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Wounded Shepherds Identifying with the Wounded Messiah with Raphael Mnkandhla · Ministry Minded

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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  SPEAKER_00: I serve as the senior pastor of Stonyton Baptist Church in Paxinus, Pennsylvania.
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  SPEAKER_00: And on this episode, I'm delighted to have back on the show, Raphael Mkandla.
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  SPEAKER_00: Raphael is a pastor.
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  SPEAKER_00: Pastor of City Church, just about an hour north of me in Williamsport, Pennsylvania.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is part two of a two-part series where Raphael and I are talking about
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: a book called The Clay Pot Conspiracy by Dave Harvey.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: In part one, we went through a couple of the first...
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to continue that theme throughout the course of these chapters
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  SPEAKER_00: and discussions on each one as we talk about what makes
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  SPEAKER_00: for resilient pastoral ministry.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it might surprise you what the answer is.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not always the case that resilient pastoral ministry is seen in feats
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  SPEAKER_00: of strength and bravado.
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  SPEAKER_00: Actually,
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  SPEAKER_00: more often than not,
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  SPEAKER_00: resilient pastoral ministry comes down to a leader being willing to repent,
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  SPEAKER_00: to a leader being willing to see and understand and even embrace his own weakness,
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  SPEAKER_00: and being willing to surround himself with others who are aware of their needs.
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  SPEAKER_00: Weakness, again,
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  SPEAKER_00: is the conspiracy,
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  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
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  SPEAKER_00: the The clay pot conspiracy that Paul refers to when he uses that analogy and
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  SPEAKER_00: that imagery in his letter to the Corinthians.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's that same formula,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
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  SPEAKER_00: resilient ministry made up of weak leaders who are reliant on the grace of It was
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  SPEAKER_00: a delight to talk with Raphael about this book.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't gotten or read the collection,
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  SPEAKER_00: I definitely encourage you to do so.
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  SPEAKER_00: It'll help you,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially if you've read that book at all,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you follow along as we discuss the remaining chapters in this book and have
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  SPEAKER_00: a great time talking about what makes for resilient pastoral ministry and how does
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  SPEAKER_00: that sort of push back against some of the modern notions of what pastors are
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  SPEAKER_00: and what they should be.
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  SPEAKER_00: So sit back, relax,
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  SPEAKER_00: enjoy this episode as Raphael and I talk about the clay pot conspiracy
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  SPEAKER_00: in resilient pastoral ministry.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys,
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  SPEAKER_01: I want to welcome you once again to our time together with my friend Brad
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  SPEAKER_01: where we are looking at just the second installment of the Clayport Conspiracy.
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  SPEAKER_01: Last time we looked at chapters 1 all the way to like the 1 to number 1 all the way
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  SPEAKER_01: to 1 to number 1.
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  SPEAKER_01: Where were we?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think we finished in chapter three
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  SPEAKER_00: talking about the way
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  SPEAKER_00: that repentance stokes resilience in pastoral ministry.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where we ended.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I love that chapter because it was talking about how proactive repentance is
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  SPEAKER_01: a key to everything.
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  SPEAKER_01: So today we just want to do the second installment of that
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  SPEAKER_01: and just maybe cover what Wanda number four all the way to seven.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's going to be a very good just time for us both.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's look at, you know, Brad, let's look at some of these wonders.
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  SPEAKER_01: Let's look at Wanda number four.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I would just would love to look at it four and five.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the things that stood out for you in Wanda number four?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wonder number four, you know, it's entitled Learn Love When the Church Wounds You.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that my first initial reaction reading this chapter was just the honesty
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  SPEAKER_00: and the pastoral honesty that Dave sort of puts into this chapter,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is that it's kind of a blunt fact.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's within pastoral ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're going to face situations that bring about wounding,
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  SPEAKER_00: that bring about heartache.
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  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's not always going to be external wounds.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be coming from external sources like folks outside of your church circles.
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  SPEAKER_00: Actually, sometimes maybe.
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  SPEAKER_00: More often than not,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's going to be from within your own church family,
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  SPEAKER_00: from within your own flock, so to speak.
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  SPEAKER_00: That proverbial saying that as a shepherd, you kind of have to get used to sheep biting you.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's sort of the impression that it kind of leaves you with as he focuses
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  SPEAKER_00: on naming that Naming that crisis of pastoral ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: of being wounded by the church, but also naming the fact that it's worth it anyways.
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  SPEAKER_00: Pastoral ministry is arduous and sometimes it's exhausting and it brings
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  SPEAKER_00: about this fatigue that feels so heavy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's not necessarily unique,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's definitely something that feels so weighty as you're being called
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  SPEAKER_00: to shepherd God's people and to God's word.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yet,
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  SPEAKER_00: despite all of the heaviness,
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  SPEAKER_00: despite all the heartaches that sometimes pastors face, It's still worth it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's still worth the cost.
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  SPEAKER_00: When we're talking about these sorts of things,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially this chapter,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially,
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  SPEAKER_00: I always go back to chapter 11 of 2 Corinthians,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, and Paul is talking to the Corinthians and he's kind of been...
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  SPEAKER_00: Inspired but also incited to start listing his quote-unquote resume for apostolic ministry.
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  SPEAKER_00: And his resume for apostolic ministry is,
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been shipwrecked this many times,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I've been beaten this many times, I've been left for dead this many times.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, he starts listing all of these things that he's been through.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's always fascinating to me that the very end of that list,
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  SPEAKER_00: Paul mentions on top of all of that, the anxiety that I feel
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  SPEAKER_01: for all the churches.
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  SPEAKER_01: All these churches, yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that descriptor of this anxiousness,
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  SPEAKER_00: this weightiness that Paul feels for the people that he's been called by God
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  SPEAKER_00: to shepherd into grace,
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  SPEAKER_00: is again,
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  SPEAKER_00: it speaks to the fact that what you and I feel,
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  SPEAKER_00: Raphael, or what other pastors feel, It's not foreign.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not unique.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not to say that your situation isn't unique in terms of just the variables
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  SPEAKER_00: of your context,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's also to say there's other people who have been
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  SPEAKER_00: through ruts just like other pastors have.
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  SPEAKER_00: Paul was right there, too.
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  SPEAKER_00: He felt all of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we can take heart,
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  SPEAKER_00: even when the churches wound us,
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  SPEAKER_00: to be reminded of the fact that it's worth it all anyways.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, that's good.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I thought this is actually,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and as Dave was working through this book,
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  SPEAKER_01: he's now going like, you know, last chapter was on repentance, on the inside stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then, and it's really just like now diving more.
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  SPEAKER_01: In the most painful territory of pastoral ministry,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I think he quoted Dane Odland on the,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: where basically he says,
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  SPEAKER_01: where Gavin Odland says this, when the enemy hurts you, that's bad.
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  SPEAKER_01: But when the church hurts you, the pain and the disorientation are next level.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I was just thinking about that, of just thinking how combining this and combining to
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  SPEAKER_01: Combining it with the whole way he looks at Andy Crouch's phrase
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  SPEAKER_01: of trustworthy trustee, where he's talking about,
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  SPEAKER_01: But being a kind of leader who bears the institution's pain,
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  SPEAKER_01: brokenness, forgives it, and then serves it anyway.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that the pastor then has to be this unflinching pastor.
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  SPEAKER_01: A person who is going to love the church,
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  SPEAKER_01: to love the church, but become its target, the target of her imperfections.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's just like something about that,
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  SPEAKER_01: like where the moment,
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  SPEAKER_01: The more the free the person becomes with their shepherd,
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  SPEAKER_01: or the more they just like the familiar or being there,
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  SPEAKER_01: the more it's so easy for them to actually also show the,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, you're a sinner, you're a sufferer, you're a saint, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: And so there's just that aspect of where it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: as then,
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  SPEAKER_01: as a shepherd,
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  SPEAKER_01: then you have to try to keep those sinner and saint like in perspective.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like where at the end of the day,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's like, man,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you spend so much time at the back of the tapestry,
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  SPEAKER_01: You will get disoriented because that's where the thorns and the thistles are
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  SPEAKER_01: and stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: So every now and then you've got to make,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's why basically like just like spending more time with Jesus, uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: paying attention to your close attention to yourself,
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  SPEAKER_01: going back to the Lord and making sure watching, making close watch on yourself.
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  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it is going to be very necessary.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: And really just like recognizing that as you preach the gospel,
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  SPEAKER_01: as you continue to build this environment where the gospel is taking root,
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  SPEAKER_01: then like people, we're all part of Adam's family, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: So if we're part of Adam's,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Adam's family, all our sins and all our suffering is going to show up and
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  SPEAKER_01: And as a result of that,
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  SPEAKER_01: some of it is going to come,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's going to be, those bullets are going to be coming towards you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so now we have to be that trustworthy trustee.
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  SPEAKER_01: And really just recognizing also that when Christ is calling you on mission,
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  SPEAKER_01: like this made me think of Jonah, really.
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  SPEAKER_01: That when Christ calls you on mission,
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  SPEAKER_01: he is, he's, He is extending grace through you to the Ninevites.
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  SPEAKER_01: But then those Ninevites had hurt Jonah, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: But he's also extending grace to you, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: To you in a way of like there was an object lesson for Jonah himself and there was
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  SPEAKER_01: an object lesson for the people he was actually preaching to.
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  SPEAKER_01: Repent and he's preaching to them, but also God is very interested in Jonah as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think the hurts that we experience in ministry.
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  SPEAKER_01: Have a way of shaping us.
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  SPEAKER_01: We enter into the fellowship with Christ and to fellowship with Him in His suffering.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then we really depend on Him quite a lot through those things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they shape us.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we start having even more and more of a love for Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we get those...
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we fellowship with Christ better even in those death and resurrection moments, you know.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, definitely.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think also this chapter was healthy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And informative in the sense that when you go through a season
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  SPEAKER_00: where you feel like you are being wounded by the very church that you've been called
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  SPEAKER_00: to pastor and shepherd,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's actually a helpful thing because it actually can shake you out of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Reality that sometimes pastors get in,
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  SPEAKER_00: where they're searching for approval from the people that they're serving,
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  SPEAKER_00: from their peers.
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  SPEAKER_00: Our approval isn't from the people that we're shepherding.
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  SPEAKER_00: Our approval isn't.
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  SPEAKER_00: Is it from them giving us, you know, pats on the back or good job, pastor, good sermon, pastor?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like we can we can be thankful for those things and those things can speak to us
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  SPEAKER_00: in sometimes good ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: But if we're if we're needing that,
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  SPEAKER_00: if we're searching for that, if we're if we're I like what he said.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is on page 90 of the book.
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  SPEAKER_00: He says,
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  SPEAKER_00: Satan, I like how he says this, Satan will exaggerate it.
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  SPEAKER_00: He'll try to punch the ignition on your resentment.
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  SPEAKER_00: And isn't that the truth?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's always, Satan's going to use, that's a great tactic of the evil one.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's going to use your judgment.
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  SPEAKER_00: The pastor's quest, his need for approval, he's going to use it and twist it.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's going to exploit it so that both the pastor feels underappreciated and
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  SPEAKER_00: the people that he's preaching and pastoring are going to feel underserved.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's going to lead to this divide and this gap is going to lead
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  SPEAKER_00: to this resentment that occurs.
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  SPEAKER_00: When really the good news,
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  SPEAKER_00: which you can preach to yourself as well as to the people in pews,
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  SPEAKER_00: the good news is that my approval isn't based on you and it's not based on me.
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  SPEAKER_00: My approval is in Christ.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's the good
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  SPEAKER_01: news for preachers.
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  SPEAKER_00: The good news for preachers is that their approval,
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  SPEAKER_00: as Jared Wilson would say in his book,
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  SPEAKER_00: The Pastor's Justification, the pastor's justification is the same as any sinner's.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's in Christ alone.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what a good word that we can hear.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's what I would say is like the good wound or the good word that can be heard in
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  SPEAKER_00: a season of wounding is the fact that,
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  SPEAKER_00: Lord willing, by faith, you can see that actually your approval is somewhere else.
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  SPEAKER_00: It has always been in Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So there is a sanctification moment there for the pastor.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like way at the end of the day, we have to recognize this is grace to you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's really almost like,
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  SPEAKER_01: and that's where the whole household of faith,
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  SPEAKER_01: like the familial kind of words that like actually identify the church as family is,
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  SPEAKER_01: And you think about how if you're married and I'm married,
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  SPEAKER_01: sometimes the person who has wounded me the most is the person I'm married to.
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  SPEAKER_01: But yet out of that, I realize how much I've grown.
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  SPEAKER_01: How much I've, I,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I've grown and,
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  SPEAKER_01: but yet at the same time,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've really fallen deeper in love with that person,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and just,
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  SPEAKER_01: and there's just a way in which like every single one of these things,
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  SPEAKER_01: even foster, like that's a, that's where there's like, they foster love as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: Where at the end of the day,
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  SPEAKER_01: when we're celebrating these anniversaries and we're celebrating,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's a I have a Kindle thing here.
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  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's page 65.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know for you, but he just basically says this.
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  SPEAKER_01: That by imprisoning the unforgiving man at the end of the story,
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus reminds us that there is no such thing as justifiable bitterness.
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  SPEAKER_01: And which is what we usually fall into.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I've always just kind of like,
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  SPEAKER_01: when I do weddings,
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  SPEAKER_01: I always warn the man not to end up like that blame is the enemy of beauty.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like when I'm pointing them back to the sin of Adam,
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  SPEAKER_01: where he's like blaming his wife,
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  SPEAKER_01: I say the blame is the enemy of beauty,
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  SPEAKER_01: that the more you blame your spouse, the more that erodes your love for her.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I just think it's so easy then for even pastors,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: As we are imitating Christ,
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  SPEAKER_01: as we're following Christ,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we look at the bride of Christ,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we can also just end up being bitter with her,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we forget how precious she is to Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: And here, Harvey says, resentment always shackles us.
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  SPEAKER_01: We commit this moral crime expecting Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so really just like that,
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  SPEAKER_01: As we're running,
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  SPEAKER_01: as we recognize like this,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's just like, we recognize that like, yes, we've been wounded.
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  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it really just kind of like,
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  SPEAKER_01: it confronts us with the idea that maybe I'd put my identity in their applause,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I need to actually continue to run back to to Christ and find
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  SPEAKER_01: and root my identity in Him,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is pretty interesting because that takes us back to that Luke 10 20 passage
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  SPEAKER_01: where Where Jesus is looking at these guys and they're coming
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  SPEAKER_01: and they're celebrating like, you know, all these things that had happened.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, like demons obey your name and all those things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says, I saw Satan fall from the sky.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like the Super Bowl touchdown kind of of like mission.
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  SPEAKER_01: But Jesus quickly turns against and he says, don't tie your joy to this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Tie your joy in the fact your name is written in.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think the wounding in ministry always like helps reset us.
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  SPEAKER_01: To actually go back and then really find our identity in Him.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that just kind of rescues us from the bitterness trap, the unforgiveness trap.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then just it fosters the love of Christ inside within us.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so this is what at the end of the day, basically Dave Harvey summarizing Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: He says, He moves the gospel in the middle of our pain.
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  SPEAKER_01: Forgiveness and forward progress come only as we remember that our sins
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  SPEAKER_01: against God are our greatest debt.
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  SPEAKER_01: So really just kind of just,
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  SPEAKER_01: it reminds us once again that,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is your favorite saying that at the same time,
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  SPEAKER_01: man, like we, yes, we are a preacher, but we're still a sinner.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that at the end of the day, this is also maybe one of the enemy's ways of taking us out.
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  SPEAKER_01: But yet the conspiracy part of that is that this is the way Jesus takes us further
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  SPEAKER_01: in and further up into Christlikeness.
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  SPEAKER_01: Through the wounds.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's been so, so good.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Are you ready to kind of just jump into the next wonder here?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Before we do, though, I would also like to just add, like, hmm.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I think Dave does a really good job at presenting this sanctifying element
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: of church hurt, so to speak.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think we would be remiss if we didn't just acknowledge the fact that church hurt sucks.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, definitely, yeah.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: It can have a sanctifying thing.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think what Dave is doing is he's maybe giving us the language for us to be,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: for pastors,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: not just you and I,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: but for pastors at large to understand that this may be what God is doing.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: But that also doesn't negate the fact that,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that you can relay stories from friends, peers,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: or maybe even your own Pastoral ministry where you've been through seasons where
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: the wounds, they just hurt.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it doesn't feel sanctifying.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't feel in the moment.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think rarely does sanctification in the moment feel like,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: man, God's making me more holy right now.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it just feels like it hurts and it stinking sucks.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want it to keep happening.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can also acknowledge that, you know, it goes both ways.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes...
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Pastors shoot themselves in the foot by getting their eyes off mission and maybe,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: their preaching starts to become something different
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: and they start becoming more enamored by platforms
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: and they start becoming more interested in.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And by the same token,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes the church body can be swayed and be made to shift in other directions
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: and just leads to this regrettable,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunate gap between like,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: oh, we're not being fed and like, well, this is what I think.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So all of this kind of creates this reminder of the fact that There is no such thing
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: as a perfect church.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And once you show up and find one, you've probably made it imperfect.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that goes for both pastors and pew sitters alike.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this side of heaven,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: the unfortunate reality that's also just blatantly true is that there's going
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: to be situations where churches hurt pastors and pastors end up hurting their flock.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And That doesn't negate the gospel, though.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's the through line,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: like the thread that ties all of these conversations together is the fact
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: that even despite some of the really dark stories that you read,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: church headlines and,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: the watchdogs of the Internet that are keeping track of all the times
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: that pastors screw up,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: the through line is the fact that Despite all those headlines,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: the gospel is still true and it saves sinners and it brings sinners to repentance.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: It brings them into new life and what great hope we can have and cling to despite all of that.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I just would like to say, pastor,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: if like if there's pastors out there that are hurting,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: that are going through a season of church wounds and they're coming from within,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: they're coming from people within your own flock and Just know that there is grace
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: for you, that there is relief for you in the wounds of Jesus.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: There is relief for you in the words of God for you,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: which is the fact that your approval is not in anything else and that those moments
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: of wounding, they cannot shake or shift completely.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Who you are in Christ.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: You are in Christ.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: You are in Christ's shadow.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you're secure in that.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So anyways.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I do like,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you're mentioning that because I do like the lessons
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: that he brings out here of just like, know your limits, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, know your limits.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes like this is also crumbling to us, that crumbles the idol of control.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: People are just not responding the way I want them to respond.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And once you know your limits, then you're submitting to God's timing on how He changes.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: But in the midst of that, yes, it sucks.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: You are aware of...
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: The church's imperfections,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: the offenses, the mistrust, the betrayal, and all these are very, very real.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: But also just as you know your limits and you cast your burdens to Him,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: you also,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know your enemy,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: which is where,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Looking and thinking about like how,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: and Harvey kind of does jump into screw tape letters where basically he says,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: the secret strategy of the enemy is disillusion the believer through the church.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And just know that you're not exempt from that.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're not exempt from that.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Basically,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: the church will disappoint you in ways that attack your faith to love and
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: to serve her.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Satan will exaggerate it.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's now where I think as we're processing things like church hurt and all
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: that, Satan will exaggerate it.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: You need friends in ministry that are also in the same trenches as you are,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: that some of them actually will help you actually say,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: ah, I think that's not really what this might be.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Man, like, and help you maybe see another perspective.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or...
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: You need counselors,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: like just people that are trusted,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: gospel-centered,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: God-loving,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: that have almost like the experience of deep-sea diving into your soul
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe helping you see and gain perspective in all that.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the same time,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: obviously you need the scriptures,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: you need the gospel that is sufficient just to kind of like almost like in the midst
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: of like disorientation, you need these rhythms.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: That will reorient you back to actually maybe seeing them, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because Satan will try to,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know, this is what Harvey said, he'll try to punch the ignition on yourself.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And he'll try to throw just like even some more like where you're disillusioned.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And he says,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: if we want to finish the war without becoming casualties,
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: we must use the shield,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: which is basically like, he says basically we must use the armor of God.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Lesson number three is like, know your God who stands behind every single trouble.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just basically just run home.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like Psalm 46, you know, the Lord is our refuge and our strength in times of trouble.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Just run home.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the temptation is to think that is to mistake the church with Christ.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: We get hurt by the church and all of a sudden we end up actually not running to
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: the Christ of the church.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: We just need to actually always just recognize that like, man, I can still run to Christ.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the same.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: The world,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: in the secular world,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: they don't want to come to Christ because the church are hypocrites.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the church, we get hurt by the church and we don't want to go to Christ.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so we just have to kind of like not lose heart,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: which is basically Second Corinthians as a whole.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Just do not lose heart and let's run to him.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then constantly,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think lesson number four was remember redemptively,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: which is actually always keep the redemptive lens on us.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the same time, and just kind of look at the church also with the future lens of God.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is what Christ is doing.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: And this story ends in a glorious way.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I just really loved the lessons that he has in there.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: That like you were saying, that gospel cave, love never fails.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: You have to keep on going in there.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the more you stay closer to Christ,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: the more You know,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: you will see yourself bouncing back from some of these like places
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: that just seem like they just want to take you up.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you were talking a little bit earlier about how pastors are,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: they're pastors and sinners at the same time.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: that's that, like,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: saying within,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know, like, reformed circles, you know, we're simultaneously sinners and saints.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me, it always makes me think of that song by 21 Pilots called Heathens.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he, and the singer there, Tyler, he's like, all my friends are heathens, take it slow.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually like that line only because I think that's a great way
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: to understand this simultaneously Sooner and Saint thing.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: But also I think that If that's your paradigm for pastoral ministry is
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: that everyone has the potential to be better than they are,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: that I think you're going to be disappointed.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Actually,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: our paradigm for pastoral ministry is everyone's heathens,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: and they need words that call them out of darkness into light.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone is a sinner and a saint, and they're going to be afflicted.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: By the sin that clings so closely to them.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: We are all, we could say, all of us are Romans 7 Christians.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we have that as sort of our lens, we can, it doesn't make church hurt go away.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's anything that can do that.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think we can maybe understand it because we We're preaching to people
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: that are sinners and saints at the same time.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: As Tyler Joseph says in 21 Pilots, all my friends are heathens.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's not just a glib saying,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: but it's something that helps us understand that the People next
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: to you are are just they're crying out just like Paul,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: who is going to save me from this body of death?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know what to do, but I just can't do it.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I keep doing the things I don't want to do.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's always a reality.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really helpful way to.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, so this is now like where that next wonder comes in.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because like that's where he's like, okay, so you've been hurt.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: You've been wounded from the enemy within chapter three and the enemy without this next chapter.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like how then do you kind of like turn this into...
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do you then run to the Lord?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: How do you then heal?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actually what number five is.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, remember, God uses enemies to enlarge your soul.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I just love at least the way he did that because it then just moves you
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: to now saying, okay, I hear you, but this sucks.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: But like, how then do I actually...
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then you see him there, he jumps into obviously like Psalm 56, which is so, so beautiful.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's so beautiful where he's like, okay, this is how then you, God enlarges your soul.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: So God is going to use your enemies to enlarge your soul.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: But first, who and what are our enemies?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is it only people?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Scripture paints with broader strokes.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Death, disease, depression, these two are enemies.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Satan will use anything and anyone to try to destroy our faith.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And perhaps your children have left home in faith.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Someone you love is struggling with addiction.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Cancer is threatening you or someone you love.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Death has revisited your family.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: A close friend has become a bitter critic.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: The least of enemy of God.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: God's people face is long and varied,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: and yet the Spirit will not let your enemies destroy your faith.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: The wonder is that God will use all this to enlarge your soul.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: God will help you to embody what you have said to others about grace.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And love.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And because,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: so this right here like was so good because he's just,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: it's capturing just,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know you've had some moments like that,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: like where,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: you referenced this in your first book,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: like how just like in the midst of darkness,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: God was, you were learning so much more in what you were saying.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the comedy aspect of, man, like, I'm in the dark and it's family.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it was,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: it's been family members dying, my dad,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: my sister and all these things like,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: my sister and my dad, my mom and my wife getting cancer, my sister dying of AIDS.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: But in the midst of it all,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: like I've just watched how God has enlarged my soul,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: like Like and walked with me through where the death of my mother is how I came
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: to faith.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then the death of my sister is how seeing how the gospel connected with her
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I was serving the Lord made me,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: I remember just like committing more to saying,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Lord, I want to serve you even more in this way.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, And then the death of my father,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: I got to learn about God's forgiving heart because we had had a very hard life
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: and relationship.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then even just the My wife's cancer just,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: I remember just like saying, Lord,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't know how,
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: I remember like my wife is literally like just came from surgery and came
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: from radiation.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: She's at home.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm still answering the phone call of a marriage falling apart.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still having to go preach.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still having to go do a wedding.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still having to go do a funeral at the same time going back home.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: And like just my wife is still recovering and things.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: So and just watching this that like, huh, this is how basically just like the Lord uses it.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: He uses all these things to shape us and to continue to enlarge our souls so that
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: then we can love his sheep more and we can also at the same time grow.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I just love, what did you think about the way at least like he laid out this chapter?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: I love the way at least he ran through, he basically exegeted Psalm 56.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I loved his approach to using the psalm as a way to understand the way in
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: which our souls are enlarged,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: the way in which,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: like you've already referenced it,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: the way in which Christians,
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: but especially pastors that he's speaking to,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: can be drawn further up and further into who God is.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me always think of that imagery that appears in Peter's letters.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Peter, especially in his first epistle, he...
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is quite frequently referencing the notion of suffering,
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: the notion of this sorrow that is going to come about as a part of belonging to
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: who Christ is and that we shouldn't be surprised.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: We shouldn't be caught off.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Don't don't be surprised.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: James eventually says that, too.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: But Peter talks about the idea that this is not some abnormal,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: crazy, you know, some something that is so strange.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: To the faith once delivered to the saints.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: But also it makes me think of the imagery that he uses in the first chapter of that refining.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like our souls are enlarged and we could also use the same sort of language.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Our souls are refined in the midst of...
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: this isn't trying to like moralize,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: it's not trying to diminish suffering that people go through, especially pastors.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's just glibly sort of passing by it and just trying to get past what is difficult.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it also makes us think of the fact that I've used this illustration
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: so people who've heard this are probably tired of it.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: But to me,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: it's so helpful for understanding that Like the goldsmith is putting the gold into
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: the flames, not because he harbors bitterness towards the gold.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's putting the gold into the flames because he knows that he can already see what
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: the gold is going to become.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's a master artist.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: He can already like artists like that can look at pieces of like marble stuff.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: And just already see the way in which this is going to become a beautiful statue of whatever.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have that mind, so it's hard for me to comprehend that.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: But we can understand the same thing with who our God is.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: He's putting us in the flames,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: not because he has any sort of ill will towards us,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: not because he is mad at us,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: not because he is frustrated with us or grieved by us even.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, he is leading us through deep waters, as it says in the Psalms.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: He's leading us through difficult circumstances to refine us so
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: that we see how We depend on him and so that we are refined in ways
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: that even enlarge our thoughts of grace,
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: that enlarge and expand our imaginations, if you will, of how deep his love goes.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what's happening.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's happening even through those moments where we are wounded,
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: where we are brought through enemy territory,
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak, when we're brought through those places.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: That just feels so difficult and distressing.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is what Dave says in the paperback version, at least.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: He says,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: every wound you experience as you follow Jesus is an honor,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: is an identification with him.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's exactly what Peter conveys.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's in 1 Peter 4.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about this is what identifies us with Christ.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's our wounds.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Our wounds identify us with the wounded Messiah.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what a joy to be counted alongside of him in the midst of those difficult straits.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the idea that when he is going into this,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: he's going into this, he says, tell God that Basically, like, tell God how you feel.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let me pull them up, like,
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: just like,
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: as he's walking through this stuff,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: you see him just basically just exegeting the text and just basically following
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: the six-part movement where he says, tell God how you feel.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Tell God what you fear, tell God what you know, and tell your soul to respond faithfully.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it basically says,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: this is what the psalmist says, he sings what is true until he feels what he sings.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: He praises what God says until he believes what God has said.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Grace is less likely a tank division and more like a surgical division.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so just,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love this enlargement principle that he kind of just walks through there
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: where he says, God is not just providing hope in the midst of suffering.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: He is Using your enemies to enlarge your soul so
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: that you become more like your faithful Savior, Jesus.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just like you say there.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so it really just calls us to now,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: it just calls us to now like that time with the Lord
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: of just really being very vulnerable.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really just kind of openly, like you were saying earlier on, hurt sucks.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: But like, I'm telling God how I feel.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it's like, you know, tell God what you fear.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Let him go in.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, like what you were saying, what's like, what am I fearing here?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the things that like, what's being attacked here?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do I feel as if like, is my identity what's at stake here?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like really going down deep into what's happening into you and then tell God.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: What do you know about him?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then respond faithfully.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I loved some of the things about Harvey where he says
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: a wounded heart overgeneralizes and creates caricatures and reduces people
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: to their worst moments.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: And basically just like these are ways in which like you can break those patterns.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think...
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is the power of the book of Psalms.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: John Calvin is gonna say that the Psalms are the anatomy of the soul.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then Athanasius is going to say that like the Psalms are like a garden
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: and they're a garden that is like almost every type of fruit that you're looking
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: for.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: he says,
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: He says that the Psalms line up with the contours of your soul and it can be able
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: to help you discern on what's happening.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I love that little book,
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: his letter to Marcelinas,
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: where he just He basically says that like, hey,
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: when you're going through this and he prescribes like a different sum
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: for every single thing and saying,
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: especially for those in ministry,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: that when you see God is taking care of you, Sing this psalm, recite this psalm.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: But then if you see that like your enemies attacking you or this is happening,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the psalms he puts on there,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Psalm 56, he does mention something like that.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, man, go before God and cry out instead and be honest with him.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what speaks...
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's why then the Psalms are a gift to us to help us now to
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: help us with
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: the enlargement of our souls in the midst of that.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: The Lament Psalms,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: and it just really like,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: you remember like where Harvey says,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: pity the pastor who needs closure to move forward.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a...
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just know that this is part of the package, man.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And as we're moving forward, you know, we're going to always going to have critics.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to have a difficult elder.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to have church conflict.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: But just know that maybe that's what we just need to do.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: In the moment,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes it's easy to forget,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: but we need other people that are going to remind us that this also too is
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: to enlarge our souls, which is the reason why books like this are written.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was just going to say,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you mentioned it,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: that notion that Dave kind of conveys of the psalmist almost like singing
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: until he convinces himself.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've often thought that sometimes we approach the psalms as if we're reading
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: a bunch of experts who figured out the faith.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: And actually,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think more often than not, I think what you're reading is a singer singing again.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's singing not only to remind himself,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: but singing, as Dave kind of says, to convince himself of what's true.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: To convince you.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's...
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's way more helpful.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much more helpful to understand the Psalms,
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: not as like you're reading some expert who is giving you sage advice.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: Actually,
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: you're reading another sufferer who is in the pits of something that is horrible
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: and harrowing.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he's singing to remind himself of what he knows is true.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why so often the psalmist, David, or whoever it might be, is crying out.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: He knows that the Lord can never leave him, but then he's crying out, God, where are you?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see you.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: I can't even hear you right now.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Have you forgotten about me?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: And David understands that.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: And David knows.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: David is aware of the fact that the Lord is not going to leave and he's not going
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: to just totally abandon him.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: But as you noted, he is...
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Safe enough in the presence of the Lord to be honest about where his soul is at.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: And what a helpful reminder for us as preachers that we are not above any of that.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right along with the psalmists,
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: we are free to vocalize, to give voice to those moments where we feel beaten down.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: Where we feel low.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's through that that God is going to speak such words of comfort to us.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's the pattern that we find through the Psalms.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is so very helpful for pastoral ministry, for Christian life in general.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: And to come out of there saying this, I know God is for me.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then just come out of that.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's actually like,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: it's like one moment is like, but to come out of that and just saying this, I know.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: God is for me.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just one of those things where it's like in the New Testament,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: you have a guy who's like, this is one thing I know.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was blind, but now I see.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: But here he's coming out of that pit.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the resilience aspect of that is the enlargement.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: It comes in, I think in verse 12, I must perform my vows to you, oh God.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like where it's like, Man, they've wounded me, bro.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I always say that, like, bro, you just got gospel shanked.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: like in prison,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: because in prison,
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: like, you know, if you watch those movies, they shank you with anything.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like blunt stuff.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: And like, and those usually come from nowhere because you don't expect a weapon to be there.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: But like,
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: but that's actually like where it's like,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: out of like really running to the Lord and telling Him how you feel,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: receiving grace and telling Him what you fear and all those things,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: you can come out of there saying, this I know.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then people ask you, And you're like, I'm going back to love the church.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that I may walk before God in the light of life.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then just like you're watching just like really like where it's like,
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: man, like you're in the lab.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, that's what Dave says.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're in the lab and you come out of there fresh pressed.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're in the furnace, basically, like you said.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you come out of there, you know.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Your clay pot,
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: this is how he ends this one,
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: your clay pot may feel busted, but Christ is at work in exceptional ways.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: Look up, sing aloud, and lead on.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I was going to say was,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: and this is becoming a favorite thing of mine,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think pastors just need to On a daily basis,
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know, engage in probably something like even hymn singing, man.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like just your time with the Lord, you know, just keep a hymn close by.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes, man, like that's, you know, keep a hymn close by, keep a psalm close by.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: It could be the psalm singing or whatever it is,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: but really like just like,
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to engage into a time of like singing to ourselves,
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: like every single day of just,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: and then also singing,
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: memorizing,
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: meditating,
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: and just having like,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: have something you're ruminating on,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: on a daily basis,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: just as a way to really just like,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: once again,
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: inform your heart and,
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: and you're right, like,
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: when you read that letter to Marcelinas,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: Athanasius is saying, when you're going through this, recite this psalm.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost as if like recite it over and over until it awakens.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and then when you,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: you might not be out of the trial,
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: but But at least you have that assurance, this I know God is for me.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: You might not get, yeah,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: you can't control how people are still acting and all those things,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: but your confidence is grounded in the fact your soul has been enlarged.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then you find you've got room for that person who's difficult.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: He's just like, hey, come in, you're good.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then And then out of that, you spend more time with Jesus.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: And out of that, they get to see a perfect picture of what grace looks like.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: They get to see a perfect picture
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: of like,
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: bro, I just treated you like junk and you treated me a little more like Christ.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes those kind of apologies come two years after, you know?
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just like, I've gotten those emails, bro.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's like, hey man, I just look back and I realize, man, I didn't treat you right.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: All you were trying to do was to love me to Christ.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: And usually I'm just like, huh, this is how long it took.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, yeah, anyway, that's it.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think what Dave is doing in this chapter,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: but then this will kind of be like a T-ball setup for the next couple chapters,
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: which is what he's reminding us of within his exposition of Psalm 56 is
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: that we don't have to pretend that we aren't fragile.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: When we come into the presence of God,
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: which when that becomes something that we are more and more familiar with,
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: when we familiarize ourselves with our own fragility,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: then that becomes sort of the way in which we build as he's going to get into in
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: the next chapter.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're building teams through weak leaders because guess what?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else is just as fragile as you are.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to pretend that we got it all figured out, that we have it all put together.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: And neither should we presume that the people next to us have it more put together than we do.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're just as fragile.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're just as fraught with distress and weakness and failure.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I think as he shows, not only is God working on you.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: So chapter five, not only is God working on you in the midst of your fragility and weakness.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: But actually,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: that's kind of how God wants to build his church,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: which he gets into in chapter number six,
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: like build steering teams through weak leaders.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's what he said.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's the sixth wonder of the way in which God is building his church is actually
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: through weakness, not the polished, pizzazzy, put together amazing communicators.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: God can use amazing communicators.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: He can use charismatic leaders.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, like, how has the church been formed for 2,000 odd years through Christianity?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Through pastors,
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: through guys,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: through men and women who are very familiar with their weakness,
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: very familiar with their sins,
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: very familiar with the fact that they don't have it all put together.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, they are the chief of sinners.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: But praise be to God, there is one who has come to seek and to save the lost.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like what a great hope that is.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: What a great foundation that is for the longevity of the church,
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: for the foundation of the church.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: It begins with weakness.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I love the fact that he says weak leaders.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: First of all,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: he says resilience is the work of God in and through the mystery and agony
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: within both the world and the church by which he helps me persevere.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: Weak leaders, jumping on, he says weak leaders make life.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: For stronger and more resilient ministries.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: These ministries learn to rely on the power of Christ, not human strength.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so basically then it's like our weaknesses end up actually shaping our team culture.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Our weakness plus God's power equals resilient ministry,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: which is really what the whole book is like.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just something about it where it's like if you are surrounded
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: by weak leaders, all of us are actually admitting our need for Christ.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so not only that, we admit our need for Christ.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: We admit that we don't have it together.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, we're patient with one another.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: But we also recognize when we're working together that That actually,
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: because that my responsibility is also to also just point you towards Christ and
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: as much as your responsibility is to point me towards Christ.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just basically like how he is beautifying the church.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Through weak people, which is the paradox kind of.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: Paul has lots of these like pictures of like where it's like,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, when I'm weak, that's where I'm actually strong.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I'm suffering pain.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's when God does most of his glorious work and all that.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's just learning that this is actually the way in which God does just some
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: of his most beautiful work.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: And through just like through these things, These things.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: And, and in that way,
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: then it's actually like we are,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: for jumping on to even like wonder number seven,
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: we run to finish well because we,
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: we recognize that like, man,
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: in order for us to finish well and to,
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: and to do this thing well,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: we need to, to make sure that like we, we, We don't run away from weakness.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Weakness is the way, which is one of J.I.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Packer's last books.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: I look at two guys that I look at and I really have looked up to in terms
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: of ministry was John Stott and J.I.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: Packer.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: And some of their last books,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: one of them,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: John Stott,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: he had a book called Radical,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: where he talks about just some neglected aspects of discipleship,
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: and one of them was weakness.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then J.I.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: Packer wrote a book called Weakness is the Way,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: where he's just kind of looking at both of them in their last years of life.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually looking and saying that like,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: man, our culture likes to maybe just like parade the strong people.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: And even right now,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: like productivity,
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: stoicism, like,
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: just like we're meant to,
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: I look at every single thing,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: Brad, like, and I think about the fact that All my responsibilities.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I look and look at that influencer,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: like, you know, that wakes up at 4 a.m., you know, drinks this amazing water.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're seeing like the timestamps.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: And by 8 o'clock, they've already been to the gym.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: They've already made their first phone calls and they've already done coaching.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: They've already done.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we are under this pressure to produce.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: But you look and then you're saying, man, is this what Christ expects me to do?
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you realize it's actually totally different.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm meant to wake up on a daily basis and take a weak posture.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Opening up the Word of God is showing, apart from you, I can do nothing.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: Kneeling down is showing that in order to go up, I need to go down.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: Almost everything, serve another, love another, do.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: And all these things, all of them are just kind of pointing us to the humble life.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like as a way then to actually like then, you know, so then we can be resilient.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think he's a question there like that,
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: like, you know, our weakness plus God's power is equal to resilient ministries.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so good.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know if you want to add any more onto that.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm glad you kind of connected both chapters six and seven,
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: because I felt like they were very similar in what they were conveying.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me think of kind of what we've been talking about,
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: which is when we are,
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: as I said a little bit ago,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: when we are familiarizing ourselves,
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: when we become familiar with our own fragility,
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: then when that becomes the message that we deliver,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: then we Lord willing,
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: we are able to foster and cultivate a church culture where instead of everyone sort
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: of popping and prompting up their own egos,
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: they are likewise familiarizing themselves with their own fragility.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Then we understand that this is the way that we are not only brought
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: into relationship with one another, but this is the way in which God...
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: God speaks through us and to us.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: I like what he says.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: This comes near the end of chapter number six.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's another quote I want to share from chapter seven.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: But he says on page 141, God conquered the sins and failings of humanity.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like the way in which we connect to those that we are leading or preaching to is not
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: by just showing them, look how heroic I am.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: Look at how strong in faith I am.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: Look at how many successes I have in ministry.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, we connect to the people that we're preaching to precisely by being honest
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: with our fragility and weakness.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're He says in chapter number seven,
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: he says, quote,
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: this is on page 161,
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: when pastors are honest,
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: we look a lot less like poster kids for faith and more like the desperate dad
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: who said to Jesus, I believe, help my
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: unbelief.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: This all speaks to that notion,
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: like the conspiracy, quote unquote, of gospel ministry is that...
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: We become more, quote unquote, productive when we realize how weak we are.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: We become more efficient.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: We become more useful to the kingdom when we openly and readily admit just how weak we are.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, I believe, but help my unbelief.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: It always makes me think of At the very end, I love this little detail.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the longest chapter in the Bible, Psalm 119, is 176 verses long.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so for 175 odd verses, the psalmist David is just extolling the word of God.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he's praising the fact that I love God's word.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: God's word is my life.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I never want to go away from God's word over and over and over again for 175 verses.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last verse.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: What does he say?
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: The last verse of Psalm 119 is, I constantly am going astray.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't stop pursuing me.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's the Bradley Gray paraphrase, but essentially that's what he's saying.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_00: I keep going astray.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so you would think that after 175 verses that he would have learned not to go astray.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, what does he find out?
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_00: At the very end, What is David confessing?
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's another way of saying, I believe, help my
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: unbelief.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's confessing the same thing.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: David, even in the midst of, oh,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love the word of God and he sounds so pious,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: but actually David is just being honest.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: He needs the word of God.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_00: As we said earlier,
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: he's writing all of these things down about God's word,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: about God's laws, about God's commands, about God's statutes.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: Not because he's figured it out,
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_00: because he's convincing himself of what is true,
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: because he knows his own heart and his own heart is what I keep going astray.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: But God, don't stop seeking me.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: Don't stop chasing after me.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: He knows David.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: He was a David was a shepherd.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: He knows that sheep have a tendency to wander and.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: He knows that he's just like that sheep and he's praying, God, don't stop hunting me down.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: Don't stop chasing after me.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: And praise be to God that that I think is where God wants us.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: He wants us in the crater of weakness and Because then we are dependent.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: He wants us there because then we understand what grace is.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: We understand what mercy is.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not about our successes.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about our heroism.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about how strong in faith we are.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's God's grace meeting us in our weakness.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's the conspiracy.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: The conspiracy of gospel ministry is just that.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: We are clay pots.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: We are weak vessels.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not about us.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the God who speaks through the weak.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so good.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, we're going to wrap up here.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as we wrap up,
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to really,
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: once again, just recommend, I just love this little book here.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in here also,
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: and there's just some things that we obviously like kind of jumped over,
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know, because you're We can't cover the whole book.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: You have to still go and literally read it.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just go and read it.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to go read it.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing I want to really say is that,
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: for yourself and for your teams and for the cultures,
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: just as we recognize,
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: we need to like really maybe just kind of keep this equation going.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: In the play that, man, I want to finish strong.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_01: I want to, you know, so my weakness plus God's power is equals to resilience.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: That my weakness is not a threatening thing to my resilience.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: My weakness is actually, it shows me my need for God's power.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the book,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: then you have so many kind of things that you can actually be able to use towards
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: that resilience.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I just really just am very grateful for this book.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we're still,
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_01: me and Brad,
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: we're looking at some more books that we probably would love to kind of just talk
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: through.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: But this has been so enriching for me.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope that it is actually enriching to you as you are listening,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: because at the end of the day,
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: our goal is to stand before him ready and hear him saying,
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_01: well done, good and faithful servants.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to be faithful with my weaknesses.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: As well as my successes and stuff.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, Brad,
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you have anything to say and then we can just pray and then, yeah.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think it's really good.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: We keep coming back to 2 Corinthians 12,
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know, the power of God that is manifest in our weakness.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the paradigm for pastoral ministry.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a conspiracy, but not very much of conspiracy because Paul lays it out there quite well.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it is it's it's counterintuitive to what we think.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think this book is really necessary.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would definitely it's it's it's creeping up that list.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I what I mean when I say that, like,
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: there's a We're not always told to just be free with our weaknesses and be open
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_00: with them, be honest with them.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_00: But actually that's where God wants us.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's true even for leaders.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: True even for church leaders.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to think that we got to be so polished and charismatic
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: and always have all these things put together.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: But what Dave does an excellent job of showing that that's actually opposite of
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: the way that God works.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And praise be to God for that because our weaknesses are sometimes very apparent.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for joining us, guys.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we hope you can join us in the future as we dive into more and more material
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: that fosters resilience.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: We hope this was a blessing to you.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_01: God bless.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks so much Raphael for allowing me to share this episode on this podcast feed.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet,
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_00: make sure to go follow him on his substack, which I'll link to in the notes below.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't yet, also make sure to subscribe to Ministry Minded Podcast.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for reaching out with your notes
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_00: and messages regarding how shows like this or other resources that you might find
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: on Grace Upon Grace have impacted you.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Those mean a lot to me.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_00: They go a long way.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for that.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Until the next episode, blessings.