Latest / Echoes & Edges / Why Does Safety Feel So Unfamiliar? with Janet Friesen

Transcript

Why Does Safety Feel So Unfamiliar? with Janet Friesen · Echoes & Edges

0:08
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Echoes and Edges, the Broken and Beautiful Podcast.
0:13
Speaker 1: The Broken and Beautiful is a collective of healers on
0:16
Speaker 1: the hunt for beauty, meaning, and transformation. I'm Patria, the
0:21
Speaker 1: host of Echoes and Edges, the Broken and Beautiful Podcast
0:24
Speaker 1: and the founder of the Broken and Beautiful Collective, and
0:28
Speaker 1: today we are joined by Janet Freezan, one of my
0:31
Speaker 1: colleagues part of the Broken and Beautiful Collective. Janet is
0:36
Speaker 1: a licensed independent mental health provider and has a long
0:42
Speaker 1: history of coming alongside women, whether as a mental health
0:46
Speaker 1: provider or a work in full time ministry just caring
0:51
Speaker 1: about people, but coming alongside women who are in relationships
0:57
Speaker 1: that aren't good for them in some way. They might
1:00
Speaker 1: not be physically safe, they might not be psychologically safe,
1:05
Speaker 1: or they might be full on narcissistic type abuse situations
1:09
Speaker 1: or spiritual abuse situations. And so we're really fortunate to
1:14
Speaker 1: have Janet again on the podcast. I'm really grateful to
1:17
Speaker 1: have this conversation and today we're really going to be
1:20
Speaker 1: talking about this concept of when safe doesn't feel safe.
1:27
Speaker 1: And so Janet, first of all, would you add anything,
1:31
Speaker 1: or subtract anything, or edit anything that I said about
1:35
Speaker 1: who you are and how you're coming.
1:37
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that all sounded great? Yeah, great, great?
1:42
Speaker 1: So yeah, So when safe doesn't feel safe, Janet, why
1:47
Speaker 1: just at the outset, why does this feel so important
1:51
Speaker 1: to you? Why does this conversation feel so important to you?
1:55
Speaker 2: That's a great question.
1:57
Speaker 3: And I think because I've walked along side so many
2:00
Speaker 3: women who are in unsafe situations, whether that like you mentioned,
2:05
Speaker 3: whether it's physically safe unsafe, or more often it's emotionally
2:11
Speaker 3: psychologically unsafe, and yet they have a hard time a
2:15
Speaker 3: lot of times really understanding or getting the full weight
2:21
Speaker 3: of the situation that they're in and how unsafe it is.
2:25
Speaker 3: And as we work together, whether that's individually or in
2:28
Speaker 3: a group, they come to realize, oh, this isn't safe.
2:33
Speaker 3: Or sometimes if there's a separation for a period of
2:36
Speaker 3: time or or permanent separation divorce, after they're out of it,
2:41
Speaker 3: they realize, oh, what I was in was really really unsafe.
2:46
Speaker 3: I didn't feel safe, and I didn't even realize it
2:49
Speaker 3: until I got out of it. And so I think
2:53
Speaker 3: in the work that I'm doing, even with women who
2:55
Speaker 3: are just initially coming to me or have not been
2:59
Speaker 3: working with me very long, is trying to help them
3:02
Speaker 3: assess their safety, because that is so critical. And I
3:06
Speaker 3: think a lot of times we become so used to
3:10
Speaker 3: the situation that we're in, it just becomes normal, and
3:13
Speaker 3: we don't realize how much it's impacting our bodies and
3:18
Speaker 3: our minds and our souls.
3:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, and our feeling of safety in the world or
3:26
Speaker 1: flourishing in life. I think that's something that I've heard
3:31
Speaker 1: you say over and over again, and that we've seen
3:34
Speaker 1: over and over again through groups or with individuals or
3:37
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be, that there's just a sense
3:40
Speaker 1: of something I don't feel right, something I just something's wrong.
3:44
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. I don't feel freedom,
3:47
Speaker 1: I feel confined. Why do I feel this way? But
3:50
Speaker 1: not really being able to put the puzzle pieces together
3:54
Speaker 1: about what's really happening, yeah.
3:58
Speaker 3: Or the sense of feeling kind of trapped or in
4:01
Speaker 3: a smaller life than what they used to be. I've
4:06
Speaker 3: had some clients that talk about I used to be
4:08
Speaker 3: this way or this way, yeah, and I'm not like
4:11
Speaker 3: that anymore, and they don't understand why yeah.
4:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. And while of course, just for listeners, we're not
4:19
Speaker 1: suggesting that every time a person has that feeling they're
4:23
Speaker 1: in a toxic or abusive or somehow emotionally or psychologically
4:30
Speaker 1: unsafe relationship. It's something to consider, and we're coming at
4:35
Speaker 1: it from the angle of particularly working with people, and
4:39
Speaker 1: especially eu Janet primarily work with women in this kind
4:43
Speaker 1: of situation, but also and talk to us a little
4:47
Speaker 1: bit here at the outset about why is that so
4:53
Speaker 1: hard to define for so many people at least? What
4:57
Speaker 1: are some of the reasons for that?
4:59
Speaker 3: Well, I said earlier too, we become used to the
5:02
Speaker 3: environment that we're in. So whether it's the environment that
5:05
Speaker 3: we were raised in, our family of origin with our
5:08
Speaker 3: parents' siblings, whether it's the what we endured at school,
5:14
Speaker 3: those things, that's our normal, and so we tend to
5:18
Speaker 3: our body almost our body does think that that's normal then,
5:22
Speaker 3: because that's what we grew up with and recognizing that's
5:26
Speaker 3: not what life needs to be. And recently I had
5:31
Speaker 3: listened to Caroline stress and give a talk on divorce
5:36
Speaker 3: being a superpower, and she just named it so well,
5:40
Speaker 3: talking about we get into this cycle where there's our
5:44
Speaker 3: bodies are used to having that cortisol, that stress hormone,
5:48
Speaker 3: in addition to the dopamine which is the hormone that
5:51
Speaker 3: feels good, you know, the feel good kind of thing,
5:53
Speaker 3: which if we're doing something pleasurable, if we do something
5:57
Speaker 3: that we enjoy, like a hobby or hanging out with
6:00
Speaker 3: friends or watching a funny movie, you know, that's all dopamine.
6:03
Speaker 3: Or even scrolling on our phones, you know that gives
6:06
Speaker 3: us those dopamine hits, which is the positive type of thing.
6:10
Speaker 3: And we think that we don't like the stress and
6:13
Speaker 3: that cortisol, but our bodies have been become so used
6:16
Speaker 3: to being an environment like that where both are present,
6:21
Speaker 3: that if we don't have the cortisol, if we're just
6:24
Speaker 3: in a situation that feels good, that we're getting the dopamine,
6:28
Speaker 3: it doesn't feel right to us because we're so used
6:31
Speaker 3: to there being that stress there too, that cortisol.
6:43
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about this thing this morning, because
6:46
Speaker 1: you're part of the collective, you know, you know, I
6:49
Speaker 1: just I don't know if you saw. I sent out
6:50
Speaker 1: an email this morning and we're kind of getting ready
6:54
Speaker 1: to launch again for another year, and I was just
6:59
Speaker 1: noticing the cortisol in my body and the feeling of
7:05
Speaker 1: both excitement and anxiety, and just paying attention to how
7:14
Speaker 1: familiar that feeling is to me. And as you know
7:18
Speaker 1: and as the listeners know, you know, I do have
7:21
Speaker 1: some stories of trauma from my childhood and from adulthood too,
7:26
Speaker 1: where that I can relate with this to some degree.
7:29
Speaker 1: There's a feeling of things aren't quite don't feel quite right,
7:33
Speaker 1: if it's not a crisis, or if it's not that
7:36
Speaker 1: heightened feeling of risk or whatever adrenaline, whatever that is
7:42
Speaker 1: that the cortisol is bringing. And so I think just
7:47
Speaker 1: for people at the outset of kind of thinking about this,
7:50
Speaker 1: just notice your everyday life. Notice your own body and
7:53
Speaker 1: how comfortable it feels being at ease or at peace
8:01
Speaker 1: or without something terrible to think about or a problem
8:06
Speaker 1: to solve or a crisis to fix, that kind of thing.
8:09
Speaker 1: Would you have any thoughts to add to that, Janet.
8:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was actually talking. I talked to a couple
8:16
Speaker 3: of clients last week. I think about this too, And
8:20
Speaker 3: I think I first came across this term in Brene
8:23
Speaker 3: Brown's book Daring Great, when she was talking about the
8:27
Speaker 3: vulnerability of feeling joy and that joy is actually the
8:32
Speaker 3: most vulnerable feeling that we can feel, and that that
8:36
Speaker 3: idea of kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop, thinking, Oh,
8:40
Speaker 3: things are going so well right now, what's going to happen?
8:44
Speaker 3: And I think that's a sign of just being in
8:48
Speaker 3: that state where we're so used to that cortisol and
8:50
Speaker 3: dopamine that if it's just good, we're worried something bad
8:56
Speaker 3: is going to happen. I think that's really common. That's
8:59
Speaker 3: probably something a lot of people can relate to. Probably everybody.
9:02
Speaker 2: I'm guessing yeah, I bet so.
9:04
Speaker 3: And I was reflecting on that more recently and thinking
9:09
Speaker 3: about I think the longer you're out of trauma or
9:13
Speaker 3: the more healing and the more healing work that you've done,
9:17
Speaker 3: that you're able to reset your nervous system because you're
9:21
Speaker 3: in a safe place. If you've gotten out of an
9:24
Speaker 3: abusive situation or if and that could be a toxic
9:29
Speaker 3: work environment or something. It might be quitting a job
9:32
Speaker 3: that was toxic, or a friendship. It wouldn't necessarily need
9:35
Speaker 3: to be a marriage, but being out of that place
9:39
Speaker 3: where you're just constantly under a lot of stress and
9:42
Speaker 3: negativity and people putting you down or not ever knowing
9:46
Speaker 3: am I doing this right?
9:47
Speaker 2: Or am I going to get yelled at?
9:49
Speaker 3: And when you're out of that for a period of time,
9:52
Speaker 3: your nervous system does reset. And I think other things
9:56
Speaker 3: that we can do to help that is just really
9:59
Speaker 3: simple things that I I know you talk about a
10:01
Speaker 3: lot like breathing. I talk about that a lot with
10:04
Speaker 3: my clients. Is just pausing, taking some deep breaths, grounding,
10:10
Speaker 3: feeling your feet on the floor, feeling, you know, looking
10:13
Speaker 3: at what are the things that I can see around me,
10:16
Speaker 3: what are the things that I can touch, different textures here, taste,
10:21
Speaker 3: paying attention to those things and being grounded in the
10:24
Speaker 3: present moment. And the more that we incorporate those kinds
10:28
Speaker 3: of practices into our life, the more easy it is
10:32
Speaker 3: for our bodies to return to that more relaxed state,
10:35
Speaker 3: and eventually we get used to that being our normal
10:41
Speaker 3: instead of that constant state of chaos.
10:46
Speaker 2: Feeling normal, that's so good.
10:49
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about examples, like you know, we're talking about
10:55
Speaker 1: kind of the picture meta, sort of the bigger picture.
11:01
Speaker 1: What does this look like in real life for people?
11:04
Speaker 1: You know, like how my anxiety or survival in a
11:11
Speaker 1: you know, unsettled place look for people? I would imagine
11:15
Speaker 1: it could like a one hundred million ways. How does that
11:18
Speaker 1: how do you see that looking for people.
11:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks really different depending on how we're wired
11:23
Speaker 3: a lot of times and our personalities, and some of
11:27
Speaker 3: that is how we were born or how we were raised,
11:31
Speaker 3: what kinds of solutions worked for us as kids. But
11:36
Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of people have heard
11:38
Speaker 3: of fight flight freeze. But we can get into those
11:41
Speaker 3: states where we feel like I need to fight, I
11:43
Speaker 3: need to argue, I need to rage against this, I
11:45
Speaker 3: need to get revenge. So it can look like that,
11:48
Speaker 3: or it can look like the fleeing, the getting out
11:51
Speaker 3: of here.
11:52
Speaker 2: I'm just going to leave.
11:53
Speaker 3: I'm going to quit my job, or you know, quit
11:56
Speaker 3: this relationship, and that being more of a knee jerk reaction,
12:00
Speaker 3: not a thought out, you know, plan, because sometimes that
12:03
Speaker 3: does need to happen.
12:04
Speaker 2: But if it's just this almost automatic response.
12:08
Speaker 3: So those those are two ways that people, you know,
12:11
Speaker 3: if their nervous system is elevated, they might do one
12:13
Speaker 3: of those two things. Or we can move to that shutdown,
12:16
Speaker 3: that state of freeze and really feel immobilized, like we
12:21
Speaker 3: can't do anything. I can't make any decisions, I don't
12:24
Speaker 3: have energy to get out of bed, I can't figure
12:27
Speaker 3: out what I need to do. Today, and that's actually
12:30
Speaker 3: a harder place to get out of because you're not
12:32
Speaker 3: in motion, You're you're stuck, you're still. And so if
12:36
Speaker 3: you can do anything, you know, even you know, calling
12:39
Speaker 3: a friend to say, hey, let's meet to go for
12:42
Speaker 3: a walk or go for coffee or something to get
12:44
Speaker 3: to give you something to get up and get moving,
12:47
Speaker 3: or you know, just telling yourself, I'm going to get
12:50
Speaker 3: up and like do one jumping jack or something like that.
12:53
Speaker 3: But just to get our bodies moving, because once our
12:56
Speaker 3: bodies start moving, that helps us to get unstuck too,
12:59
Speaker 3: because because we are.
13:00
Speaker 2: Embodied, we're not just brains.
13:03
Speaker 3: We have bodies, and what our bodies are doing or
13:06
Speaker 3: what we're doing with our bodies does impact our brains
13:11
Speaker 3: and how we're feeling that sense of anxiety or an ease.
13:15
Speaker 3: So if we can get some movement like that, again,
13:18
Speaker 3: practicing some of those grounding type things too. Social connection
13:22
Speaker 3: with others is really really important because especially if we
13:27
Speaker 3: go into that if we tend to go into that
13:29
Speaker 3: freeze response, we tend to isolate, and so making sure
13:34
Speaker 3: that we have a few close friends around us, or
13:38
Speaker 3: a mentor or a therapist or a pastor or a coach,
13:42
Speaker 3: or just somebody at least that we can talk to
13:46
Speaker 3: so that we don't feel so alone in this.
13:49
Speaker 1: I have mixed feelings about this. But if finances are
13:54
Speaker 1: or life circumstances are such that you just can't don't
13:58
Speaker 1: have a person, a life person, even AI can offer
14:03
Speaker 1: some support and ideas in a place like this, I'd
14:07
Speaker 1: like to consider to just like, consider adding other language.
14:13
Speaker 1: Not to say it's saying something necessarily different than what
14:16
Speaker 1: you're already saying, but just to add other language into it,
14:19
Speaker 1: because we do talk so much in this arena that
14:22
Speaker 1: we almost get used to fight flight freeze, you know, dopamine, cortisol.
14:27
Speaker 1: You know, it's always we're used to our own language.
14:29
Speaker 1: It's but it is a whole lexicon of data, you know,
14:35
Speaker 1: So just thinking of this in everyday language, what does
14:37
Speaker 1: this look like like? I'm thinking about, for example, people
14:40
Speaker 1: pleasing or withdrawal in isolation, things like that. What other
14:46
Speaker 1: cycles might people get stuck in? You know? Have you
14:49
Speaker 1: seen happen for people?
14:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that the two that you named are
14:52
Speaker 3: really good. I see a lot of people that are
14:54
Speaker 3: stuck in that people pleasing, appeasing, just trying to go
14:59
Speaker 3: along to keep safe and not speaking up for myself,
15:03
Speaker 3: not not sharing my own wants and needs because that
15:07
Speaker 3: doesn't feel safe to me. Maybe I've gotten yelled at
15:10
Speaker 3: when I have, or I'm afraid of getting yelled at,
15:13
Speaker 3: and so I kind of squash my own once, my desires,
15:18
Speaker 3: my opinions, and I just go along with the other person.
15:22
Speaker 3: Whether that's I mean, it could be something simple even
15:25
Speaker 3: like where do you want to go out to eat?
15:27
Speaker 2: Totally and not.
15:28
Speaker 3: Having an opinion about that and having the other person
15:32
Speaker 3: shoes and somebody that's that's caught in that where they
15:37
Speaker 3: really don't feel like they have any They might not
15:41
Speaker 3: they might have shut that down so much that they
15:43
Speaker 3: really don't have any preferences and they're like, I don't
15:46
Speaker 3: know where I want to go to eat. It really
15:48
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. And so sometimes I'll just encourage people to well,
15:54
Speaker 3: we're here in Nebraska. We have Southeast Community College, and
15:56
Speaker 3: we get the little Flyer, the little magazine catalog of
16:00
Speaker 3: all the different kind of fun classes that you can take.
16:03
Speaker 3: But I'm sure there's that those kinds of things offered
16:05
Speaker 3: in other communities too. But I'll often tell clients like,
16:09
Speaker 3: go home, grab that look through that and see which
16:13
Speaker 3: things sound appealing to you. You know, would it be
16:16
Speaker 3: taking a dance class, or a painting class, or a
16:18
Speaker 3: drawing class, or cooking class, card making, I don't know.
16:23
Speaker 3: There's so many different classes that you can take, but
16:26
Speaker 3: I think looking through that and kind of figuring out
16:31
Speaker 3: what sounds appealing to me If I was going to
16:33
Speaker 3: take a class, which class would I pick? That can
16:36
Speaker 3: be a way to start I guess, unfreezing the way
16:41
Speaker 3: that we've shut ourselves down, and then actually do it.
16:44
Speaker 2: Try it.
16:45
Speaker 3: Take a class or there's so many things on YouTube
16:48
Speaker 3: you can just look up on YouTube like how to
16:49
Speaker 3: watercolor or whatever and try that, or how to draw
16:54
Speaker 3: and start doing some of those things and try them
16:57
Speaker 3: out and see do I like this, don't I like this?
17:01
Speaker 3: But trying to get more of a sense of who
17:04
Speaker 3: am I really? What are my desires? What are my
17:08
Speaker 3: what are the things that I enjoy, you know, different hobbies,
17:12
Speaker 3: those kinds of things. Also just thinking about I do
17:16
Speaker 3: work with clients a lot of times around their values.
17:18
Speaker 2: What things do you value? What's important to you?
17:23
Speaker 3: And then how can we live in line with our
17:26
Speaker 3: values instead of just shoving those down and not really
17:30
Speaker 3: doing anything with those.
17:39
Speaker 1: And I love that you just brought up values because
17:42
Speaker 1: kind of where my mind is going for a next
17:44
Speaker 1: question is around the inner critic, you know, so self
17:50
Speaker 1: criticism can be such a stopper of any of these things,
17:55
Speaker 1: you know, like you're suggesting whether that's you can't do
17:59
Speaker 1: that well, you don't know what you're doing, what if
18:01
Speaker 1: you fail, or what if or it could I don't
18:04
Speaker 1: have money, you know, and all of those things can
18:06
Speaker 1: be you know, it's not to say none of those
18:09
Speaker 1: things you might fail, you might not have money, I
18:11
Speaker 1: mean those It's not to say that the inner critic
18:14
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily naming partially true things sometimes, but it can
18:19
Speaker 1: keep us from taking just whatever the next right step is.
18:26
Speaker 1: And so in kind of in that vein thinking about
18:29
Speaker 1: values and something I've really been processing within myself but
18:34
Speaker 1: within clients, within our group, we've been talking about this
18:37
Speaker 1: a little bit, how values are. At least I grew
18:43
Speaker 1: up with this idea that values are sort of set
18:47
Speaker 1: you know, throughout your life, that you have a set
18:49
Speaker 1: of values, that you will always live by them, and
18:52
Speaker 1: that when you're acting outside of your value system, you
18:55
Speaker 1: feel guilty. You know you've done something wrong or shameful.
18:58
Speaker 1: But what I'm beginning to understand over these years of
19:02
Speaker 1: this work you know that I'm doing and listening to
19:06
Speaker 1: you and so many others talking about this, is that
19:09
Speaker 1: values actually change over our lifetime. And it's not to
19:14
Speaker 1: say that all values change, but sometimes the value of
19:19
Speaker 1: say keeping the peace or not having a need might
19:25
Speaker 1: be an implicit value that needs to change somehow. And
19:29
Speaker 1: then with a change of value is going to come
19:33
Speaker 1: that feeling of guilt because I am going against a
19:37
Speaker 1: learned value that I have. So for me, for instance,
19:41
Speaker 1: you know, productivity is a big piece of my value,
19:45
Speaker 1: like don't be lazy, don't you know, always be producing,
19:51
Speaker 1: be effective. If you're doing something, do it to the
19:53
Speaker 1: best of your ability. Well that's exhausting, you know. I
19:58
Speaker 1: could do that really well till about forty and then
20:01
Speaker 1: I just started, you know, caving a little bit. So
20:05
Speaker 1: my value has changed around that, and around that comes
20:09
Speaker 1: the feeling the inner critic comes up, the feeling of
20:11
Speaker 1: guilt comes up. Anything you would want to add to
20:15
Speaker 1: that idea of values changing and things like that over
20:18
Speaker 1: our life.
20:20
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I think you named that really well, that
20:22
Speaker 3: our values do change, and I think it's okay to
20:27
Speaker 3: acknowledge that that, oh there's a shift here. This is
20:30
Speaker 3: something I used to value and now it's I don't
20:34
Speaker 3: value it as much anymore. And that's okay, And I
20:36
Speaker 3: think we can think about I think it does help.
20:39
Speaker 3: And you mentioned you know it worked up Tell forty
20:42
Speaker 3: for you. I think that brings up that idea of
20:45
Speaker 3: different seasons of life. You know that as we move
20:48
Speaker 3: into different seasons of life, that different things are important
20:52
Speaker 3: to us, and what was once really important to us
20:55
Speaker 3: in an earlier stage might not be as important to
20:58
Speaker 3: us anymore, and that takes more of a back seat.
21:01
Speaker 3: So I think about I had shared this recently. I
21:03
Speaker 3: was talking to somebody and saying, like, when I was
21:07
Speaker 3: like in my twenties and thirties, I loved what I
21:09
Speaker 3: was doing.
21:10
Speaker 2: I loved what I was doing at work.
21:12
Speaker 3: And I had worked for a period of time at
21:17
Speaker 3: a few different universities in their career centers, helping students
21:20
Speaker 3: figure out what to major in and preparing for job interviews,
21:24
Speaker 3: those kinds of things, and I loved working with the
21:25
Speaker 3: college students. I thought it was so much fun, and
21:28
Speaker 3: I thought, I'm going to be doing this the rest
21:30
Speaker 3: of my life. And then I had kids and that changed.
21:34
Speaker 3: And it wasn't that that job didn't wasn't important to me,
21:39
Speaker 3: or wasn't a fulfilling job. It really was, but my priorities,
21:43
Speaker 3: my values changed when I had children, and you know,
21:48
Speaker 3: I was fortunate enough to be able to stay home,
21:51
Speaker 3: you know, with my kids when they were little, and
21:55
Speaker 3: that became more of my value, was nurturing my own children.
21:59
Speaker 3: And then you know, did that for a period of time.
22:02
Speaker 3: And now that they're grown there in college or out
22:04
Speaker 3: of college, and they're young adults living on their own,
22:08
Speaker 3: and so now I feel like I'm coming back to
22:10
Speaker 3: investing more in my work. But I'm also I notice
22:13
Speaker 3: I'm doing it in a more balanced way than I
22:15
Speaker 3: probably did when I was younger. And work isn't my
22:19
Speaker 3: whole life. Work is a part of my life. So
22:22
Speaker 3: I think that is speaking about the values changing. But
22:25
Speaker 3: also I think you talked about that inner critic, and
22:28
Speaker 3: I think to notice that and just to name it,
22:31
Speaker 3: and I've heard a few different people. I think one
22:34
Speaker 3: was is doctor Daniel Ahman talks about naming your brain
22:39
Speaker 3: and then you know, oh, that's just my brain telling
22:42
Speaker 3: me that you know that we can listen to that
22:45
Speaker 3: and decide, is that something I need to pay attention to.
22:48
Speaker 3: Maybe there's a kernel of truth in that that I
22:50
Speaker 3: need to pay attention to and do something about.
22:53
Speaker 2: But it could just be an old tape playing in
22:55
Speaker 2: my head.
22:56
Speaker 3: And so I can acknowledge that and say, yeah, I'm
22:59
Speaker 3: not going to listen to you anymore.
23:01
Speaker 2: I'm going to go do this instead. But I think
23:04
Speaker 2: that works better to acknowledge that inner critic and then shift,
23:08
Speaker 2: you know, say well, I'm going to do this anyway,
23:10
Speaker 2: even though I feel like maybe I'll do it wrong. Okay,
23:14
Speaker 2: maybe I will do it wrong, but I'm going to
23:16
Speaker 2: learn something from it rather than just borrying it or
23:21
Speaker 2: right or.
23:21
Speaker 3: Trying to shove it down. If we try to shove
23:23
Speaker 3: it down, it's going to pop out. Yeah, yeah, you know,
23:26
Speaker 3: shoving stuff down doesn't work.
23:29
Speaker 1: Right, We know, at least over time. But I think
23:33
Speaker 1: we know this on one hand, but we're human, so
23:37
Speaker 1: we we have to learn this experientially, just like everybody
23:40
Speaker 1: else does, you know, like we all sort of get
23:43
Speaker 1: this intellectually, and yet you know, I, myself, you other
23:48
Speaker 1: peoples that are listening might be thinking, and yet there's
23:53
Speaker 1: this this pattern this pattern. I know it's unhealthy or
23:59
Speaker 1: at worst, or I know at best, it's just something
24:01
Speaker 1: I want to get out of, and I can't stop it.
24:05
Speaker 1: It's continuing to go on. What would you say to
24:08
Speaker 1: that person that's like, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I've
24:11
Speaker 1: heard this, I've heard all this, but I just don't
24:13
Speaker 1: know how to make a change.
24:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's really hard.
24:19
Speaker 3: Making changes are hard because we are used to We
24:24
Speaker 3: get into this pattern or this habit of doing things,
24:27
Speaker 3: and so that is hard, and it's taking a risk
24:31
Speaker 3: to step outside of that. And so I think a
24:35
Speaker 3: couple of things that I often encourage people to do
24:38
Speaker 3: and I try to use this myself when I'm trying
24:40
Speaker 3: to make a change is again other people. It's so
24:44
Speaker 3: important to have other people for support that you can
24:47
Speaker 3: call and say, hey, I really I'm trying to do
24:51
Speaker 3: this differently, you know, can I check in with you
24:55
Speaker 3: at the end of the day to tell you about
24:57
Speaker 3: my progress in this or whatever. And also doing things
25:01
Speaker 3: small in a really tiny you know, thinking about making
25:04
Speaker 3: those trying to make those new steps really really tiny.
25:08
Speaker 2: So if I.
25:11
Speaker 3: Want to get better at working out, maybe it's just
25:14
Speaker 3: you know, putting on my shorts and T shirt and
25:17
Speaker 3: my tennis shoes and walking out to the mailbox and
25:21
Speaker 3: saying I'm just going to get dressed and go out
25:23
Speaker 3: to the mailbox. And then when I get to the mailbox,
25:26
Speaker 3: I might decide, oh, I'm already out here, I'm going
25:28
Speaker 3: to it's a nice day, I'm going to go for
25:29
Speaker 3: a walk. And so we might get that in. But
25:32
Speaker 3: if we can make that initial step super super small,
25:37
Speaker 3: so it seems like, yeah, that's so easy to put
25:40
Speaker 3: my clothes on, put my pin of shoes on, and
25:42
Speaker 3: walk out to the mailbox. Anybody can do that. And
25:45
Speaker 3: then once I'm there, I can do more.
25:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's beautiful. I was thinking about tiny new steps.
25:52
Speaker 1: I love the idea of this tiny little step at
25:56
Speaker 1: a time because in and of itself, it goes against
26:01
Speaker 1: the mindset that can say it needs to be all
26:05
Speaker 1: different now, which is so it's so defeating because it
26:10
Speaker 1: can't be, you know, like I believe Grace includes this
26:15
Speaker 1: whole idea and mercy includes this whole idea of increments,
26:19
Speaker 1: you know, like we can only we can only bear
26:21
Speaker 1: so much change or difference at one time. And it
26:26
Speaker 1: also makes me think about this concept of tiny little
26:29
Speaker 1: promises to myself, and I do this with clients a lot.
26:33
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, what's one tiny little promise you can
26:36
Speaker 1: think to yourself that you know you can keep and
26:39
Speaker 1: build self trust? Because I'd love to hear your thoughts
26:43
Speaker 1: about self trust and how that all might play into
26:46
Speaker 1: this whole picture of movement and recovery and healing and
26:52
Speaker 1: things like that.
26:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good concept.
26:55
Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought that up about self trust because
26:59
Speaker 3: when we've been in safe or toxic environments and we've
27:03
Speaker 3: been around people that aren't trustworthy, we also we can
27:08
Speaker 3: tend to be untrustworthy with ourselves and not keep our
27:11
Speaker 3: Like you talked about our little promises to ourselves. And
27:15
Speaker 3: so that's a really important piece of healing and doing
27:18
Speaker 3: something differently, is to make sure that I'm I'm a
27:23
Speaker 3: trustworthy person to myself. If I say that I'm going
27:27
Speaker 3: to do this, that I do it, and I think
27:30
Speaker 3: as we continue to do that over time, and we
27:33
Speaker 3: both know this, we're not going to do it perfectly.
27:35
Speaker 3: We're not going to do it all the time, but
27:37
Speaker 3: it's again it's working towards that in small steps, but
27:41
Speaker 3: making sure that I'm keeping my word if I've said
27:45
Speaker 3: that I'm going to do this to myself, keeping my
27:48
Speaker 3: word to myself, not just to other people.
27:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I often think of it in terms of, you know,
27:55
Speaker 1: when we're if we've had children or nieces or nephews
27:58
Speaker 1: or been around children who are pot training, you know,
28:00
Speaker 1: they get a little treat for every time they use
28:03
Speaker 1: the potty. That's how simple I have to make it
28:06
Speaker 1: in my mind, is like, it doesn't have to be
28:09
Speaker 1: anything major. It's like I got up and had breakfast
28:12
Speaker 1: this morning, and that's a promise I made to myself
28:16
Speaker 1: and I did it, and you get an eminem yay,
28:19
Speaker 1: good job, you know for that. And again coming back
28:24
Speaker 1: to this concept of when we recognize something is not right,
28:29
Speaker 1: we can try all of these ways to solve the
28:32
Speaker 1: problem and keeping it simple, coming back to these little
28:37
Speaker 1: tiny things and just trying them. You know, I often
28:42
Speaker 1: say too, you reserve the right to edit your life
28:45
Speaker 1: at any point, you know, and that gives us freedom
28:49
Speaker 1: to try something or fail at something, to make ourselves
28:54
Speaker 1: a promise and let ourselves down. But part of the
28:59
Speaker 1: importance I think that we're naming here too is staying
29:03
Speaker 1: learning how to recognize what's real, like what's authentically happening
29:09
Speaker 1: here instead of trying to produce something that we think
29:13
Speaker 1: should be happening or genuinely should be happening and isn't,
29:18
Speaker 1: or trying to fix somebody out there that we can't solve,
29:23
Speaker 1: that we can't fix out there. Any other thoughts come
29:27
Speaker 1: to your mind around that concept.
29:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great, And I often talk to clients too,
29:31
Speaker 3: just about what's in your circle of control? You know
29:34
Speaker 3: that typically you know, if I'm trying to change another person,
29:38
Speaker 3: they're outside of my circle of control. What I have
29:41
Speaker 3: control over is myself. You know, what what I choose
29:45
Speaker 3: to do with my time, what I choose to eat,
29:48
Speaker 3: if I choose to exercise or not, my attitude, those
29:52
Speaker 3: kinds of things, Those are the things that are within
29:55
Speaker 3: my circle of control. Everything else is outside of my
29:58
Speaker 3: circle of control. And going back to the habit, the
30:02
Speaker 3: little habits that you talked about, I had seen something
30:05
Speaker 3: recently about adult sticker charts, and I thought it was
30:09
Speaker 3: so much fun. But you know, to think about you know,
30:14
Speaker 3: when you were talking about potty training, I remember we
30:16
Speaker 3: had a little sticker chart in the bathroom and they
30:18
Speaker 3: kids would put their stickers on.
30:20
Speaker 2: But so that can be really helpful for us too
30:23
Speaker 2: as adults.
30:24
Speaker 3: Is if we want to start a new habit, like
30:26
Speaker 3: if I want to start walking, you know, maybe putting
30:29
Speaker 3: a sticker on my calendar. I mean, even if it
30:32
Speaker 3: sounds kind of silly, but you can look at it
30:35
Speaker 3: there and it's visual, you can track it. I think
30:38
Speaker 3: that kind of goes along with like goal setting. If
30:41
Speaker 3: we're setting goals, it has to be measurable. How do
30:43
Speaker 3: we know if we did it or not. And so
30:45
Speaker 3: even if I just got up and walked out to
30:47
Speaker 3: my mailbox, I get a sticker on my calendar, and
30:51
Speaker 3: then to say to add in skip days, like I
30:55
Speaker 3: can skip one or two days, whatever you decide, but
30:59
Speaker 3: to think, this is a habit that I want to do.
31:02
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna like put a sticker or a check
31:05
Speaker 3: mark or something like that on my calendar each day
31:10
Speaker 3: that I do it, and I'm allowed to skip once
31:12
Speaker 3: a week or twice a week, whatever we decide. But
31:15
Speaker 3: then that that really reinforces it. And I think that's
31:19
Speaker 3: another thing with building self trust too, is if I
31:22
Speaker 3: get up one morning and I don't put on my
31:24
Speaker 3: shoes and walk out to the mailbox, and I feel
31:27
Speaker 3: like well I didn't do it.
31:29
Speaker 2: That's done.
31:30
Speaker 3: I failed because we get back into that, you know,
31:33
Speaker 3: like you were talking.
31:34
Speaker 1: About it all over now, right, yeah.
31:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so if we do something like nope I had,
31:40
Speaker 3: I can skip once or twice a week tomorrow I'll go,
31:44
Speaker 3: you know, walk out to the mailbox. So some of
31:47
Speaker 3: those little practical tips like that too, is just at
31:51
Speaker 3: building in times for when we aren't going to feel
31:55
Speaker 3: like doing whatever the thing is and making that be okay.
32:00
Speaker 3: But then we're also going to get back on and
32:02
Speaker 3: get back on track and keep going.
32:05
Speaker 1: I'm thinking to just shifting the conversation back to you know,
32:11
Speaker 1: remembering what the context of where we're at right here
32:16
Speaker 1: is living in some degree of unsafety, you know, and
32:22
Speaker 1: we're trying to toggle or navigate this change from feeling
32:29
Speaker 1: like unsafe as safe to what does feel safe and
32:36
Speaker 1: legitimately is safe and can help me feel a feeling
32:40
Speaker 1: of I'm showing up for myself, I can trust myself,
32:44
Speaker 1: I'm worthy. I'm just I'm thinking about how to think
32:50
Speaker 1: about that, you know, And I'm thinking about how these
32:53
Speaker 1: these even being stuck and not keeping promises to ourselves
32:58
Speaker 1: and dismissing ourselves or of the reality or the truth.
33:02
Speaker 1: These are all ways that we've survived. They have in
33:06
Speaker 1: some way protected us over our lifetime in some way.
33:10
Speaker 1: Otherwise we wouldn't be doing them right. Our right body
33:14
Speaker 1: and our nervous systems are designed to survive. And so
33:20
Speaker 1: how do we hold compassion for the old ways and
33:25
Speaker 1: not get critical, you know, not just turn the critic
33:28
Speaker 1: a different direction. And now I'm going to buckle down
33:31
Speaker 1: on keeping all these promises myself and do it perfectly,
33:35
Speaker 1: you know, and then somewhere down the road find myself
33:38
Speaker 1: burnt out again. How do we start? What are your
33:40
Speaker 1: thoughts about that? That compassion and curiosity and things like that.
33:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, that self compassion is so important, and I think
33:49
Speaker 3: I think it's Doctor Kristin Neff has done a lot
33:52
Speaker 3: of work on that and has some like quizzes on
33:56
Speaker 3: her website about different areas of self compassion and developing that.
34:01
Speaker 3: And I think it is just kind of like I
34:04
Speaker 3: talked about with the sticker charter or the calendar tracking.
34:07
Speaker 3: What I'm trying to change is when I do miss that,
34:11
Speaker 3: it's not this huge thing that I'm like, yeah, I missed,
34:14
Speaker 3: I'm human. I'll do that tomorrow or thinking in terms
34:18
Speaker 3: of relationships too, and trying to move shift into healthier
34:23
Speaker 3: relationships or create a healthier system for our nervous system.
34:27
Speaker 3: Healthier environment is to notice when do I feel safe
34:33
Speaker 3: when I'm around certain people, To just start noticing how
34:37
Speaker 3: do I feel when I'm around this friend or that friend,
34:39
Speaker 3: or this coworker or that boss or family member, but
34:44
Speaker 3: to think about how do I feel when I'm with them,
34:47
Speaker 3: and just kind of tuning into that how do I feel,
34:51
Speaker 3: and then noticing which people I feel more safety with
34:56
Speaker 3: or just feel more relaxed with, and which people I don't.
35:00
Speaker 3: And then it can be just this slight shift of
35:05
Speaker 3: how can I spend a little bit more time in
35:08
Speaker 3: my day or in my week with some of these
35:11
Speaker 3: people that help me to feel more safe and regulated,
35:15
Speaker 3: So that can help. Another thing is different places, What
35:19
Speaker 3: places do I feel really safe and contained in? So
35:24
Speaker 3: that could be a certain spot in your home, it
35:29
Speaker 3: could be a park, it could be you know, being
35:34
Speaker 3: in your car by yourself, or a coffee shop. Just
35:36
Speaker 3: thinking about different places that I go where I can
35:40
Speaker 3: feel safe and then spending time in those places.
35:43
Speaker 2: So when I'm.
35:43
Speaker 3: Justsregulated, I know which people that I could maybe call
35:48
Speaker 3: or text or try to hang out with or what
35:51
Speaker 3: places that I could go to, or what things that
35:54
Speaker 3: I enjoy doing. I talked about hobbies a little earlier.
35:56
Speaker 3: If we can develop those hobbies, if I can and
36:00
Speaker 3: some time drawing or something that that helps helps me
36:03
Speaker 3: to feel more grounded and more safe and connected in
36:06
Speaker 3: my body, and then really shifting in how can I
36:09
Speaker 3: work that into my week. I think we often just
36:12
Speaker 3: go through on autopilot. You know, I have to get up,
36:15
Speaker 3: you know, if we have kids at home still, get
36:17
Speaker 3: the kids out the door soon, back to school again,
36:21
Speaker 3: get to work, you know, run errands, pick up groceries,
36:26
Speaker 3: cooked dinner, all the things, help with homework, and we're
36:29
Speaker 3: just on autopilot all the time. So if we can
36:32
Speaker 3: just kind of plan in little times in our day
36:36
Speaker 3: where we're kind of chucking in with ourselves and how
36:38
Speaker 3: am I doing right now? And do I need to connect?
36:42
Speaker 3: And it might be, you know, maybe I can call
36:44
Speaker 3: this friend and tomorrow we can meet for coffee for
36:46
Speaker 3: an hour. Or it might be I'm just going to
36:49
Speaker 3: take five minutes and go sit in my backyard and
36:52
Speaker 3: listen to the birds. So it could be things that
36:55
Speaker 3: are really small and short and don't take like you
36:58
Speaker 3: don't have to set it up. It could just be
37:00
Speaker 3: something like that, yeah, or you know, sitting sometimes. I
37:05
Speaker 3: mean I remember back when I had kids at home,
37:08
Speaker 3: sometimes it was locking myself in the bathroom here for
37:11
Speaker 3: a few minutes of silence, just to get away and
37:15
Speaker 3: sit there, be by myself, close my eyes, take a
37:18
Speaker 3: few deep breaths.
37:19
Speaker 2: But things like that.
37:21
Speaker 3: Can help us to reregulate our nervous system when we're
37:25
Speaker 3: feeling like I feel like everything's out of control right now.
37:29
Speaker 1: What would you say to the woman because I'm hearing
37:33
Speaker 1: all of the yes, but you know, yes, but there's this,
37:37
Speaker 1: or yes but there's that. Yes, but what would you
37:39
Speaker 1: say to the woman who has created intentionally or unintentionally,
37:44
Speaker 1: usually unintentionally, a life of completely living in the margin
37:50
Speaker 1: where the only time that they have for themselves is
37:55
Speaker 1: you know, getting up an hour, you know, before sunrise
37:59
Speaker 1: to be able to breathe or do their Bible study
38:02
Speaker 1: or devotional or take a run, or you know, at
38:05
Speaker 1: midnight after the kids are all asleep and their husband's
38:09
Speaker 1: asleep and all tended to or whatever that case may be,
38:12
Speaker 1: and they just can't. They don't have an imagination for
38:16
Speaker 1: something different. What would you say to that person because
38:19
Speaker 1: we've all you know, we've all had that thought, but
38:21
Speaker 1: we certainly have compassion for that too.
38:25
Speaker 3: I think it can really help to think about to
38:28
Speaker 3: just dream, you know, think about what would I like
38:33
Speaker 3: my life to look like, what would be my ideal day?
38:37
Speaker 3: Then even if I can put some little piece of
38:40
Speaker 3: that in or I mean another practical step would be
38:43
Speaker 3: looking at my calendar, looking at my schedule and saying,
38:47
Speaker 3: are there any things that I can take off my schedule?
38:51
Speaker 3: And a lot of times people will say no, I can't.
38:54
Speaker 3: And I would just encourage people to really look at
38:58
Speaker 3: that and think about, you know, which things can I
39:01
Speaker 3: take off? Or if I'm supposed to take two dozen
39:04
Speaker 3: cookies to school, do I have to bake them? Or
39:07
Speaker 3: can I stop by the grocery store and pick up
39:09
Speaker 3: two dozen cookies? You know, thinking about how what are
39:12
Speaker 3: some little ways that I can like create little pockets
39:17
Speaker 3: of time, or you know, get out of certain commitments.
39:20
Speaker 3: And it could be having to say no, I'm not
39:23
Speaker 3: going to be on this committee or you know that thing,
39:26
Speaker 3: or I think it comes down to boundaries. A lot
39:30
Speaker 3: of times it's am I having healthy boundaries for myself
39:34
Speaker 3: with other people. And then also it goes back to
39:37
Speaker 3: that self trust am I having? Am I having good
39:39
Speaker 3: boundaries with myself with what I need? And that reminder
39:44
Speaker 3: that I'm not going to be able to care for
39:47
Speaker 3: people that I love if I've worn myself out and
39:50
Speaker 3: I end up in the hospital because I'm so exhausted.
39:54
Speaker 3: And so what can I do before I get to
39:56
Speaker 3: that place?
39:57
Speaker 2: You know? What things? Can I cut out? What things?
40:00
Speaker 2: Can I simplify? What things in.
40:02
Speaker 3: My home or at work or with friends or on
40:06
Speaker 3: committees that I'm on? Can I ask other people to
40:10
Speaker 3: take over doing? But it's hard, And again I keep
40:14
Speaker 3: saying this, I think we need other people. We need
40:17
Speaker 3: other people as sounding boards and other people to encourage
40:21
Speaker 3: us because making those changes is hard, and they're often
40:25
Speaker 3: is pushback from other people or from ourselves feeling that guilt.
40:30
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't take the homemade cookies or cupcakes.
40:33
Speaker 3: And if we're able to acknowledge that and say, yeah,
40:37
Speaker 3: I'm choosing not to do that so that I have
40:39
Speaker 3: time to do this instead.
40:47
Speaker 1: As we close today, I want to leave you with this.
40:51
Speaker 1: Healing doesn't usually happen in one dramatic moment. More often
40:57
Speaker 1: it happens in small, ordinary choices, repeated over time. Maybe
41:03
Speaker 1: your next step is simply noticing what happens inside of
41:06
Speaker 1: you when life gets quiet. Maybe it's taking a walk,
41:11
Speaker 1: calling someone safe, getting some sleep, keeping one small promise
41:17
Speaker 1: to yourself, or allowing yourself to believe that peace does
41:22
Speaker 1: not have to mean something bad is coming. Your body
41:26
Speaker 1: has been paying attention to your life for a long time,
41:30
Speaker 1: and if safety has not always felt safe, there are
41:33
Speaker 1: reasons for that. You do not have to force yourself
41:37
Speaker 1: into change. You can begin gently, one step at a time.
41:43
Speaker 1: Pay attention to the people, places, practices, and relationships that
41:48
Speaker 1: help you feel a little more grounded, a little more present,
41:52
Speaker 1: and a little more like yourself. And remember that healing
41:57
Speaker 1: is not meant to happen in isolation. We are wired
42:01
Speaker 1: for connection, and sometimes another safe person helps us recognize
42:07
Speaker 1: what we have not yet been able to see a
42:10
Speaker 1: name on our own. Thank you to Janet for joining
42:14
Speaker 1: me today and for the care and wisdom she brings
42:17
Speaker 1: to this work, And thank you for listening to Echoes
42:20
Speaker 1: and Edges the Broken and Beautiful Podcast. Until next time,
42:24
Speaker 1: may you give yourself permission to move slowly, listen closely,
42:30
Speaker 1: and take one small step toward the life that feels
42:34
Speaker 1: more whole, more spacious, and more true. If this episode
42:44
Speaker 1: resonates with you, follow or subscribe to Echoes and Edges
42:48
Speaker 1: on your favorite podcast platform, leave a five star review,
42:52
Speaker 1: and share with a friend who might need a gentle
42:54
Speaker 1: invitation to self understanding. Echoes and Edges is produced and
42:58
Speaker 1: edited by Steven car Sanders. Music promoted by Enbado