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Universal Childcare is Possible – New Mexico Proves It · We Can Do Better

• Fran Quigley: Welcome to We Can Do Better, a podcast about ending poverty in our time. My name is Fran Quigley, I am your host. I'm a law professor. I go to eviction court every week with my students, and in that court we represent some of the millions of people in this country who are facing the loss of their homes. These folks are also skipping filling prescriptions, they're also even going hungry despite living in the richest nation in the world. We can do better. This podcast lifts up the many people and organizations working to make housing, health care, and a decent life enforceable human rights for all. We've mentioned before on this podcast that a large percentage of people we see in eviction court are losing their homes and they also are parents of young children. In fact, the most common demographic of people losing their homes for eviction are children, ages one through five. Part of the economic struggle that they face is Is the price and availability of childcare. So that is why we are very excited today to host Jacob V. Hill, who is the Chief Legislative Officer of New Mexico Voices for Children. New Mexico Voices for Children is one of the driving organizations bet behind their state becoming last November the first state in the country to launch free universal childcare. For children from birth through age 13, regardless of household income. There are no income limits, there are no copays, families can choose the care that works best for them. That includes centers and includes home-based programs, program home-based providers, language immersion or faith-based programs, and care during evenings or weekends. So, Jacob, welcome to We Can Do Better. All right. So Jacob, if if we may start off and not bury the lead here. How did this wonderful thing come to be? There's no way that something this terrific and ambitious happened without a whole lot of advocacy, a whole lot of messaging, a whole lot of legislative work that you do that you lead for New Mexico Voices for Children. So if you can, in a in a nutshell, you know, what was the campaign about and what was the journey like? Jacob Vigil: Yeah, absolutely. I mean you're you're totally right on that. You know, this this effort, this campaign, this victory, absolutely did not happen overnight. I think really a a campaign, a movement, a coalition that kept its eyes focused on New Mexico children and families, that centered the voice of the people closest to the challenges, some of whom you you described, right? that so that those folks were leading the solution. and focus on building lasting infrastructure, of a of a system that can work for children and families. And so yeah, I mean it really it really took years. back in two thousand nine, twenty ten, New Mexico Voices for Children and a few other advocacy and organizing groups got together and really kind of put their heads together to think about what what would move the needle, what would make a difference for children in New Mexico, recognizing that we our state had long been ranked last in many rankings in terms of child well-being, right? We we have a lot of persistent historical generational poverty here, a history of extraction and economic injustice and racial inequity, right? And so all of that was at the forefront of folks' minds. And I would say that you know, it really kind of began, I I I use the term revenue campaign because it was about it was about identifying a source of funding, and then and the policy intervention, which we identified as early childhood care and education, but looking really for those resources, right? And understanding like this isn't just about getting a a a a small piece of a pie, you know, it's every state's different, but you know, the budget pie. often is very it feels very finite or very fluctuating, Fran Quigley: Right. Right. Jacob Vigil: right? So so yeah, the the the organizing, the folks who are the folks who work in the field, right? Childcare, workers, educators, and then a broad campaign that that really brought in more folks, including immigrant rights organizers, youth, that sort of traditional early childhood advocates, but also many others who had not been in this space and and really leveraging a a a legislative campaign, right, to get a a constitutional resolution passed so it could go to the voters, which took, you know, about ten years to get that passed. and then and then many things along the way in terms of strategy and compromises and or you know, decisions about or the C four work, right? was a a piece of it as well. The the changing the complexion of the legislature so that it was more amenable to eventually the passage, but also accumulating sort of smaller victories along the way that ended up being really important stepping stones and building blocks toward the f the final goal, which was getting that funding from the Land Grant Permanent Fund, which the voters approved in 2022 by 70%. and yeah, that that will formed the basis, but certainly was not the only or the last step in getting to universal child. care. right. So that's that's a whole other sort of section of the story. after that campaign, up till this last year. Fran Quigley: Okay. That's that's great. Now you mentioned C four for folks who don't know, I assume you're referring to five one C four, which is when a nonprofit can do lobbying, which is sounds like that's a lot of what you do is lobbying legislators. Is that correct? Jacob Vigil: Yeah, it's part of what we do. I mean I I I do we're a C three, so I I Fran Quigley: Okay. Jacob Vigil: my lobbying lobbying is is limited, but but the C four I yeah, mostly referring to kind of like the electoral campaign word. Fran Quigley: Okay. And so you you you mentioned that at at one stage and a really important stage that in 2022, 70% of the voters supported at childcare at the statewide level. So what kind of messaging? I mean, I guess let me if I could compartmentalize it. When you're talking to lawmakers and you already mentioned having to find the revenue, I assume when you talk to lawmakers, you have to have a different kind of message or at least a a different variation of message than you do when you're talking to the public. So If I could ask you kind of that two part question, what what message worked best with legislators and lawmakers and presumably people in charge of budgets, and what message worked best with the general public that eventually endorsed this by seventy percent? Jacob Vigil: Yeah, so I think what w some of the things that really resonated with lawmakers were sort of framing childcare as as an economic issue and a children's issue, right? This is about workforce in our state needs highly qualified, diverse professionals who who can like build our economy, people to be able to work and go to school. And so that economic argument I think held a lot of weight. I think the fact that affordable childcare helps businesses, workers, and communities. It's not just individual families that benefit from it. So there's there's so many sort of resonating impacts from that. And that that long-term, right, that that long-term dedicated funding right is something that you know allows childcare to be that sort of that universal. what do we call what do we call it? The like something that that everyone should have access to, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Fran Quigley: Yeah, well we use the human rights term. I'm a lawyer, so we use that term a lot. try to don't don't try to legalize everything, but that's what do you that's how we that' that's how we frame it usually. Jacob Vigil: Yeah, yeah. And and it's not just about it workforce support, right? I mean, that we're talking about brain builders, we're talking about education, safe, healthy environments where children's brains are growing and and they're being nurtured in community by you know, through those those nurturing relationships. The science backs that up. I think that was another big thing of you know, throughout those years of the campaign is we were able to show and build champions in the legislature who could understand like, yeah, this this does investing those early years particularly just has so many good benefits down the road in terms of health outcomes, educational outcomes, right, societal costs, right. and so that be being ch children's advocates, right, we're we're able to to emphasize that. but then for communities voters, right, we're talking about something that, you know, I think this this word is is very much in vogue right now, but this idea of affordability, but is is is salient. But I think more it's like it's it's it's bigger than that, right? It's about economic justice. It's about these resources, the what whether it's like in your state at the wealth generated in your state through taxes, or in our in our case, right, we're we're sort of a resource natural resource dependent state, oil and gas, that that is that is something that should come back and benefit communities, that it should that we should think collectively about what what our state, what our lawmakers invest the budget in. And I think communities really saw that as resonant, like pre-K, childcare, home visiting, those things are are are things that could help their children get ahead and and just make life a lot easier for families. who are struggling with the exorbitant costs of childcare, right? And we all know the statistic, I think about twelve the up to twelve thousand dollars a year is what families Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Jacob Vigil: are saving, not you know, not that 'cause they get to keep in their pocket by having free childcare. And so yeah, just makes sense that this is really kind of catching on and around the country. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Well, we certainly see clients who have been struggling to pay rent, but their childcare costs are about equal to their rent. I mean, they're literally paying as much to have their kids cared for as as they are to to keep a roof over their head. And so, like you say, that's a challenge that not is not just for low income families, middle income families and even high to middle income families can really struggle with the cost of childcare and and that of course keeps some parents out of the workforce or keeps them unreliable members of the workforce perhaps if they don't have have strong and consistent childcare. So it's interesting, isn't it, that businesses oftentimes will be almost reflexively anti-tax or or or at least concerned about it. But this is a, as you mentioned, a workforce issue. So did you have members of like small business communities or Chamber of Commerce types, et cetera, come and and be supportive of this, saying that this if we have universal child care, it's gonna help us keep our workers, you know, safe and and and showing up and consistent in the in the workplace. Jacob Vigil: Yeah, I would say we did. I th I think that that was important having having the business community on board and and really really catching that vision, right? Understanding like what that what that means for them, right? I mean this is not childcare isn't really a a a partisan issue, it's it's an economic issue, it's edge about education. I think those folks in the business community care about education, they care about a stable workforce. and so yeah, that was definitely the case. I think and it also helped that we're not right our in in New Mexico's particular case, we were not advocating for sort of a new tax or raising revenue in that way, but we're looking at really kind of tapping a a permanent fund, a source of a source of revenue that our our state had that would not impact the taxpayer. Fran Quigley: And so can you talk a little bit about that revenue? Because I do think that's gonna be something that certainly we and and other advocates across the country are gonna w you don't run into a lot of people who would say having universal childcare or at least greatly expanded childcare is a bad thing, but then you get that question, how are you gonna pay for it? So what was the answer in New Mexico that you came came to that this is a way that we can afford this and and be the first state in the union to do it? Jacob Vigil: Yeah. yeah, absolutely. And that that'll give me a chance to maybe talk about kind of how how we got from the campaign to the to the actual current universal childcare. Cause I think the leadership, the executive leadership in our state played a huge role in that. That should that should actually absolutely be acknowledged, concurrent with and and subsequent to the the campaign. It was really grassroots led. but the so the source of revenue in New Mexico, we have a land grant permanent fund that was that is sort of a sovereign wealth fund that comes through the production of oil and gas. We're we're the second largest oil producing state in the country, and just experienced a real big boom in the last several years with that. So that that in order to increase the distribution. From that fund to the to the state budget required a con voter approved constitutional amendment. So that's what we were fighting for. But in that story, I think that it's important to recognize that there were there were some compromises and ideas that popped up during before that that one at the ballot box, including the creation of another dedicated trust fund. We call it the Early Childhood Trust Fund, that also comes from oil and gas revenue. And that almost entirely funds. universal child care right now. Fran Quigley: Mm. Jacob Vigil: So and that fund wouldn't exist without sort of the this grasp the long, you know, years long effort as well. And then two other things would be the creation of a dedicated early childhood department. you know, states around the country are are more and more doing this. I think Illinois is is the most recent one to have their own dedicated department. So we set up ours in 2020. And then it it was the COVID pandemic that and the The use of federal ARPA relief funds that our governor sort of leveraged very heavily to increase eligibility to sort of salvage the child care subsidized child care sector and then raise eligibility to 400% and eliminate co-pays. And then once the federal funds expired, our state funds through the through the land grant permanent fund and the tr the early childhood trust fund. We're able to kind of seamlessly fill in the gap. And so we had that source of revenue to continue that eligibility. And then fast forward a couple of years, and the governor announced, okay, we're just going to eliminate all remaining income barriers and it will be free for everyone. and so that that's how we got where we are. And certainly the coalition may r remains a very important and critical voice in this process because We we're still active, we're still making sure that the implementation, the workforce issues, compensation and wages, that those are still addressed as we're building this system very rapidly. and so that that's very much ongoing work. Fran Quigley: Well I don't I don't I don't want to minimize what you accomplished because among the other aspects you mentioned that the ARPA funds were used American Rescue Plan, right? it's that funds were used to extend childcare, which is wonderful, but that those funds were available across the nation and a lot of ARPA programs across the nation, maybe I would venture to say probably most of them. are very much underfunded now or even extinct because the money did run out. But you all managed to figure out a way to to keep the dollars flowing after the the COVID relief inspired funds at had run out. So that's that's amazing. And so I'm interested when you talk with folks, you mentioned Illinois, when you talk with folks around the nation, which I know you do a lot of because you all are an inspiration to folks around the nation, where do you see the difference between New Mexico now having universal childcare and other places that may have hodgepodge of programs or pieces or be hopefully steps along the journey that you've already reached the destination. What what's different about New Mexico compared to the other states where this hasn't happened yet? Jacob Vigil: Yeah. Well, you know, I I don't know if a whole lot is I I think what what is more sort of maybe surprising or or hopeful is that there's a lot more that's similar, right? I think one thing that's that makes Mex New Mexico unique is is our s our sort of fiscal and our political circumstances, right? We had we had a big sovereign wealth fund. I I think that like You know, only Alaska's sovereign wealth is is larger than ours, the combination of our trust fund and the permanent fund. and and not every state can replicate that, right? But I think the other issues are very similar, right? We're talking about the availability of care in communities, right, that that meets families' needs, home based, center based, whatever it might be, the cr the chronic and and historical and persistent under underpayment of of childcare workers right weighing earning poverty wages right that was real a systemic issue here as it is pretty much everywhere and so these issues were not resolved or solved when we when we made this big change right so these are things that we're still working on but what I do tell states right like the the things and then of course we had the we had the political leadership and will and circumstances here but what I tell other states is that we we began with the revenue idea you can begin with a revenue idea. And I and I think that every state has sort of not just the possibility to like look at its their state budget for grassroots folks, everyday folks, to be like, hey, why why you know we're giving tax breaks to millionaires, billionaires or corporations coming in, data centers are coming in. what what a grassroots campaign that like gets real fired up about that allocation of revenue about who pays their fair share in tax revenue, right, should be a conversation about things like childcare, right? It's not just like, tax the wealthier corporations, but what is that, what can that be used for, right? so that's one thing that I think organizers, advocates in every state can do. The other thing is that that broad grassroots organizing campaign, right? Like every state has advocates and voices in c in their communities. some who have long time who have been engaged for a long time in in childcare and early early childhood issues, some who never have, right? But like they can be joined up in in a in a campaign that is about economic justice and thriving and families having what they need, because everyone cares about costs, right? Housing costs are rising, food insecurity, health care, This is one thing that I think every everyone can get behind. So that's what I tell states, right? Those are the things that every state can can do. Fran Quigley: Okay. Well, and as as you mentioned, starting with starting with the revenue, because then then arguably the and the the case is easier after that because it it it does help businesses, it does help the community, and and like you say, that the science is is behind you. you you mentioned that the governor recently, I think it was last November, expanded the program so that there is no more income limits. It's universal. And I wondered if that mattered and is even when you had it before it was universal at a pretty high income ceiling in terms I think folks who are four hundred percent of federal poverty were were entitled to access the program. We're used to dealing with representing very poor people and they're dependent on programs like the TANF program, temporary assistance to needy families, or even food stamps, which seems like they're constantly being attacked, they're constantly being reduced, et cetera. And The folks who benefit from them are not very politically powerful and they're not a very big political block in terms of just pure population too. So does it matter? Is it helpful for the political building and now political survival of the program that it's universal? That you do have folks who are middle income, who are maybe more active in their communities, folks who are even high middle income who benefit from the program. Does universality universality actually help in terms of the program's political health. Jacob Vigil: Yeah. I would say so. I I yeah, I've I've heard, you know, the we've talked about this term, right? The durability, the political durability of policies that are that are sort of seen as as a universal right, right, for for all folks of all income wages. I I mean I think that's that's the truth, right? I think that it became much more difficult for policymakers to sort of oppose this or or argue against it when when you had, yeah, more more folks saying, hey, like I now I'm eligible and I've got I've gotten my child into this center and it's gonna that's that's not something they want to give up. But I I will say though that there the the flip side of that I think comes from like the the perspective of policymakers who who are stewards of right the state budget and and have to make tough fiscal decisions and and they I think there definitely was a lot of conversation more I think more conversation about like, well, is this something we should be giving our you know what what a lot of people s perceive to be limited limited resources to folks who are at the higher end of the income scale. And so there were in the final bill that was passed to codify the the program into law, there actually were some fiscal safeguards that were put in that when if if economic conditions meet meet certain Or get to a certain point then then like co-payments and and wait lists will kick in for the highest, Fran Quigley: Hm. Jacob Vigil: highest income. That hasn't happened yet. We don't anticipate that happening. but it was it was sort of a concession that that recognized that like, hey, we don't wanna like have to make cuts in this. We don't and and we're we're used to sort of riding that revenue roller coaster of oil and gas prices and production. I think what insulates us from that a lot is that we have created these these sovereign wealth funds that are that are growing so quickly and so massively in and of themselves that they are not so dependent on them on the on energy market. so we're a little bit more insulated from that. So I'm confident that we will continue to sustain this. right. But but that is something that yeah, having that that universality makes it I think that much more durable. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Well, I hope you never have to face that time, but it'd be interesting to see what would happen because you know the cliche is that social social security is the third rail of US politics. Don't you touch it and you die because all of us benefit from it, right? It'd be interesting to see whether again, hopefully you never face that if they try to take the proverbial soccer mom's childcare subsidies away, if that would actually be politically toxic for the lawmakers. You you mentioned the the f folks bringing their kids to a childcare center, but the the program actually provides access to home c home based providers and faith-based programs and and evenings and weekends, et cetera. Was there a discussion along the way about the different types of of child care? Because I know that for for individual families and and sometimes for communities, they have to make choices about What are we going to prioritize the actual larger centers or, you know, the auntie down the street who, you know, takes in three or four kids at a time? Was that something that you all discussed in when when the program was being built? Jacob Vigil: yeah, yeah. I mean, to the extent that the a mixed delivery system is is sort of the the foundation, right? It's it's it's and I think this is true most in most places in America, right? We have we have this really robust mixed delivery system where you have home-based providers, private center-based, for profit, school-based, faith-based, all those things. And so I think as even before, you know, years ago when we were we had a lot lower eligibility and fluctuations in the budget. I think that the goal was really to to make sure that all care the care was accessible and that it was high quality and so like you know most states have implemented like a quality rating improvement system or a star rating system that like gets the the professionalization of the field and the the in the increased emphasis on quality and education has really been across the board. New Mexico's no exception to that. and so when when we were starting to expand eligibility and make this universal, there really st still was a recognition that like all those providers need a way to be a part of this system and and what that means, it looks it looks like different things, right? It's like what are how do we guarantee that that folks are being paid well enough? How do we guarantee that the home-based providers have the support they need to set up their businesses and and have the and meet the quality? and safety requirements to get license and things like that in their home. and and how do we recruit and bring on and make it more easier for providers of all types to operate in the areas where where they're needed, right? So so those were already things we were working on systemically, right? That so that didn't change with the announcement. I think what the announcement and the removal of income barrier eligib eligibility barriers did was kind of accelerate that movement. And think to the credit of the department and the governor, like they, they really kicked into high gear, recognizing like, okay, we just built demand, but now we have to really work on the supply. And they've really been doing that. We've increased our slots by, you know, thousands. it's still a lot of work. There's still a lot of work to be done. but we're, you know, everyone, everyone's sort of engaged and all hands on deck in making that happen. So Fran Quigley: That's just so great. Well, I'm sure the challenge, one of the challenges when you're increasing your slots by the thousands, are are finding workers who will do the do the work and be high quality childcare providers, but also themselves be paid living wages and work at a at in good working conditions. I have to say, in eviction court, we not only see a lot of families who struggle to pay for childcare, unfortunately we see child care providers who are making very low wages and and for various reasons are facing the loss of their homes because they're just on that economic red line. So what what does the program do to ensure that the the workers themselves are are are making a living wage and able to care for themselves and their families that's while they care for other other people's children too. Jacob Vigil: Yeah, that's a great question. And that's that's that that issue of compensation has really been at the heart of what the coalition and what advocates have been pushing for. I I think one of the great things our state has done is is switch to a a cost model sort of method of of paying for childcare. So like, you know, reimbursing providers based on the cost of care. and so reimbursement rates here are really high. Providers get compensated really well per child. and and so and the state has done a a number of things to kind of incentive or you know, things like we have a infant toddler pay parity pilot program. we have most notably, I think a wage and career lattice that stakeholders have kind of put together and designed. and that was in the works before this announcement of universal child care. And so what we're hoping to see is that that wage and career lattice is funded and implemented because what that would do is really kind of create a a wage and compensation structure that's tied to education and experience and in the in across all levels of. employers or employees in a childcare setting, right? So from the center director to the support staff to the educators to the caregivers, right, it would, it would, it would help address that compensation issue. So that's still in the works. and the and funding for that was included in this last in the this last state budget that we advocated for. So Yeah, and and I think, you know, our our our state really recognizes that they're the the providers are the linchpin. They're they're the foundation of this system. They're the ones there working with the kids, building, you know, educating them, building young brains. And so we can't have those folks, you know, having to depend on public benefits when, you know, particularly when, you know, folks at the higher end of the income scale are are getting this this huge benefit of subsidized childcare right it just doesn't it doesn't sit well with policymakers. It doesn't, it's just not I I think that's the the additional piece of the economic justice argument is having these having this be a a viable career where where people can really make a living and and be compensated well for doing the work that they love. And and you know as as in most places, the childcare workforce is largely women, largely women of color And so it it really also is that that racial justice issue as well. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah. And I in in the reading that I've done before our our conversation today, it was really interesting to see the ways that because this is a government program, that there's ways to build in incentives that that maybe isn't isn't so necessary or isn't available in a in a true solely market based program. So if I'm t correct me if I'm wrong, I see that there's extra benefits and and incentives for childcare provider to be paying eighteen dollars an hour or more for their workers at to stay open ten hours or more a day to be more convenient for working families and and and that's really interesting. Did though have you seen that those incentives, you know, do provide that or do cause wages to go up and availability to to be increased? Jacob Vigil: Yeah, I think that's been a great start. I think, yeah, the the the enhanced rate is what you're referring to, which that was implemented with with this universal childcare. And that's a that's a really great start because it does it does provide that added incentive for for owners and providers to pay pay their workers well and and that's you know, that's good for retention, that's good for quality. I think that the the long-term solutions I think need to be a little more systematic. And when you have a base wage that's higher you might run into issues of compaction where people have been in the field a long time are higher up on the on the seniority scale can't providers can't afford to or you know it's it's hard for them to like also raise the those folks salaries, right? And so we need something that's that's sort of comprehensively addresses that you that responsibly uses public funds to to to compensate workers well, recognizing the whole range of of staff who who go into making a child care, a childcare business or childcare site really work. so but yeah, the incentive and the and the enhanced rate was really a great a great step toward acknowledging that yeah, we n we need to we need to have at least a a a a minimum, a floor of of what we're going to say that that folks who are educating our children and caring for them should earn. Fran Quigley: Yeah. So in terms of the the good problems that forty nine other states would like to have, I'm sure that you do have, even with the universal child care program, some challenges not only for childcare and and administering of that, but other against New Mexico voices for children, other children, child based economic issues. So what are the the current challenges you're working on to make this program as good as possible and and other economic issues surrounding the childcare and and the the the f the well being of young people in your in your estate. Jacob Vigil: Yeah, well we you know we work on a range of issues. I mean my my background in particular has been childcare and early childhood care and education, but I oversee a team of analysts and experts who work on everything from healthcare and health policy to public benefits, food insecurity, income and wealth, immigration policy and climate. policy in particular. So we're looking at all the things that really kind of impact holistic child wellbeing and family economic security. So, you know, I I think that the the threats to health coverage, Medicaid and SNAP in particular are are very much on the forefront of our minds. I think that, and and you can't separate these issues, or I mean I think that med the threats to Medicaid are le you know are our threats to those most vulnerable in our communities, right? Who were just we're proud of all the progress we've made in New Mexico, but the but this is just I think it's a it's a it's a pressure that a every state is facing. and so you know filling in the gaps with SNAP funding. also things, you know, we things that we've passed already that that that that we're we're we need to continue to monitor like implementation of right. So things like the child tax credit, working families tax credit, right? Like How is that is that money getting into the pockets of families? How can we improve uptake and and things like that? and then talking about things like wealth building, guaranteed basic income, cash payment programs, those are very much on the minds of of policymakers here. We're we're in the we're in an election year, and so we're looking at big ideas because we have a lot of we have a lot of money in New Mexico with these the sovereign wealth funds. So can what what's possible with healthcare, like expanding healthcare? coverage or access to folks using state funds, what's possible in the realm of like cash payments to help families who've just had a baby or even things like baby bonds to build wealth over time. while also, you know, being on the defensive for things like immigration policy, climate, you know, we're looking at reducing emissions, you know, help a just transition away from oil and gas where that where like the workforce has something viable to transition into while we're attending to the the impacts on our environment and public lands and things like that. So all these issues are inner interconnected. I think that childcare presents an exciting and inspiring example of like what a a a grassroots you know, a campaign, a movement can really work toward and achieve. And so I don't think there's I you know. it there's no limit on what what could possibly be next when you have that kind of that kind of vision and leadership, right? Fran Quigley: Right. Well, you you say an exciting and s inspiring example for what else you can accomplish in New Mexico, but it is this is an exciting and inspiring example for the other forty nine states. And you mentioned, you know, that there's money available in the sovereign wealth fund, but that you all need to take the victory lap for making sure the money went to this incredibly important cause because it's easy for the money to go to more tax cuts for the wealthy or for something that's not as productive for the people who need it the most. So thank you. Thank you, Jacob, for coming on the show. Thank you to you and all of your colleagues at New Mexico Voices for Children and all your your coalition members for not just what you're doing for the the children and the families of New Mexico, but the example you're setting for the rest of us. So hopefully X number of years from now, we can have you on to talk about all these other states that have followed in your footsteps. but until then, thank you for for coming and talking with us and and thank you for the for the the the proof of concept that this can work and can happen. Jacob Vigil: Absolutely. Thank you, friend. Appreciate you having me.