Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: The Most Disturbing Thing About Ted Bundy Had Nothing to Do With Murder

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Killer Thriller: The Most Disturbing Thing About Ted Bundy Had Nothing to Do With Murder · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey, everyone,
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Today we
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: are continuing our conversation with filmmaker Joe Berlinger, director of
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil, and Vile. In part one, we
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: explored the man behind one of the most notorious murder
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: spreees in American history and the challenges of bringing Ted
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Bundy's story to the screen. Today, we'll dive deeper into
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Bundy's psychology, the investigation, the women whose lives were forever
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: changed by his crimes, and what Joe learned after spending
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: years immersed in this case. Was there a moment during
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: filming where Zach's performance unsettled you or did he talk
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: to you about the psychological challenge just playing him?
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we didn't do a lot of I
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: think he nailed it tremendously. I mean, I had the
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: good fortune of doing the doc prior to the scripted movie,
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: so I truly was an expert, and we had a
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: lot of conversation, and the doc series hadn't yet come
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: out while I was shooting the movie, but I had
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: a whole in fact, we were doing the final editing,
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: and I was kind of doing double duty. I was
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: finishing off conversations with the killer, you know, giving notes
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: on cuts during prep of Extremely Wicked, and while while
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: we shot that and but the you know, but that
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  Speaker 3: allowed me to, like, you know, I gave them lots
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: of archival footage. I gave them, like, you know, some
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: rough cuts of the doc. You know. We As a director,
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: I don't like over rehearsing, like I don't know, I
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: like just you know, for me, rehearsals are on the
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: scripted side of things. I mean, because I'm mainly a documentarian,
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: I like to bring that aesthetic to it. I don't
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: like get things up on their feet and rehearse. And
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: I'm not precious about every word. I like improv. I like,
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: you know, on the day, really finding what works best
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: and not being overly locked into rehearsing something. You know,
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: others direct differently, every word has to be spoken, everything,
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: every mark has to be hit exactly the way they
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: thought about it three weeks ago, which is not criticizing
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: that style of filmmaking or anything in between. But I'm
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: much looser, so rehearsal for us really was just Lily,
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: Zach and I sitting around the table just talking about
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: these things, talking about character, talking about motivation, you know,
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: me teaching them a little bit about the story. And
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: so I think Zach really just absorbed the role in
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: a way that, Yeah, there was a there was a
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: number of times that it was like whoa, that's like
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: I think he was all in. You know. There's my
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: favorite shot in the movie is John Malkovich.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Plays the judge so brilliant.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: And this is why the film is called extremely wicked, shocking, evil,
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  Speaker 3: and bile because the real judge Coward, Edward Coward, who
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: was in that courtroom, and you even seen see just
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: going back to the like even the judge found him likable.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: It gave him great latitude to represent himself as he's yes,
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: as he's sentencing him, he's saying, Hey, you would have
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: made a great lawyer, you know. I mean all that
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: copy in there is verbatim copy from the trial.
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  Speaker 1: It's not like I cannot get over that.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like you would have made a great lawyer.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: You know, you're intelligent, harbor, no ill will towards you
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  Speaker 2: or something like that.
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  Speaker 3: You went the wrong way. I mean, this is the
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: effect he's had on people.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Take care of yourself, he said, exactly.
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  Speaker 3: My favorite shot is we do this long push into
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  Speaker 3: Zach's eyes as he's just still obfuscating. I mean, that's
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  Speaker 3: the other thing that character ees Bundy from other serial killers.
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  Speaker 3: Up until the day of his death. He obfuscated only
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  Speaker 3: only right towards the execution. Was he willing to give
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  Speaker 3: out information because he was trying to extend his life.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: But like you know, Dahmer, when he was finally caught,
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  Speaker 3: it was almost relieved. I showed conversation with the killer
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  Speaker 3: the Jeffrey Dohmer tapes, and this young lawyer, Wendy Patrickiss
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  Speaker 3: was able to extract from him because he was very contrite.
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  Speaker 1: At that point.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not excusing Dahmer or whatever. He did horrible things,
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  Speaker 3: but he actually was very contrite and gave a lot
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  Speaker 3: of details so that you know, they found human body
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  Speaker 3: parts and they needed to know who these people were,
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  Speaker 3: as gross as that is. And so he was willing
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  Speaker 3: to give upon arrest, give information to this young lawyer,
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  Speaker 3: and so they were able to identify a lot of
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  Speaker 3: the victims. Bundy just you know, obfuscated and denied up
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  Speaker 3: and almost up until his death and this shot where
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: I just see a zach Efron like we were all
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  Speaker 3: just like whoa like took our breath away as we're
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: pushing in on him and he's just denying, denying and
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  Speaker 3: talking about this is not me. So that was a
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: moment that really I felt he captured it. Yeah, you know,
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: but yeah, I thought he did an amazing job.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah he did, and Lily as well. Everyone.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Lily. I think Lily Collins is the great unsung
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: hero of the film. You know, Zach middle but I
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: think Lily was awesome, you know, and she got decent
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: notices or whatever, but Zach was the guy who got
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: all the attention. So I about that because I mean,
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: no one has to cry for Lily Collins because she's
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: gone on.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah she's doing great.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: Got onto amazing things. But you know, she should have
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: gotten a little more credit for a very difficult, really
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: good performance, you know.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was as well as the actress who played
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Carol Boone. Carol Boone, right, the one that then he married.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: I mean she was great Sculledaria.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she's.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: Such an attractive woman in real life that she was
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  Speaker 3: willing to make herself look like that too was very brave.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: You know, yes, I loved that. I loved that. She's
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: very very good.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So Bundy escaped from custody twice, and looking back today,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: that seems almost I mean, it seems unbelievable. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: how did that. It seems like he was given so
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: much freedom for a person on trial for such uniquely
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: violent crimes.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: And this is this is this is why when they
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: say why would you cast somebody like Zach who's charming
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: and good looking, then you're missing the whole point of
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  Speaker 3: the movie and the actual story. Because he in Colorado,
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  Speaker 3: he convinced the judge, because he was representing it was
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  Speaker 3: co counsel, and he convinced the judge to not keep
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: them in shackles, to wear street clothes, and give him
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  Speaker 3: access to the law library, where he noticed that the
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: window was open. He jumped out the window of a
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: Colorado courthouse. I mean, like, you can't make this stuff up.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: You really can't make it up.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: So much so that when I watched the film, I went,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: this has got to be maybe a little bit you know,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: theatrical here little dramatized, and the things in the courtroom.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: And then when I watched the doc I was aghast
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: at how identical they were in that regard.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, No, the thing I'm most there's very little invention
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: in Extremely Wicked. You know, there's a few moments, you know,
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: hacksaw never happened, the dog barking at him and being
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: freaked out never happened. Wait.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: You know what's really funny as you're talking about the dog,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: when I watched the dock documentary with my dog, she
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: kept barking at Ted when he would look in the lens.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: And this is my dog is like, she'll sleep all day,
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: you know, she's like not interested.
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  Speaker 1: And I just went I was so creeped out by that.
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  Speaker 3: Crazy. That's crazy. But those are those are a few.
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: Those are a few character inventions and whatnot. But for
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: the most part, you know, it's very authentic. And I
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: tried to infuse a lot of real archival footage into
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: the film, and that's been done to death now. But
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: you know, not that I invented it, but it's it's
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: now become very cliche to you know, have archival footage
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: in your Crime. At the end of the show, in
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: the credits, you see the crime, you see the real footage,
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: and again I wasn't the first one to do it,
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: but I wasn't the eight hundredth person. Right, Yes, very copied.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: Now I'm not saying copied by me, but it's a
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: little it's a little over. It's a little over, but
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  Speaker 3: you know, and and scenes if you compare archival footage
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: of the scene where like Ted rips up the indictment
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: in Florida and is giving to the Florida sheriff who
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: brings him in, if you look at the actual archival
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  Speaker 3: foot it's you know, I really, I really a very
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  Speaker 3: authentic feeling.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, that is one of those things that I again thought, Oh,
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  Speaker 2: there's no way that they let him stand next to
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  Speaker 2: the sheriff when he's stating, you know, the allegations or
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  Speaker 2: what he's being arrested for.
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  Speaker 1: I just it's like unbelievable, which.
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  Speaker 3: Is another reason I say to those who say you're glamorizing, No,
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  Speaker 3: this is the reality. Unfortunately, this is the truthful story.
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  Speaker 3: A charming, good looking guy. We can debate how good
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  Speaker 3: looking he is, but he had that impact on people
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  Speaker 3: that un likable and trusting, convinced judges to let them
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  Speaker 3: represent themselves, convince judges not to be in shackles, so
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  Speaker 3: he jumped out of the courtroom. I convince young women
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  Speaker 3: to show up in that courtroom in droves, not because
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  Speaker 3: they're like they're like into serial killers, but they thought
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  Speaker 3: he was innocent.
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  Speaker 1: Yep, yeap.
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  Speaker 2: Did he ever, Bundy ever strike you as sincere? I mean,
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  Speaker 2: his arrogance is striking, and it's it's very apparent. But
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  Speaker 2: did he ever was there ever a moment where he
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  Speaker 2: seemed sincere?
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  Speaker 3: It's hard to say, you know, I think people like
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: that literally have no empathy, and that's such a sick
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: human quality when you lack empathy, and you can only
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: do that to other people if you are completely devoid
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: of empathy. Yeah, and again, this woman, Dorothy Lewis, you know,
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: did a lot of you know, research on actually there's
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: a physical piece of the brain responsible for empathy that's missing,
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: and I believe, I believe in those theories.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So it's hard to say any emotion other than self
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: preservation and self aggrandizement are the only emotions they've it's
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: hard to say, yeah, they're sincere about anything. But I
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: spent I believe in getting victim approval and spending time
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: with victim. The story, so in fact, Lily Collins and
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: I went out to I don't want to say where,
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: you know, because I don't want to betray her comment.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: But the real is Kendall, which is actually a pseudonym,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: and her real daughter Mollie. You know, I wanted to
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: make sure they were happy with the script. Lily had
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: never met a real person before that she played because
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: she played so. Lily and I took a trek to
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: see them and spent a couple of days and it
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: was fascinating meeting. They gave us a handful of notes
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: on the script that they felt were inaccurate.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: That has to be here.
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  Speaker 2: I mean again, like no one, I'm sure this woman
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: she you never really recover from this sort of experience,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: but I would hope and I believe that things like
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: this have some at least a tiny bit of healing
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: for her, that there is care being taken.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: About it, and that you know, people feel her pain.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: I think they felt good about it. They came to set,
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: you know, they wanted to come to set, and I said,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: well I would There's very few scenes that I think
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: you should be around, maybe the happy days of the
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: early courtship. So they came came for a couple of
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: days and we shot some some of the more benign
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: stuff with them present when they were first meeting.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, oh.
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  Speaker 3: You were now I remember you were asking me whether
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: he's sincere, sincere right and so whether or not? So, Oh,
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: that's right, that's the point. So Mollie, the daughter, who's
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: now obviously an adult, has wonderful memories of her interactions
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: with Ted. He never creeped her out her. He thought
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: she was he was the greatest, he was. She was
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: a surrogate father. So whether or not she was objectifying
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: something that didn't exist, or whether or not, there truly
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: was a bond between the two. And he was a
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: nice guy at times. I mean, that's the scary thing
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: about is that we'll never know literally can be the
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: people next door. I mean, John Wayne Gacy was you know,
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: well liked in his neighborhood, through neighborhood parties, you know,
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: was the local politic rep for the I forget what
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Chicago or some.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah they're all merging together for the church amber.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: But but but Gaysey was you know well liked. Also
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: you know, horrible what he did. Oh, it's all horrible.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: You can't rank the horror.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: You really can't rank the horror.
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  Speaker 2: But what what do you what do you make of
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: his mother listening to the tapes, his the prison tapes
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: and then saying, let's have apple pie and ice cream?
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: That completely baffles me.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: It's just a woman in denial, denial, mother in denial,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, so, okay, let's talk about the Kyomega murders.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: They seem to be different from the earlier ones, the
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: earlier crimes because of just the sheer violence and the
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: court scene and extremely wicked.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: As you mentioned, it's really.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: We don't see the description of their It's like it's
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: almost unwatchable. It was one of the most uncomfortable and
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: I'm sure intentionally uncomfortable scenes in the film.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: So did something change with Ted by that point?
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: Or think? You know, I do believe that deep down,
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: these guys do want to ultimately get caught. And I
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: think he was just, you know, the good guy. I'm
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: going to convince you, I'm going to lure you. He
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: just was. He was just kind of losing it and
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: going on a killing spray. And I think I think
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: he was because he was getting sloppier and messier and
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: more psychologically fractured, because I think, you know, subconsciously he
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: was hoping to get caught.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Which is hoping to get caught, right, because I think they.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: All at the end of the day want want to
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: want it to end and be.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Caught and want the attention.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Perhaps, So going back to the kind of theatrics in
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the in the courtroom and the judge, So what is
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: that about his kind of support of him, Like, I can't.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I had such a hard time metabolizing all of that
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: as as real like what was going on there?
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think he I think he had a
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: he wanted to you know, not have any reversible error
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: on appeal. And the issue of self representation is something that, okay,
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: would be reversible error if somebody is somebody people, right,
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: I mean reversible error just to explain, means that if
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: a judge makes a mistake, that creates grounds for appeal.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: So he's being very cautious about not creating grounds for appeal. Okay,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: that winnable ground. I mean, you know, every many cases
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: get appealed, but you know, winnable grounds for appeal. So
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: I think I think that's part of it. I think
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: that era in courtrooms was a little looser in terms
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: of security, and in terms of things you would expect
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: to see now, I think that you're in the seventies,
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: there were a lot of new legal ideas being tested,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: and so doing things unusually was not unusual. For example,
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: for example, in New York State at this time it
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: became and elsewhere, but particularly in New York, which has
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: nothing to do with this case, not guilty by reason
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: of insanity became a very popular defense, and a lot
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: of people were spared going to death row but instead
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: went to homes for the criminally insane, more experimentation. But
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: that's why the story is so extraordinary, because there's that
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: was all I mean, of course, the condensation and you know,
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: a little bit of license, but basically a lot of
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: that dialogue is comes from courtroom transcripts. In fact, people
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: think the title is weird, and you know, it is
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: a little weird and doesn't quite roll off your tongue.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Tongue extremely wicked, shockingly evil and vile. But that's what
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Judge Coward said to him when he in that shot,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: that I was talking about that extreme pushing. You know,
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: your acts are extremely wicked, shockingly evil and vile. So
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: the judge demonstrated that while he's going to give latitude
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: to this guy, let him represent himself. You know, at
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: the end of the day, he knew what he had
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: to do, and he's right, sends the guy to death.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Because it is it's like he's almost making a mockery
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: of the you know, it's like his show.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: It's just it's just unfathomable today.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: So after that would not happen today for sure.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, after spending years of studying him.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: So do you just think that he was a psychopath?
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: What's your well, yes, of course he's a psychopath, but worse. Uh, yeah,
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: I know, he's you know, I'm fascinated by why people
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: do bad things, you know, in part because I had
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: bad things done to me and I turned out to
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: be a nice guy who makes films and raised daughters
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: who go to the Colombian Mit. You know, I didn't
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: turn into a psychopath. Fascinated why some people go off
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: the edge and others don't.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Do you think he felt remorse at all? Ever?
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: No, no, No, I think Dahmer felt remorse, but I
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: don't think Bundy felt remorse. Yeah, he lied up until
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: the day he died, you know, and he just you
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: just can't do these things to people and.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Have a lot of remorse, you know, right, right?
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Do you think in the final days before his execution
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: when he he began confessing to the murders, do you
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: think that he was finally telling the truth or was
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: he just still manipulating people?
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: Well? I think he was. I think both. He was
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: giving up useful information in the hopes that he would
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: he could prolong his life. Self very important to.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Him, yep. I mean, I think that's probably for most narcissists.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: That's a key piece.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: So after everything that you've learned about him, what's this
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: single you've sort of I think I know what you're
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: going to say, but I'll ask you anyway. The single
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: biggest lesson that people should take away from the Ted
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Bundy story, Yeah.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, I hate to be repetitive, but I made
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: the movie because my daughters didn't know who he was,
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: and I thought they should know. The basic lesson of
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: a Ted Bundy is that you know, just because people
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: look and act a certain way, he should not just
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: give them your trust. Trust needs to be hard earned.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: And the most important lesson is that people who do
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: evil in this world are the people you least expect.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: And most often trust, not the guy who emerges from
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: the shadow and you're like, oh God, I gotta run
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: because that's an evil person. That's not how evil works.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: Whether you know. I did a show about Bernie Madoff.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: You know, he came across as very o buncular, like
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: a great guy, but he was taking widows money and
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: just taking it in a Ponzi scheme. You know, he
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: bankrupted Eli Vizl, a Holocaust survivor. I mean, he did
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: such horrible things, but you would think he's you know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: your great uncle who just is so caring and loving,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: you know, right. You know, the Catholic Church obviously has
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: a massive problem with you know, you know, child sex abuse.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, can you think of anything more evil then
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: somebody in that trusted position doing anything remotely like that
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: to a child. I mean, we want to take comfort
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: in the fact that serial killers look a certain way
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: and they're just you can just spot them a mile away,
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: like you know, the Buffalo Bill character in Silence of
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: the Lambs or whatever. But people who do evil are
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: often you know, Richard I did a show called The
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: Times Square Killer. Richard Cottingham was you know, a mild
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: manner computer executive who had lots of friends and went
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: out drinking with his buddies, and no one could believe
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: that he spent years going to Times Square when Times
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: Square in New York City was like the den of
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: iniquity of section, you know, every every o their store
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: was a pornography movie theater and.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Right before it was Disney like it is now.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: You know, Times Square in the mid seventies was you know,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: just set, you know, a den of iniquity of sex
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: and drugs. And he would go there and pray upon
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: the marginalized sex workers there that nobody cared about, and
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: the police weren't really investigating because the police were just
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: overwhelmed with crime in the New York in the seventies,
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: and they used to call it fear City, you know,
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: because there was just so much crime and not enough
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: police because New York was in a financial crisis. And
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: this Richard Cottingham, who only recently you know, was tagged
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: with some new killings. You know, Richard Cottingham preyed upon
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: these women but went home to a normal house, you know,
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: with a normal family and didn't look creepy and had
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: you know, the Gilgo Beach.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Killer, same thing same thing.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the nature of these people. They walk among us.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: They could be your teacher or your friend, your neighbor.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: That's the scary lesson of bundant Joe.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: This has been just so fascinating to me and I
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: deeply appreciate the work that you do and the documentaries specifically,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and this movie extremely wicked, shocking, the evil and vile
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: is really really powerful and it's still streaming on Netflix as.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: His Conversations with a Killer, which is the Ted Bundy.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Tapes, yes as well, and they're they're great to watch,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: sort of, you know, one after another, which is what
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: I did because it's just fascinating.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: You did a beautiful job on the narrative. So it's
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: been a pleasure meeting you. Thank you so much for
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: taking this time.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: Pleasure was mine.