Latest / Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche / ICYMI: Michael Was on Ghosted! by Roz Hernandez

Transcript

ICYMI: Michael Was on Ghosted! by Roz Hernandez · Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: What's that at the foot of my bed?
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: It's spooky and kooky.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's dead. It's coming this way.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Wait a minute. Hey, I'm ghosted.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I lost my minders. Leave me, please. Hey, boo. It's me, Roz,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and welcome to Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, the podcast where
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I talk to people that I like about the paranormal. Oh,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: my God. We have, I think, our first ever practicing
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: lawyer on the show today. It's Michael Foote. He is
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: the host of the new podcast, Unexactly Right, called Brief Recess,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: a legal podcast, which he hosts with Melissa Malbranch. I'm
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: obsessed with him. Many people know him from his social media,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: always giving great legal advice. And, you know, there are
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: cases of the paranormal in court. And so we got
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: to talk about some of those with him today. So fun.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: He also has a great kind of ghost story situation.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I'm filing this one under the category of expert. It's
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: not like your typical episode. We didn't even get to
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: the haunted eBay doll or the EVPs this week. And
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: we ran out of time. But don't worry. We'll be back.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Business as usual next week. All right. Let's just get
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: to it. Court is in session. Here's my conversation with
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Michael Foote and with the show. Oh, my God. Court
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: is in session. I actually, I have this always, actually.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Wait, oh good.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: I would be such a good judge. You don't even understand.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: You are a good judge. Thank you. And you're already
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: on the stand, so thank you for having me.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of like the ghost judge, so I have this.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Sometimes people are like, I don't know if it's a
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: ghost story.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: And then you adjudicate? Yes. Okay.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Turns out, in my opinion, it's always a ghost, so.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: And it probably usually is. And honestly, you're probably more
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: accurate than the American judiciary. Your decision about whether something's
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: a ghost is probably closer to justice than what I'm
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: dealing with.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: How is your life? What are you dealing with?
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Right now, it's kind of a hot mess. If you
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: were in the green room and you saw the inside
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: of my bag, it's kind of like that. It's like
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: candy wrappers, a couple pill bottles. Yes. And that's a
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: half empty water bottle. It's that's kind of my life
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: right now is it's chaotic. I mean, I'm an immigration
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: lawyer in America in 2026. You can only imagine what's happening.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of my life. And we don't have
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: to get, I mean, deep into it. But my personal
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: life is great.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Good.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. My husband's a bad bitch. Love him. Good. Yeah.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: He's an icon in his own right. He texted me
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: this morning that the dog. Because I'm in L.A. now,
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: and we live in New York.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: And basically— But you're just visiting.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: I'm just visiting, yeah. Basically, last night, it sounds based
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: off a few chaotic text messages that the dog just
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: kind of, like, helicoptered his dick while pissing all over
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: the apartment.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: That's actually very impressive for a dog to be able
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: to do.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's 13. I was like, wow, the hip mobility.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: You should be very proud.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: He hit the ceiling. Like, yeah, I'm like, how'd you
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: actually manage to— Hit the ceiling.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: That is a stream on that guy. That's great.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Who among us hasn't?
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I can't say I have.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: That's impressive.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: What's your dog's name?
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Jack. Jack. Yeah. He's really bad. He's a really bad dog.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Who was I talking to?
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, why are you trying to make me attracted to
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: your dog? I feel like you're like, he's a bad
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: boy with a huge dick.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: And he's really into piss play.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Stop saying all my buzzwords. Okay.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: You heard it here first. Are you on... Like sniffies
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: or any of that stuff.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: I'm on Grindr, but only for the most part. Only
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: for finding guys to go ghost hunting with me.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: That's a thing you can do on Grindr.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: It's a thing I do. Good for you. On my
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: YouTube channel, Roz Hernandez, the haunted doll.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: You heard it here first.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, they've heard it many times on this podcast. I
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: never shut the fuck up about it. Please subscribe.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: People were talking at the bar this weekend. I was
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: at a gay bar and people were talking about how
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: expensive the Grindr premium is. I pay. And that the
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: ads are really bad now. Yeah. I haven't been on
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Grindr in a really long time. It's been like a decade.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's great. You're really missing out on good stuff
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: over there. It's really the scene.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: But someone at the bar pulled up like the Sniffies
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: app and was showing me what was happening.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: That scares me.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: That's hole on main. Like it's actually... So aggressive. Yeah.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's nice to see who your neighbors are,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: but I don't want them to see where I am.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: You see things that you can't erase from your mind
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: of your neighbors if you're in a situation like that.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because then you're taking out the trash and you know.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: You're like, oh. You run into them. You're like, oh.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I know what you're into.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Hi, Mr. Henderson. Hi, Gooner3434. Not the gooner. The first
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: five minutes of the show, we're already talking about gooning.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Ghosted.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: So you are here not to talk about gooning. You
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: are here to talk about the paranormal with me.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited. I'm a true believer. Really?
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing. I know this is fucked up and
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: some people will not like that I'm saying this, but
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: there is kind of a thing where you're like, wait,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: really smart people are not supposed to believe in this stuff.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: No, I think I'm going to clarify your statement.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: So when like a doctor or like a very educated
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: scholar or whatever, you're like, wait, they believe in this?
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Then it might be real.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I know. Like there are a couple of
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: books about this. I think Mary Roach talks, like she's
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: a scientist and she did a whole book on the paranormal.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: And I think that oftentimes gets mistranslated, right? This notion
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: that people who believe in this stuff aren't smart or
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: that really smart people couldn't possibly believe in that. But
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: I feel like if you are really smart, you're able
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: to understand an argument, understand logic, but also when that
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: logic and argument fails. So I know the things that
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: I've seen or heard from other people and I'm like, logically,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: there's no reasonable way this could have possibly happened without
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: paranormal activity.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Well, these conversations, sometimes at least what we're looking for
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: is these scenarios that you kind of hit a dead
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: end with. And you're like, literally dead end. It must
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: be the dead. If we can't figure out what this is, well,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: I guess the only logical explanation is an invisible dead person.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: It's possibly that. Yeah. I think that I don't think
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: we'll leave this conversation today with me. having any resolution
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: as to what happened to me.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Good. I don't want that ever.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Do people come on here and they're like, Roz, figure.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: My shit out for me. People come to me thinking
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: that I'm going to give them answers and I don't
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: know anything.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: None of us know anything.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: We're just figuring it out together.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Don't believe anyone that acts like they know anything.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Just have fun.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Enjoy the mystery.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: I do feel like that's where Sylvia Brown got a
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: lot of the hate or is getting a lot of
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: the memography right now I'm a Sylvia Brown truther. I
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: think Sylvia Brown is right. Like, I think she's actually psychic.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: That is my hot take. And I'm willing to go
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: on the record with that.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Why do you think that? Because her nails. Like, if
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: you have nails like that, you know stuff.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: She, I think we're so focused on how decisive she is.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: We don't know if that man drowned. When someone comes
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: and says, hey, what happened to my father? He drowned. Okay.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: That person accepted it. That's actually on the audience member
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: for not pressing her further on what happened. It's not
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: really on her.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: See, that's the thing. Now, you, with your law experience,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: do you got follow-up questions if someone says something like that?
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: I guess I do have some follow-up questions for Sylvia. Okay, okay.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: She's still alive.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Let's try it.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Ask me what happened to your ex-boyfriend.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Sylvia, what happened? Happened to my boyfriend. He just he
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: went out for a pack of cigarettes and never came back.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: And I know he didn't walk out on me. He suffocated.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: That's actually all I need to know. That's actually really.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: I understand why there is no follow up question, because actually,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I don't need to know. That's all the closure I need.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Sylvia Brown was giving people closure. She was giving them
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: the answer. Maybe it wasn't the answer, but it was.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: It was something.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: It was something. Yeah. Yeah.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Have you been to Psychics?
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: I went to a Psychic with my friend when I was, like,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: very young. I think I was, like, a teenager. We
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: were just walking by a little corner, went in, got
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: a reading.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Where was this?
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: This was in Manhattan. Oh, are you from there? Yeah,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: in the village. I'm from Long Island, but I grew
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: up in New York, so.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: You know, Long Island is a classic spooky place.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: For mediums, right?
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Well, the Long Island medium.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: The Long Island medium, yeah. Yes.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: She's very— Icon of fingernails. She— I don't. And that's
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: why I'm not good at my psychic predictions. But she's
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: from there. Amityville Horror on Long Island.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, the Amityville Horror. Yeah.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: The Amityville Horror.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That was a bad one.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: There's also... Isn't there like a scary... Asylum or something?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Cropsey? It was in like Kings Park, Long Island. There's
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: an asylum, like an abandoned asylum now. Yeah. Amityville Horror.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, we can get into that.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: And that's something that like, you know, involved a trial
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: and stuff because a guy killed his whole family.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we still don't really know what happened. Like,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: he seemed totally normal and went crazy. I do. What happened?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I've looked into the case.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: What happened? Give me the bullets.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: I'm... I don't know. These people, it was Ed and
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: Lorraine Warren. Do you know these people?
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, not everyone on Long Island knows each other.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: And I think some of them are dead now. Okay.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Ed and Lorraine Warren in my world, um, they're big deal.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: And they're the ones that investigated the Amityville horror. Oh,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: they're the ones that the conjuring movies are based on.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Yeah.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Um, I ain't buying it.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: You're not buying it? No. There was nothing paranormal there?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: There was just a guy who wanted, who killed his family?
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe I think there was a little bit. I think
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: that like with everything, it's like, anytime you're like based
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: on a true story, please.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: My lips are based on a true story. Okay? They
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: started as real.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: We're one surreal story.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're. They are shaped as lips. There's been enhancements,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: and that is sometimes what happens when you hear based
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: on a true story. It starts with something real, and
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: then things start getting crazy.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: You sold the rights, I think is what happened.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: I sold the rights to these lips a long time ago,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and you know what? They're making me money. Actually, because
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: we've done this show since the early days of radio plays,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: There's always different kinds. We want to do different things
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: a little bit. I was thinking it would be so
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: fun to look at cases where ghosts have made their
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: way into the courtroom.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: I would love that. Yeah? Yeah, I know nothing about these.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: I want to hear your expertise. Well, let's just start
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: with one, and then I want to hear more about
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: your stories. Okay, so Ranker.com has 10 spooky court cases
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: involving ghosts.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Love that.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: This was written by Jim Rowley in 2021. Okay, so
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: the one case I was just thinking we could talk
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: about for a second. It was a case that involved
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: the Conjuring movies. So are you familiar? Are you like
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: a horror?
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I love horror, but I've never got into the Conjuring saga.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: That's okay.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Because by the time it reached me in my life,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: we were on episode 2000.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: The re-Conjuring of the underbelly of the first Conjuring. It
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: was just, there were too many colons, ampersand, subtitle.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Honey, if there's one problem I deal with, it's too
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: many colons. Too little time.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: On that gate cruise you worked.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Too little time.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: You just got back from a gate cruise.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: And there were colons. Some of them semi-colons.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: So, the, and Lorraine Warren, there's the couple that these
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: movies are about.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: They were real people. They, you know, again, studied the
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Amityville horror, but they studied these cases that became the
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Conjuring movies.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: So, in 2016, Gerald Brittle- who's the author of the
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: 1980 book, The Demonologist, which details the case files of
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Ed and Lorraine Warren. He sued Warner Brothers for $ 900
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: million over the Conjuring franchise. According to Brittle's lawsuit, when
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: he signed the agreement with Lorraine Warren in 1978 to
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: write The Demonologist, it included an exclusive non-compete clause saying,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: that forbade anyone from making derivative works based on the Warrens'
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: cases without Brittle's approval. Brittle's lawsuit also claimed that when
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: he sent Warner Brothers a cease and desist letter, the
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: company responded that it was basing the movie not on
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: the demonologist, not the book, but on, quote, historical events.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Brittle's lawsuit challenged Warner Brothers to either prove that the
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: hauntings and the demonologist had really happened... Or fork over
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: nearly a billion dollars.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: They ended up settling out of court.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So this happens a lot with intellectual property cases is
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: that you have to prove that the work was actually yours.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: It was an idea. So like the first rule of
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: intellectual property law is that you have to distill it
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: down into some sort of physical like material. Right. Whether
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: that's recorded on some sort of drive. whether it is
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: a written document, you have to distill it into something
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: tangible because you can't copyright or trademark an idea. That's
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: really like the one cardinal rule. So what it sounds
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: like here is that they had a lot of conversations
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: about what the demonologist or the conjuring was going to be,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: but only one of them maybe put it into writing
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: or maybe sold it As.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: An actual commodity. This was 36 years later? 26 years later.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Right, after they made a bunch of money on it.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And then they threw together a lawsuit to just try
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: and get some of that, a cut of that. And
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: it sounds like they settled.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I don't think he got $ 900 million. Now, where do
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: people come up with something like that?
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: They pull it together based off historic cases. There's usually
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: a couple different types of damages categories. So it'll be like...
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Compensatory damages are damages that are owed to you based
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: off what you lost. And then there's punitive damages, which
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: are we want the next person who's thinking about doing
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: this to know that they can't fuck around. So we're
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: going to lump damages on punitive to ensure you're going
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: to pay and you're going to be the story that
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: we tell everyone this bitch had to pay this much
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: money to set the precedent. So no one else fucks
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: around in the future because you found out. Wow.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy? But 900 million.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And they probably did it, A, to make headlines,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: to get everyone's attention. And to get Warner Brothers to
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: actually show up in court. Because I'm sure they're getting
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: sued all the time, right? True. People are throwing lawsuits together.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: They actually had to get their attention somehow. So that
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: is probably what I think happened there.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: But something like this is also, like, I also know.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know the exact details, but there's also like
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: the life rights. Like they like sold their life rights,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I believe.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: To Warner Brothers. Yeah.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: So it's like, God, so many rights. It's like, God,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: can you just make a movie about me?
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: But those are the life rights. It's their life story
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: as you're selling with the life rights.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I know, but then it's like, okay, but then this
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: guy wrote a book about us and now it's like, sorry.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: But it's true. At a certain point, you become a
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: public figure and people can just start writing biographies about you.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: They don't necessarily need the rights, right? So like, We
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: have the unofficial Madonna cookbook or whatever, right? So, like,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: is that Sylvia Brown book behind you even? Like, did
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: she sell those rights from beyond the grave?
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Well, I am planning on doing a biopic of Sylvia
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Brown temples on the other side. How wisdom from beyond
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: the veil can help you right now. The number one
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling author.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I think she was like the number one Halloween costume
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: this year.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, was she?
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. I saw a lot of Sylvia Browns out
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: at the club.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Good for her. Okay, tell me your ghost stories or
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: your paranormal experiences.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Okay. It was a crazy time in my life. I was,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I want to say like 19 or 20, maybe 21.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: And I was, I don't want to say promiscuous. I
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: would just say busy. I had dated a lot. I
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: had plenty of, like, not plenty of.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Gunnar 21 in your neighborhood.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I was taking out the garbage and meeting Mr. Henderson,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Gunnar 21 in the neighborhood. And I don't know.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: This is in New York.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: This is in New York. And I, you know, was dating.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I was 19, 20. you're dating. You're not really seeing anyone.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: You don't have a boyfriend. There's nothing like that. Sure.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: But at the time, I started seeing this guy who
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: was much older than me. He was deep into his 40s.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And he was very wealthy. He worked in one of
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: the major banks, I would say. He's pretty high up
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: at one of these major banks. And I think he's
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: still there because he is on social media. Yeah. So
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: he was a really big deal even back then. And
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: this is, I'm 37 now. So this is at least
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: 15 years ago. So I started dating this guy. We'll
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: call him Gunnar 21. Okay. And it wasn't, I wasn't
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: being paid to date him. I want to be clear
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: about that, but I was receiving financial benefits, right? Like
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: rent or a place to stay.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Or gifts and stuff like that. You know? You know what?
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Good for you. It was... really liked him like this
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: wasn't like oh i like this guy because he's paying
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: for stuff or giving me gifts or has money or
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: taking me out i really liked him like and that
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: was honestly why.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah You don't have to tell us. We get it.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Nowadays we would call this situationship. Yeah, we've all been there. Yeah, situationship.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: And I was broke. I was waiting tables. I had
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: no money. And I hope that people who know me
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: and watch my show know that I would tell you.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: If I really was just there for the money. Because
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I would fucking tell you, I'm not scared.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the best. If it's not some crypt
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: keeper coming out that you have to be like, oh, God.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Night of the living dead. Yes. Yeah. Freddy Krueger.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Time to pay off my debts.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: And he's got the Freddy Krueger nails. Nothing like that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Very handsome, lovely investment banker. So he goes out to
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: the Hamptons for the summer. And he has a, I will, this,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I was aware of this. He did have a whole family,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: a wife and kids.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Did they know about you or like?
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: No.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: You had two families.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I wasn't his family. I was just some
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: guy he was hooking up with.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: As queer people, we get to choose our families.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: The two of you are a family.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: So, I don't know what you... You've lived in New York,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: so you know that the Hamptons.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: No, just temporarily every time I visit.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Okay. So, the Hamptons are like a couple hours outside
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: the city. So, you could take a train, you could
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: take a bus. Some people fly if you're really wealthy.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: And so where was his family in the city?
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Both. So people sort of go back and forth all
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: summer to the Hamptons. So he would go out to
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: the Hamptons and he would for the summer and he
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: would put me up at like a shitty motel down
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: the street.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't he get you a good place?
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know. And I thought about this before talking
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: to you today. I thought about like, wait, why was
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: I staying at like the Montauk Motel?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: That's so weird.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: But at the time, I wasn't really aware nor gave
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: a shit. Like I was like, oh, I'm here to
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: see him. And this is the hotel. You know, I
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: was just, when you're young, you just don't really like
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: think about it. Sure.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And it's all free. Like if it's free.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: It's all free. And I hadn't been staying at really
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: nice hotels before that. So it wasn't like, I was like, oh,
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: this is so much shittier than what the hotels I'm
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: used to staying at with my other boyfriend, Mr. Citibank. Like, no.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, this is the thing. And
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: this is the place and I am here. You know,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: I just didn't really think about it. I was kind
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: of a dumb bitch. So one night in this motel,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: I'm in bed. And I don't know how to describe it,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: but I'll do my best at some point. And he's
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: not there. I'm alone because we're meeting the next day.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Something moved me in the bed physically. And I woke
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: up and I couldn't move. It was the middle of
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: the night. I'd gone to bed. I was drinking a
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: lot and doing drugs back then, but I'm pretty sure
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: I was sober that night. I was probably exhausted. Like
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: I never, I didn't really sleep a lot.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Either way, you drink and do a little drugs, you
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: don't just like get physically moved.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I remember waking up and being like, why
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: am I moving right now? Like, this is not on
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: my own volition.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: But what do you mean by that? Like how much movement?
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I was shifting in bed, sort of like if you're
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: looking down at the bed counterclockwise. So my head's starting
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: to move towards the right side of the bed.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Involuntarily.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my legs are swinging to the left a bit.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: That takes crazy physicality and you would feel it if
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: you were doing that with your own muscles.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: And I couldn't stop it. Like I wasn't able to
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: be like, I'm going to get up and go to
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: the bathroom now. I was like unable to move, but
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: also moving. So I didn't have control over my body,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: which was like kind of terrifying. Whatever this was did
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: turn me all the way to the other end of
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: the bed. My head, by the end of the 30 seconds,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: was at the foot of the bed. And then it
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: just stopped. And I was able to move with my
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: feet on the pillow now. It was fucking crazy.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: What do you think that was?
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: I think it was a ghost in the motel, the
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Montauk Motel or something. Like it was... It was definitely
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: some sort of spirit. Like there was no voices. I
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: didn't see anything. I could open my eyes and look around.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I think partway through being shifted, I closed my eyes
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: because I was terrified. Yeah. And yeah.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: I think it was his wife.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: She had me on wires. Yeah.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: I think she was puppeteering you.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: So that's not the end of the story.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, good. Thank God.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: She said, who fucking booked this guy?
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: After you set this all up.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: She doesn't even read asparagus. Why did we book him?
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Who is this guy?
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: You've got to get into the asparamancer.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: The asparamancer. I was doing a little asparamancing in that motel.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: I bet. Okay. So I would say within a couple months,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: maybe over the course of the next year, I started
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: having recurring dreams. And I was traveling, so I eventually
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: went to law school in New Orleans. I was having
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: the dreams there.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Talk about haunted.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Yes. And I did. I lived in like a very
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: haunted house in New Orleans. Okay, good. And it was from,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: it was like a 300-year-old building. But I would have
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: these dreams of a sort of just like figure of
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: a man standing over my bed. It happened, I would say,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: probably at least three, no more than five times.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Do you know about sleep paralysis?
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Not really, no.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Okay. The thing I always say about this is I
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: think that there's definitely a world in which it could
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: be both scientifically explained and paranormal at the same time.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Okay. Like a bisexual. Exactly.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I do think that sleep paralysis is bi. So it's
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: a thing that happens to a lot of people where
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: you freeze and a lot of times you wake up,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: your body can't move, and a lot of times people hallucinate,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: particularly like A male figure or like a guy with
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: a hat on.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Like a demon.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: The hat man.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: The hat man, yeah. Very big.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, demons, you know, whatever.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: You see shit. Yeah. And it could have been that.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: And it was happening at a time in my life
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: when I did have a really bad drinking problem. And
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: I was like really abusing my body and I wasn't
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: sleeping and I was in law school and I was
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: very depressed.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: See, that's all the stuff that a demon is looking for.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of like whatever about my belief
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: in demons.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I think so.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Whatever.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I don't think there's commas. We all think, but I
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: think that darkness is attracted to low frequency, low vibration, like.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: This was definitely like the low frequency moment in my life.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And I was in sort of like the global capital
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: of demonology. I was in New Orleans. Like everything there
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: is so, you just like kind of feel the history
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: when you're walking down the street there. Even if it's
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: just this place that has so much running through it.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: So I kept having those dreams. And I'd been going
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: to acupuncture throughout this period of my life. And it
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: was to help with my anxiety and like these panic
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: attacks and ultimately to help me stop abusing, you know,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: alcohol and pills and stuff. So I'm at acupuncture one
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: day and I got to know her pretty well. Like
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: we were pretty close and I had seen her a
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: bunch and she had never, ever talked about spirits or
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: anything like that. Like it was always one of the
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: more medical cerebral acupuncturists, right? Because there's a lot of
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: woo-woo acupuncture out there. She was a very like logical
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: cerebral person. So she's doing something on me with a needle.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: And she's like, hey, can I just ask you like
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: a weird question? I was like, yeah, sure. I mean,
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: we talked about everything. I mean, I'm in a medical gown.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: You don't have to like ask. Like we're already, it's
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: very intimate. And she's like, have you been having like
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: a weird dream lately? And I was like, well, what
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: do you mean? Because I'm also pretty skeptical. Like I'm
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: not like immediately buying into this stuff. I'm like, what
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: are you talking about? And she's like, is there like
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: a guy that you keep seeing in your dreams? And
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: you know, when you dream, you're sort of half remembering.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: So I would wake up and I wouldn't be like,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: the man was in my dream again. I'd be like,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, okay. And then I'd go get coffee and
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: life would kind of start. It wasn't haunting me through
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: the day. But when she brought that up, it did
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: kind of bring me back to that twilight REM part
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: of my brain activated it. And I was like, oh
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: my God, yeah. I kind of have been having a
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: dream about some guy. She's like, sorry, not to like
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: do this to you, but like he's here right now.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: And I was like, bitch, what?
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Who's paying for his acupuncture?
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Is this a copay? Is he a dependent?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: How does that work? So I was like, could you
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: tell me, what are you talking about? Lauren, her name
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: is Lauren and she's great. Love her. Shout out to Lauren.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay. And she was like, he's talking
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: about you. Like, he's just kind of like talking to me.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Do you mind if I like tell you what he's saying?
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, sure. Bitch, what? Like it
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: was freaky because she had never pulled anything like that.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: So random.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I wasn't out of psychic. It was more of like
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: a medical context. Yeah. So I was just not ready
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: for it. So I was like, sure, let's see where
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: this goes. Crazy lady.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Well, and it's also like, OK, you're smart. You know,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: you know how the body works. You're you're not supposed
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: to believe in this stuff.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Right. Smart. Right. Where the medical issue was, she was
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: like putting the needle in there. She wasn't doing it
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: like on my leg to help with my neck. It
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: was very much a A to B causal person. Logic, right?
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: We're dealing with a very logical person.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden she says, there's an
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: invisible man here. He's talking to you.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: She said, he's right next to you right now.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I would have ripped the needles down. out and ran.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: And I was like, okay. And it's a safe environment.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I felt very safe there. So I didn't run for it.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: And she was like, yeah, he's just kind of like,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: he's this brassy New Yorker guy. He's older. He's like
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: in his 60s.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: He knows you have a type.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Just saying.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: It was the Monopoly man.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: He thought he could get in there maybe.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: He said, pass, go, honey.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: He said, you just haven't met me yet.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: And so she starts to kind of just tell me
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: what he's saying. And she said that he's been following
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: you around for a while now. He's this older guy
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: in his 60s who's a New Yorker. He's kind of
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: got this thick New York accent. And he's just kind
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: of here for you. She's like, he's really right here.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: He's just kind of like yapping while I'm talking to you.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: So she was kind of distracted. And she's like, yeah,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: like this does kind of happen like every now and
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: then someone will just kind of like start talking to her.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: She told me that this has happened a few times
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: in her life where someone comes in like with baggage.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: And she's like, yeah, he's been like in your dreams
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: a little bit. And he just says that he's your guide.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: He's just kind of like here just following you around.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Like if you ever need him, he's like, he's here
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: for you. And that was really it. Like that was
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: the message. I was like, thank you. Yeah. Tell him
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I said thanks.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Were you like, can I have a drink? Or like,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: were you okay with this?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: No. I was just kind of like, this is the
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: weirdest thing that's ever happened to me. And she was like,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: if you don't believe me, just put your arm out
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: like this. I'm not kidding. She said, just put your
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: arm out. What happened? This sounds, you guys have to.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: You have to understand.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: People that listen to this podcast understand.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: They understand that I am not this person. I don't
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: do astrology. I don't care about that. I really am
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: a non-believer. Yeah. But I put my arm out and
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: it truly was at least 10 degrees colder just to
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: my right. And that really, that was for me where
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, this person is not lying. There's
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: no vent. There's no draft. It was the middle of
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: the summer. Like, she's not fucking with me. This person
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: takes Aetna insurance. There's no way.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: I was in New Orleans this past summer. If I
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: had a freezing cold man following me around, that would
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: have been great.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: It's sticky.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: It's... Yeah. Maybe that's why he was there for air conditioning.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: That's sweet. Yeah.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Now, when you were seeing him in your dreams... Did
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: it look like a 60-year-old New Yorker guy?
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: It was just the outline of a person. Oh, okay. Yeah,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: it was just sort of like a shadow figure, which
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: is why, like, I think probably the sleep paralysis is possible, right? Like,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: we can walk and chew gum. We can hold two
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: things in our hand, right? Yeah. Like, it can be both.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: But I just sort of took it as, like, good
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: to know. Like, thanks for letting me know. I never
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: saw him again in a dream.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: He really just, I think, wanted me to know. And
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: then he was like, I'm out. Good luck, honey.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: See, and what I think about with stuff like this
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: is like, okay, we're all going to die one day.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Am I going to be following around a 19-year-old in
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: New Orleans?
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, was it like a Mary Poppins situation? Like he
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: was on to the next twink?
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how does this work?
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, like what are the rules? But
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: he was there. I mean, I abbreviated the conversation, but
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: she did for a little bit. She was like, yeah,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: he's kind of saying this and he's kind of saying that.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: And similar to my dreams, after I left that appointment,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: it kind of got filed away in subconscious. It wasn't
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: like I walked around all day being like, oh, buckle up,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: passenger seat, got my ghost with me. Sure. It was like, oh, okay. Yeah,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: maybe if I'm a little high or if I haven't
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: slept or I'm still in twilight sleep, I'll remember this
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: acupuncture appointment. And I think even for her, I continued
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: to see her for many years after that. She never
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: really brought it up again. Really? I never really brought
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: it up again. We just kind of, like, moved on.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: It seemed like, for her, it was like, oh, I
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: have to read this form before we start. We have
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: to sign the release. It was a little bit like that.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Uh-huh.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Which is why it felt so real, because I wasn't
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: in front of a psychic. I wasn't, you know.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: She wasn't like, okay, that'll be 50 bucks extra.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: She wasn't wearing a turban at the train station with
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: a crystal ball. Right, right. She was like, hey, yeah,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: just like FYI, like this is what's going on. It
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: was part of the treatment plan.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: That's incredible.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: It was really, and I wasn't spooked. Like I thought
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: of my grandfather. I don't know if it was him.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: He never said it was him. But my grandfather did
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: die when I was like nine or ten. And so
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: I never really knew him as an adult. Right. And
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: he was a brassy New Yorker, like an older man
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: in his 60s. Like that's the only person from my
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: life who I know is dead. who could possibly have been,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: I guess like following me around in a, in what
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: was a really dark part of my life. Like to
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: T no T no shade. Like it was really fun,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: but I wasn't dating older guys and like getting into
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: these situations with married men because I was like happy
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: with myself. Right. Right. Because I was like on a
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: path of righteousness. Like I was figuring my shit out
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: in a really messy way. Um, and ended up in
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: a lot of complicated relationships. So I, The notion that
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: my grandfather was like, hey, hon, maybe get your act together.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: That's so sweet. It was kind of cute. I had
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: a messy like early 20s for sure.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Tell me more about that.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm 11 years sober for a reason.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Wow. Congratulations. Thank you.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: But I do think like I got to have some
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: good guardian angels or something.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. There's some someone. Yeah, it's. It sometimes ends up
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: too perfectly, works out so well for it to completely
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: be chance sometimes. Yeah. So that is where I get
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: a little bit hippy-dippy-woo-woo. I get a little in the sauce.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it sometimes does work out in an incredible way.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Like after that, I don't want to say that I
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: left that appointment and I was healed. It was on
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the path. I found the Lord. No.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: But you stored it away and it became a great
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: podcast story years later. You said, I don't know when
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: I'm going to use this, but I will.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've told anyone this story. Really? I don't.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: I really don't. Because, I mean, yeah, most people in
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: my life don't really know me as someone who would
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: really believe in that.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's what makes it so good. Some of
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: these people are like, and then this happened to me.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: You're like. But I will say that the first experience
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: in bed of being twirled.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Do you think that was him or someone else?
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: I think that might have been. That feels like kind
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: of like a messy girl would do that. Like the
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: mean sorority girl who like OD'd in that room. You
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like that doesn't feel like an
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: older gentleman who is going to appear in my dreams
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: and be my guide would be... what, doing a round-off
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: back handspring in the Montauk Motel? Like, that's kind of weird. Like,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: it just doesn't align.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: But also, I think about, like, day one as a ghost, or, like,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: you're new to this.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Day one.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Like, you're new to this assignment, and you're like, what?
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Get ready with me to haunt this diva. Like, yes, honey.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: But it's like, what am I capable of doing? Like,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: can I, like, move some? Oh, I can. That's crazy. Okay,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: now I'm going to try dreams. That'll be fun. You
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: know what I mean?
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Look at this twink. Let me try and turn him
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: over in bed. Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Do people come on and talk about like sex with ghosts?
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Who was it? Was it Anna Nicole Smith or Courtney Love?
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Someone said they banged a ghost.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: All the credible celebrity sources. A lot.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: A lot of celebrities have talked about it. We've only
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: had a few occurrences that have been shared on the show.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: I'm definitely open to more. Interesting. If anybody listening wants
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: to share your story of having sex with a ghost,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: email ghostedbyroz at gmail.com. But the at least two experiences
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: I can think of that have been shared on this
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: show have been very positive.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Because I'm always like, there's like weird consent stuff.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Very positive like they finished.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: And it was otherworldly. From what I heard.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Got your back blown out by a ghost. Damn. Exactly.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: That's hot. Put that in the Grindr bio. Put that.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: That is like your opener. Yeah. Not, hey, you up. Hey,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: I have transcended the realm.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I don't even know where you go from there.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Like back to a sentient being.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: You can't go back to the rabbit toy. No. No.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: What are you going to do? The rosebud toy after that? No.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: But this is.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I don't think so, honey.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: This is what these people say. They say it's great.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: But I'm always asking myself or everyone else, like, there's
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: a weird consent thing here. You know, like, how does...
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: They can't just start... You can't just start fucking me
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: and I can't see you.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: I know. Yeah.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: But there are these experiences people report where they're like, okay,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to go with it.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Do you think that, like.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's what was happening to you in the bed.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Maybe. Maybe. I was freaked out though. So the consent
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: was not there.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: That's the thing.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: I was like, just move me a little bit. I
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: guess for me, we're speaking in hypotheticals now. If a
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: ghost started to move me and I could move and
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: then something freaky started happening, I might explore it. Okay.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Because I have agency. I can move. Right. I couldn't move,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: which is why maybe it was sleep paralysis.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: That's not fair.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like, no. that's not my kink. Yeah.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: No, that's not fair.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Like if I have agency and work, let me explore
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: your other worldly body. Yeah.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: I haven't gotten to the point yet, but there are
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: like blogs you can read that are like, here's how
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: you can. make this happen or like we talk about
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: haunted dolls on this podcast and like there's a lot
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: of them that are like you buy this doll and
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and you'll just start but.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: You're just gonna be sopping yeah slide off your.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Chair i'm not there yet no but you should try
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: it it's coming one day.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: We could would you film it No way. I'm just
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: saying that would do numbers on OnlyFans.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: You would retire early. Yeah, I'm sure people would believe me.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: I'm like.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: It's Gooner 21.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: It's Gooner 21. Spiritual Gooner. Speaking of, let me show
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: you a haunted eBay doll. This is crazy because I'm
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: looking at the time and I thought by now we
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: would have talked about like at least nine other famous
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: cases of ghosts. But we're running out of time.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Let's do whatever you want to do.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: You made this so easy. You know what? No doll
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: this episode. Just because we got you here and you
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: are a legal expert. And I want to know your
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: thoughts on this.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: On the extrajudiciary hauntings of the American justice system.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Okay. Let me just throw some at
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: you here. So this is a big one. New York City.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Early 1990s. Okay. There were real estate developers named Jeffrey
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: and Patrice Stambofsky.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Don't know them.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: They purchased a home in Nyack, New York.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Nyack, that's on Long Island. Okay. Okay.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: And it belonged to Helen Ackley.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: So the Stambofsky's were unaware that the house had a
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: long reputation for being haunted, despite the fact that Ackley
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: had published accounts of the ghostly occurrences three times between
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: 1977 and 1989.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Including once in Reader's Digest. So this lady wanted everyone
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: to know that she's got a haunted house.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: According to Ackley, the house was inhabited by three ghosts,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: a naval lieutenant from the American Revolutionary War and a
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: couple from the 19th century. But Ackley never told the
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Stambovskys about the hauntings. When they discovered the house's history,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: the Stambovskys sued Ackley for fraudulent misrepresentation and asked for
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: the contract to be rescinded. In 1991, the New York
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court heard an appeal of the case. The court
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: ruled that Ackley wasn't liable for damages, but also decided
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: that because a haunting can't be determined by a home inspection,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: the Stambovskys didn't have to honor the contract either. Many
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: people have called this the Ghostbuster ruling.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: OK, let me just like read the fact pattern really quick.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: So I make sure I understand that.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Now, this is something I have talked to like real
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: estate people about where I think they call it like
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: stigmatized property or something where it's like if you buy
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: the house from Breaking Bad, you do have to know
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: that that's like the house from Breaking Bad. You will
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: have people take pictures of it all the time. People
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: know about it. There's going to be people trying to
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: go on your property.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Right. Like the Sex and the City townhouse in New
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: York City right now. There's always tourists lined up out
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: front and the owners get really annoyed and upset because
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: people will like climb over the rope and go up
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: the steps. But with this case, what's interesting is that
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: she was really public and open about how haunted it was.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: She published three articles. So like that's kind of curious
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: to me is like you're not doing your due diligence
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: as a purchaser. of what is going on with this house.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: But this is 1990. You can't just Google the address. Nowadays,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: you can for sure. You just Google the address.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: How did people Google in the 90s? Can we get
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: a fact check on that?
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Wait a second. You're here to answer questions for us.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Sorry. Would they go to the library and just say,
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: can you Google this?
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like microfiche or whatever.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Huh. Yeah, that's scary. Get in the comments and tell us.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Let us know. In 1991, what would you have done
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: to find out if your house was haunted?
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What's like the analog Google?
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: But that's, I don't know whose side I'm on with this.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: I do think, like, girl, you weren't too shy about it.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I think you should probably tell people just so you know.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Fun little fact about this place.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: You don't get to be shy only when it suits
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: your pocketbook.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Like, she was selling all those articles, making her money,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: telling everyone this shit was haunted. Yeah. Trying to get
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: some attention. And now someone finds out in the middle
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: of a purchase. I don't think. And if I was
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: buying a house, putting all that money down, and I
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: found out halfway through that it was haunted, like really
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: haunted by three people, not just one.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: But this is why I ask every apartment I've ever had.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: I say to the landlord, this is going to sound crazy.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: And if you Google me, you're going to see that.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: You'll understand. Has anyone ever died here? Is this place haunted?
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: Are they honest with you?
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: I don't think they have to see.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Literally my current landlord was like, what? And I was like,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: forget it. I'll find out. I'll find out for myself.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: But okay. Interesting. How are you.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Going to conjure a spirit to fuck you if your
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: house isn't haunted?
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Don't ask.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: So there's actually, like there's other cases where like people didn't,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: they weren't told and they found out that it's haunted.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Like that's.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: I would think that's probably more common, maybe.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. Like I know in certain states you have
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: to disclose if someone died in the home.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Right. And it's different, different places. And I think it's
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: like there is like a kind of a statute of limitations.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Yes. If it's like within a certain number of years,
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: someone's died in the house where it's going up for sale,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: they have to disclose.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Because that's kind of my question with this case we
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: just talked about is like, how did they find out.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: It was haunted? This woman was just sort of telling everyone.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: And then. They bought it and halfway through they found out.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Was it the article or were they on a tour
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: and they got tripped? Yeah. Did that couple, were they
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: looking for a third? Like, we don't know what happened
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: with that couple that died in there. How does a
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: couple end up dying in the house, right? Was it
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: at the same time?
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's scary.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Was it a murder suey? Was it like, what happened
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: to that couple?
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: Seriously. Yeah.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: That's spooky dooky. It is. I don't like that. And
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: an old home in Nyack that's haunted by three people.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not buying that. New construction only.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: So this other case in 2005. Great year. 2005.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: I love how you're like the Bush administration. Love.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I will take that. At this point, we didn't
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: know how good we had it.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: People were really thirsting after the good old days of GW.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, he was a little quirky and maybe... He.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Had his little paintings choked on a pretzel once, but like,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Maybe a war criminal, but you know, he was fun.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Other than that.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: So 2005, great music, great movies... The landlords who operated
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: the historic Church Street train station and entertainment complex in Orlando, Florida,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: filed a $ 2. 6 million lawsuit against two restaurant owners who
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: refused to move into the property after learning that it
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: was allegedly haunted.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: So they were trying to get these restaurant owners to
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: open up business in this place. And then they were like, no,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: it's haunted. I don't want to see how they sued him.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I don't understand this.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Let me read it. In 2005, the landlords who operated
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: the Church Street train station complex in Orlando filed a
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: lawsuit against two restaurant owners who were... Okay, so they're
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: just refusing to move into the property because they found
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: out it was allegedly haunted.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: But why would they need to? They must have signed
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: a contract or something, right?
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: So they had some sort of lease or agreement. And
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: then they were like, actually, it's haunted. We don't want
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: to fuck around in that place. According to lawyers for
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: the restaurant owners... The owners were Jehovah Witnesses whose religious
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: beliefs prevented them from having any contact with undead spirits.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: That is a lawyer's argument. Because what the lawyer is
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: doing here is basically invoking the First Amendment and saying
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: that their First Amendment religious beliefs bar them from following
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: through on this contract. Oh, please. This could have been
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: totally made up. I call bullshit.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: So they could have just been like, it's haunted, I swear.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: And it goes against my religion. They just didn't have
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: the money.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Exactly. They just didn't want to go through with it.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: I call bullshit. According to the landlord's attorneys, I asked
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: them if these were good ghosts or bad ghosts. And
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: if they were good ghosts, why it was a problem.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Is that what the person from this website wrote?
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no. That is one of the attorneys.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: That's one of the attorneys.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're good ghosts.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Why do you care?
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: That's opposing counsel.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: That's the argument.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I love Florida. This is great.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Local news sources didn't report on a financial settlement or
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: other resolution for the suit. It's just kind of left hanging.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: No one was even like, this warrants a settlement. No
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: one's even trying.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: This was just, I don't feel like following. through on
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: my lease. I'm just going to say I'm a Jehovah
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: and it's haunted.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: You know, there's, okay, we don't have to get into
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: all these cases, but there are some where it's like
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: people that sued God.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: Or the devil.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Or the devil.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They sued both of them. Didn't go, didn't go anywhere.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: And then another thing that I noticed in some of
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: these stories, because I went to like Various different websites.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Right now I'm just staying at this Ranker website. But
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: there were also cases of people who like through a
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Ouija board contacted someone and then wrote a book with
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: what the ghost told them. And then the family was like,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, we own the rights.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: Even if you got the information through the Ouija board,
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: it's still that person's life rights that you don't have
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: the rights to that you're now writing the book on.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: You can write the book on your experience with the
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: Ouija board.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, can't you just like not say where you
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: got the details from?
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: But then that's actually worse because now you're just stealing
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: that person's story.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Okay. But can you get sued for it?
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You don't have the life rights. You've got to
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: have that person's life rights.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: But I'm not getting– okay. Let's just say hypothetically I
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: conjure up the spirit of Joan Rivers.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: And she starts writing jokes for me.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: And– I don't ever have to tell anyone. And I
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: can just use all these jokes.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's fine. Yeah, but the second you say Joan Rivers.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Joan Rivers wrote that joke.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Melissa is going to be outside your house with a shiv.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, she will.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: There's no world in which a single Joan Rivers joke
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: is being written and told posthumously where Melissa isn't getting
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: a cut. I'll tell you that right now, honey.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait, so let's just do this last one. There
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: is a Mark Twain one that's like that.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, interesting.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: No, tell me more. It's your show. Okay. Direct me.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, so in 1917, two psychic mediums, Emily Grant Hutchings
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: and Lola V. Hayes, published a book that they said
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: was written posthumously. I can never say that word.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: It's okay. It's annoying.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Posthumous.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: That's how I say it, but I mispronounce stuff. I'm
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: from Long Island, so that might.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: Not be right. See, that makes me think of pasta.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: I had really good pasta last night at Jones.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: At Jones?
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in West Hollywood. I had the, it was the
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: spaghetti with meatballs in the skillet. Highly recommend. Okay. Okay,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: back to the story, back to the story.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Costumously. Billion dollar idea. Gee, how you're going to have
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: to cut this. A pasta restaurant. And each pasta dish is...
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I get the recipe from a Ouija board.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Why does she have to cut this?
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Because I don't want anyone stealing this.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: It's a brilliant idea.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Legal advice. Should I keep it in? Because then it
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: makes it sound like I can always come back to this.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: And I can say, I came up with posthumous.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I agree. Yeah.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: This is good.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: I'm not licensed to practice in California, though. So this
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: is for entertainment purposes only.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. Posthumous.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Posthumous.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: Posthumous.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: No, that was just me saying pasta. I just wanted
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: to say pasta.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: What's your favorite kind of pasta? I am completely pansexual
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: when it comes to pasta.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: I'll put anything in my mouth.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: But do you get what I'm saying? So basically, I
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: get the recipes.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, get a recipe from a Ouija board. Make it,
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: sell it at your restaurant called Postumus. That's hot.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: And that's fun because then people can be like, oh,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: I want the Mark Twain rigatoni.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Or they're like, My grandma spoke to you and I
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: want to taste her Puttanesca once more. That's one way
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: to pass down a recipe.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe I shouldn't do Mark Twain because maybe his
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: estate will sue me. So he died in 1910. So
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: this is 1917. So we're only talking seven years.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. The body's not even cold yet.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: So these mediums. They write this novel and they spent
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: two years transcribing it through a Ouija board. That's a
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: long time.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Each letter.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, let the girls make their money. That's a lot.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they committed to the bit.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: So the story is set in a small Missouri town.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Who cares? So Twain and Hutchings.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: The second you said Missouri, you were like, fuck this.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: I don't care. Twain and one of the psychics. They
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: had corresponded 15 years before the book was published, and
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: in one of his letters, Twain made a note to
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: himself that read, Idiot must preserve. So maybe he had
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: pitched the idea of this book.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: While he was still alive? Okay.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: At the time, publishing books that were supposedly written by
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: ghosts was a relatively common phenomenon.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: What? I've never heard of that.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: A New York Times review of the novel noted three
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: similar books were had come to print recently.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, hack.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, however, the year after the book was published, Twain's daughter,
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Kara Clemens, sued Hutchings and Hayes to prevent the book
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: from being published. The two authors agreed to cease publication
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: and destroyed all existing copies.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: They destroyed it?
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: See, now I can understand if you're using the Mark
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Twain name to sell books. That is, yeah, I mean.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: But they got the information from a Ouija board?
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, use that as your hook to get people in
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: to buy the book. Just use Mark Twain's brain. Don't
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: give him credit.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Just use the Ouija board.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: Just use the Ouija board and be like, guys, I
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: made this out of a Ouija board. Doesn't it feel
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: like something Mark Twain would write?
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: I've never done the Ouija board before.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: I didn't know him. I've got big hands.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: I wish we had one. Maybe we should bring one
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: just for fun.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, shit.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: I just looked at the time and since you have
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: to leave, you're very busy. We're just going to have
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: to skip The ghost voices and the haunted doll and
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: all that stuff. We'll do that next time.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: Okay. Please come back. Yeah, I would love that. Yes.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: Tell everybody what you got going on and where they
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: can find you.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: My name's Michael Foote. You can find me on... I
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: sold my soul to the internet a long time ago.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: So I'm on TikTok, Instagram. That's really only where I post.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: And then my Exactly Right Show brief recesses... every Thursday
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: here on Exactly Right and everywhere you get podcasts and
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: we record at the iHeart Studios in New York which
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: is fun so you can listen to it on iHeart
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: as well cool thanks for having me oh my.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: God I'm so happy to meet you oh my god
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: he's so easy to talk to that was super fun
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: we gotta have him back on here because there's definitely
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: more cases that we could cover and make sure you're
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: listening to his podcast Brief Recess a legal podcast Okay,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: that's it for this week. I love you all, both
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: living and dead. But if I didn't ask you to
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: haunt me, don't haunt me.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, bye!
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production. Want to share
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: your paranormal experience on the podcast? I read stories out loud,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: and sometimes I'll even call you. So email me at
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: ghostedbyroz at gmail.com. You can send a DM or voice
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: message to the show's Instagram at ghostedbyroz. Give us a
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: follow while you're there. And follow me, Roz, on Instagram
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: at Roz Hernandez and on TikTok and Twitter at It's
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Roz Hernandez. My senior producer is the startling Jiha Lee.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Associate producer is the alarming Christina Chamberlain. This episode was
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: mixed and sound designed by the eerie Edson Choi. My
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: guest booker is the petrifying Patrick Kottner. My theme music
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: is by the spine-chilling Brendan Lynch Salomon. Artwork by the
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: spooky Vanessa Lilac. Photography by the terrifying Elizabeth Caron. Executive produced...
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: by the chilling Karen Kilgareth, the spooky Georgia Hardstark, and
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: the frightening Danielle Kramer. Listen to Ghosted by Roz Hernandez
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: your podcasts.