel idiot, not the FCC idiot, but you know, clarify
16:49
the idiots here. But if you let Kimmel run his
16:52
mouth, he never said anything in response to it.
16:55
Who knows, he might have 'cause this himself.
16:58
Well. You know, I, I think you man, I
17:00
think you raised a really good point about the FCC got this is
17:03
going to sound stupid when I describe what I was thinking,
17:06
but I had about a three-week period in 2016 where I, I, I
17:17
will admit that I was surprised that Trump beat Clinton.
17:22
And then, you know, you look at look at a little deeper and not
17:26
that surprised, right. And then I thought, you know,
17:29
this guy gets manipulation of the media.
17:32
He gets I've I've said before, he's charismatic in a lowercase.
17:37
See, like I can't stand him kind of way.
17:39
But I mean, he you know, he knows what he's doing right.
17:42
And I thought if this guy had wanted to be the next Lincoln or
17:48
Roosevelt for a really divided country, he's not bound by a
17:54
conscience that's particularly anchored to a specific set of
17:58
moral principles. He could have, he could have
18:01
said, and now is the time to bring the country back together.
18:05
You know, everybody's with him. He could have brought the whole
18:07
country along. And I thought maybe that's what
18:10
he would do. That would be the like the TV
18:14
like that would be the but they would have been a genius move.
18:17
And I think he could have done it.
18:18
I think he has if he if he chose to do it, he could have done
18:23
that. But you realized within
18:26
literally within days that he's not capable of operating without
18:34
an enemy to bounce shit off of. Well.
18:38
You know, to me it's, it kind of highlights the genius and
18:44
whether you're a Christian or not, if you study Jesus's
18:48
ministry, it really kind of highlights the genius of his
18:53
approach. Like there is strength through
18:57
weakness. The, the, the, the value of
19:02
vulnerability and, you know, not overplaying your cards, you
19:07
know, being, you know, you're riding into town on a donkey.
19:12
That was how Jesus approached it.
19:15
And, and his impact was exponentially more powerful.
19:20
You can force anything through, but it's not going to have the
19:23
same impact. And, you know, and I, yeah, you
19:27
make good point. Like, I, I like the fact that
19:31
there was a forcefulness and a fighting spirit because my
19:34
frustration has been maybe not so much the fighting spirit, but
19:39
like, they never get anything accomplished.
19:42
So I thought, OK, here's a guy who's going to fight and he's
19:44
going to get something accomplished.
19:45
But what you got is a lot of bluster and not a lot of action.
19:49
And I, I just think, yeah, to your point, walk in much softly,
19:55
more softly and carrying a big step.
19:57
It just I can't speak now. But well, yeah, I do, you know,
20:03
and again, I'm I'm trying to devolve into Trump, but like
20:06
this, there's a. There's like a Greek tragedy
20:09
thing there. You know, think about this and
20:12
you know, you'll find a lot of liberals, you find a lot of
20:16
moderate Democrats liberals, but a lot of people that would that
20:21
would say even if they kind of groaned saying it, that
20:24
Operation Warp Speed was pretty incredible, right?
20:27
It like it like even begrudgingly, you know, you're
20:29
like, well, yeah, I mean, that was that was pretty amazing.
20:33
And yet because there's people that like are anti vaxxers like
20:38
now he's like distancing so helps himself from like that
20:42
would have been like a crowning achievement.
20:44
He should have taken credit for that but has largely not because
20:50
it's unpopular with the anti vax crew.
20:54
You know it. Well, but I, I mean, I contend
20:57
again that it's like all this stuff, like what side of the
21:02
political aisle you're on an issue has nothing to do with the
21:06
issue. It's all got to do with the guy
21:08
in charge. Because if Trump had won the
21:11
next term and they started implementing the vaccine, every
21:16
Democrat would have been an anti vaxxer.
21:18
Well, this is the Trump vaccine. We don't want the Trump vaccine.
21:20
We'll, But because Biden was pushing it, all the Republicans
21:23
say it's like, it's just nonsense, you know?
21:26
Well, there's certainly some truth to that.
21:28
I just like it. It's just like baffling to me.
21:33
Like, why doesn't he? I would have bragged about that.
21:37
I that's the kind of thing that if you wanted to unite the
21:40
country, he's had some real opportunities.
21:45
I literally think that he doesn't know how to function if
21:49
he doesn't have a foil to bounce something off of.
21:53
When he gets to ran thing, a lot of times he still talks about,
21:56
you know, how he beat Obama in the election.
21:59
But I mean, he's an old man. I mean, gosh, why?
22:03
Why are we hiring 80 year olds to do this job?
22:05
I mean, nothing against 80 year olds. 80 year olds are
22:07
wonderful. But.
22:08
Well, AOC is about my son's age and so you're going to have an
22:12
opportunity to vote for somebody this next go around.
22:17
Yeah, well, and then, you know, I want to when she's president,
22:22
you know, I want to call up this FCC guy and say you did this.
22:26
You know, when there a Biden, the Biden sticker that went
22:31
around that was viral, I did that, I did that, I did that,
22:34
this sticker. And when you get that FCC guy I
22:36
did that pointed AOC. You you might want to set a
22:41
chair for the FCC guy next to FBI Director Patel.
22:48
I now, OK, I loved the theater of watching him go off on the
22:55
'cause you know what The So that's another, and it's not
22:58
related to a free speech topic, but these Senate hearings.
23:02
I mean, what the hell is the point of these things?
23:05
It's such nonsense. I mean, they're asking the right
23:10
or the left. They're asking questions.
23:13
They don't want to. Know the answer to the question.
23:14
They don't want an answer. It's like a lecture theater, so
23:19
I actually enjoyed watching Cash give it back to some of these
23:22
Yahoo's. Have you read the Epstein files?
23:26
Have you looked at the files that are on the desk?
23:29
That doesn't sound theatrical to me.
23:31
That sounds like a kind of a legitimate question.
23:35
Well, I'm just saying there was a lot, I don't know if you, I
23:39
watched a lot of the interchange back and forth and it's just all
23:44
these gotcha moments back and forth and nobody's.
23:47
Oh, totally. And you know, it's funny, you
23:49
don't see this, but look for a wide angle camera on those rooms
23:55
when that's going on. Because the way it works is the
23:58
senator who's got their time is sitting in their chair and
24:02
they're, you know, pinning him to the wall and calling him a
24:07
bad hunting dog. And and meanwhile every other
24:10
chair is empty because the other ones are out there having lunch
24:13
or the smoke or whatever. You know what?
24:16
It's funny because I worked for a guy for a little while, my
24:20
last company, who was a retired 4 star general.
24:22
You met him. He'd been the vice commandant of
24:25
the Marine Corps. Great guy, a really good dude.
24:29
And but he was telling we were eating dinner one night on a
24:33
trip somewhere and he was telling me about testifying
24:36
before Congress, which I'm like, you know, we're eating it like
24:39
Chili's. And he's telling me about the
24:42
war story about testify before the Senate.
24:45
And I'm thinking, well, that's interesting.
24:47
But he, but he said it's so unsettling because you're there,
24:52
you've done all this prep and you're talking and you look
24:55
around the room and nobody's paying attention to a damn word
24:58
anybody's saying. I mean, they're all like,
24:59
everybody's shuffling around, staffers are walking around.
25:03
They don't care what the hell you're talking about.
25:04
You know, And then it's just it's turned into these sound
25:07
bites. It's all like on YouTube Shorts
25:10
and Facebook Shorts and all this stuff.
25:12
And it's like, I almost feel like they shouldn't televise
25:16
that crap. Like, if you want to have a
25:17
hearing, don't tell about you. Like, neither side ought to be
25:20
grandstanding. Like, what's the point of that?
25:23
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's pretty unseemly,
25:27
but YouTube's algorithm has figured out that I really like
25:30
watching 32nd clips of Hakeem Jeffries or Cory Booker going
25:38
Cory Booker. Interchange was good.
25:40
Or when he told Adam Schiff he was a buffoon.
25:44
I thought that was pretty good. So it's fun to watch, but it's
25:47
funny. But you bring up a good point
25:50
because I'm sure on your feed it's like Adam Schiff sticks to
25:54
Cash Patel. I'm reading my feed and it's
25:57
like Cash Patel sticks it to Adam Schiff.
25:59
Like it's the same conversation but it's spin either way
26:02
depending on your feed, you know?
26:04
So this would be a fun thought experiment.
26:06
Let's exchange YouTube logins for a week.
26:11
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
26:14
Well, now in Full disclosure, you would get what my kids get
26:18
worn out with. It's a lot of airplanes.
26:19
So there's that. It may not be that.
26:22
And you'd be all sailboats and British woman who cooks
26:28
potatoes. And yeah, it's that would
26:32
actually be a a nice fun light episode when we're sick of the
26:37
death match. Well, I mean, I I texted you
26:40
like, I don't think this is going to be that good of a
26:42
podcast. We're not probably going to
26:43
disagree that much. I mean, the, the main topic, I
26:48
think I'm in violent agreement with you.
26:51
There's probably different parameters we may differ on, but
26:54
I mean, but it's it what is fascinating is like the reason I
27:00
don't like it. Well, I mean, I think we both
27:03
objectively view freedom of speech as a, as a critical
27:07
element, but I feel like the part that pisses me off the most
27:11
about it is they are just equipping the other side.
27:14
Now I think that's a different, you know, there's a different
27:18
core anger that you have. But I mean, and, and I'm not
27:23
saying that like infringing on free speech alone isn't bad
27:27
enough, but I, I just feel like it's AI feel like it's friendly
27:30
fire. It's like, dude, do we need
27:33
this? I mean, come on.
27:34
Well, look, I, my outrage does tend to be more of the, you
27:40
know, kind of on principle, but I can completely relate to what
27:43
you're saying because I think about this a lot.
27:45
And I talk about this with, with my left side friends.
27:50
You know, I'm, I have a hard time getting past some of the
27:55
self-inflicted wounds on the Democrat party's part, right.
27:59
And go back to 2016 and the the really botched attempt to stifle
28:07
Bernie Sanders in pursuit of the coronation of Hillary Clinton.
28:12
Well, how'd that work out for us?
28:17
I mean, counterfactual is easy to argue, but given the way that
28:21
Bernie Sanders speaks to some of the same outrage that propelled
28:24
Trump to the White House, if the debate had been Sanders versus
28:28
Trump, I think it's much more of a coin flip.
28:32
And yet Hillary Clinton embodied the institutionalist things that
28:38
drive people nuts. And that was just a colossal
28:43
miss. Obviously, Obviously, the, the,
28:49
how we wound up with Joe Biden run for a second term.
28:52
I, I, I don't, I don't see any that has to have contributed
28:57
more to Trump's victory than any other thing.
28:59
I'm not saying that he doesn't, that Joe Biden was the was the
29:05
person running for president up until the summer.
29:08
Yeah, but I mean, the reason he won I again, it's back to my
29:12
pendulum theory. I mean he but Biden won.
29:15
Biden would never won probably the first time if it wasn't if
29:19
there was a legitimate, not a legitimate, but if there was
29:22
like a candidate on the right that didn't piss everybody off.
29:26
I mean, most of the people I, I mean, I don't know about, I
29:28
can't quote it, but I would have bet that a big percentage of the
29:32
people who voted for Joe Biden when he won, we're not like Joe
29:36
Biden fans. They were, they just, they want
29:38
anybody but Trump. And they're all kinds of signs
29:40
like anybody but Trump, you know?
29:42
There's a well and so that's a population there.
29:46
There's another interesting population if you look at
29:48
counties that went in three consecutive elections, Trump,
29:53
Biden, Trump. Yeah, that's an interesting
29:56
phenomenon too. I was thinking and I researched
30:00
a little bit, but I feel like some of this overplaying it
30:06
would. It reminds me of, I don't know
30:07
if you remember, November 4, 2004.
30:11
George W Bush says, I earned political capital in the
30:15
campaign, and now I intend to spend it.
30:18
And then that was kind of like the beginning of the end of his
30:23
popularity, his presidency, because then he started doing
30:25
all this crap and pissed everybody off.
30:27
And I feel like that's where we're at.
30:30
Like people think that they have capital that they can spend it
30:33
like that sucker that tank goes empty quick and it doesn't fill
30:37
back up. Yeah, well, I I've thought this
30:40
a lot. And, you know, again, we could
30:42
differ and you you could find as wide a spectrum if you look over
30:46
Trump voters as you would. But I would argue that there's a
30:49
pretty sizable chunk that weren't voting for Trump.
30:54
They were voting against Harris, against the perception of the
30:59
Democrats that they were feckless and incompetent.
31:03
And, you know, if you vote for somebody because they're the
31:07
least bad option, that does not really constitute a mandate.
31:13
Yeah, well, you know, this sounds anti anti American, I
31:17
suppose. But you know, we talked about
31:19
voter ID law and I, I know this is a there were, this goes back
31:24
into the whole racism and everything else.
31:27
I'm not trying to advocate for undefensible positions, but I
31:31
wish there would be some type of way to make sure people actually
31:34
knew what the hell they were voting for.
31:36
I mean, it's just turned into like a either a popularity
31:39
contest or, you know, it's like a roulette wheel.
31:43
I mean, what percentage of the population that votes actually
31:48
is voting for something other than just a, you know, and I
31:52
and, and a feeling an impossible thing to regulate.
31:55
I'm not suggesting it should be, but.
31:57
You know, it's interesting. I I agree with you.
32:01
I agree with you that I wish there was something like that.
32:03
I agree with you that it's untenable, and it's one of those
32:07
things that got, you know, completely poisoned by its
32:11
utilization after reconstruction is a tool to oppress black
32:15
people. Yeah, totally.
32:16
But the idea of, you know, is there a way?
32:20
It's interesting. I've known smart and thoughtful
32:23
people on both sides who have kind of longed for more civic
32:29
literacy in a way. And, you know, a pole test is
32:34
probably not going to get a lot of ciders, but, you know, are
32:39
there other ways other than a than a barrier to entry?
32:43
You know, how are we doing with teaching civics in school?
32:47
I mean, I don't know, it's been a long time since I was in
32:49
school. And I know that we can hardly
32:51
keep, we can hardly teach kids to read and write and do math.
32:55
So, you know, maybe that's not on the top of the priority list,
32:59
but my gosh, it should be. Is there are there other ways to
33:05
well and OK, so if we're confessing shortcomings of our
33:08
side, this is going way off on a tangent, but I want to get back
33:12
to what you said about kind of civic education.
33:16
One of my frustrations with the left, honestly the the off the
33:24
railsness of cancel culture that reached a peak a few years ago.
33:32
Look, if somebody was genuinely a sexual abuser, have no
33:36
sympathy, to hell with them. Harvey Weinstein, rot in jail, I
33:40
don't care. But there have been instances
33:45
when mere accusation unfounded have been enough to derail
33:51
careers that that's just as abhorrent to me as kind of what
33:55
I'm seeing on the right right now.
33:57
One of the things that I think was a real mistake in that
34:01
process. A baby out with the bathwater,
34:04
the politicization of our history.
34:08
And look, our history is complicated and we shouldn't
34:13
gloss over it. But on its worst day, on its
34:17
worst days, the United States of America, on its worst days, like
34:21
at Antietam with hundreds of thousands of people dying for
34:26
the worst cause in history, right.
34:28
On our worst day, the contribution of the United
34:31
States of America virtually inventing the idea of large
34:36
scale representative democracy. It's important and it matters
34:40
and it's something to be proud of.
34:42
And I think that's not incompatible with saying that
34:45
we've also done some really stupid and horrible things that
34:48
we got to reckon with. And so I, I guess this is kind
34:53
of like a mini rant, but this is a place where the left I think
34:56
is really I, I, I think talk about squander advantage.
35:01
I'm all for looking full in the eye the shortcomings of our
35:07
society, the mistakes that we've made and slavery being the the
35:11
most obvious, but not the only of those kind of inherent
35:16
problems that we've had, the mistakes that we've made.
35:19
But on our worst day, we're still a beacon to the world that
35:22
has sparked a change that has reverberated around the world.
35:27
And then not be able to talk about that with with pride and
35:30
hope is is sad. Yeah.
35:33
Well, and it's, I don't know, Yeah.
35:36
You hope that there's like a balance thing like I want a kind
35:40
of when I talked about vulnerability, I'd like a
35:42
vulnerable view of our country when it's expressed in history.
35:47
Like to your point, like we had this, we've got this ideal that
35:51
we've been pushing, but from the start it was flawed because
35:54
we're all humans and we're all flawed and, and there's issues
35:57
with it and it doesn't work and it even doesn't work today.
35:59
But like there's a reason why everybody wants to come here.
36:02
People aren't dying to get to Belgium, you know, they're dying
36:06
to get here. Why is that?
36:08
Yeah. I mean.
36:09
Technically there are people dying to get across the
36:11
Mediterranean to immigrate from Africa to Europe.
36:14
But no, you're, you're, you're 100% right.
36:17
And and those aren't incompatible statements to say
36:20
that we've done horrible and dumb things and that we've still
36:23
got problems that we need to reckon with, but yet still.
36:27
Well, and again, that back to the that's what I find objection
36:31
about this shut down cancel culture on either side and and
36:35
the Republicans are the the right is going to screw it up if
36:39
they go too far to the right, too far to cancel on their own.
36:42
Like what makes America great again?
36:46
Or what makes it make it makes America great?
36:50
That we never lost is like it. Is a country that you can
36:54
actually, hey, we've done bad things, we've messed up.
36:58
If you're North Korea, you can't say, well, the government of
37:01
Kim, Illinois Sung, they've done some good things, but they've
37:03
really screwed up some things. They didn't go over too well.
37:06
Well, I mean, look at Putin and Russia and, yeah, China.
37:11
The inability of China to countenance its mistakes means
37:16
that you're constantly doubling down on your worst actions ever,
37:20
right? You know, like, no, we're not
37:23
going to turn loose at Taiwan. We're going to go get it
37:25
eventually. Like like what?
37:28
Really like why I? Yeah, it's, I don't know.
37:32
I, I think part of it too is just, I don't know what I hope
37:38
for in our leadership is that they are introspective enough to
37:42
look inward and be like, hey, I, I got this right.
37:44
I didn't get this right. But honestly, I don't think I, I
37:47
don't know of a leader that we've had.
37:51
I don't know that. I don't know what national
37:54
leader we've had that has been able to be that vulnerable.
37:58
I mean, I don't care who has been president.
38:00
Like nobody's been particularly like, well, these are some of my
38:04
shortcomings. You're like, Nope.
38:06
No, but wouldn't you say? I mean, here's old guy nostalgia
38:11
for the past. I felt like both George W Bush
38:16
and Obama came a lot closer to that than what we've had in
38:20
Trump and Biden. I disagree.
38:22
I I, I remember a press conference in general with
38:26
George W and they're like, do you have any rats?
38:29
Nope. OK, You know, I mean, and
38:34
Obama's the same man, You're right.
38:35
I think probably if you had a dialogue with either one of
38:38
them, I'm they strike me as the kind of people that might
38:42
acknowledge some failures of things, but but they're not
38:45
going to say that because you're so like you got to be on all the
38:48
time with all the. I think maybe part of my opinion
38:52
is colored, you know, a lot of things I've heard W say after
38:56
the White House, it seems like he's been a lot more, a lot more
39:02
thoughtful about that, about that stuff.
39:05
And you know that I don't know, I've never heard him say that
39:09
there weren't mess weapons of destruction, and we shouldn't
39:12
have invaded a different country, Iraq, but you know.
39:17
Well, part of, you know, and part of me just likes to see
39:19
like him getting along with Obama and Clinton.
39:23
And I don't know, there's a part of me that wants to think that
39:26
they all have some level of respect for each other.
39:29
And I don't know why that's important to me, but but I did
39:33
laugh, you know, I don't know if you heard the quote from George
39:35
W after the the first Trump inauguration, he gets done
39:39
speaking and George W walks over to the Clintons and the Obamas
39:43
and his dad and everybody. He's like, oh, that's some weird
39:46
shit. I feel like Pete Hegseth is
39:52
dying to have some kind of a not a big war, but some kind of war
39:56
that he can be in charge of. I think he just is itching for
39:59
that. I.
40:01
Don't know, I haven't gotten that sense but.
40:04
They changed the name of the department.
40:08
Well, I honestly think to some degree you could make the case
40:14
that that might reduce your international involvement.
40:22
If the sole purpose is to wage a war, that's a different mission
40:26
than, you know, defending and peacekeeping.
40:30
So. I mean, I can we get that at a
40:32
cheaper price? I, I guess my point is just, and
40:37
I don't know if this is their strategic viewpoint, but I kind
40:42
of view, I mean, I, I would say that's one thing I liked about
40:46
the, the Cheney doctrine. It's like we shouldn't be
40:50
involved unless there is a bona fide national interest and then
40:54
we ought to blow the living daylights out of somebody and it
40:57
ought to be a war. Like half ass defense shouldn't
41:01
be a thing that I don't know that they're going to go down
41:05
the path. But I like that that concept of
41:08
high lethality only used when you really got to go to battle.
41:14
Yeah, See that I I could get behind that.
41:17
That makes sense to me. I think though that it
41:21
ultimately becomes pretty darn expensive because I mean, we've
41:25
utilized the military in a lot of non military roles through
41:29
the years and either got to not do that or you got to come up
41:34
with something else. You've got to come up with a
41:37
hybrid that's the United States peacekeeping people or something
41:42
like that. You know what I mean?
41:43
Like separate actual warring from kind of the the hybridized
41:51
disaster relief human, you know what I mean?
41:54
Like, and I think those things are valuable, but I could see
41:57
saying, no, that's a different job than the military.
42:02
Well, honestly, you got to create something for that.
42:05
If you read about the proposal for a Demilitarized Zone in
42:09
Ukraine but staffed with contractors, I thought that was
42:13
a pretty interesting approach. Especially if you're, what's
42:16
that Eric Prince guy? Yeah, that's a great idea.
42:20
There's billions to be made on that deal.
42:22
Well, I'm just saying like, you know, that we need our lethal
42:27
warriors focused on, you know, making sure doing a security
42:32
job, you know? Well, OK, so let me approach it
42:36
from the liberal standpoint. Like I honestly, as you're
42:40
saying this, this makes more sense to me.
42:41
I could get behind that, but I would want to augment with a,
42:47
you know, the the peace force or something, you know what I mean?
42:50
Like. Or you have, you had the
42:53
contractor there and then you laid out.
42:56
And it's kind of my point of the way, I wish the administration
42:59
would deal with Putin, and they haven't.
43:01
And I'm not happy about it. But what I wish they'd do is,
43:03
hey, we're going to put a contractor there.
43:05
And you know what? If one of those guys gets
43:07
injured, AB 52 is going to come in and bomb the livid shit out
43:12
of all your forces. You know, like, there ought to
43:15
be like a back. The backup plan is, yeah, you're
43:18
going to get your ass kicked if you mess with our Peacekeeper.
43:21
Yeah, empower our peacekeep. Our peacekeepers are backed by
43:26
limitless force. You know, honestly, I'd circle
43:29
that back to what you said about I'm going to bring Jesus into
43:34
the military now. But but really that idea of and,
43:40
and I didn't say, as you said that I was nodding in agreement,
43:42
but I, I got sidetracked with that.
43:44
I completely agree with you. That power through strength of
43:49
like, no, I, I don't have to. I'm not going to get into the
43:54
down into the fight with you. I'm I'm just above it and I'm
43:57
can't be baited. You know what I mean?
43:59
Like, that is so powerful. And it's honestly part of the
44:04
thing about Trump. Well, it's a long list of things
44:08
that drive me nuts. But the petulance and the
44:12
fragility, you know, he is so he is so easy for people to flatter
44:18
and he is so easy for people to irritate.
44:22
And I think it's his weakness. Well, I think I think more, I
44:28
think it's a useful tool more to your point of, you know,
44:33
manipulation of the media to get his point across.
44:36
You know, I'm in a fain, I'm offended and then get everybody
44:40
talking about that. I think a lot of what he does is
44:43
trying to manipulate the the message to, to create a media
44:50
stir. I don't necessarily think all
44:52
that's good for the presidency, but I I think he's a media
44:56
manipulator. Plays the game.
44:58
Yeah, I, I have to say I the CEO sitting room.
45:04
Yeah, Yeah, you're right. The the the video of the CE OS
45:08
one by one kissing up, you know the one I'm talking about.
45:12
That was a little cringe. Which one's that I'll?
45:14
Find the link. It was.
45:17
It was like all the big players, they were seated at the cabinet
45:21
table and they literally like went around the room and we're
45:24
like, you're such a good president and you've done such
45:28
great things. Like 1 after the other.
45:32
It it, it was the most North Korea moment I've ever seen.
45:36
Oh, you're talking about the cabinet meeting?
45:39
No, it wasn't. The cabinet does that like
45:41
regular this was he assembled corporate CE OS and had him do
45:46
the same thing. You know, it was like, pass the
45:48
gavel and everybody say how, how, how remarkable.
45:52
You know, like, you know, again, it's like this camel thing.
45:54
It's like, does anybody have a, a trying to think of a better
45:59
term than testicle? But I mean, apparently not, you
46:01
know, I mean, I, you know what, it always reminds me, there was
46:05
this guy, I've told this story, but when I was in the military,
46:09
I was in this staff meeting one time, the Wing Commander of the
46:12
base, we're having this big inspection and they got all the
46:17
colonels sitting around the table and this guy, he's like,
46:20
we're having the inspector come in.
46:22
You so and so division, services division.
46:25
What grade are you going to get? We're going to get an
46:27
outstanding server. It goes to the next show.
46:29
Where are you getting? We're getting an outstanding
46:31
server. And the next guy, the next guy
46:32
there was this one guy, older guy, African American gentleman,
46:36
great dude. And he would, he would always,
46:40
he, he looked old. I mean, he's probably my age,
46:42
but at the time, you know, as a kid, he looked like this old
46:44
man. And he always had a cigar he was
46:47
chewing on. And he's leaning back in his in
46:50
his seat, you know, he's just like leaning back and all these
46:52
suck UPS are going around the room.
46:55
Oh, we're going to get an outstanding.
46:56
So we're going to get an outstanding Carl Mitchell.
46:58
What are you going to get? He leans up satisfactory and
47:02
leans back, you know, and then, you know, everybody's like
47:05
satisfactory, you know, like, how could you?
47:08
But you know, it's basically like a big flip the bird, like,
47:11
yeah, we're we're going to we're going to pass.
47:13
We'll be good, you know? And I just always think of that
47:16
like, where is the gonads of some of these people to be like,
47:20
yeah, you know, I think you're kind of a Jackass, you know,
47:23
like, nobody would say that because they're so worried.
47:26
But it's like, you think about the viral moment and how many
47:31
people you would be following you and worshipping you after
47:35
that, you know? But it's like people would not.
47:37
It's like people lack guts to do the right thing.
47:40
Yeah, well, I mean, I think. So not even the right thing,
47:45
maybe not the right thing like the guts, just the, you know,
47:48
and honestly, that's what I've liked about Trump is he's got
47:52
the guts to say what he thinks and do something.
47:54
And it's like, where are the other folks?
47:56
So they're ready to jump in. I'm looking for somebody with
47:59
some intestinal fortitude out there.
48:01
So Gavin Newsom baiting Trump does that.
48:04
That doesn't probably appeal to you because.
48:07
He's a goofball. Like, come on, give me somebody
48:10
that has, I mean. I think it's too bad because
48:13
what we're not going to get this next go round is we're not going
48:16
to get a debate between AOC and Trump that I'd.
48:20
That'd sell tickets right there. Yeah, well, it's been good
48:27
catching up on this and I, I do think that we're hopefully it's
48:30
not been terrible radio to listen to because I think that
48:35
we're not far away on this, but I also think that we're probably
48:37
not far away from the average American.
48:40
Yeah. You know, I, I don't know, it's,
48:44
it's a weird time. You see this, you see how hurt
48:47
people are by the assassination and I, I get that.
48:51
I don't think it's a time to dial back on our values of free
48:55
speech. Also think it's not the time,
48:58
you know, just because you can it, it's really probably not a
49:02
great time to just be an ass for being an ass sake.
49:06
And you know, wouldn't you like it if if everybody was a little
49:11
dignified about something, that's that's a horrible thing.
49:15
And also that this was a guy who stood up for free speech.
49:20
Right. Yeah, totally.
49:22
So. Did you see the guy that the day
49:27
after the assassination? I don't know if he'd accept it
49:30
or not, but Charlie had invited Van Jones was going to be on his
49:35
program. I thought that was.
49:36
Oh, no kidding. Yeah.
49:37
Wow. Wow, he Van Jones spoke here on
49:42
on campus couple years ago and I I went to the to the lecture.
49:46
It was really good. He's you know, I'll.
49:49
I'll take your. Word with the dream, smart guy.
49:52
What's that? I'll take your word for it.
49:56
Smart guy. All right, well, let's wrap.
49:59
We need to get. I tell you, we do have some
50:01
Epsteining to talk about before too long.
50:03
We've got to get back on that because you know what?
50:07
You know, this is still a thing and I, I'm not just trying to
50:11
beat a drum that's out there. I, I'm just bewildered that
50:16
there's just like flat refusal to do anything about it.
50:19
It is. It is really.
50:21
Well, and I mean, maybe, maybe we have a conspiracy episode
50:27
coming because there's a lot of conspiracies out there about
50:30
the. Kirk murder too.
50:32
Yeah, really. There's I just saw something
50:35
that popped up on my feed that he was seeing at a fast food
50:40
restaurant 30 minutes after the assassination.
50:43
Like, you know, there's all this.
50:45
I mean, it's like back to JFK. Like I've heard people call him
50:49
a Patsy. I'm like, OK, I've heard that
50:51
before. Yeah, I mean, even my temptation
50:57
to go down conspiratorial pathways.
50:59
You know, the thing about it is, I want to talk about this, not
51:03
in a disrespectful way about the fact of the guy's assassination
51:06
and murder and all of that. But if you're a CIA person and
51:11
you've got a beef with Kennedy as president who might win a
51:15
second term, there's a legitimate real thing that that
51:19
guy could do to you as president.
51:21
And assassinating him made that that he could not do that thing
51:24
to you, right? This was a guy who was entirely
51:30
just a public discussion figure, right?
51:33
He didn't have any power. There wasn't any.
51:35
There wasn't any a procedural benefit to anybody killing me
51:40
and everything to lose, like everything to lose.
51:44
You know, I, I don't. And and that's why, well, you
51:48
know, again, people want to look under rocks or whatever.
51:52
But you one of the things and we didn't talk about this and I
51:55
should have and the things that really bothered me from Trump on
51:58
down was this like, well, it's this vast liberal conspiracy to
52:01
kill the guy. Listen, listen, I get the mail
52:03
from the liberal conspiracy office.
52:06
I get the the emails and the texts from the Department of
52:11
Liberal Conspiracies. And nobody would have ever like
52:15
that. Just it's almost so dumb that it
52:18
doesn't offend me, but really, like there's a conspiracy out
52:22
there of I don't know if it was a liberal plot to kill the guy
52:27
rather than a disturbed individual.
52:30
It was it was a bad plan because not only was it a horrible
52:35
thing, it has not benefited any of the causes that any thought
52:40
they. Were well, I think, and I think
52:41
that's core to these conspiracy theories because my contention,
52:47
as I said before, it's some asshole with a gun is what
52:51
happened by the conspiracy theory that, you know, it's some
52:57
orchestrated event. Maybe it is.
52:59
And then that opens the question like why are they orchestrated
53:02
to your point, like what's the motive and everything else and
53:04
what's in it? And unfortunately, we are in a
53:08
country where there's a lot of assholes and a lot of them have
53:11
guns, unfortunately. No, I it's hard for me to see,
53:16
you know, what's the, what's the Latin expression, qui bono CUIBO
53:21
and who benefits. This was some kind of liberal
53:25
antifa conspiracy. Man, I wish I'd have been there
53:29
on that planning day to say not the way, like not doing you what
53:35
you want. Good grief.
53:37
In addition to being horrible. So all right, well, let's wrap
53:40
it. But it's good to good to catch
53:42
up. Yeah, sounds good.
53:46
Hey, thanks for joining us on this episode of Bourbon and Rum
53:48
Podcast. We hope you enjoyed it.
53:51
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