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#39 Hookup vs. Hookup Culture: Do You Know the Difference? · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

All right. I'm hoping that everyone's gonna be really excited about this pretty juicy topic, especially compared to some of the things we've been talking about. tHere's obviously more to life in college than studying and trying to manage your stress.There's fun, there's going out, there's meeting new people, there's romance in the air. , and at the same time, we're talking to a lot of you about. Trying to figure out the quote unquote right way to be in college when it comes to,, relationships, hooking up, and so on and so forth. So we're so excited that we got this grab today, and I'll let her introduce herself.Well, hi, thanks for having me. My name is Lisa Wade. I'm an associate professor of sociology at Tulane University, and I'm the author of American Hookup, the New Culture of Sex on Campus.All right. So we, I don't even think we've said the s word on our podcast. We probably have, but, but this is exciting cuz I think this is such a big topic for college students, you know, and I certainly, I. Know that in my work there's a wide range of what people really enjoy and are comfortable with.And, we loved hearing about this book because we also talked to a lot of, not only college students, but college counselors who were saying students , regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity, et cetera, are coming in and saying, Hey, I think we're supposed to do blank, but I only wanna do blank, right?We we're supposed to do X, but I only wanna do Y. What's wrong with me? And so, I don't know. Lisa, do you feel like there's anything wrong with them? Are they supposed to do it a specific way? What? What is the hookup supposed to be these days?Well, I think a good place to start is distinguishing between the hookup itself and what we describe as a hookup culture on college campuses. And so hooking up is just a new word for an old thing that's been going on probably before there were words, but the hookup culture on college campuses. Is is newish.So we always saw hooking up on campus, but it wasn't until the mid 1990s, probably starting like at the big party schools and on the coasts and then spreading throughout America, , that we saw hookup cultures on college campuses. And these are different in that hooking up isn't merely an option for people, but it can feel like an obligation.So hooking up is described as like the thing you're supposed to do in college and there's a clear like way to do it right and wrong, and it's actually kind of institutionalized in higher education. So it's part of the rhythm and the architecture of higher education. So students know where to go, when to go, and who's kind of in charge of.Providing these hookup opportunities. So it's really become a powerful force on college campuses that every student has to deal with, whether they're interested in hooking up or not. And then I guess the second important thing to know is that only about 25% of students really love it. About a third of students will never hook up a single time in college.And then about 45%, that's the plurality. They'll hook up, but they'll do it, you know, with mixed feelings and mixed experiences.So the people who are that 25%, they're hooking up and enjoying it. We can say, go forth, enjoy. You know, if you're enjoying it and it doesn't feel like an obligation to you, then. Okay. There's, there's no judgment here from that. That's, that's fantastic. And the culture, right? This sort of institutionalized culture of this is supporting what's right for you.What about this other 45%, this third, the people who are saying, I don't hook up at all, or, I'm doing so, but I feel conflicted. Is there one group more than others that you're worried about? Out of those two?Well, most of the students who are opting out entirely. Would love to be actually sexually involved with their peers. They're not opting out for, for the most part, for religious reasons or anything like that. They just really don't prefer the options that are available to them. So I, I wouldn't say one is worse off than the other.There's also a small percentage of students that I would call strivers who really want to hook up, but. Can't find anyone to hook up with them. And they are suffering too. So we've got, you know, the two big groups I call the dabblers and the Abstainers. And then we have the strivers as well. And I think they're all suffering in different ways. I know that a lot of times we put labels on things to help make certain, , trends or groups clearer.I, I'm guessing that some people might feel like they're striver, one year, maybe a dabbler another year. I do think that people can go through a journey of what's right for them and. Have some trials and tribulations and come out the other side with some answers. But with that said, what are the various groups?So you said there's dabblers, strivers, is there a name for the people? Who are the, the 25%, the few who are,I call them the enthusiasts.the enthusiasts.yes. Great. So the enthusiasts, I love that term. Right. So this is all so perfect, you know. We have the enthusiasts, the 25%, and then about 45% are dabblers. So they're, they're in, they're hooking up with mixed experiences, mixed feelings about it. Then we have the strivers who really want to hook up in my sample, they were only about 5% of students. So they wanna hook up, but they are struggling to figure out how to make that happen for themselves.And then there's the abstainers, about 30%. Who don't hook up a single time. And my data is just about first year college students at two liberal arts schools. But those overall statistics tend to hold up pretty well across different studies. And like you said, people do switch from category to category, and when they do, they usually go from liking it more, to liking it less.And so over the course of the four years of a college student's experience, they tend to become less enthusiastic over time about hooking up.Maybe through some of those trials and tribulations, they're learning some lessons that might have seemed exciting in theory, but in reality not, not quite what they were picturing.Some, some of it is negative experiences or just changing priorities. Yep. Right. I can imagine coming in from freshman year all the way through senior year, there is, there is a shift, you know, freshman year there's so much about sort of opening up and widening your perspective on things. A new campus, new friends, finding your people, and then I, I can imagine over time, by senior year, yeah, suddenly graduation is looming a little bit more.You've had some various friendships that have, Take in toll or not. And so you start to shift and it's less about. Sort of a widening of experiences, but saying, okay, how can I now regroup and pull together other aspects that are important to me? You know, my job, my friendships, my relationships with my professors, and so on and so forth. \ so people come in enthusiastic perhaps, and then they. They switch over to, I don't know. I guess what happens once you're enthusiastic, but now you're saying I'm not even a striver or a dabbler. I'm like, I'm a, I'm monk-Like in my, in my, do you? So I guess what we're really trying to talk about is what happens when someone has a difference between what they want and what they're getting.Right. So that the main. Discrepancy is, I want this, but I'm not getting it. And I'm just curious if you see how people have tried to manage that difference. Are there skills or coping strategies that certain people use that are helpful when there is that difference?Well, I think that the beauty of sociology is that it always. Looks outside the individual for where the problem is. And so, unfortunately we live in a society where we're kind of taught to either blame or credit ourselves either way for what happens to us or how we feel. And so a lot of students in hookup culture, you know, if they're enjoying it, they.Pat themselves on the back for being, I don't know, sexually liberated or free, which is not what hookup culture is, but it's one way it gets framed. Whereas if students don't like it, then they think, oh, I am a prude, or, I, I need to loosen up whether it's something about me that's old fashioned and, , or broken.And what I try to impress upon students is that, To look to the culture itself as the source of them struggling and the hookup culture. Isn't just , the ones we see on college campuses. It isn't just a culture where hooking up is the norm. It's a very, very specific hookup culture.And we could imagine many, many kinds of hookup cultures and maybe some that would please a lot more students than the one we have does. But the one we tend, we do see, see on college campuses is a very specific kind. That tends to, prioritize the needs and desires of heterosexual men. And then furthermore, tends to reflect all of the other problems in our society.So classism and racism and sizeism pet phobia and expectations about gender performance. So the primary reason that I find that students don't do well in hookup culture is not because they don't like hooking up. It's because they don't like hooking up like this under these conditions, and so that would change a lot if we could change what hookup culture looked like rather than getting rid of hookup culture entirely.Right. There's, we don't wanna throw the baby out with the bath water. There's some good to this idea. I, you said some words that I wrote down here cuz Crude, broken, old fashioned. I started to think about how much language we use. To describe something that could be really normal to your point, if I don't engage in the kind of hookup culture that has been determined for me by another group, or another sort of system, then I am now suddenly old fashioned and crude.Right? So if I don't kind of engage in what has been told to me, are there other words that you've found people use crude, old-fashioned broken?The slur that I have found packs the biggest punch in hookup culture these days. The thing that really nobody wants to be called is desperate.Hmm.to feel like other people think that they want somebody more than they're wanted in return. And the, Imperative to avoid. See seeming clingy or thirsty or what have you is a really powerful force that weirdly, It makes invisible all of the desire for connection that is out there.Even, even the enthusiasts, most of them would be overjoyed to find a romantic relationship and be monogamous or open, but in a romantic relationship, almost all students are interested in that. But there's this strong imperative in this particular hookup culture that we have. To hide the fact that you desire anything other than pure sexual experience.And so, we call, we call it, I'm sure you know the term pluralistic ignorance, where a large proportion of a population misunderstands its own reality. Mm-hmm. big part of what's going on with hookup culture. Yeah. People are gaslighting themselves. Perhaps into believing that they really feel fine with what they've been sold. So is it just women? And the, the reason I say this is I happen to know anecdotally that it's not right, so that some of the people who are coming in and feeling frustrated are in fact heterosexual men saying, I guess I'm supposed to not want a relationship, but I get called a pussy, or I get called, I'm assuming the words have changed since I am in college, but I get called whipped, right?So there's thirsty, clinging, and desperate, but what are the guys called who might want something more than just the hookup culture they've been given?I mean, there's certainly, ways in which. Women at least have the excuse of being women for not liking hookup polter. But there's not a lot of, room for men to dislike it and still be seen as properly masculine. But I know from data that , men are actually slightly more likely than women to be interested in a romantic relationship.And they're, they in my sample, they were almost as likely to be outside of the enthusiastic category as were women. So this is really a across genders phenomenon. , and I that said, men tend to be, they're more likely to be frustrated, disappointed, whereas women tend to be more, especially if they're sleeping with men. Pissed off, traumatized, angry. So the degree of dissatisfaction tends to be stronger for women. But I would say this has, I mean, if it had anything to do with biology, we wouldn't be able to tell because we don't have a good way to test that. But as far as I can tell, it's mostly the fact to do that.Women are treated so much more poorly in hookup culture than men are if they're sleeping with men. So they have fewer orgasms, they're at higher risk of sexual violence. And then there's this like vague threat of disrespect that's still out there. And then on top of all of that, there's this. Assumption that all the women really want relationships and none of the men do. So every single time a man and a woman hook up, he's winning and she's losing. He's getting what he wants and she's not getting what she wants. And this persistent impression that every time a woman hooks up, she's losing women pick up on that too. And that's also a really unpleasant experience. So there's lots of reasons why women like it less than men, but both sexes tend to be pretty disappointed with what it has to offer.So it sounds like there's a really thin, tight rope and if you can walk it, okay. But I mean the energy it must take to navigate through all the, or sort of weave through all the different. Narratives and assumptions that are out there has to just take, what I'm guessing is that if people aren't even aware of it and many are, that there's, there's probably a weight of this on their shoulders without them even having the words to put to their experience. When you talk to students, do you find that once you explain something, they have a light bulb moment, or are all of them saying like, we've been thinking about this. For some time.I find that when students read American Hookup, they one, discover that they're Muslim. And their experiences, that was really important to me, that they no matter, no matter who they are, it's not just the four categories, but you know, students of different racial backgrounds and sexual orientations and different geographical experiences, or being commuter religious, right?I wanted every student who read the book to find themselves somewhere in it. And so I think if it's, there's so much power in realizing that they're not alone in their experiences, that's certainly one reaction., and also suddenly having, The language, and the validation that like this is actually something that I am living in and going through is really powerful too.Right, and to your point, it's not me. I'm not broken. There's something else outside of me that is more powerful. , and now we can name it. So at least I can know it's not my responsibility or something wrong with me for feeling that way. I mean, if we could almost just go around and implant this information into the hands or heads of everyone just being like, ah, you know, for Liz and me, we are the ones sitting with people in our offices sharing what it's like and how painful it is to go through this. And that's why I also actually love the idea of, you know, the psychologist is sort of focused oftentimes on the individual, and we hear and see the pain that's going on. But sociologists can say yes, you know, here's a, here's a reason why. Giving them the skillset isn't enough. Always Right. Maybe helping them find ways to set boundaries or advocate. So for the people that are unhappy, whether they've gone from being the enthusiasts to the strivers or they've always been in sort of one particular category.What are the ways that you found they can try to use this information to survive?Well. When I am asked this type of question, usually my first piece of advice is, , to do the absolutely terrifying thing of telling the truth about what you want to other people, because every possible desire. Every possible desire a student could have exists out there in the student population, but everybody's holding these cards so close to their chests.And if everyone just started telling the truth, a whole lot of space would open up on campus for. All, a lot of different ways of engaging with one another, sexually, romantically, or not, right? What I'd love students to have is not hookup culture, but like a menu of sexual cultures they could choose from and drop in and out of.That can only happen if students start start telling the truth. So I encourage students to tell the truth. It may mean. Having to redefine rejection as dodging a bullet, you really have to get comfortable with the idea of like, I may think someone's cute and it's not gonna work out because I tell the truth and that's not a loss, that's a win for me.So that's a really hard reframing of opportunities, but that's important. So redefining. Rejection is dodging a bullet, telling the truth until you find someone who wants the same thing that you do. And that might be someone you're interested romantically or sexually, or just might be a whole bunch of friends and you can get together and support one another in that and maybe create, be part of creating that space.So that's really an important, hugely important piece, but I wanna add that. Institutions themselves are the terrain for these hookup cultures, so we need a real movement to address the power imbalance between different kinds of students on campus. And maybe that means pulling down those students with all of that power, or maybe it means bringing up the power levels of everyone else on campus, but that's something that needs to happen as well.So for our listeners, what I hear you saying is you're just as okay with big parties with underage drinking, but as long as it's equal for everybody. I'm kidding. But I love the idea of saying it. It can be pulled down, but it also can be pushed up. That, and so, you know, it's interesting cuz a lot of the people we speak to, I, we all have sort of a, a running theme, which is that institutions need to help, institutions need to try that, it has to be a trickle down effect from the people who are running these places.And I couldn't agree more. I. I am curious though, for the people who are in institutions right now, they're on college or they're in a university of some sort and they're struggling and the institution hasn't gotten its act together yet. What are resources, if you know of any, that people can go to before those changes start to happen?Because my guess is that over time we might start to see some of those changes. Until then, have you found, and you don't have to name colleges by the way. So no need to name a college, but have you found a place where they're getting it more? Right?That's two, two very different questions that you just know. I like to ask. I usually like to ask about five questions in one. I'm a rambler. Well, let's start. Let's start with the first one. Do you find that there are places, and you don't have to name names, but you can if you want to, that are starting to get it right? And if so, what are they doing?I think campuses that have built more egalitarian cultures are probably gonna have better hookup cultures. Ones that are, that replicate less all of the inequalities we see in America in general.  Those institutions that really replicate social hierarchies are gonna be the places where I think hookup culture is the least enjoyable for the least number of people. And I think students can always start to fight back in little ways. I mean, the hookup culture is student culture. So hope cultures have really powerful inertia, right? And they're, they're really, they're really difficult to change, but really all it would take is for all the students to decide they wanted it to be different.So students have a lot of power to actually start talking to one another. Start building alternatives. To actually make that happen if they wanted to collective action, right? That's always the sociological answer. You know, it's one thing to cope and try to figure out as an individual, it's not, you know, it's good to know that you're not alone.It's good to remember that whatever way of being sexual feels good to you is what's right for you. And you don't have to conform to whatever the culture is saying because that's always changing anyway. Right. But collective action is always the answer. , so I always recommend that as well, you know, with one another toward the culture itself, but also towards the institutions.I think if I, it's interesting to see how certain places this, we kinda see this across the board, but. You know, suddenly when students start asking, what is your mental health culture like? How are your counseling services? Well, guess what? Suddenly the colleges are incentivized to put money towards that.So I can imagine with this as well, if we started to have people in that majority, right, the dabblers of strivers and the abstainers, if people started to become more aware of that and said, How are you addressing hookup culture in your college? Well, they would be very incentivized, and this is where we start to get into potentially things like social media, right? So if I were to have someone in my office telling me about this and I would say, where are you getting sort of the ideas? I start to get curious cuz it always comes from a different place. But essentially where are you getting this idea that this is sort of what you should want?And inevitably right, it's. It's peers, it's their school that they came from. It's, but you know, here we go. Social media. So what are the ways in which social media has influenced hookup culture?Social media definitely contributes to that pluralistic ignorance, right? So students generally aren't taking pictures of themselves when they're home studying on a Friday night unless, unless they do. So in a way, a woe, a woe is me kind of way. Right? So most of the pictures we get are these glamorous pictures of.Parties, nighttime parties, fra parties, you know, clubs, bars, all this fun stuff, which is great. But it gives the impression that everyone's doing that all the time. And because we imagine that hooking up goes hand in hand with those parties, there's kind of this assumption about what's going on at the end of, end of those nights, even if most people are going home alone and happily so.Often at night. So it definitely contributes to the idea that everyone is hooking up all the time, or anyone who's cool and fun is doing so.I think about the idea of reviews, everyone knows if someone has a really great experience, they're gonna be really loud and proud about it. And if someone has a really cruddy experience, they're gonna be really loud and proud about it. But there's this whole range of people who have. You know, fine.Little positive, a little negative, that are experiencing this. So it's, it's a biased view of things. And I'm, you know, there's so many people out there, to your point, who are out there saying, I've had this great experience, this is amazing. Not even on social media, but in conversation, oh, it was so hot.It was this, it was that. Right? So suddenly starting to share their positive experiences, there's so much more shame when it becomes, I wasn't quite sure what to do, you know? . So you mentioned for instance, enthusiasts. Right? So obviously if someone is enjoying their experiencing and having a positive experience, just like the reviewers, they're more likely to say it out loud to say a proud, and then if you have people who perhaps have really negative traumatic experiences or very uncomfortable experiences, sometimes.They might be willing to go and advocate and say, this isn't right. I'm guessing that there's so many people who are not saying anything loudly at all, one way or the other. So you're, you're getting these polar extremes of either really sort of very important, you know, dangerous, traumatic experiences that we need to be talking about.And everything is sort of free love and it's so wonderful and it was this great, experience. I guess what I'm curious about from that perspective is just like with the reviews, right? When you're going in, how can people kind of inoculate or can be aware of not just social media, but some of the stories that are spread on campus?Do you have a sense of that, how those things get their own, almost like myth?I think one of the narratives that I would like to question, and have students think about is, Hookup culture is often described as sexual liberation, but it's somehow the end point of a process of freeing sexuality from others as crew control. And that when we finally reached liberation, , this is what it looks like., and you know, there's this tendency to. Have this like fictional idea of what repression looks like that's based in the Victorian era, you know? And it's like nobody did it or talked about it or looked at it or anything. And so the opposite of not doing it is doing it right. And so thenbelt or.uhhuh, so to be liberated is to say yes.Yes. Say, you know, say yes to anybody who turns you on. Say Yes, under any circumstances. Say yes to anything to embrace, kink, to embrace, you know, , to sort of try to shed every single part of you that might say no, or wait, or maybe, or, let me think about it, or, you know, whatever it might be. And so I just wanna suggest that. Sexual liberation isn't the right to say yes. It's the right to say yes or no, or maybe, or maybe later, under any circumstances to anyone for any reason and without being told that you're doing it wrong. And that's so obviously true once we say it out loud. But our listeners, I'm nodding vigorously. I'm nodding vigorously. For those of you who can't see me, I'm going, yes, you're so right. Preach, Lisa.But that, that narrative, that hookup culture is what freedom looks like, is, is a real problem. And, and by the way, you know, it's gendered, it's because we have always assumed that men were free and women weren't. And so a feminine way of being sexual stereotypically in our society got cast as repression.And the stereotypical way of being sexual in a masculine way got cast as liberation. So now you have a whole group of students on college campuses trying to be sexually liberated by being as much like a stereotypical boy as they can be. Which might be fine for some people, which is fine for some people, but obviously it wouldn't serve the whole range of desires that human beings have.When you think about it that way, you're like, how many humans are there on the. Planet. Certainly there's not just one way to be sexually liberated. I know we're running short on time, but you just mentioned a really important myth that you hear. Are there other myths that you find that you just wanna sh give a quick shout out to? , I mentioned the one earlier, the idea that women are sort of biologically inferior in their capacity to enjoy sex without,, romantic connection. There's no way we could possibly know that because every woman in America has grown up in a sexist society and in a sexist sexual culture.So, given that that's, that's true, there'd be no way to know, but , I strongly would like us to consider the possibility that the reason that women tend to dislike hooking up somewhat more than men is because it doesn't serve them as well as it serves men.Mm-hmm. Any resources for the people who are out there and their, their heads are in finals right now, or they're listening and it's summer, they're like, there's nothing I can do. I'm not even at school. Or they're saying, I just can I please just have a way to navigate through without becoming an advocate for it.Right. Are there resources you feel that are helpful besides obviously reading your book I mean, I just really encourage them to turn to one another because. That's where they're gonna find out how normal they really are. That's where they're gonna find support for the various desires that they have, and that's where the new ideas are gonna come from, right? In the end, like I could talk to students and I could write a book about hookup culture, but, I am confident that young people themselves are going to reinvent sexuality in the next decades in ways that I cannot imagine and that are not regressive, but don't go backwards, but go forward in this really weird new reality that we're all living in. They are gonna be the innovators and their children. So I really encourage students to start talking to one another. I, I mean, I guess I've said it over and over again, but turn to one another as sources of support and inspiration because I do think that, I do have a lot of faith in students that they, they have it in them to fix this problem and to bring about something. Marginally better, right? Because it's hard, but marginally better and more forward thinking than what we have now.right.I, I love them. I'd love them to realize that hookup culture is not the end or, or an end point or a destination. That it's a stage, and where it comes next is up to them.I love that idea. I, I feel like we have to end it there. I, I have chill bumps with that sort of call to action. And, if there's one thing we know about students right now is they, They have so much heart that's, that's not the anything that they lack, kind of being able to think and put forward their values, is something that they have in Spade.So, all right. So you've heard it, you've heard it there, guys. I really appreciate you coming on. This has been a thrill to talk to you. , Lisa, enjoy the rest of your afternoon.Thank you.