Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / How to Talk to Kids About Sex with Miranda Featherstone

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How to Talk to Kids About Sex with Miranda Featherstone · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to parent Data by Emily Oster. This is Emily.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I'm a professor of economics at Brown University and a
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: mom of two. I write a newsletter called parent Data,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: and on this podcast, i'll read.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: It to you.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: If you want to read the newsletter yourself and see
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: more of my writing on parenting and pregnancy, you can
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: sign up for free at www dot parentdata dot org.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: You'll get reader stories, Q and as and other special
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: features in your inbox that I don't share here. And
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: now for today's newsletter, thank you so much for joining me.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I'd love to ask you to just briefly introduce yourself
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: before we get started.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Cool. Yeah, thanks for having me. I am Miranda Featherstone.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I'm a social worker and a writer. I do school
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: based counseling work with children and families, and over the
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: years I've worked with kids from preschool to high school.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: I write about parenting and families, among other subjects, and
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: I teach second I also work with schools to create
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: inclusive sexual health curricula that works for them.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Okay, So I wanted to give some context for
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: this conversation and of why we are here. So last
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: fall I read a piece that you wrote in the
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: New York Times about losing your mom, and at that time,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: my mom was also very ill, and the piece like
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: really spoke to me, by which I mean that I
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: was crying in my cereal And then I found out
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: you lived in Rhoe Island, and I decided that I
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: was making my friend. So I invited you to have
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: coffee with me with this excuse of talking to you
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: about helping me in the newsletter on some of these
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: issues about how to talk to kids about these big
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: tough topics. And one output of that was that you
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: wrote a really wonderful piece which we'll link here on
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: talking to kids about death. But we actually spent a
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: lot of that conversation talking about kids and sex or
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: how to talk to kids about sex. And then when
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I sort of sat down to try to think about
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: writing about those things, I realized that I more or
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: less just wanted people to be able to listen to
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: that conversation. So I'm just trying to replicate our coffee
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: conversation in this in this podcast episode so great. So
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I think of this big underlying question is just how
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: can I discuss sex and where babies come from with
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: my kids in a way that works for me and
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: works for them. So that's a big overarching starting point.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: But I actually want to be like super concrete to start.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: So we're in the car. My three year old says, Mommy,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: how did the baby get in your tummy? And I
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: want you to tell me what to say.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: I think, in terms of the questions are going to get,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: that's a pretty easy one. You just say, like, I
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: have eggs in my body, and you know, depending on
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: your family situation, it's a big assumption. But you might say,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: daddy has sperm in his body, and when they when
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: you bring a sperm and an egg together, that makes
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: something called an embryo, which grows into something called a fetus,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: which grows into something that is a baby, and then
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: when the baby is enough and big enough, it comes out.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: That's obviously it's very adjustable, right, because sperm doesn't have
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: to come from daddy. I worked anywhere I really can. Yeah,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I mean I worked with someone who was really into
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: you know, she was an educator. She was very into
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: like peanut butter and jelly metaphor. I can get peanut
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: butter lots of different places. I feel like that's confusing,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: But the idea is right that these are two substances,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: their origins are pretty flexible, but that's what you need
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: to make a baby, Okay.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: So I think that's great and that feels very doable.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: The piece that I struggled the most with, and I
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: think many people I talked to struggle with, is the
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: follow up, which, to be fair, with the three year old,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: mostly they just kind of move on to PJ masks
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: or whatever. But eventually, even as you're kid is a
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: little older, you get the follow up of kind of
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: how do the sperm in the egg get together? And
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: I will say candidly, my approach to that went more
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: with the science than the sex, and so more in
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: the like will the egg in this firm swims and
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: it comes in and you're like really like detailed will
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: than myosis, you know, like it really going into that,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that that that leaves out this other piece.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: So that's the part I find harder to navigate.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that is definitely harder to navigate. You are
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: not alone and like just really making it all about
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: the biology, and I think that there are ages like
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: that's okay for a bit, but at some point you
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: want your kids to know about sex, and you.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: I'm Miranda, I want them to know about that.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Well, because the culture is already talking to your kids
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: about sex, and you are already sending your k it's
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: messages about sex. So you probably to some extent want
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: to be in control of the actual narrative around sex.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: And it's tricky because you know, I think my own
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: philosophy of parenting is that it's a lot of it
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: is about letting go of control. But that's much easier
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: to do if you've sort of started out by laying
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: a foundation of understanding. And I think a question that
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: is really helpful to ask is what do you want
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: your kids to understand about sex, gender, sexuality and your
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: own values around those things? Right, So you do actually
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: want them to know about sex because you don't want
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: them to hear about it from like sat kid who's
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: like in their class, who's going around telling everybody what
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: uplow jab is in second grade. You know, like those
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: kids are real, they're out there, they exist. You are
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: going to be better equipped to explain sex and sexuality
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: to your kids than that kid.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I agree with that. I'm better than that kid, And
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  Speaker 1: I think the piece of this that again is hard
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: and hear what you're saying about, you know, trying to
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: think about how it fits in with your family values.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Is the.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Part of sex that's about like making a baby. The
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: part of sex about this is how mechanically the sperm
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: gets in with the egg, you know, is one thing
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: that already I think many of us are a little
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable explaining to our kids. But then the other piece
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: of it. You and I talked a lot about this
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: in the first conversation, and I think you really changed
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: how I was thinking about it. The second piece of
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: it is the idea of sex, and not just penetrated
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: vaginal sex, but sex activities in general as something that
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: people do for fun. And I'd love you to just
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how one navigates communicating that
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: aspect of this in you know, ways that are going
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: to vary across families.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Corey Silverberg does a really good job. Corey Silverberg,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: you know, for your readers, is the author of a
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: number of books for kids about sex and sexuality, and
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: they do. Silverburg uses say them pronouns. They do a
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: really wonderful job of sort of defining the three ways
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: that our culture uses the word sex, right, Sex is
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: one way that we talk about, you know, whether someone
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: is born with a volva or a penis. Sex is
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: one way that people make a baby. There are also
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: other ways, and sex is something that people do to
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: feel good in their bodies and maybe to connect with
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: other people. Helping kids to see that there's this one
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: very or word that means all those different things is
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: really important. And I think that that that's an appropriate
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: body of knowledge for elementary schoolers to be grappling with.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: And you know, the idea that sex is something that
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: people do to feel good in their bodies, that's I
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: don't think when you frame it like that, I don't
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: think that's scary. I don't think that's intense. It's not
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: explicit at all, and it doesn't mean that there won't
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: be follow up questions that you know might feel scary
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: to you or explicit, but you know, presenting them with
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: that one meaning of what sex is is so important.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: You know, most of the sex that most people have
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: is not for reproductive purposes. So it's very confusing when
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: we're teaching kids about sex and sexuality to yoke sex
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: and reproduction and not break it down. You want kids
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: to connect to these conversations. You want them to connect
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: to the subject matter. And when we connect sex and
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: reproduction and sort of buying them together, we're essentially saying
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: that sex between two people who can't make a baby
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: isn't sex, or that sex that isn't for reproductive purposes
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: isn't something that we can talk about.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not what you want. That's not what you want.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: You know. The thing that strikes me in these conversations
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: is the need for the conversation to have to happen
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: many times, and the value of that conversation happening in
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: a many times way, as opposed to the way that
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I think I thought about it when I was a kid,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: which is like you have the sex talk. Like at
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: some point there's a thing called the sex talk, you
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: have it, and then that's pretty much it. And that
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: is in some ways the way I experience this. But
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I also can see from this conversation that that is
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: not a super productive way to do this, in part
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: because as kids age, it is going to be more
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: and more appropriate to introduce different pieces of the language
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: and different pieces of what this means. And if we
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: just have one conversation, it's not going to be sufficient
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: if the lines of communication they're not open, is not
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: going to be sufficient to have the conversations we need
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: to have.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Like I mean, I think there are a
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: lot of parallels actually to talking about death. You know,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: these are like my chance right death and the fact
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: because in some ways they're very connected. Like we sort
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: of imagine that we are going to explain this once
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: and then it's done. But each developmental stage is going
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: to require new questions, new information. Kids also don't take
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: stuff in in one conversation, Like I mean, I imagine
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: any of us with verbal children have had the experience
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: of being like, you know, next week we're going to
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Pittsburgh and the kid is like what you never told
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: me that? And you're like no, no, Like I for
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: real did we talked about this? But it's like, you know,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: they need to hear things multiple times in different ways,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: sometimes from different people. And that's true of you know,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: driving to Pittsburgh, and it's also true of you know,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: sex is something that people do to feel good in
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: their bodies, or you know, egg and sperm are what
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: make a baby, or you know, everybody will die, Like
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: these are all things that you have to sort of
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: hear and process at each developmental stage.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: The piece of that transition, in that continual conversation that
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: has these challenges is the move I think as kids
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: age into a sort of what is the appropriate next
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: step in the next conversation. So I'll give you an example.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: I was talking to it Fell, her parent, about this
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: this issue, and she explained that she was in like
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: quite a bad place on this because she had told
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: her kids about sex in this kind of very medicalized
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: about how babies were made in this very medicalized way, which,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: as she got furthered down the road, ended up sounding like,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: you know, like not only had she had IVF, which
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: actually she hadn't, but that that was how all babies
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: were made, that like there's always a doctor involved and
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: they do it. And then at some point her you know,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: eight or eight or nine year old was sort of like,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: but wait, what about animals? And she was like, I
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: didn't know. I sort of changed the subject, like I
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: had gotten into this place where it's not exactly lying,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: but you then needed to back up and fill in,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: and I guess, yeah, you know, I guess then the
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: answer is maybe you're just shou'd be willing to say,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: you know what, let me expand a little bit on this.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: That's actually it's such a good example of a question.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Animals actually provide excellent opportunities for so many conversations. They
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: they die, and they also are not shy about having
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: sex in public. So if you spend much time at
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: the zoo, I find the zoo to be kind of
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: a downer, but a lot of kids like the zoo.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: And if you spend enough time at the zoo, you're
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: you're probably gonna see some animals having sex. And our
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: inclination might be to be like, okay, moving right along, friends,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: like let's go check out that no cone, how about that?
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: But it's it's like a totally reasonable opportunity to say, like,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, like oh the monkeys are having sex, and
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know whether they're doing that to make a
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: baby monkey or like to feel good in their bodies.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Like could be anything really hard to the second one. Yeah,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: So I guess I want to I want to pivot
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the scarier reason why. Actually
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's really important to have these open lines
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: of communication, which is that normalize some of these discussions.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: And this is you point you made when we were
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: talking before the show, are ways to make sure that
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: lines of communication are open if your kids, you know,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: God forbid, if there's an issue of sexual abuse, or
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: if they are exposed to some kind of porn or
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: other Internet related things that they are not ready for.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: So I'd love you to talk a little bit about
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: sort of how we think about the role of normalizing
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: this conversation in addressing those issues or preparing for those issues,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: or maybe that's the wrong word.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, And I think that your sort of data
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: perspective on this is really helpful. I don't think the
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: data on the average age that a child is exposed
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: to pornography is necessarily very good, but it certainly offers
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: food for thought and is startling to a lot of people.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: You might see different sort of ages thrown out there.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: I think eleven as one. I've heard younger. I've also
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: heard older. I don't know how that data.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Data like this is very, very hard to collect systematically,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: but certainly you can see numbers that seem quite scary.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: And I think it reflects, you know, in my own
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: practice and my work in schools. I'm with kids and families,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: you know, I hear about kids being exposed to porn,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: they find it accidentally. They are curious about sex, and
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: so they use the Internet to try to answer questions
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: about sex. Or very often an older kid, maybe an
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: older kid on the bus or a cousin shows them
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: something or a peer sends it to them or describes
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: it to them. And that's really not unusual. Yeah, it's
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: more common than any of us would like it to be.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: And I think it's really important for your kids to
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: know what porn is and that it exists before they're
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: exposed to it. And I think that's it's it's a
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: really important part of sort of internet safety and sexual
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: health and mental health is to prep your kids for
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: hearing and seeing unsettling things about sex on the internet.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: You know, and you can say, you know, porn is
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: not for kids. Porn is movies that grown ups make
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: of people having sex, and it's not for kids, like
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: it's not okay for kids to look at. It's not
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: designed to be educational. It doesn't necessarily reflect reality. And
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: you can, certainly you share your own values at this moment,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: people's values around porn differ quite a bit, but you know,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: the main takeaway needs to be that it's out there.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: It's not educational, it's not for kids, and it's always
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: something that you can talk to me about if somebody
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: shows it to you or if you find it, if
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: you see something anything upsetting online, you know, please let
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: me know, Like you know, I want to talk about
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: it with you at you won't be on t I
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: won't be mad for me.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: That last piece. I think that's such an important part
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: of the message. And I maybe say this as someone
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: who's one of whose kids is like constantly afraid that
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: of being in trouble about stuff in this space, and
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: just to say, like, you know, yes, it's not for kids,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: it's not something that you should look at, but if
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: you see something that makes you uncomfortable, you should absolutely
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: tell me. And I am not going to be angry
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: with you for having had that reaction or for the
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: fact that something happened you you know, you didn't have
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: control over one.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think similarly, you know, talking to kids
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: in a really frank way about sex and sexuality is
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: a really important important part of sexual abuse prevention and
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: the numbers around you know, sexual abuse and the number
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: of kids who you know will experience sexual abuse as
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: children or as adults. It's startling. Like again, I don't
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think that data is probably like water tight,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: but it's certainly like not it's not a particularly rare
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: thing to have happen. And you know, it's tricky because,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: like I think your approach online and helping parents to
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: navigate sort of the world of dangerous to children is
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: very similar in a lot of ways. Like I think
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: we really want to help people understand what the actual
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: risks are as opposed to like the things that we
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: all can sort of work ourselves into a panic over.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: And I don't want to be like fear mongering, but
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I do think that you know, sexual abuse and or
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: encountering like really yucky scary things online are things that
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: we should worry about our kids experiencing.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think there's
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: there's a fine line on all of these things between
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: kind of obsessively worrying about all of this stuff all
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: the time and you know, undertaking steps that will make
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: those things less likely to happen, or like make it
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: possible to address them if they do in the case
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: of something like porn. So I think that's a that's
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: always a little bit of a of a fine line.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: And I will say in the in the sort of
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: first piece of this about kind of exposure, it is
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: not just poor an exposure. So if you it is,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: there are all kinds of things that you will happen
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: in your kids peer groups, particularly as they enter sort
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: of the late elementary school stages, where things will happen
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: that they don't anticipate. You know, the kid who's pretending
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: to masturbate with a HOGI in the in the lunch room,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: and and then you know sort of like the question
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: of like what was what was that? Like what were
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: they pretending to do? And you know, you want that
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: line of communication to be open so you can be
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: the one who explains that and you know, deals with
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: the person who's like, why would someone do that?
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: A great question?
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Feel good in your body?
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, I mean they pretend to do with the.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that's just not a good job.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: That's a mystery to me. But yeah, it's And when
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I say it's something people should worry about, I don't
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: mean they should like fret compulsively about it. I just mean,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: you know, keeping the line of communication open is a
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: really important part of preventing something unpleasant happening that your
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: kids don't have an opportunity to process with trusted adults.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: You don't have to like feel chill when you talk
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: about this stuff. You just have to fake it, like
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: you don't have to actually be like, oh my gosh,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: this is so relaxing to talk to my kid about
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: masturbating with a HOGI but you do have to like
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: make it a conversation that they're going to be up
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: for returning too.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good I mean that
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: this is also the kind of pressure we put on
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: ourselves as parents, Like not only do I have to
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: have this conversation, but I have to be like enthusiastic
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: about it. I have to be doing it in like
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: a good You just say, like, you know what, it's
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: not going to be your best conversation, and you can
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: just you know, you can just move move through it.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Speaking of uncomfortable potential conversations, and I sort of ask
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: people for questions about this, one thing that came up
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: a lot is what if my kids see me having
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: sex like with their their with my partner whatever, whether
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: that's their their dad or mom. It's just like what
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: if the kids walk in like what do you.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Say, Yeah, that's never going to be fun. So I
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: think I would definitely just alln that that's going to be,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: you know, pretty unpleasant for the adults in the scenario.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: It may or may not be unpleasant for the kid,
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: depending on the age of the kid and their awareness
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: of what's going on. I do think it's you know,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: very reasonable to try to prevent that. It's like, that's
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: what you relax are for, Right's a great It's it's
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: really not. That's that's not like an unkind or an
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: unfair boundary to have. It's like a bedroom door that
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: lacks But that said, you know, it may happen anyway,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: And I think it really depends on the age of
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: the kid, right what you would want to say to them.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I think there are definitely ages where no explanation would
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: be necessary depending on what was seen. But obviously if
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: there's a question of like what were you guys doing,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I do think, like you think you just say, you
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: just say we're having sex?
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Oh god, okay.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: I mean like there's when we use euphemisms with kids,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: like they tend to get pretty confused. I mean, so
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: you could try it, but it's also like this is
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: a big thing with sexual abuse prevention too, Right, is
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: that like you want kids to know like the actual
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: language for things, right if they're going around calling, Like
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: if they walk in and you're like, oh, that was
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: like mommy and mom a special time or whatever, like special,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Like well, there's lots of things are special, you know,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Like is that really language that is going to be
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: helpful to them and like making fuense of this going forward? No,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: they know?
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Well lock your door is the main
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: lesson that we get from this conversation. Yeah, okay, So
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: last thing I want to talk briefly about is the
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: question of sex AD because I know this is where
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of your your work is and it's also
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: a place where actually, I think our data is quite
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: good in terms of supporting the sort of value of
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: comprehensive sex AD in various outcomes for kids. Can you
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So many children do not receive any kind of
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: sex AD in school, and many children receive sex AD
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: that is really driven by an abstinence only perspective, and
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: that's not good. I think the data is pretty clear
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: that comprehensive sex AD delays sex like delay is the
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: age that kids have sex, which is pretty positive. You know,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: you can be very sex positive and still acknowledge that,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: you know, the older kids are when they have sex
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: with the older teenagers or adults are, you know, the
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: more time they've had to think about their own values
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: and what they want out of sexual experiences. So that
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: seems really positive. And I think advocating within your children's
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: schools for comprehensive healthy sexuality education for all students, you know,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: starting in I would say fourth grade, I think it's
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important that kids have some information
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: about sexuality and puberty before most of them are going
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: through it. And I think it does a lot towards
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: certainly like leveling the playing field in terms of like
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: kids giving each other information or misinformation. But I also
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: think it kind of helps to create a really positive
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: culture as kids had towards middle school, in terms of
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: talking about consent, talking about gender and sexual orientation, and
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: just like talking about how we talk about sex. You know.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Like one activity that I do with when I teach
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: sex ed with late elementary schoolers is to like ask
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: them to reflect on, like what are the different things
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: you need consent for? And one of those is like
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: making a joke about sex, Like do you need someone's
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: consent to make a joke about sex? And I don't
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: like come down with like a hardline answer for them,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to like shame them and make
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: them feel bad like middle schoolers and you know the
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: greats like big joke about sex, like that's developmentally appropriate.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: But I do want them to think about, you know,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: when we talk about sex with other people, like how
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: does that impact them? Like how to gender dynamics play
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: into that, how to power dynamics play into that. These
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: are all conversations that can be supported by like sex
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: said curriculum. And I think that, you know, having that
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: opportunity in school also helps kids to be more media savvy,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: helps them to think sort of more about messaging about
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: body images, or it can if it's thoughtfully done. And
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: that the other big sort of bonus of sex said
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: in school is that it's it offers your child an educated,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: trustworthy adult whom they can ask these questions, who is
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: it you? Right exactly? And that is like priceless, right,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: kids asking some really intense questions When I teach sex ed,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: and I'm so delighted, like I'm so delighted to be
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: able to provide them with that information. It's not always
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: like really explicit or like you know, like really adultified.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Like sometimes like you know, it's an older kid being
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: like wait a minute, like when ipe is there seem minute,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: you know, like and like that's something that you really
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: want them to have the answer to, and you you
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: want someone to be able to give them that information
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: like that's that's gold. So I think, you know, there's
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: definitely a lot of work that parents can do. A
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: lot of schools don't offer sex that or don't push
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: it in in sort of elementary grades because they're worried
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: about parents' responses. And when they hear from parents like no,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: this is something we actively want, like yes, we'll make
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: us uncomfortable, but we really do want it. Administrators are
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: much more likely too, if they're able to to sort
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: of put that in the curriculum.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: All right, that's a practical it's a practical takeaway. So
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: the other thing that that I will just mention before
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: we conclude is that there are a bunch of books.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: So these Corey's books are really good, and we'll put
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: a couple others in various links here, And you know,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I think for me, I think probably for a lot
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: of other people, having books as a way into this
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: can be very helpful, either reading them together or for
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: some ages of kids having them read themselves but with
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: you so you can sort of talk about it. Just
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: can open up some of those conversations in a way that,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: like I may be uncomfortable to start the conversation without
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: some aid.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have to reinvent the wheel here. Like
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: there are like fabulous professionals doing this work and you
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: can just scam off them exactly.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: This is amazing. Is there anything else that you think
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: that I missed about sex?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I think like practice makes not perfect. Ope, I don't
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: mean that about sex, like having sex. I mean.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: That's the message from this interview, practicing perfect.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: The more you do it, the less awkward it will be.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Talking about on that, on that. That's a great that
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: we're going to end on that awesome. Thank you, Miranda,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me, Thanks for listening.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, subscribe to parent Data
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: in your favorite podcast app and rate and review the show.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: In Apple podcasts, you can subscribe to the Whole newsletter
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: for free at www dot parentdata dot org. Talk to
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: you soon.