Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Karen Graves | Sales Tips for Introverts (and Extroverts)

Transcript

Karen Graves | Sales Tips for Introverts (and Extroverts) · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:01
  Intro: You're listening to the solo to CEO podcast with Davina Fredrick.
• 0:07
  Davina: Hello, and welcome to the solo to CEO podcast where we provide a mix of powerful, thought provoking, and practical information to assist you in your transformation from solo to CEO of a high impact, high revenue generating business. I'm your host, Devina Frederick, and I'm here this morning with Karen Graves, founder and CEO of Karen Graves Coaching. Welcome, Karen.
• 0:33
  Karen: Hello, Devina. Thank you so much for having me. So, yes, I love I love sales, and I love to help women sell, especially women business owners sell, you know, as far as being comfortable and confident and and ready and able to have the conversations that convert. So I've been, you know, doing this for I've been in sales for over twenty years, but I've been in my coaching business for over a decade now. And it's know, with that if you're not selling, you don't have a business.
• 1:09
  So I make it my point to make sure that women can sell.
• 1:13
  Davina: So tell me, how you wind up What was your background before you became a coach, before you started Karen Graves Coaching and Consulting? Were you in corporate? Doing sales? Or what was your background?
• 1:31
  Karen: Yeah, so I was in corporate. I started in pharmaceutical sales. And I worked with the company that has the big blue pill for men. Okay. And so I was a sales rep, you know, going to doctor's offices, and then I got promoted through the ranks.
• 1:48
  And I ended up in the sales training and development department. And so I started with training new hires. And then I ultimately ended up where I was a manager and I was training the training managers to train the sales reps. So I guess you could say, once I started in sales, never stopped.
• 2:10
  Davina: So that is really tremendous training because pharmaceutical sales, that is like the pinnacle for training, right? For sales training.
• 2:20
  Karen: For sales training. It really is. They really pour a lot into your sales prowess and, making sure that you're, you know, competent and confident. And then even with the company that I was with, there's the American Society of Training and Development. Like, they were voted number one twice across all industries.
• 2:41
  So it's really seen as, like, one of the pinnacles of selling overall just even for being with that company.
• 2:51
  Davina: So I know that when you left corporate that you were actually kind of excited about it because it gave you a chance to pursue a treatment you had at the time, which was to be an entrepreneur and start your own coaching company teaching other people sales. Right?
• 3:16
  Karen: Mhmm. Yep.
• 3:17
  Davina: I was Tell me about that. Yeah. Tell me about that.
• 3:22
  Karen: And it's so weird to say because I was actually downsized. You know? Was during the time, like,
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: we were talking corporate Yeah. I was like, yeah. This is awesome.
• 3:32
  Karen: Or most people understandably would be like, you know, I don't wanna be the one. I was, like, raising my hand. So, you know, please pick me. Choose me. And a lot of that came from just having this belief of, you know, I was meant to do something different and bigger and also this drive and desire to help people kind of like my way of helping people and having some autonomy in the process too.
• 4:03
  So it's that whole dream of freedom and flexibility and starting your own thing and saving the world.
• 4:10
  Davina: That was back in 2007, right?
• 4:14
  Karen: Yeah, in 2007, the 2007. And interestingly enough, that was when the bubble burst. And we went through a recession. So may not have been on my side, but I was still enthusiastic. I was still believing that was the path that I was supposed to take at the time.
• 4:38
  So I'm grateful that I did. I would never have changed anything for it.
• 4:43
  Davina: And so did it not go quite the way the typical entrepreneur story, did it not go back the way that you anticipated it would go?
• 4:52
  Karen: Yeah. I don't know where that typical belief is that you know, it gets new sailing, you know, we've really got to do something about changing that story. It's like you can expect it to be a little bit choppy. I know it didn't. I actually failed fast, you know, like hard and fast.
• 5:11
  It's and it's so funny because I think there is this bubble of, like, when you're in the naive space like, I was so naive in the beginning, and I just had you know, like, it was all just grit and motivation and enthusiasm and positivity. Right? I think when I was in that bubble, nothing could stop me. When I
• 5:31
  Davina: Oh, yeah.
• 5:31
  Karen: Like, when that bubble burst, it was like and I started thinking too much. Then things started to go south. So and it was because I think I started thinking it it was actually easier at that time because I just didn't know what what I didn't know. So I was just talking to people and letting them know I was entrepreneur. And then when I started, like, looking at maybe I'm not doing things the right way, or is there a different way it's supposed to be done?
• 6:00
  That's when I started doubting and second guessing and actually sabotaging myself. Did did
• 6:07
  Davina: that come from encounters with other people, like you were digging into it, going to conferences and talking to other coaches and doing How did that happen?
• 6:24
  Karen: It was definitely Other
• 6:25
  Davina: people were telling you about reality?
• 6:27
  Karen: Yes. I think it was a little bit of everything.
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: It was like a little bit
• 6:30
  Karen: of the comparison game. It was a little bit of being intimidated by other people being in certain spaces that I'm like, oh, I should be doing what they're doing. Right? Or even at the temp because when I first started, my business concept was really more first, it was sales, but then it was, like, really kind of helping people launch their dreams, you know, like, started. And I started second guessing even the direction.
• 7:02
  I was like, don't know if that's the way because people, you know, you'd say, hi. You know, what do you do? Well, I help women who want to launch their businesses, launch their business. And then I get, like, people kind of cocking their head to the side, like, what? You know?
• 7:14
  And then it's, like, just started getting nervous and doubtful. So it really was having all those conversations and getting the reactions and and really measuring myself against others that just started spiraling me away from doing what I was already doing well, and I didn't even realize it.
• 7:33
  Davina: So how did you overcome that?
• 7:38
  Karen: I think it it became doing some of that the work of, like, just getting my mindset together and stop comparing and starting owning, like, what I do really well. And then also being bold. Sometimes just making myself do things like, you know, take a do a talk, meet people that you don't know, go to these networking events. So trying to trying to kinda get myself out of that space of of allowing myself to be scared or intimidated or resigned or any of that those things that just weren't helping me. Now it wasn't smooth.
• 8:18
  It wasn't a smooth transition. It definitely took a lot of time for me to even get there. But when I started noticing, like, okay. This is ridiculous. Like, you didn't start this to be unsuccessful.
• 8:32
  You started this to be successful, so you can't just sit here and not not do stuff. You've gotta go do it. That's what started me moving towards and just keeping taking steps.
• 8:45
  Davina: And so now you've been doing this for a long time and you actually coach other women. Is this a common story? I already know the answer to this, but I
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: want you to answer.
• 8:59
  Davina: Yeah. Is this a common story? Do you hear this a lot from other from the women that you have coached through the years?
• 9:07
  Karen: I feel like this is the most common story. The dip the difference may be you know, I think my my confidence in the beginning was there because I have a sales background, because I'm used to meeting strangers, because I'm used to, you know, going out and networking and and being out and about. I think that was not as typical for most people because a lot of times they just don't know what to do, you know, how to do it. But that was a part of the work that I had done prior, and I find a lot of women may not be in that space where that was their prior experience. So for for anybody who's kinda transitioning from a space of I've never really had to network or I never really I don't like talking to strangers or that may not be their experience, but the comparison and the hesitations and the doubts and the, know, maybe I don't know, maybe this is not a great idea, what is I thinking, all of that is very, very typical.
• 10:12
  Davina: Right, right. So really wanna dig into this. So now you've raised so many questions. I can't wait to get into all of them. Okay, so let's break it down.
• 10:23
  First one, I wanna talk about this sort of introversion, extroversion thing that you just kind of raised. Because clearly, when you're in sales, whatever you may be in your heart of hearts, if you read Susan Cain's Quiet, Susan Cain, I think is her name, right? Quiet, the author of Quiet, she talks about introversion versus extroversion. She says introverts basically get their energy from their alone time and extroverts get their energy from other people. That's kind of how she defines that.
• 10:59
  But you being in sales, you obviously have, whether you're at heart an introvert or an extrovert, you obviously have this ability to be very extroverted and go out. You're very comfortable going out, being around people and working a room and all that kind of stuff. A lot of my clients I work with a lot of attorneys, and certainly the litigators are often very comfortable being out and doing a lot of public speaking and talking with people and that kind of thing. But a lot of the more people who are drawn to transactional work tend to be extroverted. And whether we're looking at attorneys or non attorneys or whatever, when you're dealing with introverted sort of people, they think of things involved in sales and networking and public speaking and going out and marketing themselves marketing and sales being two different things, which we'll get into in a minute as just their worst nightmare.
• 12:06
  So what kinds of things can you tell us that will help us if we don't really love to go out and mix amongst the masses and talk about our business, that will help us.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: Just on
• 12:28
  Davina: just on a marketing networking level.
• 12:31
  Karen: Yeah. I find pick pick what works for you. You know? At the end of the day, you ultimately have to connect to humans. You know?
• 12:39
  Like, there's there's just no way around it. You got you gotta work with other people. And so if you're not the type like, what most people don't didn't realize about me is that as extroverted as I seem, I have really large introversion tendencies. So I'm an ambivert. I'm like right in the middle.
• 12:58
  Where sometimes I'm like, yes, all people all the time. And then sometimes I'm like, please, I don't want to see another person for years. You know? And what that translates into is when I network, I hate chitchat. I like I can't it makes my skin crawl.
• 13:14
  Like, let's not talk about, you know, oh, it's oh, look at they have nice cocktails here today. It's just like I can't. You know, I love deep conversations. I love getting to know people. So networking is not my favorite thing to do.
• 13:30
  But what I do do when I do go network is I find maybe a person that I feel like I can spend some time and just, like, spend time getting to know them. So I make it almost like a one on one experience inside of a large group. And so that's one way to do it if you're not necessarily, like, the extrovert or even comfortable, like, finding that person that you feel like just strike up a conversation. How are you? And if you feel that it's like, okay.
• 13:57
  It's really not going anywhere, move on to somebody else. Or set up coffee dates and just do it one on one that way or video you know, virtual coffee dates. So they don't have to know, great do you think about technologies? You don't have to do it you don't have to be in the same room. Reach out to people via email just like, you know, pick a person that you already know and start to get to know them better, deepen those conversations, deeper the relationships that you already have.
• 14:25
  So you don't have to do it the way that you feel like an extrovert might do it. Now there's people who love the public speak. If that's your thing, public speak. There are people who love to write. If you're a writer, write.
• 14:38
  But you're also you know, when it's writing and things that are you know, especially when people try to do social media, you still got to do those things that are going to ensure that what you're putting out is being is actually being reached. You know? But if people are are reading it. And so that means that you're gonna have to take those extra steps to make sure that you're going to get eyes on your stuff. And that can be a little bit more that can be a little bit more involved, but still choose a medium and a method and approach that really works for your style and way of being.
• 15:12
  Because the more authentic you can be in it, the more natural you are and the more that people gravitate towards your natural way rather than your put on way.
• 15:21
  Davina: Right. Right. I love that. I love those those tips. So let's I what I really wanna pick your brain about is sales because salespeople just get, turned inside out when you talk about sales.
• 15:37
  They feel unclean if they think that they have to sell something. And what a lot of people equate sales with is asking for money. So And I want to talk about this in terms of So there's sales like when you work for do When pharmaceutical sales, you're working for a company and you're selling somebody else's product. That's one kind of sales. But when you are an entrepreneur and you have a service based business, a small business, and you're selling services and you are also the provider of the services, that really brings up a whole different challenge because now what you're selling is you're selling yourself.
• 16:27
  You're selling you and the services you provide. If, you you haven't gotten to the point where you have a platform and you're selling your programs that are detached from you a little bit, like video program, you're actually selling you. You're the ones gonna show up and provide the service. So whether that's a coach, consultant, a lawyer, an accountant, whatever, I I think that's what makes it particularly challenging for entrepreneurs, particularly, I know particularly a lot of times for women entrepreneurs that I've talked with who may not feel particularly confident in themselves. They may be confident in their ability to do the work, but they're not confident in tooting their own horn, so to speak.
• 17:16
  You know, they've been taught that it's, unseemly to brag about themselves or toot their own horn. So now they have to not only toot their own horn, they have to they have to put a price on it, a valuable
• 17:29
  Karen: price on it.
• 17:30
  Davina: Right? And say Yep. Not only am I really good at what I do, but I'm so good that I charge x amount of money for it. And if you don't pay it, you can get out of my office. Right?
• 17:40
  So that that's what makes sales so challenging for personal services for small businesses. Right? So let's break all that down and see if we can help some folks and give them some pointers on how to approach first of all, maybe let's address the mindset because that's really if you can conquer the mindset piece, right, that's a big chunk of it. Don't you think?
• 18:12
  Karen: It is a huge, huge chunk of it. And you know what? And honestly, it's exactly was my experience when I started my business. You know, people think, oh, you were in sales, so it must have been easy. Actually, just what you said, selling for somebody else and selling something that you're not attached to is so much easier than selling yourself.
• 18:32
  When I made that transition, I had no idea what would come up for me mentally around selling my own services. I truly And and it's everything that you said. You know, it's like it it kind of brought up the what will people think of me when I ask for that money? Am I really able to produce what I say I can produce? What if I suck?
• 18:57
  What if I fail? What if you know, it's like all of these
• 19:01
  Davina: Right.
• 19:02
  Karen: Things came up, and it's you know and it was just shocking to me because I just could not understand why I was so challenged and even my husband was like what is wrong with you? Like, he's like, I have never seen you like this. Like, what is wrong with you? I can't believe you.
• 19:23
  Davina: Like, who are you and what have you done with Karen?
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: Yes. Like, where is my wife?
• 19:28
  Karen: You know, who's like, one minute, I
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: was just like, I'm going to go out there. And I'm gonna rock it. I'm gonna be this successful business owner and the next thing I
• 19:34
  Karen: was like you know in
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: a corner like sucking myself like I can't do this.
• 19:42
  Karen: And so it was just a really strange space to be in. And what I find is that the mindset piece is really shifting and sorting through or, you know, all of the lies that you're telling yourself. Because it really is just a bunch of crap. You know? It it's so it's all crap.
• 20:01
  The am I, you know, am I capable? Well, of course, you're capable. Look at everything you've ever achieved in your life to be where you are now. You wouldn't even be embarking on entrepreneurship if there wasn't a part of you that would truly believe that you're capable of being successful. So it's taking inventory of the things that are true.
• 20:20
  Like, what like, what is true about you? And so, you know, it's like, how long did you go like, for you, you're a lawyer. Right? You know, how long were you in school studying law? Yeah.
• 20:33
  Yeah. How long before you even went to law school did you know that you're gonna be a lawyer? How many hours did you invest? Know you were eating, sleeping, breathing the legal system and you know everything about it when other people were like shopping at the mall and not thinking anything about law, You know?
• 20:51
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah, Terry. Yeah.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: Know, it's like all of
• 20:56
  Karen: those things that you did to become accomplished in that area. Just the skills that you had to do, the education, the training, all of that just demonstrate who you are in character, who you are as far as intelligence, who you are as far as commitment. And so really taking ownership of all of the qualities and all of the characteristics and all of the traits and all of the experience and all the skills and bringing those to the table. So when people get confused about why they should charge so much or who they really are and how capable they are, sit down, take inventory. Write it all out.
• 21:37
  I do this Take inventory.
• 21:39
  Davina: Number one, take inventory. I love that. Write it all down.
• 21:41
  Karen: Yeah. Write it all down. I do this exercise with my clients all the time, especially when we get to the point of like, okay, how much are we gonna price your program? You know, it's like, oh. And I'm like, okay, how many hours did you did you study whatever their industry is?
• 21:57
  Right? How how often? How many times a day do you think about this subject? You know, it's like if you have to be a master in ten thousand hours, if it takes ten thousand hours to become a master, I can guarantee you that ten hours, ten thousand hours, and then some is covered for everyone I've ever talked to as far as entrepreneurship. And so not losing sight of your area of expertise.
• 22:23
  Own the heck out of that baby.
• 22:25
  Davina: Right.
• 22:25
  Karen: Right. You know? So it's like take inventory, and then the second piece is own it. Own it. Don't let anybody take it away from you.
• 22:33
  Okay? So I find that that's the thing. And then it's like, also, if you think about the inventory and then you attach the money and the time to it on what you poured into it, Because this is the other thing. What were you know, I've heard this. I I think I could probably butcher this a little bit, but I wanna say it was Van Gogh.
• 22:54
  And this woman comes up, she's like, I want you to paint me a portrait of myself. And so he, you know, he sits down. He does his portrait, hands her the portrait, and he's like, okay. She's like, how much will that be? And he's like $10,000 and she's like $10,000 It only took you an hour.
• 23:08
  And he's like, no, ma'am. It took me a lifetime.
• 23:11
  Davina: Right.
• 23:12
  Karen: We have to think about how much time, energy, investments that we've already made into our development to be able to give somebody else our masterpiece within minutes. And so when we think about the pricing, we can't shortcut ourselves and, you know, and take away from ourselves because we're really just saying to ourselves, oh, I'm not worthy. You know? And we're and it's like throwing away all that we did to to be who we are and to do what we can. You know?
• 23:43
  And so and it's a unique skill set. You know? It's you unto yourself. You're bringing all of that in yourself into that, and that's valuable. And it's especially valuable to somebody because you're solving a burning problem for them.
• 23:58
  They have a problem that they need an answer on, and they want it fast. And so you're taking all of that stuff that you've done over the years and years and years, and you're giving to them fast. You know, think of how many people as when you were a lawyer, think how many people came in and they're just like, oh my gosh. After an hour consultation, they're like, you just saved my life. Yeah, I did.
• 24:19
  Davina: Well, and it is much cheaper to hire it is much cheaper to hire you than it is for them to go and go and do all the things that you did to get the knowledge that you have. Right? So they can go and they can go to all those years of school that you had, and they can go through all those years of working your way up the ladder, you know, those years of sales and working your way up the ladder in the corporate and go through all those sales training and all that. And then they'll have the knowledge you had, but that's gonna cost them thousands and thousands of dollars, or they can just hire you for a few thousand dollars and get the problem solved in a much shorter path. Right?
• 24:58
  So there is Yep.
• 24:59
  Karen: Learn it and do it. Exactly. And have the results a lot faster. It's like, you don't wanna go back to my twenty year timeline. Exactly.
• 25:09
  Davina: Can Trust me.
• 25:10
  Karen: You don't. Yeah. So when we think about that, it's like, you know, giving self credit and really being honest with yourself and saying, you know, like, anytime a doubt thought comes up, just being like, is that really true? And there might be certain things that are true. Okay?
• 25:30
  So it might mean that there might be a skill set or something that does need to be developed, and that's okay. But don't get caught down the rabbit hole if that means it's gonna you know, I gotta change everything because of this one little skill set. And there's certain skill sets that aren't even gonna be worth it, you know, that you that you don't want to go down the rabbit hole of picking up. You know, I find that people often get sidetracked and, you know, they get off the path of where they're supposed to be. And trust me, done that, been there, can write a book about it, don't want to.
• 26:01
  You know, all these bright shiny objects is like, okay. Because I wanna resist, I've gotta do this one thing.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 26:08
  Karen: Like or I've gotta I've gotta stop procrastinating or I've gotta you know? Like, I'm scared to do something.
• 26:13
  Davina: Well, here's the one thing here's the one thing I found is that you can actually you can actually still work and make money and have a viable business while you're learning something new. You can learn skills and still make a living and pay your bills and fund your dreams while you're learning new skills that will add value to what you're doing. So it's not an either way safer
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: way here.
• 26:46
  Davina: You know? It's not like you have to stop everything to learn something. Right?
• 26:49
  Karen: Yes. Yes. And I think that's, you know, something that again, it's like noticing when there might be that unintentional procrastination or deviation or, you know, just Dispatch. Unintentional sabotage. Yeah.
• 27:07
  Yeah. The distractions are huge, and they're always gonna be there and available. And so it it but it's really calling yourself out on your crap.
• 27:18
  Davina: And so speaking of calling yourself out on your crap, let's talk about let's talk about avoidance and avoiding having And when I say sales conversations for all of the people who are listening who have consultations or strategy sessions, I'm talking to you as well. Those are sales conversations. Yeah. If you're in business to make money Yeah. If you're in business to make money, which is if you own a business, then you're making money.
• 27:56
  Otherwise, it's a hobby or a charity. You're in a business, the goal of business is to make money, is to make a profit. And so those are sales conversations. So that's what I'm talking about when I say sales conversations. So calling you out, calling people out on crap, calling myself out on crap, everybody else who has, at some point in their life and career, had a business, and avoided sales conversations because they are scary.
• 28:25
  I have found that the best way to get better at sales conversations is that sort of learning, applying, learning, applying, learning, applying approach where you learn techniques for certain ways to phrase things, certain questions, types of questions to ask, and things like that. But then have as many sales conversations as you can. So as many consultations as you can, as many strategy sessions as you can. Because the more you talk with people, the more you questions you ask people, the more you the better you're gonna get at this. And for me, an approach that has worked has always been focusing on helping on really asking questions and really digging deep with somebody and saying, what is the problem that you're having that you're trying to solve?
• 29:27
  Right? Putting the focus on the other person. So talk to me about that. What is the approach to a good sales conversation that Yeah. We should be taking?
• 29:41
  Karen: So you triggered my mind with so many things. I'm getting so
• 29:43
  Davina: excited about I know. That's what I'm here for,
• 29:45
  Karen: to trigger trigger you. So first and foremost, it's really so it's kinda like calling out in the BS. Right? It's like, really, what do you think you're doing in a sales conversation? Kinda go back to that to that mindset piece and, like, the reframing of what you're doing needs to happen.
• 30:04
  Right? If you're selling something, it's to to help somebody solve a problem. You're providing a service that solves a problem. Do people think that sales is typically taking something away from somebody? And you're actually if you're doing it right, you're giving something to somebody.
• 30:20
  You're giving them the opportunity and the ability to get out of whatever rut they're in. So when you reframe it just that. Right? Like, start with that. Then when it comes to having the sales conversation, it's gonna so this is where the marketing and the selling kinda overlap.
• 30:37
  It's so much easier to have conversations when you're talking to the right person in the first place. So everything that you said, absolutely, you need to have a lot of them. Right? You just need to get that's how you build your muscle. You can't sit there and build your muscle in your head.
• 30:52
  You're just like, theoretically, I should be great at sales because I've been studying in my head for a
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: lot of time. Right? It's not until you have
• 30:59
  Karen: the real world application that's going to prove that you're strengthening your muscle. And actually, you learn so much when you make mistakes. It's actually a beautiful learning ground when you don't do as well as you think you do. Of course, everybody wants to go in and have as many conversations and have people say yes all the time. And that's beautiful when it happens that way.
• 31:24
  However, it takes a while till you get there because, like you're saying, there is a formula that needs to happen inside of that. It starts with just even how you're showing up. It starts with how you're even conducting the conversation. There's a framing of the conversation in the questions that you're asking, the order in which you're asking those questions, how you're leading the conversation. Like, you should be in command of the conversation.
• 31:50
  Lots of times, people get off track, and they get stuck in the story of the person. And they get lost in the conversation, and they don't know how to navigate back into, okay, what we're trying to do is find out if you have a problem that I can fix and if you're the right person and I'm the right person and that we should work together. Because at the end of this, we're gonna be entering into a relationship that's gonna be kinda like we're married for a little while. And it might be for a little while, might be for a long while, so we should like each other along the way as well. You know, and all of those factors into the conversation and where you're really doing this consultation to find out if we jive and find out if I can help you, and then to find out if you're at the space and if the timing is right, and also if your commitment level is there, and then also if you have the means to invest.
• 32:46
  Of that is what that conversation is. But really what starts it are the two things that you're ready for it. So your mindset is clear. You're clear about what your intentions are. You're clear about who you're being in it.
• 33:00
  And that the other piece is you're clear about who you're having the conversation with.
• 33:05
  Davina: Well, and theoretically at least, people are not, they wouldn't be sitting there talking with you if they didn't have a problem that needed to be solved, if they didn't think that you were at least somebody that, you know, they have some idea that you are somebody who can help them solve this problem potentially, right? So they have some desire to be there or they wouldn't be there to engage in a conversation with you. We start
• 33:32
  Karen: from this know that that would be the case. Yep. Right? Yep. But you also want a smart target, right?
• 33:39
  You wanna be about you want that to be 80% sure for yourself that that person is the right person for you too. You know? Because there's been times in my career, maybe in yours, where you've taken on clients that you're like, oh my gosh, this is like this was the biggest mistake. I should not have worked with this person. It was a headache, or we just were in a mismatch, or maybe I was in over my head.
• 34:05
  You know? So you want to be clear that because I think what will happen too for women especially, is we get into yes mode. Can you
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: do this? Yep. Can you
• 34:16
  Karen: do that? Yep. Yep. Yep. You know?
• 34:18
  And if we're saying yes, yes, yes. And then we end up with a client, and we're like, I said yes, and I did I should have said no. I didn't really you know, I should have been a little bit more discerning, or I should have been a little bit more honest, or I should have been a little bit more, you know, reserved in my my enthusiasm. And so sometimes you can find yourself you know, all money is not good money, and some, you know, some money is too expensive to take. So if you want to yeah, so if you want to make sure that you have ideal clients, clients that you really love to work with, clients that are going to make your work just like joyful, then being sure that you're doing the things that actually pre qualify them in place so that you're having conversations with people who are pretty much they're 80% sure that you're the right person too.
• 35:07
  And they're also timing, they're ready to commit. They're not just there kicking tires and feeling things out and like, was just curious. They're really at that space of, oh, no, I want this problem solved. And I'm just making sure that you're the person who can because I think you can, and let's just have a conversation because today's the day I want to get going.
• 35:26
  Davina: I see it's kind of interesting because when it comes to attorneys, I hope in in the coaching and consulting world, you you would have more people who might say, yes. You know, I can help you. I can help you grow your business. And particularly, when you're new to coaching and you kind of think every business is the same and you you can help, you know, and you might get in over your head a little bit on that kind of thing. I know what you're talking about there.
• 35:55
  But like I find with in the lawyer world, a lot of women lawyers might say no, no, no to cases because they feel they lack confidence to try it, to do it, because they're afraid of getting in over their head because of the fear of not being able to do it well and then getting grieved or something like or getting sued or that kind of thing. So there's a lack of confidence when actually they probably not probably, they're they're skilled, they're competent attorneys, and they could do it, but it may be hard. It may be hard. So it's the opposite. Because the same thing at play, but the opposite response.
• 36:44
  Right? It all comes down to the confidence factor. Right?
• 36:49
  Karen: Yep. And that's and, again, that's that getting honest. You know? That's that that's the is it true? You know?
• 36:56
  Like, are you you might be turning away a client that you absolutely can handle. And so that's the well, what's getting in the way of you believing that? You know, like,
• 37:08
  Davina: that's the resources available to us. We forget the resources available. Just because it's hard doesn't mean we can't ax that we don't have access to people, and resources and research and all kinds of things that will help us get the job done. But anyway, I went down a rabbit trail away from sales.
• 37:35
  Karen: Yeah. But it's all good because it's still it's still about the confidence. Right? You know, sales are so much it's so much easier to make sales and to conduct sales conversations when you are confident. Because in that realm, right, you know, so say you're an attorney, you keep getting these people who are coming and you're saying no, no, no, no, no, well then your business is not growing in the direction that you really want it to go.
• 38:02
  And then that's the story, you know, like, kinda solidifies us. You're not really that good as an of an attorney as you thought. You can't handle big cases or you can't handle it. You know? And so that's gonna slowly get to
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: the point where it's like,
• 38:14
  Karen: well, I'm not gonna take on, you know, any big cases, and I'll always be this little attorney that waits for referrals, you know, from people who already know exactly what I do. So that can really damage a business growth.
• 38:28
  Davina: Right. Right. I agree. I agree. And I've and I've seen it, you know, happen with
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: Mhmm.
• 38:34
  Davina: With attorneys who, you know, who have that kind of fear around it. And it and and it starts in the sales conversation. That's where it It's that fear of, I don't have the answers in this moment. Because a sales conversation for an attorney can feel like, I have to have the answers in this moment. But the reality of it, you don't have to have the answers in a moment.
• 39:00
  A sales conversation, a consultation is not about having the answers in the moment. We It's need to see at this point if you need to tell me what your problem is, and we need to see at this moment if we're a good fit to work together. I'll explain to you what the process is and generally how it works, and then I will, once you retain me, I will dig in on this thing and come up with a solution to solve the problem. But I get paid to solve problems. So the sales conversation is not where we do the work.
• 39:37
  It's just like being a consultant. The sales conversation is not where we do the work. And and we see that with coaches as well, coaches and consultants. People wanna engage with us in a a conversation. And oftentimes, new coaches, especially new coaches and consultants, life coaches, business coaches, whatever kind of coach you are, fitness coaches, we want to jump into solving the problem when people first talk to us.
• 40:05
  And that's not the time or place. That's the sales conversation.
• 40:11
  Karen: Oh my gosh. It's so yes. Even when I hear people introduce themselves and they start to talk they talk about their process. And truthfully, people don't really care about your process. They don't care how how you do things.
• 40:24
  You know? I would use the example of, like, when look. Today, we had a dishwasher put in. Right? When the guy was finished with the dishwasher, I I wasn't standing there watching him put in the dishwasher.
• 40:35
  I didn't really care what the approach was. I just wanted a dishwasher that worked. Does it wash my dishes?
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: You know? It was you know,
• 40:44
  Karen: I wasn't sitting there like, so now do you take that screw and you screw it right there? And then are you going to I'm like,
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: I could really care less. Is it done? Does it work?
• 40:54
  Karen: You know? So there might
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: be some people who do like to go through the process. But for the
• 40:57
  Karen: most part, when you're speaking to people, and especially when it comes to getting their problem solved, they want to know that they're going to have that result. What is the result? What's gonna be the outcome of our work? And if it's what I think it it is that I need and that I want, then we can definitely retain. Yeah.
• 41:16
  I can retain your services. And however you get it done is how you get it done, as long as I have the results.
• 41:23
  Davina: I like to, once we get to a point where they've made a decision, I like to talk about then next steps. But that's once we've got to a point where the decision has been made, and then I go, Okay, here's what happens next. Right? Then I like there to be clarity for people And about so let's talk about taking control who's in charge of a sales conversation? Because I think that's one of the things too.
• 41:51
  When a prospect shows up and one of the of the issues that I know that I've seen come up over and over again with clients is they often let the prospect, the person, and that can be whether it's an attorney, a coach, a consultant, any other type of business owner, the person shows up and they sit down and they just let them get into story. They just let them tell their story. And then they, you know, so the service provider just loses all control of the conversation. They're not taking control of that conversation from the beginning. So can you talk about why talk about that?
• 42:38
  Is that important? I mean, is it just me Or
• 42:40
  Karen: It's is hugely no, no, no. You are absolutely you're hitting the nail on the head with that. It's hugely important for service providers to recognize that they are the one who's driving the bus of the conversation, And that they are the one who's setting expectation. They're the ones who are directing every piece of that conversation. And they're the ones who the reason that that person's there is because they saw you as an expert.
• 43:09
  And so they're relying on your expertise. And you lose and water down your expertise when they take control of the conversation. Now what's interesting is a lot of times you will have a person who is the person that you're providing the service for, and they're interested in your services, they know that they're going to get to that money conversation. And it can be very subconscious for people. They might not even be recognizing they're trying to distract away from having that money conversation.
• 43:40
  You know, money's emotional, so people get all wild and squirrelly around it. And so it's kind of like waylaying to that point of it's like, it's gonna
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: cost me something. It's gonna cost me something.
• 43:50
  Karen: I don't really wanna talk about it. Let me take control. Let me tell you what I'm gonna do. Let me tell you how I'm gonna to control this. I find that it's almost like an unconscious, subconscious, psychological battle that's going on between two people.
• 44:04
  But if you, as the service provider, are really confident and clear and you have your wits about you, then it calms and eases not only the process, but it also calms and eases the other person. And so this is about as woo as you're going to hear me get, is I believe that there's a lot of energetic exchange that's going on there too. And people feed off of your energy. And if your energy is out of bounds, their energy is gonna be out of bounds. So you've gotta be the one who's, like, calming them because they're getting ready to make a decision, and they're really fearful in that decision making process.
• 44:39
  And it's not really about the money. It's about at that point, whenever somebody's in a space where they're hiring a service provider, it's almost like the mission of I don't know enough. I don't, you know, like I and I need somebody else to take control. So they're handing over their trust. They're handing over and they feel very vulnerable in that.
• 45:00
  Right. Now they might not come off as that. They might not come off as they can come off as straight confident, but they really are in a vulnerable space. And so they're almost doing anything to protect their vulnerability. And so you if you're conscious of at the end of the day, most people are coming to you, there's some type of fear.
• 45:17
  And your job is to ease their fear and to show them with your confidence and your knowledge and your expertise that you have their best interests at heart and that you can help them, then that's going to help them make a decision that is going to benefit them in the long run.
• 45:33
  Davina: Right. Right. I love that. I love that. And and if you have I find that, having a systematic sort of process for your sales conversations, I don't know that people often think about that I can I can be systematic in my sales conversation?
• 45:53
  In other words, you can have a you can conduct your sales conversations in a systematic way so that you can pretty much replicate a sales conversation the same way time after time after time again. So there's a formula to it. Not that it's robotic, not that you're going to say, hello, Ms. Graves. I'm Ms.
• 46:20
  Frederick. It's nice to It's not robotic. But you'll have the same pieces and parts to the conversation, and they will flow in a very similar manner. So I might ask you certain kinds of questions, and they're going to be to elicit certain types of information, and they're going to be very similar to the questions I'm gonna ask the next client, the next client, the next client, the next client. Right?
• 46:52
  So we know that every time that you come in, going to you're gonna be seated in my conference room, and let's say if you're meeting in person or if we're doing a I meet with my clients over virtually over Zoom. So I know that this is how my clients are gonna show up. They're gonna get a Zoom link. They're gonna show up on the call, and we're gonna jump right in. After introducing ourselves, I'm gonna say, you know, so what what brought you on the call today?
• 47:19
  Right? That's gonna be my first question. What brought you on the call today? Tell me about your business and what's going on. Right?
• 47:24
  So that may be how I start every call. And then this is gonna be my next question, and this is gonna be my next. And and then I'm always gonna get to this question and ask this question. And then this is how I always conclude. Right?
• 47:38
  So Yep. So there's a formula that I follow pretty trickly. And then there are certain things that I'm going to be listening for that are red flags to me that are going to indicate to me whether or not this client is a good fit for me or whether or not I automatically say, okay, well, when I hear this, I know that I need to probe further because I probably won't be able to help this person because this isn't my area of expertise or whatever. Right?
• 48:09
  Karen: Yeah.
• 48:10
  Davina: You have tips around that?
• 48:12
  Karen: Oh, absolutely. Like, so the main thing in all of this, like, when you have a formula, you have a process, you have a proven approach, right, and it's working for you, it gets you out of your head so that you can be there present, mentally present with that person across the table from you, whether that table is virtual or real. Right? Because if you're in your head, you're not listening. If you're in your head, you're not there are gonna be things that you need to be intuitive about, and there's gonna be things that you need to be responsive to in the moment.
• 48:47
  And if you're not able to do that because you're so in your head like, what's my next question? Where is she going with that? I don't know what to do. Then chances are that you're going to miss the opportunity to enroll a person into your program or your services. So So by and far, I mean, like with my clients, I give them a script.
• 49:06
  I also have virtual sales team that I hire for I manage for other companies. And everybody uses a script. And I used to be so anti script. I used to be the I was the main bell ringer,
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: no, scripts are horrible. Let me make you sound like robots.
• 49:22
  Karen: And it's truly the reason that we use it is because there's a psychology behind it, because there is a banner in which the questions will give you the answers that you need and that you can really problem solve for them in that conversation. And it's really more of a roadmap and a guide. And so it's more of a framework than it is like, and then say it like this, and then say it like that. It's just giving you you're here. Now you're here in the conversation.
• 49:53
  Now you're here. And it's also that guide for them so that it's a logical, intelligent conversation that doesn't get distracted or diverted. It allows everybody to be on the same page. And if done right, it also gives that person tremendous breaks. So when they finish that conversation, they have been given a service.
• 50:19
  They feel so much more clear. They feel like even if they say no and they walk away, they still feel that they received something of value. So I'm a huge proponent of do something that works inside your business and that really helps you stay present and really helps you stay in that driver's seat of that conversation, but also gives them a lot of valuable service in the meantime at the same time. I love that.
• 50:45
  Davina: And I love that you call it a framework or a guide, and it does apply. I can hear all my attorneys now going, Oh, that's not It won't work because every case that I have is unique or whatever. But what we're talking about is not a script, like you said, that it's written out. You say this, and then they say this, and then you say this, and they say this. We're talking about a framework, a process that you take them through.
• 51:13
  You wanna make sure before they leave that you collect certain information and that you're sure that you share certain information and that you lead them through the conversation in a certain order. So it's very much like preparing for direct examination. Or when you're preparing for trial, take witnesses through questions in a certain order. So it's very much that same kind of way. You're taking your clients through the process in a certain order.
• 51:47
  Right? That's for all my lawyers out there, Karen, they're
• 51:53
  Karen: like, oh, I don't like to
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: hear that, but it's so different from what they do all the time.
• 51:57
  Karen: Yeah. It's like whatever you're you know, it's like anytime somebody comes to you, you're gathering information to make an intelligent observation and to provide the proper information.
• 52:07
  Davina: Right.
• 52:08
  Karen: And so it's the same thing. It's just in a in a certain framework that acts that works really well.
• 52:15
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have, I think we've covered a lot of ground. I'm I mean, you know, you and I, you probably talk about sales for hours because there's so much. So much, and it's such an interesting topic.
• 52:28
  There was a time that I absolutely I mean, I was that person. I've spent years in marketing, I was not I was very good at relationships with people, but I didn't know how to close the deal. I didn't know how to close how to have a sales conversation. And my life really changed when somebody taught me how to actually have a my life and my business taught me how. Somebody taught me how to have a sales conversation and how to actually sit down and talk about money and ask people for money and talk about it in terms of my discuss it in a way that was comfortable for me and just matter of factly, just like this is what it is.
• 53:18
  And then you shut your mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. And you wanna talk about that for just a minute?
• 53:25
  Like, when you say when you say, this is what I charge, what how do you get comfortable actually speaking about money? And what should you I mean, like, literally, are do you have some thoughts on that?
• 53:41
  Karen: Oh, yes. I mean, first and foremost, it definitely goes back to being sure that what you're saying you're in alignment with. Right? And so, you know, if you're putting out dollar amounts that you're just, like, totally uncomfortable with, it's always gonna come off that way. Mhmm.
• 53:57
  So you know? But then also and and that it goes either way. If it's too low, you'll be uncomfortable. If it's too high, you'll be uncomfortable. So finding that space where it might be
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: just a little uncomfortable, but
• 54:08
  Karen: it you also know it's right. You know? Being makes making sure that you're confident confident with that. And then what you said was key, you know, silence. Because once you say it, it's not up to you to get in their wallet, to get in their mind, to work through the mental acrobats that they're definitely going to go through.
• 54:27
  You know? I would say out of every conversation, you know, for every 10 sales, might have, like, one or two who are just like, great. Let me just yeah. Here you know? And if you get if you get 10 out of 10 that's telling you, yes, your dollar amount, you might need to raise your prices
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: at
• 54:44
  Karen: that point. But most times, you're gonna have people who are gonna have some hesitations around the money. And so you sitting back and allowing them to process without interjecting, without, you know, like, trying to trying to convince them is gonna be a lot more powerful than you trying to get in their head and their wallet and you know? Because that actually takes away from what they need to get through. They actually need to figure it out.
• 55:16
  And if they really want to, they'll figure it out. And you might need to, of course, give them some some framework around that and help them with that and make sure that you're asking, you know, the questions that that break down any limiting beliefs or anything that they might have. But for the most part, it really is their job, and you're holding that space with them.
• 55:38
  Davina: And so that brings us to objections
• 55:42
  Karen: around money.
• 55:43
  Davina: Objection. Those are always And so one of the things that has been very interesting to me in doing the work that I do, not only for me, but with my clients, is the how the human tendency just to immediately say no. Immediately say no. You can have a wonderful conversation with somebody, and this is what they need. This is what they need.
• 56:17
  This is what I want, what I want. And then immediately, is, I have to think about it. I have to think about
• 56:23
  Karen: it.
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: I have
• 56:24
  Karen: to think about it.
• 56:25
  Davina: No, no, which is no. You remember when your mother would say that?
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: Maybe. Yep. Oh, my God. And I have
• 56:35
  Karen: a mother, and I still do that. Like, no, Okay, well, come back. Okay. Yeah, exactly.
• 56:40
  Davina: And and you're like, okay, well, let's talk about what you need to think about. There's a lot that my favorite objection is always the spousal objection.
• 56:56
  Karen: My favorite too.
• 56:58
  Davina: Spousal objection exception. The one where they've got to go talk to the spouse. And it's really interesting to me because this is a big difference between men and women. Because men just say, well, you know, they just go, which credit card am I putting it on? And women always gotta go talk to their husband.
• 57:18
  And I say, well, is your husband a partner in the business? No, he's not. But we talk we always talk about everything about money, you know? And it's fascinating to me because men don't do that, in my experience.
• 57:32
  Karen: No. No. Most times they don't. Most times. Every once in a while, I'll come across men who do, but it's It's rare.
• 57:42
  It's usually more women do it. So
• 57:48
  Davina: for me, I always question, is this a a question of I'm using my spouse because I don't want to make a decision? Or do I have fear around money? Do I have fear of making do I have fear, you know, of putting my big burrow panties on? Right?
• 58:21
  Karen: Mhmm. Yep. Making a commitment that I've gotta stick to, that I've gotta stand behind. Yep.
• 58:26
  Davina: And so I'm gonna so I'm gonna say, I I have to, you know, hide behind. I'm gonna use yeah. Because we use we use husbands as buffers. It's you know?
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. I mean That's what they're there And I honestly will I have to be honest.
• 58:41
  Karen: There are times now I was like, oh, let me
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: go talk to my husband. You know, like, I don't I wanna be on
• 58:47
  Karen: the phone or I don't wanna
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: you know? Which is not
• 58:50
  Karen: always the right thing or the nice thing, but it's true. Like, it's an easy go to. And I think it's because it's so common and so easy to do that we do. Because once upon a time, you know, in our society, that was the only way we could. Right?
• 59:08
  You know? And so it's been drilled into us from, you know, generations that you had to go and ask your husband to make a purchasing decision. Well, now it's 2019, and that's no longer true, but it's still a part of our DNA. So I think the most powerful thing that we can do, especially as women business providers and service providers, is that we can empower women to make their own decision and by blasting that objection. Like to me, that is my absolute most favorite objection to get.
• 59:44
  Because I will tell you at the end of that conversation, that woman is like, she comes out transformed. She's like, oh my gosh, I just made a powerful decision and I made it for me. It had nothing to do with anybody else. If we can shift women into the ownership in that decision, we are actually freeing women from generations of this belief that they have to stand behind a man and that somebody else is responsible for their decisions.
• 1:00:10
  Davina: Well, usually what I hear from women when they say that they always Well, I'm asking permission. We just have an agreement that we discuss anything over a certain amount. I mean, he would do the same for me.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: Mhmm. That's nice. I can appreciate that.
• 1:00:31
  Karen: You know, it's like, I'm married. I can appreciate that. And I absolutely I applaud people having that level of agreement in their relationship. I think that that is phenomenal, and that we should be on the same page in our relationship. At the same time, that does not usurp the decision.
• 1:00:51
  That still doesn't take you away from the decision. If you're really because I always say things like this, you know, like, it's like, well, let me ask you this. How long you've been married? I've been married for fifteen years. Okay.
• 1:01:03
  So you've been married for fifteen years. Have you bought things outside of that budget before that you really wanted? Yeah. Did you always ask permission? Well, sometimes I do.
• 1:01:11
  Sometimes I don't. Tell me about a time that you didn't. Well, I really like, you know, this car, and so I ended up buying the car, and I told him about it later. Okay. So when you real and and what is what was his response?
• 1:01:22
  Oh, he didn't really care. Okay. So at this point in your relationship, you really do know that your husband, as long as you are behind it and committed to it, that he's pretty much going to be behind and committed to it too. Right? Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:01:35
  So then in this conversation, are you going and approaching it like, I'm really confident, committed about this, and this is exactly what I'm gonna do. And so I'm kind of informing you, and this is how we're gonna make it work in our household. Or are you going and saying, well, I really you know, I'm questioning whether or not I should do this, and I'm really trying to see if you know, like, where you stand on it. Because the latter is really you're still asking permission.
• 1:01:59
  Davina: Perfect, perfect.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm like, let's
• 1:02:05
  Karen: call it what it is. And I've actually been talking to a woman one time and we had this level of conversation and she did come to the awareness that like, and that was her whole, like, we always have these joint decisions and then and when we like really stripped it away, she's like, oh my gosh, I have been hiding behind that man for the forever.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: He's like, you know what?
• 1:02:29
  Karen: I really have been putting the responsibility on him. And she's like, you know what? And that's really unfair. She's like, I've been making my decisions his decisions, and it's really not his decision. And she was like, wait, I think I have
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: a credit card in the mailbox. Let me go get it. And then she's like, I don't need
• 1:02:46
  Karen: to ask him anything. It would freeze her, you know? And so so there's a difference with because even when we're having those consulting conversations with our spouse, we should still be coming to that conversation of, at the end of this, I'm still clear that this is what I wanna do. I might need your help in determining, you know, like just making sure that household wise, it's not gonna cause any disruption in our household. But for the most part, I'm just informing you that this is a decision that I've made.
• 1:03:18
  And, basically, here's my game plan around it, and so just so you're clear. And then, you know, sometimes you don't even have to have that conversation till after the decision is made.
• 1:03:27
  Davina: Right. And it's it's it's so for me, I look at it as if it's for a business and your spouse is not a partner in the business, then that's how I look at it. Is it a business decision and they're not a partner in the business, then if you have a partner in the business and you need to consult that, then we need to maybe involve all the decision makers in the conversation.
• 1:03:55
  Karen: Yep. But if they're not in your business
• 1:03:57
  Davina: Because if they're running the business, they're going to be making business decisions. Are you going to run every business decision by them then? Are you going to ask them about the people that you're hiring in the business? And maybe they are a business advisor. I don't know.
• 1:04:13
  I mean, it depends on my husband and I are both entrepreneurs, and we're both involved as business partners in different business ventures together. So he's a business advisor to me, so I value his opinion in that way as a business advisor. I can understand those kinds of relationships. So it all depends on the nature of the relationship, but that is That's a big objection. So many, so many wonderful things we could talk about about sales.
• 1:04:46
  So interesting. I can keep you off hours, but we probably need to wrap up. And any final thoughts that you wanna share with us about we that you wanna leave us with today with regard to sales and
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:05:03
  Davina: How to have a great sales conversation. And
• 1:05:06
  Karen: Yeah. Like, my my biggest takeaway for for you know, is to remind remind you ladies that you are doing something of value to somebody and that what you're providing is of value and should be recognized as such. It all starts with you recognizing it first. And when when you are sold on yourself, then it's a lot easier to sell to other people. And I can guarantee you that if you can get confident and comfortable in the sales process, then and you're and you're selling to the right people, your work will be joyful.
• 1:05:45
  You will really enjoy like, you will fall you can fall in love with sales. So, you know, I believe you could turn a sales hoeve into a salesaholic. You know, that's my that's always been my my thing. It's like, you can fall in love with sales. And when you do it, you start to see that it really is a beautiful gifting that you're giving to somebody.
• 1:06:05
  Davina: I love that. That's fantastic. Karen, tell us how we can find out more information about you. Where can we find you on the interwebs?
• 1:06:13
  Karen: Oh, I'm all over the interwebs. Well, not all over as many people are, but I am on karengravescoaching.com is my main site. And then you can find me on LinkedIn and Facebook.
• 1:06:24
  Davina: Oh wonderful, terrific. Thanks so much. I have really, really enjoyed this as I always do every time we talk and I hope maybe you'll be back one day and we can continue our conversation and go deeper, deeper, deeper.
• 1:06:37
  Karen: I would absolutely love it. Thank you so much. I had a blast.
• 1:06:42
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