Latest / UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show / Are We Making Seafaring Harder Than It Needs to Be? With Steven Jones
Transcript
- Steven Jones: technology is a little bit like love. It should happen with you, not to you, and it's kind of, you know, it's constantly just being thrown and hurled and as I say, you know, there's something, get on with it. This is going to do this. Did we need to do this? What is this that we are doing type thing? Nick Chubb: Hello everyone and welcome to Undocked. Hello, Ra Harris. Raal: Hello there, Nick Chubb, and a very warm welcome to our dear friend Stephen Jones, who's joining us today. Steven Jones: Hello, good to see you. Raal: Yeah, welcome Stephen. Welcome. so Nick Chubb: Likewise. Thanks thank thanks for joining us, Stephen. it dawned on me when we were setting this up, I've known you about ten years, I think. I have no idea what you actually do. So how how would you describe yourself? Steven Jones: I hope people never find out. Well, I mean, the first thing to say is it's an honor to be on with Maritimes' Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell. So you've done amazing things in the podcast. So that's that's first thing to say. But, well, what do I do? Well, lots of different things, mainly focused on seafarers. So a lot of seafarer welfare issues. So founder of Seafarers Happiness Index. And I've just been working with the Merch Navy Welfare Board on setting up the seafarer pledge as well in the UK, which we're going to. be rolling out this year to really start to make sure that people recognise, respect, value and celebrate seafarers more. So lots of those different touch points. Raal: Yeah, and and I have to say, unlike Nick, I did know what you do because we very briefly sort of overlapped working together when when videotail was bought by KVH and you were doing a lot of work with KVH then and you were a an Steven Jones: That's Yeah. Raal: expert who would come on and and and give our teams, those that hadn't been to sea, an introduction to to to shipping and our paths have crossed many times. And I should say, last time I saw you in the flesh. You were picking up an award, the industry champion award at Crew Connect in Manila, which was a a lovely moment. That was right. Yeah. Steven Jones: was. Very proud moments, yeah, all good, all good. you know, awards are in the past, it's all about what we do in the future. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: Yeah. And you mentioned you mentioned Seafarer players, you mentioned Seafaros Happiness Index, which we'll we're definitely gonna get into those today. and when we when we talk about Seafaros Happiness Index, I it's become a bit of a a staple thing. It's it's one of the things that's quoted probably the most from the stage whenever there's a whenever there's a a topic relating to it. But a lot of people listening to this may be unaware of what the C Ferrars Happiness Index is. So do you wanna just give us the The the elevator pitch for the Seafarers Happiness Index. Steven Jones: Yeah, sure. And it actually relates back to that time with KVH Video Tell. There was a social network for seafarers started called Crew2 and I was working with our very good friend Sue Henney and we were pondering the issues of how we both get seafarers to engage with us more, but do something actually with that useful and tangible. And so it was really thinking about what questions could we ask and how do we start to weave that kind of useful narrative. for industry that it's not just moaning, it's not just pointing out the obvious, it's something that we can actually galvanise change around. So we kicked a few ideas and anyone who's been to college or whatever, Maslov's hierarchy of needs and what it is to be human and what we need and want, et cetera. So we thought about how does that apply to seafarers? What do they want and need to get the best of their life at sea and also when they're ashore? So really that's how we came up with a set of standard questions that we constantly roll out and then over time it was taken under the wing of the mission to seafarers which I've been working with for about eight or so years on the happiness index now particularly with Ben Bailey and his great team there and as you say it's been really successful at getting that voice out there and I often sit up and have to look alive when people quote it back and I'm sat there in the audience thinking I'm going to get some difficult questions about some number that was months ago. in the main it's, I hope it's provided that mechanism that just allows us to glimpse behind the reality at sea and what it means for seafarers. Nick Chubb: how how long's it run actually, sorry? Steven Jones: It's over 10 years now, Raal: And quarterly Nick Chubb: And Raal: as well for for everyone Steven Jones: Yeah, so we basically it's running permanently and then I just go in and cut the data on a particular quarter and then report back and see what the kind of message is from the fleet. Raal: By 2027, EU ETS will cover 100% of reported emissions. Fuel EU Maritime will be in full force, and CII corrective action plans will be a regular part of the conversation. The operators best positioned for that moment aren't necessarily the ones buying new systems right now, they're the ones using 2026 to connect what they already have. Great Integration, the new report from GTT Marine and Thetius is a practical blueprint for getting decision ready before the deadlines stack up. Download it now. Nick Chubb: So ten years, so you're you're talking if you're in your in the eleventh year, you're talking sort of twenty fifteen through to now. So you've seen the happiness index it's taken you through COVID. it's obviously this latest report's taken us through the crisis in the Middle East. w Steven Jones: Yep. Nick Chubb: have you seen are the kind of major things that impact how that score moves, kinda up up or down? Steven Jones: Yeah, it's been really interesting and I guess obviously the COVID kind of dropping away of everyone's satisfaction was Nick Chubb: Okay. Steven Jones: obviously mirrored very much at sea. So that provided a really good sense check in reality of, yeah, mean it does work. People do tell us how they feel. So really it's been about peaks and troughs and it tends to run. quite kind of anticyclical to itself where you've had a period of positivity that tends to pretty much be mirrored by one of life doesn't actually get that much better or different. So it kind of falls away again. So that's been very much the pattern that we've seen. COVID took a big hit. Then there was hopes and optimisms within that. things are opening up. We'll be fine. We'll get the reliefs we need, et cetera. And then it doesn't change that much. It falls away. And I think then really the start of this year, the Operation Epic Fury in the Straits of Hormuz, the US attacks on Iran, that happened roughly halfway through the quarter. So I kind of stopped the data and thought, right, let's have a look at what has actually happened. And it was quite dramatic to drop away as soon as that happened. And it wasn't so much seafarers that were actually out there or even stuck. It was just like, what does this mean? You know, what is it? What's going to happen now? What are the knock on? effects does 20,000 seafarers stuck somewhere mean that I'm not going to get my relief in three months time or whatever those very human responses to that were so so we're constantly kind of just slightly ahead of the narrative in the main with the actual seafarers experiences. Raal: I I was involved in a discussion that I'll come back to you with a a little bit more and I I posted something about a meeting of coming together of some industry bodies to to talk through welfare issue and someone asked me, you know, w what evidence is there that sort of things are getting better? And I said, Well actually, that's a really difficult question to to to answer because there's a the you know, you've got to look at like what sort of time period you're looking at and it the industry is a kind of very mixed thing. So I think I did quote back to him and said, you know, obviously there's the Seafarers Happiness Index, which gives us a a bit of a measure. But let's get into maybe for those that are unaware of it, what are the what are the metrics that you're using that are repeated over over each of those? Well, you said it's a continually running survey, right? But what what are the aspects of it so that we people can understand, you know, what we're talking about here from a data perspective. Steven Jones: So from a very straightforward perspective, it's asking the standard set of questions and they are a kind of benchmark, generally, how happy do you feel? And then we move into the more specifics of connectivity, how connected do you feel to family, to friends, to the rest of the Nick Chubb: Steven. Steven Jones: world, et cetera? Sure leave, wages, food on board, health, exercise, interactions, workload. and through to welfare as well. So, ten standard questions that just run through constantly. And as well sometimes seafarers interpret them in their own way. If they don't feel that there's no, that there's somewhere to necessarily say what they wanted, then they will just start to talk about what they want to talk about. And I think that's a very powerful ability to do that as well. Raal: One of the things that Nick mentioned there was was talking about like some of these big big events that have been going on and un and and it's almost like there's a there's a continually sort of ratcheting up of pressure on onto seafarers. So we have to obviously acknowledge that as the backdrop. But as you said, it's a big world and seafarers are in lots of different locations at the same time. So I I guess my big question here is that what what What triggered my interest in this quarter particularly was the article that you'd written in Splash. And Nick and I both picked that up as something that we wanted to talk about this week. Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: because I think for me it it was a bit different from the normal kind of report where you're talking about incremental gains and losses across those ten questions you mentioned. It seems like Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: with this article that that that you've written for Splash there. You're seeing something definitively happening in the data that you wanted to express in that article. could you just give us a bit of a paint a picture for us of that article and where y why you think it was significant this quarter? Steven Jones: Yeah, sure. mean, you know, it's always difficult looking at numbers and you can plot a graph as nicely as you want. But sometimes it comes down to the written narrative as well and starting to get that real sense from seafarers of how they feel. and what they're experiencing and what they're actually going through and what's been the trigger for those numbers. So one of the kind of the senses we had, every number basically fell this quarter across those questions and you think like, wow, okay, well, there's something there. But then when you were digging deeper into the actual stories that seafarers were telling us, it was just a sense of like, and another thing and what am I meant to do about this and how do we deal about this? And the two, think, that most kind of captured that were one was about the use of technology on ships and the amount of new systems or tools or whatever was just being kind of sent to a ship basically and that you know there you go crack on well what what am meant to do with that you know and and a sense and and you know quite a few seafarers spoke of a feeling that the the officer sure had been sold some kind of promise that this was going to be amazing and brilliant and then well okay but you're not on the ship to translate that promise into what now i've got to go and unbox plug in or do whatever you've been promised or expect. So I think there was a feeling of that slight disconnect and a sense of frustration through that. And I think particularly on the issue of futility, which is the kind of word I kind of picked up most on was things like maritime security, a sense of. the rules, regulations and demands on seafarers, particularly with the International Ship and Port Facility Security Code, the ISPS code of what they're meant to be doing. but being faced with drones, missiles and mines. They don't come with ID, so you're not gonna be checking them at the gangway. And just a sense of like, what is the point of all this if it doesn't help me with that? And so that was really kind of what triggered that sense of like, we just seem to be missing the point often and in the most simple ways and seafarers were telling us that. Nick Chubb: Have you have you ever come across the the Whitehall studies? Steven Jones: I don't know what I have. Nick Chubb: W worth worth taking a look at because they're there there's this one still going on, the White Whitehall two study. They've they ran them through the kind of twentieth century And continue to run them now. But basically, civil servants are just a massive block of population, and because they tend to be in jobs for a long time, you can study them over a very long period of time. And so these Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: are long, sort of longitudinal studies that have gone on looking at the health of civil servants. And one of the most interesting findings Steven Jones: Bye. Nick Chubb: from them so far is that the link between control over your time and your job and then happiness and and and health Steven Jones: Right. Nick Chubb: is is really really strong. So those civil servants who have a high Steven Jones: Right. Nick Chubb: level of control over how they do their work and how they spend their time often have much lower rates of stress-related diseases and much lower rates of of things like high blood pressure and those that are usually at the kind of lower ranks who are who are Steven Jones: Right. Nick Chubb: if have much less control over their time, have Steven Jones: Alright. Nick Chubb: much higher incidences of of things like heart disease and and it kind of it strikes me as very similar that the near enough Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: going to sea is like it's it's like an exercise in in giving up control to a a stranger who's sat in an office somewhere or to seniors Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: on board. but but when world events overtake Raal: Right. Nick Chubb: the life of a of a seafarer like they've done over the last what, four or five months. That kind of feeling of, what are we gonna do? I I I Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: t I can totally Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: get it because you there's there's literally nothing as an individual or even as a as a ship's company that you really can do. You've got it's totally outside of of your control. Steven Jones: Yeah, very much so. I mean, I've always felt that in some ways seafarers are on a macro level, extremely optimistic and on a micro level, extremely pessimistic. And the minute that that gets skewed and looks the other way, then that's where the dangers kind of click in. Because you've got to be optimistic Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: to go out to sea because it's, know, it's a fundamentally dangerous place. It's very wet and far from everywhere. Nick Chubb: Mm-hmm. Steven Jones: then, you know, the little bits of pessimism that you kind of get through the day by thinking, I don't like that. he's rubbish and she's terrible and I don't like the taste of that. It gets you through. Whereas, when those two flick round, you've really got trouble. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: 'Cause w worth mentioning for everyone. I mean, you're a seafarer yourself, of course, and you you spend Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: a lot of time not just running the survey and looking at that, but actually spending with with seafarers yourself and and as part of that community, on in enduring with that community. how do you feel like it's it's sort of changed in the time since you were at sea yourself? Steven Jones: I think it's, I was recently, even this year out in Manila doing quite a few workshops with a spread of different generations of Filipino seafarers and there was a definite sense from the younger seafarers that the industry is lucky to have them and if it doesn't reflect what they expect from it, there are many other options for them and they won't hesitate to choose them. Really switched on clever young people who had lots of different options. It just so happened that they'd chosen Seafaring and while it suited them and these in the main seem to be working for quite good companies that we'd all know. So at the moment it seemed like it was going in their favour and their direction, but you got a definite sense that the minute that turned and it wasn't what they wanted or expected, then why would I bother type things. So I think there's that ability to see more options and be a bit more open to making other choices, perhaps more than other generations before. Nick Chubb: Yeah, I g I guess it's worth saying that the nature of work for all of us has has changed. But particularly if you're in if you're in the Philippines or if you're in India, you know, it it previously was a really, really solid option to go to sea. Whereas now actually Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: going to sea competes with working in a customer success role for Microsoft. You know, and th and those are Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: the kind of you know, if you're a smart young person, you could do either. and so While a career at sea I think has some incredible advantages, I think there's actually still a lot that it's there's there's a lot now that it's competing with that it just never did before. Steven Jones: Yeah, Raal: Okay. Steven Jones: I think one of the things that comes across as well was that sense of not only the financial reward, but the personal as well, you know, go and see the world type thing and have those experiences and come back with Nike trainers that no one else has got type thing. But that doesn't really apply. You know, the talk of. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: you know, so little access to shore leave or even perhaps wanting shore leave because you're tired and you can't be bothered taking it because it will take four hours to get out the gate and then another two to get to wherever. So there was a definite sense of an erosion of so many of the kind of the rich experiences that maybe seafarers have had in the past that just aren't being delivered. So again, it becomes like, well, you know, maybe there are other options. And I think that has to be a real kind of shot across the bow. of the industry. Raal: I I remember to trying to avoid these shaggy dog stories, but it does give a bit of colour. Do you remember I don't know if you remember a guy called Peter Wilde who ran the video production department and video tele, maybe just before the the merger, but he he'd been a an engineer and when he'd been, you know, when he when they were loading cargo, I think it was somewhere down in the South East Asia, you know, like could go on a trek for for two weeks and come back and then you know, like it's completely different world from the containerization Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: of cargo now and the quick turnarounds in import and things like that. I mean Shorelie was one of the things that came up in the survey is particularly bad. And that's been bad for a while. and Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: you know, and it does undermine that ability. I one of the things I heard which which concerned me quite a lot was around the inspections that go on now. And the the master Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: so someone was entitled to go ashore, but the master was like, I need you in case you know I've got this inspection coming and I might need to ask some questions. And therefore Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: Is that is that sort of also you know, is is it more complicated than than just being able to get off the ship and like you mentioned, just getting in and out of port can be difficult. But is it is it becoming constricted in lots of other ways? Steven Jones: Yeah, and again, it's one of these things about the kind of myth of minimum safe manner of being that is enough people to deal with the things that you need to deal with. the experience seems to be shown us that it just simply isn't. And one of the discussions that we were having with various groups of seafarers was not so much about shore leave, but about kind of formalizing downtime when alongside or at anchor. How can you do that? Because I know myself and If you were spotted on board while you were alongside, likelihood was you were going to get given something to do unless you kind of vanished. So it's kind of, how do we protect that? You're spotted walking down the corridor with your cup of tea and you're like, any chance you could show these at? Raal: Yeah, yeah. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: And I think we're just not doing that well enough. it's not easy to get off the ship, but it's certainly not easy to kind of rest and recuperate even if you have to stay on. So I think there's massive kind of reconsideration and reframing of so many of these arguments that needs to be done to make it tolerable. Raal: coming back to the report itself and and also the article, coming back to the article, that that comment that you made about the sort of technology thing, Nick and I have have covered this on the show a couple of times. In fact, we we we actually talked about a company, MFP shipping recently who who'd had sort of taken a different approach to technology, actually letting the seafarers lead that rollout. It seems like that's a this is a discussion that's really sort of gathering gathering pace now around and I I guess Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: it's a few different dimensions to it. There's a sort of that tech stress element, there's the digital literacy Steven Jones: you Raal: kind of element as we start to rely more and more on technology. And then there's just what I would call just like kind of really ill thought out rollouts of technology, which is some of the things that you're Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: you're talking about there. Do you have a sense of what needs to happen to to put this right? Steven Jones: Yeah, I mean it's one of those things that we constantly see and that, you know, technology is a little bit like love. It should happen with you, not to you, and it's kind of, you know, it's constantly just being thrown and hurled and as I say, you know, there's something, get on with it. This is going to do this. Did we need to do this? What is this that we are doing type thing? And I think it's very hard to translate some of the games that seafarers are having communicated to them versus the reality of their life. And constantly still, and it amazes me, is how admin paperwork, the bureaucracy, is still so prevalent that we've come so far in such a relatively short period of time, particularly with connectivity and some of the tools that are on board that should be streamlining and making it easy. But still, C4Rs are constantly saying, then I've got to do a different report for that, and I've got to do the report for that about the report. that I did on that and it just seems to be that we are just not joining the dots up to make life better for the seafarers and until the technology delivers that then it's very hard to see how you do get that enthusiastic buy-in and know dream of it and I think certainly you know partly that tech led from the ship has you know seems useful and valuable and to stack up. Nick Chubb: I I'd I I've been interested in your opinion on the kind of idea that technology for ships in particular just seems to always be additive. As in as in we never take anything away. I've Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: I've always found it I I I remember, you know, as a nineteen, twenty year old cadet finding it strange d doing the GM D S S course and learning really advan really advanced stuff about satellite distress systems and then also learning signal flags and morse. and it and it seems Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: like we all we ever do is just add stuff on top, add stuff on top. No one ever seems to think about how you might take stuff away. I don't know where that needs to sit, whether that's at the IMO level or whether whether it's with individual shipping companies, but it j it just it just seems like a kind of barrage. with no let up. And and and I I can't see it slowing down either because technology is now moving so fast ashore that you Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: know, I I only really see it going one way. Steven Jones: I guess in some ways there's almost a kind of survivalist mentality about actually being out at sea and you never want to be the one that, you know, folds up the last signal flag and puts it in the bin. Then everyone goes, where's the signal flag? So I think there's Nick Chubb: Then then you need it. Yeah. Yeah. Steven Jones: probably a... pessimism or perhaps even a paranoia about that. But yeah, so all that happens as you say, it's just, well here's another thing. Well, we've got 10 things. Well, have an 11th, you know, see where Raal: Well Steven Jones: you get. Raal: There has been there has been some talk about it in the STCW revision, isn't there? There was a sort of underlying Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: principle that when we put stuff in, to your point, Nick, we take stuff out. but there are there is a school of thought where people are kind of you take celestial navigation or whatever, that they feel like, you know, that has to still be in there. That's a that's a kind of core of a mariner. And there's plenty of engineers who who want to know what your spanner works like, even though most of it now is locked behind a panel that you can never actually get to anyway if you wanted to. But then on on top of that though, you had got with with the sort of cyber attacks and things like that, there is a very real possibility that you might have to go back to basics and stuff. So I guess it's a double edged sword, isn't it, really, thinking about Steven Jones: I mean, that is one of the things that came up in, I can't remember, it was the first quarter of this year or maybe the last of last year. But there was this concern, know, there's increased jamming and spoofing and all the rest of the wonderful things happening and a real sense of absolute over-reliance and over-confidence in the systems on board by the younger generation of navigators. And I guess probably with engineers as well, relying on the data that's been provided. And all of a sudden that kind of real gen... generational sense of disconnect between the two on board, between the gnarly older ones that know that things can fall over versus those that assume that they never would. And I am quite surprised it has type thing of now what do we do? And I think again, how you kind keep the skills alive, maybe a kind skills champion on board that not as reliant on the tech to do the old things and we talk about them and still have the pride in them versus these are the new things that do things brilliantly until they don't. Raal: But does a there must be a tipping point though that where the profession itself changes and what you're what you're needing and the skills base you're needing. have we have we kind of crossed that now? Are we are we actually looking for a fundamental fundamentally different profile of CFRO than we were, say, twenty years ago? Steven Jones: think there's points where I think definitely yes and then there's other points when you remember that the ships are doing fundamentally the exact same thing in a lot of the same places. you know, the movement of the goods from there to there hasn't really changed. And I think then so there's some of the older traditional ways of thinking that still stack up and remain. So just as you think now is the time for the new generation. And then particularly when you see things the likes of COVID or the likes of these geopolitical issues hit in, it is the kind of the old more old-fashioned sense of resilience that does kick in, that does provide that kind of safety blanket that seafarers can keep themselves kind of safe and sane and know cope with what's going on. So I think it's it's very difficult, it's such a balancing act. Raal: think you mentioned the tech side of things and then you you also talked about something that's probably a bit harder to grasp the idea of futility which which struck a a a kind of a a a really sad note I I I think. Could you could you kind of get into that a little bit and explain I know you you gave it a little bit in the introduction, but it's it's obviously got Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: a few different dimensions to it, which which can be seen in the report itself. So just give us a little bit more of a of a view on that. Steven Jones: think what comes across is almost that kind of the old who, what, why, when type view. from a seafarer perspective, what am I expected to do? Why am I doing it? How am I doing it? Who am I doing it for, et cetera? And when enough of those answers don't seem to be for them or don't seem to be quite clear and defined enough as a positive outcome, then that's where this kind of sense of like, You know, wow, okay, I'll get on with that, but really, what's the point? And I think that has kind of come across more. And I think when you tie that into the constant sense that there's not enough positives on board, so maybe where there aren't enough people, or there's not enough downtime, or there's not enough... positives around the ship to be having some enjoyment or whatever, then you do then fall into this very dangerous kind of futility trap. And of course, going back to those young, know, seafarers that don't have to do this, then there's only so many trips like that that they will take before they go, do you know what? I'm done. And I think that is the real danger of that futility trap. Nick Chubb: there is a level of futility for those ashore as well. As in you know, thinking about crewing managers, technical managers, the superintendents, you know, they're working with limited budgets. you know, if it's a third party manager, they've got to get approval from the owner for anything they want to do. and and so I I can actually kind of feel a sense that that that that feeling doesn't just exist on board the ship. So w what what would you advise to someone working ashore at a shipping company who's responsible for the happiness of crew that they actually do within the kind of confines of the commercial reality that they're that they're working in? Steven Jones: Yeah, I mean, it's an excellent point. I think so we have just started a shore based happiness index. That's just kind of started collecting data a couple of months ago to really start to capture this insights. And particularly one of the areas that we were interested in was former seafarers, because the assumption obviously constantly being that if I move ashore, my life will be so much better and happier, et cetera. So we will hopefully be able to finally see whether that's true or not, whether the grass is green, et cetera. It is, you're exactly right. It's that constant balancing act. So whether that's commercial, whether that's the kind of the ethical stance within the company, whether that's just the way that they operate. these things need to be factored in and considered. And it is difficult. aren't necessarily those easy answers. And I guess if you're working again in that environment and you're working a show, it's the same questions you have to ask yourself about your own sense of what futility you're willing to take. know, the who, what, why, when, who am I doing it for? Why am I doing it? What's the benefit and should I carry on? you know, I guess the there's always the moves to another company within that as well. So I think as futility builds the better people take options elsewhere and move and then so all you end up with is another truncheon the industry of maybe the lesser lights who maybe are willing to put up with whatever they have to put up with and are faced with and I think that's the concern for all of us. Raal: there's there's a term in the in your in the report which I feel is coming up increasingly, which is compliance theatre. Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: and when you talk about futility, Nick, you mentioned people ashore as well. I think it's something that that that goes on. And I'll give you I mean we we can talk about that in a lot of contexts, but there's one that sticks in my mind from a seafarer's perspective. that I thought was crushing. there was a seafarer who who explained to me that he said you and he he described futility perfectly in the in the recycling that he said I have to make sure that all the recycling goes in the paper in the paper one, the food in the bo you know, that's some i and if they get that wrong, the penalties for that are dramatic. And then he said there's nothing so depressing as when you come into port and they take all your your your bins and and they just dump them all into one thing. Now obviously that's not I'm not saying that happens in every port in the world, but Steven Jones: No. Raal: the idea that you're working to the on the ship to these standards, but Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: no one really cares. You know, you're going through hell to make sure that you don't make a tiny mistake on all this sort stuff, but it's just theatre or whatever. You know, like and there are lots of examples of that I think. We we rely very heavily on these proxies that are sort of s sort of, you know from a compliance perspective. And and I can really see how that could be it could cause a real feeling of disconnect between why you're doing what you're doing and whether it's actually for a good purpose or if it's just for ticking a box. Steven Jones: Yeah, totally. And I think that really is kind of coming across in these things. And as you say, how long do you take that before you think, do you know what? I'll probably do something better with my time or I can choose which bin I want to put my stuff in. I guess there's been a temptation over quite a long time to make... shipping more difficult in some ways than it perhaps has to be and then never really fixing the problems that do exist and I think that's always been a danger and I think one of the things that quite often gets mentioned not so much now because I think I don't know whether the term is quite used as much but the green they're just transition and you'd get some report that had a dotted line going from port A to B and it made it look as if that was the absolute easiest bit you know the bit actually out at see and you think like what you know that's that's the bit where seafaring matters and that's the bit where we do the the actual work of being seafarers but the kind of industry of shore has kind of made it look and feel different. I think that's kind of left a little bit of a bad taste in the mouth. Also quite a lot of feedback from certainly senior engineers where their companies have made all kinds of pronouncements announcements and said these things that they're going to do but really without much if any consultation with the senior practitioners on their actual ships So they feel extremely disconnected to the solution, but only ever part of the problem. And I think that's caused a lot of frustration as well. Nick Chubb: I totally see that. Even from a kind of wider perspective of where shipping seems to sit in the decarbonisation debate, and that shipping is alm almost sort of vilified a little bit, Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: despite being obviously the most efficient transport system in the world. and despite being the only industry that has actually regulated targets for reducing emissions or or getting to net zero. and I think that's partly what causes companies to feel they have to make those kind of pronouncements. because otherwise you Steven Jones: Go ahead, Mary. Nick Chubb: you sort of end up in a you know you yeah, you end up in a situation where it feels like nothing's getting done. But I but I think the whole question around how it comes back to your point on technology, the whole question around how the industry will achieve this has to have seafarers at the center of it. Otherwise, it's it's just never gonna happen. I mean it's even it's even more unrealistic than you know what some of the plans feel like today. Raal: Yeah, a hundred percent Nick. And I you know, those have been you know, I was quite involved in the the just transition stuff and and it did lead me to get having quite a few seafarers get in touch and want to talk about this. And the message was very clear from from from them, you know, exactly as you were saying, Stephen. They were feeling like, you know, these these people were kind of making announcements that that that they and they didn't feel ammonia was safe, you know, and viable and all those Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: kind of things and the and the and And certainly their their concerns had not been addressed and and it certainly felt like they they hadn't been involved enough in the in the discussion. But one of the areas that that you know, the area I was working in there, and it's an area that you and I have talked about many times, and you've got I know you've got very strong opinions on it, is around sort of training, development, competence building. Depressing to see that that is down considerably again there. And and again that sort of part of that futility thing. I mentioned that sort of tick box training Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: exercise, you know. New Fields is a good example of that sort of s where there's bit of a perception of a sticking plaster or we can just kind of, you know we make it safe by training, you know, without really Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: maybe kind of taking that to as far as it needs to go. what's your view on that? 'Cause I know you're very passionate about learning and development. Steven Jones: Yeah, you know, going instantly to the fuels issue, there's lots of feedback from seafarers that working on dual fuel vessels and feeling that, A, their wages haven't gone up to reflect the fact that they're almost having to work on two different kind of systems, etc. But the fact is that they don't feel necessarily valued in that way either. But in the wider issues of kind of competence and compliance, I think, again, there just seems to be that gap of value of where is the value of the effort I've put in, where's the value of the time I've taken and spent. given up maybe time at home, given up in many instances, paying myself to go and do it. You where is that return on my investment for me? And a lot of the time the answer isn't always obvious and where it's not, that again is another source of real frustration into that of like, well, you know, I've just keep getting more and more things placed upon me, more and more demands. I have to be ever moving forward. You know, you can't ever stop. It's like the shark. You've got to keep moving forward all the time and yet where is that end game to it? So I think that's where it kind of really starts to creep in that we're maybe We're never really looking for excellence because competence is always enough and yet It's not greatly rewarding for those that are wanting to push themselves further and do better Raal: Yeah, it's an interesting wasn't it? Because I think everybody now has to be looking at a future where we we're gonna have to be lifelong learners, right? We're we're we're Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: we're getting presented with new things all the time, new skills. But few of us have to kind of fund that. And I I think that's one of the big, big stories that are th that will that will dominate, I think, over the next few years. As we do start to see new fuels, new propulsion, new, you know certification requirements. It's gonna it's gonna be a a a debate that we're gonna have to square the circle. And just to to give you an idea of where I see the tensions are, it requires a huge investment in people. And we have a model which is not set up to to to sort of do that because it's largely contractors, it's largely it's a it's a precarious model for both the employer and the employee, isn't it? So have you have you sort of been involved in any discussions around how we kind of square that circle because the reluctance is from the employer to pay for to to skill someone up so they can then go and work potentially for someone else and and you know you can Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: you can see from all angles it's not satisfactory for anybody as it is, but where where do you s do you see a way out? Steven Jones: I mean, it is, it's that really difficult balancing act, the reality from the individual of my time, my wallet, my business versus getting that investment and then the risk of people leaving. mean, the argument, I guess, has always been that if you make an attractive enough workplace with the rewards and the progression and all those things that go with it, then people won't tend to go. But equally, the reality is that at some point someone has to break that spell. So either the company has to just suck that up and decide that I'm going to invest in my people or the people then just decide, you you almost become the sovereign seafarer. I'm going to have, you know, all my certificates in a bag off I go. And, know, it's got nothing to do with anyone elsewhere. I rock up. And I think there is, you know, some signs of that. You know, we certainly saw that in the likes of the dynamic positioning kind of arena where there was a lot more kind. of sense of agency with the individual seafarer that was DP certified. There may well be that kind of model again as more confidence and different kind of realities opportunities come to the individual seafarer. Raal: I think one of the things that I certainly I I think that for a c a company that does show a seafarer that they will invest in them and help them progress their career has got a much better chance I think of hanging on to that person because Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: it's one of those things that comes up routinely, right? But seafarers are very, very motivated to learn when they look at it in the context of it being a better ship they're on, a better position, better pay ultimately, that that's still borne out by the data, I think, isn't it? Steven Jones: I mean, the absolute kind of translation of the tangibles applies completely and where you have that sense of a seafarer who knows if they do that course, if they can go onto that and grab that, then the rewards and recognition follow, then absolutely, you know, seafarers are hungry to learn, they want to embrace the opportunities and absolutely throw themselves in half heart, you know, fully. It's only half hearted when it's like, well, what, why am I doing it? Why? calling me back from leave? Why am I having to pay for this? And what does that actually mean? And I think that's where the problems really do start to kick in and someone has to break that spell, I guess, at some point. Nick Chubb: interesting that comparison you made to to to the D P market and the point about agency, which part of me sits there and feels maybe that's an antidote to the feeling of a f feeling of loss of control where people take t sort of total responsibility for this stuff. And then part of me also feels that that pushes you further down the route of kind of gigification, if you like, of of seafaring as a career, which which you know potentially but gets quite quite dangerous. and so Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: yeah, I I kind of I I almost feel more conflicted about that now than than I I think I did at the at the beginning of the conversation. Steven Jones: Yeah, that's the difficult one. Nick Chubb: Can I ask about about trip length? 'cause there were some quite interesting stats. I'd be interested to know if they if they kind of sit across the the long term, but about how because not not just kind of working hours on board, but specifically trip trip length impacts happiness Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: or satisfaction. Steven Jones: It seems to be a bit of a, I mean, a kind of averaging across a lot of the reports, we tend to get the kind of sweet spot after the kind of three months in where I guess, you know, abandon hope all ye who enter here, Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: that the first couple of months have kind of passed and you're into that groove. I think that tends to be maybe slightly skewed by the fact that we tend to have a lot of responses from Southeast Asia, so tending to do longer trips anyway, so that kind of three. to six months is the middle bit if you like of what is likely to be maybe a kind of know six to nine month hitch. So really yeah it's almost like I guess getting into the groove and being comfortable with the reality and adjusting because one of the things that was coming out a lot from the younger seafarers was how much it took out of them to emotionally prepare to go away to sea. So that kind of, you know, those of us who've been seen, you know, that feeling of heading to the airport, making sure you got a good goodbye, as it were, to give you that kind of sense of solidity when you'd moved away, et cetera. And so there was lots of talk about that. And I think that probably... plays some kind of element in that a lot of the time maybe the first couple of months of settling down are probably not as, you know, the easy bit of that journey. Nick Chubb: Yeah, and I guess the last three months you've got one eye on on going home and Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: and probably quite a lot of uncertainty around exactly when or where that will be that will be happening. Steven Jones: Yep, yeah definitely so it's a funny one and it often takes me by surprise when I see those it's quite topsy-turvy and runs kind of quite counterintuitive a lot of the time but yeah. Raal: I mean, one of the things Nick Chubb: Interesting. Raal: that occurs to me with that that spot in the voyage, I mean by that time I guess a lot of good relationships have formed, right, amongst people. And that was perhaps one of the more positive things that came that you referenced in your article and that shines out in the report that actually the the network, the bonds between seafarers themselves are are strong. And that's that's the the bit that they they value. Is that is that a Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: fair summary? Steven Jones: Yeah, and it's been almost universally across every single report that we've done that the interactions on board tend to be the strongest performing of all those kind of elements of Seafarer happiness. It's still the crew on board. It's your shipmates. It's those that you get to hang out with and spend some time with absolutely being the most important part of life on board. And again, you know, that's It's something that seafarers feel that they do have some, I guess, sense of control Nick Chubb: Mm-hmm. Steven Jones: over rather than what is done to them. It's still those kind of relationships and friendships on board. And in some ways that's brilliant and long may that continue, but equally we can never take that for granted. And I think it's about making sure the conditions for having friendships, for being able to kind of hang out and have an okay time are still in place. Raal: Yeah, I'm I mean, I think that's the thing I was surprised by in a sense, because a lot of the time we're talking about isolation, we're talking about, you know, people just disappear to their cabins, w massive focus, rightly so, on bullying and harassment and those kind of things. But they paint a picture, don't they, that that this sort of dysfunction is rife between between the the crews. but y from what you're saying that I mean obviously you're not saying those things don't happen, but you're saying those are not typical. Steven Jones: Yeah. Well, think trying to kind of think back of points where it has kind of you tend to have a schism on board where you have those bullying and harassment issues. So in some ways, you know, if it's, you know, XYZ nation of officers who are pretty bad at dealing with XYZ nationality of crew, it tends to almost galvanize those interactions and relationships. So there's almost kind of more emphasis on those that have your back and are your friends and are looking out for you. So weirdly, in some ways, the ships that have those problems, the value of the interactions positive tend to be kind of amplified, whereas then everyone's just bimbling along and closing the camador and no one cares enough to even raise their voice. Just kind of pass into the... a bad shepherd at bad time rather than the life move forward. Nick Chubb: I think onboard dynamics is such an interesting interesting topic and such a it's it's kind of really hard to explain and unless you've unless you've kind of been to see and experienced it. But one person having their crew change, one one role on board, one person you're you're potentially quite close to going home while you're still on board can completely change the dynamics of your trip. You know, it can feel like a completely different ship. and I think it's often just sort of overlooked as a as a as a as a thing that impacts, you know, how how how successful a a crew is gonna be. The the cook being a the most obvious example, that is a high risk moment is when Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: the is when the cook changes over. Steven Jones: Definitely. then, but you know, equally sometimes, you know, we get a lot of increasing feedback on. not so much the quality of the cooks, but of the ingredients. mean, the understanding that you can't make something nice to eat out of bad food. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: feeding rates staying resolutely low. So even a recognition of what even is the cook meant to do when you've got lower quality meat or vegetables that are going off faster than you'd. So there's a definite. appreciation and understanding not just on the professionalism and the skill of the cook but of the importance of investing in the in food that you know we would all ourselves want to eat. Raal: I think those sorts of things, that the food and that, you know, the frustration there is that thou those are something that you can manage, right? You can look to quality supplies, Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: you can look to make sure you've got well trained galley staff and so on. but the broader aspects of of forming the the right the right sort of circumstances in which good relationships will grow and and sort of It seems to me that that is often unmanaged. You know, we kind of rely on it kind of figuring itself out. And we all know what good looks like when we go on board and we see the dynamics. But you can also Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: imagine that that there's vr a lot of variability even within companies and we we leave a lot sort of unmanaged there, if I feel. Steven Jones: I visited a ship down in a port down outside the capital city of this nation, a new port. And it was the same ship and the first time I went it had been quite a long voyage and it had had a lot of bad weather and you could tell how fraught the relationships were, how people were tired, they hadn't had a real chance. even to go outside and, you know, and then the next time I went, they'd come back and it was mainly a lot of the same people and had been summer North Atlantic. They'd had a great run up. They'd had the swimming pool. They'd had the barbecues. They'd had a real chance. So even things like the impact of weather had such a huge Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: impact on the relationships that they've been able to form that the sense of likeness of relationship that, you know, the second time round was you know, astonishing but quite obvious as well when we think, you know, of those impacts. Raal: Mm. Nick Chubb: I g and that goes back to I guess your ear your earlier point about the kind of long term resilience and and you know, even things like weather, you know, we we think of when we're ashore, we think of weather as for the most part something of an inconvenience, you know, if if Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: a storm blows through. When you're on board, bad weather for five, six days can mean no sleep for five, six days. And you know, just think what Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: that would do in your own personal life. if you were i sat in an office day to day and how that would impact Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: your relationships with your colleagues. and I think again it's just th these are the sorts of things that when you're sat in an office you just don't really think about in the same way. Steven Jones: Yeah, For us it's whether you need a coat or not, but for them it's whether you Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: go to sleep, whether you're going to have to work harder on what, whether you're going to be able to eat properly because your food's going all over the place. Every aspect of life suddenly becomes encapsulated in that reality that you're facing and there's nothing you can Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: do about that while potentially feeling sick as a dog to boot. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. w when I was a a a young cadet, becoming captain was seen as the pinnacle of a career at sea, you know, master under God, and you'd imagine that's the ultimate role where you've got control. But I note that captains are the least happy role on board, which surprised me I must admit. Is that an ongoing pattern? Steven Jones: It seems to be, yeah, think there's definitely that. the weight of responsibility and seniority and what that translates to. And I guess as well, if everyone around you is feeling less happy about life, then if you're the one that's, heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that, you're left there to try to pick up these pieces. And either you're the type that doesn't care about it, in which case everyone's probably likely to be miserable anyway, or you are, and then it becomes ever harder and more difficult. Like, what am I meant to do to get everyone feeling Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: feeling okay. So yeah, it tends to be a little bit mirroring that. Raal: L lonely place as well, isn't it? You know, where Nick Chubb: Mm. Steven Jones: Yeah. Raal: you've you've got no nobody to to sort of share that burden with and you can't share your own insecurities and your own issues there. one one thing we we're sort of talking here about the the variability of what leadership looks like and the myth the the the variability of the conditions, the variability It it's it's quite a difficult thing to nail down happiness fundamentally, right? We've got you you've got sort of your metrics there. Steven Jones: This is. Raal: But it but it's it's certainly, you know, tr different people have different ideas of what fulfillment looks like and so on. What's your view on whether we need an industry wide measure or to try to get to an industry wide measure of how ships are from a welfare perspective and how good companies are at at at managing these aspects. Steven Jones: Yeah, I mean that's always been a kind of both a concern and in some circles a criticism of trying to you know it's quite audacious to try to pin down what what people's happiness is. I think you know we've always tried to term it as a kind of barometer of sentiment that you can somehow try to grab something objective from enough subjective that if you get enough sense of where people are headed and what that trajectory is then at least there's some value to that and that's always been where those numbers are. To me the numbers have always been slightly less important than the things we're actually told but the numbers allow people to be consistently interested and have that reporting back or the chance to you know come on to world leading podcasts etc so it kind of gives you that opportunity but it's about really those realities of what the seafarers are telling us and what that is and how interesting that to it and then being able to try to hopefully get the industry to translate that. Those that are doing good things. to look themselves in the mirror and say, you know, do we continue to do those good things? And equally, those who aren't so sure to really dig in deeper. You know, am I providing good quality, you know, cost effective connectivity? What about all my seafarers getting shore leave? Are they eating well? Are they interacting? You know, where are my wages in this whole kind of, you know, benchmarking perspective? So encouraging them to ask questions of themselves prompted by this concept of happiness. As to a standard, it's hard. I know there is a sense, know, obviously we have rules and regulations and we're such a compliance-based lowest common denominator. industry, it is kind of hard that, you know, if you're at that point of compliance, you know, where and how and what do you then do to move yourself forward? And that's in some ways, that's what separates the good from the rest. I've always been slightly wary when people talk of the shipping industry, because to me, it's it's a series of, you know, overlapping Venn diagrams. You've got the good, the average, the poor and the potentially evil within that. And it's where you sit. Within that, the good, you know, in the main always try to be that. They'll always invest and they're always having an eye on what they can do better and they tend to get the results from a satisfaction of their seafarers perspective that goes with it. Nick Chubb: T talking of good average poor, what on earth's wrong with cable layers? Steven Jones: Yeah, well, I think I have a suspicion that Nick Chubb: It's really weird. Steven Jones: they're having to go and do a lot more cable work. And having been a cable man myself, the last thing you ever actually want to do is to be out doing work on cables. So Nick Chubb: It's lay cables. Steven Jones: I mean, you know, it's probably the repairing as well. So there's a lot of focus suddenly on having to be out instead of alongside. Raal: I did spot that cable lining thing. yeah, blindly. Nick Chubb: Yeah, it's not even it's not even close. i in terms of this kind of common standard, you mentioned right at the top about the the the Seafarer pledge. Which I appreciate isn't isn't a sort of universal standard Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: in terms of kind of data, but it is a it is a universal standard in terms of what Steven Jones: Yeah. Nick Chubb: ship owners are committing to do. So could you perhaps just by way of kind of wrapping this whole thing up, could you tell us a bit about the pledge and what it means and and why you've launched it? Steven Jones: Yeah sure, so in essence it started with the Armed Forces Covenant which in the UK is basically a covenant between the King and the citizens of the UK to respect veterans and those serving in the Armed Forces. We were approached as Propeller Club Liverpool, maritime network I'm part of here, and we signed up and it was great and then kind of thinking well it seems a shame that there's no equivalent for seafarers so I approached Merchant Navy Welfare Board with my brilliant idea that we should have such a thing and that seemed to be well received and we've just completed a six month pilot project getting some words together that are short enough, non-threatening and elegant enough to people to sign up to and not have to have lawyers coming through it but in essence it's almost a kind of moral connection between doing things to think about seafaring so it's not even just for shipping companies, it's for everyone, every employer, we're hoping very much that we can start engaging with certainly port cities around the UK to make them start to have a commitment and a sense towards seafarers, how they look after them, how they welcome them, how they consider them. There was a news story this week that unfortunately came out from Avonmouth just outside Bristol in the UK where some seafarers had been attacked and of course, you know, that's incredibly troubling and distressing. and upsetting but equally if we can start to deal with communities around ports and start to make them understand and appreciate seafarers better. Nick Chubb: I think what's really nice about that is that it's not just for the ship for ship owners, it's not just I I think a a lot of the narrative that we see around crew welfare ends up just kinda hitting ship owners over the head. and actually I think although you've got good, bad and ugly, I think there's you know, there's a lot of ship owners who who who try and do good in that field. But actually going out to port cities and actually going out to kinda wider society to try and make the point of you know, what is owed by society to to these one point five million or so people that keep the world moving. I think is a is a is a really nice way to do it. so we we we'll we'll take a look at it. and if if if it's not too scary, Steven Jones: Cool. Nick Chubb: we'll sign up. Where do we where d where should we go and and where should anyone listening go t if they want to either get involved in the Happiness Index or the or the pledge. Steven Jones: Yep, so the Seafarers Happiness Index is seafarershappinessindex.org and there's also the shore based happinessindex.org now as well for all of us working the shore to share how we feel. The Seafarers Pledge is through the Merchant Navy Welfare Board website so that's all the details to read the pledge, to sign up to it and hopefully do great things together. Raal: Yeah, we'll we'll put the links Nick Chubb: Awesome. Raal: we'll put the links up on the w Steven Jones: Brilliant. Raal: with the with this episode when it goes live Yeah. And let's hope the if the pledge has anywhere near the impact that the Seafarers Happiness Index has done in terms of having these good conversations, then then you'd be very, very well placed. It's it's amazing. Ten years is is incredible. So and it was a Steven Jones: I'm only 21. Raal: cu huge achievement. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Steven Jones: Thank you. Nick Chubb: Stephen, thank you so much for doing that. Really appreciate it, particularly at such short notice. Steven Jones: Real pleasure and good to be on and yeah, anything I can help with, just shout at me. Nick Chubb: Well when the when the next set of reports comes out, let's have a look at at seeing whether things have improved. Raal: Yes. Steven Jones: Definitely. Nick Chubb: Awesome. Thanks Steven. Thanks all. Bye. Raal: Thank you, Stephen. Steven Jones: Cheers.