Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Melanie Rohr on Solo Travel, Cyber Security, and the Joys of Giving Back

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Melanie Rohr on Solo Travel, Cyber Security, and the Joys of Giving Back · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and I'm joined today by a
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: very good friend and an extremely interesting traveler, Melanie. Now,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Melanie works in this cybersecurity field, but she also has
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: worked for decades in philanthropic efforts for not only her
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: own not for profits, but also for other commercial organizations. Now,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Melanie is extremely experienced as a solo traveler. She's done
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of overland travel as well, but she provides
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: some really important insights into how we as travelers can
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: give back during our journeys. Melanie also provides some practical
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: advice around solo travel, some of the things that she
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: has learned and used throughout her trips. So please enjoy
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: my conversation with Melanie. Melanie, thank you so much for
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: being on the podcast today. We have known each other
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: a very long time, and I have so much respect
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: for you, not only as a traveler, but as a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: professional as a cybersecurity expert, and also as a philanthropist.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: You have spent a lot of your life giving back
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: to others, and we're going to talk a little bit
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: about each one of those things today. So thank you
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: so much for being on the podcast fun.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Scott. It's great to be here and it
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: was amazing to think about my life in this whole scope.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: So thanks for the opportunity.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: Oh you're so welcome. And I remember the very first
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: time that we met. It was in Sedona and I
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: was taking delivery of a mountain bike, of all things,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: and the highlight of the day ended up being my
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: interaction with you, not the mountain bike, and it was
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: a very cool mountain bike, but just to be able
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: to connect with someone that has now become a lifelong
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: friend and someone that I have so much respect for.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: It's just really great to get a chance to sit
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: down and have this conversation together. And you've traveled a lot,
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: both professionally and personally, and a lot of those travels
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: have been solo, and you've done a really good job
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: of doing trips that are better planned than others and
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: some trips that are quite serendipitous as well. So we're
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: going to go through all of that in the conversation today.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: But what I really wanted to start with was what
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: fired that passion for travel for you? What was your
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  Speaker 3: first memories of travel or the thing that maybe hooked
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: you in the beginning.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: So I was that kid growing up in Hudson, New
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Hampshire who started to read every book in the local
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: public library. And that's where travel really started as a
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: litter share. Fortunately, the librarians there let me take out
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: more than the allowed amount of books, and my dad
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: would cart me there every other week and he would
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: get some books for himself, and then I would have
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: this massive stack of you know, eleven twelve books and
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: I just read and I think that's where it all started,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: just this kind of idea that there was so much
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: in the world to see, to be a part of,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: to understand, to learn, and to learn myself, to be
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: there sure in those places and see what what.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: I saw is there? Is there a couple books that
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: come to mind from that time in your life that
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: really stood out.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I read all the Four Doors travel books in different countries.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: And funny enough, people don't really use those that much anymore, no.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: But someone had gifted them, I think, to that library.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: And the first one I read was on the UK
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: acause I loved castles, and then I remember the one
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: on India, which is really actually interesting because that is
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: one of the one countries I haven't been to I've
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: been to Sri Lanka, but not to India yet.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: And you've so you've been very well, Paul.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I actually was fifteen miles near the border,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: and I really thought about it, but I didn't think
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: that was authentic enough to just cross the world. Sure,
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  Speaker 2: I have a three hour program, so it's like I
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: have to spend three hours at least in at Okay.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: That's an interesting one. I've heard that. I heard it
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: a couple of different ways. I've heard, you know that
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: just crossing the border qualifies. I've never heard someone really
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: make a decent argument for being in a layover in
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: an airport. I don't think that that's ever really qualified
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: in my mind. I mean, I guess technically you've you've landed,
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: but you haven't even touched the earth yet. I mean
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: you're still like on concrete and steel and tile and
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: everything else like that.
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  Speaker 2: I have to be out. I have to be out
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  Speaker 2: of an airport and actually experience something locally.
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  Speaker 3: I like the three hour rule. That makes sense. A
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: lot of people also say, you know, an overnight also,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: But then there's countries like Lichtenstein, which is like like
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: you would have to like it would have to be
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: like a stunt almost to have to spend the night
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: there because you know with Shengan, now you just you
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: go have I remember having a great dinner in lichten Signed,
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: but there was not a reason for me to like
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: make that be my stop for the evening.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, And usually when you're there, you're going
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: somewhere else.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, so true. Well it's just so small. It's so tiny,
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: you know, or what's the one in well or the
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: Vatican City. You wouldn't be able to spend the night at.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: I don't think. I don't believe that there's any accommodation there.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: So that's a and that's considered a country. And there's
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: some other ones in Italy that are so small.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the autonomous provinces, Yes, they're.
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: Just very tiny little countries.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, right on the border. There's so many amazing places
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: kind of established out of World War Two that are
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: fun to go to. Lots of castle ruins all along that. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: No, you're right, because World War two was actually when
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: most of Italy as we know it today was formed,
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: because they were quite autonomous provinces before the war. I
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: mean they were considered Italians.
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  Speaker 2: But like Tyrol, where they're speaking you know, German. Yeah,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: that's a fun that's a fun experience and gorgeous mountains.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: So foters books was something that you were reading as
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: a kid. That's pretty that's pretty impressive.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: See where I could possibly go.
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  Speaker 3: I think I was lucky to get through a mad
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: magazine as as a as a ten year old or
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: whatever you're reading. You're reading Photers, I just went nuts.
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  Speaker 2: I just read everything I could get my hands on,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: and every genre too, which was really surprising for a kid.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: But I was partially deaf when I was a child,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: and so since I had lost my hearing, my whole
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: world expanded when I was actually reading.
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  Speaker 3: Oh sure, it brought in that sense of it. That's amazing.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: And about how old you were you when your hearing
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: came back?
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Fourth grade?
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: Oh wow? Yeah, so yeah that would be yeah, that
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: would certainly be an experience as a child trying to
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: come to terms with that or or had you lost
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: your hearing young enough that you really didn't know what
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: was missing?
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so second grade to fourth grade, so two years.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: While each ear drum kind of they regenerate like starfish. Wow,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: they can if a certain portion is there, so you
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: can regrow them, and I was able to. But that
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: two years was made a significant impression because I had
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: to learn a little bit of sign language and I
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: was reading, and my math scores went way behind because
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: math is generally verbal for kids.
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  Speaker 3: So, oh interesting, that makes sense. Yeah, there's a lot
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: of instruction in that regard. Oh wow, interesting stuff. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: very interesting. But all part of what makes us who
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: we are is those experiences.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, because one I started reading and the world expanded
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  Speaker 2: for me in a different way, and two I started
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  Speaker 2: to watch people in a different way that benefited me
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  Speaker 2: later in life, especially across cultural connection.
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  Speaker 3: Those nonverbal cues, which is so much a part of language,
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: and it's also why, like surprisingly we can pick up
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: languages when we're in the context and with the person physically,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: because we as humans, we are quite adept at nonverbal communication,
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: and no question, throughout time we've had to interact with
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  Speaker 3: people that we didn't have the same native tongue. So
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: I would think that those humans that survived to at
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: least a couple generations ago would have at least developed
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  Speaker 3: some ability to be able to interact by not speaking
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: the native.
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  Speaker 2: Tongue right all the trade.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you think about all of that. Yeah, no question.
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  Speaker 3: And what was the first international trip that you went on?
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  Speaker 2: This is really kind of interesting. I had to think
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: about that previously. I've been on so many trips all
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: around the world. The very first trip that I went
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: on was to Europe. And it's interesting. When my grandmother
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: passed away, she left my brother and I each six
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars to travel. And I was a sophomore in
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: college and I had to think about where I wanted
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  Speaker 2: to go first, and I couldn't decide I wanted to
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  Speaker 2: go on a a whole journey, and so my brother
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  Speaker 2: said he was game to come with me. I rented
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  Speaker 2: a car in England to drive.
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  Speaker 3: You wanted to go see those castles.
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  Speaker 2: I had no idea that it was going to be
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  Speaker 2: on that it was going to be on the other
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  Speaker 2: side of the car driving and on the other side
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  Speaker 2: of the road driving. I still remember getting to Dover
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  Speaker 2: and then taking the ferry to France from Calais and thinking,
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  Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm really doing this. I'm really going
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  Speaker 2: to go and see these places.
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  Speaker 3: And you did travel with your brother, was that right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, my very first trip was with my my younger
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  Speaker 2: brother Eric, and that really you know, kicked some things off.
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  Speaker 2: And so there we were, you know, driving through France
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  Speaker 2: and a British car.
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  Speaker 3: Sure, now you're back on the other side of the road,
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: but still on the wrong side of the car.
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  Speaker 2: We hit the highway going into into Paris. I didn't
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: know how to get off the ring road there. Around Paris,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: we went straight through and around the Arctotriumph like at
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: the same day that was Francois Mitron's funeral. Wow, So
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: that was that was exciting. And then I just pulled
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: the car over and hopped out. My brother did too.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: We had to breathe and we just looked at the
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: sin and just kind of like we made it alive.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: And then I drove down to Barcelona. So that was
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: my very first road trip, even just exploring and just
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: seeing what there was to see.
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  Speaker 3: So we were that is a proper That is a
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  Speaker 3: proper first road trip.
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  Speaker 2: It was, it was.
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  Speaker 3: But I think that's that's been a marker of your life,
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  Speaker 3: is that you know, even though you you understand risk
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: because it's actually what you do professionally, but you're you're
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: you're willing to take those risks oftentimes to have the
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: experiences that you want so true.
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  Speaker 2: It's really interesting because has when I travel, and maybe
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: this is shortsighted, but it also has benefited me. I
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: haven't worried so much about the risks when I launch
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: and go, But in the moment, I'm comfortable kind of
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: looking at kind of evaluating the level of risk and opportunity. Sure,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: and being a very rose colored glasses person, I tend
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: to look at more of the opportunities than the challenges,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm so curious that it just drives me to
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: see the next place, the next thing. At the same time,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I've been in enough situations globally aware I've had to
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: be much more aware of my surroundings and plan a
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: little bit more than I originally started to.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you've really traveled in the developing world oftentimes, and
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: you've done so in multiple capacities, including working with the UNS.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: You've been in areas that at the time would have
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: been we would call them like a hot zone where
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: there is a heightened risk profile and you're being a
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: little bit more mindful. What are some pieces of advice
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: that you can give to the listener that you've learned
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: traveling in so many different unique places of the world.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, there's so many, so many, so many things. First
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: and foremost, do not hit the elevator button first when
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: you get into an elevator as a female solo traveler, Wait, fiddle,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: do something. Let someone else hit the elevator button, the
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: floor button. And then if someone gets in with you.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: And that's one thing. And I always when I go
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: into a hotel, I block the door with my luggage
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: and then check first the shower curtain. It's like shower
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: curtains closed, I don't go into the room. Yeah, so
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: there's those types of things. But and that's just kind
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: of tactical, but on a deeper.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: Level, or behind the blinds, behind the blinds, behind that.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: I have one ridiculous story. I think I was into.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: That's why I remembered it. I remembered it.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: There was that time that I threw it one of
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: my shoes at the curtain around a window to see
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: if there was a person behind the curtain. And there
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: was and they did move. But then I had to
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: run with one shoe and the other one was healed,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: so that wasn't the best the best choice. So I
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: took it off in the hallway and ran, you know,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: without shoes. But but you know, those types of things
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: you learn over time. So there's that hotel room safety,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: there's the hotel safety in general, and there's the things
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: that you start to become more aware of when when
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: you get out of the elevator go last. Yeah, and
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: because there are different experiences I've had where they weren't
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: they weren't positive, but at the same time, you know
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: that's that's one level. And then there's also the level
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: when you get into a country and there's some unrest
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: or some geopolitical challenges that have not actually been publicized,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: but you arrive at that place and you're seeing that
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: something's going on. This happened to me once, I think
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: like four or five years ago. I flew into San
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Pedro Sula because I wanted to go up to Copon
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: and Ruenas and Honduras. And I flew in and it
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: wasn't in the news, but the airport was being shut
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: down and the people were protesting and had shut down
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: all the roads around the airport. And this is when
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I had to kind of lean on some background experiences
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: and subshar in Africa and all are all around to
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: think about, Okay, what in a situation where a country
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: is shutting down, you know, what do you do and
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: where do you go? Where is safety? You know how
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: safe are you as a traveler, as a tourist, You
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: know what elements of your identity do you need to
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: pull in and those situations for protection or for protection
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: for others or advocacy for others, And you have to
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: start thinking in that situation what you need to do
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: for me. In that situation, I had rented a car
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: at the airport and all the cars actually had been taken.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: So the man at the rental car location said that
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: I could rent his car from him, and so I did,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: and we worked out a plan, and that night I
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: spent about three hours trying to leave the city or
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: find a safe place to stay overnight where the car
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: was protected.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: I was protected because you were trying to get to
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: copon ruins.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I had a good few hour drive that
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: was going to be north but could not leave. And
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: there were fires across the trees, down fires, trash fires
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: on the roadways all around. And so one of the
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: things that I've learned from traveling is that you watch
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the women and chldren and you see where they go,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: and you talk to them to find out where the
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: safe places are. I speak some level of you know,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: beginner Spanish, like where I can go to the market
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: or the bathroom. But I had enough, I could speak
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: enough where I stopped and asked some people what they
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: you know, what what they thought? Where were they going?
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Asked if I could follow them? And then people naturally
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: will help you when they see who you are, and
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: they'll also gesture, and you know, one woman explained, keep
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: your windows down, do not use your camera, do not
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: use your phone, show people that you're American, you know,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: make sure people can see you. And then I followed
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: one woman and her son on bikes through a sugar
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: cane field and she took me to her cousin's house,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: where we I slept in a in a garage overnight.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: You made it work, Absolutely made it work. Yeah, And
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: that is quite common in Latin America for protests. They've
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: learned that having their protests surround some shutting down of
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: commerce or transportation gets them a little bit more attention.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: So those that are going to be traveling through the
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: Americas just know that that is a very likely scenario
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: and in most cases you're better off turning around and
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: returning to where you came from for a day or two,
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: and then continuing on on your journey. It's very rare
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: that those protests continue for more than a couple days,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: but I mean, it certainly can, but it's very rare
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: that that happens. I remember we were trying to get
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: out of Ushawaya in Argentina, and they were protesting in
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: this roundabout, but they only had the travel you know,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: the traffic blocked out of town. So what we did
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: in the land cruisers we made a left like we
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: were going to go back into town, but then we
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: backed up the other side of the road and like
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: steadily waved and smiled and like in the poorest Spanish
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: that I could muster because I have pretty good travelers Spanish.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: I'm like moochas gracias, you know, you know, as I
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: just like drove backwards up the inbound lane in the
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: town to get out. So I think we surprised them
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: enough that we pulled it off. But you can't always
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: do that.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and you have a little bit of credibility
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: when you're traveling, as you know, being from somewhere else,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: so you're not part of whatever is happening locally, and
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: people get a chance to kind of explain their stories
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: to you listen to them, Yes, and you really need
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: to hear those stories because there's nuggets in there that
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: helped teach you about that place, the history, the culture,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: much more than just what you're seeing. And you have
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: to have those conversations in some way, even when they're
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: not in the same language. So it's good to learn,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: you know what people are experiencing, and then you start
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: to think of waste you can help as well.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: And give them that opportunity to be heard, yes, because
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: that's really why they're doing it. They're protesting because they
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: don't feel heard, they don't feel seen in whatever plight
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: that they're facing. And a lot of these countries are
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: really challenged, and especially in a country like Argentina or
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Honduras for example, they're really challenged countries and they have
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: this isolation of wealth, so a lot of people are
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: quite dispassionate about it.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, balance of resources and the political justice or lack
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: thereofka generational and so there's there's so much to learn
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: and you can't always ignore those things, you know, as
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: a traveler when you're just going to see places, you
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: actually have to be a part of it and find out.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: At least I do. That's part of what I love
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: about travel, is meeting the people, finding out the stories.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: It's firsthand, it's primary source information. Yea, when I was
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: in high school, I wanted to be a journalist, or
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: thought I wanted to be a journalist, and I went
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: very far from that in different ways. But at the
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: same time, you know, that kind of interest in humanitarianism
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: or human rights is brings you to places and you
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: see what's happening in the human condition of that of
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: that place, and you have an opportunity to be a
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: part of a change for the good or to just
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: support with knowledge, or you know, there's so many, so
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: many different opportunities, and it doesn't feel like that. Sometimes
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: when you're traveling, you don't always know what it is
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: that you can be a part of or if you
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: should even get involved, But sometimes you really should.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: Well, and you've learned a lot around that, and that
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: was one of the points of conversation that I really
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: wanted to have today, because there are some things that
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: you've really helped me understand a little more thoroughly. We
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: had a conversation about some ways that I wanted to
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: give back during this trip across Africa, and you know,
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: I felt like it was important to be as supportive
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: as possible to the mothers and to the women of Africa,
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: because I've seen a lot of that on the ground,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: and you reminded me that there is some downside to that,
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: and that there's a lot most people that give to
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Africa in some way have a similar mindset and that
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: results in it kind of an imbalance of providing opportunity
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: and education, safety and security for young males as well.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: So that was really important for me to hear that,
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: and so came. I came from this place of what
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: was clear to me after the fact of extreme ignorance,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: that I wanted to do something beneficial and I felt
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: like in my trips to Africa that these women are
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: so incredible and they work so hard for their family,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: and they work harder on their easiest day then I
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: will ever work on my hardest day. But it's important
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: for us to not forget that there's a whole other
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: segment of the population that if they continue to be
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: disenfranchised or even amplified in that disenfranchised nature because of
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: we're only giving to one segment of the population that
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: can result in even more tension, right, So that was
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: really helpful.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so many aspects of that. You know, the
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: un identified years ago that when you gave a woman opportunity,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: she shared it with her community, shared the information, shared
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: the resources and spread or scaled the what was provided.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: And that was what I heard.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, And you know, at the same level, disenfranchised is disenfranchised.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: And the people across the many countries of Africa are
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: incredibly entrepreneurial and have see things that some of us
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: who don't live there. They see things that we can't
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: possibly see, and opportunities that we can't possibly grasp. And
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's important to give them the opportunity to
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: create something instead of us telling them what can be created,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: because they have many, many ideas to start and to
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: grow things, especially through technology, which is amazing. Years ago,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: I was at a World Economic Forum event and I
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: met a man from Nigeria who had started a bee
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: keeping business and on his card it specified his address
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: which was like three lines. It's across from the mobile station,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: the place with the windows that had the blue curtains,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: and it was you know, it was like a description
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: more than it was an actual address. And he handed
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: me the card and he saw the blue curtains forever.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: But he you know, he had that. But what he
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: had was an email address, and he had a phone number,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: and that gave him a presence in the world. And
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: then what that man did was he took his opportunity
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: and his knowledge of bees and started to spread that
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: to a larger, wider group of people. Created bee kits
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: where people could use the these kits to keep away
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: rogue male elephants in their gardens where they would previously
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: hurt the elephants from coming through. So he created fascinat
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: opportunity just simply from connecting with people. He was able
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: to later sell to whole foods the and created a
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: whole system of regulation and cost structure for honey around
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Sub Saharan Africa, and so you know, and he gave
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: back to many, many, many people because he sold the
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: bee kits at a price where it was just the
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: cost of his print transportation to get to different communities.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: And then he involved those people in the trade, had
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: a list of all the people who were participating, got
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: them email addresses, taught them how to connect to others.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: So sometimes what people need isn't necessarily funds or money
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: or our ideas as travelers. They need what you said earlier,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: an ear, a listening ear so that they can actually
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: talk about some of the ideas and solutions that they
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: have that are so different in some cases that we
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: could that some travelers just can't imagine. And so we
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: can always benefit from sitting back and hearing someone's story
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: and what their ideas are and how to help them
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: make those things real.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: If I understand what you're saying correctly, it's really about
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: not coming in with here, I have a solution to
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: provide you with clean drinking water. Yes, sitting down and
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: asking them what do they see as the best way
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: to have clean drinking water, and they may like. One
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: of the things that I experienced when I was in
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Malawi was I was talking with a gentleman there and
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: he talked. We were walking through his village and he
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: was showing me all of the water systems were that
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: no longer work and the ones that are still in use.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: I believe they were put in by the Norwegians, and
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: they were all mechanical, huge, robust, stainless steel with a
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: concrete ballard and these huge mechanisms and joints to be durable,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: and they he's like they have never stopped working. All
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: the other stuff that either is trying to pull moisture
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: out of the air, that one stopped working. And I'm
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: sure that those technologies are awesome, but they're difficult to
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: sustain for the long term. So yeah, and.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: It's important to find out, you know, sometimes it's important
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: to know from people to where some of these things
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: should be. Yeah, So you see a lot of water
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: systems placed at schools and at near community centers, and
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: so it's about where they can be protected, where they
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: can survive, where they can benefit others for.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: And not have pilfering or whatever, or.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: That you enable girls or young women to actually be
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: able to you know, if that if that was their
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: their position and their role to provide water for their
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: family during the day, that it gave them an opportunity
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: to go to school and also bring back water for
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: their for their community. And so you have to hear
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: to help, you have to listen, and you can't go
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: with solutions already in mind, Yeah, because you'll miss the
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: real challenges.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: That was that was so helpful for me. And when
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: I was able to go on that tour in Nairobi
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: that you helped arrange, I spent a lot of time
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: just asking questions as opposed to offering solutions that I
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: saw in my mind like oh, this makes sense. And
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: after enough questions you and listening, then you actually get
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: to hear what the problem is, which is the kids
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: were having one day a week they lost their opportunity
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: for education because an entire class had to go and
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: fetch water for the entire school. So one out of
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: five days was spent with this entire class of kids
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: needing to move about a kilometer back and forth between
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: the source of clean drinking water that then provided water
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: for the rest of the school and of course the
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: next day then there's another class that was doing it.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: So but as a result of that, they lost twenty
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: percent of their educational opportunity because they were trying to
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: get clean drinking water. So and then just listening to
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: how they suggested that the solution be brought about, it
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: was the most belt and suspenders, like we're going to
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: we would want to have a pipe that goes here
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: and it's going to go into these three or four
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: you know, nine thousand you know cans or you know,
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: big big canisters, and then it's just going to be
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: gravity fed into the kids, you know, bottles or whatever
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: they're using for cleaning dishes as well. And it was
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: so interesting to listen to this suggestion of a solution
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: and in the background was this huge, no doubt, extremely
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: expensive system that was supposed to pull water out of
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: the air that no longer worked. So again, these technologies
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: are very important and there's no doubt that at some
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: point in the future those systems will work. But you know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: the space was taken this very expensive piece of equipment
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: and you could have bought for the rest of the
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: schools in that region. You could have bought them tanks
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: and pipes for what it would have cost for that
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: one Oh yeah, that one system.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: It's really amazing that, you know, people around the world
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: are brilliant and they know what they need to solve problem.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they just need a bridge and they and when
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: we as travelers can be that bridge through our skills,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: our knowledge, our connections, our network. It's it's important to
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: not just be in a place, but to become part
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: of a place and in you know, certainly in Kenya
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: like you're talking about for Nai Rubi, people have seen
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: different technologies come and go. They're a test sped for
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: so many things from pharmaceuticals to to technology and hydraulics.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: So it's uh, it's it's similar around the world in
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: remote rural communities where people are looking for new and
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: dramatic opportunities but have just not possibly met the right
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: folks or have received grants, but they know why it
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: doesn't work, and that feedback doesn't always get back to
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: the people who have dropped off the supposed solutions, and
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: so they need that space to share what's going on
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: so that they can make a difference in their own
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: communities and lead that change in their own communities in
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: partnership with others.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: How would you recommend? So I'm going to give you
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: a scenario that a typical Overlander would be experiencing, which
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: is doing something like I'm doing crossing Africa, and I
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: learned so much and I gain so much incredible experience
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: from each one of those countries and each one of
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: those interactions that I have, So I'm getting the very
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: best part of that deal. But I want to give back,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: and I know that a lot of Overlanders do want
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: to give back in some way while they're traveling. What
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: would be in your mind the top one two three
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: ways that you think Overlanders can give back while they're traveling.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: I see, well, first and foremost, when you are traveling,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: everything that you can give to that the local communities
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: that you go through, so you know, eat at the
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: local restaurants, stay at homestays or people's homes or farms,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: or help the money that you're spending on your travels
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: go into that local community in some way so that
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: it you know, that's that's just one way we can
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: all do something to help. If we if we only
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: travel and stay at corporate or enterprise level places, we
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: one don't see the rich history and cultures or foods
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: of the place or learn what's important. See the birthday parties,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: go to you know, the local fishing pond or you know,
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: you meet people through these experiences and they take you
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: to do the things that are that matter to them
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: and they share with you what they love. So when
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: you show an interest in that low community, they'll show
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: an interest generally in you. And if they see that
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: you're helping to support the local community and you are
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: going you know, going to that local fish place, they're
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: they're thankful, and they're to tend. In my experience with
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: what i'm seventy two countries thus far, I think that
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: that's that's a way to get involved and see things
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: that you would never see if you want to, you know,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: the places that would be standard or all inclusive or
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: and there's certainly risks and dangers that can be associated
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: with that, because you know, as as travelers were often
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: seen as you know, people who have discretionary income or
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: a target for other things. But surprisingly, with all the
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: places that I've been, the only place that I've been
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: mugged in Miami, so and I think a lot of
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: that is because when people see that you are invested
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: in them and they're asking the questions and you're trying
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: to make an effort to participate in that local economy,
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: then they treat that with a level of respect too.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: It seems like it, And I would wonder, I don't
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: know if anybody's ever really studied this properly, but I
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: wonder if there's any actual increase in safety or security
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: between staying in a Hilton or staying in a local state.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: I would think that the local state was actually safer
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: because you have the advantage of local knowledge and they're
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: vested in your safe experience, yes, because they know that
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: that will result in, you know, a positive you know
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: communication from you to others. I've been absolutely shocked at
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: how much care I have been shown in my travels
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: when I stay at those places, like I mean even
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: just you know, I remember I was, I was somewhere
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: in Tanzania, and I was getting up really early to
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: leave the next morning, and the law of attendant had
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: just not gone home because he was going to make
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: sure that this fancy car wasn't going to get anything
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: happened to it on his watch. And I was absolutely
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: shocked to see them out there, him out there the
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: next morning, and it literally almost brought me to tears
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: because he had not gone home to his family to
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: make sure. And then and maybe this was the wrong
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: action on my part, but I offered to give him
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: some money to thank him for staying overnight, and he
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: was and he just was like he waved his hands
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: like no, like he did it for himself, for his
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: own pride and honor of like, on his watch, this
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: car is not going to get touched. And that was
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: really incredibly humbling for me, Like, and I could see
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: it in his eyes, like he was looking at me
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: like just as a fellow human being of like, I'm
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: glad that I had the opportunity to show you that
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: we care about you and your vehicle. And you don't
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: need to pay me for.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: That, right. It's amazing when you get connected with people.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: They are invested in you know, you making it through
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: and that you having a positive story about that place, yeah,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: and that they are connected to that too, and they
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: have their own credibility off that true.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: And then how we can give back is do a
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: review on that place, yes, and review it in all
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: of the places that you can go on to Ie Overlander,
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: review it on Ioverlander, go on to you know, Google Maps,
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: drop a pin, and oftentimes those businesses will already be
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: in there and give a review. If you've had a
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: positive experience, take the time to give back to that small,
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: locally owned operation that's really made a difference for you.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: They do, and then people even show up and do
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: different and interesting things, like if they know that you're
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: leaving and that you're going to be driving through a
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: place that they know doesn't have much for restaurants, et cetera.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: I've had people actually show up with packages for me
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: to take and drive with so that I had food
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: for the next four hours that I didn't pay extra
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: for and I offered funds for but they said no, no, no,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: no yet. And these are places where people are living
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: off less than fifty dollars a year, you know. So
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: the fact that they're gifting you what they have and
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: they're making things for you sending it off, this is
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: this is the best of humanity, and that.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: Can be hard for some of us that want to
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: be giving to also allow ourselves to receive. We can
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: feel like, oh, like, please don't do that, or it
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: makes me feel uncomfortable or whatever, but it actually takes
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: away that joy for them.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: It does. It does, and I think to give back.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: That's probably one of the second learnings as well, is
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: leave your you know, stereotypes behind because people will surprise
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: you and that we can't possibly construct all the prejudices
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: or stereotypes that we could have in a place without
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: knowing fully what it's like to walk in the paths
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: of that place. So it's important to stay open when
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: you're traveling, and that's how you can find a way
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: to participate, not just give back, but participate. Giving back
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: sometimes carries the connotation that you are there to provide.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: But we have to remember too that we're part of
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: every community that we come into, and that when we
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: when we're there with anyone, you know, we don't have
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: to just give back. We can just be a part
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: of their community. Because what I found is that people
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: were always giving far more to me than I realized,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: and or I thought I was going to these places
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: and I would be able to provide so much, you know,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: And then I realized when I left that I left
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: with a very different sense of life, myself being in
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: the moment, learning what life without connection to monetization might
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: be like when people's currency is different and that you know,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: self respect and their own you know, it's just authentic.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: It's an authentic experience.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: And to see how happy they are most of the time.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: I meet a lot of unhappy people with money, and
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: I have not I have not actually met that many
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: unhappy people without money.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: It's time, I think, I think.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: Well, they're able to prioritize other things like connection, human
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: connection and fun and play and you know, splashing in
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: the lake or whatever. So as opposed to like I
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: didn't get the exact, you know, version of toy that
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: I wanted this year, So, you know, I think it's
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: really important to remember that that simplicity rules the day
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: at the end of the day, I think for happiness,
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: they really can. So what are some other ways that
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: you would recommend that overlander? What organizations have you found
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: that you have trust in that people can can give
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: to or they can voolunteer their time. What are some
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: suggestions that you have in general?
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Oh? So many. I think work Away is an amazing
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: organization for people to connect to volunteer, to find to
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: be connected to communities where they can go and and travel,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: but also help they That organization connects to so many
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: people around the world that it's kind of trusted through
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: a platform and you can, you know, it's it's easier
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: to connect with people and validate the you know, the
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: the end point. So that's that's an organization I would
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: definitely It's called work away okay and workaway dot info okay.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: Cool. Is there any other ones that come to mind
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: that you've found are pretty.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: The organization of Care is to me one of the
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: top organizations partnering with global and governmental organizations around the
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: world because they have leaders in the local communities who participate,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: and so you can connect with care organization leaders in
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: the places that you're going to and then find out
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: if there's different types of projects that you can participate
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: with or engage with you and you know, see how
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: you can how you can become part of what they're
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: what they're trying to do in that place.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: Well, and that's a great place to start if you
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: reached out and then you were able to talk with
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: that local leader and then you ask the question of
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: what it is, what is it that you need. I've
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: always been surprised what they say because I remember trying
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: to help a school in Mulahe in Baja, and I
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: thought that they would want paper pens, you know, like
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: that's like again my total ignorance on the subject. And
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: they're like, no, no, no, we have plenty. We have
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: plenty of like pens and papers and stuff, which I'm
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: so glad they said. They they said, we need breakfast
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: for these kids, We need food for them for breakfast,
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: like they were set on lunch and dinner, but they
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: did not have anywhere near enough breakfast. And I'm will
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: help me understand what that looks like, what is the
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: best because I'm thinking maybe they want eggs or maybe
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: they want and they're like, no, no, no, we don't want
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: anything that spoils because we don't know how much food
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: we're going to get and win. So they said, bring
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: things that keep on the shelf and don't need room
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: and then don't require refrigeration. And I was like, oh wow,
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: lesson number two. Yes, and so you show up with
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: a bunch of cereal and it totally works.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and in some cases rice like a lot of
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: people like christ for so you'll see that globally too,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: for kids around the world. But yeah, different different ways
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: to bring them to school so that they are fed
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: and they have a reason to go. Sure Thye where
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: I was in the world where I think it was
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Nepal actually where I ran into a couple of dentists
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: and they actually thought that they were going to kind
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: of arrive and distribute toothbrushes and toothpaste samples and things.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: And when they got there, they realized that there were
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: people with really significant challenges that actually needed surgery, and
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: so they committed to sit up a kind of a
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: clinic and eventually we work together to talk about how
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: they could set up a virtual clinic so that they
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: could kind of guide people to teach people about dental
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: hygiene from a distance, and that it was more the
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: knowledge that people needed and how to treat different situations
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: and then when to triage, you know, what needed to
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: be prioritized at a different level to go to a hospital,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: and how they could create community leaders who would know
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: kind of the basics and then expand from there and
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: then be able to communicate with them just through cell
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: phone texting where they would be able to say, hey,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: you know, we've got this person coming in for this,
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: and then they the dentists would communicate back. So it's
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: amazing to see what people can create just from their
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: own skills and knowledge and you take that with you
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: wherever you go.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: That's amazing. Thank you for those insights, Melanie. I appreciate that.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: What's one of the philanthropic programs that you were involved
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: with that you were you're most proud of that you
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: had to share.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: So a few years ago, I started a nonprofit called
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Terabyte And because one of the things that I saw
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: when I was traveling is that different humanitarian and you know,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: small nonprofit groups, or they didn't have a lot of
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: money for technologies and they didn't put it in their budgets,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: or if they did, they couldn't get the grants to
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: fund short term use of those types of items. So
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: I bought radios with the help of other people, and
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Wi Fi hotspots and cell phones and iPads that could
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: be used in different situations over and over again, sort
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: of like a rental or term limit where people could
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: apply and then use them and then they would go
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: on to the next group. So I wanted to do
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: that because I wanted my son, who's twelve, to get
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: a sense of travel from a different perspective where we
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: would go in and we would participate with people based
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: on the types of things that were happening in that community.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that we were able to
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: participate what with was some work with the attempt to
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: save the Wikida in the Sea of Cortes, remember that, Yeah,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: And so we my son reprogrammed radios and set them up.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: We set them up on boats and created line of
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: site communications and in uh in encrypted radios to assist
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: the the biologists with the attempt at moving the wikdo.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Once located into a sanctuary.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and can you share with what a wikida is?
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, sure. It means little cow in Spanish. But
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: it's a very cute little cousin of a dolphin or
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: cousin of a whale really, and it's a it's a
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: it looks like a goth dolphin.
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: It has very very white pink white whitish pink.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: I think they are these ones are actually grey, unlike
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: the river dolphins in China, and they they are grey
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: and they have like black eyeshadows sort of above their eyes.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: And actually they hadn't had any pictures of any since
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: nineteen fifty five alive until about four years ago. So
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: they've been working with the group. But now there are
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: fewer than fifteen left in the world, and the year
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: about ninety biologists globally who came to try to participate
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: in this rescue event along with the Mexican Navy, the
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: US Navy Coast Guard to try to save the the wikida.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: And you know, there are many learnings from that. But
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: while the effort itself, you know, was unsuccessful because they
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: couldn't relocate the remaining wikida to some extent, the opportunity
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: to be there and to have all all of these
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: people from Sea Shepherd or all different organizations from conservative
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: to military to nonprofit to biologists and marine life advocates
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: to come together to come work on a solution really
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: paved the way for other scalable efforts around the world
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: that they're still working on. In fact, they're now same
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: groups working with the River Dolphin endangered species work. So
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: there's so many things that you can participate with. But
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: we took those radios and then we use them again
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: during the pandemic and donated them to the Navajo Nation
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: and then to the Hope emergency response organizations, so they
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: were used for triage and line of sight communications on
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: the nation, both nations where the Navajo and Hope he
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: hadn't traditionally worked together in emergency situation.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: It was such an amazing project, and I remember it
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: was actually one of the times we were able to
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: reconnect through the years where you said, Scott, do you
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: have any extra radios? And I'm like, you know, Midland
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: had just sent us a bunch of radios, and I'm like, yes,
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: And those walkie talkies were, you know, right there helping
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: to save people's lives and so you know, they just
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: needed some additional support and resources and so so I
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: can't think of any individual one that I'm most proud.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: But those are amazing. Now, both of those are incredible,
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: And just what you were doing during the pandemic on
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: the Navajo nation, where you know, a family member would
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: be in the hospital, maybe in their last moments, and
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: they were able to communicate with their family using the
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: technologies that you put in place in an iPad that
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: they were able to hold in their hand to have
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: a video conference with their family maybe one last time.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: So that was really really powerful stuff.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was amazing. And when we first went to
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: the nomination, I had two interns with me that were
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: actually it was my neighbor and her boyfriend and they're
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: they're now married and just graduated from NAU. But they
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: had that idea. They said, well, what if when we
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: went to the hospital, they sill, you know, I've got
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: people who don't have cell phones that their cell phones
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: are with their families. It's you know, multi generational, and
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: and you know we can't people are without the way
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: to communicate. And that was their idea to create that solution.
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: So cool, Yeah, and it was it was such a
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: challenging time. There were so many things to try to
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: figure out, and then also not introducing any risk to
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: the community by even going in there. So I remember,
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: you happen to be really on top of your all
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: your tests and everything else like that to make sure
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: that you were you were safe going into those regions.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, I just remember the woman who's the assistant Attorney
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: General just looking at me when I came in, just
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: what are you doing here? What is wrong with you?
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: As well? I thought that people might need some help. Yeah,
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: and here I am, and she says you're crazy, I said,
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: I am. But now a lot of those ritos are
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: actually in Poland and being used on and the two
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: of the Wi Fi hotspots have been shipped to Poland
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: to be able to be used by a couple of
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: former forest rangers who are now taking those radios using
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: them as they cross over the border into Ukraine to
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: deliver medics supplies. And so you know, these these devices
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: now have kind of a life where they're like there's
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: they're traveling and doing different things, so they have a
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: longer life than they were originally purchased for. So those
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: types of things, it's just that I had some knowledge
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: of and background in technology, so I was able to
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: think about how people could use those types of devices
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: in different situations, and then we've been able to redeploy
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: them and through that whole experience, my son and I
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: have traveled all around the world to help.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: What an incredible thing for him to see, not only
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: see his mom doing it. So the modeling that you're
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: doing for your son, but for him then to participate,
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: it gives them so much confidence. You know, it's such
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: an important time of life. So, speaking of technology, I'd
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: like to pivot the conversation a little bit towards something
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: that you're actively involved with on a regular basis, which
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: is cybersecurity. You know, where this this podcast is so
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: much about the wonderful things of seeing the world, but
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: there's also some practical considerations that we can do. So
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: what recommendations do you have for travelers around cybersecurity to
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: be like apps on their phone, the types of devices
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: that they use, the ways that they communicate that can
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: keep them a little bit more safe while they're traveling.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Oh man, where to start? Where to start?
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: Where to start?
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: So I think recently SISA, which is the US organization
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: for Homeland security around cybersecurity. They released a traveler a
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: traveler's document where they make some recommendations and I would
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: absolutely suggest that those And.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: Is that a S E, S A C I, S
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: A CI And we'll put that in the show notes.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Oh break, Yeah, I'll provide the link. But it's a
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: I find it to be the most well established set
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: of lists for travelers traveling globally as well as in
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: the US. So that's it's kind of a standard list
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: of things. But honestly, cybersecurity starts with practicality, just in
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: how you manage your device hygiene back at home. So
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: if you change your passwords regularly and use significant, more
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: challenging passwords instead of things that can be easily related
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: to your life, that's that's going to help you wherever
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: you travel to. Yeah. And then following.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Me, not don't use your birthday in middle name, right,
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: or your dog's name? Are your dogs or like the
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: name the type of car you drive.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Right or one two, three four five land.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: Cruiser your password? Yeah?
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Or you know, right on the back of your phone,
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: there's a laminated you know, piece of paper that is
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: taped on with all your passwords. Yeah, seen that before too.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: But there's you know, and I work. I work at
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: a different level of cybersecurity, not so much the personal level,
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: but at the policy level and the research level with
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: more nation state, an enterprise and cloud impact and impact
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: to GDP for nations. But it all starts in one place,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: which is that we all have to be aware that
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: this is the wild West in the world time as
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: far as technology, and that people all around the world
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: are thinking about the best possible ways that they could
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: utilize strategies to target your device or a larger group
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: of devices, or a larger system of banks that connect
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: to your devices. So these things are they seem so
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: overwhelming to most people, But the core is you know,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: when you travel or are you using a VPN system,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: are you also checking to make sure that you are
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: not linking or your phone has the bluetooth off, or
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: you're not linking to different systems that can pull information
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: or data from your device. And so one of my
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: former colleagues, Michelle Identity and Michelle Finnegan, they had created
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: a whole system of practical awareness on data protection and privacy.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: In privacy as we go around the world is really
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: a human right and you can protect your own human right,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: and you can also protect the rights of people in
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: a community when you're traveling by keeping your device security
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: maintained and protected. So you know, with data being the
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: new currency, you have to think about how you store
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: or where your data on your phone or your laptop
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: or iPad or whatever you're taking with you goes and
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: that's that's pretty critical these days.
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's such an interesting challenge because there are
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: levels of security that I have found are actually quite
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: difficult while traveling. So for example, if you're if logging
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: into an application requires a text to your phone, there
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: are times that you cannot get that text, like maybe
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: I'm connected by starlink and maybe it work comes through
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: as an MMS, or maybe it comes to as an SMS,
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: or maybe it doesn't come through at all, Whereas if
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: you use an authenticator application that does work. So doing
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: a little bit of research around that, but certainly having
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: two levels of security, not only a password, but some
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: other secondary form of authentication, whether it be an authentication
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: app or it be you know, a text to your phone,
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: some way of getting an extra layer in there.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you need multiple messaging systems as well, so
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: that you can make sure that if you're using sell
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: over that system, if you're using if you can connect
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: to Wi Fi system that's strong enough that you can
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: use those systems. But key in any situation of travel
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: is using and encrypted messaging system.
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: And what are some of the end to end messaging
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: systems that you like? I love Signal Yeah, and it's
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: a not for profit, isn't it It is? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: So those that are listening there is the Signal app,
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: which is a great way for you to communicate back
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: with your coworkers, to communicate with family. Unfortunately, there's not
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: a lot of penetration of that app into the global community,
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: so you will find that most people will use WhatsApp,
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: and WhatsApp at least is better than most like email
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: or standard text message. It is better. It does have
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: a degree encryption, but it's being operated by a for
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: profit profit organization, so everything that you type in there
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: is being used in some way to market or sell
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: to you. Anything else you'd like to add on that
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: on the WhatsApp. What's your thoughts around WhatsApp?
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: Oh? I think that WhatsApp has come a long way
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: as well as being you know, able to you know,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: the location services.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I use that all the time. Yeah, I do.
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: That's really good, especially when you're traveling internationally. You have
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: you have somebody another overlander you're trying to connect with.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: You can share your location for eight hours or four
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: hours or whatever, fifteen minutes if you want, just to
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: be able to connect in with somebody.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: And having that feature available for solo travel especially, you know,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: you meet people as you go and it's important to
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: try to stay in contact if you can. Yeah, so
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: that someone knows where your last position was and where
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: you're going.
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: I do wish it had more of an indefinite one
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: like on the iPhone, like the like. So for example,
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: people in my family I have where they can always
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: check my location using you know, the iPhone services. But
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: it would be nice if WhatsApp had I think the
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: longest is fifteen hours or eight hours. Maybe it's a
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: it's a it's not an unlimited it's not an unlimited
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: amount of time. It would be nice if people that
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: you trust could track you for longer.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: Well. Either way, if you're using your cell, the last
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: time that you connected to a local tower will be
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: your last known location. So that's also helpful. Is if
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: you can if you've got your cell services turned off
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: and you know that there are no cell towers nearby,
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: then that's one thing. But if you are in a
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: place right before your battery goes out, try to connect
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: to a local cell tower, turn on your cellular connection
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: so that you can you can have a last known
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: location as well.
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. What
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: are some other apps that you found that you like
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: while traveling?
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: I I use a I'm trying to remember the name
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: of it, but I use a hidden camera app. Oh yeah,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: and I check I scan the network to see you.
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: Did tell me about that? Yes, I remember I was
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: in my room in Dubai and I'm like trying to
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: and it didn't find anything, but it looks for Bluetooth devices,
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: and I think you use your camera to kind of
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: scan the room, so it's probably it's probably a cyber
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: sleuthing device in and of itself.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: Who knows, well, you all of a sudden the two
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: that I like to use for different reasons, But yeah,
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: those are useful, especially for solo travelers. There's so many
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: times that your whereabouts can be used kind of you know,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: for theft in your hotel room. Or even just awareness
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: of when people can come and find you to offer
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: you options for tours and things like that. You surprised
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: what things were used for, but I always look for
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: things like that and just try to identify what systems
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: are trying to connect with mine.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Those are
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: all great pieces of advice. And then yeah, so we've
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: talked through some of the probably enough around cybersecurity, unless
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: there's anything else that you really really feel is important.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: Those are all really good actionable pieces of advice. So
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: change your passwords off, often, use two factor authentication, use
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: messaging services that have encryption. Those are all really good.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: Multi layered messaging systems, so that if you can't connect
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: one way, you can connect another. Yeah, and that there's
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: those one of those systems connects to a last non location.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's probably where we have to think beyond
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: just the single device that we have, which is the
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: cell phone, which all of those are quite desirable in
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: other countries. So someone's stealing your phone, So having for example,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: an inReach, a garment in reach with you that can
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: communicate by satellite, that way you have your primary method
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: of communication is your cell phone. A secondary form of
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: communication can be an in reach or on top of
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: that small radios. And then maybe you have a third
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: or an emergency form of communication, which can be an
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: additional satellite communicator of some sort of satellite phone for example.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think satellite phones and satellite communicators are really
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: necessary if you're going on a rural solo trip ye
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, having those multiple layers of if you have a
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: problem being able to communicate.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: And testing them out prior. I've seen a lot of
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: friends who get to a place because they haven't had
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of time prior. They test it in the
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: place and they can't figure out the functionality and the
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: systems that they brought are useless for them and they
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: depended on them for stability, security and comfort, and so
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: test everything before you take it out into the field.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I tried to activate my Spotify account in Africa.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: It doesn't work. Can't do it. You got to have
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: it activated you're in your home country wherever your billing addresses.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: So like I didn't get my Spotify for all of Africa.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: But that's like that's an example of like check your
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: in reach before you go. Check all of that.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: Stuff and the loss for different apps and data on
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: different apps are different in different countries. So you have
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: you know, Europe which has GDPR, which is protection of
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: data on people. So so the rules are different in
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: different places. You just have to kind of be able
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: to navigate through those things.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: So what are your top like from an overland perspective
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: or just from a travel perspective, what are your top
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: like two, three, four, or five pieces of kit that
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: that Melanie loves? You have cool stuff like you know,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: like you totally get.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: It, so minimalist that's good though.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you like you drive a Toyota four World
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: Drive and you drive things that are like totally the
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: right solution. But what are some of the things that.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: You found you like, it's kind of hard to travel
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: with it sometimes, but because you can't if you can't
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: find the propane. But my very, very favorite thing to
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: travel with and have with me is a jet boil
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: and an arrow press coffee maker.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: Those are awesome and I.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: Have a hand grinder, so coffee is to me one
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: of the most valuable things when I'm traveling.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: We're drinking coffee. Now, we're not going to disclose what
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: may be in the coffee but we are drinking coffee right.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: Now, so funny enough. That's like part of my minimalist kit.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: But I try to pack really light because I need
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: to be able to move fast. I have an Osprey
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: bag that I love that can change for being a
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: rollerbag to a backpack so that I can move fast.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: I can put it on my back. I find that
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: being hands free as much as possible is pretty important
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: when I'm traveling. I hate carrying bags and having lots
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: of stuff around. I think that some of that's.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: Anytime anytime I check a bag, I feel like I've
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: let myself and the rest of the travel community down.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: I used to give myself points on how many like
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: I would lower my point level on my travel preparedness
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: if I had to take more than one bag.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so true.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: And I roll things up really tight and I pack
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: things very very tightly, but so that I can take
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: what I want.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: But the Osprey bag is cool. Maybe we can get
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: a link to that. That sounds very clever.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: It is smart. They come in a couple of different sizes.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: I'd love to work with Osprey though, to like expand
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: the size of the handle so you can put a
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: backpack on it if you needed to. Oh sure, but
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: our camera bag actually would be really great because everything
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: just kind of falls off. But it is, it is.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: It is really useful to being able to get in
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: and out of cars fast, in and out of places
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: to stay. When you need to move, it moves with you.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: That's one of my favorite pieces. I also have a
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: solar tri charder that I just got for a Christmas
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: that is unbelievable. I can charge my devices so quickly
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: with that. And I'll provide the link for that one.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: So it has a solar panel plus a battery in it.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: It has a Yes, it has a battery in it,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: and then it also connects. It has carabiners that can
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: connect to the back of your backpack so or the
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: front of you know, if you lay it flat in
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: the car.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: And I had to test this out when I was
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: in Europe last week and it charged my phone as
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: fast as my home charger. I could not believe the
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: capability on this thing. That's awesome and it's used by
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: mountaineers around the world. So I thought, well, you know,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: this might be the right solution. And it was a
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: great gift.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, do you remember the brand?
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to it doesn't have it's not branded on
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: the end. It's really funny and so I don't remember
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: what the name of the brand was.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: You're so clandestine. So pivoting away from how clandestine Melanie is,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: let's let's talk about We started the conversation talking about books,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: so I think we should have this be one of
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: the last questions that we ask. So, what are some
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: of your favorite books that you have read? And they
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: can be about travel, they can be about anything that
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: you want, but.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: Favorite books that I have read. One of my well,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I can give you, like forty one
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: of my favorite books to read, and oddly I reread
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: it and reread it is Braiding Sweet Grass, and I
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: think it's like Robin Kimler, Yeah, And it's a book
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: that you can pick up and it pulls you right
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: into the moment to remind you that wherever you are,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: you can just be. You can watch the snow falling,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: you can understand the language of a place. And my
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: favorite chapter is about language and she goes into the
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: mononymy people and their language, and how there is a
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: term for the growth of a mushroom one night, and
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: but there are so many more terms in biology for
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: things happening, and so it's just fascinating and it's it's
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: great to think I love that book when I'm traveling
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: That's a great one.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: And then also I don't know if I could say
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: this on the podcast.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: You can. You can say whatever you want. That is
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: the what is it? The subtle art?
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, the subtle art. I'm sorry you you.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: Have the subtle art of not giving a bleep.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, And so it's it's a that's a great book
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: and it always reminds me of like how you need
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: to set your standards for your own life. And I
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: think one of the things that travelers experience too is
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: that people are always saying to me, like why why
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: do you need to do that? Like why are you
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: taking those risks? Like don't you you know, as a mother,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: as professional in the cybersecurity industry, like why do you
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: need to do these things? Like why do you need
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: to travel? Or whatever? But you have to learn to
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: set your own metrics for your life and for what
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: you value, and sometimes it's not on what other people
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: think of you. It's what you think of yourself and
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: what your goals are. And I think that that book
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: is helpful in making you rethink what your own metrics
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: are well.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: And it's you're living your own life, and you're the
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: only one that can live that. And our lives are
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: so impossibly short.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: One of the books that I've read recently that I
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: really enjoyed was called four Thousand Weeks and there's a
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: whole chapter on cosmic insignificance, and it's a perspective of
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: in the grand scheme of the cosmos, my life is
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: not even a blip. It is one millionth of a blip.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: And it's important to remember how short it is time
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: that we have and that we do need to live
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: the life that we feel is the most rewarding for
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: us and our family, for the people that we care about,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: and certainly to stop focusing very much, if at all,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: on what some third party thinks of you, or what
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: some stranger thinks of you.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Exultimately, if it doesn't matter to you, then it doesn't.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: Matter, right, Yeah, exactly. And oftentimes the things that matter
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: to us also matter to our family and to our
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: close friends. And you know, there is there is a
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: responsibility that we have to the people that count on us.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: For sure, but that includes us, like we also have
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: some agency in how we live our life, and.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: That's part of our value system too already. It's just yeah,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: it's like, what do you want to get out of
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: the limited time that you have?
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very very very limited time. So what are you
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: excited about next for your travels? What's what's coming up
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: that you are thrilled about?
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, So I so last year I read here's my
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: third book. I read The Odyssey, you know, one of
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: two Homer's epic poems, and that that book, that poem
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: is amazing because it takes you through looking at life
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: as a personal journey and facing facing your demons, facing yourself,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: and establishing an idea of what is home to you
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: and what you're trying to get to, like what are
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: what are your goals? And so I think the Odyssey
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: still has so much relevance today. And what's interesting is
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: there are some places in the Odyssey that you can
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: actually still go and visit, but there are also some
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: places that are unknown. So the fact that there are
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: some places that are unknown and that people are studying
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: where those locations might be is interesting to me in
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: a bit of a challenge. And so for my next
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: life and in you know, some vision or fantasy of
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: retirement at some point, I would love to learn to
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: sail and then go and explore the seas and oceans,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: because that's kind of an unexplored territory for me yet
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: and actually go to on a path of the odyssey
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: and thinking about that journey of self discovery.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's wonderful, and it's one of the oldest stories
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: that we have as humans that's been passed down probably
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: fairly close to its original original form because storytelling can
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: be so powerful. But I love the fact that it's
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: the hero's journey. In the modern age, we have become
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: infatuated with the revenge story, and I think, particularly for men,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: it's important to live the hero's journey and not the
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: revenge film. You don't want to be Liam Neeson with
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: a particular set of skills and you spend the rest
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: of your life finding a way to revenge all of
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: the wrongs that were done to you. It's really like
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: you said about that journey of discovery, about growing as
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 3: becoming stronger, becoming more thoughtful, giving back, going on to
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: that grand adventure of life and coming back in a
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: way that makes you more humble, more giving, more thoughtful,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: and a better leader when you come to the end
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: Keh.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: So yeah, that's a great one.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: And isolating what matters to you. Yeah, and so hopefully
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: you know that will be that will be coming. I
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: did a little reconnaissance on that this past summer and
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: fun took my son and his best friend to Malta
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: and Italy Increase to see some things, and their perception
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: was quite different than mine. But they they are all
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: excited now because they know a lot more about Greek
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: mythology than they ever knew.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's awesome. So how can people find out a
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: little bit more about tera byite and anything else that
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: you'd like to share that how people can give back
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: will put those organizations that you mentioned in the show notes,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: of course, but what are some other ways that people
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: can can connect in with the good work that you're doing.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, it's a so Terabyte has become something
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: from just you know, some friends and myself and my
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: son to becoming a larger network of people who want
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: to participate and people who want to volunteer to participate
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: to do different things. So it would be wonderful to
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: create a community globally of folks who want to utilize
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: their skills in the communities that they're traveling with them too,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: and there's a way to enter that right onto the
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: terabyte dot org site. And also if you have any
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: devices that you'd like to donate, will always take those.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: We have interns who volunteer to fix them, wipe them,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: and then repurpose them. And we have newly requests coming
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: in from around the world of people who have heard
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: from different folks that we have them available. And there's
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: some larger enterprise level organizations that supply technology through grants,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: but ours is a different system where you can we
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: can provide it for like two weeks, three weeks, four months,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: six months, and people can give them back. Yeah, and
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: so I think that that's useful. So people have devices,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: so iPads, phones, we can use them in different different ways,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: but we really need radios, Wi Fi access points, just
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: you know, anything that you're thinking about throwing away, you
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: can donate.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: And that is te r R A b y t E.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: They get that right, Okay, So terabyte dot org, Melanie,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 3: it has been such a joy to be your friend
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: for so long, and it is such a wonderful opportunity
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: to have you on the podcast. I'm sure this will
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: be the first of many conversations as you continue on
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: your odyssey of discovery in this life. But thank you
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: so much for being on the podcast.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: Melanie, Oh, thank you, Scott. Glad to be here.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're so welcome, and we thank you all for
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: listening and we'll talk to you next time.