Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / Ara Tucker: The Architecture of Advantage | 100 Stories Ep. 12

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Ara Tucker: The Architecture of Advantage | 100 Stories Ep. 12 · 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project

• Paige Williams: Welcome to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm your host, Paige Williams. Come along with me as I build the emerging field of narrative intelligence by learning from 100 thinkers, creators, researchers, people whose lives have been shaped by profound change. Together we are exploring a question at the center of how we become who we are. How malleable are the stories we live by, and what does it take to change one? Across these conversations, we're Examining the stories we inherit, the stories that become our identity, and the human capacities that allow us to recognize, question, revise, and live beyond them. What I learned through this series will help shape the field of narrative intelligence and the transformational book that I am writing about it. This is 100 Stories. Today I am speaking with Era Tucker who has helps people understand the transformational power of their story and that all of our advantages can be architected. I invited Era because I we speak the same language. We don't even know one another yet, but we're about to get to know one another right now. And I can't wait to dig in and learn more about how she helps people understand their story and how she thinks about narrative intelligence. Welcome. Thank you for being here. Ara Tucker: Thank you for having me. I'm super psyched. Paige Williams: I want to jump right in with your own transformational story. Just think through the catalog and one that a time in your life where something changed for you. And has the way that you tell that story changed over time? Thanks. Ara Tucker: Ooh, that's a good one. But how it's changed. So this one is actually in the rear view by a few years. I think about my first career inflection point. So To give a little context, when I was an undergraduate at Princeton University, I was an art history and visual arts major, focused on documentary storytelling, using primarily video and photography. And when I thought about what was I gonna do when I graduated, I was pretty certain that I was not going to be a professional artist, which is a little ironic because I'm married to one. But I knew that there was something around Wanting to be able to help people continue to tell stories. And so in 2001, I decided I would go to law school. And I I figured out pretty early on that I didn't love anything having to do with the law plus entertainment. And so I was like, what else am I gonna do? I have to figure out a new strategy here. I was like, okay, now I understand how I could go from visual arts to law school. About a year and Months in, my girlfriend at the time we had been dating for seven years. We both went to Princeton. She was at Princeton working in the admission office after graduation, and she loved it. And I was coming home like not happy, but she was working like almost twice as hard, making half as much, and she was like fired up. And I was like, wow, that's nice. And the breaking point came when she got into business school. I was so happy for her, and I said. I'm not taking the California bar. It would have been so easy, Paige. I could have transferred to the firm's Palo Alto office. Like I wouldn't have had to end up in my life. But I was like, there's something in me that just said I can't do this. So anyway, I said, you go do your thing, I'll figure out something here. And I was like, I immediately have to talk to lawyers who are not practicing law. Because I cannot imagine another day doing this thing that I don't want to do. And so that's how I ended up at the provost office and on and on. But I had this naive thought in two thousand six that Law firms will always be there because the economy was doing really well. It was like money was just being thrown at young associates. I left for a job that was not a permanent position at the time. It was half the money. I didn't even really know what it was. I just knew it was going back to a place I loved to learn something new. And then I got a call from the law firm that said, hey, we're about to hire our first director of diversity. Would you ever consider this? So I'm gonna pause it there. But to me, in terms of you ask like, how has that story evolved? How I tell it? I think early days I had no I had no idea except That I had always had parents who had jobs and professions that they really enjoyed. And my stepmom told me early on, you don't run from something, you run toward it. And my mom always said, you know, what you do or where you go to school, that doesn't define who you are. And so I think early days I was trying to cling to those lessons of like, okay, I'm not running away. I really am running toward wanting to be interested in higher ed. I was afraid. But I think that. But now I realize that the naivete was actually powerful because if I had known what was going to happen in 2008 with the economy, the smart conservative money would have said, stay at the law firm, maximize your economic output. But I know that I probably would not have been the candidate who would have been a good fit for that next role because I would have been doing something I didn't love. I wouldn't be growing and expanding and thinking about things in a new way. So it's kind of in a nutshell. Paige Williams: Okay, keep going. How did you get to where you are now from that moment of diversity at a law firm in 08 to Ara Tucker: Yeah. Paige Williams: 2026? Like catches up real fast. What happened? Ara Tucker: Well in a nutshell, what happened? I went to that so One of the the good things about loving where you are and being asked to do something new is that at least for me, I asked a lot of tough questions because I had nothing to gain from leaving where I was, right? I had everything to lose on some level. Like I loved it, I love the pace, I love the people, I love the environment. And I knew the law firm. I said, okay guys, like be real with me. Is this a job? Like I've never it's 2008, right? Like I don't know what what this diversity thing is. Paige Williams: Yeah. Ara Tucker: And you know, it was great because they were they were not put off by the Questions, they said, no, this is this is real, and you know, our chair he's really invested in doing this, and you would report to him and you know, really have free reign to help us think this through. And I said, Okay, that's a different story. I said, You know, do I have to practice law? And they said no. I was like, sign me up, I'm there, done. Bye, Princeton. And so I, you know, I I say it in a little bit. Of a flip way, but I was excited because after four plus years of doing being sort of the the face and the the main brain on this thing, that's pretty challenging. I was ready to be part of a team. And so I happily went to Morgan Stanley and joined the diversity team first focused on communications and operations. And then expanded into the employee engagement piece of things. I and I guess I'm somebody who likes learning. And once I'm done learning, I'm like, okay, what's next? And I started to have this vision of like, there is a space and a place for me. It's just maybe not here, but I've Gotten a lot of tools that may help me get to the next place. The next place is where all the story collides, it's Audible. And the position wasn't a diversity position. It was actually come and be the first head of employee experience. Again, I was like, what is that? Tell me more. And that was all I needed because it was like, give me the raw material, give me a platform, and give me a company that really cares about not only what it what it does in the world, but what it means. And it really felt like a truly mission-driven place. And this was right before COVID hit, right before all of the social justice stuff in the US hit. And I think I had before those two things happened. I probably would have stayed if if the world had not had all of those things happen, I probably would have been very comfortable being, you know, Anne's number two indefinitely. But there is something about the pandemic that made me feel a sense of urgency around how can I make a bigger impact or how can I continue to challenge myself because tomorrow is certainly not promised. And I guess last October, when I had a chance to think about was I gonna jump on to the next CPO train, Chief Beep Officer train, or was I gonna start listening to that voice that had kept me going and doing things on the side of my desk, like podcasting, like getting my coaching certification, like writing three novels? Like all these things around storytelling and helping others. I was on three two boards, now I'm on three. So what if you did all of that like all the time? Like think about how much time and space. And it was scary. Like I I will say to this day, like that is where you find me in this very early journey of saying, what if you weren't afraid? What would you be able to do? Who would you be able to serve? And let's just see. Let's just see. It's not a one-way door. Paige Williams: So you shifted out of C P O and into coaching and podcasting in October of twenty five? Ara Tucker: Yeah. So podcast I launched the podcast in August of last year. And I remember my dad saying to me, like, what are your goals for this? And I'm like, if I do like ten episodes, Dad, I don't know, it'll be like, whatever. But it you know, fast forward I've done twenty plus conversations and Released a limited audio series called Nepo Baby. But really, really trying to think about how does this, all of this experience, get translated into building something that is sort of by me without all of the support, but also weights that come with operating within what somebody else has built. Paige Williams: Mm. So one thing I heard over and over in your story is you feel a tug to do something different. And you you jump, you do it. What is the narrative in your life or the narrative structure in your life that gave you the ability to shift directions so many times and keep changing? Because not everyone is that flexible. Ara Tucker: You know, it's it's fine. I'm laughing at flexibility. I think I'm actually, I don't ever think of myself as someone who likes change, right? Like I I actually like knowing what the day is going to have happen. I but everything I've done, there's no there's no control when you're a junior associate, there's no control when you're leading an HR function. Like the world is unpredictable. I I mentioned my parents. I think I've had really good role models for You don't have to be one thing, but whatever you do, you should do it with a sense of purpose and joy and generosity. And I think that when I the indicators that I'm losing some of those things, I remember at the law firm, it's kind of like that you couldn't pay me enough to do that. And it's like, wait a minute. You're being compensated just fine. It has nothing to do with that. It has something to do with your your fuse is getting shorter and shorter. Let's focus on that. I also think I'm really fortunate to have a lot of supportive people in my life, you know, people who say you can do whatever you put your mind to and if you can't do it, it is okay to ask for help. So you know that's those are some of the things. Paige Williams: I'm sure you do as well. I work with a lot of women who are about our age and Ara Tucker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Paige Williams: have achieved a lot in their life and they're so scared to take off the golden handcuffs and jump into their creative self. How do you coach a woman through that midlife transition where she's like, you know what, the money really doesn't matter, but it really matters, but I have these other things calling me that's calling my soul or heart, my desire, but I just I'm not, I'm in the hallway, I'm not exactly ready to like drop the golden handcuffs and and give back the key. What do you say to a woman in midlife who's in that position? Ara Tucker: I might start to say, how did we get here? Like Paige Williams: Mm. Ara Tucker: what are what are some of the messages? And and again, you know, I think financial considerations, we'll assume that those truly are not a consideration because we all have our financial needs to meet. But really like what are my what are my values around worth judgment? I think of the dinner party test, right? Like so I mentioned my wife is an artist and when I we first met, right, I was doing the diversity thing and you know we go to these parties And people are like, so what do you do? And I'd and they'd be like, what is that? What do you what? You know, is that a real job? and you when you're a CPO, like, sure, people under it's legible. There is a seduction, and you if you look on LinkedIn, folks will have X, you know, company name, X position name. And I'd be curious about like what are the what are you holding on to? Like you're in this hallway, you're at a threshold. What are you afraid you might have to walk through without? Right? Like what might happen if you maybe left some of that behind? Or what if you knew that you could like throw it off at any time once you're through that doorway? For the next thing, I often say you aren't gonna be ready until you're actually doing it, because doing it is how you get ready. Like there are very few things that we're actually trained for before we actually do it. I mean, flight time maybe, right? Like there are certain things where we want people to have a number of hours before they're doing it, but you still have to start. So I I just think about just start. Don't Paige Williams: Yeah. Ara Tucker: don't get to the end, just take a step. Paige Williams: Yeah. And in your own experience, when you've crossed these big threshold moments into your next project or next job, how does it expanded you? How does it make you feel whenever you have enough courage and willingness to shift and change? Ara Tucker: I mean never say never, but to date I do not regret any of the the things I did either with a lot of knowledge or maybe not as much as I should have had. Because I think, you know, if we're lucky, life is long and as we get farther and farther, it's you know, things do get clearer in the rear view. And that and I'd love to say that I've had a lot of stops along the way. You know, I I'm I get bored on straight highways. Like I I wanna pull off and see what's what's going on. So I guess it's you're finding me in a moment where I think that idea of building courage and speaking truth to what you want. No matter what the context and not being afraid to ask for what you truly want versus what you think the moment requires. I think to me, it's almost like those are the moments I'm most proud of or feel best about, even if the outcomes aren't what I thought. I feel like those are kind of the things that I look for. Like, am I speaking my truth and am I getting larger in the world or am I making myself smaller? Because I think that's what people want. Paige Williams: Did you build your capacity for tolerance or acceptance of change by doing this over and over and over like weightlifting, like building a muscle? Ara Tucker: I think maybe and I think starting early helped. I Paige Williams: Mm. Ara Tucker: don't know what I I mean, I don't know, obviously, what I would feel or be able to do if I didn't build that flexibility at a moment that was early in my career where it felt like it was a very big move, but it it wasn't as big as it might have felt when those handcuffs were a lot more golden and with a lot more of the Paige Williams: Yeah. Ara Tucker: things that the the handcuffs can buy. And I remember running and I took a fall And now I I sort of think of that as like a reminder that like when you are a kid, a skin knee or two, it's just like another day on the playground or another hour on the playground. And so I think there is this like reminder that it does take reps. But also that like our flexibility might change. Some people get more flexible. I'm not, you know, but for me, like I know that I feel like I have more and more to lose. And so this conservative, like, well, maybe I have to remind myself of that early. Like, I'm leaving the law firm, they'll always be there. You know, I have to remind myself that that actually helped me get on this journey of training for change and uncertainty and ambiguity. Yeah. Paige Williams: I love the paradox that you're like, I don't like change, but let me tell you about all the times I've changed my career. Ara Tucker: You're gonna have to ask my wife. I maybe maybe in couriers it's fine, but I don't know. I mean I think there's that predictability. The thing about it though is, you know, you you you learn enough, but you start to see that life is a series of patterns. and cycles, right? So I remember 2008, but I also remember 2016. I remember 2020. But you know, like, so when you're in the a work setting especially, like I I didn't realize how much I had grown or seen until I had team members who were earlier in their journey and really freaked out. Like, my God, this is like the world is ending. It's never gonna be great again. And it's like, well, usually it is. Usually it is. Paige Williams: Yeah. Ara Tucker: And here's what we do while we're down here. Here's how we think about it. Paige Williams: Let's talk about systems of advantage and You you say once you see how advantage is formed and I want to know what the definition of advantage is, you can't unsee it. And when I hear those words I might immediately go to allegory of the cage cave. But tell me what tell me what you mean by that. Ara Tucker: when I said I'm gonna start this podcast, my f my first two guests, my mom was my first guest, and then my dad and my stepmom were my second guests. And I remember telling people, I'm gonna interview my parents, and they're like Okay, like they s the people who knew me were like, wow, that's interesting, I'm curious. And then other people like, you're gonna talk to your parents, really? That's brave. You sure you want to do that? I'm like, of course I do. But I think what what I learned through those conversations and those were the longer form I'm here to podcast conversations was I was really curious and I I knew some of their stories because I had done a documentary in college called Black Like Us and I was asking different inter intergenerational group of affluent or you know who had become affluent African Americans questions about like how did they get here, what were they doing, and all these things. But I realized that Their lives before they had me were full of all of these lessons that while they didn't tell me actively when I was growing up, were informing how they parented me. So I'll give you a very clear example. My mom went to Cornell, as did my stepmom, different years, but and she said when she got there, so she was used to being, you know, top of her class, very smart, and when she got to Cornell, it was challenging. And she remembered thinking, like, well, I failure is not an option. So I'm gonna have to ask for help. And I'm gonna find study buddies and I'm gonna go to office hours. And like this idea of saying, asking for help is excellence, it made me realize like all those times she got me tutors, she got me like, you know, extra lessons, she got me like in the camps that did the things before the things you needed to know. Then people like, why are you going to Kaplan? You're like a seventh grader, like we you know, weird stuff like that. But I think, and my dad, you know, talking about a teacher asking him if he had actually written the paper because they weren't sure, like, how could somebody think this way? And he's like, But I had gone to a family friend who was like a librarian and a teacher, and they helped me think differently. And so I guess what I realized through those conversations and try to put them to bite sizes is that. There were parts of me that always just felt like me. But the more that I really sat back and thought, like, well, how did you know how to walk into a corporate environment and ask these questions as an early career person? Because I saw my dad building a company, because I saw my mom and my stepmom working in corporate America. Like my mom took me to take your daughters to work day before it was take your kids to work. And her idea was I thought that taking you on business trips around the world or showing you how drug development worked, it would enrich your lives. And it did, because I got to see things before I was responsible for them. And so when people would compliment me and say, you're really smart, like you know how to like navigate this thing, and I was like, yeah, I'm really smart. And how to navigate this thing. But as I started to do it, I started to realize that I had early proximity, so I had exposure. I became fluent in the things that I had the early exposure to, like reading. Like I my mom forced me to sit down every day the summer before kindergarten and we were going to learn how to read. Right. And now I love reading. But and then that translates into ease, and people start to see, like, she's really like cool walking into a gallery and asking them, like, how much is that? Or like, why is she cooler than me in terms of feeling like comfortable? And that gets read as talent, and then you're rewarded for it. And I guess I just felt like we think a lot about advantages in terms of financial resources or family businesses, whether you know, Hollywood or not, or you know, like inheriting things that you haven't yet earned. And for me, the way I think of advantage is: what are the sets of either experiences or viewpoints or perspectives that have enabled you to unlock. The opportunities that you want. And on the flip side, how might those things have influenced some of those other voices in your head that say, mm, nah, no? So I'm trying to, I'm trying I'm still thinking about it, but I'm really trying to think about a way that we can use what shaped us and how others experience us and just have a more integrated, authentic map blueprint for how we approach decisions and what we want our lives to look like. Paige Williams: Well and tell me more about the piece that once you see it you can't unsee it. Ara Tucker: So the reason I say that is, you know, so my wife, I mentioned she's an artist, my dad went to Cooper Union for graphic design. It's like a a pretty known school for the arts, and he he also collects art. And, you know, so we have family conversations, a lot of them around art. And sometimes I intern him for him at his business, Tucker Contemporary Art still. And I remember my wife saying to me, she said, You're a Nepo baby. And I was like, no I'm not. Like I'm I'm not, we're not ultra wealthy, like we're not famous. Like how am I a Nepo baby? And she said, because you have been since you were, before you were even verbal, your father immersed you in this ecosystem to the point where you're now showing up, you're a board member at a museum, like you you make art, you can talk to artists, you can talk to dealers, and you're not, it's almost like second nature. It's like in your blood. And I was like, hmm. That's I'd never I I had actually never seen that or thought about it. And I had never thought about it in relation to someone who might not have had that same exposure. Right. And it goes along with being more empathetic because I think that once I realized, and it's the same way in corporate America, where one of my team members at Audible asked me, why don't you just tell us what to do? And and I was curious about that. I said, what do you mean? And it's like, well, you're you're always asking us our opinion or you're curious what our thoughts are, and you're not just like, go do this. And I had as a manager, I had to really think a little more carefully about like, is this an effective leadership style, or am I doing the thing that was done at a law firm? Right, like more of a Socratic apprentice model. And it made me more aware that not everybody had had that kind of work experience. So once again, it was kind of for me, I felt like teams thrive when you have a manager that wants to like bring people around the table and get questions answered. But I realized that A, not every environment is suited for that. Every moment is suited for that. So I had to learn how to flex and change. And it's like in Hogan, right? Like strengths overused can become derailers. And I so I think about advantage as core things that we have, but we have to be aware of how they're functioning both in our lives and for the lives of people around us. And what are the ways that we can be more sensitive or empathetic to people are bringing different sets of advantage? And how do we actually Become more transparent. Because I could have said to my wife, nah, you don't know what you're talking about, right? But because I was able to sort of be curious about like, well, tell me how that's showing up, I was able to start seeing it in other aspects. So it's like, wait a minute, what did my mom and my stepmom teach me about being an African American woman in corporate America? Like, why am I not getting tripped up over interactions? Like, why, how do I know when to talk to somebody outside of the office and not, you know, bring it all to my man? You know, like how do I know these things? So I guess that's that's how I think about it, but you know, I'm still I'm still working through it and and trying to see how it lands for other other folks. Paige Williams: Yeah. So when you're when you're thinking about advantage and others advantages and you're working with people on them, does everyone have a separate list or is our list of of advantage the same? How do they change? How do they how do you discern who has what advantages or or if there's a limiting or a hidden belief behind an advantage, bring it to light? Ara Tucker: So I would say that I I have not come up with the five advantages you need to thrive in the world, because A, like what world? What does thrive mean? So all of these like definitional clarity is really important to me. But I I think what I am trying to do is create a space for people to think within my life, for instance, like what was around me? Maybe not like I'm not saying you have to be five and remember when you were five, but what was around me for like my formative years, however I define that. What were some things that I was just absorbing and not really like sh you know, not even conscious of? What are some things that people are always saying? You're really good at that. Like, so just creating a space for people to create their own particular blueprint is what I call it, right? Like Paige Williams: Yeah. Ara Tucker: have a space. It you don't have to physically write it, or or a mind space, however you capture self-awareness. Let's be curious about some of these aspects and let's be thoughtful about how they may be serving, you know, talking about this hallway, we're in the hallway again. What are some that I might need to let go of? Like you mentioned be like for me, if people are always saying you're super, you're super good at this thing, and I'll I don't know, if I stop doing something that I'm super good at, does that mean that I'm less me? No, it just means that maybe I have to work to find out if I can be super good at it or not. And it's okay, right? It doesn't mean that that we have to stay with it. I think what your question is, like, I think our architecture is always evolving. My mom loves home renovation. I do think that it, you know, sometimes you have to think like, can I build on this house anymore? Is it a room? Is it a floor? Or do I need to find a new location, a new site, start something else? You know, I've lived in a colonial, maybe now I need a mid century. Like we could take it as far as we want, but this idea of like we are we are just as malleable as the world outside and it's up to us to figure out how we want to shift and change and at what pace, right? I I also feel like pace is important. I don't I don't want people to emerge thinking, well, it takes five minutes or five years or five decades. Everybody, as you know, is so different. Paige Williams: Yeah. In your experience, how malleable are the stories that we live by and what does it take to change one? Ara Tucker: I think it probably depends, right? Like I think some stories some stories get repeated, right? Like think about oral history. Like some families, there's like the Ara story. I remember when Ara was like it. And it's just like years and years and years of having other people creating that as part of your lore, so to speak. Or you're at a company for 10 years, and it's like, Arrow's like. Sometimes when you have the chorus reinforcing the story, I think sometimes that one is it's more visible, but it also might feel more dangerous to drop it or to change it because you got an audience, you got fans, right? I think those are the different stories because at least you know them, right? And you can kind of like r react or rage whatever against or embrace them. I think the stories that are harder Are the ones that are like running in the background that we we don't even know? Like until Hillary said, you're an epo. Like, if you don't know what is causing you to make decisions, what is causing you to feel safe in certain situations, then it's really hard to change, right? Like you people say, like, name it to claim it. Like I think it's true. If you don't know, and so some of the work I do also is let's just start brainstorming. Like let's think about preoccupations. Like I had a creative writing teacher who did this exercise with us and I'm so grateful to her, even though at the time I was like, why can't we just do free writing? Why are we doing these exercises? But like what shows up when you say I wish or I love or I hope or I hate? Like to your point about like is there a set list? I think we each have our own set list. But until we do the work of the pattern matching, it's hard to know how set the list is or if the list is actually as as clear as we might have thought it wasn't, you know? Yeah. Paige Williams: Hmm. How do systems of advantage shape the stories people believe about what is possible for them? Yeah. Ara Tucker: They do. They do. No. so When I was going back and forth to Morgan Stanley to Brooklyn, where we lived once I moved out of Princeton, must live in New York, I was writing the series of vignettes based on this sort of shared story my wife and I had come up with about this little girl walking through Brooklyn. And it eventually became the novel that I wrote called How to Raise an Art Star. And so I I mention fiction because for me it's a way of defying physics and gravity and pushing myself. To think about what are some of the stories that if I had all the power in the world to write the world as I saw it or as I wanted it to be, like what are the parameters of the worlds I would build? And in some ways, fiction I think has helped, and loving stories has helped give me that courage to be a little more malleable in my own life. Paige Williams: Do you believe that we can write whatever story we want for ourselves? Are there Ara Tucker: So I think Paige Williams: ceilings on that based on our advantages or or if if we have advantages, do we have disadvantages? Ara Tucker: We all we all have both, I think. I'm pretty confident. Even the most quote unquote advantaged person may have the disadvantage of nobody understanding and being very, very lonely. As someone who has self-published three books now intentionally because of the distribution challenges, I will say this. I think we can all write our own stories. There is no barrier to having an imagination, right, within reasoning. I think how our stories get reproduced or distributed or believed. I do live in the world of real life and know that There are some stories that just don't have the same permanence, the same impact, the same legibility, the same volume as other stories. And on some level, that's also why I feel really called to do what I do, and also really honored that you're doing this project and you've asked me to be part of it, because I think there is still community in being individuals. And sometimes we need Other people who are very much themselves to help us have the courage to be ourselves and not feel like we have to be like the crowd, but to know that there are a crowd of people who similarly want us to be our best, whoever we want to be, and wanting to share and amplify. Like I think every storyteller needs a megaphone, and they are usually not their own megaphone. There's usually a reader or a publisher or a marketer or just a huge super fan. Who says, you must hear this? And when we get that, it's such a it's such a joy, it's such a joy. Paige Williams: Yeah. Once once someone recognizes their advantages, does Ara Tucker: Yeah. Paige Williams: it require them to act, behave, do differently? Ara Tucker: Well, I think we have responsibilities to ourselves, right? It's like this idea of the oxygen mask. I'm thinking about the woman in the hallway that we've been talking about. I think you now have a a choice to say, what am I gonna do with this? Am I gonna stay here and kind of lament what isn't? Or am I gonna think, well, what could be? Like, you know, I have a niece, and early on it was like Elma would say, I wonder, what if? Let's try. Like, I think that is our personal. maybe not responsibility, but it makes life better if you live in a sense of like growth mindset and there is opportunity even when it looks really dark and bleak. My sort of and then I would love it if If we could be more transparent, you know, about how we got to where we are, what worked, what didn't work, like when did we go and get help? I kind of joke on these shows, these like reality shows. I'm like, what's happening off-screen? Like they say that they're like living off the grid, like making their own clothes, but like off-screen, there's a house across the street that they own that their mother lives in, and she's taking care of the children and the like clothes you're making. is like a clothing line that you have monetized. I'm just using that as a gross example. But like there is always something off-screen for people. And I think the more we are comfortable making the aperture bigger. in service of like it's not always easy. And then not talking about uncomfortable oversharing, but just sharing like a human. I think that is when our collective architecture of advantage becomes a whole society, a whole neighborhood, a whole development where we want to live together and we can all feel comfortable doing our renovations when we need to. Being, you know, saying we're done for a moment. Moving and having people throw us a going-away party. You know, it's You've made me take my architecture analogy way farther than I ever have. Paige Williams: Well. Ara Tucker: But I do, I do think there is for me the thing that I am hoping, and similarly with my podcast, I'm here too, I want people to feel a sense of community and connectedness, even in their most disconnected moments. Paige Williams: Why? Ara Tucker: Because I think I've I've both benefited and I've also known what it's like, you know, growing up and realizing that I was gay and Wondering, and my senior thesis in college is about like the private and public spaces of coming out, but like this idea of growing up and trying to be the best little girl in the world, to try to literally mask what I felt was something that shouldn't be, and then realizing the peace and like the weights that came off once I was able to just be all of me and not think in compartments. And I think we all It doesn't have to be a coming out story in that way. But I think we all have parts of ourselves. And Kenshi Yashina talks about covering. Like there are parts of ourselves that we're always maybe covering away. And I just think that the more we see different models or hear different stories, like I didn't think about my hair as something I was particularly anxious about or not anxious about until I pushed myself to say, well, I've done the coming out story like as gay. I've done the like I'm black and like both. like is there something else and I hadn't thought about the fact that I relaxed my hair for much of my life, even past the point where it was painful. Paige Williams: Mm. Ara Tucker: And then I got to this point where I s I think Black Panther came out. And I was like, wow. Look at all of these women with like non-chemically processed hair and short hair. And and I started to say, like, maybe I should cut my hair. And my my wife said, Do it. And she's not African American. She's white and she and I was like, really? And then I said, Well, will I look too much like my dad? And she was like So, but you know, there was this anxiety, there were lots of anxieties. So I but I cut it and I remember thinking, Okay, you cut it, you're fine, and then it was like The Monday of going to work and I was working at Audible. And again, this is like these are like little things I hadn't even thought about until I thought about it, right? Like I was so used to having chemically processed hair and like a, you know, a bob. And so my hair like was like everybody else is around the leadership table. And then I was like, my God, I'm I'm I'm the only black woman. It's like now I've gone like natural and I've like cut it off, and I'm a lesbian. Like, what are they gonna think? And I was I was like, I didn't even know I was anxious about this until I walked into work. And Anne, you know, bless her, was at like the breakfast line and she looked at my hair and she said, Cute. And I was like, and and again, I'm talking about like I just said, like, don't play to the audience, but like sometimes you don't even know that you need certain validation or that you want it. And I think it then made it easier for me to walk into that room where all the bobs were still in place and like you know, and I was like, no, this is just me. And I'm like, how much sooner should I have done this? It would have been so nice not to go through that pain every six to eight weeks. But I guess that is one of those things of I just feel like the more we can help each other uncover our our stuff, all that energy can now be spent doing things that are more of what we're meant to be here to do. Paige Williams: Love that that moment where you said, my god, why haven't I been doing this all along? Like that realization of letting this like hidden belief or limiting belief limit you. And then, I see a story where I identify my own self and potential, so I change, and in your case, something physical, Ara Tucker: Right. Paige Williams: and then and you shed something. Ara Tucker: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: That was holding you back and then you like found this new sense of freedom and like, why haven't I been doing this all along? Like the relief of becoming all of ourselves is such a blessing to ourselves and to those around us. Ara Tucker: It really is. Paige Williams: But I it makes me think of the Kierkegaard quote of life can only be understood looking back but lived forward. I just messed it up, but you know the one I'm talking about. Ara Tucker: I do, I do, I love that. The next years, but to the point it's almost like the golden handcuffs aren't just one corporation's W-2 allocation. It's more of the I've I've accrued so much in this life so far. How can I use it and put it to work in a way that will be of meaning and service to others in a way that is both honoring the journey to date, but also creating road ahead too. So Yeah. Paige Williams: I've throughout this interview you have peppered in a beautiful way love and service in your life and in your work and I just want to acknowledge and tell you I I heard you say that over and over and I think that's why we do what we do and that's why we're called to what we're called is to be of love and service to one another. So thank you for being such a beautiful example of that and telling us your story. But I have one more question. Ara Tucker: Okay, okay. Paige Williams: When you hear the words narrative intelligence, what do you Ara Tucker: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: think of and how would you define narrative intelligence? Ara Tucker: So my stepmom is an editor by training. Like she went to Columbia Journalism. She was an editor of a lot of major, you know, publications. Whenever I hear, I mean, I hear narrative intelligence, I think of moments around the dinner table or like a phone call, and I'll say, This is what I'm thinking, or this is what I'm feeling. And it's like, okay. And let's let's think about another way of saying it more clearly. Like, let's get to the heart of what you're really trying to say. And you know, as I mentioned, it's it's sometimes better outside of the moment of what you're going through, but I very much appreciate it. I think it's this idea of how do you think about our capacity to communicate, whether it's to ourselves or to others, in a way that is coherent, and I don't mean linear, I just mean coherent. It could be nonlinear and super coherent, but like how do we actually apply some conscious intentional thought around how we're communicating and how it is coming together as a story. Paige Williams: Beautiful. Era, thank you so much for saying yes to this podcast interview. You added so much. Ara Tucker: Paige, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for finding me, plucking me out of Paige Williams: Yeah. It's a pleasure to meet and know you and I look forward to continuing to follow your story and your journey. Ara Tucker: Thank you. Paige Williams: Here's what I'm taking from today's conversation about narrative intelligence. help me see how much of what we think of as talent, confidence, or even identity may have an architecture beneath it. Early exposure can become fluency. Fluency can become ease. Ease can be read as talent, and then talent gets rewarded. And once we begin to see those invisible structures shaping what feels possible to us, it becomes harder to believe than any of us arrived where we are Entirely on our own. I was also struck by Era's distinction between being able to write our own story and having that story equally heard, believed, amplified, or given permanence. We may all have imagination. But we do not all have the same megaphone, and that feels important. Narrative intelligence cannot only be about personal agency, it also has to include awareness of the conditions that shape whose stories become legible and powerful in the world. And I love something Ara said about change. You're not going to be ready until you're doing it, because doing it is how you get ready. And maybe sometimes we can change the story by taking the step before we fully believe we are ready. And then letting the experience give us new evidence about who we are becoming. And now I want to invite you into the inquiry. What is your NQ? Take the narrative quotient assessment at storykeys.co and subscribe to 100 Stories, the narrative intelligence projects, wherever you listen or watch. Tell your friends and rate the show. It really helps us a lot. Era, thank you so much for coming on 100 Stories. It was an honor to learn from you today.