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What is a Professional Geologist? An Intro to Licensure · PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planet Geo, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it works, and why it matters to you.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Dr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Joshua HFL Davis, welcome.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh welcome back.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: How's it going?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm doing very well.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Professor Professor Rimick.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Are you Professor Reimick?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can we call you that?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or are you should be assistant, associate Professor Reimick?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not an assistant.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm associate now.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an associate.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Don't demote me to assistant back again.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just got that.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, congratulations on your tenure.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, thank you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um the today we're gonna talk.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is gonna be a brief, relatively brief.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: We say that often, but let's try and keep it brief.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, intro into the professional geology licensure process.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I I have my own kind of personal story of the origins of this discussion.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, this is the intro episode to a series we're gonna do on this.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: You and I will interview professional geologists, we'll interview people along the way that have expertise along the road of getting the license process and to kind of give a personal experience.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm partway through the process.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I took my FG exam, which we'll get into what that means in the for the US perspective, but I've kind of started the process to getting licensed as a professional geologist, but I did not, I don't think I ever got exposed to a professional geology license, the fact that it that it exists in my undergrad at all, in part because I was at a small institution in Michigan, and Michigan is a state that does not require a license.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then in Alberta, when we were both PhD students in Alberta, we got exposed to that licensing process a lot because the undergrad program is really targeting at the University of Alberta, at least it used to, target that degree and target that licensing process.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So they had to have like an economic geology class, a bunch of classes they had to check the box of to get the degree.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: So students were kind of already well along their path.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then for me, getting back to Penn State, like arriving at Penn State, that doesn't exist at Penn State.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh Pennsylvania does have a licensing process, but our undergrads don't get very well exposed to that process, I would say, throughout the curriculum.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the Penn State undergrad doesn't automatically give you access to the professional geological um association.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Not automatically, but it does give you all of the courses that you are required to have for the state of Pennsylvania, which there's just a couple of them, but but it it's really geology focused.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So what is your I'm curious, Josh, because you've you've moved around a bunch uh now as well, born, you know, raised in the UK system, Canada, Switzerland, now back to Canada.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like what does the professional geology license kind of mean to you and are you interested in it?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm I'm for sure interested in it.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's very important for geologists, definitely for undergrads, especially in in Quebec.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think basically all Canadian geology undergrads, I mean the majority of them take geology because they want to get a job, often associated with geology, either environmental science or something to do with mining.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's a there's a lot of especially right now, there's uh we are we we have kind of almost a hundred percent employment directly out of undergrad.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: In the exploration, mining basically if that there's there's a surplus of jobs.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So people want a job.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's more that they turn them down.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: If they're not employed, it's because they're turning down jobs.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's crazy.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very good for the for the students here.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it takes a little bit of time for that to kind of be seen by the people in high school, but for them to realize that there's a like a quite good potential future.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, the the the PGO system is super important, especially in Canada.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think most of the big universities doing geology.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Their undergraduate um for the geology program is kind of oriented to give you access to the uh the PGO.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in Canada, like you get a PGL in each province and then you can transfer them, but officially you you can't you you gotta do a little transfer if you wanna work in another.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's kind of similar in the US.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And just one more point of intro, mainly for the listener here, is that we heard a lot of listener questions from people about this professional geologist licensure process in the US, and we've heard from people in internationally who are using our podcast library to study as a study guide for the exams, which we were kind of like, oh, that's interesting.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: We never thought of that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's focus on this, let's figure out what this actually is.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then we've also had people who have gotten listening to our podcast episodes uh approved for the continuing education requirement.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So once you get a license, you have to do most countries require you to do some a certain number of hours per year in what they call continuing education, and this has been approved.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Our podcast stuff has been approved in some states for that.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're listening and you're a professional geologist or you're studying for your exam, we'd love to hear from you.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a contact us link on our website, plangeocast.com.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Please let us know.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and if you have questions about you know sort of getting that content approved, we can we can put you in touch with people who have done that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: But we figured let's learn by doing.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have my license, not yet.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've started the process though, and we'll kind of have a series, like I said, uh, that discusses this content because it's incredibly important.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, I've sort of newly recognized the value of the professional geologist licensure because it doesn't exist in academia.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like you and I, Josh, we've been in the academic path most of our trajectory, and it's not really part of the requirements at all.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it is if you want to go work.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I've heard from employers who really value students who are at least starting the process to get their professional geology license.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of puts them on a uh elevates them one level above prospective students or applicants who've not done that process, right?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's them a bit more serious kind of.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great way to put it.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Much more serious and much more kind of go-getters.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like these are people who are self-starters in a way, um, is what I've heard.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So today, right now, I just want to think, I think Josh, we should just discuss like our personal experience a little bit, what we know about the licensure process in Canada and in the US for me, and you, the UK as well.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I'll just highlight here that the Geological Side of America has um they've written a couple interesting things about the professional geologist licensure process.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, they've put out position statements that say they support the licensure of professional geologists.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just recently, 2025, this happened.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's some great summary documents that talk about international licensure as well.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Esther Steisen, I've um Stein, maybe I'm not sure how to pronounce the last name, but um, director of international programs at the Geological Society of America, has uh a couple good write-ups that on on this topic.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So look those up if you're interested in more.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe we can go through time.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's your UK undergrad experience with professional licensure?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: To be honest, it wasn't it in the UK, it's not necessarily um a very well-known thing.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: The professional geologists, I mean, I think it's called chartered geologist.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, right.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: In the UK.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a requirement to work in the geosciences.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's not quite the same as in uh Canada and the US and and and a lot of countries where they do a lot of uh like in-house mining.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think the professional geologist associations are are often focused in countries where uh mining or extraction of resources are super important.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: In the UK it used to be important, but they've but I think I'm not sure if they've even got any mines.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's a bunch of disc discussing of doing it in like the tungsten tin belts and Cornwall and things like that, I know, but they've got a lot of old mines that could potentially be reworked.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: They've got a lot of old oil and gas, but it's all offshore.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's it's very mature, you can say.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean they know w where everything is and it there's big oil platforms already in place.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean there's there's a lot uh already known, I suppose.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's there's less risk to the public.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's I think that's uh I guess that's the main point.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean w of why why do why should we have a professional geologist association?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, I I I actually was initially quite critical on on this point.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why do we need a professional geology thing?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you need this extra license process?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the pitch that I've I've heard a bunch of different pitches and points about why we actually need this thing.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's a few that resonated really strong with me and helped kind of change my opinion on this.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And one of them was that in the US, we've gone through this big shift that universities uh used to have geology programs, now they've become environmental science, they've become planetary science, they've become a bunch of different names, and the course requirements have shifted as the title of the degree shifts, right?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: As you would expect.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, does a planetary geologist need, for instance, structural geology or field camp?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the the best argument, the strongest argument I've heard is that the professional geology licensure process is for geology.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it maintains that minimum qualification bar that says, yes, you've taken structural geology, you've done field camp, you are a geologist in the traditional word, even if your degree is technically a planetary science degree or environmental science or an Earth and environmental science degree.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's all these different variations on the degree name.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like maybe holding the ground in the term geology and what that means, which I thought was a really compelling pitch that made a lot of sense to me.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: That oh, okay, this makes sense.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: If universities are kind of doing their own thing and programs are doing their own thing, then somebody's got to say this is what a geologist knows, and and that's a good use case.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you think of that argument for the purpose of that?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think I mean I think that's I think that's an important, a very important point.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I actually in Canada, I I don't know if it's the same in the US, but the professional association, they actually have they have the rights to the the job title geologist.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So me and you at the moment, we're not officially allowed to be uh call ourselves geologists.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: There was a prof I was speaking to here just last week, and he was giving interviews about some some paper he published in the media and uh he actually got a letter in the post.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: He originally thought it was going to be kinda congratulating him about all his fancy research he's been doing from the Professional Geology Association, because he let his membership lap uh lapse.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh they were complaining that he was calling himself a geologist when he doesn't get the right.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: No kidding.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: That is ext- Okay.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's pretty extreme.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's a little pedantic, yeah.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a little like overkill.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: But uh but also like the point being that if you're out there in the world, like you're actually doing real geology for a road cut.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or there's all these examples in the past of geology done poorly with massive human impacts and loss of life and loss of capital and all sorts of of negative implications.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So like having a licensure process that says, okay, you have this stamp that says I'm a geologist, I'm trained in this, I know what I'm talking about, at least to some minimum requirement.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense to me, especially out in the world where you're where geology is.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: We talk a lot about on this podcast about how geology is everywhere and it's it's all around us and it's it's really important.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's taking that and making it a little bit more serious and a little bit more you know structured, which I think is good.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I think is really valuable.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So from my experience, I I think Canada makes sense.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a it's a resource economy, you know, there's people out there.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's I think you even have to be what is the term?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a um a qualified person or an expert?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I forget what the term is for the professional geo.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a professional geology license, but the thing you have to sign when you're writing like a a summary of a deposit, like I think this lithium deposit is this big because of these reasons.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a qualified person, maybe, is what you need for a 43101, the the mining exploration thing.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, whatever, whatever it is.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're related to the professional geology license in some way, shape, or form.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: In the US, so in the US, it's not as unified the structure.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: In the U.S., the the the way it works here for the students listening to this who've maybe never heard of what a professional geologist is.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's 31 states that have a professional geology licensing process, and the requirements vary by state.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Most states have uh reciprocity.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you get a license in Pennsylvania and you're gonna go work in Utah, you can get like a license exchange.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to kind of apply for it, make sure it's okay.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's a little bit of variability within the degree, the license process, but they're all governed by Asbog, this entity that kind of makes the exams.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk to people who've who've been on the board and been presidents of ASBOG as we go through this, but ASBOG is the association of the state boards of geology.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: So they make the exam, they give the exam to the states, and the states then govern licensure.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So when I apply to licensure to Pennsylvania, I'm applying to like the state board of engineers, geologists, and something else.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember what it is, but it's like a bunch of licenses all get sort of governed by one board of people who are kind of evaluating applications and deciding these things.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: But in the U.S., all of the professional geologists are required to take two exams.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: One exam soon after undergrad is the idea.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's the fundamentals of geology, and it's basically like quizzing you on all the exams or all the stuff you'd cover in a normal geology undergrad degree program.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Then you get your geologist in training certificate, and then you have to spend five years working under or with a professional geologist, and then you can apply to take the second exam, which is the PG exam, the PGO exam.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like more um more about the professional activities, a little bit more about legal things and things, such and such, such things like that.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then you also have to get letters of reference and stuff like that to get approved eventually for your licensure process.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: So this five years, Jesse, is that if if you start to do things like grad school, does that change?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on uh so oh I might have to look this, re-look this up exactly, but my memory is that it depends on the state a little bit, but you you can count, I think in Pennsylvania, if I remember correctly, it was up to two years of grad school can count towards those five years.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Different states have different things.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's usually some carve-outs for education, you know.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've been teaching at the grad level and undergrad level for a long time.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like a little separate track that for professors to get the PG license, like basically to say, okay, even though you weren't working for a professional geologist, you still have the track record that indicates you you are an expert in this field.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're ultimately writing an application to a board of people, so you can make arguments, compelling arguments, that even though I don't have this one thing, you know, I still should be considered for the professional geology licensing process.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I did not appreciate, and actually I just asked some of our undergrads here what they knew about the professional geology license and how they heard about it.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And very few of them have heard about it or knew much about it, which I think is a problem that probably needs to be a little bit rectified here uh at Penn State.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And because I know other universities in Pennsylvania basically have a capstone class, like one class the spring semester of their final year where they teach it's like a review class of all geology.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: You actually take the FG exam, and so you're kind of already part of your degree is getting you along the way to licensure, which I think is a compelling, a compelling thing to do for for undergrads.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we we just actually last week we had the director of the Professional Geological Association, Professional Geologists Association, uh come and give a presentation to our grads.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we had the same thing uh in the fall.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: We had there's like a pro forget the exact acronym, but the Pennsylvania like Association of Professional Geologists.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, these couple guys came, they worked in environmental science and came and talked about the the pros, the benefits of of getting the license, uh, how they think about hiring.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some of them have their own companies now, um, and are people making hiring decisions and are talking about, hey, we this degree is valuable, which I think resonates with the students um to say it makes you more marketable.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, have you, Josh, are you are you is it possible for you to get a license?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Have you like gone down that path?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: What's the status?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I guess I've started the process.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um, there's one thing you mentioned uh in the US about this this kind of carve out for for people in at the university um sphere that that's um it's very useful for you, I suppose.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: In Quebec, I discovered that they don't have this carve out.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: So just so because you've you've you have a deep expertise in geology, you've been uh teaching it and researching at a very high level, they won't necessarily recognize that as technological expertise.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: At the moment they will not recognize it, which is a bit frustrating.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I applied to the to start the process.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to have my undergrad um credited, because I did my undergrad in the UK.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I had all my courses credited.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then often the professors uh here, especially in my university, if they've done a postdoc, uh they might have done a postdoc kind of um that was partially with a company, maybe working um in economic geology somehow.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so there was a professional geologist associated with their postdoc after university work.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so then they kind of get around it by saying, okay, I've actually worked for a professional geologist during my uh postdoc.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Even though they were doing research, there was like a PGL involved.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: However, in my case, I did my postdoc in Switzerland, pure research, uh no professional geologists involved.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I was told that to for me to become a professional geologist, I have now so in Canada it's a uh well in Quebec anyway, it's three years post-university.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to work under uh uh a professional geologist before you can apply to become a PJO.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can be a geologist in training for those three years, and after that PJ.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh if you do a master's, uh one of the years goes away.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you do a PhD, two of the years goes away.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so you've only got one year left.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I've got a PhD, so I've actually I've got to do now one year of work under a professional geologist license.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a proposal for you, Josh.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: I will get my professional geology license.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can do this podcast with me for a year, and then we can say, look at this.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Look at look at all that work I've done.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about a bunch of geologists that we've made study guides for exams, like this is great, you know, like this counts.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to make sure that the Quebec PGL association acknowledges your um license.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, Pennsylvania.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they don't appreciate the Pennsylvania license.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: But that's actually that's actually a potential uh good idea.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: But that could work.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Could work.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think that could work.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds quite nice, yeah.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean I think I think that this this this brings up an interesting point, or I I think a good point is that at least the states that I've looked at, uh there's always room for I wouldn't say negotiation, I wouldn't phrase it like that, but you if you don't meet one of the requirements, you can always put a proposal in still.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can always put your application in and say, here's the other things, here's people that can validate my uh geological expertise.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: But in the US at least, you always have to take these couple exams and and prove those exams.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll talk to people who've been involved in the making of those exams and how they think about it, what you know, what their goals are to kind of get deeper into this professional geology licensure process.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Josh, it'd be interesting to kind of give a study guide or maybe not a study guide, but like a um a review of study materials because I did go through some of the study materials for this FG exam, and I I must say I was um surprised at how hard the exam was.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I I did study for a couple days right beforehand, but I I was not a thousand percent sure I was going to pass the exam at the end of it because I was like, ooh, there's some questions I definitely got wrong on that.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a long exam, it covers a lot of topics.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's some things, but you know, like you and I know, we get into a PhD and you get really deep expertise in a very specific thing.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I hadn't thought about you know, some of the basics in a long, long time since undergrad, really.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah, it's uh it's an interesting, it's a it's a very useful thing to take, I think, even if it's not um so in the US, so you have two exams.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got a a kind of geology competence exam, that's the one you've taken.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, the what's called the fundamentals of geology, the FG, yeah.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's so now you you have your you understand the fundamentals of geology.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's good, Jesse.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, good.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um after that, in Canada, at least, the other exam is more about legal questions.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know whether that's the case in the US.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not entir I haven't taken the PG exam.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't started any study guide material for it.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I do think it is a little bit more like that, or it's it's more in In the practice of geology, it's less like, okay, you know, what is the Devonian?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's more less about definitions and less terminology and more about what I understand.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm speaking out of turn a little bit here because I haven't dove in too much, but it is more the process of it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: How do you plan a field campaign?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think about you know things like that?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's more case studies, it's a little bit of stuff more like that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think to my knowledge, that's the that's the what the the the next exam is, the the PG exam, the professional geologist exam.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that Quebec, the the guy who came to give us a presentation, he mentioned that the in this kind of the professional exam, the last one, questions are more like what would you do in this situation?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this kind of thing.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: That type of stuff.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: So in it the exams that are required, are there two exams in Quebec?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it just that one, this final exam you're talking about?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: If your undergraduate is uh fine.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to get one more year and then you could be approved to take that exam.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that'd be fun.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, why don't we do that?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then we could stuff get do a study guide.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I've got to I've got to get my year with you approved first.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's right.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we'll do that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well we can do that.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds good.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: We'll do that and then uh and then move forward.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I don't know.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Any um any last thoughts, Josh, on like the the point of the or the pitch for the professional geology license process, certification process?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I like the idea that it's protecting the public.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I like in in Canada anyway, the PGL, um it's it's very expensive.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it's like in the US, but it's I mean to be to stay a member in Quebec.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember exactly, but it's almost$2,000.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: A year.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: A year.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, one note on that uh a comment and a question.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know that in the US there are employers who will like pay for study guides, pay for you to take your exam, because you know, it has market value, it has market value to the employer as well.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So for students listening to this, that is something to note that you can usually ask your employer, at least ask him, to see if they'll fund this stuff.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Does the same thing happen in Quebec?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's a steep price.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I to be honest, I don't know.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about different companies, I don't know how it works.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: It probably varies company to company for sure.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: If they care if you have a uh PG or not.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: But typically people with that, I mean, then they're getting high salaries.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's the other thing to know, I think, uh, that I heard about the the professional geology license is that in engineering, the PNG is a really big deal, and engineers are you know proud of the license, and and you know, that's a very valuable thing.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so the other pitch I've heard for having a professional geologist license is that it's easier to cross-communicate disciplinarily with and you know, if people have a PNG and you have a PG, you know, you're kind of talking at the at the level of peers.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where if there is not a licensing process and they're like, I'm talking to three geologists and they give me different answers.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: How do I know which one to trust?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's like a level of trust embedded into a licensing process that actually has value and there's a real point to it.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: I so I don't think thinking about this license is just some extra step to do that's meaningless.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think that's the right way to think about it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think thinking of it as something that has value even just for the the sort of for communicating with peers in different disciplines, like that is a valuable thing to have.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know that to do that better.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: In Canada, you it it comes with insurance.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, is that right?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's so I I'm I wonder if that's why it's so expensive.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's why it's so expensive.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you you actually your opinions, your signed documents that you've signed, those are insured, and that opinion is insured to protect both you and also customer.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's a valuable thing to have for sure for everybody involved.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean that's obviously it's very important.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think the last thing that's actually really good is this continual not continual assessment, but this idea that every two years you've got to, you know, keep up to date.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that I think that's exactly right.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Continued learning.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's called different things, but the yeah, the continued learning thing is what it's many of them are called.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the US, continued education, maybe.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's incredibly valuable.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just to keep up to date, go to a couple conferences, like be up to speed and kind of have to I tend to get frustrated about these types of things sometimes of be like, oh, this is just extra work.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it is extra work, but it's it's valuable as well sometimes.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Just to be like, yeah, I'm actually doing this stuff can be frustrating, but if you lean into it, it can be interesting as well.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, we've had people, like I said, kind of email us about the podcast and say that they've used our episodes for continuing education requirements, and it's c it's counted in some ways, and they really liked that because they got to learn about something they're interested in, do write-ups about it, and you know, keep uh honing the skills a little bit.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I know we I think you're right.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: We we kind of take a little bit of advantage of that in the uni here, in that we we we offer an international field school in the third year and we actually ask uh Oh, is this where you just got back from?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just got back from that in Morocco.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so we uh often will send out an email to all ex-students who are now professional geologists and we will say how about you come and do a course with us and you can come on the field school and then often the company will pay, and then we ask the comp the company will often like pay for the rental car or something for the field trip, and then there's the staff in the company who were previous students will do the field trip and will learn about local geology for a week, and that counts as the continual assessment.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what a great what it's really nice.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's great, yeah.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And also I'm surprised that they don't complain that you're not they're being taught by someone who's not a licensed professional geologist.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a very good point.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, in engineering, you're not allowed I don't know if it's the case in uh in the US, but in Canada, you can't be a PNG if you were taught by somebody the the core courses by somebody who's not a pnge.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, interesting.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's really interesting.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not sure what it I'm not sure how that works.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work for geologists at the moment because most university people are not PNGs.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Another question for you.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: How many academics what's the rough I know it's a big question to ask with no data, but uh, what is the your instinct on what is the proportion of academics that you know who have uh a professional license?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in my department, I can speak about that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: There are I think we have twenty-five props.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the massive spectrum of expertise, but there are two, okay.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: That have PC and that's how many people, yeah, okay.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's my experience too.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Is that it's limited, there's there's not many, and usually they're really tightly tied to places like economic geology deposit models where that license has value, and maybe they do some consulting in the summer for companies and stuff like that.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I've talked to people who do that who have a professional geology license, and and that's a really valuable skill set.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, this this brings me to another point that I was talking to some of our uh emeritus faculty who you know were a generation or two ago teaching, and they felt like the university really valued consulting as a huge value add because the stuff professors are going out, they're understanding the industry, they're making connections with students and employers, and they're just providing a bridge to like the economy in a way that research, pure research, in the vein of stuff that you know you and I did in our undergrad degree or did in our graduate school degrees, we're both getting more applied now, but peer research doesn't necessarily connect you right to industry and connect students.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt like that was a really interesting point, and we could probably, at least me myself personally, I that's part of the reason I'm getting more industry focused in research is for the student connection points and like you know understanding what the industry needs a bit more, and the professional geology license is a good way to do that uh as well.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, anyway, that's a space, a space we're we're both interested in, but it's it's um it's new for us, I guess.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we're it's new for us, yeah, yeah.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: We can just have like a shared journey.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, a shared journey.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk to people who are experts in it, um, and uh, you know, we'll go through the licensing process too and uh talk about that a little bit too.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, Josh, any last words, any last thoughts?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm good, to be honest.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: How about you?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think that's it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: We'll uh we'll say stay tuned because we we'll have more coming on this topic and look forward to it.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can follow us on all the social medias or at Plant GeoCast.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Shoot us an email, contact us looking at website, plantgeocast.com, and download our Camp Geo Mobile app.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: First link in show notes.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: We will have more content, uh, some really exciting developments there in the coming months.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: So download that and let us know what you think.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Shoot us an email or message on all the social media.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: See you, Jesse.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Peace, man.