Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / AM S2 Ep 1: The Invitation and the Mess

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AM S2 Ep 1: The Invitation and the Mess · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:09
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:12
  passionate about the
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: We both found ourselves entangled in the world of gender ideology,
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: following very different paths to get here.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Through this experience,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
• 0:34
  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:38
  relationship
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: In this first episode of season two,
• 0:47
  Rose and I tell the story again of how we connected and what
• 0:50
  inspired the launch of
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: this podcast.
• 0:52
  We get into some detail here,
• 0:54
  along with a short recap of what we covered in the first season.
• 0:57
  Rose describes some of the distinctives of the Neufeld approach
• 1:00
  and sets the stage
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: for what we hope to cover in season two.
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  We're both just so thrilled and honored to be back and for the
• 1:07
  privilege to connect
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: with our listeners by sharing our passion on these topics.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a long, long time.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to be back.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to be back.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Good to be back.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe we actually hit record.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: But here we are.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Here goes nothing.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  And you and I have continued to meet and work on things for the
• 1:39
  new platform.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I get we can start there.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Just welcome everybody.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Attachment Matters as we launch our season two.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess welcome to Attachment Matters on its own platform.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So something new.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this episode will be publishing from that platform.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that is exciting.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's super exciting.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we have not been talking to you all for many months, it feels like.
• 2:14
  But yes,
• 2:15
  we've been talking together and working hard to get things up
• 2:20
  and running again.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're just super excited to be here.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So tell us about this episode.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So just,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think kind of bringing us back together,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: both the two of us in conversation,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: but also for our listeners,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: just
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  SPEAKER_00: kind of opening up another invitation to join us in these conversations.
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  And I'm hoping for this episode that we're able to kind of go
• 2:52
  back to the beginning
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_00: what brought us together,
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  SPEAKER_00: how we got started.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what we covered in season one.
• 3:02
  So many of you listening to this may have listened to some or
• 3:07
  all of those original episodes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe some of you are new or will be new listening to this.
• 3:14
  So we want to just kind of touch in broad strokes on some of
• 3:18
  where our journey took
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: us a year ago.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then sort of set the stage for where we're hoping to go next.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sounds good.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds good.
• 3:29
  And we thought we might even start by sharing again how you and
• 3:34
  I connected.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And what inspired the launch of Attachment Matters.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that sounds great.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:51
  I had read your pit piece,
• 3:55
  True Believer,
• 3:59
  which made quite the splash,
• 4:02
  it seems like.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  You were coming in with a very different perspective than what
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  most of the pit
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  SPEAKER_01: parents and readers had seen up to that point.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it created, again, quite a stir.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was pretty controversial.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to explain why it was controversial?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it's interesting because from my perspective, I was not...
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: coming in thinking it would be controversial.
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  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I had basically,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: let's see,
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  SPEAKER_00: this was August 2022 when I wrote and published the piece with Pitt.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I had spent the prior year
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  SPEAKER_00: Kind of going through,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  rolling back the social transition of my very young son and
• 5:02
  experiencing like a
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: total breakdown in my former belief system.
• 5:09
  And just kind of,
• 5:10
  yeah,
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  in that process of like taking in a lot of new information.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  And definitely feeling a lot of alarm in that process of really
• 5:22
  letting go of what
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  I thought I knew to be true and how I saw the world and having
• 5:28
  to try to put myself
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: back together again.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I spent a lot of time that year,
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  SPEAKER_00: as many parents do in these sort of situations,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in pursuit of information,
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  SPEAKER_00: just scouring the internet,
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  SPEAKER_00: listening to new podcasts.
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  treading new,
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  you know,
• 5:47
  swimming in new waters that I had never thought I would be
• 5:50
  swimming in.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so as I picked up kind of all of those data points,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: when I wrote the piece,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I want to help shed light on what this was like from the inside.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that really was kind of where the title of the piece came from.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: true believer.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I did know that I had a very unique perspective to share.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: I did know that in writing it,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: but I did not,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I did not realize that there would be controversy.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: It felt like I'm offering this so people can understand what
• 6:33
  more um that's kind of i think i also wanted to share my story
• 6:37
  i wanted to add to
• 6:40
  like i remember this may sound silly but like when pitt
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  published it like i
• 6:45
  actually watched if their followers increase on on twitter like
• 6:51
  i was like i hope
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  this will help build up this platform that that's going to get
• 6:56
  more people in you
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  SPEAKER_00: know that so there was this piece of like
• 7:00
  very much wanting to support this community and wanting
• 7:06
  whatever my story could
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  SPEAKER_00: lend to it,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: increase their reach.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it did.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know why it did?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because it was controversial.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  You know,
• 7:21
  I mean,
• 7:22
  that's why it went viral like it did is because of the controversy.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, you know, so they did benefit from that controversy.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: That platform did.
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  SPEAKER_00: And how would you articulate the controversy?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, what did you see?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So a little bit about.
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  me too and how I ended up being a consumer of the pit content
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  and also had a few
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  SPEAKER_01: articles published there as well.
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  I was the sort of typical mom of the typical,
• 8:02
  what we've come to call ROGD kids.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that is, I think, who made up the majority of the pit audience.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or these parents,
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  SPEAKER_01: you also did a beautiful job of describing the destabilization,
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  SPEAKER_01: even though yours...
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: came about differently than it did for parents in my position,
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  SPEAKER_01: the way it felt,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: like your worldview was crumbling,
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  your foundations were crumbling and we're in pursuit mode and
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  we're trying to make sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to understand it.
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  But at that point,
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  I think we were just trying to understand our own experience.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you came in with this very different experience that for many,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think represented the opposing,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  SPEAKER_01: Approach, view, worldview, worldview, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Or camp.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was threatening.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  Because I think because,
• 9:01
  well,
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  we could have a whole conversation on the because there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that would take us a little off topic today.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think the phrase that comes to me is making sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think is very Neufeldian.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're speaking, you're speaking our language here.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's my MO too,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: we want to make sense that in order to do that,
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  SPEAKER_01: we have to be open to other people's experiences.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have to bring curiosity to the party.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, and, and so what was going on in the comments of that piece was,
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: was very concerning to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: it seemed like you were getting attacked and people were,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: people were doing what they do.
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  SPEAKER_01: They were projecting their discomfort onto you and your story.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, and I just wanted to draw attention to that and to
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: if there was a way for me to help you feel welcome,
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: in this community,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's what I wanted to convey in my comment to you.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you did, you, you, you wrote an amazing comment.
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe someday we'll post that.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's part of our,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: our,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: our sub stack,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: but you wrote an amazing comment and you were,
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  I think what I got from your comment was you actually trying to
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  explain to the
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  SPEAKER_00: audience of the piece,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: many of them,
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  SPEAKER_00: parents of trans identified,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the ROGD parents or even the young adults who,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: But also sort of the culture war onlookers.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: There were also,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  a lot of people in the comments who were just kind of like
• 10:53
  drugged up on that
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  SPEAKER_00: adrenaline of like the culture war,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know.
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  But I believe what you did was really try to facilitate making
• 11:04
  sense of me to this
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  SPEAKER_00: audience because you were in a position where you could do that,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Kind of bridging...
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: my story and perspective,
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  what you saw that I was likely going through in a way that
• 11:20
  those who were maybe
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: more unable to see those pieces could understand it better.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you talked about the idea, there's a word.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is that word?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Not anomia.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Anomy.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Anomy, yeah.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Which...
• 11:40
  If I recall correctly,
• 11:42
  that word stuck with me from my college education.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it was a sociology class that I loved.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't start college until my mid-20s.
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  SPEAKER_01: But when I did, I felt like my world was crashing down, you know?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it was this foundational belief system stuff,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:09
  that was getting rocked in what I was learning at college and
• 12:15
  robbing me of my compass,
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  which is what I think happens when our foundations are messed
• 12:23
  with in this way.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's disorienting and we are left in pursuit,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: trying to recover a compass.
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  SPEAKER_01: Humans need that.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we need a map.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: We need a compass.
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  We need a way to help us make sense of the world and make
• 12:45
  decisions in it.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:49
  And so when we go through something so destabilizing,
• 12:51
  that's what we are challenged then to do.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: We have to find a new way.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you just spoke to that so beautifully in that comment.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And as I remember it,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: you weren't necessarily reaching out to me,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: but you were doing that sort of reaching out to the audience.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, try to have compassion here.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Try to understand what she went through, what she's going through.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then I don't remember if it was in that same.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very touched by that.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it was always also acknowledge the courage that this takes.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 13:25
  if we're going to vilify people who are willing to share their
• 13:30
  story here,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to scare people off.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's not going to help in our,
• 13:37
  what seems to be our endeavor of people understanding us if we
• 13:41
  can't be open to
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: other people's perspectives and experiences.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I remember,
• 13:51
  I don't know if it was in that same comment or in a different
• 13:54
  kind of thread of the
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: comment section where someone was asking about attachment.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember you responded and said,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Gordon Neufeld is one,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: and I remember you brought,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: because I mentioned,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I believe I mentioned something about,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: learning from
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: This Neufeld approach in my piece,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: specifically around like parents,
• 14:18
  that alpha dynamic where parents need to be in the lead and how
• 14:23
  that was causing me
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: this internal dissonance,
• 14:27
  putting my son in the lead of like telling me if he's a boy or
• 14:30
  a girl and how that
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: just didn't match up.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: with what I was learning around attachment from the Neufeld approach.
• 14:37
  And so I think I did speak to that by name,
• 14:41
  you know,
• 14:41
  him by name in the piece.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:45
  the fact that you responded in that comment and spoke to this
• 14:48
  being something you
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: had a background in,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: it was just one of those moments where it was like,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I want to know this person,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: but we didn't connect immediately after.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: That was through a mutual friend.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, exactly.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Who said, hey, you know, you really need to stoke mom.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if she said, like, she wants to talk to you.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: She's interested in connecting with you.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it was it was definitely maybe even almost a year later.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, probably.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I was so excited to discover that she had.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: you two had connected and that she could connect the two of us.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yes.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I carried that,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: your,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: your compassion,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: your articulateness,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: your,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: your,
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: just this gentle articulation of a framework for understanding,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I carried that in my heart.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: It made an impact on me.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you had made an impact on me.
• 15:55
  I had heard you then at that point,
• 15:58
  you know,
• 15:58
  before all I had was true believer.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: But by the time you and I had connected,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: and by the time she connected us,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: I had heard your interviews on gender,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: wider lens,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: and on the big one,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: trigonometry.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Wild.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: It is wild.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: we've actually added this mutual friend to the team.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: She is now our podcast producer, which is very exciting.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: The magical media fairy, Regina.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Regina.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of beautiful.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's beautiful what can be born out of.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know, these excruciating experiences.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: in addition to thanking Regina for connecting us,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to thank you for this invitation,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: because when we first were talking about collaborating,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: you had asked,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: and even that took time.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think we had first talked and then it took maybe like six months,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: nine months to actually see,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: sit down and say, okay, we're going to do this.
• 17:13
  And so I just want to thank you for your invitation to me and
• 17:18
  your patience with it
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: actually coming together.
• 17:23
  And I remember you were first thinking,
• 17:25
  well,
• 17:26
  I just would like to interview you.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll do a short series of interviews.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then it kind of evolved.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it did.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: We were going to keep talking.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: It did,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: and you said something,
• 17:42
  I think it was in the season finale of season one of how these conversations,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: this work we do together permeates,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: it ripples and it affects the way we engage with our own families.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that it has been a lifeline.
• 18:04
  for many of the SMP audience,
• 18:08
  many members of the audience,
• 18:10
  many of those moms who,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: who go back and re-listen to the episodes and take,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: it's just,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: it's just,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: it's such supportive content,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:25
  and for you to bring your wealth of understanding of the
• 18:30
  Neufeld model and to offer
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: it to the community in this way,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm incredibly grateful because it,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: it really does support their experience and gives them something that,
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: to do.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And in a situation that can feel so,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: it's just so demoralizing to feel like there's nothing you can do.
• 18:54
  And so to have something to work on and work toward is so
• 18:58
  hopeful and helpful.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is like an orienting.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the kind of the points on my,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:06
  what are we going to talk about today as we review season one
• 19:09
  and set the stage for
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: season two,
• 19:11
  just like what Neufeld would call like one of the distinctives
• 19:15
  of his approach is
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: this idea of,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: and we covered this a lot in season one,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: was like...
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: this idea of insight,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:26
  instead of focusing on skill and I have to have these skills or
• 19:30
  my child has to,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have to teach my child these skills,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: just taking that step back to I have to learn how to make sense.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you said already.
• 19:42
  And,
• 19:43
  and,
• 19:43
  and,
• 19:43
  and that's through how I see the situation,
• 19:47
  how I see my child,
• 19:49
  how I,
• 19:50
  And then maybe also in that process,
• 19:52
  how I see myself just getting that greater insight.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's actually kind of ironic,
• 19:59
  but awesome to say that this helps give mom something to do
• 20:03
  because it's sort of
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: would seem contradictory because it's like,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: it's about what we see,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: not what we do.
• 20:09
  That's like the mantra,
• 20:10
  the Neufeld mantra,
• 20:11
  you know,
• 20:11
  but it's true because it's
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: It gives me,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: and what I hear you saying,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps,
• 20:19
  is that it's giving a lot of the moms that you work with a way
• 20:24
  to orient and focus.
• 20:27
  Because there is a level of powerlessness that we can't change
• 20:33
  certain outcomes.
• 20:35
  But it does give us a way to change how we show up to whatever
• 20:40
  that reality is.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amazing.
• 20:46
  we'll be exploring in the SMP community in April,
• 20:52
  the idea of changing the channel.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I hear you describing.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: It helps us to shift our focus in a way where we can have some agency.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:04
  And,
• 21:06
  and,
• 21:06
  and takes our focus off of those things that we are so
• 21:10
  powerless over.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you use that word orienting.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's a word I use often.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about a reorientation.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: If we can reorient to what is happening,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: it can feel very different and restore that agency,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: that sense of power,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: because this is something we can actually tend to.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 21:38
  So that seems like a good segue to just sort of kind of go back
• 21:42
  and talk about some
• 21:43
  of kind of the broad themes that we started with as we began
• 21:49
  these conversations together.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: kind of from the very beginning,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: where we started was just with this concept of attachment.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 22:03
  We spent a good amount of time in those initial episodes
• 22:07
  talking about Neufeld's
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: six-stage model of attachment.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 22:13
  this idea of those attachment roots growing deep and nourishing
• 22:18
  the growth of the plant.
• 22:20
  And we also had to kind of give some time to defining
• 22:26
  attachment from the Neufeld approach,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: which is...
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know, is important to really, what do we mean when we say this word?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a loaded word.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: It comes with a lot of cultural baggage.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: It comes with a lot of assumptions,
• 22:41
  whether it's the Buddhist principles of non-attachment or those
• 22:44
  things that for at
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: least for me,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: for many years in my life,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: attachment is bad.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I should work against it.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my poor, you know, semi, you know,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: quasi, you know, Asperger mind.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I, you know, right, wrong.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: I must take everything literally, you know?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So anyways,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: we spent some time,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: we spent some time just talking about what that,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: that word means and the different dimensions of it from the lens of,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: of the Neufeld approach.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And how there's some paradox, I think, in there.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, many, many nuances.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so just remembering,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: through those conversations,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: we had different metaphors,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: to understand attachment through the roots,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: that we want that secure attachment.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: We want,
• 23:47
  instead of trying to push a child to be less attached or to be
• 23:52
  more independent,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: push a child into separation and
• 23:55
  That actually the developmental process or the developmental
• 23:59
  perspective is,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: at least the Neufeld developmental perspective,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: that we want those roots to grow as deep as possible,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: to be as strong as possible.
• 24:09
  And that's actually what frees up the energy of the child or of
• 24:15
  the plant to grow,
• 24:16
  right?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because essentially,
• 24:19
  and we're going to talk about this probably quite a bit in the
• 24:22
  episodes to come,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: the idea is that all growth comes from a place of rest.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if the child is not locked into the constant work of attachment,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: seeking or pursuing that contact and closeness,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: the child can have enough sense of rest to actually grow up,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: to actually mature.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: It brings to mind Maslow's hierarchy a little bit there,
• 24:53
  that those survival needs need to be met first in order to
• 24:59
  reach our full potential.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like that sounds very similar to me.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we did discuss that in season one, how maturity unfolds.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: It cannot be enforced.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a matter of providing the right conditions.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Which is that sense of safety.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Feeling held and secure in the world.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: So looking at that plant analogy,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: we looked at attachment as almost like that womb,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: like an external womb.
• 25:37
  That was another metaphor that we spoke to a bit in season one,
• 25:42
  that even though,
• 25:42
  you know,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: A child is born into the world,
• 25:45
  they still have this need for that womb that can help them to
• 25:51
  continue to develop
• 25:53
  and grow before they kind of break out into becoming more fully
• 25:58
  their own person.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 26:02
  And then the last metaphor that I just want to touch upon is
• 26:05
  just attachment as a hammock.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about that as well, that resting place.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Again,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: like you spoke to just now,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: of security,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: of allowing a child to trust,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: to lean back and be held.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that sometimes for some of us,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: for a multitude of reasons,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: if the hammock,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: the weaving of the hammock is more porous,
• 26:34
  it's going to be more of a challenge for that child or for that
• 26:40
  person to be able
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: to feel that sense of being held,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: that sense of security.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to take more to weave that attachment for them.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:54
  And we also talked about how challenging it can be to provide
• 26:59
  that sense of safety
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: if we don't feel secure ourselves.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: It can be.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea of cascading care.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: That we do need to find
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Ways,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 27:18
  for our own sense of safety and feeling held in order to
• 27:24
  provide that for our children.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: In order to be,
• 27:29
  and this was another big term that we spent a lot of time on in
• 27:33
  season one,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: is alpha,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: a secure alpha.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 27:43
  Stretching ourselves to be that hammock or to cover those holes
• 27:53
  if our child is not
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: easy to get our love to land with.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: no matter what age,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: helps us to really grow into becoming that alpha and providing,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: taking responsibility for providing for those attachment needs to be met.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's such a tricky concept.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oof.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 28:42
  And I would encourage reviewing some season one to learn more
• 28:49
  about what we mean
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: when we say a warm,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: secure alpha who can stretch bigger than.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: and this is where,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: you spoke to this a little while ago,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: but how this,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: having this podcast together,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: having these conversations together has helped each of us.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: just speaking to this and right now,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:18
  I can tell I'm going to do better with my children for the rest
• 29:22
  of the day because
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: it is so hard.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is so hard to maintain that.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: That posture to maintain that confidence,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: to show up with that level of intention,
• 29:42
  it's easy to slip up and we have to forgive ourselves for all
• 29:47
  of our lacks and
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: mistakes and come back the next day and try again.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when things are messy.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Things these days seem to be extra messy.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: that's one of the,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: we've talked about some of the Neufeld-isms,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: one of the things that he always says over and over and over again is,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: we must become agents of attachment in a world that's falling apart.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I really like that.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why I want to do this conversation.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is why I want to do Attachment Matters,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: because for all of the things that feel chaotic,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: unpredictable,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: falling apart,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: at the end of the day,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: this is what we can do exactly like you said.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much we can't do.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: But the way that we can show up to those who we love most in this world,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: we can do something about that.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then that helps us feel more connected and secure in the world.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: It helps us grow up.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: It helps us grow up.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is really a process of growing bigger than.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Bigger than the mess.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And coming into full maturity ourselves.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a process.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one of the things that I just wanted to,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: speak to as we,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: start to embark upon season two is just to remember,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: this is,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: this is for the longterm,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:10
  and whether it's just talking about attachment and focusing
• 32:14
  solely on that,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: talking about alpha or some of these other themes,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 32:19
  And especially as we start our second season and where I'm
• 32:23
  hoping to kind of even
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: take a step back from even that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Zoom out.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: to look at what we could call like Neufeld's more comprehensive approach,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: like his,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: what he would call like the developmental,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: the attachment-based developmental approach,
• 32:49
  like the fuller model that he has developed to look at what
• 32:56
  does it mean for a
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: human being to reach their full potential.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of looking more at the maturation aspect,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: looking more at some of the aspects of vulnerability and adaptation.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: So finding our tears and adapting to the things that we cannot change.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: It is a lot.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: And we kind of,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: what he talks about is like,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: like you said earlier,
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: providing the maps.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so as we go through season two,
• 33:34
  my hope is to sort of roughly follow the trajectory of what on
• 33:39
  the Neufeld
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Institute campus they offer as what's called the Intensive One course.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so anyone who follows along listening to the podcast,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: just know that like every fall,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: the Newfeld Institute offers that course.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's usually offered as with a live component.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: See you every week.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: You'd have contact with the Newfeld faculty who are fantastic.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like we're going to be doing that course of the podcast,
• 34:04
  but my idea is to sort of roughly follow the trajectory of some
• 34:09
  of those concepts
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: to see that bigger picture of like,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: what does it take for the acorn to grow into the oak tree?
• 34:23
  And one of the most kind of precious constructs and takeaways
• 34:30
  from this conversation,
• 34:32
  from this model that he lays out is this concept of
• 34:37
  developmental stuckness.
• 34:41
  Which is one of those things that's like once you see it,
• 34:45
  you see it in everything.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so really trying to see what are the behavioral results,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: what are the emotional results,
• 34:53
  what are the results when potentially from a young age
• 34:58
  something in that maturation
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: process or that...
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: the vulnerability,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: or the adaptation,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: the ability to have to grieve those things we cannot change gets stuck.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can also help us see when we ourselves are stuck.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, absolutely.
• 35:24
  So that's kind of that trajectory that I hope we can go down in
• 35:30
  the coming weeks
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: and months is just laying out some of these maps.
• 35:34
  And I think the reason I brought this up to start talking about
• 35:37
  it was what you said,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: that it's complex,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: it's messy,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: and it takes time.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just to remind myself, all of us, all of you listening, that
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time to integrate these ideas.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time to integrate this perspective.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time to kind of develop that insight and make sense of things.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as always, it's just a reminder to sort of be patient.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're not striving for perfection here.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: We're hoping to gain more understanding.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And patience is so integral to maturity.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: You said it's called the attachment-based developmental model.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Developmental approach.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Developmental approach?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love that because one reason I'm so passionate about this is,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: and it comes back to what you were talking about,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: what we see.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: When the mess is in front of us, what do we see?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I like...
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: I want to encourage a developmental lens over a pathological lens,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: so that the mess isn't wrong.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:01
  You know,
• 37:02
  the mess is information and the mess is important to development.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so what is our relationship to the mess?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Which is the reorientation.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:16
  What he talks about in terms of another distinctive of his
• 37:20
  approach is that it's
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: about explanation rather than diagnoses.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Making sense.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:30
  That like when we when we focus on,
• 37:33
  you know,
• 37:33
  let's say an ADHD diagnosis.
• 37:37
  OK,
• 37:39
  we look at,
• 37:40
  oh,
• 37:40
  does this person or does this child meet the criteria?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Restlessness, impulsiveness, inability to pay attention.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: OK, checkbox, three things.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: OK, now we can say it's the ADHD that, you know, my child is ADHD.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: OK, well, now you start to hear there's this subtle shift to ADHD.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: My child is impulsive because of the ADHD.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: My child is restless because of the ADHD.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: My child is unable to pay attention because of the ADHD.
• 38:16
  We've lost this reality that the diagnosis is a description of
• 38:25
  these symptoms,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: given the symptoms and name.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cluster of behaviors.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's a description.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not the cause.
• 38:36
  And so what he talks about and where I hope we can really do a
• 38:40
  lot of reflecting
• 38:41
  and learning is that this approach is about where's the
• 38:46
  impulsiveness coming from?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't this child pay attention?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: What's underneath it?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: How do we explain the restlessness?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 38:59
  And then we get to that underlying issue where we actually can
• 39:05
  potentially make
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: somewhat of an impact versus just dealing with the symptoms.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to digging into that.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:19
  I think a big part of the work of all of this is examining our
• 39:25
  understanding of
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: causation in so many areas.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, if we want to, what does real change look like?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:48
  all right well welcome back um i don't think they went anywhere
• 39:55
  we'll welcome
• 39:56
  ourselves back yeah so this is our take two of the second half
• 40:04
  of episode one we
• 40:06
  had some recording and editing glitches so we're kind of
• 40:10
  regathering ourselves and
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: hopefully um
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: laying out the second half of our podcast, take two.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Take two,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: and the first half will be reminiscent of our very first episode,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: which,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: had the same editing issues.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we are a work in progress, always.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Always, yes, as humans.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: So in the first half of the podcast,
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: we started to thread together some of what I would call and what Dr.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Gordon Neufeld calls the distinctives of his approach.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so just to sort of reiterate that,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: when I talk about,
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: the Neufeld approach,
• 41:09
  what we're talking about is what he calls the attachment-based
• 41:13
  developmental approach.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's sort of the
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: If we had to call it something, that would be the wordy title.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: And many people just shorten it and say the Neufeld approach.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the distinctives of this approach...
• 41:35
  are that idea of this is about making sense of children,
• 41:39
  making sense of kids.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 41:41
  it doesn't mean that we're not going to have tons of insights
• 41:44
  into ourselves as adults,
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: but that is where he focuses,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: is going back to sort of the beginning and how,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: development and maturation,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: if conditions are conducive,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: how this works.
• 42:00
  should unfold and or what can get in the way of it unfolding so
• 42:04
  it is really about
• 42:05
  you know making sense of of that for children though as we go
• 42:11
  we're going to be
• 42:11
  pulling tons of reflections on on our own selves on our older
• 42:16
  children you know and
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: and our our life trajectory as a whole um
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: And also how to respond when we see developmental stuckness.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: I know we talked about what we see determines what we do.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have to be really careful to notice if we think we're seeing
• 42:40
  developmental stuckness and if that's creating alarm and what
• 42:43
  is going to be an
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: appropriate response in those situations.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that is,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:54
  we spoke to that distinctive already that in this effort to
• 42:59
  make sense of kids,
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: that it is about what we see determines what we do.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so then it's that idea of insight,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: how we see things,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: being more important or even replacing this construct of skills.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: That it's not about parenting skills.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: But rather,
• 43:26
  how do we make sense of what's going on for our child in order
• 43:33
  that we respond to
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: it more productively?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that word, productively.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: So another big distinctive thing.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: is,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:48
  that this approach really looks to see how children can come to
• 43:52
  realize their full potential.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where that developmental aspect really comes in,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: what we would define as the Neufeld definition of developmental,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: that we're
• 44:04
  We're exploring and trying to understand what are the
• 44:08
  components or what are the
• 44:09
  conditions that allow for this child to kind of grow into a
• 44:15
  vibrant adult,
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: a caring adult,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: an adult that is capable of deep relationship,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: an adult who can stand on their own two feet,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: so who is able to be sort of viable.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: and independent while also having intimacy,
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: while also having,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: developed kind of that capacity for attachment,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: that capacity for relationship,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: but not being stuck always in pursuit of closeness.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, having come to this place of
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: having some of those needs being satiated enough that they can,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: grow into that more independent potential.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm going to reflect what you just said.
• 45:08
  I think this is important to reinforce and notice what it is
• 45:12
  not when you were talking about
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Humans realizing their full potential.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the words you used were vibrant,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: caring,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: viable,
• 45:23
  capable of intimacy and deep relationship rather than in
• 45:27
  pursuit of closeness.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: that might not be how a lot of people define potential.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so again, this is about what we see determines what we do.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we are seeing our child falling short of their potential of,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: success or career-wise or,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know what I'm saying,
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: like becoming this exceptional version of something...
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even sure if that I'm saying there is making sense,
• 46:03
  but I just I want to distinguish between these two ideas of
• 46:08
  what potential is and
• 46:09
  what is meant in the Neufeld model when we are talking about
• 46:13
  humans reaching their
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: full potential.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 46:17
  And I am so glad that you spoke to that because what he says is
• 46:21
  it's it's not about
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: talents and gifts.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about behavior.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about intellectual prominence,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: or what you're saying about like that kind of career success.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about social fit or status.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is about this,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: that again,
• 46:41
  that acorn becoming that oak tree and producing fruit and that
• 46:48
  fruit in this very
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: deeply human sense.
• 46:53
  you know is that again that ability to be viable as an
• 47:00
  independent being while also
• 47:02
  existing in loving and caring relationships with those around
• 47:07
  us what a different
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: world you know if we've got more humans
• 47:17
  reaching that potential right and part of that we'll get into
• 47:22
  this a lot more when
• 47:23
  we dive into the integrative process and these components of
• 47:28
  maturation and we did
• 47:30
  definitely speak to this in season one but it's also that
• 47:33
  ability to say on the one
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: hand on the other hand
• 47:38
  that able to being able to mix feelings contrast you know
• 47:44
  perspectives being able
• 47:47
  to again be ourselves consider ourselves and our own needs
• 47:52
  while also considering
• 47:53
  others and that is the fruit of maturation it doesn't start at
• 47:59
  two years old it is
• 48:00
  like what we're growing towards over the span of our lives okay
• 48:03
  well and i just
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: want to dig into that a
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: provide some clarity around what you're saying,
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: because we see this again playing out,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: in the adult world,
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: is this inability to have that complexity,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: to hold that complexity,
• 48:26
  that if somebody doesn't think and believe and hold the same
• 48:29
  values as us,
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: we can't tolerate that.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: And how much conflict that creates.
• 48:40
  And how that is very indicative of the state of maturity among
• 48:46
  the grown-ups in the
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: world right now.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: and that kind of gets to this whole idea of this,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: this developmental approach,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: the Neufeld approach,
• 49:03
  that it is about what does it look like for a child or a person
• 49:08
  to reach their full
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: potential versus what we tend to default into,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: which is like what's normal.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 49:15
  And what you're speaking to there is like if we just measured
• 49:18
  things on the norm,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: we would say,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 49:20
  it's just normal for people to only be in a tribal formation
• 49:24
  and only see their
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: perspective and lock down into camps and battlegrounds.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: and it's like,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: is that a deep and fundamental thread of the human experience?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: But is it the full potential of what we can be as humans?
• 49:43
  No,
• 49:43
  we actually,
• 49:44
  we do have the capacity to hold on the one hand,
• 49:49
  on the other hand.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Some of us reach it and others of us do not, you know.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a judgment, it's just reality.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: this approach,
• 50:05
  what it can offer us is insight into what are the things that
• 50:08
  get in the way of
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: that process.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: What can stop that process from unfolding?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: And how can we help those who we are responsible for?
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: How can we come alongside in the ways that we still can?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: if our children are now grown up,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: how can we still walk alongside and,
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:31
  help to continue to provide conditions that may eventually help
• 50:35
  that maturation to unfold?
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to come back to...
• 50:42
  what this demands of us that that it demands that same
• 50:46
  maturation and i think there
• 50:49
  are lots of words for this um you know and i think at this age
• 50:54
  we're going to be
• 50:54
  invited again to to assess our own level of maturation and to
• 51:01
  discover how to
• 51:02
  transcend right that's the word that came to mind as you were
• 51:05
  describing um
• 51:10
  these normal human experiences or what we see as normal you
• 51:13
  know that there is the
• 51:14
  possibility to and i'm going to use jung's word to transform
• 51:20
  ourselves you know he
• 51:21
  calls it alchemy yeah like to me that's that's when we're fully
• 51:27
  mature is when we
• 51:29
  are transcending what we have come to believe is normal human
• 51:33
  behavior and
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:38
  And I'm so glad that you mentioned Jung because I want to speak
• 51:42
  to that as well in
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: terms of another distinctive of the Neufeld approach,
• 51:47
  that what he has done in his body of work is what he calls a
• 51:55
  process of synthesis
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: and distillation.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so what he has committed,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: 40 plus years to is looking at all of these foundational,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's theorists or thinkers,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: writers,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: even,
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: the scientific research,
• 52:20
  whether it's kind of the older research where some of these
• 52:23
  initial attachment
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: theories were born out of,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: you
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: In the Intensive One course,
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: he dedicates,
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:33
  just multiple slides to these puzzle pieces of all these
• 52:37
  different theorists and
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: thinkers and,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: what would I call it,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: research,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: bodies of research,
• 52:47
  from which he has taken these puzzle pieces and put them
• 52:50
  together to synthesize and
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: get to what he calls getting to the essence of.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:58
  these concepts within his model oh my goodness this gets me so
• 53:01
  excited absolutely
• 53:05
  yes that's that is something that truly brings me alive is to
• 53:10
  see where the
• 53:10
  different frameworks overlap and support each other and there
• 53:16
  is so much I'm going
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: to use Jung again archetypal
• 53:23
  information here universal you know that has been described and
• 53:27
  explained before um
• 53:29
  and i hear what you're saying he's trying to synthesize it all
• 53:32
  into a very robust
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: scientific model yeah that explains the human experience
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: And how to reach our full potential and how to foster that in others.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's what always kind of humbles me.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: is that you can take all of those,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: what he would call like the dots,
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: all of these dots.
• 54:07
  And what his approach is,
• 54:08
  is to join them together so that a picture emerges.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: And what humbles me is that
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: out of all of that,
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: what would be perceived as complexity or almost like,
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:24
  what he talks about with some of these like developmentalists
• 54:26
  from Europe is like
• 54:27
  they become very esoteric and there's language that just isn't understandable.
• 54:31
  And so that's part of one of his distinctives of his approach
• 54:35
  is he wants to use
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: language and metaphors that can land with anyone,
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: That don't make him off in this ivory tower of like,
• 54:50
  not being able to be understood and so um anyways what humbles
• 54:54
  me is that like you
• 54:55
  put all these pieces together and often where we end up is
• 54:59
  something so simple and
• 55:07
  so and accessible yes yes and that and this is the thing that's
• 55:13
  like amazing all of
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: us can do it yes because that's the human potential
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't cost money.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to defer to experts.
• 55:28
  And it's not that,
• 55:29
  you know,
• 55:29
  like,
• 55:29
  my gosh,
• 55:29
  where would I be without this body of work?
• 55:32
  So clearly it's like people who synthesize and offer us tools
• 55:36
  and frameworks play
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: such a critical role.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: But when we come at the end of the day.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: without having to have fancy,
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: a fancy job,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: a luxury car,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: a PhD,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: I am able to show up to my family in a way that can make,
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: tend that soil and help those conditions be cultivated for my children,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: for my relationship to be healthy and thrive.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: It does sound like it happens in relationship,
• 56:22
  that that is a key element to this maturity is feeling held and
• 56:28
  seen and safe in relationship.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, so we'll be diving into this as we go.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: But just to lay out,
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: what he calls the three keys to reaching our full potential as humans,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: he lays them out as maturation.
• 56:51
  Which could be defined,
• 56:52
  one definition would be freedom from impediments.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to get much more into that in the next sessions.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first key.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: The second, vulnerability, which would be freedom from defendedness.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: The soft heart.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: The soft heart.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then attachment, which we dedicated a lot of time to in season one.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to continue to dedicate.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just woven throughout.
• 57:22
  I think it's almost impossible to have a conversation without
• 57:26
  talking about it
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: because it is so...
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's everything.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's the water we swim in.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: If we were fish, we'd be swimming in this water of attachment.
• 57:38
  And the way that he describes that as a freedom is this freedom
• 57:43
  from the pursuit of proximity.
• 57:48
  And so it's like when we have developed that fuller capacity
• 57:51
  for attachment is when
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: we're paradoxically freed from being enslaved to it.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: So so that's you know,
• 58:08
  those are those the three key concepts that we're going to be
• 58:11
  working out through
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: our upcoming episodes.
• 58:15
  And a couple more thoughts before,
• 58:18
  you know,
• 58:18
  just kind of ending this one.
• 58:22
  that another distinctive is that what Neufeld is hoping to
• 58:27
  share through this model
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: is a map or maps.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: If we're talking about these three concepts,
• 58:33
  and this brings us kind of back around to where we started in
• 58:36
  this conversation,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: that it's not about methods,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: like teaching a method.
• 58:40
  Okay,
• 58:40
  when this happens,
• 58:41
  you do this,
• 58:42
  and this is how you practice this method.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: But it's rather like giving us these maps for navigating.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, we, like you said at the beginning, we are the agents.
• 58:58
  We are building our own ability to see the juncture we're at
• 59:06
  and then make a choice.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: Which way are we going to go?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: How are we going to find our way?
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: What am I going to try?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: How did it go?
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: What do I see now?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're developing that internal resource.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, beautiful.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: that's what I was just going to bring us to with that,
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: with the maps,
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: is it's really about learning to tune in and learning what to do with the
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: information that's coming from,
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: that's coming alive in us as we are engaging in the world.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: So just the very last thought that I want to end with in terms of these
• 59:48
  distinctives is going back to the synthesis and the
• 59:52
  distillation and bringing these
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: dots together so a fuller picture can emerge.
• 59:58
  Neufeld always talks about this story of the blind sages and
• 1:00:06
  how each one of them
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: is touching a different part of an elephant.
• 1:00:12
  And so each of them have developed this incredible wisdom and
• 1:00:16
  expertise in the
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: trunk of the elephant or the foot or the tusk or the tail,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: but they can't see the full elephant.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: this attachment based developmental model seeks to give us the elephant,
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: the work that he's done over these 40 years and that his,
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: the Neufeld Institute carries out through their courses and all of what,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: I have been so blessed to like learn from and be shaped by is,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: trying to put each of those components together.
• 1:00:53
  together into into the elephant into this full picture this
• 1:00:58
  fuller picture and i
• 1:01:00
  think you know just on the day-to-day if i'm listening to
• 1:01:03
  podcasts or you know
• 1:01:05
  conversations what's going on with society what's going on with
• 1:01:08
  this phenomenon you
• 1:01:09
  know there's just so many times where i feel like i just find
• 1:01:12
  myself like wanting
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: to yell and you know scream into the wind like
• 1:01:17
  See the elephant,
• 1:01:17
  see the elephant,
• 1:01:18
  this is attachment,
• 1:01:19
  this is attachment,
• 1:01:20
  you know.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: These are this,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: but it's the water that here we are as fish,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: we're just swimming and it's so often it's invisible to us.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: We can see one piece,
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: one,
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: component,
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: and we see them distinctly,
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: but it's like this bigger picture that unites them all together.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the full, messy human experience.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you, listeners, for making it this far with us.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're excited to be back.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was just going to say that.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: I, for one, I am super excited to be back.
• 1:02:11
  super excited to be launching you know a Substack for attachment
• 1:02:14
  matters we invite
• 1:02:15
  all of you to subscribe whether it's as free or paid
• 1:02:18
  subscribers and we're hoping
• 1:02:21
  to really start rolling out some additional resources and
• 1:02:24
  reflections to accompany
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: the podcast which will start off as being for everybody and then you know
• 1:02:30
  potentially eventually be you know sort of a perk of being a
• 1:02:34
  paid subscriber but
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: we're just excited to
• 1:02:37
  excited to get back in it and start this new chapter yeah and
• 1:02:42
  build this out and
• 1:02:43
  offer support for for parents who are who are recognizing
• 1:02:50
  current ways aren't
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: working
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:02:53
  and they're looking for resources to support their experience
• 1:02:58
  and their relationships.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think at the very end here,
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to say again,
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: my hope is to to humbly offer.
• 1:03:11
  you know the insights that I have gained in service you know
• 1:03:17
  not in a spirit of
• 1:03:18
  coercion you should do this you you know this is how you should
• 1:03:21
  be you should you
• 1:03:23
  know but rather just here is what I can offer from my heart
• 1:03:27
  from my my own
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: synthesis my own stories um and
• 1:03:35
  And in saying that,
• 1:03:37
  I spoke to thanking you at the very beginning for your
• 1:03:40
  invitation to me.
• 1:03:41
  And I just want to thank our listeners for accepting this invitation,
• 1:03:47
  but also for inviting us.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because as you listen,
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: if you've made it to the end here,
• 1:03:54
  you've extended us the invitation to hear what we're sharing
• 1:03:58
  and take it into your hearts.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just want to thank you for that.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:04:12
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:04:15
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget that as a paid subscriber,
• 1:04:18
  you have access to more resources and can help us to shape the conversation.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: As always,
• 1:04:24
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:04:27
  comments and hope you
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.