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Ep 4: Growing a Firm Through Its Values · The Managing Partners' Table

• 0:00
  So hello and welcome to another episode of the Managing Partner Table.
• 0:03
  With us today, I have Shira Katz Scanlon, who's a managing partner at Martine Katz Scanlon and Schimmel.
• 0:08
  And I am very excited to chat through her story and where her firm started and where it is today.
• 0:13
  So thanks for joining us.
• 0:15
  Thank you so much.
• 0:15
  I'm so excited.
• 0:17
  Yeah, so I kinda I always loved to hear how people got into that role of running a law firm.
• 0:22
  Was that always something that you planned to do when you went to law school or ~ an accidental owner?
• 0:28
  I never thought of it, and if you had offered me the classes that I say now people should learn in college and law school, I probably wouldn't have taken them.
• 0:37
  I never really aspired to own a firm.
• 0:40
  ~ yeah, so how did it happen?
• 0:44
  I went to law school, I did a clerkship which was one year with a judge in New Jersey, and then I got a job as an associate of baby lawyer in a family law firm where I met
• 0:57
  Sarah, who is my Sarah Martin Belphi, who is both my best friend and my business partner.
• 1:04
  ~ we realized after about I had only been working there for about two and a half years, and we realized that between the two of us, we had done one of everything.
• 1:12
  We had an opportunity to make lawyering feel a little bit different than the sort of old school model, which was very much created by a certain type of
• 1:26
  person, right?
• 1:27
  It was men who created this model.
• 1:30
  They had wives at home doing the, the fifties housewives.
• 1:34
  That right, if that was that's what society was based on.
• 1:38
  And we realized that we could we could do things differently.
• 1:41
  So we set out to give do the same legal work and the same amazing client work and also make life
• 1:49
  feel a little bit different for lawyers and we were just fortunate that we've been able to and our team as well, not just the lawyers, but so we've real we're starting to realize
• 1:58
  that.
• 1:59
  That's great.
• 2:00
  I think so many times it's often that our lives wind up being run by the firm versus creating the firm around the lives and lifestyle that we want.
• 2:08
  So ~ we'll definitely have to dig into how actually why don't we get into that now?
• 2:13
  I'd love to talk about what that looks like for both you guys and everyone else on your team too and how you've built that maybe and it's changed over time.
• 2:20
  Yeah, so there's definitely been an evolution.
• 2:23
  So we started out being very focused, intentional, deliberate, whatever the word is.
• 2:30
  We we started out thinking about our culture and we talked a lot about that even before those conversations were really happening out in the world about what corporate culture
• 2:40
  felt like.
• 2:41
  So at the time we opened the firm, I was relatively newly married.
• 2:47
  ~ Sarah had a two year old, two and a half year old.
• 2:50
  And we had other commitments and obligations.
• 2:54
  So I've had I've had two kids since we opened the firm.
• 2:57
  One was kind of in the second year.
• 3:00
  ~ the my first kid was in the second year of the firm.
• 3:02
  So the firm really is my first baby.
• 3:05
  And so we were without having all the tools and vocabulary, we have a lot more of those now.
• 3:11
  We always knew that we wanted this to be a place where you could be a person.
• 3:16
  and a lawyer or paralegal or or whatever the role is.
• 3:19
  So we really try, we pride ourselves on our mission and our values being things we do, not just things we say.
• 3:26
  And some of that is so yes, we have an attorney who if we have an attorney who has small children or school age children, or we have a paralegal who has a child in school.
• 3:37
  And I still don't know why school events in December and May are all at three PM or noon or eleven AM.
• 3:43
  ~
• 3:44
  But we want to have a place where people feel like they can do that.
• 3:48
  We work hard, we take our jobs really seriously, and we're people.
• 3:52
  We're not just we're not just robots.
• 3:55
  If we I'm sure and anymore, it's even more and more likely we could probably hire robots to do some of some of these things, but ~ we don't we don't want that.
• 4:04
  We want to make sure that our our team has the quality of life.
• 4:07
  That was important to Sarah and I as well.
• 4:09
  You know, some days my day has to end at three o'clock because I have to get to baseball.
• 4:13
  I'm very much known as I'm the laptop mom in a lot of the sports teams that my kids play on because if my day had to end at three o'clock the the work has to get done somewhere,
• 4:23
  so and that's okay too.
• 4:25
  It's just about making it all fit.
• 4:27
  It just s sort of fits in a different order.
• 4:30
  Yeah, it's amazing what you can do with a hot spot and a laptop, so
• 4:34
  It really is.
• 4:35
  It really is.
• 4:36
  I felt a little judged last weekend at baseball when I had my had my computer out before it started raining.
• 4:41
  Like, you're doing this on a Sunday?
• 4:43
  I didn't get to it during the week, so sure I'm doing it on a Sunday.
• 4:47
  And also I'm here at baseball, so please no, spare your judgment.
• 4:52
  That is part of the the balance in the trade-off.
• 4:54
  And I think one of the benefits of having your own thing is you get to dictate, I might not work these hours, you know, it's during the week, but then I'll do them on the
• 5:00
  weekend.
• 5:01
  And that's part of the balance of building it for yourself too.
• 5:05
  Yeah, for sure.
• 5:05
  And we the same is true of a lot of our team, especially our attorneys.
• 5:09
  It's a little bit harder with the paralegal and our receptionists is a a little bit more traditional structure.
• 5:15
  But our attorneys, if someone needs if you're traveling this day, okay, you the work needs to get done.
• 5:21
  You're a grown up, you're gonna figure out how to get it done.
• 5:24
  And we're just you know, we're so fortunate that we've been able to find excellent people to fill our team with, 'cause that's the only way that works.
• 5:32
  Yeah.
• 5:32
  So I would love to hear more about that because I know that's a challenge that I think a lot of people have is are is finding the right teammates and talent.
• 5:39
  So how do you source people?
• 5:41
  What's the interview process like?
• 5:42
  How do you make sure that they're a good fit for the firm?
• 5:45
  It's so tough.
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  So a lot of our growth has been very organic.
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  ~ in terms of people will just approach us and say, Hey, we see what you've built.
• 5:53
  that looks good.
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  I want in, ~ which is incredible.
• 5:57
  We're so we're so we're I don't want to say surprise.
• 6:01
  We've worked really hard, we've been very intentional about building that.
• 6:04
  It's nice to be recognized, the validation is there's something to be said for other people seeing that.
• 6:10
  So that's where a lot of our growth has come from.
• 6:11
  So Sarah and I started the firm this year.
• 6:14
  December will be 14 years.
• 6:15
  And in 2019, we added a third partner.
• 6:19
  The same month in 2019, we added, had someone else come join the firm who was a very experienced, attorney again, just kind of approached us and we said, sure.
• 6:31
  ~ and then we had ~ Drexel.
• 6:34
  Drexel's Law School does a co-op program just like their undergrad.
• 6:37
  And we had a co-op student one year.
• 6:40
  Well, she became our very first associate.
• 6:42
  She was the first associate that we hired.
• 6:45
  And then as we've grown, we've just added staff and we've added ~ added paralegals, we've added positions.
• 6:52
  we really need a full-time receptionist.
• 6:54
  we really need a director of operations so that we are maximizing our skill sets.
• 7:00
  But for the most part, we just
• 7:02
  They find us, I think.
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  So just really for us it's mostly largely been a matter of just build if you build it, they will come.
• 7:10
  So th those of a certain age will know that field of dreams reference, right?
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  So we have just built the amazing thing and then we're often largely sought out.
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  And then every once in a while we have to you know, we put an ad out, we work with professionals.
• 7:24
  I'm a big proponent of letting experts do what they are expert in.
• 7:30
  I ~
• 7:31
  very good at lawyering.
• 7:33
  I am not a recruiter.
• 7:35
  I don't know what to look for.
• 7:37
  I don't know the right way to write a job description.
• 7:40
  So we have you know we have people help us when we when we do need to do that.
• 7:46
  Is there anything in that that you ~ look back now and you think, ~ I wish we had hired for that role sooner or I wish I had outsourced this part faster?
• 7:54
  Because I know that letting go and not having to do everything can sometimes be difficult.
• 8:00
  Yeah, so I did a lot of the things.
• 8:02
  So yes, hard, yes, full stop.
• 8:05
  Yes, I should have done almost everything that we hired.
• 8:07
  I have never and I tell this to firm owners all the time, especially before they hire their first associate.
• 8:13
  I hear this a lot.
• 8:14
  ~ I don't know.
• 8:16
  I was really, really busy two months ago, but then last month I wasn't that busy.
• 8:20
  And what would happen?
• 8:22
  Again, it's if you build it, they will come.
• 8:24
  I have never regretted a hire.
• 8:27
  the scariest hires to me were always the ones who weren't attorneys or are people who are actually generating because I can think about an attorney and say, Okay, I need them to
• 8:39
  bill X many hours a week at this is their hourly rate and I can actually do the math and do some planning and projecting about, okay, they're gonna be I am not going to have to
• 8:50
  come entirely kind of out of pocket, if you will, for their salary.
• 8:55
  ~
• 8:55
  The director of operations, previously firm administrator, office manager.
• 8:59
  We've we've we've changed the title a bit, ~ because the role has grown as well.
• 9:05
  ~ she was that is I should have made that hire sooner.
• 9:09
  we were able to offload our collections and retain and replenishments and sending out fee agreements and things that not only could take things off of shareholder or
• 9:19
  partner or attorney in general, but it also was able to ease up some of our some of what we were ~ asking our paralegals and admins to do that was not the highest and best use of
• 9:29
  their time.
• 9:30
  So really when we have I am always trying within the confines of we want people to enjoy their lives and be whole people, not just our employees.
• 9:40
  so like sort of within that framework, I'm always looking for, okay, so how do we maximize each of the seats that we have?
• 9:47
  And when everyone is
• 9:49
  comfortable, that's when it's time to start looking out for okay, as we i are we adding more, are we doing more, or do we need to bring someone else in?
• 9:56
  Because we never want anyone to be uncomfortable that's because they have so much.
• 10:02
  Yeah, it sounds like you're very growth oriented that once you get to that one plateau you're looking for the next stage of that.
• 10:07
  I
• 10:08
  it's ~ always, yeah.
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  And
• 10:11
  not even intent it's more right, it's more about just making sure that our I think without having that mindset and that willingness, we risk sort of jeopardizing our culture and
• 10:23
  what we set out to build.
• 10:24
  But yeah, we're always in growth mode, I think.
• 10:27
  Well, let's go back to culture because if anyone's listening, and I know I'm very curious, I think the dream is to have great talent coming to you instead of having to go source it.
• 10:35
  And it also sounds like you've
• 10:36
  been really intentional with your culture and with values and how you're incorporating those into different parts of the firm.
• 10:42
  Is there anything that you think that you've done that you're like, this is something that people have expressed that they love about the way we do things, or that you feel like
• 10:48
  you've been able to get how you operate out there beyond just in front of your clients?
• 10:54
  Yeah, so I think that making sure that all of the values that we strive to achieve for clients, which I think is where most firms that's probably what most people are thinking
• 11:04
  of when they're thinking about their their firm values is largely client facing.
• 11:09
  We very deliberately thought about every single way that we could be internal and and team facing as well when we were sort of engaged in that exercise.
• 11:19
  ~ so I think just
• 11:23
  naming it sometimes is really important and keeping it at the forefront because if you don't think about it, it's liable not to be thought of and it's likely to be forgotten.
• 11:34
  We did an exercise recently with with the team that sort of said, you know, if we had a new employee starting, what would you point to?
• 11:41
  What would you what behaviors would they see that you could say, that's a great example of our value?
• 11:46
  So I think that's kind of the question you're asking.
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  So that's well I'll answer it that way, which is
• 11:52
  A lot of the team and by the way, highly recommend having a team meeting and asking questions about how great you're doing as a leader, as long as you are, because it was so
• 12:03
  gratifying and so lovely to hear members of our team.
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  And we have we have issues, right?
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  Like we have people problems.
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  The people are the biggest problem of the firm.
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  If they were all robots, I think it would all be much easier if no one had feelings or you know, motivations or or whatever, because that we are still dealing in people.
• 12:22
  and for those same people who cause nobody's perfect, right?
• 12:27
  So like for those same people then to be looking and answering this question by saying, Well, you all, as in the I think the partners and the leadership within the firm, always
• 12:37
  made me feel comfortable that we could come ask a question if I didn't know how to do something, if I didn't know where something was, having forms and having the office, the
• 12:46
  door just be open and having that opportunity where
• 12:50
  They knew it was safe to ask a question, even though maybe it felt like a dumb question, and maybe it was.
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  And also when you first start something and when you're learning something, you have to ask questions that someone who's been doing it forever might not ask.
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  That doesn't make it a dumb question, right?
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  So I think that was kind of a theme that we that we saw throughout those answers, which was very ~ I just had this moment of of pride and joy where I was like, Yeah, we did it.
• 13:17
  We did that.
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  If nothing else, we did that and we have we have created the space where everyone feels like they can ask these questions.
• 13:27
  And that's plays into the collaboration and the teamwork that we're really always emphasizing because for they can ask us questions but they can team can also ask each
• 13:36
  other questions.
• 13:38
  Yeah, that's one thing that I've seen.
• 13:40
  Some firms do really well and some that could have some area for improvement and it's being, as you said, intentional about the culture.
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  I think without thinking of it, there's sometimes the mindset of, it'll just happen, or everyone knows how we are.
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  But it's also great to hear
• 13:53
  the positive things you're doing to and to keep making time for them.
• 13:56
  I feel like it's sometimes really difficult in a busy day to make time for those questions when you'd rather just shut the door and start working through things.
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  So
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  Yeah.
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  It no it's it's hard.
• 14:05
  I have to I mean I had to get very rigid about my calendar and I have blocks and I have this is a working block and this is a thinking block and the team knows okay, what are the
• 14:14
  times that I can I see ten minutes of white space in Shea's calendar?
• 14:19
  Let me let me get in there or they know which block they can come into.
• 14:23
  that's really helpful that they have a kind of method that they could use to say, okay, I know I can hold this question versus just free access to ping you anytime.
• 14:31
  Yeah.
• 14:32
  We had to rain that.
• 14:33
  I we look we have we're at a point now where we have eight lawyers.
• 14:36
  So it was and many of them are very experienced.
• 14:40
  Of some several of them are considerably more have been practicing for longer than I have.
• 14:45
  but it's also still no matter where you are in your career, it's good to kind of bounce ideas off someone.
• 14:50
  That's the benefit of being in a firm where there are other people and and those resources.
• 14:57
  But yeah, so with once we had
• 14:59
  Once there are seven other lawyers who could potentially have questions to ask any one of us at any given time, it was it was helpful to ~ establish those parameters.
• 15:09
  A lot of lines of communication.
• 15:10
  And it's hard, when you start and when you are at different stages of growth, what works at one point won't work at another point.
• 15:16
  Is there anything that you had to really change and kind of revamp as you've grown over the years?
• 15:23
  We had to ~ my joke has always been, ~ so now we're a real law firm.
• 15:28
  ~
• 15:29
  really in twenty nineteen we started growing organically, sustainably, but also kind of exponentially.
• 15:36
  I mean, in within like I said, within one month, we went from two lawyers, which we had been two lawyers and one staff member for years.
• 15:43
  There was the three of us and that was it.
• 15:45
  And then all of a sudden now we were four lawyers.
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  So we literally doubled the size of our attorneys.
• 15:50
  ~ and probab and
• 15:52
  more than doubled our revenue basically that year in terms of our and by revenue that as a shorthand for how many clients and how much legal work we were doing.
• 16:02
  not more than double, but whatever.
• 16:03
  It was a huge jump.
• 16:05
  And ~ you know, it was that was different.
• 16:09
  it occurred to us within the last two years probably that what we were doing before then and even when that's
• 16:17
  started when there were four of us with one paralegal assistant was not the same as where we are now, which is eight lawyers and a team of as of two weeks from now, we will be a
• 16:30
  team of fifteen total.
• 16:32
  So there were definitely things we had to have an HR department, which we really we didn't really need an HR department.
• 16:39
  Maybe we did the employment lawyers will be like, no, no, you always need HR.
• 16:43
  ~ and that's probably better advice than than what we did.
• 16:46
  But all of those things are becoming having things like a handbook and actual SOPs and making sure that every role is cross trained.
• 16:57
  So there's not one person in the office who has, you know, leaves the firm, which is possible, but we like everyone to leave on good terms when they can.
• 17:08
  you know, but someone might leave or someone might get sick.
• 17:12
  ~ or have an accident, God forbid, that unexpectedly takes someone out of their role, the firm can't just stop operating because this person can't come to work.
• 17:21
  So just understanding and having some of those systems, writing things down, making sure that somebody else knows how to do every person's job was ~ daunting and super important.
• 17:35
  How did you go about that process?
• 17:37
  Did you have everyone do it individually?
• 17:38
  Were you doing it as a team?
• 17:41
  slowly.
• 17:42
  So we ~ we we did everyone I said we said to everyone, as you go about your day, ~ can you kind of just like write down what you do?
• 17:53
  Just just write it down.
• 17:54
  And I've done the same.
• 17:55
  There are certain things that only I have ever done in this firm, which is an insane way to run a business.
• 18:01
  So and I have a we you know we have the the in case I die file because we're
• 18:07
  A little bit morbid, but basically if I am unavailable for whatever reason, you have written instructions.
• 18:14
  Here are the passwords, here's how you get into the things, here's how you do each of the things.
• 18:19
  And that was daunt it was daunting, but and I'm sure it's not done, it's always so if you can't it's not just doing it either, you have to keep it updated.
• 18:28
  So
• 18:30
  Yes.
• 18:30
  And I think th they're so important though for helping to create the consistency that clients experience, especially as you have more people and there's some separation between
• 18:38
  you, the leader of culture, and then the rest of the team and as you said, team members coming in and out.
• 18:44
  Yeah, there's ~ that the consistency I think is definitely what we're always we're not necessarily using those words, but that's what we're always striving for.
• 18:54
  And again, it's internally, it's client facing and 'cause they all they all connect and they all merge.
• 19:02
  What's been your would you say biggest challenge over the years of growing the firm?
• 19:07
  So I think the people, honestly, ~ we went from it's very different to have one employee who can shoot us an email and say, Hey, can I take these days off?
• 19:21
  Of of course, of course you can take those days off.
• 19:24
  That's different when we have six non attorney staff members, right, who
• 19:31
  we need to coordinate their days off.
• 19:33
  yes, we want to make sure that everybody takes the time off that they need and and does all the things, but there is this other element of coordination.
• 19:40
  There's also an interpersonal dynamic there, this one might not get along that well with this one for whatever reason or no reason at all.
• 19:48
  And so we've had to navigate some tension.
• 19:53
  We've had to navig navigate some a little drama.
• 19:56
  What we're always striving for is that this is just
• 19:59
  A drama free zone, and we are supportive and we are collaborative, and we are people and we are not perfect.
• 20:07
  So we're looking, but it's important to have goals though, right?
• 20:10
  So I so for me the people and also personally I tend to be very a little bit concrete.
• 20:16
  I've done a few different kind of personality profiles in the in the work that we've been doing to try to just become great leaders and leaders that
• 20:26
  That team wants to work with and and work for.
• 20:31
  I am very concrete.
• 20:32
  Feelings I leave with facts, not feelings.
• 20:35
  And feelings don't always enter the chat for me.
• 20:37
  So for me, that is a a particular challenge.
• 20:40
  I will always I will never guess right as to how someone is going to react to something.
• 20:45
  And so I need to sort of compliment, find someone to compliment and
• 20:52
  Talk to me about the feelings piece of things before we just like, No, this is what we're doing 'cause I'm just very solution oriented and I just wanna ~ here's a problem, here's a
• 21:01
  solution, that's easy.
• 21:02
  Well, it's not always that easy.
• 21:05
  So
• 21:06
  Those tests, I will say, they're fantastic.
• 21:08
  We did them ~ for our team and our senior leadership too.
• 21:11
  And it really showed me similarly that I need to take some more time to chit chat and to talk with some of our team members, whereas I like to jump into the things.
• 21:18
  And we also found some good
• 21:20
  strengths and weaknesses, and it was a lot easier to kind of position where everyone should be based on this is something that they enjoy doing versus something they have to
• 21:27
  do.
• 21:29
  absolutely.
• 21:29
  And that is yeah, look, you reach a certain age and you want to continue to grow and improve and become a better version of yourself.
• 21:37
  So and that is I have a feeling that ours would be very similar.
• 21:43
  Yes.
• 21:44
  What would you say
• 21:45
  you've had to grow in, aside from the the people side?
• 21:49
  And all the things they don't teach you in law school.
• 21:51
  I guess that's enough, but
• 21:52
  that
• 21:53
  I think is really ~ what didn't I know?
• 21:56
  I could fill a book with what I you know, volumes of what I didn't know before I opened the firm.
• 22:00
  We s Sarah and I were both raised with very entrepreneurial parents.
• 22:06
  So I think if you had sort of put me down on paper, you would say, sure, this person is probably somewhat at least somewhat likely to launch some sort of
• 22:17
  venture and enterprise.
• 22:18
  I just didn't see myself that way.
• 22:20
  I think gaining the self-awareness is probably the the biggest the biggest point of growth.
• 22:26
  But you know, in terms of the mechanics, I mean I had to learn not only how to use QuickBooks, but what is QuickBooks?
• 22:36
  Right?
• 22:36
  I mean we were talking we were talking very, very very basic.
• 22:39
  We knew the lawyer stuff.
• 22:41
  That was easy.
• 22:42
  We had a lot of conversations with a lot of people who had opened firms before
• 22:47
  And they all fit the profile of what we thought we could improve on, shall we say.
• 22:54
  and being able to kind of take this season my life and a little self awareness and recognition and be able to apply it in any number of aspects.
• 23:06
  So I think that, you know, me improving my the way I approach leadership in the firm helps in my personal life as well.
• 23:13
  So personal growth is personal growth, wherever you're
• 23:16
  Wherever you're applying it.
• 23:19
  Yes, yeah, I find a lot of our people management is helpful when dealing with teenagers.
• 23:23
  So it goes both ways.
• 23:27
  I'll I'll tell ya.
• 23:28
  I'll tell
• 23:29
  ya.
• 23:29
  The the tween the tween is real.
• 23:32
  The teen years are coming for me fast.
• 23:36
  So we'll talk about that another time.
• 23:40
  It'll be great.
• 23:40
  ~
• 23:42
  and I guess with that too, you know, is there anything that like what's next for you?
• 23:46
  So you've gotten into this stage of the firm, and for you, it sounds like you've pulled yourself out and it have been really meaningful.
• 23:51
  And like, I do not need to be doing these types of tasks, which can take a long time for people to get to.
• 23:56
  It sounds like you caught onto that very early, which I personally am jealous of.
• 24:00
  A lot of people hold on to those for a long time.
• 24:02
  But what's next for you and this position in the firm?
• 24:06
  So what's next is there are still some things that I am holding on to.
• 24:10
  So we can give me a little bit of credit for what I've offloaded, but I don't know if I deserve full credit just yet.
• 24:16
  We have concrete actual plans to ha help me release some of the other things that are still lingering just because it was comfortable and easy.
• 24:26
  ~ I think that sustainable and organic growth.
• 24:31
  I know I said that before, but that is we are
• 24:35
  We we don't have a particular plan, but we are we have a concept of a plan.
• 24:40
  We would love to see our logo and see our firm in different places and see new offices in places that we don't really have a footprint right now.
• 24:52
  So we would love to have a North Jersey office.
• 24:55
  We are we have an office in Princeton, we have an office in Philly, our main office is in Cherry Hill, but we would love that.
• 25:01
  If someone called me and said, So I would love to office
• 25:05
  open an office in California.
• 25:07
  I would say I'm on the next flight and just figuring out a way, right?
• 25:11
  Not one of these sort of like corporate franchise law firms, because there are there are plenty of those, but truly having our culture and just kind of sharing what we've built
• 25:23
  with the world and spreading it would be amazing.
• 25:27
  And also we're very ~ we're very cautious.
• 25:31
  We're very intentional.
• 25:33
  So it's we're not just gonna kind of
• 25:35
  go and open an office and see what happens.
• 25:37
  It it has to be organic, it has to be it has to make sense in order to be sustainable.
• 25:42
  But I think that's ~ what the next, I don't know, ten years of MKSS looks like.
• 25:48
  Hopefully.
• 25:48
  We'll see.
• 25:49
  We'll check back in ten years.
• 25:51
  Well, I'm gonna check back in probably sooner than that, but I am excited to see, yeah.
• 25:55
  ~
• 25:58
  as we kind of wrap up, what's one piece of advice that you might give to other managing partners about things that maybe they should look at in their business or a change that
• 26:06
  they could make that you felt made a big impact for your firm?
• 26:09
  So
• 26:12
  there are a lot of things.
• 26:13
  And I know that there are a lot of areas that I'm sure there are areas I would love to hear this advice from other people too and just see what I can do.
• 26:19
  To me, I think so I'll I'll answer what I have also enjoyed that also benefits the firm, which is the mentorship piece.
• 26:27
  I do hear a lot of younger lawyers saying things like or lawyers later in their career about when they were young saying things like, you know, I
• 26:38
  I made this mistake.
• 26:39
  I didn't need to lose my job because of it.
• 26:41
  I needed to be taught what that mistake meant.
• 26:44
  Right.
• 26:45
  And so having that mentorship component is really helpful.
• 26:50
  It's also time consuming and it is an investment and it's difficult.
• 26:56
  But I also happen to gain so much if for no other reason than I always know what the twenty year olds are saying in terms of the slang.
• 27:03
  They keep me young.
• 27:04
  It makes me cool with my kids or or not, but at least I know what they're I understand what they're saying.
• 27:09
  But we always have law students and we, you know, we made that decision and we invest in that.
• 27:16
  I think it's so important to have kind of always that next generation.
• 27:19
  Like I said, our first associate was a law student who worked with us.
• 27:23
  So
• 27:24
  When we hired our first associate, because of the mentorship investment when she was in law school, she knew our systems, she knew our people, she had the she had a lot of the
• 27:34
  basics down and knew a lot of the way we worked.
• 27:37
  And so for her to come in, all right, so we need to teach you a little bit about the law that you didn't learn during your clerkship.
• 27:44
  That we can do.
• 27:45
  That's that's easy.
• 27:46
  So I think the the all around mentorship is just
• 27:52
  something I think everyone it it's a win win, it benefits everyone.
• 27:57
  Yeah, and you'd be surprised how many firms don't have a mentorship program specifically in place that they do onboard and just hope for the best with everyone, but without having
• 28:07
  kind
• 28:07
  of a plan for how to get them there.
• 28:10
  Yeah.
• 28:10
  And so it's the same kind of thing, right?
• 28:12
  Where it's the initial investment, it feels like, I don't have time for this or I don't have but you it pays off ~ exponentially when the end result is that you have a lawyer who
• 28:24
  is doing the things the way that you think they should be done as part of it and doing them well and properly and 'cause I we're also very aware these these young lawyers are
• 28:35
  representing our brand that we've worked so hard to
• 28:38
  to build and we want to protect that.
• 28:42
  May that be motivation to everyone who's waiting to hire because they feel like it's going to take too much time and they don't want to take the time to do it, that there's a light
• 28:48
  at the end of the tunnel after the trading.
• 28:51
  There sure is.
• 28:52
  There's a lot of work that I don't have to do because I have someone else to do it.
• 28:55
  Highly recommend.
• 28:57
  no one's going to say no to that.
• 28:58
  That sounds great.
• 29:00
  Right.
• 29:00
  Yeah.
• 29:01
  Love that.
• 29:03
  Well, thank you for joining us today, Cher.
• 29:05
  This was such an interesting conversation and I think also a great testament to what can happen when you have great people doing great work with a great culture and how that
• 29:13
  contributes to growth.
• 29:15
  Yeah, it really does.
• 29:17
  It's nice it's fun for me to talk about it, ~ at any opportunity.
• 29:20
  So thank you so much for the opportunity.
• 29:22
  This was so much fun.