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From Dumpsters To Toshiba CHRO: Failure Is Essential · Mork Unfiltered

• speaker-0: Okay, how do I help myself? Because I don't have any help. No one's coming to help me. speaker-1: Young people particularly think that success needs to be immediate. speaker-0: People are are still tear of being obsolete. Some jobs will go. speaker-1: There are a lot of people who are like legitimately saying, I don't even know if any of the stuff I'm studying is gonna be relevant. speaker-0: I think we've gone from a society of once we were curious and al cautious. speaker-1: Can you teach somebody to be a self-starter if they're not? Welcome back to Mork Unfiltered, folks. Let me start off by asking you guys a question. What happens when you grow up so poor that your family sends you as a little kid into restaurant dumpsters to find food? Now, most people would say that's probably a life sense, right? The vast majority of people get into a situation like that. They have a really tough time finding their way out. It's sometimes a ceiling that you can never quite break through. But today, today's guests broke through. Jason DeSens went from childhood poverty in Michigan to becoming the Chief Human Resource Officer at Toshiba Americas, leading human capital strategy across thousands of employees. Along the way, he's also held senior leadership roles at Horizon Global, Goodyear, Henry Ford Health, and Chrysler, just to name a few. He speaks on stages around the world about leadership and influence and AI, and is one of the most vocal voices in the CHRO community on how artificial intelligence is reshaping the future of work. But Today's show isn't, you know, just a highlight real. This is a conversation about what it actually costs to climb that far, what breaks along the way, and what keeps you grounded when everything around you is changing. This folks is Mork Unfiltered, and this is Jason DeSetz. Jason, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you. speaker-0: Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. speaker-1: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, I mean that the the story of Michigan is one of those stories that just stuck with me as I'm sure it does a lot of people because it's so unusual. Not that, you know, people go through difficult times or or or have to resort to finding food the way you did. But, you know, to see what's come out the other side in terms of, you know, just how far you've come with your career, you know, running HR at at a large global organization, global brand like Toshiba. You know, and and and I was wondering when I was when I was preparing the show today, what did what did growing up in a situation like that do to you? How do you feel that having that kind of experience at such a young age and struggling so much, how does that shape a person? speaker-0: Yeah, it's ⁓ that's a great question, you know. When you're growing when you're going through it and growing up through it, you don't know the difference, right? It's just life. ⁓ you you think everybody does this. I think I think when when you start to realize how different your family is compared to others, is obviously in school. And growing up, yeah, I mean, got made fun of and and in fact ⁓ you know, we used to shop at the Salvation Army for our clothes. Or my mother was a seamstress so she'd make ⁓ If she could, she'd go to the store and buy it and I know how to sew as well. My mom thought us all how to make her own clothing and just from this very reason and growing up that way. It but what it but what I think it did for me is it set this fire in me once. I I don't know, I just had this thing in me that says, you know what, I'm just gonna be different. I'm gonna push through this and I'm just I know I'm I'm gonna get out of here, so to speak. I looked at it as like a place to get out of, but what I as I've gotten older and self reflect backwards now, I I I don't look so negatively upon it. I look at it as just a stepping stone. For me and the elevation of who I am as a person, but and then how that impacts my career. I will say it helps my career aspirations out because it's this drive. It basically started my engine in in inside of me. And then it's just been this drive to, yeah, stuff happens in life. It's the way I equate it to there's a there's a ride at Disney where, you know, kids can actually drive the car with their parents sitting in it and they're driving. They're literally driving and then there's a pedal, they go, but there's a track underneath them, right? And to me, that's life. Life for me the way I look at it is I'm ⁓ I'm in this car and I'm driving. I I may go too far left, I may go too far right, but guess what? It I'm gonna get bumped back in the in in in lane, but guess what? I'm never stopped going forward. So that's kind of how I look at it is I may have these bumps in life, but never stop. speaker-1: Yeah, that's key. That's key, right? And was there a particular incident, was there a particular moment where you made like a conscious decision to rake to make a real difference and and and to kind of like change the direction of your life from where you were as a kid? speaker-0: Honestly, you know, I I speak about this sometimes and as I think back because I've been asked this question before, like when is that moment? ⁓ there there have been several little moments, but I would say one that's very memorable that kind of was of lighting the switch is when I was in a senior year in high school, you know, I was a pretty decent student. You know, I didn't get great grades, but I didn't get bad grades and I wasn't that great of an athlete. I was a you know, middle of the road athlete, but I was like I had my I was the youngest, so my siblings, my sister was an amazing all-star athlete, got to go to college and scholarship and whatever. And I was like, I'm not gonna get a scholarship for either academics or or ⁓ you know, being in sports. And I so I went to the library because there was no internet back then and in nineteen ninety three and going into college in ninety four. I literally went to the the front desk, I asked the gal, I said, Okay, I hear there's books where People give away money from the government in these things called grants. I don't even know what a grant is, but I'm gonna find out. I'm here at the public library. What do I do? And then they just kinda didn't even look at just kind of pointed over there. And then you know, you can see the signs and I went and I just grabbed every book and I'm like, this sucks. That's all I said to myself is like, but then I'm like, okay, how do I help myself? Because I don't have any help. No one's coming to help me. And I literally just took a book, sat down, and I just said, Okay, let's start figuring things out. So to me, I became a self starter right then and there. And I think that is another trait I have, I recognize that I have, is I'm a self starter. And that is something that at times in business and to fast forward in my career as I went along and after college and everything, I became a self starter and when I sit down in a in my job. And if I was like, Okay, I'm done with this, now what? I'm like, all I'm gonna go to my boss and say, Is there anything more? What more? What kind of things can I volunteer? What can I learn more about? So that's I I believe that was a defining moment in in kind of the evolution of myself was it was the first time I recognized one what a self starter was and then I had. speaker-1: Right. Was there was there anything that you believe aside from your situation? Because some people are in that situation, but they don't necessarily become self starters, right? They some people are in that situation they become victims. Yes. Was there something, you know, with your parents or your environment that kind of like pushed you along that career, that that that direction of becoming a self starter, or or was there an influence of your parents to encourage you to be a more of a speaker-0: Self starter? So my mom used to always say, work real hard and great things will come to you. Simple. Very simple. I know it sounds very it's but it's but she was right. And what she meant was is, you know, I've never asked for a raise in my career. I just I focus on what my craft is. I try to learn everything I can. And then what I figured is is I will get noticed. But I also, self starter side of me says, okay, but you also need to put yourself in situations to be noticed. So that may be volunteering for a project if you've got the time or going the extra mile, staying a little bit later at work to to do something different or learn something more. And for me and you know, and then even growing up, I think another catalyst is, yeah, I I would wear these Salvation Army clothes or go to Kmart and get clothes. And I I distinctively remember a a school colleague of mine making fun of my faux polo shirt because it wasn't the actual polo guy with the and he and I got in a little tussled over that one. But But I but I tell my kids today, my younger son likes to thrift because that's a big thing in Gen Z. I said, Listen, man, son, I don't mind you thrifting. We could afford this stuff. Leave the good stuff. Or remember kids like your dad who didn't have the money to buy the good stuff and I could buy after, you know, hand me down good stuff ⁓ at these stores. So I always try to remind my kids even it's like there are other kids out there that like your dad that are trying to get through this and that stuff does matter sometimes and but we don't talk about it. People tell you it should matter, but it I never once let it be let me be a victim. Never once. speaker-1: Yeah. Now you you studied if I remember well, you studied criminal science. speaker-0: I did. I was gonna be a cop. Yeah, I was gonna be a cop. And then I l I went to law school for a short period of time too. speaker-1: Okay. And so so explain to me a little bit, you know, how did the pivot from criminal science and becoming a cop how d how did you end up in HR? How did you end up thinking about people? speaker-0: So I've told this story one on a recent podcast once and I told my wife I told him she said, You did what? So So I I mean I've been with my wife for thirty three years, super amazing. I can't believe she's been with me, but ⁓ we've been married for twenty twenty eight this year. And ⁓ anyways, th back in the day when I was in ⁓ senior college, ⁓ criminal science and studies and I was gonna go to the you know, police academy. My wife and I had a really long talk and we were engaged at that time. I was in you know twenty, twenty-two years old. I got engaged at nineteen, if I can believe I got married at twenty two. Crazy. But my wife and I had a really long talking. She goes, you know, you're kinda clumsy. I don't know if you being in a with a gun is probably smart. ⁓ I know your families are police officers on my mom's side. And I I just thought I really wanted to be a detective, to be honest. I didn't really want to be on the the beak, but I you know, it's kind of you gotta do that before you become a detective, which I totally understand. And then I I literally just had a moment and then I went and talked to my counselor at school and they're like, You you you could consider law school. But I hadn't thought about that really. And then I took the LSAT blind and did really well. Shockingly. And of course it was on a game day. I went to Michigan State University. So my buddies knew where I was taking the test and tried to razz me right before the test started and screaming my name and of course telling me that they're gonna have fun and I'm not. But anyways, took I I actually went to law school for a semester. It wasn't me like I did well. I did very well actually and I just I just I said, you know, I I thought I wanted to be a police officer detective. That really didn't translate into law for me. And then I didn't have a job and actually at that time I was getting ma I was gonna get married in a couple of months. And yeah. So I literally I called my sister who worked at Ford Motor Company at the time. I Hey, is Ford hiring? And she says, Yeah, I said, I just need a job. She goes, Well I'm actually hiring trainers. Can could you train? I'm like, Sure. I had no clue what I was doing. I I was just I I could do I could do whatever. So anyways I interviewed, became a trainer, technical trainer, started teaching things like Microsoft Word, PowerPoint led into other things like DEI training and all that kind of stuff, which started me on my SR pad. And then I pretty much defected and went to Chrysler in training and development and then the rest just kind of spun from there. speaker-1: Wow. No, that it's it's fascinating sometimes how, you know, ⁓ we start a career in one direction, we think we're gonna go down one direction, and then all of a sudden opportunity kind of pops up. But now it now in hindsight when you look at it and you've now been in HR for a while. And one of the things I'm really curious, yeah, it's I mean it's like you really know HR. What do people do incorrectly? What do people get wrong about choosing a career getting out of college? I love speaker-0: Long time. ⁓ that question. I think they assume right away everything that they saw, heard, read in college is exactly how the company does it today. I I would argue there are guidelines that they're taught. Yes, guidelines are in place, but the how is different really per company. I don't think they prepare you as a student to tell you that even though I'm teaching you this concept, it may be different at this company, at this company, at this company. What what they should be teaching is the conceptual in my opinion, the conceptual way of practicality of whatever they're whatever they're teaching it. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of our academics all the time, I'm not saying it depends upon the school, have real world working experience teachers. They have academics which I'm not knocking academia. I'm not that's please don't take it that way. ⁓ I've got people I know that are egg academic people that are amazing. I just think there's something to be said about ⁓ In fact, I always remember one of my professors literally walking in and he he says to the whole class and he holds up the book, he says, Everybody got the book? We're like, Yeah, and he slams it down, he goes, All right, that's reference. I'm gonna teach you through examples and actual real life world. We're gonna go through the book, we're gonna cover everything, but I'm gonna show you through examples and its practical nature of what I'm teaching you. So to me, I don't think they teach so many more examples. And then the you know, nowadays I'm hoping they're turning more to actual situational things. 'Cause there's so much out there online, but back in the day, no, I I was never it was it was always very academic and I I I don't think I was fully prepared for what what I was going into in the real world, of course. And they don't definitely teach you what to select on your new higher paperwork at all from when it comes to four one K and to what kind of benefits should I be thinking about. I think there needs to be a class on how to be very new level entry worker. What how do I go through the process? I need to teach that to speaker-1: And now, you know, when you think of what's being taught in in in high schools and in colleges, right? And you think of how artificial intelligence is changing everything. Yeah. Right. And there and there are a lot of people who are like legitimately saying, I don't even know if any of the stuff I'm studying is going to be relevant in the next two to three to four years. I don't even know if I should have a college degree, if it's even worth it. ⁓ I mean, you know, from your perspective as somebody, you know, who who who's been in HR for a long time and who who is now looking at, you know, how AI is starting to impact work and and how work is going to change, what are the skills that you think people really need to be learning actively, regardless of where AI takes us? Are there a couple of things that like, regardless of whether it's actively taught in curriculums or it's not taught, if you were to like talk to, you know, college students out there that are trying to figure it out, what what do you what would you tell people they really need to work on in terms of either learning or skills they need to develop that will serve them regardless of where all this pans out? Yeah. speaker-0: I literally just gave this same speech what I'm about to tell you to ⁓ the interns here at Toshiva. We we had a we had a lunch and learn day and then we had a couple of speakers and then I did a little speech too. And and you know what what I said to those students who are actively college students who are working here, I said to them, I said, you know, the way in which we think about the the employee today is much different than we looked before. And what I mean by that is is I'm looking for more competency skills rather than technical skills these days. What I mean by that also is breaking it down a little further is I'm looking for people who can really deal with ambiguity first and foremost. Yeah. So much comes at us all at the same time. And how do you handle that is going to be so important and will be also how you perceive in the organization as well. So it's super important that you understand that how you work under pressure is just as important to know as how you work on a daily basis without it. So I would I try to teach students ⁓ or anybody or coach anybody that I if I have. So really think through the problem and say, okay, well, you may get this problem and then another problem's going to come along. How are you going to manage that? What what what are some of the things you need to think through? And it's okay to say no with a smile because you can't do it physically or mentally because you're just overloaded. But also, are you hungry enough to stand out amongst everybody else? Because if you're going to sit and wait, this kind of goes off to the self-starter thing too. If you're going to sit and wait for something to come to you, I'm going to pass you down. Just telling me. If you and you know we speaker-1: Okay, but right there but but right there I wanna challenge you on something. Can you teach somebody to be a self starter if they're not? speaker-0: I think first and foremost you can make them aware that either they are or they aren't. I have a weird philosophy on change and and people always I've had a friend of mine and we debate about this often and ⁓ I don't truly believe you can change someone, but what I believe you can do is make them aware of what all the traits that they have and the traits they don't. And I and when you make somebody aware of that, what it can do is it can alter their behavior in the moment if they can catch it because of awareness. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: So either say something different or do something different. So ⁓ when I for example, I'm a very passionate speaker and I use my hands and I get loud. I have a trainer. So I yeah, exactly. So ⁓ maybe I get that from my mother who was Polish. But yeah, the you know, my point is is sometimes that could be viewed as aggression. So I I've been told this. So what I say is is in my awareness when I'm doing it, I read the room a lot. I always try to read the room. I'm like, hey, please don't I'll stop in the middle of something. I'd like don't mistake my passion for aggression. And what that does is it de-escalates what they're thinking. So to me, I'm someone may be able to change if they can. I I hope I'm wrong, but I I have this philosophy dealing with human behavior almost 30 years now. And I I see this stuff and we put people through these courses or whatever, like, ⁓ we're gonna put them through this and they're gonna different. Are they? Are they really? And it's okay to say someone's not fully changed, right? And I think we're afraid to say that. I'm not. What I'm what I want people to know is. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: Also when somebody's doing something that they've already been told that they've been doing and they haven't caught it, I'll s I'll pull them aside afterwards like, Hey, just FYI, you know, we've talked about this before. I just want to make you aware. Again, awareness is so powerful. speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's interesting that you say that because, you know, when I whenever I'm working with, you know, either senior executives or or startup founders, you know, have just raised a big round of funding and are scaling their companies, I always start with like a barrage of like four or five assessments. And people are like, dude, ⁓ my God, I'm spending like sixty minutes answering questions. They're like, Are you no do you know how busy I am? I don't have time to answer sixty questions. I'm Yeah, you do have time to you're gonna answer sixty questions. And I have them do like personality assessments. I have them do like the positive intelligence saboteur assessment. I have them do a value set and all this stuff. And then I I take all that stuff and I put it into an LLM. I put it into Club, into a special project that I have, and it cranks out like this 30-page report. And it's really interesting because when people read it, like some of it they're aware of, but a lot of it they don't see. And what they often don't see, which is even more interesting, Jason, is they don't see how all the patterns connect. Correct. Right. And so I think it's very interesting that you that you put so much emphasis on on on self awareness because to me, doing this kind of work, self awareness is the foundation of everything. I mean, if you don't have self awareness, you you can't really figure out what what you need to improve. And speaker-0: And and what people also forget some of the attributes that some someone may not like is what got you where you're at. So exactly I I can't necessarily say it's always bad. It may be bad in some situations, so that's why awareness is powerful because what you can s here's another example I had. When I was young, this is more than ten years ago, well more than ten years ago, when I went to my one of my first board meetings and I was in the board meeting and I was a senior executive at the time still. So the meeting my CEO came up to me. He's like, Hey, that was a great presentation, great job. Stop cracking jokes. I'm like, what? Like that was funny. Like, you know, the they were laughing. He goes, No man, not not here. And I was like, ⁓ okay, okay. And I and I I caught myself because the next time I was back in the board, I almost thought and I was like, ⁓ okay. And I got real serious. And so it it it's little things too, right? Then it's not a bad thing, but then sometimes in the situation it's just not yeah appropriate or not the right thing to do at that time. So I get speaker-1: Exactly. And it it and it's it's interesting that you would say that because obviously you've been in a number of different industries. Sure. Yeah. So you were you were at Chrysler, you're at Toshiba now, you good year with healthy exactly. So you know, when you look at your experience across industries, one of the things I was very curious looking at your experience is you know, if if if you look at your ⁓ your experience across industries across different companies and different cultures speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: What have you learned about what organizations consistently get wrong about people? speaker-0: I think what people I think they underestimate people all the time. I think they feel like sometimes people I think we've gone and I say this a lot too, I think we've gone from a society of once we were curious and now cautious. So we ⁓ we make these assumptions about talent versus like I had a boss once that said it's my job to believe in you more than you believe in yourself. Which means they're gonna put me in a situation that I don't think I can do. And they're like You can do it. You'll figure it out. Yeah, I made it a little bumpy, but you'll figure it out. I think I think most companies underestimate people and don't do that. Okay. And it's unfortunate because I don't think you stretch your people enough if you don't try it. If I don't try someone, I I did an assessment once and I had two IO psychologists report to me and we were doing 'cause we used to build assessments. This was in financial services now. And they're both doctorates and they're doctors or whatever. And yeah, one always did the engagement. survey stuff and one always did the assessments. And that was that was their that was their comfort zone, right? And I did an assessment and I was bringing on a new engagement tool through I think it was IBM Connectsa at the time. It was a long time ago. But the guy I did an assessment and the one guy was better at communication than the other, but it was the opposite person who should have done it. So I said, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna flip it. I'm gonna put you on the engagement. I'm gonna put you on the assessments. And the one guy got so mad, he's Well, that's my expertise. I said, Yeah, but I need, because this is a new program, this person's gonna have to get in front of all the executives. I need someone who can communicate well, not necessarily read the data, because you both are capable of doing that. What I need is someone who can communicate. And he was high scoring on the communication side, and I was and he was like, This isn't my this isn't my forte. I'm like, you'll be fine. And guess what? It went so well. And he surprised himself. He's like, I had no idea I could do this. I'm like, You did a great job, too. And your communications exist. Exactly what I wanted. You you got everyone engaged, you explained everything, because the other guy would have been too technical, he was very strategic, and it would have caused more issues than really what we just needed to do. speaker-1: That's that's so interesting, right? Because it it you know, it I I recently read I think you and I talked about in our in our in our call a few mu ⁓ like a few weeks or months ago. ⁓ I recently read the the the Anxious Generation about, you know, the impact of of of social media and smartphones on on teenagers, right? ⁓ yeah. Which is which is a must read for any parent and is shocking and and and so disturbing. And one of the things that was very interesting about the anxious generation, which which I wanted to tie back to your earlier comment Is that it seems that we have become much too cautious as parents with our kids. It's like, you know, when you and I were young, like we could go crazy and do like all sorts of weird shit and like our parents wouldn't care unless we're burning down the house. Right. ⁓ You'd like, Yeah, I'm gonna go, you know, I'm gonna walk down to the park, which is like three miles away, and I'll be back, you know, around dinner. Right. And it was like no problem. Then today you go like little Johnny goes, you know. who's fifteen goes down the street like, you know, one block and you know, immediately the neighbors are freaking out saying, like, how can you let ⁓ your child be by themselves? you know. So how much how much of it, when you look at like how cautious we've become, and I think that's a ver it was a very interesting comment you made, how much of that potentially is is coming from parenthood? speaker-0: It's coming from ourselves. I mean, we were the first generation, we're both the same generation Gen X that do you know where your kids are, right? Remember those commercials or we we were the first TSA kids about Stranger Danger. So we grew up with it, you know, never approach the van that doesn't have windows, right? I mean, just things, you know, things like that that we call them kidnapper vans, right? When we were kids. I I think today's it's it's more information has gotten out. So we've all learned about all these cases. We didn't know because Back then there was no national news unless you watch like ⁓ sixty minutes or correct. There was no s there was no instant information across the globe in an instant and every second. We had and we didn't really stay up to watch those boring programs. We were too busy watching cartoons or whatever that only came out of the short window where cartoons are now also twenty four seven. So I I think we were in the generation that compartmentalized our generation. I think speaker-1: Yeah, there was no social media. speaker-0: in the right way, even though I think a lot of stuff happened to us that, you know, you read look back, all these serial killers, all these kids that got kidnapped, it was awful. I mean, we were the generation that created the milk carton, you know, missing kid, right? But I I do believe you're right. I including myself, I remember my wife and I raising my boys now twenty three and twenty one. And we would say, Listen, if we're walking and you're on your little bike, you can't go past the next block without us ⁓ if we're not in sight, you cannot keep going. And my one son would turn around, look for us. My other son, who's like, nope, keep going. You're like running down the like I told you to stop. And but you're right. I believe because we kinda were like always worried we're gonna get kidnapped and looking for things, I think we push that now down to our kids. And it's even worse because all of us I think Gen X loves true crime. I love watching true crime. I think that just sends another whole level of curiosity and and cautiousness to us. Yeah. speaker-1: What what what can you do from a leadership perspective within an organization to encourage people to be more curious and to try more stuff? speaker-0: It ⁓ I literally just said this on another podcast. It's okay to fail. It's okay to make a mistake. Maybe let me say it that. It's okay to make a mistake. ⁓ I I tell every one of my direct reports, I say this every time when I first meet them, I will support you when you do great things. I will support you when you make mistakes. But let's not make too many mistakes because I really want to support you more on the great things. But what what that says to them is that I got your back no matter what. And with my kids I say this to my two boys all the time. I expect you to make mistakes. It's what you do after it that defines you as a person. So I think we we have gotten so cautious that and remember, we also raised a generation where everyone got a ribbon. So they don't I they don't know how to lose. So they look at losing as so or any negative feedback as like, ⁓ my gosh, my life's over. We're yeah. speaker-1: I hate that. speaker-0: We would have some of that, but I think it would be like, All right, well I'll see you tomorrow, Bill or Bob, you know, whatever I think. Yeah, today suck, but I'll see you tomorrow. Tomorrow'll be fine, right? Tomorrow's a new day. This this stuff matters for them. speaker-1: It does. It does. And it's it's you know, I I think you know, you know, I remember you worked in the car industry and I think there was a I don't know I don't remember if it was Honda or or or if it was ⁓ or if it was Toyota. But one of those companies apparently had like an award for the biggest failure of the year. speaker-0: I believe that. It's probably, you know, Toyota. Yeah. I mean, you look at all your famous people. I mean, even Elon Musk, he failed several times before he became famous. I mean, I I Ford Motor Company, Ford Motor Company is not his first company. It's probably more like his third. I mean, you know, ⁓ I talk about Colonel Sanders, KFC. He wasn't, he wasn't until his 60s, until he finally got, you know, he created, you know, KFC. He was like a door-to-door salesman. He tried and failed, tried and failed. speaker-1: Celebrate. They would celebrate the failure. speaker-0: All these try and fail people who then become successful, it we we don't talk a lot about the failures more than we talk about the success. speaker-1: I think you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, it's ⁓ I think ⁓ you know, I I read that, you know, ⁓ Thomas Edison, I think, did like a thousand light bulbs before he finally figured out like the structure of the filament of the one that finally worked. And and ⁓ Colonel Sanders, which is one of my fav my favorites, you know, the founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken. I think he had s something like a thousand different attempts as well as at opening a franchise before he got the first one. So, you know, that that's that's the thing that worries me about you know, the times that we live in a little bit is that you yeah, I agree with you, people are too cautious for sure. And then on the flip side of that, young people particularly think that success needs to be immediate because they see all this crap on Instagram and they're like, well, you know, I can become a billionaire in six months, you know, if I build my Instagram profile. Like, how do you combat that, right? Yeah, yeah, from an organizational perspective, what can you do to, on the one hand, get people to be more curious? And on the other hand What can you do to make sure people know it's okay to fail? Like, are there are there programs, are there behaviors among leadership that you've seen that help this? speaker-0: Yeah, we we talk a lot about the successes, but also we say, what were some of the failures that got you to that success? We changed the question around when it when we talk with some of our leaders because I'm curious, did you have any lessons learned? And and you know, every year I do a look back on a lot of our major processes, like open enrollment, for example. I'm like, okay, let's see how open enrollment went this year. And I get we try to do surveys, recruitment. ⁓ we instituted surveys now for both the manager and the candidate, and we're asking both, like, How was the candidate experience? You know, how was the recruitment experience? How what w how was your first day? Did you have all the tools you needed? And we recognize we're gonna get some feedback that isn't always great, but we wouldn't know unless we asked. And people don't realize you can't fix something unless you know it's broken. ⁓ exactly. If you don't say anything, how am I know to fix it? And then, you know, I think we people need to realize that it's not the end of the world when you do fail, but I think That's why the twelve place ribbons came around because we didn't want Billy or Sally to feel bad. Like exact sometimes you have to learn how to feel bad so you know what great really feels like. Otherwise it's a it's a faux great. Everything's great. That doesn't make sense. speaker-1: I absolutely agree with you. I mean, I remember when I left Santiago, Chile in two thousand twenty three and moved moved back to the US, you know, I was interviewed in in in like the equivalent of the Wall Street Journal there. ⁓ and the the title of the piece that they end up publishing was called ⁓ The Four Years in Chile were the hardest years of my life. And it was it was interesting 'cause, you know, I got to Chile, I started this company from from the ground up, you know, total completely bootstrapped a leadership development company in a foreign country, you know, where I I I didn't know the culture. I mean I spoke the language fortunately. Then of course there was a massive civil unrest where like five million Chilanes took to the streets. They want to change the constitution. They were looting and burning supermarkets. It was absolute shit show for like ten months. And then of course after that we had COVID. And then after that, the country went into a recession. And this, you know, has become the topic of of of the keynotes that I do know when I when I travel around the world speaking at at conferences. And and people say, Well, you went through all of this crap and it was so insanely hard. And ultimately the company didn't make it. Like, isn't that a failure? And my answer to them is you can look at it at a failure, but at the same time, I learned more from building that company in four or five years than I did in in in thirty years in corporate and in other startups. Like the learning curve was unbelievable. I would agree with you. So it's it's it's it's it's ⁓ it's a necessary precursor. I am you know to any kind ⁓ of success. speaker-0: And I I never really wanted to do my own thing outside of corporate America, but I was in consulting for five years on my own. Yeah. To your point, I worked in startups for the first time. And to me, that was incredible because I wouldn't have gotten that experience had I not done that. So to your point, sometimes even though it's a failure, did you see something there that you wouldn't have gotten out of your other experiences? And the answer is yeah, absolutely. In fact I look at things differently now because and it changed my philosophy because when I was consulting, you know, things caught you know, time costs money, right? So you c well, you would normally get like ninety days to do something in a company as a consultant, you get like thirty. So it it made me refine how I do things because I only had a shorter period of time and you get rid of a lot of the fluff and I became even better, I feel like, after that experience. So so I would agree with you one hundred percent. Yeah. speaker-1: And now when you look at artificial intelligence, right, and you're like in the thick of this and talking a lot about this, right? And and there a lot of people are saying, you know, we've never lived in in in a in a ch we've never lived at a time in history where we are seeing the pace of change that we're seeing now, right? Yeah. And I was curious from your perspective, you know, working in a large organization, ⁓ you know, a technology company, what what do you think are the biggest challenges that leaders face when it comes to AI. speaker-0: We it's kinda interesting you said I think a couple of things. One is I always look at AI as an enhancement, not a replacement. But I think that I think first, what's our perception of it? So I I think you have to have a a perception of it. And it's just kinda like how the internet came into the office space and reason before computers. I mean, think of the resistance phenomatic and all the hand holding were like, well, they're not computer based. So we still need to make it in paper. And it was this transition period, right? I'm gonna say for a good five years, maybe ten. I think it's faster with AI, but I I think we're in that transition period again, just it's something new that's gonna change the world. I think the first thing that people are struggling with is what I what can I make AI enabled and what does that mean? And I don't even know all the definitions and all these terms of LLMM. I don't know all these things, I don't know what a gen tick means. So I think what we need to do first is go back to the basics and just teach them the basics of AI. Here's what it actually does. Here's what it here's the acronyms. Here's the, you know, I mean, I think w we're doing that here at Toshiba. I'm actually pretty excited about that. We have an AI curriculum and it's a big basics course, if you will, of teaching people all the basics of AI. And I we're getting everybody AI ready. Second step is okay, now I'm moving into what can I automate, so to speak. And depending upon what you are, we're a co-pilot shop here, so we have the ability to create agents. So we're teaching all of ⁓ in fact in HR, I had my annual HR summit where I brought all my HR folks together. We did a breakout session where we taught them how to use Copilot to create agents. And I said, All right, go out and we're gonna have different groups, different teams, like five different teams. And I want you to give give your agent a name, ⁓ what's its purpose, what's the reference material you're gonna use, and what are you hoping for it to solve? And we had all kinds of ideas. And then after our summit, 30 days later, we did like a shark tank. They had to use AI to create a logo and so we came up with six different AI agents. We had payroll princess that handles all your payroll needs and questions. We had Time Teamer that can help you schedule in the plans, but also can make sure your attendance schedules are all up to date and our system of HRIS records. We have a pay ⁓ an ⁓ talent acquisition agent that can help managers write ⁓ interview questions for the job that they're doing that are specific to the job. So it We my team did an amazing job and we did the Shark Tank where I did this judging. So you can start playing with AI too. And then the next step is are there gonna be third party external things that you can bring in? I would be cautious though, because you wanna make sure they integrate with your current network, your systems, and in HR specifically, we spent the last ten to fifteen years getting rid of all of these different systems and trying to go down to one. What I mean by that is is we would have an HRIS system. I'd have like let's say ⁓ ⁓ people saw back in the day. I'd have my own Adobe LMS and I'd have another applicant tracking system, let me say like ISOMs or something. So I'd have like all these different systems. They all had their own logins. I mean it was nuts, right? Then the HCMs said, you know, we're gonna we're gonna put our own modules and therefore so most AC HCMs now and you know HRS systems have it all one. But that way I comes along and says, ⁓ well just bolt more stuff back on. I'm like Wait a minute, I just got rid of all this stuff. So, and then I'm finding that all these people that bolted stuff back on are now taking it off and going back out because they went too fast. So I think I think it's yeah, it's here to stay, don't get me wrong, but I think how you implement it, how it fits into your current infrastructure is something we don't talk enough about. speaker-1: Interesting. Interesting. I totally I totally understand that. I can totally I can totally see that. And one of you know, one of the things that I see is, you know, I had I had a I had a dinner with a a group of CEOs about a month ago and and one of the things that we were all wrestling around the table with ⁓ was, you know, all these CEOs were all very excited about getting more of their people to use AI more and they're like, Yeah, you're gonna be more productive, you're gonna do faster, you're gonna be more creative, you can do all this stuff, it's gonna be wonderful. And they were all around the table, they were all saying the same thing, which is they were all struggling to get their people to really use the tools. To really find the time to learn how to use whatever, you know, cloud cowork cloud code or or or or chat GPT, you know, five point five or whatever it was now, or a five point six soul. But They were all struggling with, you know, getting people to to to to to use these tools. And there are many different reasons, you know, from from you know, people are just like buried in work to you know, people are afraid or people feel uncomfortable, or people already have another way of working, they're comfort, they're in their comfort zone. What skills do senior leaders and CEOs need to work to develop more of, you know, to encourage people to use these tools and to realize, as we've been talking about, that hey, This is gonna be this is gonna be easy. You're gonna go out, you're gonna make some mistakes, you're not always gonna succeed, you're gonna have some failures, but it's gonna be okay. What skills do leaders need to learn more of and get better at to to to enable to build that kind of like psychological safety or that trust so that people feel empowered and encouraged to go out and do this stuff? Yeah. speaker-0: I think awareness that their team is capable of doing it first and foremost. Not everyone's capable of starting. I mean, and then and then just to blanket say, Hey, ⁓ we got this AI stuff, go ahead and go. Just go do it. You you gotta give them a little direction. I think leaders need to figure out what direction you need to give more direction other than just go ahead and use AI. ⁓ I think if I were them, I would tie it back to our business objectives of the company and say, Here's the business objectives of the company. Now, out of your area of responsibility, is there anything that we can use AI that can influence what we're trying to do for the year, the whatever the long term growth of the business, if we're trying to create faster ways to get new business, maybe AI can help us there. I think we need to chat back to our and then and then two things. One, you gotta educate them. How are you educating your staff? How to use it? Are are you sending them off to the webinars? Are you giving them I mean it it's like giving someone a stick shift and saying, Here, go go cork that over there, ⁓ can you back it in by the way? And you're like I don't you you know how to drive a stick, I know how to drive a stick, but sometimes even the reverse, right? Is in the different configuration. If I don't tell you how to do that, you're gonna crash. You're gonna stall, you're gonna crash, and you you're probably gonna hit something else and damage something else. So I think you gotta be you gotta be ⁓ not a micromanager. But you got to give people the road to go on to learn. And then second, you got to give them autonomous time. Where it's maybe once a week or once a quarter. So I don't care if you want to start out because you're right, I'm too busy. But if I say you're gonna do half a day, all I want you to think about is AI. All I want and then give ⁓ a due date or a target date for them to come back to you because you have to have something to work towards if it's just open ended. I I don't feel you'll get people we are creatures of habit that that also like dates structure. So you have to give people some structure around it. So I I I would encourage we're constantly like we said, we got AI readiness. We're doing these ⁓ showcases. I actually did a contest where I I gave so that we did that, you know, where I had my team, we did like the Shark Tank thing. I gave someone a hundred dollar gift card, you know, to the group. Each of them got a hundred dollar gift card to the group of members that came up with this tool. So make it fun too. Make it fun. Yeah. And then if they do break something, hopefully it's not bad, but if they do break something, be like, you know, at least you you're doing it in the effort of forward force. But don't do it again. speaker-1: Interesting. Yeah, no, it's exactly it's like you can make a mistake, just don't make the same mistake. So so you know, one one of the things that somebody mentioned to me at a at a at a conference, ⁓ I was giving the closing keynote at FinTech America's here in Miami and I was talking with a group of executives and we were all talking about how everybody talks about organizational transformation, about digital transformation, now it's AI transformation. And you know, obviously many organizations have gone through their own version of transformation. speaker-0: No. Yeah. speaker-1: And yet the shocking statistic, you know, according to McKinsey and others, is the vast majority of these initiatives fail. Like they just they just never produce any any meaningful results. I mean, when I was talking to all these banking executives, I think eighty percent of the peop of the of the of the people in the banking industry had tried some sort of, you know, AGI initiative and and it's like one out of four or something had anything to show for it. Which of course is demoralizing and demoting really for a lot of people when they see when they see that data. But one of the interesting that things that came up as well is that the vast majority of these organizations had been able to start the process. But then somewhere along the way, you know, after the initial kickoff and the CEO being on stage, you know, rah, rah, rah, AI is going to change everything. You know, six months in, everybody's like, you know, got all their work and they've got a million things, they've got all these initiatives and they've got their goals, and then they got this kind of AI project on the side. And it's like the analogy that somebody used for me was like, it's like you your cell phone runs out of battery. Right. They're they're like the enthusiasm is there, but but people cannot keep the momentum going and eventually they run out of juice. And so I'm wondering kind of like what you're seeing in your role, what you're seeing across all of the organizations, some of the starters that you've been working with. But I guess my my bigger question is how do we give people the resilience to actually finish the marathon? Right. If AI has a marathon and we all have to go through it, we all have to run it, right? Regardless of You know, we're super fit or we weigh four hundred pounds, we're gonna have to run that marathon. How do we get people to finish this thing? Like how do we how do we get how do we help them build resilience to be able to get through it? speaker-0: For us here, we have like AI champions. These are people who are it's their job, even though they have a day job, their job to encourage the teams that are doing things and keep them motivating, keep them going. 'Cause it's like having a coach, right? There's a reason why we all have coaches as teams, even though we can just play the sport ourselves, you still have have a coach because the coach keeps you engaged. The coach can see things that you can't, coach can guide you when you're going amiss. So we need coaches and, you know, some kind of champion or advocate and whatever you want to call it. I think we don't we don't nominate people for that. Like we used to we do that for safety. We're here, we have safety, you know, you know, champions across the organization and and you know, their responsibility is for that particular thing, whatever it is. And I think we need to do the same thing with AI because you will lose momentum to your point. And it is rah rah. It's kinda like the you know, it's the flashy thing right now. But the thing is is we we can't run from it though. That's that's that's the difference. I think it's It's not a fad that's going away. It's not it's not gonna be a bubble. Everyone thought the internet was gonna be a fad too and yeah. They were wrong. Yeah. So I I I think it's it's just one, let's recognize it's here. It's I think we people need to get over that hump first. But I think people still think it's a f and then secondly, I think Phobo, people are are still fear of being obsolete, phobo. So I think what we need to do is kinda work them through that. And I don't know how you wanna reassure ⁓ but some jobs will go away. I I Not gonna lie there. I think that's true. But if you Ford Motor Company, for example, got rid of a lot of engineers, and then guess what? They're hiring them back. Because they recognize the AI wasn't giving the results like a human being was. And I think we're gonna I think we're gonna figure that out. We're we're gonna be doing this. Try it, it didn't work, flip back. But I do I will think there's gonna be processes that can be automated. And I think we're thinking about it too broadly. AI for everything. I think we just need a small wins. You gotta you gotta just we we all have to do proof of concept. Like we all should be doing A B testing, like let's do it one thing here, let's not do something here, let's compare the two. If we can't if you have that luxury, you're gonna be better off. And we're considering AI coaching and doing the same thing. A B test. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean i i it sounds to me like, you know, your analogy about talking about how, you know, ⁓ athletes all have coaches. I mean, you know, I I to me it continues to stun me how few organizations actually invest enough in leadership development or coach their people to to get to the next level, right? Realizing that when you're going through a massive change, most of us don't have a playbook on how to do this. Right. You you kinda like muddle through it. speaker-0: Parenting. No playbook. speaker-1: ⁓ boy. ⁓ boy. Let don't get me started. That's a whole separate podcast episode. That's a whole s yeah, look, parent parenting speaker-0: I'm waiting for my parent handbook to come in the mail. I've been waiting twenty three years. speaker-1: That's your ne that's your ne that your next book. You're gonna have to write that one, Jason. You're gonna have to write that one. But ⁓ but you know, w one of the things I you know, you you touched about it briefly last time, you know, when I think you mentioned when we we first met that your your son when he was young had to go through a heart operation and and a heart transplant. And and that is, you know, I I can't even imagine as a parent. I mean, I'm like absolutely adoring my kids. I can't even imagine how difficult it is to have a child go through that kind of a surgery that young. But one of the things that speaker-0: Tress fine. speaker-1: that that struck me about our conversation about about hearing you talk was, you know, you seem to be somebody that's fairly grounded in your faith as well. speaker-0: Yes. I'm I'm I'm a Christian. I'm I I was raised Catholic and you know, my mother was very staunch Catholic. I would go every Sunday, even to Polish masses that I didn't understand the language. But I grew up very, very, you know, in a religio I wouldn't say I'm a moderately religious household, but I you know, to me faith I wish faith was like a switch that I could leave on. And and I and I I ⁓ through all the challenges in my life When I was younger I didn't really I think a lot of us when we're younger don't really some kids get it, I didn't. ⁓ it wasn't until I was adult, even after my son. I think a I think a lot of my faith has gotten me through the hard times and I'm just I'm blessed every day when I come into work that I have I have this job. I mean I know there's many people that don't have a job and are working three or four jobs and I have done that ⁓ myself. I'm I'm go I have a phrase always be hustling ABH and I my son I've taught that to my sons because I'm always God you never know, right? And and I always I always say, Life's life's your own story and it's what you do with it. And to me, the fact that I've been able to lean on my faith and I still don't understand it because there are times when I feel like, why am I being put through this this terrible thing? Or I just don't get it, I'm a good person, or when I watch when things happen to other people that are amazing people, and then there's bad people out there, you're like, Well, why doesn't it happen to them? And I realized that I've been put in this situation and every time I don't know why I just I I keep even thinking about it. I'm always better off after being a down the road. Yeah. You learn I was put in there to learn something so I'm stronger next time. And I and I don't exactly have the same thing. So for some reason I'm here and I've I've been exposed to many different challenges in life and and I don't know, I I still have a purpose and so I always enjoy part of me giving back and I didn't really share my story. Until only recently, honestly, because I it's not that I was ashamed of it. It's just when I don't want to be seen as a victim. I don't ⁓ I didn't want to be everyone will be like, Man, I had something, but nothing compared to you. To me, it's like everybody has something. You know? Everybody has yeah. Of course, my son what he went through is terrible, but think of the same feeling every parent has when your kid breaks an arm. You have the same feeling I have when my son's getting cut open and his whole heart's being removed. It's the same feeling. We all go through the same thing, but It's what you do and and how that defines you. And actually, honestly, my career shot up after my son was going through all that because what I learned from that experience was don't sweat the small stuff. All the little things that work that I was worried about, like performance or, you know, did somebody see me? Did I leave it at the right time? So they look at I'm a hard worker. I just gave all that up. Cause you know when it's like either they're gonna look at my work and they're gonna see the effort I put into it and they're gonna they're gonna appreciate that. Or they're gonna move on. Why am I stressing myself out over that? So actually ⁓ honestly, my son is a huge inspiration, and actually I I always tell him, and I I my other son, I always, you know, he helps me too because he's a sports kid and he was always, you know, always working really hard, getting to the next level, never gloated, never did, you know, always score a touchdown, give the ball back to the ref and just get back to the team. It was always my kids were my inspiration and I was grateful to look at that and then my faith coupled with that, I'm just I'm so grateful to be surrounded by great people, my my wife, my family, my my friends, my pastor, and just some great things. speaker-1: Do do you cultivate a gratitude practice? speaker-0: I do actually I have it written up on my board. I have have a bunch of phrases always written up on my board here. I always say living in gratitude. I need I had a friend of mine that said that once. He goes, you know, we need more people living in gratitude versus living in victimhood. And I'm like, it is so true. Like we are we are there's so much to be grateful for that we s we we're but we're trained as humans to focus on the negative. And I think forget that. When I feel down, I'll call somebody, phone a friend. speaker-1: Hundred percent agree. speaker-0: I'm usually one people come to, so when it when I get to that point, it's it takes a lot. But when I get there, I have a few people, including my wife, I just cough and I'm like, I'm in a rough spot right now and I'm just trying to think through them. Can I just share some stuff? And ⁓ and then I have some friends that are, you know, in my pastor. I'm like, Can we go get some coffee? I I need I need to work through some tough challenges right now and I need to confide in someone and I and I just I just need an ear and ⁓ I'm grateful. So have living gratitude for what you have and then when you get in trouble times. Who's your phone a friend? Who's your phone a you know, savior, if you will? I think you know, ⁓ we need to do that more often. We stop feeling sorry for our subject. We feel sorry a little bit. But we got remember that it's that car. We gotta keep moving, man. Gotta keep moving. speaker-1: Yeah. Exactly. No, I look a hundred percent. I mean, I have a gratitude practice. I I write in a journal every single day. ⁓ that's awesome. Five things I'm grateful for. It doesn't matter what it is. Even if it's a nice sunset, I like write it. It's like beautiful sunset. Got a new client, gave a keynote, whatever, had dinner with a friend. You know, it doesn't matter what it is, I always write it and ⁓ Yeah, I I I agree with you, Jason. I think, you know, we are so wired to focus on the negative. And I think unfortunately the you know, the media and social media has such a negative influence on that. And ⁓ I just always tell people, you know, those two hours that you spend don't doom scrolling on Instagram, you know, put that towards learning about, you know, these new AI tools, put it towards reading a book, put it towards spending quality time with friends, you know, getting out of the house, playing ball, whatever. But be grateful for what you have because I'm sure you you you have so much more than than the guy next door. speaker-0: I mean honestly, ⁓ I love music, grew up playing music, my dad's a musician, so I I'm a drummer and I love rock and roll. I love a lot of zombies, but lately I found that a lot of the music, current music today, is just very negative ⁓ sometimes. So I've even switched to old school eighties, nineties, or I'll get into Christian rock now and it's just ⁓ it's just an uplifting thing. It reminds me to live in gratitude and I I think we it's harder these days to keep positive things around you. Just look at any news station or any any publication. It's all negative. And used to be we'd have good stories, right? Like some good story you'd have like fifty fifty, you know, good and bad. But like now they just it's all like stock value and clicks and it's yeah it's if you if you if speaker-1: But that's intentional. But that's intentional, right? I think one of the things that I started doing is I've started basically, you know, right clicking on things in my feeds and saying, not interested, or show me less of this. And the algorithm does listen to you, right? Like I started saying, like, you know what? I don't I don't want to hear more about what's happening in the Middle East. I don't want to hear more about what's happening with the president or what's happening in politics because it's all negative all the time and it is not helpful. And if I need to inform myself, speaker-0: I like that. speaker-1: I'll read the news once a week on a Sunday. Yeah. Over coffee. I will graduate when I'm not like when I'm not gonna go apeshit ballistic about it and and I'm chill, you know, like on my on my terrace. But otherwise I I I've chosen to tune it out. But I think your your point around and the reason I wanna ask you the question is is I'm finding that more and more entrepreneurs and successful business people that I'm meeting have found resilience in their faith. And and I'm not saying kind of some for some of them it's religious. Yeah. For some of them it's spiritual, for some for some of them it's an unwavering belief in their team or their organization or their ability, whatever it is, but but but all these people seem to have that common thread, which is they find strength in something that's greater than themselves. Yeah and that kind of ⁓ speaker-0: I have a ⁓ I grew up in ⁓ Dearborn, Michigan, which is next to Detroit in ⁓ Miles Border. I was on the borderline of Detroit, I was in East Dearborn. But a lot of my friends were Muslim and and still are to this day. And and we had my thirtieth class reunion a couple of years back and and my buddy from all the way from elementary school, all the way to high school, he became ⁓ like a s ⁓ a soccer coach at the University of Michigan for the club team and just a great guy. But I remember as a kid growing up with him. I mean, Ramadan would come around and it would, you know, Ramadan moves and he was so devout to his faith and he was a huge athlete. I mean, we'd be in track and he couldn't drink water, and you're just like, Muhammad, man, like Mo, we call him like Mo, you're gonna die, bro. Like go sit in the shade or something. We would all but what we found is we just I was so even as a young kid I remember that. And I've never told him a story. I I when I see him next time I have to tell this. But like I I admired his faith. speaker-1: You're gonna die. speaker-0: I admired his conviction. And I remember that to this day. And I just and he you know, fast forward I I saw him again at the thirtieth. And he he said something similar to me because he watches me online where he's like, ⁓ I admire all the your success. You're bringing our East Dearborn boys going, you're you know, Jay, you're you're giv doing us proud. 'Cause it was a it's a very poor area, you know, and and where we grew up and and it was kinda like but he's successful himself. So it's just It's just great to no matter what faith you believe in, as long as you have it. 'Cause I I I don't know how people do it without faith to be honest with speaker-1: I don't either. But but but you know, definitely when when when I when I when I do organizations have been asked for me to talk about resilience and and that's for me that's one of the five pillars. I I end on the fifth pillar which is which is faith. And ⁓ and I came to religion late in my life, literally just a couple of years ago and I was going through a very, very tough time here in Miami with my with my son. And I found that, you know, turning over to religion, just letting go a little bit and trusting in a higher power, that really had an amazing effect. And it's true it's it's changed my life. speaker-0: Surrender. You gotta you gotta know how to surrender, man. Like I think exactly we're also for successful people like yourself or leaders, we tend to think we have to control everything. So I think exactly letting go and also finding community. That's something I I learned through my faith. And just like you, having I'm like in my ⁓ I don't know, second half like you, I found faith again in a different way and it's even stronger. But I found more of a community that I can go to. So I do like, you know, Bible studies on like Wednesday nights and And at first I'm like, I don't know, like Catholic, you like you go in, it's like you got three feet of personal space, no one touches you, but it's different, man. It's just different. But I was like blown away by the people really do care. Like people really do want to hear what you're talking about. They really want to pray for you. They really wanna it's just be there for you. And it it to me it's like, Wow. Like this is phenomenal. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it's very cool. It's very cool. I mean, and look, you know, the statistics say that there is a massive upswing in in faith in in the United States. I think, you know, the the last year they were talking about record number of sales of Bibles. And I think, you know, with everything that's going on in the world and all the uncertainty, people are turning to faith as a as as a source of hope. But but listen, this has been this has been great. I realize I've taken more of my time than I should have. So I I I w I wanna I wanna I wanna start closing this out. One of the things I I do on on every episode speaker-0: Yeah, no worries. speaker-1: Jason, as I have kind of the lightning round of questions, three quick questions, three quick answers. They're the same ones for each guest. All right. But they're always you always get interesting answers. So the first question is if you could have any superpower, what would you choose? speaker-0: I think I think I would want to be able to fly. speaker-1: Okay. Yeah. You don't want to fly. Even though I'm afraid of heights. Question number two. That could be a problem. Question number two. if you could have dinner with anybody in history, alive or dead, who would you choose? speaker-0: Jesus absolutely comes down. speaker-1: All All right. And the last one, if if you could give one piece of advice to a young person, maybe watching this show, thinking about their career and what they want to do, what advice would you give that person to help them find a career of meaning and purpose? speaker-0: Figure out another way to to break through that wall. I think people think they get stuck behind a wall and they can't break through it. And what I my advice to anyone else is is don't give up and keep find another way around the wall. It's up to you how you find it, but find another way. There is another way. speaker-1: There's always another way. Cool. Jason, this has been awesome, man. Look, ⁓ you know, from from from growing up poor, you know, going through all these different industries, building your career, you know, shaping, shaping young leaders, shaping old leaders, you know, really being part of this movement for change, you know, and and and and ⁓ and and pushing through artificial intelligence, which is not easy. And and and helping people develop their leadership abilities and building great cultures, you know, I think ⁓ your story is a testament to what's possible. ⁓ you know, it's it's it's inspiring. I think, you know, what you've been able to achieve, ⁓ your role in these different organizations, you know, mentoring startups, companies as well, and and the faith that you've carried along along the way, I think really shines through. So you know, about half of myself and the crew here and all the audience watching this, you know, thank you so much for being on Mork Unfiltered. And obviously if people wanna find out more about you, I guess we're we're we're what's the best place to to follow you. speaker-0: LinkedIn's the best, I'm a ghost everywhere else. speaker-1: All right. LinkedIn it is. Jason DeSents on LinkedIn. HRO at Toshiba. You know, thanks for being on the show today. And folks, you know, if you learned something, if you found that this was helpful, if you had kind of some I am openers, you took a crazy amount of notes, make sure to ⁓ smash that like button, subscribe to the channel. We drop episodes every Thursday and ⁓ leave us some comments or questions. You know, it's always interesting to get people's comments as well. And ⁓ we will see you on the next edition of Mork Unfiltered. Thank you so much, Jason. speaker-0: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.