Latest / Women Who Ship / 11. Why 'Work Speaks for Itself' is a Trap for Women in Tech (Interview with Tanushree Panigrahy)
Transcript
- Sarah Williams: Welcome to Women Who Ship, the podcast for women in tech who are tired of proving themselves in rooms they've already earned a place in and are ready to lead like they know it. I'm your host, Sarah Williams. Let's dive in. Sarah: Hey friends, today I have a special episode for you. A little while ago, I had the pleasure of sitting down as a guest on Tanu Shri Panagrahi's podcast, Show What You Know. And if Tanu's name sounds familiar, it's because she was a guest right here on Women Who Ship for our two-part series on building your proof of work as insurance for your tech career. When we recorded that episode, Tanu and I realized that we were actually looking at two sides of the same coin. In our episode together, we talked about how to document and build evidence of what you can build. But on her show, she turned the mic around to me to talk about the second half of that equation, which is making sure that work actually gets seen. In this conversation, Tanu and I tear down one of the most dangerous myths high-performing women hold on to in tech: the belief that you just do great work quietly and the work will magically speak for itself. So grab your coffee, get comfortable, and let's dive into my conversation with Tanu Shri Panagrahi on Show What You Know. speaker-0: Most of my career I ran one simple belief. Do excellent work and the work will speak for itself. Twenty years across consulting, delivery, and strategy. And I held on that belief way too long, the whole way. Here's what I figured out. Work doesn't really speak for itself. People you work with do. And when I finally started showing my work In the last two years. It wasn't to build a brand or chase a title. I've mentioned this few times. It was so I could see clearly what I could build, what I would actually build. So today I wanted to speak someone who helps women in tech that shift on purpose, not by accident in 20 years like myself. My guest Sarah Williams, leadership coach and host of Women Who Ship. Welcome to the show. speaker-1: Thanks, Tanu. Yes, love your story. speaker-0: So so Sarah, you went from principal T PM to running your own coaching business. What made you decide women in tech really needed this kind of coaching? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's from my own 15 years in tech. I found that I was working with so many women who were doing great work. They were getting great performance evaluations. So it wasn't really like a confidence issue. They understood that they were doing well, but they were noticing like a gap between the recognition or the promotion that they were receiving. and you know how they were perceiving their own contributions. And it's you know mostly like a real systemic issue within the tech industry. I was reading stats just the other day that we're seeing less and less women representation in the higher levels of leadership, that it's much harder for women to make that transition from individual contributor to manager. So all of this does represent like real systemic issues that we experience in a male dominated field as well. speaker-0: Right. And then who do you work with and what's usually going on, you know, when they come to you? speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I work with women who are in that exact situation. They know they're doing great work. Like I said, it's not a confidence issue. They are just noticing that gap between the work that they're doing and the recognition and promotion that they're receiving. Right. speaker-0: Why do so many high achievers women believe believe this? Especially women like I said, why do they believe this? speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's common among high achievers overall, right? Because it's kind of the way we all grew up. You know, you go to school, you get gold stars when you do well. And especially for high achievers, we've spent our whole lives like that. You know, you you come in, you get the great grades, and you get recognized for it. But then for women especially, there's another layer of social programming that goes into place for this. So For women, we're kind of taught like, hey, don't brag. It's really important as a woman that you build that community, that you're sharing credit for the projects that you're completing, and that you're not making everything about yourself. So we're kind of trained by society to play small and to not really show up in that very visible way. And this is bad in the tech industry because it like the industry is built around. visibility, you have to be comfortable executing very publicly. All of that is what goes into those promotion decisions. That's what goes into recognition in the industry. And so we're kind of programmed as women by society to behave in a way that is exactly the opposite of what is required for you to keep advancing and and showing up publicly in tech. speaker-0: And so what usually shows them that is isn't true? Like, you know, what they have been doing before jumping into the tech career and now it suddenly is not true, like you mentioned, you know, the promotion season and layoffs, etc. speaker-1: Yeah. I'm actually gonna jump in with a story from my own career around this. I I worked for a while at Atlassian and about a year into my tenure, a manager role became available. And prior to coming to Atlassian, I had been a manager and I was kind of like, hey, I think I'd like to do this again. I'd like to take a stab at putting myself forward for it. And I did that. I went through the process. And again, I was kind of early in my tenure. They didn't get to see me in action publicly. And so I went through that whole process and I didn't get the role. But I did get some feedback, which was very kind of my leadership team. Hey, we just don't see you as strategic enough for this role. And when I sat with that feedback, I, you know, for a second as a woman, you kind of like think, my gosh, am I not? Am I actually not strategic enough? But that didn't feel true to me. I was like, no, I I can be strategic. I know how to do this. This is a skill I have. So this isn't a skill gap. The gap was in my leadership team seeing that in action. So that's when I said, like, hey, could you get me some assignments that one are more visible and two, have that. direct interaction with a senior leader. So not just my manager, but the skip level or above that can actually see me being strategic and witness it themselves. And so that's what makes all the difference. The next time a manager role came around, I was put forward for it and I was successful in getting it. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Tanu, have you ever found yourself Believing that the good work will just speak for itself. speaker-0: God, yes, throughout my career. I believed this most most part of my twenty years of tech experience. no, I spent twenty years in consulting, especially in my first fifteen years. I was so busy with all big programs, really high visible projects, consulting projects with really big clients, demanding ones too. challenging ones as well and and had to deliver no matter what, right? So I had been in leadership position, leading large programs, and somehow I believed that people above me, people under me, they see my hard work, they know what I'm putting into it and it will be visible. And like your story, sorry it's so much resembles my story as well. I was not applying for a promotion but it was a must-have promotion in two years I knew I will crush it but it didn't happen. It happened the third year when I had to go forward and say that I want it. And I remember my manager, she was a very nice manager I had. And he said, Tano, you never told me that you wanted the next role. I somehow believed that whatever I'm doing is kind of the testimony of my hard work and skills. It will automatically progress me through my career, but that didn't happen. And you also mentioned, Sarah, you know, like how we are socially conditioned as girls, as women. That you need to be you know, calm, you don't need to brag, etc. I have also seen people I have come across leadership where, you know, I've been told that you need to be humble when you say that you have the skill and you deserve this project or you need to participate in something because you have some skill. So it's a combination of both. You know, we've got great leaders who told me at the right time how I need to show my work. which is what has come into you know provision in last two years that I have been working on. And some leaders who would not appreciate you just working hard and not really showing or telling them what you want next. speaker-1: Yeah, I love that you added that layer because I think it's so common for women to also not ask for the thing. You think somebody's just gonna come by and and give it to you. Wouldn't that be great? speaker-0: you're working so hard. I mean it happens in our household as well, right? You put in all the effort to what the work that you do, to put things at the right place, to clean the house, to cook, to do everything else. but somehow you feel that it's visible and will be appreciated all the time and that's what you take it to work as well. speaker-1: Yeah, a hundred percent. speaker-0: yeah, so so Sarah, you say recognition starts with knowing your why. what do you mean by that? speaker-1: Well, I think that it's important for women to understand the reasoning and the drive behind that desire for recognition and behind that desire for promotion. And there's a couple of ways that I like to think about this. So, first is that there's sort of this like should promotion that women think that they need to go after. So this can happen. When you're sitting around and you're kind of looking at your peers and you're seeing that they're being advanced and you're not. Right. And you are doing that kind of comparison and thinking that you must be coming up short because of it. And a woman who decides to pursue promotion for this reason could end up setting herself up for failure in the actual role. Because the thing is that, you know, like for me, I knew I wanted to be a manager because I had done it before. And I liked the tasks that were involved and the skills that were part of being a manager. It's not for everyone. But if you sit back and say, okay, I need to get promoted to a manager because so-and-so did, and I want to be on the same, you know, playing field with these folks, then you're setting yourself up for, you know, a bad situation when you reach the next role. You have to make sure that when you're thinking about that next place. You're really thinking about what's involved with doing the work and that you'd actually be motivated and excited to do that work, not just because you feel like it's the next thing you should be doing. So that's the first one. The second one is the proof promotion. And I'm gonna admit, Tanu, I've fallen into this trap pretty badly in the past, where you're using the recognition, you're using the promotion. as a way to prove to yourself that you're good enough. And that is quite dangerous. You have to be able to feel confident in yourself for your own reasons. You can't be constantly seeking external validation, even through this recognition or promotion, because it's never really going to fill that void. That is coming from a source inside of you. And while external validation can fill it for a moment when you get the promotion or when you get the recognition that you think you deserve, but it will be so fleeting. So you have to kind of get get at the root reason behind that proof promotion before you can really confidently move into that next role. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: Yeah. Tanu, I know that from your story, you stopped seeking external validation. Can you talk a bit more about how that shifted for you? speaker-0: Definitely. My my my why turned into really internal because when I stopped doing that, I started looking from inside, like you said, you know, started doubting myself, my capabilities, and I started questioning myself. I started journaling as well and and then I understood it's not really lack of skill set and it's not also to your point what am I looking for? Asking that why. And I got the answer from inside, the why is not promotion. That is not what I'm looking for. And then I started learning more to what's going on in the market, which is really building up on what I already knew, building up on my existing skill set. And then I understood that I was not missing anything. That external credit, external validation was not even a gap. And then I started loving what I'm what I started doing, me recognizing myself rather than looking for somewhere outside. so I would love to ask you whether, you know, I mean that whole feeling of self-accomplishment still counts as recognition or whether it's something different. H how does knowing your why change what you choose to show? speaker-1: Yeah, I think it's all about that. You know, you when I'm working with women, that's what I want to tap into. I want to tap into that internal drive and that internal motivation because I think that is the most powerful recognition that you can get. And once you've gotten that, the external praise does come, but you're not so tied to it. You have the agency. To like you said, make the choice about the direction that you want your career to go from your own source of internal values. And once you're showing up that way, it's naturally going to lead to recognition from others, promotions if that's what you want to go for. But the change is that you have the agency there. It's your decision. You're doing it from a real sense of like. This is something I want, this is something I think I could achieve, or I think I could be good at, or something I love doing, I have a strong passion for. And so the importance for me is that the women that I work with are making that choice for themselves from the right motivation. speaker-0: Right. So walk us through a recognition retro. What does someone actually do? speaker-1: Right. So the reason behind this tool is that our brains are actually very good at scanning our environment for things that go wrong. And neuroscientists call this the negativity bias. So it's a leftover from primitive times where we were walking through the forest and something could jump out and, you know, attack us. And so our ancestors who prepared for that had much likely much more likely to survive and pass on their genes. So it is something that our brain is doing to protect us. But what we need to do is override that as women so that we can build our own internal sense of confidence. So basically, what this exercise is doing is training your brain to look for the good things that also happened during the week, not just focusing on the problem areas or the things that you need to fix, but also the things that went well, that you did well, and that. led to a positive contribution to your team. And so the what I suggest is just doing it, taking 30 minutes, setting aside some quiet time, really blocking it out on your calendar, kind of shutting down messaging apps, giving yourself that space to really sit there quietly. And then think of three to five things that you did during the week that were positive, that you're proud of. that made a good contribution to your team. And then think about not just what it is that you did, but what kind of impact that then had, either on your team or the business overall. So you're really thinking about how you're making an impact on the team as well. So it could look like something like I coached a direct report through a difficult conversation. And now that person has a set of tools that they could use going forward to handle a situation like that on. speaker-0: Yeah, no, beautiful. So how often should people do this? And then what do most people leave out? speaker-1: Yeah, I would suggest doing it about once a week. You know, it's frequent enough that you're doing the retraining of your brain and you're looking for the the times throughout the week, but it's not so frequent as to be taking up time every day. So you set aside that 30 minutes once a week and look for that. And what you may find is the thing that you're leaving out is your wins it all. The first time you sit down to do this, I know it was this way for me. I actually struggled to come up with the whole three things. So you may not get to three things right away. It might take some time before you can really remember and notice all of the great things that have happened throughout the week. And I know you're all about showing your work, Tanu. Can you say like what has surprised you about a process similar to this? speaker-0: Yeah, I mean I started my career as as a software engineer, but of course I took different tracks throughout my twenty years. and when I started documenting specially my bills and even sometimes not just bills, just my thought, thought leadership around certain topics, mostly technology and work related, the biggest surprise was how much I had forgotten doing. I loved writing. And I love building, which is solving problems for my customers, bringing those together was kind of something that surprised me. and I'm curious whether you see that with your clients as well, the women who come to you. Is is that something you take clients through? speaker-1: Well, yeah, I absolutely take my clients through this process to help them see the ways that they're contributing. But I do want to mention that I don't gatekeep this behind like working with me as a client. I believe that this is so important that I actually make a playbook to run through this on your own available for free. We can I can share the link to that later on. and I have you know, podcast episode about how to walk through this, why it's so important, just because it's it's something that really can be helpful for women. It shows up in so many different ways. So basically what you're building here is an evidence file of all of your wins. So when performance evaluation time comes around, when promotion time comes around, you already have the receipts. That you can pull together and share with your leadership team to help make an impact on your career, to help making sure that they are actually seeing as well the contributions that you're making. And it builds your self-trust along the way. And that's the most important thing. Like you said, you were looking for ways to recognize yourself and to have that internal drive to know what you're doing is making a difference. And that's what this process does. speaker-0: Right. So what's a recognition squad and who belongs in one? speaker-1: Yeah, a recognition squad consists of a mentor, a sponsor, and a coach. And I think that these three roles are all so powerful for women that are looking to advance their career. It is something that, you know, the research shows that women are typically over mentored and undersponsored. So there's definitely a gap, especially at entry level. between the women who are being sponsored and the men who are receiving sponsorship. And let me talk a little bit about why this is important. So a mentor is someone who talks to you. They should be maybe slightly ahead of you on their career path and they're going to tell you what you don't know. You know. You know, so if they're like the role ahead of you, you can ask that person, hey, what does this role actually look like? What's your day-to-day like? what's an important skill that I should be developing? Or maybe you notice someone in a meeting and you're like, wow, so-and-so always shows up and she seems so put together and she gives great updates. I'd like that skill. So you'd work with the mentor to develop a specific skill. Now with the sponsor, that is someone who talks about you. So Especially with performance conversations, sometimes you'll get lucky and your mentor is in those rooms and able to speak about the work that you're doing, but sometimes that's not the case. And so, and also with a sponsor, you can't actually go to them and ask them to sponsor you. So with a mentor, you can reach out to the person, you can make the ask. With a sponsor, you really need to get assigned to something that makes you visible. them. So that's where you know if you know they're a sponsor of a particular project, you want to try to help work on that project. If you know they're a sponsor of a particular goal, you want to try to get assigned to help out with that goal. So then those sponsors are seeing your work firsthand and able to speak about you in the rooms where those performance conversations happen, where those promotion conversations happen. Yeah. And then the coach is the person who can help you get the right mindset so they talk with you to help you build the right mindset tools to show up for these opportunities that are made available to you. So if you get the sponsor has opened a door for you, you want to make sure that you're showing up as your best self and that you have the right mindset tools in place to make that happen. So that's what I would consider the squad. speaker-0: Sounds like a a like a dream set of people that every woman needs. Yeah. speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-0: So what counts as low stakes rep? Give us a few examples or an example someone could try tomorrow if they are listening to speaker-1: Yes. So if you've done your recognition retro, then you should have an example of something that you've done that you're proud of and that provided impact. So I actually think it would be great, low stakes, to practice sharing that with your manager while in a one on one. So it's a very quiet setting. It's just you and your manager. And it, you know, try to think of something that maybe your manager doesn't. wasn't present for, possibly doesn't know that you did because they didn't have a front row seat to it. And then just practice. And the formula you can use, which you should already have from following the recognition retro, is I did this action and it resulted in this impact. And that gives you a chance to provide practice doing this in a very low stakes environment. And if your manager even seems like too much pressure, Just ask a colleague that you have a close relationship, ask a friend, maybe your partner. Just practice saying it out loud so you can start getting comfortable speaking about your wins to others. speaker-0: So how do you talk about your wins without it feeling like you're bragging? And I get into this feeling this confusion many times, you know, where to draw the line. speaker-1: Yeah. the sad news is it's probably gonna feel like really awkward at first, you know, because you haven't done this before. We talked about the ways that women are socialized against this type of behavior. So anytime you're learning something new, anytime you're doing something for the first time, it doesn't feel great. It's new, it's awkward, it's not gonna like go perfectly every time. And so I would just say like you're gonna probably be ready to feel like it's a bit awkward at first. But I would ask women to kind of lean on how you would talk about a friend or a colleague. Many women I know are very good at recognizing others, at talking about others and sharing the impact of the whole team in a way that doesn't seem braggy, in a way that does seem like it's building everyone up. And so if you have that skill to apply to others, I'm just asking you to use that skill for yourself. So speaker-0: So if someone does one thing after listening to this, what should it be? speaker-1: Do the recognition retro. I think that's the most powerful tool that every woman should have in her tool set. It's so powerful for so many different ways. I was listening to someone who was talking about negotiation. So when you need to walk in and ask for a raise raise or ask for something from your team, ask for a different work and work schedule, something like that. If you already know, you need to come into that. Conversation with a sense of confidence in your abilities and in your strengths because you want to come from like that place of power. If you're walking in thinking I'm not good enough, I don't haven't done anything to contribute to the team that makes this worthwhile, your negotiation isn't going to go that well. But if you've got this long list of evidence that you've been building up over time. that you've gotten comfortable talking about to others, you're going to be in that solid position to be able to negotiate for what you want, to be able to speak about the ways that you're making a difference to the company and to your team as well. speaker-0: What does the first week look like when somebody gets started? Like someone starting from zero, let's say? speaker-1: The first week might be kind of hard. You might sit down, you've set aside your 30 minutes, you blocked out your calendar, you get quiet, and you're like, I can't think of a single thing I did. Yeah. And and that's okay. Like just what I would ask if you sit down and you go, my gosh, what am I even doing here? I don't know what what I did that was of value this week. Make your brain, ask your brain to look for things. And it will get easier over time. So the more, be sure you continue to show up for yourself. Block out that time. I like to do it on a Friday afternoon and show up for it every week. Continue to ask yourself, hey, what did I do that made an impact this week? How did I provide value? And again, I want to mention it doesn't always have to be a big delivery. It can be just something that you unblocked for the team or something that you did for someone else as well. So keep showing up. Keep practicing and asking yourself to look for those things and you'll find that it becomes easier over time. speaker-0: Something definitely I need to try. And then and I feel like this is not just for recognition but in general, outside of this hustle and your mind constantly busy. I think that quiet time definitely would help and I'm gonna try that personally. So where can people find you, Sarah? And what what's the best way to work with you? speaker-1: Yes, you can find me on my website. It's coachsarahwilliams.com. I'm also on LinkedIn and Instagram, same thing, Coach Sarah Williams. So happy to connect with people in that way. And then I also want to mention that I have the podcast, which you talked about at the beginning, Women Who Ship. And Tanu, that's actually how we met. So I'd love for folks to listen to the episodes there with you. speaker-0: It it really was. So being on womanhoodship is how this video conversation actually started. So for anyone listening who hasn't heard that episode, go find it. Sarah and I talked about building proof of work, the things you actually make that show what you can do. And this episode is really the other half. Making sure the work gets seen, listen to them together. They really are two parts of the same idea. So Sarah, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. You gave us more than ideas today. Something really personally I will start working on. You gave people something to start with this week. So that's wonderful. Whether that's recognition retro or one small rep of you know talking about a win. That's exactly what I hoped my listeners would leave with. And I have loved watching what you're building, you're doing for other women and what you are teaching them to do, putting your work out there and owning it. I'm cheering you on and I can't wait to see where womenhoodship and your coaching go next. So to everyone listening, Sarah's link are in the show notes, her website, LinkedIn. podcast links will be down below, so go connect with her. Thanks for being here. So this has been Show What You Know. Keep building and Keep Showing What You Know. Sarah: If you've been listening to this episode and nodding along, you might be asking yourself, how do I actually take the amazing work I'm already shipping and make it visible to the sponsors and leaders who influence my career? Because here is the hard truth for senior women in tech. Quiet high performance is not a career plan. Too often we hold entire projects together with invisible glue work, doing the heavy operational lifting, stabilizing the team after re-orgs, and writing the documentation. But we do it in silence, waiting for a gold star that is never going to be handed to us. If you are ready to break that cycle, I want you to download my free Get Recognized at Work playbook. It is a practical five-step system designed to help you stop waiting for external praise, build an unshakable private evidence file of your own wins, and start talking about your impact with calm, unapologetic confidence. Inside you'll find my exact template to turn your day-to-day tasks into high impact metrics using my formula, How to build a weekly recognition retro ritual that retrains your brain to notice your own value. And a step-by-step roadmap to map your own visibility circle so you can share your work with skip levels and key partners without feeling like you're bragging. You don't need to be louder, flashier, or someone you're not. You just need a system to make your results impossible to overlook. Visit Go. dot coachsarahwilliams.com forward slash recognition right now to download your copy. Let's stop doing the invisible work and start getting recognized for the results you actually create.