Latest / Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge / Two Ts Presents: Two Jersey Js: Til Death Do Us Part?

Transcript

Two Ts Presents: Two Jersey Js: Til Death Do Us Part? · Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi guys, Hi everyone. I'm Jen Fessler, I'm Jackie Goldschneider.
0:06
Speaker 2: And together we are two Jersey Jays and here we are.
0:10
Speaker 2: How you doing there, jack I'm good. Everything is good.
0:13
Speaker 2: It's beautiful out. It is beautiful out.
0:15
Speaker 1: Finally, finally spring has sprung and everything's good. No complaints.
0:21
Speaker 1: Kids are healthy. Aiden's walking again. You know, he broke
0:23
Speaker 1: his knee. He's on the night we were at Madonna horrible.
0:28
Speaker 1: He is almost fully back and we're just getting ready.
0:32
Speaker 2: We're going to Europe.
0:33
Speaker 1: Nice, very nice, very excited and just happy to be
0:38
Speaker 1: here recording another pod with my best Yeah.
0:41
Speaker 2: So we Jackie and I. When we were going over
0:44
Speaker 2: what to talk about for this episode. This past week,
0:49
Speaker 2: we had the pleasure of going to a live podcast. Uh.
0:54
Speaker 2: TJ Holmes and Amy Roeboch did their first live podcast
0:59
Speaker 2: after I don't know what to call it, a scandal
1:03
Speaker 2: types well, it was really a scandalal type situation, but
1:06
Speaker 2: it was if you guys don't know, it was very scandalous,
1:08
Speaker 2: and so if you don't know, Amy and TJ were
1:12
Speaker 2: hosts on Good Morning America for hours, yes not just
1:16
Speaker 2: the third hour. Amy hosted throughout and TJ was also
1:20
Speaker 2: like the sports oh okay, right, reporter throughout and he
1:23
Speaker 2: did a lot of like filling in, so so I mean,
1:25
Speaker 2: like you know, I would think like one of the
1:26
Speaker 2: most coveted broadcasting positions that one could have, right, They
1:32
Speaker 2: are big deals, and they had an affair, although they yeah,
1:39
Speaker 2: they get very upset with that. They call it a relationship,
1:42
Speaker 2: not just that, but they there were reasons they didn't
1:44
Speaker 2: call it an affair. TJ was already I guess, had
1:46
Speaker 2: already been separated from his life.
1:47
Speaker 1: I mean, they said that they were not in good relationships.
1:51
Speaker 1: They were in relationships that were crumbling at the time
1:54
Speaker 1: that they started their relationship.
1:56
Speaker 2: So they didn't really talk about their previous marriages, but
2:01
Speaker 2: they talked a lot about shame. They talked a lot
2:05
Speaker 2: about scandal, about getting fired. I mean, the news, the
2:10
Speaker 2: paparazzi reported on it, and like days later they were
2:13
Speaker 2: both fired from these really really high profile jobs and
2:17
Speaker 2: what it was like and you know, sort of trying
2:20
Speaker 2: to figure out they didn't even want to leave the house,
2:22
Speaker 2: but where to go from there. So they were really
2:26
Speaker 2: really honest and I love them both. And it's funny
2:30
Speaker 2: because we posted about this and I got some comments
2:35
Speaker 2: and some DM saying you had a great night with
2:38
Speaker 2: Amy and tj oh you enjoy spending time with cheaters,
2:42
Speaker 2: or because I think I said something to the effect of, like,
2:45
Speaker 2: you know, I admire them, and so I got some
2:48
Speaker 2: blowback for that, which kind of pisses me off in
2:52
Speaker 2: the sense that you know, all of these high standards
2:57
Speaker 2: that everybody is so perfect, everybody more perfect, right, And listen,
3:03
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that they didn't make mistakes, and they
3:07
Speaker 2: actually talked about that. Their worst mistake was probably keeping
3:10
Speaker 2: it a secret for so long that they should have
3:12
Speaker 2: taken control of the narrative. But anyway, listen, you're also
3:16
Speaker 2: talking about a situation that I've you know, participated in
3:20
Speaker 2: terms of infidelity, and my husband and I have both
3:23
Speaker 2: experienced it, and shit happens and nobody gets away without either,
3:30
Speaker 2: you know, being the culprit. I'm not saying just a cheating,
3:36
Speaker 2: just there was so much judgment around what I had posted.
3:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the thing that got me and I love
3:42
Speaker 1: the podcast and I love listening to them, and I
3:43
Speaker 1: find them both to be warm and adorable and very
3:47
Speaker 1: in love with each other. But what I wish that
3:50
Speaker 1: they touched on just for a second, was what happened?
3:55
Speaker 2: What was happening in their relationships at the time, right, you.
3:58
Speaker 1: Know, because then you're left to one or what I
4:01
Speaker 1: found myself wondering And I'm not second guessing them. I
4:04
Speaker 1: don't know them, you know, but like, was the other
4:07
Speaker 1: person blindsided?
4:09
Speaker 2: Did they know how unhappy? Well you in TJ's I know,
4:12
Speaker 2: in Tech's case, he had already moved out. I know.
4:16
Speaker 2: You know, Amy talked about a photo that she had
4:18
Speaker 2: taken in Greece and that it was just felt like
4:20
Speaker 2: such a lie. We don't know. And again they probably
4:22
Speaker 2: were being respectful of their you know, ex or soon
4:26
Speaker 2: to be ex spouses. It was a podcast, It wasn't
4:29
Speaker 2: a discussion with, you know, a therapist.
4:31
Speaker 1: But what I was left with was wondering, like, well,
4:34
Speaker 1: what happened what happens in your old marriage?
4:39
Speaker 2: Like to get to that point, to get to that.
4:40
Speaker 1: Point where you I remember one thing they said was
4:44
Speaker 1: and because they had been friends for quite a while,
4:46
Speaker 1: and then they said that like one day, like a
4:49
Speaker 1: look just turns into a gaze, and like what happens
4:55
Speaker 1: to get you to that point where the friend with
4:59
Speaker 1: a friendship crosses over?
5:01
Speaker 2: Right, you know, and then the affair starts and what
5:02
Speaker 2: happens in the marriage that you're even open to it,
5:04
Speaker 2: which is what.
5:05
Speaker 1: Is happening at home that you're open to it. So
5:07
Speaker 1: today we want to talk to an expert. Yees, we'll
5:10
Speaker 1: tell you.
5:10
Speaker 2: Who she is about what goes on.
5:13
Speaker 1: In a marriage that can get you to that breaking
5:16
Speaker 1: point and what can you do about it so that
5:18
Speaker 1: you don't get there.
5:19
Speaker 2: Not just not just in terms of like having an affair,
5:21
Speaker 2: but you know, the disintegration of marriage and how to
5:28
Speaker 2: get back from a place you know that's that's really
5:31
Speaker 2: bad and maybe you know, get your marriage back on
5:34
Speaker 2: track or not, when do you call it quits? So
5:45
Speaker 2: you guys, today we have a very very special guest.
5:51
Speaker 2: It's someone that I know pretty well. I've known this
5:54
Speaker 2: person for years. She is a therapist. She has been
5:59
Speaker 2: in the business for what thirty years. She was the
6:06
Speaker 2: executive director of rehabilitation centers in Florida. She worked a lot,
6:13
Speaker 2: has worked a lot with addiction. She is currently running
6:16
Speaker 2: a practice here in Northern Jersey and she is beyond
6:20
Speaker 2: booked and there's a lot of focus for her right
6:23
Speaker 2: now on marriage counseling. I know all of this about
6:27
Speaker 2: her because I've known her for fifty four years, since
6:31
Speaker 2: she is my sister. Hi Robbie, Hi Ram introducing Robin Gutterman.
6:38
Speaker 2: You guys, we're so excited to have you.
6:40
Speaker 1: Here because I know that you know all about this
6:43
Speaker 1: topic that we are going to discuss what causes the
6:48
Speaker 1: end of a marriage, because you tell her.
6:51
Speaker 2: Well, you know we have been We've discussed before you
6:55
Speaker 2: hopped on, Robin that Jackie and I recently attended a
6:59
Speaker 2: live podcast with TJ Holmes and Amy Robock. I don't
7:03
Speaker 2: know if you know them. I think we've discussed it,
7:04
Speaker 2: but anyway, so the two of them, they had an affair.
7:07
Speaker 2: They were fired from Good Morning America like two days
7:10
Speaker 2: after the word was out. It was a huge scandal,
7:13
Speaker 2: and they recently, for the first time sort of shared
7:17
Speaker 2: the story. What they really didn't do is talk too
7:20
Speaker 2: much about their previous marriages. They didn't talk at all. Yeah, yeah,
7:24
Speaker 2: they really were more focused on the shame that came
7:26
Speaker 2: from the scandal, about how the affairs started, how they
7:29
Speaker 2: became best friends. They both know TJ struggled with a
7:33
Speaker 2: lot of depression in terms of the job he was doing.
7:35
Speaker 2: So Jackie and I have just you know, been talking
7:38
Speaker 2: a lot about them, and you know, a lot of
7:42
Speaker 2: our listeners, I am pretty sure, struggle with these issues.
7:47
Speaker 2: And even if it's not marriage, it could be long
7:50
Speaker 2: term relationships. I know that. You actually just attended a
7:53
Speaker 2: conference in Orlando, right, I.
7:55
Speaker 3: Did a Marriage and Family Center conference from a really
7:59
Speaker 3: brilliant guy who is one of the top like gurus
8:03
Speaker 3: of marriage, of marriage and family counseling.
8:05
Speaker 4: So I mean, you.
8:06
Speaker 1: Take you take it people like Amy and TJ who
8:09
Speaker 1: seem very together, they have their shit together, their beautiful, loving,
8:15
Speaker 1: warm and you wonder what could have gone so wrong
8:19
Speaker 1: in their previous relationships.
8:21
Speaker 2: That yeah, right, yeah, well, I mean they the affair
8:24
Speaker 2: the way they've represented it, and again they didn't really
8:26
Speaker 2: talk too much about previous marriages, but it was sort
8:30
Speaker 2: of more about the way that they fell in love.
8:33
Speaker 2: So we're but for our purposes, you know, I would
8:36
Speaker 2: love to talk about what is happening in the marriage
8:40
Speaker 2: and how does a marriage disintegrate, And I'm sure there's
8:44
Speaker 2: all different ways, but to the point where an affair happens,
8:48
Speaker 2: a divorce happens, how do you robin get people back
8:52
Speaker 2: on track? Can you always get people back on track.
8:54
Speaker 2: So one of the biggest issues. Yeah, let's start at
8:56
Speaker 2: the start. What's the what's the number one thing that
8:58
Speaker 2: tears people apart?
9:00
Speaker 3: Communication, I would say, or an inability to manage conflict at.
9:07
Speaker 2: House of what I say, is that something because we're
9:10
Speaker 2: you know, as you know rob our podcast, we're focused
9:12
Speaker 2: on women of a certain age, not necessarily newlyweds. But still,
9:16
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe these problems run, you know, in
9:19
Speaker 2: terms of they run with newlyweds and then people have
9:23
Speaker 2: been married for years and years. But right, tell us, like,
9:26
Speaker 2: what is I guess communication is sort of the most
9:31
Speaker 2: common issue. Does that happen at the beginning of a marriage?
9:33
Speaker 2: Does the marriage disintegrate our kids the reason? Yeah?
9:36
Speaker 1: Does that mean you just don't talk or you don't
9:39
Speaker 1: know how to resolve your issues?
9:41
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, I think there are a lot of
9:43
Speaker 3: things that end up being the struggle for people in marriage.
9:48
Speaker 3: One of them, I mean, things do change after you
9:50
Speaker 3: have children, for sure, that becomes a big piece. Finances
9:55
Speaker 3: intimacy or lack of intimacy emotionallyhysically, sexually over time, especially
10:03
Speaker 3: in older women, I think that starts to decrease over
10:07
Speaker 3: time from what I'm seeing a lot of But you know,
10:10
Speaker 3: the things that people really focus on are the things
10:12
Speaker 3: that keep.
10:13
Speaker 4: The marriage together.
10:14
Speaker 3: And there are three things, right, So it starts with
10:16
Speaker 3: friendship being allies and partners in a relationship, putting each
10:21
Speaker 3: other first, making each other a priority above anyone and
10:25
Speaker 3: everything else is even the kids, even the kids, without
10:30
Speaker 3: a doubt, the marriage comes before the children.
10:32
Speaker 2: Robbie, what does that look like on like in a
10:34
Speaker 2: practical can you give us like an example of that,
10:36
Speaker 2: like a practical example when for people that are dealing
10:39
Speaker 2: with the juggling the kids and the marriage.
10:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's you know, on a daily basis,
10:45
Speaker 3: we talk about you're either turning towards or turning away
10:48
Speaker 3: from your partner.
10:49
Speaker 4: And everything that you do on a daily basis.
10:51
Speaker 3: So for example, you're sitting at the table, right and
10:54
Speaker 3: you're with your partner and one if you picks up
10:57
Speaker 3: the phone and is reading your text messages, that would
11:00
Speaker 3: be considered a turnway. Right, you're having a conversation, you're
11:03
Speaker 3: not giving eye contact, that would be a turnarway. One
11:07
Speaker 3: text the other throughout the day, the other one doesn't answer,
11:10
Speaker 3: that would be considered a turn away. There's many things
11:13
Speaker 3: that we do on a daily basis that we're either
11:15
Speaker 3: nurturing our relationship or we're doing things that set it up.
11:19
Speaker 3: Little things all the time, all throughout the day that's
11:22
Speaker 3: set it up for resentment over time, and it's things
11:25
Speaker 3: that we don't think about and we don't catch. But
11:28
Speaker 3: if the marriage isn't where it needs to be and
11:30
Speaker 3: it's not the priority, then everything that comes underneath that
11:34
Speaker 3: umbrella becomes an issue.
11:37
Speaker 1: But don't you have to prioritize your kids. They're needy,
11:41
Speaker 1: they need you.
11:42
Speaker 3: It's not that your children aren't a priority. Of course,
11:45
Speaker 3: your children are priority, but they're not the biggest priority.
11:48
Speaker 3: I like to say, shit runs downhill. So if the
11:51
Speaker 3: marriage relationship is strong, there's friendship, there's support, there's affection,
11:56
Speaker 3: there's love, there's togetherness, there's unity and parenting all of
12:00
Speaker 3: those things or what you're role modeling for your children. Right,
12:03
Speaker 3: So if that's what we're focusing on a lot a
12:06
Speaker 3: lot of the time, is making sure that relationship is
12:09
Speaker 3: the most healthy, then what your kids begin to see
12:13
Speaker 3: is what does it look like, right? What does it
12:15
Speaker 3: look like when we have a fight as partners, Well,
12:18
Speaker 3: it looks like we scream maybe, and we resolve it
12:21
Speaker 3: and our kids get to see how we deal with life,
12:24
Speaker 3: even though it's not perfect, how we deal with it together.
12:28
Speaker 1: Right, So you're not saying like, if your kids have
12:30
Speaker 1: something they need to be at, like you choose a
12:32
Speaker 1: date night instead.
12:33
Speaker 2: That's not what you're saying.
12:34
Speaker 3: Okay, No, absolutely not. I'm just saying that the way
12:37
Speaker 3: that you connect in your relationship needs to be the
12:40
Speaker 3: priority over anything and everything else in your life.
12:44
Speaker 4: I love otherwise other therewise there's holes over time.
12:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said there were three things, and the first
12:50
Speaker 2: thing is friendship, which I love, which only in the
12:54
Speaker 2: sense that you know this is old news ready, but
12:57
Speaker 2: Jeff and I have had after twenty five years in April,
13:00
Speaker 2: we've certainly had our ups and our downs and separated
13:04
Speaker 2: for a year and a half, and there were infidelities,
13:07
Speaker 2: and there have been lots there's lots of stuff, right
13:09
Speaker 2: that's packed into that twenty five years. The thing that
13:12
Speaker 2: I can say now is that and that I cherish
13:15
Speaker 2: the most is the friendship is the and I think
13:19
Speaker 2: you said like that feeling of I don't know how
13:21
Speaker 2: you said it, but but we're such a team. All
13:24
Speaker 2: the other stuff and I don't know what comes after
13:26
Speaker 2: the friendship, but to me, that's for me, that's the
13:29
Speaker 2: most important part of my relationship. That's the part that
13:32
Speaker 2: I really treasure the most.
13:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's being allies, being partners, making sure the other
13:38
Speaker 3: person knows on a daily basis that they're meaningful, that
13:41
Speaker 3: they're important, that they're a priority, right in the little ways,
13:45
Speaker 3: not in grand gestures, just in the little things that
13:47
Speaker 3: we do that let the other person know that we're
13:49
Speaker 3: leaning towards them, you know, throughout the day.
13:53
Speaker 2: What was the next thing?
13:55
Speaker 3: So the next thing is managing conflict hence communication, learning
14:00
Speaker 3: how to fight fairly.
14:02
Speaker 1: Right.
14:02
Speaker 3: I think we don't know how to listen to each other.
14:05
Speaker 3: I think we hear each other, but we don't know
14:07
Speaker 3: how to actively listen. And that's a skill, right, learning
14:11
Speaker 3: how to talk to someone so they can hear you.
14:13
Speaker 1: Okay, But when you get in a fight and it's
14:15
Speaker 1: heated a lot of Evan and I get along great,
14:19
Speaker 1: but there are times when we just have to walk
14:20
Speaker 1: away from each other.
14:22
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
14:23
Speaker 2: So what do you do in those kinds of circumstances?
14:26
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's it's learning how to do
14:29
Speaker 3: things that are going to promote healthy you know, healthy
14:33
Speaker 3: fighting and healthy communication. So the way that you talk
14:38
Speaker 3: to somebody you never you know, the way the.
14:40
Speaker 4: Choice of words that you use are a big thing.
14:43
Speaker 3: We don't think that they are, but all day, every day,
14:46
Speaker 3: the choices that we use make people defensive.
14:49
Speaker 2: Give us an example.
14:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you want to say something along the
14:54
Speaker 3: lines of why didn't you take out the garbage? You
14:57
Speaker 3: never take it out. I always have to do it,
15:00
Speaker 3: and you're sitting in my office, I would say to you, Yeah.
15:03
Speaker 4: No, that's not a good way to start, right.
15:05
Speaker 3: Using a sentence that starts with you is going to
15:08
Speaker 3: be me talking about somebody else's behavior and a negative capacity.
15:13
Speaker 4: You is the worst word on the planet to ever use.
15:16
Speaker 3: Instead, I'm going to say, you know, it's upsetting for
15:19
Speaker 3: me when I feel like, you know, we both walk
15:22
Speaker 3: by the garbage and it seems like I'm the only
15:24
Speaker 3: one that's taking it out, and when that happens, I
15:26
Speaker 3: feel frustrated, right as opposed to why don't you ever
15:30
Speaker 3: do it? You never take it out? It's so annoying. Yeah,
15:33
Speaker 3: very different way of dealing. So it's the way that
15:36
Speaker 3: you're speaking, right that helps a conversation and it's also,
15:41
Speaker 3: as you said, Jackie, taking those moments where one person
15:44
Speaker 3: becomes flooded emotionally in a fight, which means emotionally and
15:48
Speaker 3: physically at their fill. Right, So if the other person
15:51
Speaker 3: says one more thing to me, I'm going to cut
15:54
Speaker 3: runneth over, I'm going to lose my mind. Right, I'm
15:57
Speaker 3: gonna scream, I'm gonna walk away, I'm going to do
15:59
Speaker 3: whatever they're is. So it's important when one person is
16:02
Speaker 3: flooded emotionally to be able to say, hey, I'm at
16:06
Speaker 3: my fill. How about we take a twenty minute break
16:09
Speaker 3: and go in the other room and calm down, and
16:12
Speaker 3: I say, read a magazine because that's the best way
16:15
Speaker 3: to get your body chemistry back down to normals. To
16:17
Speaker 3: read some piece of crap that means.
16:20
Speaker 2: Nothing online or does it have to be like us Weekly?
16:23
Speaker 2: Did it be anything?
16:25
Speaker 3: It can be anything, but it can't be from a phone.
16:27
Speaker 3: It needs to be something that you can pick up.
16:29
Speaker 2: Interesting.
16:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's the number one intervention for emotionally de escalating.
16:36
Speaker 4: You.
16:36
Speaker 2: Wow, so interesting. I got to buy in the other room. Yeah.
16:41
Speaker 3: You go in the other room for twenty minutes and
16:43
Speaker 3: then you come back together and you try to start
16:45
Speaker 3: again with an ice statement instead of a youth statement,
16:48
Speaker 3: which will immediately begin to change just how the tone
16:51
Speaker 3: is of the conversation.
16:53
Speaker 4: Does that make sense?
16:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. What is the third thing? So we've
16:57
Speaker 2: got friendship and communications.
17:00
Speaker 4: Conflict, managing conflict.
17:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the most important one to me after friendship, well,
17:05
Speaker 3: all of them are important is shared meaning?
17:09
Speaker 2: What is that?
17:09
Speaker 3: So as a couple, it's how do you dump yourself
17:14
Speaker 3: into somebody else's subjective reality. So the things that are
17:19
Speaker 3: important to them, their hopes, their dreams, their wishes, they're
17:24
Speaker 3: the things that make them.
17:25
Speaker 4: Who they are.
17:26
Speaker 3: How do you put yourself in that so you can
17:29
Speaker 3: create shared meaning together. An example would be one of
17:33
Speaker 3: my clients was talking about how she wanted to climb
17:38
Speaker 3: on Mount Everest and the husband and was scared of heights.
17:42
Speaker 3: So she's like, well, I've been wanting to do this
17:46
Speaker 3: my bucket list, it's my dream. So he's petrified, but
17:50
Speaker 3: he made a decision to go with her to do
17:52
Speaker 3: this as scared as he was, and he did the
17:55
Speaker 3: best he could and then stopped.
17:56
Speaker 4: They went with a guide.
17:57
Speaker 3: And she climbed up higher, so they oienced it something
18:01
Speaker 3: that was her dream together and created shared meaning.
18:05
Speaker 4: And I think.
18:06
Speaker 3: That's the biggest The things that you do on a
18:08
Speaker 3: daily basis, the rituals, right, even little things like my
18:12
Speaker 3: husband brings me coffee Jeff for you too every morning.
18:17
Speaker 3: What are the things that the two of you can
18:19
Speaker 3: jump into in each other subjective reality meaning the dreams,
18:24
Speaker 3: the hope, the wishes, the things that are important and
18:26
Speaker 3: become part of it.
18:28
Speaker 4: So funny the growth and sake of the relationship.
18:31
Speaker 2: I don't ever ask Jeff what are your Well, that's
18:34
Speaker 2: not true. I probably do, and he doesn't answer because
18:36
Speaker 2: he's like, I'm working, but when whenever, But he's like, like,
18:39
Speaker 2: what do you want? Like moving forward? Like what are
18:41
Speaker 2: your We want to do different things when we travel,
18:43
Speaker 2: so I personally know and so does See. We push because,
18:46
Speaker 2: for instance, Jeff could spend all day long. We're about
18:49
Speaker 2: to go to Vietnam. He's going to want to tour
18:52
Speaker 2: every historical site, and I more want to see the
18:56
Speaker 2: people in the I mean he wants to We want
18:58
Speaker 2: to do both, but like I will, I will push myself.
19:01
Speaker 2: I don't always, you know, want to see want to
19:05
Speaker 2: go to every museum or want to go to every
19:08
Speaker 2: monument and that's important him. Sometimes don't. I probably don't
19:11
Speaker 2: push hard enough. But I feel like that's what you're saying,
19:13
Speaker 2: like to actually, you know, and I and I'm trying
19:16
Speaker 2: to think of like do you have anything real life?
19:18
Speaker 1: Well, I just wanted to ask so, But it's not
19:20
Speaker 1: always an instance like it would be okay if that
19:22
Speaker 1: husband said, you know, I'm really scared, I don't want
19:26
Speaker 1: to do this.
19:27
Speaker 2: I'm like, I hope that you have fun on your own,
19:30
Speaker 2: Like is that okay?
19:32
Speaker 1: Because there's oftentimes where things that I want to do
19:36
Speaker 1: that Evan is just so uninterested in, and I say,
19:39
Speaker 1: it's okay, I'll go do it, I'll grab a girlfriend,
19:41
Speaker 1: I'll do it, and like we'll do something else together.
19:44
Speaker 2: Is that okay to still?
19:45
Speaker 4: I mean, I think I think that it's okay.
19:47
Speaker 3: I think that you know, we have to compromise and
19:50
Speaker 3: pick and shoes. We can't always just do the things
19:52
Speaker 3: that we want to do. Sometimes we have to jump
19:55
Speaker 3: into somebody else's love or interest because we love them
19:59
Speaker 3: and more not about it being about them, but us
20:01
Speaker 3: trying to understand who they are right as humans, Like
20:06
Speaker 3: what is it about this that's so exciting for you?
20:09
Speaker 3: It's like Jennifer learning football right her husband loves football.
20:12
Speaker 3: Finally making a decision to say, all right, I've been
20:15
Speaker 3: sitting on the couch with be bored on my phone
20:17
Speaker 3: for the last twenty years, Right, what can I do?
20:20
Speaker 3: What can I do different? Well, huh, maybe someone can
20:23
Speaker 3: teach me about football. I might not like it as
20:26
Speaker 3: much as Jeff Bessler, but now I actually might be
20:29
Speaker 3: able to say, you know what a down is, you know,
20:32
Speaker 3: and I might be able to have a conversation about
20:35
Speaker 3: a certain correct, there are things things like that, right,
20:40
Speaker 3: So not even all the way sharing what we can
20:43
Speaker 3: share to become part of the other person's dream and
20:48
Speaker 3: subjective reality, the things that are important as part of
20:51
Speaker 3: their truth.
21:00
Speaker 2: So people, you know, a couple walks through the door
21:03
Speaker 2: and launching it to this at the point that they're
21:06
Speaker 2: at may not help. Like they're in the midst of
21:09
Speaker 2: you know, one of them has had an affair, they've
21:11
Speaker 2: been discovered, there's no intimacy left. How do you guide
21:16
Speaker 2: people that have grown so far apart? Yeah, like don't you? Oh?
21:20
Speaker 1: Like so one part of me is like, of course
21:22
Speaker 1: you try to save any way that you can.
21:25
Speaker 2: But the other part is like you live once life
21:27
Speaker 2: is sure.
21:28
Speaker 1: You owe it to yourself to be with a partner
21:29
Speaker 1: who really makes you happy.
21:32
Speaker 2: Where's the line?
21:32
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay.
21:34
Speaker 3: So I think that when people come in, there's two
21:37
Speaker 3: things that I try to really teach them. One is,
21:41
Speaker 3: are you here unconditionally meaning we got married for better
21:46
Speaker 3: or for worse, come what may, and no mat matter
21:48
Speaker 3: what happens, that's.
21:50
Speaker 4: Our goal to figure it out.
21:52
Speaker 3: Or I married you and it's conditional, meaning that if
21:55
Speaker 3: I'd a part in my life where I'm different, I've
21:58
Speaker 3: grown out of it, I'm unsure.
22:00
Speaker 4: Then I need to figure out, you know, kind of
22:03
Speaker 4: where I am.
22:03
Speaker 3: So if two people come in and they're both unconditional, great,
22:07
Speaker 3: they're both conditional I can still work with because it
22:09
Speaker 3: means there's hope there. If one's unconditional and one's conditional,
22:14
Speaker 3: I tell them they need to go home and have
22:15
Speaker 3: a conversation.
22:17
Speaker 2: So like, what do you mean? So like if they
22:19
Speaker 2: both come in and one says, no, matter what you do, asshole,
22:22
Speaker 2: I'm sticking by you. I want to stay married to you,
22:24
Speaker 2: and I want this, you know, until the end of time,
22:27
Speaker 2: and the other says, well, I don't really feel it,
22:30
Speaker 2: and if things don't change, I'm out. That's when you
22:32
Speaker 2: know it's over. Is that what you're saying that?
22:35
Speaker 3: And then the other thing is if I say to
22:37
Speaker 3: one one of the clients, tell me something good about
22:41
Speaker 3: your significant other, tell me something good. If you can't
22:44
Speaker 3: tell me anything good about your significant other, then you
22:47
Speaker 3: need to go home and have a conversation, because that
22:51
Speaker 3: means we're at the time where there's just contempt. And
22:54
Speaker 3: if we're at a place of contempt, then we really
22:57
Speaker 3: need to reevaluate.
22:58
Speaker 2: And you can't help at that point.
23:01
Speaker 3: If someone says to me that if they can't find
23:04
Speaker 3: something good about their partner, then I'm not one of
23:08
Speaker 3: those people that's going to try to create something where
23:10
Speaker 3: there's nothing left.
23:11
Speaker 4: Okay, so other therapist, cool.
23:14
Speaker 1: Here's a question. If you have all of those things,
23:16
Speaker 1: you have what seems to you to be a great marriage,
23:20
Speaker 1: the friendship, the intimacy, all of it communication, Is it
23:26
Speaker 1: possible that one person just falls for someone else? Can
23:31
Speaker 1: that still happen even with everything?
23:35
Speaker 4: Yeah?
23:35
Speaker 3: I think, Look, it depends on how much we're nurturing
23:37
Speaker 3: the relationship.
23:38
Speaker 2: Right.
23:38
Speaker 3: We can have a good relationship just day in day
23:41
Speaker 3: out and we're just not fighting, and we would just
23:43
Speaker 3: have you know we have a good marriage. There's another part,
23:47
Speaker 3: are we nurturing it or are we not and nurturing
23:50
Speaker 3: it is more about the things that I'm talking about
23:52
Speaker 3: with the shared meaning. People do end up having affairs
23:55
Speaker 3: for many different reasons, which also makes a couples count
24:00
Speaker 3: think very difficult. Right, So there's two things that make
24:02
Speaker 3: it difficult, and an abusive relationship and an affair.
24:06
Speaker 4: Those are the two things that are very very difficult
24:09
Speaker 4: to do with well.
24:10
Speaker 1: In abusive relationship, I would never advocate anybody going back
24:13
Speaker 1: to but an affair, and I think Jen and I
24:15
Speaker 1: sit very differently on this because I have no experience
24:18
Speaker 1: with it.
24:18
Speaker 2: But can you ever.
24:19
Speaker 1: Fully get the trust back? Like do you fully fully
24:22
Speaker 1: trust your partner?
24:23
Speaker 2: Listen, I don't know. I can't answer that in a
24:25
Speaker 2: global sense. Do I trust Jeffessler one hundred percent? Yes,
24:29
Speaker 2: I do? And more than that, Like it's so I
24:34
Speaker 2: don't even think about it. It's just the last thing
24:37
Speaker 2: on my mind, you know, I don't. It's not like
24:41
Speaker 2: I'm maybe back in the day it happened. The infidelities
24:45
Speaker 2: both of ours have been so long ago, and I
24:48
Speaker 2: guess for years afterwards, I was, you know, suspicious looking
24:52
Speaker 2: at the phone or questioning, and I just know I
24:55
Speaker 2: don't ever even think about it.
24:57
Speaker 3: I don't, but I think what Jackie said, I think
25:00
Speaker 3: there are people that can't let it go for sure.
25:03
Speaker 3: So you know, in counseling, I'll take a look at
25:05
Speaker 3: I'll have an individual session. If there was an affair
25:08
Speaker 3: and the person who had the affair, I'm going to
25:10
Speaker 3: ask them straight out if you need to tell the
25:12
Speaker 3: truth right there cannot be any more secrets end of it.
25:16
Speaker 3: So if you're not willing to tell the truth to
25:21
Speaker 3: the partner, I mean to your partner, to me and
25:25
Speaker 3: to the partner, but I meet it individually, so this person,
25:28
Speaker 3: you know, the partner will know where I stand on this,
25:32
Speaker 3: that the truth has to happen and the secrets have
25:35
Speaker 3: to be finished, and that the things that are discussed
25:39
Speaker 3: in terms of an affair are discussed. Everything that that
25:43
Speaker 3: the person who was this was done to, Everything is
25:48
Speaker 3: asked except the specifics of what happened in the bedroom.
25:51
Speaker 3: We all know what happens in the bedroom, right, We
25:53
Speaker 3: don't need to have a conversation in therapy about what
25:57
Speaker 3: happens in the bedroom. We know out side of that
26:01
Speaker 3: that person engaged in this behavior and the person who
26:05
Speaker 3: has been devastated deserves The answer is without secrets.
26:10
Speaker 1: So is it a different counseling session if there was
26:12
Speaker 1: an emotional attachment versus just more about the sex.
26:18
Speaker 3: No, I think it's the same thing in terms of
26:21
Speaker 3: what in terms of being the truth?
26:23
Speaker 4: Right, what's the truth?
26:24
Speaker 3: We're not going to have secrets in our marriage and
26:27
Speaker 3: it's going to continue to come up over time, right
26:30
Speaker 3: until there is trust that's built back, and trust is
26:33
Speaker 3: built back by acting remorsefully and understanding what the other
26:37
Speaker 3: person needs. And remorse is an action. It's not something
26:40
Speaker 3: we say, it's something we do and how we behave.
26:42
Speaker 2: Am I an enigma? Rob? Do you think, like how
26:44
Speaker 2: many of the people that you counsel that where there's infidelity,
26:47
Speaker 2: how many of them do make the marriage last and
26:51
Speaker 2: you know, fix it?
26:53
Speaker 3: I mean I don't really have you know, a percentage.
26:57
Speaker 3: It's really about what's reported and who continue used to
27:00
Speaker 3: come back.
27:00
Speaker 2: You're not because Jennifer Aiden's marriage is fine? No, I
27:04
Speaker 2: don't mean. The only one I'm just saying is it rare?
27:06
Speaker 2: Is it really rare to be able to come back
27:08
Speaker 2: from infidelity? I mean, I can say, like, I have
27:11
Speaker 2: a lot a lot of friends who are divorced and
27:15
Speaker 2: who have you know been either you know, the cheaer
27:19
Speaker 2: or the one that was cheated on, and so it's
27:23
Speaker 2: I don't see that much although maybe nobody, not a
27:27
Speaker 2: lot of people tell me, but there's not often that
27:28
Speaker 2: bounce back of Okay, we survived it, we're back together at.
27:31
Speaker 4: Least, you know what I actually do.
27:33
Speaker 3: I think people that are committed because of the reasons
27:37
Speaker 3: that I said before, all the other things Jackie you
27:40
Speaker 3: brought up, I think that if people are committed, I
27:42
Speaker 3: think there is and invested in doing the work outside
27:46
Speaker 3: of therapy as well, because that's where most of the
27:48
Speaker 3: work happens. Right you're with a therapist for an hour,
27:51
Speaker 3: and you're both committed to coming and doing what's suggested.
27:54
Speaker 4: I do think I have.
27:55
Speaker 3: I can think of, just off the top of my head,
27:58
Speaker 3: five or six couples that had eat their emotional affairs
28:01
Speaker 3: Jackie asked, or affairs, and they're together, two of whom
28:04
Speaker 3: have had children since they started coming to me.
28:08
Speaker 4: So I do.
28:09
Speaker 3: I think it's really more about how invested are we
28:13
Speaker 3: and how are we working on the things in the
28:16
Speaker 3: marriage that help us to get to that place of
28:20
Speaker 3: earning back the trust right and in the relationship over time,
28:24
Speaker 3: and it's.
28:24
Speaker 2: Got to be I don't know if this is this
28:27
Speaker 2: is the truth or just the way. I don't really know,
28:30
Speaker 2: but it feels to me like if we hadn't been
28:33
Speaker 2: through that and it was a long time ago, I
28:36
Speaker 2: don't know that we would be where we are today.
28:39
Speaker 2: I would not recommend I'm not advocating for infidelity, really
28:43
Speaker 2: I'm not, but I just think to myself, I still
28:46
Speaker 2: have this like there's this pervasive feeling that I'm lucky,
28:53
Speaker 2: you know, not just because I got we got back together.
28:56
Speaker 2: There are a lot of reasons why I feel blessed
28:58
Speaker 2: and that I have so much gratitude, But I feel
29:01
Speaker 2: like we don't take each other for granted like we
29:05
Speaker 2: did at the beginning of our marriage. It's not, you know,
29:08
Speaker 2: it's it's not a given.
29:10
Speaker 1: Yep, that's not Can I ask you a question just
29:13
Speaker 1: some other things that in doing our research, we saw
29:17
Speaker 1: that it said finances, we're the biggest cause of stress
29:21
Speaker 1: in a relationship.
29:22
Speaker 2: So but what can you do about that?
29:25
Speaker 1: I mean, and do you advise women to have their
29:27
Speaker 1: own money and their own bank accounts.
29:31
Speaker 3: I really think it just it depends on the dynamic
29:33
Speaker 3: of the relationship. What I've actually found is most people
29:36
Speaker 3: that are married first marriage, they have joint.
29:39
Speaker 4: Accounts, interestingly enough, and then.
29:42
Speaker 3: Most people that are on their second, third, eighteenth marriage,
29:45
Speaker 3: they usually have their own right. So now they've figured
29:48
Speaker 3: out for household expenses they usually have shared and for
29:53
Speaker 3: everything else they keep separate. And that's what I've seen
29:57
Speaker 3: the majority. I'm not sure why, Jackie. I don't know
29:59
Speaker 3: if it's just the first time around, maybe it's just
30:02
Speaker 3: do I think.
30:02
Speaker 2: It's because they maybe want to protect if they have kids,
30:04
Speaker 2: they want to protect the kids right.
30:06
Speaker 3: Right, if they have divorce, if they get divorced second
30:09
Speaker 3: time around, whatever, they have separate accounts.
30:11
Speaker 4: Whatever it might be. But I don't think there's anything
30:13
Speaker 4: wrong with it. I think everything is worthy of a discussion.
30:16
Speaker 2: Okay, a discussion.
30:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about relatives? Like extended families cause a lot
30:21
Speaker 1: of problems. What do you do about that? Because you
30:22
Speaker 1: can't just cut off your family, Like, what do you
30:25
Speaker 1: do about like mother in laws. I have a wonderful
30:27
Speaker 1: mother in law, but what do you do with a
30:28
Speaker 1: mother in law that like just won't stop interfering or
30:33
Speaker 1: in laws in generating.
30:34
Speaker 3: I think it's important to first talk it out together.
30:39
Speaker 3: What are the things that are important, you know, husband
30:41
Speaker 3: and wife in terms of are boundaries and interference right,
30:46
Speaker 3: what is the most upsetting? Are we listening to each
30:48
Speaker 3: other about the things that we really need and the
30:51
Speaker 3: things that upset us or get disrupted by family? And
30:55
Speaker 3: a lot of the time it's an inability based on
30:57
Speaker 3: a history to set boundaries right with our parents, whether
31:00
Speaker 3: it's due to guilt, whether it's because they've been there
31:03
Speaker 3: for us our whole lives, whether it's because there's a
31:06
Speaker 3: dynamic that's happened since childhood that prevents them from setting
31:10
Speaker 3: up boundaries. So I think again, it's always going to
31:13
Speaker 3: be about a conversation. It's always going to be about
31:16
Speaker 3: how do we compromise on the things that are important
31:19
Speaker 3: to each of us when it comes to family members,
31:22
Speaker 3: So how do we stick up a boundary. Maybe it's
31:24
Speaker 3: a family that walks in without knocking, right, they just
31:27
Speaker 3: come over, Then there needs to be a conversation. If
31:30
Speaker 3: that's very disruptive to me and not to my husband,
31:34
Speaker 3: then I need to have a conversation. And the hope
31:36
Speaker 3: would be that depending on the dynamic, that one of
31:39
Speaker 3: us would have a conversation and start with validating and
31:43
Speaker 3: supporting the family. We love you so much, you know,
31:46
Speaker 3: we love having you come to our house, the kids.
31:50
Speaker 3: It makes the kids so happy, It makes us so happy.
31:52
Speaker 3: But sometimes it's hard for us when there's just a
31:55
Speaker 3: drop in because we have a lot of things going
31:57
Speaker 3: on and as much you know, we love, love, love
31:59
Speaker 3: having here. But we would so appreciate if you were,
32:02
Speaker 3: you know, to get a phone call before you come,
32:04
Speaker 3: just so we can make sure we're dressed and the
32:06
Speaker 3: kids are you know, we're ready or whatever it might be.
32:10
Speaker 4: It just it makes it easier for us.
32:12
Speaker 3: So again, talking for you, Jackie, about what you need
32:15
Speaker 3: instead of what the extended family or the you know,
32:18
Speaker 3: the family members are doing to you anything, y Right,
32:24
Speaker 3: it's what do we need to make.
32:26
Speaker 4: Us feel okay?
32:27
Speaker 3: And how can we validate and support the people that
32:29
Speaker 3: we love while trying to put up the boundary that says, hey,
32:33
Speaker 3: it's important to me that we get knocks on the
32:36
Speaker 3: door before people come over because it just kind of
32:38
Speaker 3: freaks me out.
32:39
Speaker 4: So we'd really appreciate it.
32:40
Speaker 1: Right, So instead of attacking the other person, or what
32:43
Speaker 1: other people are doing.
32:44
Speaker 2: You make it more about your needs. I love that. Yeah,
32:47
Speaker 2: also Rob women around our age, Jackie, not you yet,
32:51
Speaker 2: but Robin, you and me? So the empty nest thing, right, So,
32:57
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of couples that you work with,
33:00
Speaker 2: probably the kids leave and what's left now? Right when
33:03
Speaker 2: when they've devoted so much time and effort to the kids,
33:08
Speaker 2: And is it do you find a lot of that
33:10
Speaker 2: couple struggling to reconnect after the kids are gone?
33:16
Speaker 4: You know?
33:17
Speaker 3: I think it really depends on the dynamic throughout in
33:21
Speaker 3: the relationship.
33:22
Speaker 4: You know, I don't.
33:24
Speaker 3: I do see it, but I don't know it's interesting enough.
33:27
Speaker 3: I don't know if I see it as much as
33:29
Speaker 3: I thought I would see it. I think there's a
33:32
Speaker 3: rekindling a lot of the time, or maybe that's the
33:35
Speaker 3: time where couples do come in and want to work
33:38
Speaker 3: on their relationship because they feel like they they put
33:42
Speaker 3: it on the back burner.
33:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, I hear that, right, that they put their.
33:46
Speaker 3: Relationship on the back burner as secondary to the children.
33:49
Speaker 1: Right.
33:50
Speaker 3: And that's where I try to change the dynamic. Like
33:53
Speaker 3: I said at the beginning, Oh no, no, no, no, no,
33:55
Speaker 3: you need to be as much of a priority as
33:57
Speaker 3: as your children. Otherwise you do end up with that. Now,
34:00
Speaker 3: where are we after the kids are gone?
34:10
Speaker 2: So this is just a little funny anecdote. But years
34:13
Speaker 2: and years ago, Rachel, my daughter was I don't know
34:16
Speaker 2: how she was. She's a little girl, not little little,
34:18
Speaker 2: but little whatever. Maybe she was twelve, I don't know.
34:21
Speaker 2: But she said to me, who do you love the
34:27
Speaker 2: most in the world? And maybe she was younger, I
34:31
Speaker 2: can't whatever. I don't remember anything anymore, but but I
34:34
Speaker 2: remember she said it to me. And I was very
34:36
Speaker 2: conscious when I said to her, I want because I
34:39
Speaker 2: thought I want her to feel safe, right, And I
34:42
Speaker 2: said I love Daddy the most, which is a big Obviously,
34:45
Speaker 2: I think I made a big mistake. But I did it.
34:48
Speaker 2: I did it very I did. I made it. I
34:53
Speaker 2: made it very like purposely because I thought for I
34:56
Speaker 2: don't know why I would think that that that would
34:58
Speaker 2: just make her feel like mommy and Daddy. You know,
35:02
Speaker 2: I don't know what secure right. Anyway, she had a fit.
35:07
Speaker 2: She bitched, such a fit, the screaming exact Zack, do
35:10
Speaker 2: you do that? Oh my god, you see Rachel doing that?
35:13
Speaker 2: You know what, Mab We just said, she said he
35:15
Speaker 2: loves daddy bust. It was insane, and then I'm like
35:18
Speaker 2: trying to backtrack. I'm like, no, I just said that.
35:20
Speaker 2: I don't really mean it, Rach. I love you guys
35:23
Speaker 2: the most.
35:25
Speaker 4: There's some good role modeling, Jenny, right, yes.
35:28
Speaker 2: Exactly, but like you know that sort of like prioritizing
35:33
Speaker 2: the kids, I would think should see you prioritize you
35:36
Speaker 2: know your partner absolutely to be more than even not
35:40
Speaker 2: more than that.
35:40
Speaker 4: What do you want them to learn? What do you
35:42
Speaker 4: want them to learn? I want them to learn love.
35:44
Speaker 4: You want them to learn partnership. You want them to
35:46
Speaker 4: learn friendship, you want them to learn togetheredness. Everything that
35:50
Speaker 4: I started with this at the beginning is what you're
35:52
Speaker 4: role modeling on a daily basis.
35:54
Speaker 2: And we did not always do a great job of that.
35:55
Speaker 2: But you know, well, now they're out of the house,
35:57
Speaker 2: we're doing a really good job of it.
35:59
Speaker 1: Well my kids are, and they don't love when we
36:02
Speaker 1: go out, and I like to go out fairly often,
36:04
Speaker 1: and I think it's a good thing, yeah, for them
36:06
Speaker 1: to watch us, because I don't want them to grow
36:08
Speaker 1: up and think that you have to devote your entire
36:10
Speaker 1: life to just staying home with your kids. I mean,
36:12
Speaker 1: of course you have to prioritize your children, but I
36:15
Speaker 1: don't want them to just sit.
36:16
Speaker 2: Home, yeah with their kids. Yeah, No, I mean I
36:19
Speaker 2: think of.
36:21
Speaker 4: I was just going to say.
36:21
Speaker 3: The other thing is I hear literally daily, I hear
36:26
Speaker 3: when there's our problems in the marriage and people are
36:28
Speaker 3: at the verge of divorcing or feeling that they want
36:31
Speaker 3: to do something different.
36:32
Speaker 4: To staying in the marriage for the children. I hear
36:37
Speaker 4: every day all day.
36:38
Speaker 2: And when do you think if.
36:39
Speaker 3: They're older, when the kids are older, right when they
36:42
Speaker 3: go to college, then we'll reevaluate. But right now, we
36:45
Speaker 3: don't want to do that to the kids. We don't
36:46
Speaker 3: want to separate from the kids.
36:48
Speaker 2: What do you think of that?
36:51
Speaker 3: I mean, I always tell people that you can't be
36:55
Speaker 3: in a marriage for your children. You're wasting a lot
36:58
Speaker 3: of years. You got to look at your own happiness
37:02
Speaker 3: and you stay in a marriage for the things that
37:04
Speaker 3: you get from it. You don't stay in a marriage
37:06
Speaker 3: for the things that you're fearful of losing.
37:09
Speaker 2: Wow, I love that. I mean, I I just picturing
37:14
Speaker 2: scenarios where it is, you know, unhealthy for the kids
37:19
Speaker 2: to separate. I would think that is you have to
37:21
Speaker 2: prioritize that at some level, like even if you can coexist,
37:26
Speaker 2: then isn't that better for the kids then you know,
37:31
Speaker 2: a separated household.
37:33
Speaker 4: But I don't. I mean, again, I don't agree. Where's
37:35
Speaker 4: the role modeling? Then? What role modeling are you teaching
37:38
Speaker 4: your children at that point?
37:40
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of friends in unhappy marriages that
37:43
Speaker 1: just stay because the whole idea of being single again
37:46
Speaker 1: and living alone and honestly not seeing your kids all
37:51
Speaker 1: the time is completely overwhelming, and staying together in an
37:55
Speaker 1: unhappy relationship is just so much easier.
37:58
Speaker 4: People.
37:59
Speaker 1: I've heard quite often people say all men cheap. I
38:04
Speaker 1: happen to not think that's true, but realistically.
38:07
Speaker 2: Not everyone gets caught. How many relationships do you think
38:10
Speaker 2: that there is adultery?
38:12
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I think that there is a
38:16
Speaker 3: big percentage. I wish I had my my notes on
38:20
Speaker 3: me because I get asked this question all the time,
38:21
Speaker 3: and a fifty four I can't ever remember anything. So
38:25
Speaker 3: I mean, I definitely think there's a percentage that's you know,
38:28
Speaker 3: maybe twenty percent, but I think I don't think it's half.
38:31
Speaker 3: I think there are many men in this world that
38:34
Speaker 3: are committed and loving and kind and respectful and want
38:39
Speaker 3: the same thing as you know. But I also don't
38:42
Speaker 3: think it's the end all be all either, Right, So
38:45
Speaker 3: it happens, and if it happens, what are we going
38:48
Speaker 3: to do. We're going to go and we're going to
38:50
Speaker 3: make our relationship hopefully, we're going to nurture it, do
38:52
Speaker 3: the things I'm talking about, and we're going to move
38:55
Speaker 3: forward healthier, right, and happier, and we won't be the
38:58
Speaker 3: old US, but we'll.
38:59
Speaker 4: Be a new, anew US.
39:01
Speaker 3: That's that's you know, well and improved, and that's what
39:03
Speaker 3: we're looking for. So I don't know, I don't agree
39:07
Speaker 3: with that all men cheat, absolutely not meither thine.
39:10
Speaker 2: More men cheat than women. No, really really interesting, maybe
39:16
Speaker 2: not misdaining. Maybe back in the day it was different.
39:18
Speaker 3: But I can tell you if I think of my
39:21
Speaker 3: caseload right now, it's probably fifty to fifty.
39:24
Speaker 2: Wowly sally, Yeah, interesting.
39:27
Speaker 4: And that's my caseload.
39:28
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is, you know, with other people,
39:30
Speaker 3: but with what I what I see, I would say
39:33
Speaker 3: it's pretty equal. Okay, maybe maybe a slight tilt to
39:37
Speaker 3: the men, but not really that much, not that significantly.
39:41
Speaker 2: I have we have like we could go on and on,
39:42
Speaker 2: like I have questions that are like not even we
39:46
Speaker 2: haven't even touched upon, like women that I know that
39:49
Speaker 2: would never like Jeff walks into this house and I
39:52
Speaker 2: am Jackie. I think you're different. Like you've said to
39:56
Speaker 2: me that like he walks in, I don't think there's
39:58
Speaker 2: a day that he walks in that I'm not in sweat,
40:00
Speaker 2: that's my hair in a frizzy ponytail, no makeup, like
40:05
Speaker 2: in usually in bed with food on the crumbs on
40:08
Speaker 2: the And you said you don't. I remember you said
40:10
Speaker 2: this man don't matter when that you do always like
40:13
Speaker 2: to look put together with them.
40:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like to look put I mean not obviously,
40:16
Speaker 1: not when I'm going to bed, but yeah I'm not.
40:19
Speaker 1: I've just never been the type that walks around with
40:22
Speaker 1: like a scraggly pony in sweats.
40:23
Speaker 2: But that doesn't have to do with Evan, or doesn't.
40:25
Speaker 1: I mean, I also want to look attractive for him.
40:27
Speaker 1: I don't know, I like looking good for him, and
40:29
Speaker 1: he usually doesn't like bum around looking gross either.
40:34
Speaker 2: Well do you think that matters, Rob?
40:38
Speaker 3: I think it's it's it's yes, I mean I think
40:41
Speaker 3: that it's if we're looking sexually and we're looking.
40:44
Speaker 4: Physically, we need to get into sex.
40:47
Speaker 3: No, we did, and we missed the intimacy piece with
40:49
Speaker 3: women that are you know our age.
40:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, I have a healthy sex life, but like
40:54
Speaker 1: for a lot of women, they are between the child
40:57
Speaker 1: responsibilities and work and every else in life.
41:01
Speaker 2: Like it's just not doesn't happen. Well, Jack, we had
41:03
Speaker 2: a podcast about sex and we talked about the fact
41:06
Speaker 2: that there are you know, women not just on reality TV,
41:10
Speaker 2: but in general that's claimed they have sex, you know,
41:13
Speaker 2: not only multiple times a week, multiple times a night,
41:15
Speaker 2: and there's you know this a lot of sex talk.
41:18
Speaker 2: And it certainly at my age, Jack, maybe not as
41:20
Speaker 2: much as yours, but it is not a priority. Only
41:23
Speaker 2: after twenty years of marriages, there's just not a priority
41:26
Speaker 2: like it used to be. But you know, as you
41:27
Speaker 2: get to be our age, I know that for men
41:30
Speaker 2: at least, this is what I know. For my friends,
41:32
Speaker 2: this is not I'm not saying I know this for
41:34
Speaker 2: a fact, but they want Most of my friends, the
41:38
Speaker 2: husbands or the partners want sex a lot more than
41:41
Speaker 2: the women do. And how to kind of reconcile that, right,
41:46
Speaker 2: And how much does that affect a marriage if there's
41:48
Speaker 2: you know, as women get older physically you become it
41:52
Speaker 2: becomes less enjoyable, like period, right, unless you use hormones
41:55
Speaker 2: and all of that. But the cravings I think for women,
42:01
Speaker 2: the women that I know, definitely go down, right, And
42:05
Speaker 2: how to navigate that in a marriage or in a
42:07
Speaker 2: partnership too, I.
42:09
Speaker 4: Mean, I think it definitely women.
42:12
Speaker 3: Menopause definitely changes things a lot, but so does children, right, So,
42:17
Speaker 3: and so I think Jackie, you had asked this, I
42:21
Speaker 3: think ahead of time or someone asked me this about
42:24
Speaker 3: you know, scheduling sex, right, So sometimes it's not as
42:28
Speaker 3: much about how often.
42:30
Speaker 4: It's about making sure that it.
42:32
Speaker 3: Is a priority and fitting in as a balance with
42:35
Speaker 3: the other things that are important in our lives. And
42:37
Speaker 3: at different ages, there's different things that are priorities, right,
42:41
Speaker 3: So I think it just depends. But scheduling sex, to me,
42:44
Speaker 3: when you have crazy life and you have children, and
42:47
Speaker 3: you have activities and jobs and all those things, I
42:50
Speaker 3: don't care if you put it on the calendar. I
42:52
Speaker 3: think it's a healthy thing to do.
42:53
Speaker 1: Good because we quite often have to schedule sex, and
42:56
Speaker 1: I would absolutely. I've always wondered if that just just
43:00
Speaker 1: joys the intimacy that that part of it, Like we're
43:04
Speaker 1: like Thursday, nine thirty, can you we call it a
43:06
Speaker 1: conference call so that my kids, I hope my kids
43:08
Speaker 1: listen to.
43:08
Speaker 2: This, so that they don't, you know, die of embarrassment.
43:12
Speaker 2: But we do know.
43:14
Speaker 4: I think, yes, I think it's I think.
43:17
Speaker 2: And what do you do in the marriages where where
43:19
Speaker 2: the one of the partners wants it and so much
43:21
Speaker 2: more than the other. What, Just like.
43:28
Speaker 3: Everything else, I guess it's it's about we have to
43:32
Speaker 3: make sure that we're nurturing the other parts that create intimacy,
43:35
Speaker 3: the emotional, the physical, the affection, the conversation, the things
43:40
Speaker 3: that may be additionally fuel us in terms of how
43:44
Speaker 3: we feel, and with sex as well, and partners aren't
43:48
Speaker 3: going to be on the same page. So, like everything else,
43:51
Speaker 3: success in marriage is based on compromise, and it's based
43:54
Speaker 3: on an ability to vent our needs and our wants.
43:57
Speaker 3: That's the other main thing that keeps a marriage together
43:59
Speaker 3: is ability to vent and making sure that again we're
44:04
Speaker 3: putting ourselves in each other's subjective reality, right, shared meaning,
44:09
Speaker 3: and if something's more important to one person than the other.
44:12
Speaker 3: Then we need to find a compromise. So it's not
44:14
Speaker 3: all the time, it's a compromise.
44:15
Speaker 2: So is that saying because I would I hear like
44:19
Speaker 2: women in the back of my head saying you should
44:23
Speaker 2: never have sex if you don't feel like it, Like,
44:26
Speaker 2: I'm sure that a lot of that's probably a pretty
44:28
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't want to get myself in
44:30
Speaker 2: trouble here, but a little bit of a fit, right right? Yeah?
44:33
Speaker 2: And is it healthy to have sex because your partner
44:40
Speaker 2: really wants it and you want to make them happy physically,
44:46
Speaker 2: even if you're not in the mood.
44:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do think it's okay.
44:51
Speaker 3: So I might get about a backlash on this too,
44:54
Speaker 3: based on the world we live in today. But if
44:56
Speaker 3: I'm going from the perspective of shared meaning, and I'm
45:00
Speaker 3: going from a place of real love and a desire
45:03
Speaker 3: for connection, and I'm not saying all the time, but yes,
45:06
Speaker 3: if there is this a night and I'm absolutely exhausted
45:09
Speaker 3: or I had a terrible day and I'm in a
45:11
Speaker 3: terrible mood, am I then gonna force myself to do something?
45:15
Speaker 3: Probably not. But if it's just it's one of those
45:18
Speaker 3: nights and I just, you know, rather go to bed
45:21
Speaker 3: and my husband is into it. There's other things we
45:23
Speaker 3: can do to be intimate, right, we don't have to
45:26
Speaker 3: have sex. There are other things we can do physically
45:28
Speaker 3: and sexually without having intercourse.
45:31
Speaker 4: Other things that we can do.
45:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a whole lot of conversation with you, sister.
45:42
Speaker 2: I love this.
45:43
Speaker 1: I thought it was so good too. It makes me
45:45
Speaker 1: feel very fortunate. But I do recognize things that you know,
45:49
Speaker 1: Evan wants that I tell him to go do on
45:52
Speaker 1: his own, that I could probably give more of myself too.
45:56
Speaker 2: But also, like I don't like we have when we
46:01
Speaker 2: there are things like the football thing, Rob, that my
46:04
Speaker 2: husband is obsessed with football. Like I was never going
46:07
Speaker 2: to become a football wife. I wasn't gonna sit down,
46:11
Speaker 2: you know and watch football games on Sundays, but Robin
46:15
Speaker 2: mentioned that. Yes, Like more recently, I had a friend
46:18
Speaker 2: kind of explained to me. I was like, it just
46:19
Speaker 2: became a little more enjoyable that I could share that
46:21
Speaker 2: with him. But he also was never like he never
46:24
Speaker 2: gave me shit about it. Like Jeff. In his family,
46:27
Speaker 2: there have been Giant season Giants season tickets for since
46:31
Speaker 2: Jeff was a little boy. Right, there were eight of
46:33
Speaker 2: them and I went to one game. Now that maybe
46:37
Speaker 2: is a marriage counselor that wasn't ideal, But I don't
46:40
Speaker 2: really think he gave a shit. I think he almost
46:42
Speaker 2: would rather have me not there, like annoying him during it.
46:46
Speaker 2: But there are other things, Yeah.
46:48
Speaker 4: If you have to figure out what are those things?
46:51
Speaker 2: One the things he really wants me to do with him, right,
46:53
Speaker 2: there are things, And I think the travel thing is
46:55
Speaker 2: a good example, because he doesn't want to go see, uh,
47:01
Speaker 2: whatever the historical sites are if we're both traveling to
47:04
Speaker 2: a different country on his own and I want to
47:06
Speaker 2: see some of them of course, but so trying to
47:08
Speaker 2: find some compromise there. Yeah, right, well we've solved all
47:13
Speaker 2: the marriage problems in the world. Who our listeners must
47:15
Speaker 2: be so happy, everybody, go forth and have go geta yes,
47:22
Speaker 2: exactly exactly. Thank you, this is amazing. You're amazing.
47:27
Speaker 4: Good lung with you, guys. Thank you so much for
47:29
Speaker 4: having me.
47:30
Speaker 3: I appreciate it and love you, Robbie, love you so much, Bye, honey.
47:34
Speaker 2: So a few things.
47:35
Speaker 1: First of all, you know Tiki Barber was on the
47:37
Speaker 1: show for one season, yes, like right before you guys,
47:40
Speaker 1: came along. Yeah, Jeff would have liked that.
47:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff would have died he We
47:47
Speaker 2: were at Melissa Gorgo's for a Christmas Eve, I don't
47:51
Speaker 2: know how many years ago, and then not many, No
47:53
Speaker 2: Melissa for ten years but whatever, And there were these
47:56
Speaker 2: two football players and I don't even remember what those
48:01
Speaker 2: who are those football players at the Gorgas that Christmas?
48:05
Speaker 2: Oh justin talk? Oh you were there. No, I wasn't there,
48:08
Speaker 2: but I know that they were friendly with them. I
48:10
Speaker 2: think John John, Pierre Paul. Anyway, whatever, the point is that.
48:17
Speaker 1: The guy who he's the guy who blew off his
48:19
Speaker 1: finger with a firecracker.
48:20
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, see I do know football. Yeah whatever,
48:26
Speaker 2: oh on the Jets doesn't matter, It doesn't matter for
48:29
Speaker 2: our purposes. The point is that, I mean, my husband
48:33
Speaker 2: lit up like a Christmas tree. It was like me
48:37
Speaker 2: running into I don't know, mad Madonna. It was just
48:44
Speaker 2: so crazy, like his passion is it runs really really deep.
48:49
Speaker 2: I don't know what my point in that is other
48:50
Speaker 2: than he's obsessed and I really haven't been. And but
48:54
Speaker 2: there are other things like so I compromise on on
48:57
Speaker 2: what I can. I guess I know he compromises for sure. Yeah,
49:00
Speaker 2: like I am. I think I'm harder than he is.
49:03
Speaker 2: For instance, on the weekends, you know, Jeff is working
49:07
Speaker 2: all week and he likes to go out. I would
49:09
Speaker 2: rather on any day. I'd rather stay home like any night.
49:13
Speaker 2: So I won't go out two nights on a weekend
49:17
Speaker 2: unless we have like real plans.
49:18
Speaker 1: That is the exact opposite of my marriage. Yeah, and
49:21
Speaker 1: Evan likes to only go out like one time a week,
49:25
Speaker 1: which I respect you.
49:27
Speaker 2: I don't even want to go out sometimes once.
49:28
Speaker 1: He also coaches my kids basketball like all weekends and
49:32
Speaker 1: several nights a week. And I like to go out
49:37
Speaker 1: a lot, at least I don't.
49:40
Speaker 2: If you look at my social media, it seems that
49:42
Speaker 2: I like to go out a lot, but I don't.
49:44
Speaker 2: I really, I really am a homebody. But I will
49:47
Speaker 2: make myself get up and either make plans or go
49:51
Speaker 2: out just because he wants you. That's not even a
49:53
Speaker 2: great example. But there's so many compromises that I think
49:56
Speaker 2: that we've you know, learned to make over the years,
49:59
Speaker 2: and we are not. I don't want to, you know,
50:02
Speaker 2: represent us as the poster children for an ideal marriage.
50:06
Speaker 2: We have our we still obviously after all these years.
50:09
Speaker 2: We have a lot of stuff, like everyone does.
50:11
Speaker 1: But it's yeah, but I can tell by the way
50:14
Speaker 1: that you talk about your husband.
50:15
Speaker 2: I can.
50:16
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had plenty of conversations with my girlfriends
50:18
Speaker 1: about their husbands, and I can just sense when there's
50:20
Speaker 1: just constant frustration or when there's the occasional frustration, but
50:24
Speaker 1: so much love.
50:25
Speaker 2: And you and Jeff love each other so much.
50:26
Speaker 1: Which is amazing to me because I always grew up
50:29
Speaker 1: with this mindset of like, you cheat, it's over right,
50:32
Speaker 1: you know, And I think young girls are kind of
50:34
Speaker 1: taught that, like your spouse cheats on you and it's done.
50:39
Speaker 2: I feel very lucky about that. And I can't really
50:44
Speaker 2: explain how we got here. I just feel lucky that
50:46
Speaker 2: we did. But I would say that more than anything,
50:50
Speaker 2: And it's the first thing that Robin pointed to. We
50:53
Speaker 2: are best friends and he we are allies, so not
50:57
Speaker 2: you know, doesn't mean that we don't have that we
50:59
Speaker 2: don't fight, but when something happens, you know, big, not
51:05
Speaker 2: always small. But but he's my always, my first phone
51:08
Speaker 2: call when I'm upset, when I'm I mean, girlfriends are different, right,
51:12
Speaker 2: There are things that I can talk to my girlfriends
51:14
Speaker 2: about that. I wouldn't talk to Jeff about But in general,
51:17
Speaker 2: like you know, we're just we're a team, and that
51:22
Speaker 2: is what I hope. I hope, hope, hope for my
51:24
Speaker 2: kids if they find someone and who can you know,
51:28
Speaker 2: be on the team with them, and I hope they
51:31
Speaker 2: have wonderful intimate relationships. But from where I sit, it's
51:37
Speaker 2: the most important thing is to feel that friendship. You know. Yeah,
51:41
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I love this. I love it too. Yeah,
51:44
Speaker 2: so it's good, all right, you guys. We are two
51:48
Speaker 2: Jersey days now. I was gonna say, I'm gonna go
51:50
Speaker 2: home and have sex with my husband, but I mean,
51:52
Speaker 2: I don't know how that led to this. So I'm
51:53
Speaker 2: gonna go, I'm gonna I'm gonna get off the phone
51:55
Speaker 2: and uh definitely not have sex with my husband, but
51:58
Speaker 2: I'll compromise in another way today.
52:00
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're two Jersey jays. Thank you for listening,
52:03
Speaker 1: Thanks guys for showing you.
52:05
Speaker 2: Bye mm
52:11
Speaker 3: Hm hm