Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #810 Structure vs Autonomy

Transcript

#810 Structure vs Autonomy · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now.
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Speaker 2: When it comes to the kids, They're just not ready
0:12
Speaker 2: for full fettered freedom, full fettered, unfitted, unfettered freedom. Full
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Speaker 2: fettered would be the opposite of unfettered. They're not ready
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Speaker 2: for unfettered freedom.
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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
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Speaker 1: and dad.
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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy
0:28
Speaker 2: Families dot Com, tea you and the host sorry co
0:30
Speaker 2: hosts of the fabulous primetime TV show and channel line
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Speaker 2: called Parental Guidance. I'm struggling Klye with this morning. What
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Speaker 2: is going on with me? I was feeling fantastic until
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Speaker 2: I have another microphone.
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Speaker 3: You're having a hard time this morning, I really am, but.
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Speaker 2: It sounds like you are too. That was a long gap.
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Speaker 2: So before we get into today's podcast, which is in
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Speaker 2: response to some questions that were asked on social media
0:57
Speaker 2: a post that we put up recently, I want to
1:00
Speaker 2: share some feedback that we've had from Renee Renee Fraser,
1:04
Speaker 2: who has kindly sent us an email. Podcasts at Happy
1:07
Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au. Now this is some positive
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Speaker 2: feedback about my new book, The Parenting Revolution. But I'm
1:14
Speaker 2: sharing this because it ties in the question that come
1:16
Speaker 2: up on social media that you're going to talk about
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Speaker 2: in a sex So this is what Renee said. She said,
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Speaker 2: just to thank you. I'm amom of two kids aged
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Speaker 2: eleven and eight. I'm an occupational therapist. I've been working
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Speaker 2: with kids for twenty years and I'm a teacher into
1:28
Speaker 2: the OT program at the University of Sydney and a
1:31
Speaker 2: PhD candidate parent interventions for kids with disabilities who are
1:35
Speaker 2: fussy eaters. Renee is a qualified, smart individual. She says,
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Speaker 2: reading The Parenting Revolution was music to my ears. It
1:43
Speaker 2: fits with my core so it was an easy read,
1:45
Speaker 2: but so great to reflect and continue to learn. I'm
1:48
Speaker 2: always talking about interventions that are responsive and your need
1:51
Speaker 2: supportive parenting matches with responsive feeding frameworks and occupational performance coaching,
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Speaker 2: which I use for parent coaching. The balance you strike
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Speaker 2: between being easy reading and providing great information based in
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Speaker 2: research is fabulous. Thank you for being evidence based and
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Speaker 2: being accessible to mainstream parents. Well, Renee, thank you so
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Speaker 2: much for your email. And if I said your name incorrectly,
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Speaker 2: I have to apologize. It could be Reen r E
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Speaker 2: N E. I just I hope that I got it right,
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Speaker 2: and if I got it wrong, you know who I'm
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Speaker 2: talking about. And thank you so much for the email.
2:21
Speaker 2: Isn't it so nice when people say nice things about
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Speaker 2: the book? If you haven't grabbed a copy, by the way,
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Speaker 2: the pairing Revolution, just buy wherever you buy books. It's
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Speaker 2: available right now and even people who are very, very
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Speaker 2: knowledgeable are finding it helpful, which makes me feel great. So, Kylie,
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Speaker 2: let's talk about this issue that came up on social
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Speaker 2: media in relation to the posts about the book.
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Speaker 3: So a couple of people, we are really struggling with
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Speaker 3: the idea of structure. We think about structure it's all
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Speaker 3: about boundary setting for our kids. And yet your book
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Speaker 3: is heavily focused on being autonomy supportive, needs supportive in
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Speaker 3: your parenting. And if autonomy equals freedom for our how
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Speaker 3: does structure work in with that? Because is that not
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Speaker 3: counterintuitive to what we're trying to achieve with our kids?
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Speaker 2: So structures is about limits and autonomy is about freedom.
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Speaker 2: How do they work together? Yeah, So the definitions really
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Speaker 2: matter here, and I think that it's a pretty easy
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Speaker 2: one to resolve, but it's worth spending about ten minutes
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Speaker 2: on because this will fundamentally change the way that we
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Speaker 2: raise our kids. Oh and by the way, maybe you
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Speaker 2: don't need to buy the book if you'll listened to
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Speaker 2: this conversation, I mean, if it's helpful, that's great. So
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Speaker 2: first of all, let's get clear on what structure is.
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Speaker 2: What structure means. Structure is what we provide to help
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Speaker 2: kids to feel competent.
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Speaker 3: So you talk about structure, and because I'm a very
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Speaker 3: visual person, I actually am going straight to a swimming pool.
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Speaker 3: You can't have a body of water without a structure to.
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Speaker 2: Hold it in great, great, great right.
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Speaker 3: So if I want my kids to actually be able
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Speaker 3: to enjoy the water, then I need a structure in
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Speaker 3: place to hold the water in there.
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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So and I think of a soccer field.
4:01
Speaker 2: It's similar sort of metaphor. That is, if you want
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Speaker 2: to enjoy a game of soccer or netball, you have
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Speaker 2: to follow the rules, like the game only exists because
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Speaker 2: the structure has been put in place, The rules and
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Speaker 2: limits have been put in place. Netball ceases to be
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Speaker 2: netball if you break out of the structure that defines netball.
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Speaker 2: For example, if you grab the ball and run at
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Speaker 2: your opponent. Suddenly it's not netball anymore. It's right or
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Speaker 2: you dribble, yeah, then it's basketball. And so structure is
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Speaker 2: another word for rules or limits or boundaries. It's the
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Speaker 2: structure that makes stuff work. And structure doesn't just apply
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Speaker 2: to sport. Structure applies to things like mornings and evenings.
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Speaker 2: Like when you have an established structure, mornings make sense
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Speaker 2: and the kids feel competent because they know what's expected
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Speaker 2: at any given time.
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Speaker 3: So the kids, for instance, they know that they wake
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Speaker 3: up at a certain time, they have breakfast at a
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Speaker 3: certain time, and then they've got a few jobs that
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Speaker 3: they need to do before they go to school.
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Speaker 2: Right, we're talking about structure. And as they satisfy the
5:02
Speaker 2: requirements of the structure, they feel competent. They actually feel
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Speaker 2: good about themselves, whereas if they don't know what's expected
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Speaker 2: or there is no structure, they often don't feel good
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Speaker 2: at all. They feel all legs of kimbo, like all
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Speaker 2: a bit funny about things.
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Speaker 3: Would you suggest then then maybe without that structure, they
5:19
Speaker 3: actually feel overwhelmed because there's too many options available to them.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and they'll often just end up sitting
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Speaker 2: on the couch and searing at a screen because what
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Speaker 2: do I do? It's overwhelming. I'm going to do whatever
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Speaker 2: is easy. I'm going to take the path of least resistance.
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Speaker 2: But structure doesn't just apply to things like school or
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Speaker 2: mornings or evenings or sport. It applies to how we
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Speaker 2: get along in our home, Like the way our relationships work.
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Speaker 2: There's a structure. We have structures and rules and limits
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Speaker 2: and boundaries around things like respect and kindness and helping
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Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. So structure is the kind
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Speaker 2: of clunky psychological term that researchers use to describe how
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Speaker 2: things work, what makes things make sense, How we can
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Speaker 2: make life predictable because that's how kids develop their sense
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Speaker 2: of competence, which is the need that we're trying to
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Speaker 2: support here. So if structure applies across the board, what
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Speaker 2: it's really about is creating a sense of predictability because
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Speaker 2: when the kids know that life is predictable, they can
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Speaker 2: then competently follow the path, They can follow the boundaries,
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Speaker 2: the limits, whatever it might be. Does that make sense?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I guess the next question is, then, how
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Speaker 3: does autonomy play within this structure? Because if I'm struggling
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Speaker 3: with this concept. Then the idea of creating these boundaries
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Speaker 3: is limiting my children from being able to utilize their autonomy.
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Speaker 2: Some people, when they hear me talking about autonomy, they
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Speaker 2: think that the kids are going to be independent, They're
6:45
Speaker 2: going to have complete freedom, they can do whatever they want.
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Speaker 2: That's not what autonomy or anarchy. Yeah, it kind of is.
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Speaker 2: It's not going to be healthy and because our children
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Speaker 2: developmentally are not at a place where they're ready for
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Speaker 2: that level of freedom. I mean, even as adults, there
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Speaker 2: are structures around us, like road rules for example.
7:01
Speaker 1: We have.
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Speaker 2: Laws and they provide structure to our lives. We have jobs,
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Speaker 2: they provide structure to our lives, all of these things,
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Speaker 2: we have things like Christmas. All of these things are structures.
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Speaker 2: They help us to have a predictable way of living
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Speaker 2: our lives. But we also have a high level of
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Speaker 2: autonomy as adults because we figured out how to navigate
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Speaker 2: life functionally using those structures, for the support that they
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Speaker 2: give us and also for access to things that we
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Speaker 2: wouldn't have without those structures. When it comes to the kids,
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Speaker 2: they're not ready. They're just not ready for full fettered freedom,
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Speaker 2: full fettered unfettered unfettered freedom. Full fettered would be the
7:38
Speaker 2: opposite of unfettered. They're not ready for unfettered freedom. They
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Speaker 2: need a wise, mature, experienced guide beside them as they
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Speaker 2: develop their own understanding of what the structures are, both
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Speaker 2: in our family and at school and the broader society.
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Speaker 3: So this reminds me of one of my very first
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Speaker 3: art lessons. Right, I was just an unstructured activity with
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Speaker 3: a friend. She had all the things out on the table, literally,
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Speaker 3: like there was pastels, there was watercolors, there was acrylics.
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Speaker 3: It was all there, and she sat me down and
8:10
Speaker 3: she said, you can do whatever you want. Overwhelming, And
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Speaker 3: I sat there for about five minutes right looking at
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Speaker 3: everything and thinking, well, I could do that, but I'm
8:20
Speaker 3: not sure how to use that properly. And I was
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Speaker 3: paralyzed in my ability to make a choice because there
8:26
Speaker 3: was just so much available to me, and yet none
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Speaker 3: of it made sense. And so it wasn't until she
8:33
Speaker 3: realized what was going on, and she says, ah, okay,
8:35
Speaker 3: hang on a sec and she ripped out a piece
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Speaker 3: of paper and she handed it to me and she said,
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Speaker 3: we're just going to draw the same flower, all of
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Speaker 3: us we're just going to give it a go with
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Speaker 3: a pencil. And as a result of doing that, we
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Speaker 3: shared their drawings. So we did a collaborative drawing. We
8:49
Speaker 3: each did a different step, and all of a sudden
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Speaker 3: it wasn't so daunting anymore. She created a structure around
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Speaker 3: what was available that I could then go, oh, I
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Speaker 3: can do that.
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Speaker 2: Here's the critical thing about autonomy, though, within the framework
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Speaker 2: or the structure that was provided. Now we've got some rules,
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Speaker 2: we're going to all draw this flower. You still had
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Speaker 2: a huge amount of choice. You had the opportunity to
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Speaker 2: independently determine, to self determine what color I'm going to draw,
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Speaker 2: what size I'm going to draw, what medium I'm going
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Speaker 2: to use. Am I going to actually paint this thing?
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Speaker 2: Or am I going to draw it? Am I going
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Speaker 2: to do it in black and white or color like?
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Speaker 2: You still had a whole lot of capacity to choose.
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Speaker 2: And so when it comes to structure and autonomy with
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Speaker 2: our kids, the idea is we create opportunities to develop
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Speaker 2: structure together with them having as much of a voice
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Speaker 2: as is reasonable for their age. I mean, you're going
9:45
Speaker 2: to give you your thirteen or fourteen, you're old a
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Speaker 2: whole lot more voice than you will your two or
9:49
Speaker 2: three year old. But they can still have a whole
9:51
Speaker 2: lot of voice.
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Speaker 3: When your kids are young. For instance, you could suggest
9:59
Speaker 3: you can wear this outfit or this outfit.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that kind of feels a little bit forced to me.
10:04
Speaker 2: Let me share an experiment that I write about in
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Speaker 2: the book in the Parenting Revolution, that might be helpful.
10:07
Speaker 2: I just think it's a profoundly useful tool for teaching
10:11
Speaker 2: how these things work together. So a researcher from Canada,
10:14
Speaker 2: his name is Richard Kesner. He's the nicest guy, soft spoken, kind, gentle,
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Speaker 2: just a really delightful human And Kesner and his colleagues
10:24
Speaker 2: went into a preschool and they got forty kids in
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Speaker 2: one condition and forty kids in another experimental condition, and
10:32
Speaker 2: they basically watched to see what would happen with a
10:36
Speaker 2: specific activity that they were doing. So for the first
10:38
Speaker 2: forty kids, they walked into the room and said, hey, guys,
10:40
Speaker 2: we're going to do a painting activity. And all the
10:42
Speaker 2: kids said, okay, fantastic. They remember these are preschoolers. They're
10:45
Speaker 2: aged four, maybe five for the oldest kids, but around
10:48
Speaker 2: four or five years of age. We're going to do
10:50
Speaker 2: some painting, and then they said to these forty kids, all,
10:53
Speaker 2: but we need to make sure that we don't make
10:56
Speaker 2: any mess while we're painting, so you can hear, here
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Speaker 2: comes the structure. They with the first group took a
11:03
Speaker 2: controlling approach. There was not a lot of autonomy involved.
11:07
Speaker 2: And so they said, if we're going to paint, we
11:10
Speaker 2: need to make sure that we don't get any painting
11:11
Speaker 2: on our clothes. So let's put our smocks on so
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Speaker 2: that we don't get any pain on our clothes. And
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Speaker 2: we don't want to get any paint on the table either,
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Speaker 2: do we, And so all the kids are they're having fun,
11:19
Speaker 2: like it's not hardcore authoritarian command and control. But they said,
11:24
Speaker 2: let's get the cardboard out and let's put it underneath
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Speaker 2: our paper so that we don't paint off the paper
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Speaker 2: and onto the table, because the cardboard will soak up
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Speaker 2: any extra paint. And they said, we also need to
11:33
Speaker 2: make sure that we don't mix the paint colors. So
11:36
Speaker 2: the rules are that when you finish with one color,
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Speaker 2: you need to dip that paint brush in the water
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Speaker 2: and get all the paint out of it, and then
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Speaker 2: you can get the water off and then dip it
11:43
Speaker 2: in the new paint color and keep on painting. So
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Speaker 2: they were quite directive in a gentle and kind way.
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Speaker 2: In this controlling condition. With the other forty kids on
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Speaker 2: the other side of the preschool center, they took a
11:57
Speaker 2: totally different approach. They said, guys, we need to make
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Speaker 2: sure we're not making a big mess, don't we What
12:02
Speaker 2: do you think we should do? And then in conversation
12:05
Speaker 2: with the kids, the kids said, well, we can't get
12:07
Speaker 2: pain on our clothes. And said, well, what do we
12:08
Speaker 2: do so that we don't get pain on our clothes?
12:10
Speaker 2: And the kid said, we've got to wear our paint smocks.
12:11
Speaker 2: And they said, you're bad. And they said, is there
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Speaker 2: anything else we need to make sure we don't get
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Speaker 2: paint on? And the kids said, we can't get paint
12:17
Speaker 2: on the table, and they said, well, how do we
12:18
Speaker 2: protect the table? And the kids came up with a
12:20
Speaker 2: solution to get the great big pieces of cardboard card
12:22
Speaker 2: stock and put it underneath the paper. And they said,
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Speaker 2: is there anything else that we need to be careful
12:26
Speaker 2: of when we're painting? And the kids said, yeah, we
12:28
Speaker 2: don't want to mix the paint up. And they said, well,
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Speaker 2: how do we fix that, and the kids came up
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Speaker 2: with the solution. So in both cases, we've got adults
12:35
Speaker 2: who are involved in a conversation with kids about creating structure.
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Speaker 2: But in one autonomy is being thwarted with adults who
12:43
Speaker 2: are saying, you need to do it like this and
12:45
Speaker 2: you need to do it like that, even though they're
12:46
Speaker 2: doing it kindly. And then in the other group, you've
12:49
Speaker 2: got this group of kids who are being guided to
12:53
Speaker 2: the solutions as the parents or the adults, I should say,
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Speaker 2: just ask questions like is there anything else we need
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Speaker 2: to do? What else would be important? So the answers
13:00
Speaker 2: are coming from inside the kids. Their autonomy is being supported,
13:04
Speaker 2: and the control or the structure is also being developed,
13:09
Speaker 2: but it's been developed as much as possible by the kids. Now,
13:12
Speaker 2: what Kesner found in this study is that the kids
13:16
Speaker 2: who were in the control group versus in the autonomy group,
13:20
Speaker 2: once the painting was finished, they were observed for a
13:23
Speaker 2: short period of time to see what they would do
13:25
Speaker 2: with their free time before the activity complete was fully completed,
13:29
Speaker 2: and the kids who were in the control group they
13:30
Speaker 2: kind of stopped painting and looked for other things to do,
13:35
Speaker 2: whereas the kids who had been in this supportive group,
13:37
Speaker 2: they didn't want to stop painting, they were happy to
13:39
Speaker 2: just do another painting. So their task persistence, their motivation
13:42
Speaker 2: for the task was higher when they were involved, when
13:46
Speaker 2: they had autonomy, when they had a sense of self
13:49
Speaker 2: determination in terms of developing the structure. And that's really
13:53
Speaker 2: what's at the heart of it. When something needs to
13:55
Speaker 2: happen to the extent that we can with our kids,
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Speaker 2: are we going to be controlling about out how it happens,
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Speaker 2: or are we going to support their autonomy? Are we
14:02
Speaker 2: going to explain here's the situation, what do you think
14:05
Speaker 2: we should do? Or are we going to say, here's
14:07
Speaker 2: the situation, now do this.
14:09
Speaker 3: So I guess my point about giving them a few
14:12
Speaker 3: options instead of multiple options is just like me being
14:15
Speaker 3: in that craft room and having all of the mediums
14:20
Speaker 3: available to me and feeling overwhelmed. When we've got really
14:23
Speaker 3: young kids, providing them with a few options as opposed
14:26
Speaker 3: to the whole wardrobe.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You might say, it's pretty cold
14:30
Speaker 2: outside because it's winter, so we've got some warm clothes
14:34
Speaker 2: here and some warm clothes here, which ones do you
14:36
Speaker 2: think will be best?
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Speaker 3: So what I'm hearing from you is that structure actually
14:41
Speaker 3: underpins our children's ability to be able to exercise their
14:45
Speaker 3: autonomy because they understand the rules and therefore they feel
14:48
Speaker 3: like they've got a level of competence, yes, to be
14:51
Speaker 3: able to follow through with what needs to happen.
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Speaker 2: And the beautiful thing about this process is it's relationship building,
14:57
Speaker 2: so it supports all of their basic psychological needs. It
14:59
Speaker 2: helps and to feel close and connected and understood and
15:02
Speaker 2: seen and hurding valued. It helps them to feel like
15:05
Speaker 2: life is predictable and they understand why things are happening
15:07
Speaker 2: because they're involved in the process of developing the why
15:11
Speaker 2: and how, and they get to have a voice that
15:15
Speaker 2: autonomy is supported. I think it's a really important conversation
15:18
Speaker 2: to have. That's really what the whole book is about.
15:21
Speaker 2: I mean, I've tried to summarize two hundred and forty
15:23
Speaker 2: pages in ten twelve.
15:25
Speaker 3: I wish you had have done that before I read it.
15:27
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you have. This is exciting that
15:29
Speaker 2: you've read one of my books. Anyway, what do you
15:30
Speaker 2: mean this is, I've read them all.
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Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
15:33
Speaker 1: Well.
15:33
Speaker 2: I usually tease people when I give my presentations and
15:36
Speaker 2: say that you like my shortest one what your child
15:38
Speaker 2: needs from you, You know, the one that takes me to
15:39
Speaker 2: for a long time, as it was the only one
15:41
Speaker 2: that you'd ever read. But you have read them now
15:43
Speaker 2: and I probably should stop saying that because it makes
15:45
Speaker 2: it sound like you're not involved than you are, and
15:47
Speaker 2: I love that you are. Thank you so much, Justin
15:49
Speaker 2: Roll and our producer for making the podcast sound the
15:51
Speaker 2: way it sounds. We also appreciate Craig Bruce, our executive producer.
15:54
Speaker 2: If you want more about making your family happier, please
15:56
Speaker 2: visit our website Happy families dot com dot au, or
16:00
Speaker 2: have a copy of this fabuless book called The Parenting Revolution.
16:04
Speaker 2: It by again by yours truely