Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 197: Cathleen Santoso: Being Good Enough to Go Pro, But Choosing Something Else

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197: Cathleen Santoso: Being Good Enough to Go Pro, But Choosing Something Else · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I had like a lot a lot of great things going my way.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember getting a call from one of the high performance leads here in Australia.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, hey, got some extra funding for you, but you have to play in the States.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a desire to play in Europe because I thought, hey, if I'm going to turn pro and compete, I might as well do it in a fun place.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so unfortunately, it's not the best, like it's a secondary tour to the one in the States.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they said, hey, you'd only get this funding if you wanted to compete here in the US.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember hanging up and being neutral and not excited.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it was at that point where I just made up my mind where I said, nope, it's not for me.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to turn pro.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you beyond the game?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ryan Gonzalez.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I became a professional footballer at 16 and eventually had to answer that myself.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is Career Cloud with Athletes from Second Wind Academy, a show about career transition.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: This season I'm sitting down with athletes still competing.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Athletes years out, and the sports psychologists, coaches and practitioners who guide them.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: We get into the decisions, the identity, and the practical work of building what comes next.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Athletes hit this earlier than most people.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: But what they learn works for anybody.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode, a story, and where it goes from there.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Fondly waited session, I dare say, but I will formally welcome you to the Check and Win Academy podcast, all about career clarity.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm interested in in our conversation, mainly because I think your sporting background I found quite interesting.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then what you've moved into afterwards, I think resonates on so many different levels that I look forward to see what, if any, intentional decisions were made during this journey, versus how much of it was just following the slope and figuring out your path.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: But hey, Kathleen, welcome to the show.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is great to have you on here today.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me, Ryan.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to share more about my journey and how I can potentially help other athletes out when it comes to discovering their interests outside of sport and going through the inevitable period of transition to life after sports.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for taking the time out.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, Kathleen, for those of us that don't know you very well, please tell us who you are and what you're up to nowadays.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually in transition between two jobs.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Probably by the time this podcast comes out, I will have started at my new role, which will be a client director at Slick Creative Agency.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And in short, what that role essentially is is being a liaison between our creative team and our clients and working on really innovative and front-cutting-edge technology projects that are really pushing the boundaries of creativity.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I'm heading towards.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But where I have been, and what a lot of people have known me to be in the role of the past couple of years was at Athletic Ventures.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a really unique business and community of over 550 athletes across 25 different sporting codes coming together to invest in startups and private companies.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the ones we may know include Canva, Heaps Normal, Who Gives a Crap, Air Wallops, Blows.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And those are just a few of many companies that we've invested in and proudly founded by two Aussie founders that are ex-athletes themselves, Matt DeBore, or actually our other co-founder, Matt Deliadova, he still plays at the Sydney King.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't say he's he's an ex-athlete.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's very much so still a current one and an absolute hustle.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be don't be a nound retirement before he's like, whoa, hey, hey, hey, not yet.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, not yet.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is that is wonderful.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you, you know, capturing you right now in the midst of a career shift is actually um quite cool.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So probably something I'm I'm gonna love to come.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, do you know what I don't want to I don't want to wait for that?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: What what's made you want to shift role?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, it was really taking a step back to reflect on where I want to head towards, both in my personal life and professional career, and not just looking at next month or next year, but looking at three to five year horizon.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And there are so many different variables and factors to consider um whether that's wanting to raise a family, looking at remuneration, how much does life actually cost, and how are you compensated?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Big one in startup world is cash versus equity.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's then also asking yourself what kinds of skill sets and knowledge buckets do I want to fill and learn more of so that I can head towards a particular kind of role that I might want to be at in five to 10 years' time.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so putting that all together, there are a few key things I was really considering in my next chapter.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: The big one was being part of a bigger team and organization.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've taken a lot of things from zero to one and been part of small founding teams in the last four to five years.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And there is um great effort and joy in being able to build something from scratch, but I have really missed being part of a greater team to collaborate with.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so in my previous role at AV, all our functions were quite autonomous and siloed.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um we would collaborate, but not necessarily cross-collaborate at level and intensity that I was really craving for.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a big thing to consider in moving into my next role in terms of knowledge and skill set buckets to fill.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I really wanted to stay in sports somehow, way, shape, or form.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: I also really wanted to go back into the creative space and really flex the partnerships aspect, but being the conduit between like a creative or a brand and a brand or a client and a team.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, the concept of partnerships is fantastic because you're trying to find a win-win for both sides.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: I've executed a lot.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And while I'm great at that, that's not something that really fires me up.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love being able to take a vision and find a way to implement that by gathering the right different resources and people to bring something to life.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, those are just a few things there.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, also um wanting to start a family in a few years' time.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So optimizing for cash over, say, equity or a commission-based structure.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's on a very logical and practic or practical level.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: But all of those themes combined led me to having tens and twenties, like a lot of coffee shops in the last six months to figure out what possibly is next.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's that is quite amazing.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you've really taken the full, I'm gonna say, wheel of considerations in making um probably more than just a career decision, but making that life decision and thinking, like you say, about some of the hygiene parts around benefit or income, but then moving towards some of the social, the uh psychological, the um indeed in career, the learning parts, you've you sort of covered that full wheel and that that that spectrum.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I was going to ask, how did you figure out what that next step is?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you suggested it there in terms of the coffees, that the coffee catch-ups, which really, you know, we use it as a shorthand, but it's sitting down, actually.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you tell me, what do you mean by those coffees?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: What what were you what types of individuals did you meet and what were you looking for?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'll take it a step backwards before I answer that question.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, when I think about potentially what next or what I'm looking for in a future role, um, one of the first, one of my mentors that I first met when I moved back to Australia, who funnily enough is actually my new boss and who I'm working with in this next role, she had told me that when you're looking for something, trying to try and bring three overlapping circles together.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And when you find if and when you have two of the three, it's generally a thumbs up.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have all three, then it's amazing.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And those three aspects are the first one is something to work at a place or service or product that you're passionate about.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another thing is a matching skill set based on where you've been and what you want to contribute, and something that will help grow and stretch you.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the fourth circle I've added to that is considering the team and who you'll be working with, because I think that's really important.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes you can't always gauge that beforehand.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, oftentimes, as much as they're interviewing you, you can also interview the company in which you're potentially wanting to work at.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so with that in mind and reflecting on uh where it is that I might want to head towards, when I have these coffee catch-ups, they're generally people in industries or potential companies that I think I would be interested working in.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's me interviewing them, what their day-to-day is like, so that I can get a sense of their role, the culture, and what the company actually does.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then equally, it's like, hey, if there's a match here and there's a potential role opening up in the next few months, can you please let me know?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to be considered.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes it's a mix of timing, of being able to land on a role.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Other times it's just knowing somebody and perhaps it's matching, it is matching skill set, and there's a perfect fit that just slips in naturally.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: How long were you having this conversation?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Since early on this year, like February, I started reaching out to more of my close inner circle of people that I trusted.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then actually I was in a really fortunate position to be able to let my bosses know at Athletic Ventures, Matt and Zale, that I was potentially looking for something else.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a really hard conversation and not a common one that you actually have with your current boss to be like, hey, I actually think my growth and evolution at this company has reached a ceiling.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And how can we be honest and transparent about this?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Which when I play it back out now, I'm I'm so lucky that I've cultivated that relationship with them.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not always the case for people.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's taken me, I would say, six months.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Of those conversations, of which one of those conversations was the freedom to open up to your bosses and tell them, hey, I I think my time's done here.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thousand questions to ask, but let me try and whittle that down to maybe three on that piece.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: How did you feel the night before that conversation?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was freaking out, thinking about all the worst case scenarios, but at the same time trusted that if I acted with honesty and integrity, that equally I know my boss has such high EQ that and a lot of kindness as well.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully that he would be receptive to it.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, then legally, I think he has fired me.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of what I felt.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: But that's good.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: But rather than the legality side, still fair, but the coming back, I guess so people in many countries who are listening to this and watching, so they may be like, oh, they can do that here.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: But but the bit that's most important is you felt acting with that, you said honesty, that integrity.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Then you also just referenced on knowing your knowing that he would have a high EQ.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it'd have a bit of emotional intelligence to be able to read the room and be able to manage that.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So my next question is, how did they react at the time, like in the room, as you were telling them?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it was completely expected.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think it he straightaway thought about how we could make the current situation A V work, like whether it's bringing on another team member or just really asking me if there's anything else that that can happen at the current environment and company to actually make it work for me.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so once we stress tested all those different ideas and pathways, we just came to a conclusion, or I I sh I should say I came to a conclusion that there just wasn't a fit anymore and that I would still work as hard as I could till the last day and be able to honor my my presence and role there.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I, as a leader, I practiced that as well.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've had, after my football career, I've probably spent oh 25, 20 odd years in in services.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things I always, I guess, promise to my team members has been that I will help them to find a better job.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they'll find a better job with my help than without my help.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things my role when they're working for me is for me to give them that stretch, to give them the push, to give them the development.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much a lot of those overlapping elements that you spoke about before, with a view that if we can no longer make that work in in the team environment that I can that I have control of, then we would look broader and hopefully, because of who I am, my network would be able to help them bounce around and and move into different things as well.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so to hear that e even if that wasn't expected at AV at the time, that's something that you had naturally cultivated, and that's something that they're aware of, um, or they now are aware of and were able to support you.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's absolutely, absolutely brilliant.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, personally I've probably had, well, not probably, I know I've had one person resign um without telling me that they were looking at at the time, but then but I would say for pretty much the other, I don't know, dozens, it's been I will work together if if I I can't make it work.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really nice to hear that you had you've had that positive experience and um and since then you've you've followed what I would consider a you know pitch perfect um route for finding out what's next.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so definitely, definitely wish you the best for that next piece that comes.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um but look, Kathleen, I want to go back a bit as well, because this has been already super helpful.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I'm I'm just not going, hold on, hold on.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is career clarity from the perspective of elite athletes who have transitioned.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I do need to take it back because everyone's like, we've just got we're just having a great chat.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: So let's have that little bit of context, but and I think that will that will come through.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So from a sporting perspective, I guess do a bit of a pricey uh in in some respects.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: But sport for you growing up, was it a multitude of sports or did you or were you specializing quite early?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sports has always been a big part of my life since I was a young girl.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I played Saturday sports in junior school and high school.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Every single term it would be a different one and be something I'd look forward to every single week, whether that's practice or actually competing on the weekends.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say when I was around 12, 11, I found golf and well, golf found me.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: My dad helped help me there.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a sport I was able to channel all my energy and passion and time into, and was really fortunate enough to have represented New South Wales and Australia and went to college in the States at the University of Oregon.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that was truly an incredible four-year experience for me and commit competing amongst the best players in, I wouldn't say just the US, but the world.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I've also traveled the the globe, many different countries to to play golf and just really feel grateful for the opportunity that the sport has provided me from such a young age.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's been um even the snippets that we've spoken about for you, the way you've seen golf has been more than just a sport, but it just seems to have opened you up to different um cultures, different personalities, different opportunities.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: But whilst you can reflect on that, at what point did you start to realize you were good?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: There was something special about you playing golf.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: You thought, hey, I think I'm good at this.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think I knew that very early on.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was switched on and dialed in.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: When I went to the driving range, I just remembered that, hey, I'm picking this sport for a few reasons.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And when I talk about this, I can't believe I was thinking about this when I was 11.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I can actually put words to how I was feeling then, which was one, it's a sport that you can play till you're 60 or 70 as a career.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So there was longevity.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Two, you can actually make money out of it.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: I saw Tiger Woods sign like a hundred million dollar contract with Nike at this time.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And three, I always thought you had to start when you were five to be amazing at something.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I saw another female golfer at the driving range who was 16 and only and was number one in the state, who had only started when she was 11.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of those three factors combined just made me feel as if I could make something out of this.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And from the minute I decided that I'm gonna focus all my attention into golf, I had actually won a lot of different, I would say, tournaments at a junior level within my first year that kind of solidified my thinking of, hey, I can actually pursue this as something more than a social or a school competitive kind of sport.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, all right, I can actually make a living out of this.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, that was a I would say quite early on, I I knew that I could continue.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you talk about putting all your effort into it, what did that mean you were cutting out?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose I'm starting with.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: So what happened to you from a study persp a studying perspective?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't cut out a lot, it was more just being able to hone in and focus on something throughout my whole career from junior like from high school to college.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I had always prioritized study and seeing friends just as much as performing and delivering excellence in my sport.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I think I could have been way better at golf, but then I'm also like how grateful.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think about the friendships and the study and the skill sets that I learned there at the same time of trying to play at an elite level.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I guess what I'm trying to say there is I was able to play a balance, if that's a word that people like to use.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I knew how to prioritize golf when I needed to, whether that was coming home from a friend's birthday dinner at 9 p.m.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: because I knew I had practice the next day, or knowing to focus on this tournament, or I have exams for school next week.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just gonna take time off golf for these two weeks.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I've just been able to prioritize that well.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's my own metric, metric of success.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a subjective thing.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel it's because of my parents that they they had always guided me as opposed to pushing or forcing me towards one way or the other.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel really lucky that my dad was able to set a great example there as to how to not just be great at your sport, but how to show up for your friends, your family at school and just to be a good human.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Good lessons.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Good lessons being taught by, I guess, well, as someone who introduced you to the sport, but then clearly had a guiding factor on how you developed uh as an adult as well.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: When you then think of Absolutely.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Did you as you really consider the next steps for you as a junior athlete?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: What was it that I guess where did you want to get to?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: What was what was your aspiration?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: What was my end goal?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I wanted to turn pro and play on the LPGA tour in the States.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually always thought I'd retire early and be a mum and actually get into business.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess I um I am on still on that track, just different kind different sense of timeline.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I that the end goal was to turn pro, but and I had the chance and opportunity to do that at the end of college, but I actually took a proactive choice not to.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that was probably the most challenging point in my career.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was quite the it was quite literally the end and challenging decision, like my first big decision that I made myself for me.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why was it the first decision you made to be yourself?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you made the decision to move to Cotton, move to the US, do college as the as the route to do that.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: How was that experience for you?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was the most memorable four years of my life, and I think taught me so much that I couldn't have learned any other way to go to a place by yourself in a foreign country and have to pay your own rent, manage your own money, feed yourself, and still show up at at school and golf.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's no other system that exists like that in the world, except a collegiate system in the US, where you're you where you're studying, playing at at such a high level and having to take care of yourself to a degree all in one go.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And because of that, I have just grown.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Grown into an adult, you could say, and was able to really find myself through that whole process.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess that was a big decision going there.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I proactively chose that myself.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Not turning pro, I would say, is the big decision in terms of say things that are completely that would be so unexpected for people to hear.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like going against the grave.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let's jump to that point.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: What were the options laid out for you?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately two is tied.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's time for it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life activities for it.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: It might be a retiring, injury, or they need to juggle your careers between sport and a job.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy innovation, and now life coach career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to help those around me find their career secondwith.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I had received some funding from both New South Wales and Australia that said, hey, we'll support you going through Q school or qualifying school to essentially get your tour card to the LPGA.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I had some other commercial brand sponsors that would support me with free product.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And until I got my card, that's when you could start negotiating contracts.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I had like a lot, a lot of great things going my way.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember getting a call from one of the high performance leads here in Australia.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, hey, got some extra funding for you, but you have to play in the States.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a desire to play in Europe because I thought, hey, if I'm going to turn pro and compete, I might as well do it in a fun place.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so unfortunately, it's not the best, like it's a secondary tour to the one in the States.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they said, hey, you'd only get this funding if you wanted to compete here in the US.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember hanging up and being neutral and not excited.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was at that point where I just made up my mind where I said, nope, it's not for me.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to turn pro.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I had been going back and forth for six months prior to that.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: That call was like the defining moment for me to just say, no, I don't want to turn pro.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: The only reason I'd be turning pro is to let other people know.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And fortunately, I knew what else I wanted to do.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: I, besides studying, I had done an internship the previous summer and I had experienced what working would be like.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And without that, I don't think I would have had the same amount of courage to be like, all right, no.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: So a few options for you in terms of continuing the in the golf career at various levels and various funding elements.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: An opportunity then to, I guess, to do nothing.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: But uh the bit I just want to understand is you said you'd be turning you didn't want to turn pro, you'd be only turning pro for somebody, for someone else.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean by that?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what everyone expected from me.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I almost expected that from myself.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: I never actually came into question is this what I actually want to be doing?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the traditional linear path and a goal I had set out since I was 11 when I started playing golf.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought that perhaps that I wanted to do something else.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I never even experienced that until the last couple of years of my college years, where I was able to practically apply the things that I learned in my degree in an environment of my internship.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: So because of that, I was like, hey, yeah, this is actually something I love.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't realize that I could love something other than golf.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't realize an identity could exist outside of golf.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So and it was fun and it was enjoyable.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought I can also make money from this and support myself this way.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I had so many different thoughts there in terms of passion, joy, like learning, being stimulated, and also making money to support support myself.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So turning pros different than playing collegiate golf because you have to fund yourself.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: You do everything yourself, and you're not part of a team anymore.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just I just weighed all the pros and cons there and made the decision.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the toughest thing for me in that moment was letting my dad know because it was much as his dream as it was mine, but everything and everyone else I could I couldn't.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Couldn't we just done it for a year?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Just give it a shot, see what happens.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, that's literally what everyone said, including my dad.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Yeah, but I could also start my career in a different place where I like I knew I wanted to do something else.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what's really different to many other athletes.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know what else they might want to do.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me then what were you studying?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was studying advertising and I minor did business.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So really, really the creative and marketing aspect in a lens is what I was studying.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful, wonderful.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm biased.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I studied marketing, um, hence, yeah, a minor inference.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: But that, you know, that's what got me got to go out there and talk and sell and do all sorts, well, not sell, position.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: So then what were your internships?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because and you know, this is through college.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing the internships were structured through there.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: So what's wonderful, what's really insightful in what you said is you kind of had you went and you had fun, you enjoyed it.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm interested in what were the what were those internships?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I had one internship and it was at Nike headquarters.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So probably not the greatest baseline for people.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is great.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: I can find around campus, I can work out during lunch, I go to the Nike store and get 50% off.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's food on campus.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's like a mini college in a way.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, no, so University of Oregon, the founders of Nike came from there.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have like a strong affiliation.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there are over 10,000 applicants, but only 200 people can actually join the summer internship.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the reason why I got in was I took advantage of being an a student athlete.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, being an athlete, rightly or wrongly, we have unfair advantage and access to things.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about how we actually maximize and leverage them.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I did when I was at a student athlete at Oregon.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: So essentially there are 10 Nike schools that have a student athlete's bot from each that can be part of the summer intern.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so naturally, my pool went from 10,000 candidates to I would say like 50 at my school that would actually apply, or however many there.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was fortunate to be the one.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I remember getting a call.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was so excited, and three months there just exposed to how they think outside the box and how they not just create products, but market them, speak to different ideal customers, and just the way they told stories visually and with words.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I couldn't believe it.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I got so excited by it.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And again, three months there, had a bunch of different coffee catch-ups again to understand what people actually did in there.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I could just see myself being here and having so much fun and doing great work amongst awesome people being in sport all at the same time.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that internship kind of just really, really shook my boat a bit and changed my life in a way.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Pivotal moment.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: It really did.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: It it just it just makes me think about oh my gosh, when I get student interns, how do I live up to that?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have to get them to ride the bikes.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Bring your bike in, it's fine.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'll feed you.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: What an amazing opportunity.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it was.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm absorbing it as well.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking, well, what a life-changing opportunity, as you said, that that literally changed the trajectory of your dreams, right?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: And but not only that, it sort of opened you up to who you could be, or right, or at least the route to getting there.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because as you said early on, you always had this view of becoming a pro-athlete, being on the circuit, but perhaps relative retireing relatively early, or making the decision to retire early because you saw there were other things that you would want to go and do.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what this did, this wonderful experience, it kind of accelerated that thinking.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: It like you say, accelerated that journey.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I get that why your decision at that time was difficult not to turn pro, but I get a sense the most difficult part of that was telling other people rather than yourself.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Almost crafting.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: I had a pitch at a spiel whenever people asked me, oh, why aren't you turning pro, or the response to, you know, you're good enough, just do it for a year or two, and just letting them know that I have made a decision, to respect it, and to also believe and trust that I have been taught, raised, nurtured, and mentored to make decisions that are right for me in that moment.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a big thing I told I kept telling my dad.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Hey, just trust me.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have really instilled me with different values and ways of looking at life, and trust that you've raised someone that can make decisions with judgment and discernment.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that it's for for me and actually not for anyone else.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: What was the reaction you got?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not just from your dad, I just mean from your community.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think initial shock, then people got over it.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody cares.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody cares.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it it's been a great, I think it's because of the way I approached it as well.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Expressed so much gratitude for how much the sport has given me.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think anyone can rebut that.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, great, we get a free education out of it, you got to travel the world, you got to develop so many different characteristics and traits that can only be developed through playing sport at that particular level.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I guess people are initially shocked, but then they kind of have to join my bandwagon of being grateful.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I ask it in that way because I know many athletes struggle with that.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: They struggle with this sense of feeling like they're letting other people down.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the challenge for career coaches for anyone who wants to support the athlete or supporting people in making that decision is how to give them the confidence.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not even confidence, it's conviction that listening to themselves and how they feel is really important.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like you you were able to figure that out.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's once you've figured that out and made that decision, you just have to back yourself 100%.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if people can realize and notice how assured you are with where you want to head towards, then they can't really refute that.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if they try and poke at it, you can stay centered and aligned with your values and your decision.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean you have to know what's next.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: It just means you know what is right now.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually this is a time to call onto these people to be like, hey, perhaps you can help me with what's next.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: I like the way you've positioned that the now versus next.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Being understanding yourself, your used values there, but understanding your values, what I guess that interest, that intrinsic motivation helps you in the now.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: But making sure you keep those loved ones or keeping people around you who can help you with the next.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And exactly.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly, if you like caffeine, uh that can help.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because you can keep um sitting down and having coffees with them.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess really being able to get in a position where you can have a conversation with them and and explore alternative paths, that's that's something that's really important.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's not with them, you'd be surprised who else they know that might really be they might be able to help you uh level up or point you in the right direction.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: So people are really kind and people generally want to help out.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's just your willingness to reach out and have a sense of agency in and making the ask, because if you don't ask, you'll never know the answer.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, very, very true.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: When you well, if that actually just does get me thinking, one of the guys who I I know who works in one of the clubs in Brisbane, he he uses the phrase I bought from him, 50 cups.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you're going out and exploring his 50 cups of coffee with 50 different people, and so you can sort of well measure it, but at least put it into a process where, well, I don't I won't know until I've had the 50.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: So don't stop until I've had that 50th cup.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that sounds like something you've believed in, uh, believe in still, because it's it's getting you through these multiple transitions.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me then, you didn't turn pro.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: What did you go and do?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I stayed in the US and interned at a small golf company called Seamus Golf.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that was an awesome six months where I just was hands-on on everything from socials to actually making shoes to doing B2B merchandising or outreaches.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a really holistic, great six months.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I moved back home and I was really set on working at an ad agency.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: I found myself at UDKU, a small independent innovation agency.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was there for like maybe eight to ten months before we were then acquired by KPMG.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: So made the transition into consulting accidentally.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: But that was a really great experience to be part of a huge conglomerate and understand the nuances or bureaucracy, I guess you could say, being in a place and environment like that.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then I found yoga, like during that whole time.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: That was kind of my next thing after golf.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: How could I find?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I didn't feel like I had a sense of purpose, even though I was okay with not being a golfer anymore.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I found yoga as my new outlet to dedicate my time, my passion, my energy physically as well.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a that was a big part of my chapter alongside my quote unquote professional or working career.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when you then think about that shift for you, and it I guess coming through the through the KPNG, at what points did you struggle during that journey?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say it was the first two years after graduation from college and not turning pro.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was a solid amount of time to to be okay with not competing anymore and getting used to a new way of living with golf.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: For for more than a decade, I had a coach, a set schedule of training and practice, and a set schedule around tournaments.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: So everything was there was like a paved path and route for you and a formula where you just all you had to do was show up, dedicate yourself, be disciplined, and so on, repeat and just trust that all these reps will be part of something bigger.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I came into the quote unquote real world, and I'm like, okay, what do we do here?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just about me anymore.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's about how can I be of service to my team or the greater company versus golf was such an individualistic sport when I had a team around me all about how can we make Kathleen 1% better.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I was a complete shift in in many different aspects there.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I would say it took about two years to really overcome not just the logistical side of day-to-day practice, but more so emotionally, the identity of I'm not a golfer anymore, or the concept of winning and losing, and drawing out all the different skills and traits I learned and finding a way to transfer that into the day-to-day world.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I say day-to-day as if it's like so different.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: I know what you mean.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the tradition the traditional workforce.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's that.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's a that's a good term.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Traditional workforce.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's that helps.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: It gives us the vocabulary that makes it that doesn't make it sound too weird.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, no, I was just in dreamland.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, well, I wasn't.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: But well, I do like one of the part of the phrase where you say this team around you that was focused on you to be that 1% better.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then you come away from that.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And no one's no one's ever articulated it in that way.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's quite interesting to hear it like that.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: But it it is.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing that comes away.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, no, just you you're you're kind of working, um, off you go and and work, you know.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Kathleen, I could I could chat to you for for hours on this.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know, and and I've I've already plugged so much.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly, there's gonna be a a revisit in uh we'll have to do that in a couple of years when more has moved on and we'll we'll pick up where we left off.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: But um, Kathleen, I think for those I don't know, maybe the there's so many different points that I'd love to ask the question on, but I think it's it's around your decision not to turn pro or to turn down what what perhaps what people are expecting of you for your next step in your career, and and be like, nah, I don't want to do that.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what given your experience, what guidance would you give to someone who is perhaps at that point right now and trying to make a decision?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: I would meditate on on it, find silence, and really, really listen to what your inner voice is trying to tell you.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think 99.5% of the time you know deep down what decision you want to make, irrespective of everything else that's happening around you.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you can just find that moment of silence for yourself and listen to it and commit to that decision, you can really anchor yourself in knowing that that's the answer and that everything else is is irrelevant and extra noise.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And from there you can work out how to work through that noise if you if you have to and need to.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Create the space and the silence to listen to yourself and yeah.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can create all the pros and cons lists you want, and I think that might help you to then sit in silence and actually reflect upon that.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's simple.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: We can all control that.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Kathleen, look, people are gonna want to follow you, um, perhaps even get in touch.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the best place to find you?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's my that's my jam of the social media platform.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: So just look up Kathleen Santozo and um I'll be there.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Should connect with me, shoot me a DM, and I'll definitely connect.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: Kathleen, thanks a lot for sharing um part one of the journey.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: That it's been really insightful having you on.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Ryan.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to this week's episode.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Reshaping a career is a team sport.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do it alone.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you want help working out your next step, it's all at secondwindadvisory.com forward slash academy.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Book a conversation with me there, and the link is also in the show notes.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a couple more things.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Send this episode to the person you thought of while you were listening.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's how this show reaches the people who need it.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ryan Gonzalez, take it easy, and I'll see you next time.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, before I do go, I want to drop a short thanks to Claire at Betty Book Design, Nancy at Tabit Podcast Solutions, and to read at copying content by loader.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Without them, this show would never have got together.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.