Latest / Story Magic / 64 - Making intentional writing choices with Kat Caldwell

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64 - Making intentional writing choices with Kat Caldwell · Story Magic

• 2:28
  Rachel: Hey, writers.
• 2:28
  Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Rachel: I'm Rachel.
• 2:33
  Emily: And I'm Emily.
• 2:34
  Rachel: And today we are interviewing a good friend of ours, author and coach Kat Caldwell.
• 2:39
  Rachel: Kat, thank you so much for coming.
• 2:41
  Emily: Welcome.
• 2:43
  Kat Caldwell: Thanks for having me.
• 2:44
  Rachel: Oh, we are so glad to have you.
• 2:46
  Rachel: We were on your podcast, pencils and lipstick, a couple months ago, so we are so excited to have you on story magic to chat, introduce you to our listeners, get to know you a little bit better.
• 2:57
  Rachel: So we had such a great time on your side, and now we get to have you on our side, and it's going to be a fun chat.
• 3:02
  Kat Caldwell: Yes.
• 3:03
  Rachel: Yay. I already mentioned you're the host of pencils and lipstick, but to introduce you and to welcome you on the show, could you take a minute or two, tell us a little about yourself and the work that you do and what you write?
• 3:17
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
• 3:21
  Kat Caldwell: I'm a book coach.
• 3:22
  Kat Caldwell: I guess that's the title that we give ourselves these days.
• 3:27
  Kat Caldwell: Cause I work one on one with people, or I love doing developmental edits.
• 3:32
  Kat Caldwell: When you're at that point as a writer and you're like, I don't know if this is any good, somebody please read it.
• 3:38
  Kat Caldwell: I love doing that and sort of working with people, but I also love one on one.
• 3:42
  Kat Caldwell: I don't know.
• 3:43
  Kat Caldwell: I like talking about stories.
• 3:45
  Kat Caldwell: I also write stories.
• 3:47
  Kat Caldwell: I don't do the thing that you're supposed to do.
• 3:50
  Kat Caldwell: I don't keep in one genre, you know, started out that way, and I guess I'm staying that way.
• 3:57
  Kat Caldwell: So I have historical romance and I have contemporary fiction, which is kind of my go to.
• 4:03
  Kat Caldwell: So I have two coming out in the fall with that.
• 4:05
  Kat Caldwell: And then I love short stories, so I write those as well.
• 4:08
  Kat Caldwell: And they bring no money, they just bring joy.
• 4:13
  Emily: I'm so impressed.
• 4:14
  Emily: I'm always impressed by people who write short stories.
• 4:17
  Emily: Blows my mind.
• 4:18
  Rachel: I was just going to say we're going to have to circle back around to talking about the short stories because both of us are like, we're interested in them, but I don't know.
• 4:27
  Rachel: We're used to long form.
• 4:31
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, it's a different way.
• 4:33
  Kat Caldwell: It's definitely a different way to write.
• 4:36
  Rachel: I've been on a novella kick.
• 4:38
  Rachel: I've been reading, and when I say a kick, I mean I've read like 100 novellas in the last couple, and they're all from one author specifically, who's very good at them.
• 4:49
  Rachel: And it's like, led me to believe falsely that I could do this right where I'm like, I can write a novella.
• 4:54
  Rachel: These are so great.
• 4:56
  Kat Caldwell: You have to stick to one storyline and very few side characters.
• 5:03
  Rachel: Yeah, that's a challenge.
• 5:05
  Rachel: So I want to talk about that.
• 5:08
  Rachel: But one of the things that I had written down to ask you about, actually a great tie into what you just said of, like, we're.
• 5:16
  Rachel: We're coaches.
• 5:16
  Emily: We do this.
• 5:17
  Rachel: We. We got to this point of, we just want to talk about stories.
• 5:21
  Rachel: Right.
• 5:22
  Rachel: So I was going to ask you, like, what took you from author or writer interested in being in the story world to deciding to coach?
• 5:32
  Kat Caldwell: Ah, that's a good question.
• 5:34
  Kat Caldwell: Oh, my goodness.
• 5:36
  Kat Caldwell: I think so.
• 5:37
  Kat Caldwell: I'm someone who always wanted to be a writer.
• 5:40
  Kat Caldwell: I just never thought that it was viable.
• 5:45
  Emily: I think there's a lot of people like that.
• 5:47
  Emily: Yes.
• 5:48
  Kat Caldwell: I think all of our parents were like, no. And I almost went down the magazine route, but I moved to Europe when I got married.
• 6:02
  Kat Caldwell: I got married fairly young at 26, and we moved over there.
• 6:08
  Kat Caldwell: Then the crash happened, and it hit Spain pretty hard.
• 6:12
  Kat Caldwell: So I went back to writing.
• 6:14
  Kat Caldwell: But over the years, like, you know, fast forward to, like, 2017, when I finally decided to self publish, I published it, and I realized that I was so nervous for people to read it.
• 6:30
  Kat Caldwell: Really nervous, because I knew that I could write a story story, but I wasn't sure I could write a book.
• 6:38
  Kat Caldwell: Like, there's just, you know, I was smart enough to get advice from an author.
• 6:45
  Kat Caldwell: So a friend of a friend knew an author who was kind enough to probably read, like, I don't know what she read.
• 6:51
  Kat Caldwell: I sent the whole thing, but I'm guessing, like, 50 pages if.
• 6:54
  Kat Caldwell: And she wrote back.
• 6:55
  Kat Caldwell: It was like, cut 40,000 words.
• 6:57
  Kat Caldwell: And, like, that was the only thing that she said.
• 6:59
  Kat Caldwell: Oh, my gosh.
• 7:01
  Kat Caldwell: And she was right.
• 7:02
  Kat Caldwell: Like, it was a. It's a historical romance at 120,000 words.
• 7:05
  Kat Caldwell: Like, I would.
• 7:06
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, I had read all the, like, the romances from the seventies, which are, like, this thick.
• 7:10
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, life has changed.
• 7:14
  Kat Caldwell: So that started, you know, between not knowing how to sell it but also being, like, embarrassed because just not knowing, like, that.
• 7:23
  Kat Caldwell: That fear of not knowing, is it any good?
• 7:26
  Kat Caldwell: Every time someone said they were reading my book, I was like, yeah, you know, and that's a terrible feeling.
• 7:33
  Kat Caldwell: I mean, it got good.
• 7:35
  Kat Caldwell: Good enough reviews, but I was like, you're still very anxious about it.
• 7:41
  Kat Caldwell: And so I had a couple other story ideas, and I was really one the next one, which is just random.
• 7:49
  Kat Caldwell: It started out as a short story, and it's kind of like a retell.
• 7:54
  Kat Caldwell: Like, it's not in retelling, but it goes along the mythological, you know, storytelling path doesn't sell at all because people don't know what to do with it.
• 8:01
  Kat Caldwell: I don't know what to do with it.
• 8:02
  Kat Caldwell: I just have fun writing it.
• 8:04
  Kat Caldwell: And then the next one, I was like, I don't actually know what I'm doing with this story.
• 8:07
  Kat Caldwell: Which was kind of scary.
• 8:09
  Kat Caldwell: Like, okay, how did I write two?
• 8:09
  Kat Caldwell: And now I don't know what I'm doing, which is when I started pencils and lipstick as an excuse to talk to other writers.
• 8:20
  Kat Caldwell: What are you doing?
• 8:20
  Kat Caldwell: Like, a, on the selling and, like, the imposter syndrome, and then b, on, like, why can't I write this story?
• 8:29
  Kat Caldwell: Like, this is really hard.
• 8:32
  Kat Caldwell: And that.
• 8:32
  Kat Caldwell: So that was great.
• 8:34
  Kat Caldwell: I was still trying to write, and I was doing the podcast, and then Covid hit, and we moved from Texas to DC.
• 8:42
  Kat Caldwell: That was just a mess.
• 8:44
  Kat Caldwell: So I decided to.
• 8:46
  Kat Caldwell: I finally finished that third book, and I decided to study the craft.
• 8:51
  Kat Caldwell: I just read all throughout Covid of just, you know, because two weeks turned into, like, five years or.
• 8:57
  Rachel: Right.
• 8:58
  Kat Caldwell: I don't know how long.
• 8:59
  Kat Caldwell: How long did that thing last?
• 9:00
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, I should probably.
• 9:03
  Kat Caldwell: I think it also comes a little with age where you, like, your humility, like, rises a little.
• 9:09
  Kat Caldwell: I was like, I should probably maybe learn and read some books.
• 9:13
  Kat Caldwell: And so it was just a long, convoluted way to it.
• 9:19
  Kat Caldwell: I started writing about writing, and people responded well.
• 9:23
  Kat Caldwell: And then I kind of wanted to put a name to a lot of things that I knew in my gut.
• 9:28
  Kat Caldwell: And so I went and got certified through author accelerator, which I think any certification program has lots of great and maybe a little kind of whatever, you know, opinion.
• 9:43
  Kat Caldwell: It's not bad.
• 9:44
  Kat Caldwell: It's just opinion.
• 9:46
  Kat Caldwell: So. And they're all fine.
• 9:47
  Kat Caldwell: I think it just helps you give, like, lower your imposter syndrome on that and give certain words to, you know, like, the structure and the, you know, the different things, the point of views and things that you're looking for.
• 10:01
  Kat Caldwell: So that was just sort of like a chunk by chunk way that I started doing it, and people would ask me to help them.
• 10:10
  Kat Caldwell: And I guess I just wanted.
• 10:13
  Kat Caldwell: I wanted that, like, certification that I could, because I also noticed during COVID that lots of people were, like, all developmental, like, editing your book.
• 10:22
  Kat Caldwell: And I was like, who are you?
• 10:24
  Kat Caldwell: Why are you doing this?
• 10:24
  Kat Caldwell: And a lot of people I know had really terrible experiences.
• 10:28
  Kat Caldwell: I was like, that's okay.
• 10:30
  Kat Caldwell: I want to distinguish myself a little bit so that like, you know, that was a long.
• 10:34
  Kat Caldwell: It was like seven years was, like, until now, you know?
• 10:37
  Kat Caldwell: But.
• 10:38
  Kat Caldwell: So I guess I started officially doing it in 2022.
• 10:42
  Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's.
• 10:44
  Rachel: I mean, I feel like this journey sounds so similar to ours in heart, where you're a writer, this is, like, what you want your life to be.
• 10:54
  Rachel: And there's a passion.
• 10:56
  Rachel: Like, that's the word that I kept thinking about when I was hearing you speak, is.
• 11:00
  Rachel: It's clear that this is a passion for you.
• 11:03
  Rachel: And we feel the same way, that this is like a.
• 11:05
  Rachel: You can't let it go.
• 11:06
  Rachel: Like, you have to.
• 11:07
  Rachel: It's like, I live and breathe it now.
• 11:09
  Kat Caldwell: Yes.
• 11:10
  Rachel: And you start to learn a little bit more, and you get that language, like the terminology and this and the boundaries of what craft is.
• 11:19
  Rachel: And then out of that stems, like, well, I learned how to do this, and I can help other people learn how to do this, and then we can all do it together.
• 11:27
  Rachel: That would be super fun, and it.
• 11:29
  Kat Caldwell: Would be great to have really well crafted books.
• 11:33
  Kat Caldwell: And I don't mean, like, Pulitzer Prize winning books, because every book is so different, but I hated that so many books have potential.
• 11:44
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 11:44
  Kat Caldwell: And you're just like, if you would just add some dialogue, you know, or, like, if you would just like, there's just a little tweak enough that you're like, this could be.
• 11:55
  Kat Caldwell: This is a great story premise.
• 11:57
  Kat Caldwell: Let's just cut 40,000 words.
• 12:00
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 12:04
  Emily: I love how you said, too, like, you wrote those first two books, and it wasn't the books that was the challenge.
• 12:10
  Emily: It was your belief in them because you weren't really sure, like, what if they were working, you know, and how they were working.
• 12:18
  Emily: And I think that that is so common.
• 12:20
  Emily: Right.
• 12:21
  Emily: Like, so many writers write something and it's getting good reception, but they can't.
• 12:26
  Kat Caldwell: It's.
• 12:26
  Emily: They struggle to believe it because they don't know why it works.
• 12:29
  Emily: And I think that's one of the reasons to learn about craft, which is really, as we talk about a lot.
• 12:36
  Emily: Right.
• 12:36
  Emily: Just understanding what readers expect and what readers are looking for.
• 12:39
  Emily: So you can understand if you're meeting those expectations and we don't talk enough about, like, that positive side of learning craft, like, so that you can understand what you're already doing well and, like, have the confidence that, yeah, you wrote a really bad book.
• 12:55
  Kat Caldwell: Yes. I always say, like, to make the decision on purpose because I think that helps against the reviews.
• 13:03
  Kat Caldwell: If you've purposely learned something and then chosen to do it in a certain way, that review that says, I don't like how they did this.
• 13:13
  Kat Caldwell: You're going to be like, that's fine, I don't care.
• 13:15
  Kat Caldwell: But if you didn't do it on purpose, you're like, oh, I did something wrong.
• 13:20
  Emily: Yeah.
• 13:21
  Kat Caldwell: And you might not have, you know, so that just works for me, understanding that, like, which reviews I can listen to and which to discard and just.
• 13:29
  Rachel: Be like, yes, that's incredibly helpful.
• 13:33
  Rachel: Is there?
• 13:33
  Rachel: I, my book came out in April and I self published as well.
• 13:37
  Rachel: And so it's been great.
• 13:39
  Rachel: It's, I've had lots of positive reviews, but every once in a while you get that review where you're like, oh, I did that on purpose.
• 13:45
  Rachel: And you are not for me.
• 13:47
  Rachel: Like, you are not my ideal reader.
• 13:49
  Rachel: I'm not for you.
• 13:49
  Rachel: That's okay.
• 13:51
  Rachel: We'll move on.
• 13:52
  Kat Caldwell: Yes, we will move on for you.
• 13:54
  Rachel: That's okay.
• 13:55
  Rachel: Or I also feel like it's super fun in that same a positive is when I'll get DM's from readers that are like, oh, I really wish you would have done this instead.
• 14:08
  Rachel: And I'm like, ah, I totally get that.
• 14:10
  Rachel: And I thought about it and here's why I didn't.
• 14:12
  Rachel: And then they're like, yeah, you're so right.
• 14:14
  Rachel: Because I love talking with my readers and I love when they dm me their crazy theories and their questions and their reactions.
• 14:23
  Rachel: And then I get to be like, well, this is why I didn't do it that way.
• 14:26
  Rachel: And I think that's, it's not, it's not like an explanation or a defense.
• 14:30
  Rachel: It's like I feel like a fan of my own story that I get to debate it or like discuss it with people because I made that choice on purpose.
• 14:38
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 14:39
  Kat Caldwell: That's a good point too, though, that just even to have that, I think that helps both of them.
• 14:44
  Kat Caldwell: Help your imposter syndrome, right?
• 14:44
  Kat Caldwell: Because even if another reader is positive about it, if you, if you know for sure that you are comfortable with it and you did it on purpose, you, you're gonna lower that.
• 14:58
  Kat Caldwell: Like, oh, I did something wrong?
• 15:00
  Kat Caldwell: Freak out.
• 15:01
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 15:02
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah. I hadn't thought of that, but I like that.
• 15:04
  Kat Caldwell: I'm going to keep that too.
• 15:05
  Rachel: Yeah, I like it.
• 15:08
  Rachel: I'm always asking people like, oh, tell me what you think and then I can explain to you why I did.
• 15:13
  Rachel: I don't know.
• 15:14
  Kat Caldwell: Let's talk about the story.
• 15:15
  Rachel: Let's talk about it.
• 15:17
  Rachel: I'm like, people are like, I am sorry for dming you.
• 15:20
  Rachel: All my things.
• 15:21
  Rachel: I'm like, don't ever stop dming me.
• 15:23
  Kat Caldwell: Yes. Let's have a book club of my book.
• 15:25
  Kat Caldwell: Yes.
• 15:26
  Rachel: Ridiculous. Yeah. But anyway, yeah.
• 15:30
  Rachel: That, I think, makes a ton of sense.
• 15:32
  Rachel: And as coaches, I feel like it's our job to empower people to be able to make those choices and then just to support them in those choices, too, even if they're not the same choices that we would have made, because.
• 15:44
  Kat Caldwell: That's right.
• 15:45
  Rachel: I was just talking with a writer last week who was terrified, like, a. She was a perspective client and, like, interested in coaching in general, but terrified that someone was going to tell her.
• 15:58
  Rachel: It has to be a certain way.
• 16:00
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 16:01
  Rachel: And I was like, I. We don't.
• 16:03
  Rachel: That's not what we do.
• 16:04
  Rachel: Like, that's not what I think successful coaches do.
• 16:08
  Rachel: We explain to you, like, this is what this means.
• 16:11
  Rachel: This is what this, you know, how these decisions might play out, but at the end of the day, like, I think as coaches, we are the biggest cheerleaders for our clients to help them feel empowered to make those choices and then be able to hold on to them later, even in the midst of, like, oh, that review sucks.
• 16:27
  Rachel: But I still feel good about that choice.
• 16:29
  Kat Caldwell: Yes. Yeah. Because there's a million ways to tell the same story.
• 16:33
  Kat Caldwell: There really are.
• 16:35
  Kat Caldwell: So I was reading the enigma of room 622 the other day.
• 16:41
  Kat Caldwell: So it's a really.
• 16:41
  Kat Caldwell: It's a european writer, so I write.
• 16:44
  Kat Caldwell: I read very eclectically, too, because I kind of want to see.
• 16:47
  Kat Caldwell: And european writers write really differently than american writers.
• 16:51
  Kat Caldwell: And so there were a couple things that I was like, I don't think I would do that like that.
• 16:54
  Kat Caldwell: Like, I wouldn't.
• 16:56
  Kat Caldwell: I wouldn't have written it like that.
• 16:58
  Kat Caldwell: But there's nothing wrong with the way that he wrote it.
• 17:01
  Kat Caldwell: Like, it was still intriguing and it's still.
• 17:03
  Kat Caldwell: So if you can kind of get over that and you're like, there's a million ways to write that story.
• 17:09
  Kat Caldwell: It's a mystery.
• 17:10
  Kat Caldwell: And it was interesting the way he did it, but I also don't ever want to tell my clients, there are a couple things that every story needs.
• 17:21
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 17:24
  Kat Caldwell: I'm of the opinion that they all need conflict of some kind.
• 17:27
  Kat Caldwell: Some people argue with me on that.
• 17:30
  Kat Caldwell: They need a character development, a character arc.
• 17:33
  Kat Caldwell: They need something happening to them and pushing them.
• 17:35
  Kat Caldwell: But after that, it's like, I don't know, they could change this much or they could change this much.
• 17:44
  Kat Caldwell: Like, it really depends and even, like, the point of view of how you're telling it.
• 17:49
  Kat Caldwell: So Terry Hayes writes thrillers, but it's like, first person, but he's telling the story of, like, everyone's story.
• 17:59
  Kat Caldwell: And so, like, that's a really interesting way to say it, too, where it's like, if you're deeply point of view, you're only in that, you know, the one character story.
• 18:08
  Kat Caldwell: So, gosh, there's so many ways to write the story and to write it well, as long as you, like, you have that beginning, middle, and end.
• 18:17
  Kat Caldwell: I feel like that's really what we're doing, is helping people a get to the middle, then get through the middle, and then get to the end, and then make sure that the beginning is the beginning they want and, you know, and all the little things in between.
• 18:33
  Kat Caldwell: I don't know my clients pretty much.
• 18:35
  Kat Caldwell: I always give them credit.
• 18:36
  Kat Caldwell: Like, you came up with that as we were talking, because, you know, you know what you want to do.
• 18:40
  Kat Caldwell: You know what your story is.
• 18:42
  Kat Caldwell: You just need that sort of confirmation that.
• 18:45
  Kat Caldwell: That your gut is correct, you know?
• 18:48
  Kat Caldwell: And there's.
• 18:49
  Kat Caldwell: There's a few things where I'm like, oh, let's think about this, or, you know, that they have to learn, but more or less story wise, I, in my experience, their gut is right.
• 18:58
  Kat Caldwell: They just need somebody to be like, yeah, do it.
• 19:01
  Rachel: Yes.
• 19:01
  Kat Caldwell: Go write it.
• 19:03
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 19:03
  Emily: Yeah. In our, in our writing community, tenacious writing, we're doing a book club for craft in the real world by.
• 19:12
  Emily: Is it Matthew?
• 19:13
  Rachel: Matthew Selasis?
• 19:13
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 19:15
  Emily: Yeah. And that's, like, the whole premise of the book, right?
• 19:19
  Emily: Is there's.
• 19:20
  Emily: There are so many different ways to tell stories, and the ways that we tell stories are mired in culture, and it all comes down to, like, your audience and who you're writing for and the types of stories that they consume.
• 19:30
  Emily: And.
• 19:31
  Emily: And I like what you said.
• 19:32
  Emily: Like, you would have done it differently because you come with different expectations for stories that that story, the european story.
• 19:40
  Emily: But, like, you know, maybe there's readers elsewhere who that, you know, fits their expectations.
• 19:45
  Emily: And it's just such an interesting way of craft, is just understanding what your readers are looking for and, like, how you're going to go about feeling that or not feeling that and being intentional about it.
• 19:58
  Emily: Like, it just comes back to that intentionality.
• 20:00
  Emily: I love that.
• 20:02
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 20:02
  Emily: Such a good book if people haven't read it.
• 20:04
  Rachel: Yeah, I remember that book.
• 20:07
  Rachel: Like, I need to.
• 20:09
  Rachel: I'm gonna reread it for a book club, but I have read it before, and I remember that book feeling like a slap in the face in a really good way.
• 20:15
  Rachel: Does that align to, like, what you remember of reading it now?
• 20:18
  Rachel: Emily?
• 20:19
  Emily: Yes. It's very much like.
• 20:21
  Emily: And I haven't.
• 20:22
  Emily: I started reading it the first time you read it, but I didn't finish it.
• 20:24
  Emily: There's, like, two sections.
• 20:26
  Emily: There's.
• 20:26
  Emily: The first half is about.
• 20:27
  Emily: Is for writers, and the second half is for people who teach workshops, and I never got to that part, and so I really want to get to that part so I can, you know, read what he says about that.
• 20:36
  Emily: But, yeah, the whole, like, introduction is just this big slap in the face of, like, there are no rules.
• 20:41
  Emily: And if basically, you know, you're subjecting yourself to, you know, western worlds, like, following it, falling into western world problems by saying that there are rules and.
• 20:56
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, it's really, really good.
• 21:00
  Emily: Have you read it, Kat?
• 21:01
  Kat Caldwell: I haven't.
• 21:02
  Kat Caldwell: I'm gonna have to pick it up because I don't know about you guys.
• 21:05
  Kat Caldwell: If you're in, like, with other coaches and with other developmental editors, we do get stuck in this, like, rule.
• 21:11
  Kat Caldwell: And I think because I straddle the fence of european, so I read in other languages as well, and then, like, American English or British English, but everyone's always surprised when I'm like, head hopping is a thing in Europe, and no one cares.
• 21:30
  Kat Caldwell: So to get on your high horse about head hopping in America, like, again, like, it kind of goes to the author of that book.
• 21:38
  Kat Caldwell: Like, if your readers hate it, you're gonna either have to find new readers or change the way you write.
• 21:45
  Kat Caldwell: But it's not like it's.
• 21:46
  Kat Caldwell: But it's not a rule that it's a rule.
• 21:49
  Kat Caldwell: You know what I mean?
• 21:49
  Kat Caldwell: Like, it's.
• 21:51
  Kat Caldwell: You're gonna have to make a choice.
• 21:53
  Kat Caldwell: Either do it or don't do it, but.
• 21:56
  Kat Caldwell: And then, like, let the consequences fall as they may.
• 21:59
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 22:00
  Kat Caldwell: It's just like, how it is.
• 22:01
  Kat Caldwell: Or, like.
• 22:02
  Kat Caldwell: Like, the.
• 22:03
  Kat Caldwell: They're not k pop, but the k dramas now, you know?
• 22:06
  Kat Caldwell: Like, those are really different.
• 22:08
  Kat Caldwell: And it's interesting to watch how the story plays out and, you know, and like you said, it's just because we have different cultural expectations and.
• 22:17
  Kat Caldwell: But it's so fun.
• 22:19
  Emily: Yeah, I was just reading the part.
• 22:22
  Emily: I was just reading the part this morning where he talks about how the western world's, like, focus on individual agency is very, like, american.
• 22:33
  Kat Caldwell: Like, James Bond saved the world.
• 22:37
  Emily: That's the craft that we teach.
• 22:39
  Emily: And so I was a little like.
• 22:41
  Emily: But they talk about how in certain cultures, especially in cultures where people don't have a lot of personal agency, that a lot of their stories rely on external agencies.
• 22:54
  Emily: So, basically, like, I always get that latin phrase.
• 22:57
  Kat Caldwell: Wrong.
• 22:58
  Emily: The. Like, the machina phrase they use.
• 23:00
  Rachel: Ex machina.
• 23:01
  Emily: Yes. Where it's basically like God comes in and just, like, does something.
• 23:04
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 23:04
  Rachel: God at the machine.
• 23:06
  Emily: Yes. That. That is like a. That's a tool that people use in other cultures in their storytelling, because that's their experience of life.
• 23:15
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 23:16
  Emily: And I just thought that was, like, really interesting and important to remember.
• 23:19
  Emily: Like, this is what Rachel and I teach, but that doesn't mean, like, that's, you know, there are no rules.
• 23:24
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah. I mean, because we're mostly teaching for western writers and to western readers.
• 23:30
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 23:31
  Kat Caldwell: But it is always interesting to like.
• 23:33
  Kat Caldwell: Or, like, in the.
• 23:37
  Kat Caldwell: Most of the indian authors that I've read have a very, like, narrative way of writing it.
• 23:44
  Kat Caldwell: Like that very.
• 23:46
  Kat Caldwell: A lot of times omniscient, but not always, but just.
• 23:49
  Kat Caldwell: It's like they're just telling a story.
• 23:53
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 23:54
  Kat Caldwell: And then it ends, you know, and that's a really, like, almost like the classic sometimes, too.
• 24:01
  Kat Caldwell: I mean, not pride and prejudice, but, like, some of the other classics that were such a drudge as a high schooler, I think.
• 24:06
  Kat Caldwell: Because you were, like, you know, so hyped up on being a high schooler, you know, like.
• 24:12
  Kat Caldwell: But it's.
• 24:12
  Kat Caldwell: It's interesting.
• 24:13
  Kat Caldwell: So you just have to decide, like.
• 24:15
  Kat Caldwell: Like, are you following this person through a really interesting part of their life where they're changing, or is this just like this happened?
• 24:25
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 24:26
  Kat Caldwell: And the end, you know, like.
• 24:28
  Kat Caldwell: And you're gonna have.
• 24:30
  Kat Caldwell: That will affect everything else.
• 24:31
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 24:31
  Kat Caldwell: The readership and the.
• 24:33
  Kat Caldwell: And the marketing and all that.
• 24:35
  Kat Caldwell: But as we've said, it just.
• 24:37
  Kat Caldwell: You just have to make that choice on purpose and then go from there.
• 24:42
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 24:43
  Emily: There's even a line where he.
• 24:45
  Emily: In this book where.
• 24:46
  Emily: And we can move on for the big.
• 24:48
  Emily: Where he's like, character is a construct.
• 24:51
  Emily: Like, the concept of a character is made up and we all buy into it.
• 24:56
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 24:56
  Emily: But it's just.
• 24:58
  Emily: We just.
• 24:59
  Emily: We're all making this stuff up, you guys.
• 25:01
  Kat Caldwell: We really are.
• 25:03
  Emily: So this is for all my writers out there who are terrified that they're doing something wrong and that they're breaking all the rules.
• 25:11
  Kat Caldwell: You're not, like, if you sit back and think of some of our stories that we grow up with, you know, like, they're weird.
• 25:18
  Kat Caldwell: If you just look at it really calmly, like, very detached, like, but I love it.
• 25:25
  Kat Caldwell: They're weird.
• 25:26
  Kat Caldwell: And it's weird psychology that we're like, yeah, Pinocchio's made out of wood, but he totally.
• 25:31
  Kat Caldwell: His nose grew.
• 25:32
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 25:32
  Rachel: Yeah. Right.
• 25:34
  Kat Caldwell: I believe it.
• 25:38
  Kat Caldwell: If we can believe that.
• 25:39
  Kat Caldwell: You know, I can write almost anything.
• 25:42
  Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. So all three of us have kids, and they're at different ages, but my daughter right now is almost four, and in the last couple months, she.
• 25:54
  Rachel: I mean, her imagination has always been just incredible.
• 25:57
  Rachel: Like, she is.
• 25:59
  Rachel: She's brilliant.
• 26:00
  Rachel: But in the last couple months, she has really latched on to telling stories, and, like, they just.
• 26:08
  Rachel: They're.
• 26:09
  Rachel: They go on forever, and they lack.
• 26:11
  Rachel: They lack everything, right?
• 26:13
  Rachel: Like, but they're.
• 26:14
  Rachel: So I look at her and I'm like, that is the type of wonder that we should have when we're playing with story.
• 26:20
  Rachel: Like, it doesn't matter.
• 26:21
  Rachel: She tells the story of the teeny tiny woman and the teeny tiny woman who, like, gets a banana.
• 26:28
  Rachel: But, oh, wait, it has to be more exciting than a banana.
• 26:30
  Rachel: So it's a rock.
• 26:31
  Rachel: And, like, she just makes this stuff.
• 26:34
  Kat Caldwell: That's awesome.
• 26:35
  Rachel: I love it.
• 26:36
  Rachel: And I look at her, and I'm like, I always am.
• 26:39
  Rachel: Like, that is the most amazing story I've ever heard.
• 26:42
  Rachel: Like, this is the coolest story I've ever heard because she just makes it up, and she just has fun on the spot.
• 26:49
  Kat Caldwell: That's so cute.
• 26:50
  Kat Caldwell: I love it.
• 26:51
  Rachel: Yay. Some of the time, she's, like, just trying to not go to bed, and she's like, mom, I'll tell you a story.
• 26:57
  Rachel: So how long can I make this story?
• 27:00
  Rachel: But it's just, like, incredibly imaginative, and she has no rules.
• 27:07
  Rachel: It can be anything.
• 27:08
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, right, right.
• 27:10
  Kat Caldwell: I love that.
• 27:11
  Kat Caldwell: And it really depends.
• 27:12
  Kat Caldwell: If you're writing for four year olds, you might not need any rules.
• 27:17
  Kat Caldwell: They're fine.
• 27:17
  Rachel: They're fine.
• 27:18
  Kat Caldwell: Like, dogs can be blue or red and as big as a house.
• 27:22
  Kat Caldwell: That's totally believable.
• 27:24
  Kat Caldwell: And my daughter, like, would talk about how she flew up to the roof today and salvaged the kickball when she was four and then flew back down.
• 27:33
  Rachel: That's amazing.
• 27:34
  Kat Caldwell: And do with that what you will.
• 27:40
  Kat Caldwell: You're super.
• 27:43
  Rachel: I love it.
• 27:45
  Rachel: So, yeah, I mean, I. I love that we are like, this is this.
• 27:49
  Rachel: I want to title this episode.
• 27:51
  Rachel: Like, just make sure to, like, with castles.
• 27:54
  Kat Caldwell: Yes, do it.
• 27:57
  Rachel: But, I mean, that's.
• 27:58
  Rachel: That's really the.
• 28:00
  Rachel: What I feel like all of us have seen in our.
• 28:02
  Rachel: In our clients and in our.
• 28:03
  Rachel: In our author practice, too, is that when you feel constrained by the rules, you end up losing, like, the purpose of why they're there to help you in the first place.
• 28:14
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 28:15
  Rachel: And then it just becomes, like, the limiting, the limiter, the unhelpful boundary.
• 28:26
  Rachel: Sometimes boundaries are helpful, but in this case, I'm thinking of it more as, when you're trying to prescribe to a certain way to do it, you miss out on the dreaming, the beauty, the way that it could be.
• 28:40
  Rachel: Obviously, as we've talked about, we teach the expectations.
• 28:44
  Rachel: So you just understand when you're making purposeful decisions, but feeling like you don't have the ability to make those decisions in the first place, like, ends up damaging your writing.
• 28:56
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah. Yes. And I don't know about you guys.
• 28:58
  Kat Caldwell: Have you had a client where they got feedback from a beta reader or.
• 29:03
  Kat Caldwell: I mean, we call them beta readers.
• 29:04
  Kat Caldwell: We used to just call them readers, and they are, like, they're completely now lost because of the feedback they've gotten.
• 29:14
  Kat Caldwell: And I am.
• 29:15
  Kat Caldwell: I always have to reiterate to people, like, that was someone's opinion.
• 29:19
  Emily: Yeah.
• 29:20
  Kat Caldwell: And it really doesn't.
• 29:24
  Kat Caldwell: Doesn't mean everything.
• 29:26
  Kat Caldwell: Like, there might be truth in it.
• 29:27
  Kat Caldwell: There might not be truth in it, but, like, it doesn't mean anything or everything to the story.
• 29:35
  Kat Caldwell: And, like.
• 29:35
  Kat Caldwell: But it makes you realize, like, how very little we know.
• 29:40
  Kat Caldwell: Righty.
• 29:40
  Kat Caldwell: Like, our imposter syndrome is, like, right here, ready to overtake us at any moment.
• 29:47
  Kat Caldwell: So I think it's great that you guys have a group where people can just like, yeah, yeah.
• 29:53
  Kat Caldwell: Is this normal?
• 29:53
  Kat Caldwell: Yes, it's normal.
• 29:55
  Rachel: Yes, it's normal.
• 29:57
  Emily: That's totally, like, 90% of what our community is and what you're going through is.
• 30:03
  Emily: But, yeah, no, absolutely.
• 30:04
  Emily: I'll have clients that I've, like, worked on there.
• 30:06
  Emily: I help them outline it.
• 30:07
  Emily: I help them draft it.
• 30:09
  Emily: I help them revise it.
• 30:10
  Emily: You know, like, they've had, like, that professional help, that confidence, and they get beta feedback, and they're like, it's all terrible fresh.
• 30:18
  Emily: And I'm like, no, we made.
• 30:20
  Emily: I was there.
• 30:21
  Emily: I witnessed you make all of these intentional decisions.
• 30:24
  Emily: Like, whoo.
• 30:25
  Emily: Let's back up a second.
• 30:26
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, it's still.
• 30:28
  Emily: It doesn't matter.
• 30:29
  Emily: It happens to everybody.
• 30:30
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah. You gotta be careful, like, who you're allowing to dictate your story.
• 30:35
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 30:36
  Kat Caldwell: Like, and if you're with a good editor or a good coach, they are allowing you to choose.
• 30:43
  Emily: Yeah.
• 30:44
  Kat Caldwell: This is how.
• 30:45
  Kat Caldwell: I mean, I really like doing nonfiction.
• 30:47
  Kat Caldwell: I like fiction.
• 30:48
  Kat Caldwell: It's hard to say.
• 30:49
  Kat Caldwell: I'm always like, it depends on the day which one I like more, you know?
• 30:52
  Kat Caldwell: But even in nonfiction, there's a way to tell a story differently, and I always have to remind my clients, like, you get to choose.
• 31:03
  Kat Caldwell: How does this feel?
• 31:05
  Kat Caldwell: Like, should we do it like, this?
• 31:05
  Kat Caldwell: Do you feel less stressed this way?
• 31:09
  Kat Caldwell: Do you feel, like, more stressed?
• 31:09
  Kat Caldwell: You know, how do you see it in your head?
• 31:14
  Kat Caldwell: Because I don't see it in your head.
• 31:16
  Kat Caldwell: I can only see what you've put on the paper.
• 31:18
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 31:18
  Kat Caldwell: So, like, either way, the fiction or nonfiction, like, don't let even me tell you how your story is supposed to be, because I don't know exactly what's in your head.
• 31:31
  Kat Caldwell: I'm just trying to, like, help you take it from your head to the paper, because that's not as easy as we would like it to be.
• 31:39
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 31:40
  Emily: Yeah.
• 31:41
  Rachel: This is, like, such good advice.
• 31:43
  Rachel: And one of the things I wanted to ask you today is you've talked with so many people, like, through pencils and lipstick, through your work as a coach, through being an author.
• 31:55
  Rachel: Like, I feel like you've talked to such a wide range of professionals in the industry to, like, other authors that do this.
• 32:04
  Rachel: And as we're talking, I'm still wondering the same question is, is there anything that stands out to you as far as advice that every writer needs and, like, part of it?
• 32:16
  Rachel: I feel like this whole conversation.
• 32:18
  Rachel: Yes, every writer needs this whole conversation.
• 32:20
  Rachel: What other common denominator do you feel like you see for that writers need to know or in the writers that, like, never give up, that just keep doing it?
• 32:30
  Kat Caldwell: The writers I've talked to that have, you know, way more books than me, like, 20 plus books, and have been in it usually, like, through traditional and into this new age of, you know, indie publishing.
• 32:48
  Kat Caldwell: It shocks me, like, how it's still hard and no one wants to hear that.
• 32:54
  Kat Caldwell: That's why I hesitate to say it there.
• 32:57
  Kat Caldwell: Always telling me that some books were easy and some books were hard and that there's no guarantee, like, what the next book will be, which I'm always like, dang it.
• 33:09
  Kat Caldwell: But at the same time, they say, and I'm thinking of, like, four authors in particular that I talked to, that it just stuck with me of, like, the more you practice the craft, like, in any way that you can practice, the easier it is to at least, like, see the story.
• 33:30
  Kat Caldwell: And one writer told me that he was talking to other authors who are, like, 50, 6100 books in, and he said, at that point, it's around the 50 bookmark where they didn't have to outline anymore.
• 33:48
  Kat Caldwell: I was like, whoa, that's a lot of obstacles.
• 33:53
  Kat Caldwell: But, I mean, these are people who have made their entire career.
• 33:56
  Kat Caldwell: Like, that is how they've, they've made, earned their money.
• 33:59
  Kat Caldwell: And, you know, starting, like, in the eighties or the seventies.
• 34:02
  Kat Caldwell: So that's, so we're not talking, like, the past five years of a hundred books, you know, like, don't start, like, freaking out.
• 34:11
  Kat Caldwell: But still, it just is interesting to me, like, the new us, newer writers are constantly looking for kind of a silver bullet or to feel like we've arrived.
• 34:23
  Kat Caldwell: And none of the more experienced writers feel that.
• 34:29
  Emily: I love that.
• 34:31
  Rachel: I love that.
• 34:31
  Emily: That's such good advice.
• 34:33
  Emily: I was just talking to.
• 34:34
  Emily: In tenacious writing, we do, like, open coaching calls every month where writers can just come ask us questions.
• 34:40
  Emily: And someone came in, and she was like, I'm just really, like, I'm frustrated that I haven't.
• 34:48
  Emily: That I'm, like, not having fun like that.
• 34:50
  Emily: It feels so hard and all of these things.
• 34:52
  Emily: And I think there's, and I want to have the caveat of, like, writing should never be miserable.
• 34:56
  Emily: Like, if it's really miserable, then that probably indicates you have, like, burnout or there's something else going on with your mindset.
• 35:02
  Emily: But I also talk to her about, like, it.
• 35:05
  Emily: Like, if you're putting pressure on yourself for it to be fun every time you show up.
• 35:10
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 35:10
  Emily: It's not gonna be.
• 35:11
  Emily: And then it's gonna feel worse because you're gonna be, like, shaming yourself for not.
• 35:15
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 35:15
  Emily: Feeling good about it.
• 35:17
  Emily: Like, creativity is hard.
• 35:18
  Emily: Art is hard.
• 35:19
  Emily: It's vulnerable.
• 35:20
  Emily: It's difficult.
• 35:21
  Emily: Books take a really long time to write, and, like, it's just, it's really, and so I think this is really helpful that, like, even those folks who've written all these books, right.
• 35:31
  Emily: They've, like, devoted their lives to this being their thing.
• 35:34
  Emily: Right.
• 35:35
  Emily: It's still hard.
• 35:38
  Emily: You can.
• 35:39
  Emily: You're allowed to just let it be hard.
• 35:40
  Emily: Like, I've been telling myself that as I've been working on this draft is, like, I don't like first drafting.
• 35:45
  Emily: Like, it's really hard for me.
• 35:46
  Emily: Like, and it can just be hard.
• 35:48
  Emily: Like, that's okay.
• 35:49
  Kat Caldwell: Yes. Yes. I think doing hard things is part of life.
• 35:55
  Emily: Yeah.
• 35:55
  Kat Caldwell: But, yeah, I mean, gardening is hard for me.
• 35:59
  Kat Caldwell: I can't keep anything alive, but I kind of keep trying.
• 36:03
  Kat Caldwell: You know, raising kids is hard, but it can be fun sometimes.
• 36:09
  Kat Caldwell: Hard sometimes.
• 36:11
  Kat Caldwell: I mean, I have.
• 36:12
  Kat Caldwell: I've seen, so I have two books coming out in the fall that will, with or without novellas, I never know how to count things, you know, like, one of those.
• 36:22
  Kat Caldwell: So one, they're coming out as a duet, and one of them was easy to.
• 36:25
  Kat Caldwell: Easy, you know?
• 36:25
  Kat Caldwell: And I say that loosely.
• 36:28
  Kat Caldwell: To write the other one was.
• 36:31
  Kat Caldwell: Felt so hard.
• 36:34
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 36:34
  Kat Caldwell: Really, like a drudgery.
• 36:38
  Kat Caldwell: And I actually threw away the manuscript once, like, the entire 60,000 words and just restarted.
• 36:43
  Kat Caldwell: But I was determined to write it.
• 36:45
  Kat Caldwell: Like, some people were like, why don't you just write something else?
• 36:46
  Kat Caldwell: I'm like, I feel like I can get this right, but I'm really proud of those books now, you know?
• 36:55
  Kat Caldwell: Whereas sometimes when I'm just writing for fun or whatever and writing a short story, I'll forget about it because it just doesn't, like, stick with you, you know?
• 37:06
  Kat Caldwell: So I'm not saying I want the next one to be hard, you know?
• 37:10
  Kat Caldwell: I'm not calling that on to myself, but I don't know.
• 37:15
  Kat Caldwell: Sometimes I think there's, like, a beauty to it where you can look back and be like, man, that was rough.
• 37:22
  Kat Caldwell: But, yeah, I think I got it right.
• 37:25
  Kat Caldwell: You know, I think I got the story how I wanted it to be, and now I'm ready for people to go read it.
• 37:32
  Kat Caldwell: Like, my mindset from these two books from 2017 is completely different.
• 37:38
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, that took hard work, not just writing, but mindset, too.
• 37:44
  Kat Caldwell: You know, all that stuff.
• 37:45
  Kat Caldwell: It was like, yeah, it's hard.
• 37:46
  Kat Caldwell: Mindset's hard, too, man.
• 37:48
  Emily: Yeah. And to be clear, we're all talking about, like, you know, the hard work of something being difficult, not, like, suffering.
• 37:56
  Emily: Like, if you feel like you're suffering off your path, that does.
• 37:59
  Emily: That's not something to, like, be proud of, and we don't because.
• 38:05
  Emily: Yeah, there's a difference.
• 38:06
  Emily: There's a difference between something feeling, like, super easy and fun all of the time and something being, like, torturous.
• 38:13
  Kat Caldwell: Like, we're.
• 38:13
  Emily: Somewhere in the middle is where we want to be.
• 38:17
  Kat Caldwell: Exactly.
• 38:18
  Kat Caldwell: You know, like, for any allegory of something that, like learning to do sour bread, that's rough.
• 38:25
  Kat Caldwell: If anyone did that in the black hole of COVID you know, I mean, mine were like bricks.
• 38:33
  Kat Caldwell: No good.
• 38:35
  Kat Caldwell: But, you know, everything takes practice.
• 38:37
  Kat Caldwell: I think that's one really weird thing about writers.
• 38:40
  Kat Caldwell: For some reason.
• 38:41
  Kat Caldwell: I don't know where it came from, but we seem to think that if we have a story in our head, just, like, culturally, and we know we're writers, that we should just be good at it.
• 38:52
  Rachel: Yes. Yeah.
• 38:54
  Kat Caldwell: Like, magically, when you.
• 38:56
  Kat Caldwell: When you look around and think, like, singers get lessons all the time for years.
• 39:01
  Kat Caldwell: Painters, they have mentors.
• 39:03
  Kat Caldwell: They take lessons.
• 39:04
  Kat Caldwell: The symphony, they're always practicing, always take.
• 39:07
  Kat Caldwell: They always have a mentor.
• 39:09
  Kat Caldwell: Like, I watched the Roland Garros yesterday.
• 39:11
  Kat Caldwell: Like, they have a coach, you know, just because they are the top tennis player doesn't mean that they're.
• 39:17
  Kat Caldwell: They're just like, oh, I don't need a coach.
• 39:19
  Kat Caldwell: I'm all by myself here.
• 39:20
  Kat Caldwell: No, they have a coach.
• 39:22
  Kat Caldwell: So why do writers think that we should just be able to magically do this by ourselves?
• 39:25
  Kat Caldwell: I don't know why I know.
• 39:31
  Kat Caldwell: Still searching for that.
• 39:32
  Rachel: I know.
• 39:33
  Rachel: Well, I feel like it's.
• 39:34
  Rachel: This is so relevant to one of the clients that I'm doing one on one right now, and I feel like we talked about this exact thing every single week, but I feel like there's not one answer, because I think it's different for everyone.
• 39:47
  Rachel: But I, in talking with this client, have, like, a couple nebulous thoughts about this, where, like, one, we already write English.
• 39:59
  Rachel: You know, like, whatever writer language you're writing in, you write most likely that language.
• 40:05
  Rachel: Like, you speak that language, you interact in that language.
• 40:07
  Rachel: We know writers that write in other languages and that, like, write in their second language, whatever.
• 40:12
  Rachel: But most of the time, you're writing in a language that you've spoken most of your life or that you are familiar with, and this author that I was speaking with was like, shouldn't I just know how to do it?
• 40:22
  Rachel: Like, I'm just writing words?
• 40:22
  Rachel: And then on top of that, for her and for me, where this resonated a lot with me was, like, schooling.
• 40:33
  Rachel: You are taught to write, but it's like, papers.
• 40:38
  Rachel: It's not the same thing, you know, like.
• 40:40
  Rachel: And so I feel like there's a conflation of the word right with, like, what it means to write a novel.
• 40:47
  Rachel: They're not the same thing.
• 40:49
  Rachel: Knowing how to write words in your language is not the same thing as knowing how to tell a story.
• 40:54
  Kat Caldwell: Yes.
• 40:54
  Rachel: And so I think people approach, I'm gonna be a writer thinking I can write words, and so, therefore, I should know how to tell a story.
• 41:02
  Rachel: But that's writing a book is not writing words.
• 41:06
  Rachel: It's learning how to tell a story.
• 41:08
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, that's so true.
• 41:09
  Kat Caldwell: That's so true.
• 41:10
  Rachel: So I feel like I just gotta.
• 41:11
  Kat Caldwell: Get rid of that.
• 41:12
  Kat Caldwell: Yes.
• 41:13
  Rachel: Yeah. Like, the expectations that we have for ourself just feel so different.
• 41:18
  Rachel: But then you include, like, perfectionism, where you're afraid to fail and, like, you don't want to get it wrong, and so you expect yourself to do it right.
• 41:26
  Rachel: And then there's, like, the uncomfortability of being bad at something, and I don't think.
• 41:30
  Kat Caldwell: Which the reviewers these days are totally up for telling you.
• 41:34
  Rachel: Yes, they sure are.
• 41:37
  Rachel: But I don't think we teach our children.
• 41:39
  Rachel: I don't think we teach our children the ability to be resilient in the face of being bad at something.
• 41:46
  Rachel: Like, I feel like that's a pervasive problem with a lot of people's upbringing, is that.
• 41:54
  Rachel: And this doesn't have to do with writing in general, just any skill where, like, I don't think we're taught how to sit in doing something bad.
• 42:03
  Rachel: Like, it's like, if you're bad at it, that is bad, and so you shouldn't do it.
• 42:08
  Kat Caldwell: So, yeah, in America, for sure, we gotta be good right away.
• 42:12
  Rachel: Good right away, or it's pointless.
• 42:14
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah. We gotta be the genius.
• 42:16
  Emily: We're all looking for the genius.
• 42:18
  Emily: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:18
  Emily: And if you don't have it, it's not worth it.
• 42:21
  Kat Caldwell: Yes, but what's so weird about writing is, like, where is the genius?
• 42:25
  Kat Caldwell: Because it really depends.
• 42:28
  Kat Caldwell: If you like Sylvia Plath, that's awesome.
• 42:31
  Kat Caldwell: But there's, like, 90% of the society that doesn't want to read it, and that, to them, is not genius.
• 42:39
  Kat Caldwell: So writing is very.
• 42:42
  Kat Caldwell: Storytelling is so subjective.
• 42:45
  Kat Caldwell: Like, so it's.
• 42:48
  Kat Caldwell: You don't like, even the things that you like to read might not be the thing that you're really good at writing or storytelling with.
• 42:56
  Kat Caldwell: And I think that's also tough to wrap our heads around.
• 43:02
  Kat Caldwell: It's like, I mean, I let.
• 43:05
  Kat Caldwell: My kids were really into Taylor Swift all year, you know, but I was like, listen to a lot of Taylor Swift songs, or, like, any.
• 43:13
  Kat Caldwell: Any group that you like.
• 43:15
  Kat Caldwell: Some songs are awesome, and then there are those songs that you skip all the time because you just don't like.
• 43:20
  Kat Caldwell: Like, so you're not always gonna hit it.
• 43:23
  Kat Caldwell: But I was listening to someone, a photographer, talk about perfectionism, and this I loved.
• 43:29
  Kat Caldwell: And I'm trying to, like, wrap my head around how to tell my clients with writing where he was saying if he.
• 43:34
  Kat Caldwell: If he got up, and instead of thinking that every idea had to come to an end in which it was.
• 43:44
  Kat Caldwell: Oh, balloons.
• 43:46
  Kat Caldwell: That was so strange.
• 43:47
  Rachel: Sorry.
• 43:48
  Kat Caldwell: Your apple is like, yes, I love it.
• 43:51
  Kat Caldwell: Yes.
• 43:55
  Kat Caldwell: Anyway, he was saying, if every idea.
• 43:57
  Kat Caldwell: If you put the pressure of every idea having to have an ending in which someone somewhere would see it as a final product to buy, then it was almost too much pressure.
• 44:10
  Kat Caldwell: And so if he could just see every idea as a possibility in the stepping stone of creativity and perhaps might find an end, but perhaps might not, that it could just be part of his development of his photography.
• 44:29
  Kat Caldwell: I was like, this is interesting.
• 44:32
  Kat Caldwell: Now it's difficult, I think, as a. As novelist, because you want your novel, like, you want to work on this thing.
• 44:40
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 44:40
  Kat Caldwell: We put that pressure.
• 44:41
  Kat Caldwell: This has to have an ending, and then it has to be received by readers.
• 44:50
  Kat Caldwell: But I think to that end, if you're.
• 44:55
  Kat Caldwell: If you're going to have that project, you almost necessarily then need something on the side that doesn't have that pressure.
• 45:03
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 45:04
  Emily: Or ways to take that.
• 45:06
  Emily: Yeah.
• 45:07
  Emily: The thing that came to me is, so I'm first drafting right now, and I'm a big rewriter, and I know that's not everybody's process, but for me, I've had to remind myself, like, just because I'm writing this scene doesn't mean it's gonna end up in the final at all, let alone in this way.
• 45:22
  Emily: But I still need to write the scene.
• 45:24
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 45:25
  Emily: Because I have to keep moving forward to get to the end of the manuscript to figure out what I want to say, all of that.
• 45:31
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 45:31
  Emily: So it kind of reminds me of, like, you know, a thousand pictures so that then you can look back and be like, okay, these are the ones I'm gonna develop.
• 45:38
  Emily: Right.
• 45:38
  Emily: These are the ones that are gonna stay storytelling because it's like the stepping.
• 45:43
  Kat Caldwell: Stone to your final.
• 45:45
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:45
  Emily: If I came to every paragraph, every scene, whatever, with, like, this is gonna be in the final draft, I would never get anywhere because that's just not.
• 45:51
  Kat Caldwell: Yes.
• 45:52
  Emily: For me, at least.
• 45:53
  Emily: Like, that's not how my massive rewriting process works.
• 45:56
  Kat Caldwell: No, I think that's a great mindset check.
• 45:59
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 46:00
  Kat Caldwell: Like, we.
• 46:02
  Kat Caldwell: And that comes back to hard work, too, because I know, like, secretly, I want it all to be good.
• 46:08
  Kat Caldwell: The first draft.
• 46:09
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 46:09
  Kat Caldwell: Secretly, I don't want to do the work.
• 46:11
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 46:12
  Kat Caldwell: But knowing and, like, having that mindset of it might or might not be there in the next, but at the same time, you're just, you're just practicing your craft because you're putting words on the page.
• 46:25
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 46:25
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, I like that, too.
• 46:27
  Kat Caldwell: That's a good way to say it.
• 46:28
  Rachel: Yeah. So I. Where we can start to wrap up.
• 46:33
  Rachel: But one of the things I wanted to ask you about, which you mentioned is your two books coming out this fall, which I know you did, a Kickstarter campaign.
• 46:42
  Rachel: So I want to talk a little bit about that and maybe tell us a little bit about your books and how that went and then to, you know, after we're done with that, we can wrap up with, like, where.
• 46:52
  Rachel: Where to find you.
• 46:53
  Rachel: But, yeah, yeah, I was, so as I was getting your emails about the Kickstarter campaign, I was just, like, so curious what that was like.
• 47:00
  Rachel: And, you know, these what these books are about and then on the back end, like how that worked in your writing process and.
• 47:08
  Rachel: Yeah, so anyway, I'm so curious, Kickstarter.
• 47:12
  Kat Caldwell: So it's the first time I did it and I am, you know, I'm just someone who is like, well, I could go to all these courses or I could just do it and learn.
• 47:22
  Kat Caldwell: It's not for the faint of heart, for sure.
• 47:25
  Kat Caldwell: It is a really intense marketing campaign, which I think if you launch your book properly, like everyone says, you should launch your book, which I've never done because, you know, imposter syndrome.
• 47:38
  Kat Caldwell: It's basically that Kickstarter is interesting.
• 47:42
  Kat Caldwell: From what I saw, a lot of fantasy is taking over Kickstarter starter.
• 47:46
  Kat Caldwell: And weirdly enough, there's a niche of people buying books just because they're pretty.
• 47:55
  Kat Caldwell: So I didn't know what to do with that.
• 47:57
  Kat Caldwell: I'm just going to leave that there as a doorstopper for everyone to think about.
• 48:04
  Kat Caldwell: I loved it.
• 48:05
  Kat Caldwell: I thought it was great.
• 48:06
  Kat Caldwell: I now have a lot of, lot more knowledge of marketing and, and writing those emails.
• 48:14
  Kat Caldwell: Quite honestly, lots of people didn't know what Kickstarter was.
• 48:18
  Kat Caldwell: So again, it's like a reminder of just because you know, something some people don't and being able to sort of just grapple with that, you have, you should have quite a big following or just, and I just put it, I have like kind of a smallish following.
• 48:38
  Kat Caldwell: So I had a really low threshold.
• 48:41
  Kat Caldwell: It was $750.
• 48:42
  Kat Caldwell: I just want to make it there.
• 48:43
  Kat Caldwell: And I only did paperback in ebook.
• 48:45
  Kat Caldwell: I did not do hardback.
• 48:49
  Kat Caldwell: I did, though, learn about it because I realized because my husband's in finance and talking to him about it, you could easily lose your shirt on this.
• 48:59
  Kat Caldwell: And so I do want to put that warning out to anyone.
• 49:02
  Kat Caldwell: I think everyone should experiment.
• 49:04
  Kat Caldwell: But what's, what everyone gets really excited about are these beautiful hardbacks because like some of them are now, some places are now like spray painting the edges for you and all this, like beautiful things.
• 49:16
  Kat Caldwell: But they cost a lot of money.
• 49:18
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, a lot of money.
• 49:19
  Kat Caldwell: And so your margin is not any bigger on Kickstarter than it usually tends to be on Amazon.
• 49:26
  Kat Caldwell: So just because, I mean, so there's the book over there because they're coming to me, I sign them and then I ship them out.
• 49:35
  Kat Caldwell: So, you know, you have to add that to the cost.
• 49:39
  Emily: Shipping books is not inexpensive.
• 49:42
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, it's rough, but people want them signed and so what else are you going to do?
• 49:46
  Kat Caldwell: And that's kind of like the point of Kickstarter.
• 49:49
  Kat Caldwell: And so you have to be ready for those questions of, like, why is your book $20?
• 49:54
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 49:55
  Kat Caldwell: You're like, well, this is why I have to pay for shipping twice.
• 49:59
  Kat Caldwell: I have to pay the, you know, for them to ship here.
• 50:01
  Kat Caldwell: And being kind of ready for that, I would give yourself the whole three weeks off.
• 50:05
  Kat Caldwell: I would not bother writing.
• 50:07
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, I did short stories just to, like, you know, as a stress reliever.
• 50:13
  Kat Caldwell: I also did, like, a really intense workout program to give stress reliever because it's really hard not to refresh.
• 50:20
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 50:21
  Kat Caldwell: Like, and it will stall.
• 50:24
  Kat Caldwell: It will totally stall.
• 50:26
  Kat Caldwell: And, you know, everyone who has, like, the$3,000 threshold, they're not wanting 3000.
• 50:32
  Kat Caldwell: What they want is to hit that because you don't, you don't succeed in Kickstarter unless you hit your goal.
• 50:39
  Kat Caldwell: Money.
• 50:39
  Kat Caldwell: Right?
• 50:40
  Kat Caldwell: So which means no money at all.
• 50:43
  Kat Caldwell: If you get $2,999, you don't get any money.
• 50:47
  Kat Caldwell: You are not sending out product half the time, though.
• 50:52
  Kat Caldwell: You have half of those products ordered already.
• 50:55
  Kat Caldwell: Right?
• 50:55
  Kat Caldwell: Like, you have some things already in play because you don't also want to take six months to get there.
• 51:02
  Kat Caldwell: It's complicated.
• 51:04
  Kat Caldwell: So I would learn about it.
• 51:06
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 51:07
  Kat Caldwell: Russell Nolte has a great book on it.
• 51:09
  Kat Caldwell: Author media with Thomas Umstead.
• 51:11
  Kat Caldwell: He has a course on it.
• 51:13
  Kat Caldwell: I think Russell has a course as well.
• 51:17
  Kat Caldwell: Kickstarter for authors on Facebook.
• 51:19
  Kat Caldwell: Just lurking and, like, seeing.
• 51:22
  Kat Caldwell: But it helps you refine a sales page and hard, it helps you talk about your book, and that's hard again, you know, it helps you sort of let go.
• 51:34
  Kat Caldwell: And I had to pivot and look at my book in a different way because the marketing wasn't working as well.
• 51:41
  Kat Caldwell: And when I did pivot, I suddenly got an uptick and I hit my goal.
• 51:46
  Kat Caldwell: So it's like, okay, so the way that I see my book might not be how to sell the book.
• 51:52
  Kat Caldwell: And I mean, that's just sales.
• 51:54
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 51:55
  Kat Caldwell: The good thing, then I have an entire folder of emails, social media, all this stuff that I'm just going to keep using and refining and using as they, you know, I push the pre orders.
• 52:08
  Kat Caldwell: I think it's a great experience, but it's not for the fate of heart.
• 52:13
  Kat Caldwell: Lots of people are doing groups, and I think that might be easier to do a group if you can do like a box set that's just like, oh, we're all historical romance or we're all, you know, urban fantasy and we're going to put together five books and you just sort of like, have someone to talk to.
• 52:32
  Rachel: Yes.
• 52:32
  Kat Caldwell: Throughout the process and to help carry the load of marketing.
• 52:37
  Kat Caldwell: So I don't want to, like, sound like a total downer about it.
• 52:39
  Kat Caldwell: I really enjoyed it, and I will do it again.
• 52:42
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 52:43
  Kat Caldwell: But I don't want people to think that they should go all out.
• 52:46
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 52:47
  Kat Caldwell: And then lose money.
• 52:48
  Kat Caldwell: I think that's that.
• 52:50
  Kat Caldwell: I don't think most authors can afford that.
• 52:53
  Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:54
  Rachel: I think that's great advice.
• 52:55
  Rachel: And I'm still hearing also, like, number one, it's another awesome way to get your book out into the world.
• 53:01
  Rachel: And I think everybody deserves access.
• 53:03
  Rachel: Access to do that.
• 53:05
  Rachel: Number two, it's, like, really tough to do by yourself.
• 53:08
  Rachel: So doing it, just, like writing, doing it around other people who can give you advice or empathize or whatever it is, is helpful.
• 53:17
  Rachel: And number two, it's a learning process.
• 53:20
  Rachel: I mean, I feel like I learned so much self publishing my first book that sounds so similar to exactly what you're saying, where you're just.
• 53:30
  Rachel: You have to keep trying and, like, trying new things and tweaking and iterating and, like, the idea of iteration is very common to me because I used to work in a startup where, like, you are constantly tweaking things.
• 53:45
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 53:46
  Rachel: But that's how marketing works, where you have to constantly tweak things, you have to pay attention to how things are landing and not be afraid to try new things.
• 53:55
  Rachel: And all of this sounds like so similar and obviously completely different process, but the idea is that you just need to learn and you can't give up.
• 54:06
  Rachel: You have to keep trying.
• 54:08
  Kat Caldwell: I mean, I would choose.
• 54:10
  Kat Caldwell: I would try to learn a Kickstarter before you set up a Shopify store.
• 54:14
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 54:15
  Kat Caldwell: I know lots of people, like, because it's a short time span and to see if you even, like, direct sales.
• 54:21
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 54:22
  Kat Caldwell: And shopify costs $50 a month, so.
• 54:25
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:27
  Kat Caldwell: I'm always conscious of, like, people, we want to do all these things, but a lot of times we're looking at authors farther down the road than us.
• 54:34
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 54:35
  Kat Caldwell: And I don't want authors to, like, lose money because they're just not where they were.
• 54:41
  Kat Caldwell: That other author.
• 54:41
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 54:42
  Kat Caldwell: You know?
• 54:42
  Rachel: So, yeah, that's awesome.
• 54:45
  Rachel: I'm so excited for this and for you.
• 54:48
  Rachel: And this sounds iconic.
• 54:49
  Rachel: I can't wait to read them.
• 54:51
  Rachel: And when I was seeing you doing it, I just felt, like, such an admiration of, like, wow, that seems really brave.
• 54:56
  Rachel: And I respect the hell out of that for doing that.
• 54:59
  Kat Caldwell: I launched the day that Brandon Sanderson's second one launched, and I was like, damn it.
• 55:08
  Kat Caldwell: Also read his blog because he's way past any of us.
• 55:12
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 55:12
  Kat Caldwell: But he's very humble and telling thing, like, yeah.
• 55:16
  Kat Caldwell: What it is that he has a team.
• 55:19
  Kat Caldwell: It's like, why are you guys like, I have, like, ten people working for me.
• 55:22
  Kat Caldwell: Why are you guys like.
• 55:23
  Kat Caldwell: Of course it's hard for you.
• 55:24
  Kat Caldwell: You're one person.
• 55:25
  Kat Caldwell: Like, at least he's humble enough to realize.
• 55:28
  Rachel: Yeah, absolutely.
• 55:30
  Rachel: A team.
• 55:31
  Rachel: Teams are so very important.
• 55:33
  Rachel: So how.
• 55:34
  Rachel: How should someone find you if they want to.
• 55:36
  Rachel: If they want you on their team?
• 55:38
  Kat Caldwell: Okay, so catcalledwell.com is the, what do we call it?
• 55:44
  Kat Caldwell: Web page.
• 55:46
  Kat Caldwell: Like that thing.
• 55:48
  Kat Caldwell: By the time this goes out, I'm kind of tweaking it at the moment, but it's not downs, but it, like, it might go up and down as we go.
• 55:55
  Kat Caldwell: I'm on social media.
• 55:56
  Kat Caldwell: I'm mostly on Instagram, a little bit on TikTok.
• 56:01
  Kat Caldwell: But if you go to, like, my Instagram or my Facebook or catcalldo.com, just get in on the newsletter.
• 56:07
  Kat Caldwell: And if you want to work with me, you can fill out the contact form I always give, like, you guys, you know, chat together because if you don't like me, we probably shouldn't work together.
• 56:17
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 56:17
  Kat Caldwell: Right.
• 56:18
  Kat Caldwell: You know, to chat about projects.
• 56:20
  Kat Caldwell: But, yeah, I'm pretty much anywhere you can listen to pencils on lipstick.
• 56:24
  Kat Caldwell: I take a break for the summer, but it will be back in September.
• 56:28
  Kat Caldwell: I'm kind of, like, everywhere.
• 56:30
  Rachel: I feel like, yeah, just google your name and they'll find you my name and we'll put.
• 56:36
  Rachel: We'll put links to your website and your social pages and pencils and lipstick in the show notes.
• 56:42
  Rachel: So if anyone is wanting to check those out, swipe up and you can tap on those links.
• 56:46
  Kat Caldwell: Awesome.
• 56:47
  Kat Caldwell: Thank you.
• 56:48
  Rachel: Well, thank you so much for joining us.
• 56:49
  Rachel: This is such an awesome conversation.
• 56:52
  Rachel: So much great advice and also just kind of a fun little insight into what it's like to be coaches.
• 56:57
  Rachel: Yes.
• 56:57
  Rachel: Which I love.
• 56:58
  Kat Caldwell: Yeah.
• 56:59
  Emily: This was such a pleasure, Kat.
• 57:00
  Emily: Thank you so much.
• 57:01
  Kat Caldwell: Thanks for having me.
• 57:02
  Rachel: Thank you.
• 57:03
  Emily: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling, and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 57:09
  Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course.
• 57:11
  Rachel: The magic of character arcs.
• 57:12
  Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 57:18
  Emily: Link in the show notes.
• 57:18
  Emily: We'll see you there.
• 57:20
  Emily: Bye.