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How to Thrive as a Working Mum · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Today I am chatting with Georgie Wicken, who is the head of people, the chief people officer at Ball Reinsurance, who have been one of our clients for the past couple of years.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: We've worked quite heavily with them and Georgie is doing amazing things within the insurance sector to improve D&I.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Georgie, as well, is somebody that I used to work with back when I worked at Deloitte.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: She was someone that always seemed to have everything together, so I'm really keen to get her perspective on working parenthood.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: She's got four children.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Like I said, she is the Chief People Officer at Paul Ray, obviously a really senior role, one that she does part time, which you know is fairly unusual as you get more senior.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, georgie, for joining me.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me no, thank you.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I think that's actually my first question, because a lot of it obviously get messages from people all the time that want part-time roles and you are working part-time at you know, a very, very senior level.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: How did you get that role part-time?
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: I know and I feel so grateful, and I'm grateful on many levels, partly because I love the role in the company and I'm passionate about what we do as a company and the people, but also for part-time.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: So, as you say, there are so few part-time roles out there, and when I made the decision to leave my last role, which I was lucky to have compressed, so I was five and four, which is the dream for any person trying to to work part-time.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: That's a great way of doing it.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: But this role was advertised part-time.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I saw it on LinkedIn, um, and at a similar time, a couple of other people reached out to me and said, oh, my goodness, have you seen this job?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: It's going to suit you perfectly, um.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it was just a very lucky part-time advertised role on LinkedIn.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: And when I spoke to the um recruiter I contacted her she said, oh, I've had almost 300 applications this one job and I just thought, well, I'm never going to get.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: You know, I'll just never get that there's 300.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: It's that kind of realization that there are so many women, especially in HR, but you know, in all careers that are desperate for that part-time opportunity.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, went through the process and got there, which is great, and I'm not going to say it's easy doing it part-time, because it's not, because it's a big role and it's um, and it's something I'm passionate about, so I want to do it as well as possible, but I also, you know, my youngest is still only three, and that's it's important for me to be around and not be working every single day and have that flexibility to have a day off with her and, um, yeah, and be present while they're little, because because that doesn't learn, you know, it doesn't last last for long enough.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it worked out for me, but, as I say, I feel very grateful.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: But it's also something I'm really passionate about for other people, and flexibility in the workplace shouldn't be something that you should be begging for or should be grateful for.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: It should become the norm.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: You know that's something I would.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: I would love to see other people get the opportunity to stay in their careers and progress to a senior position, but still have that flexibility to work part-time yeah, so actually that I'm really interested to know.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: So you know they were obviously Paul Ray, because you've advertised roles with us in the past at part-time are bought into part-time.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: What is you know, if any of your employers are listening to this you know?
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: What benefits have you seen for employing people part-time and why do you think you know your CEO is so bought into?
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's as I say.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: For me it's um, through my own personal journey of having had children.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: My oldest is now 14 and the youngest is three.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: So over that period I've needed and wanted to work part-time and work flexibly.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: So I've seen that it can work.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: I give my absolute all to my jobs and I'm really passionate and I'm kind of perfectionist.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: So I love doing what I do and I do want to do it to the best I possibly can.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean working every single hour and being present five days and in the office five days a week.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: That's not what I've been able to do or wanted to do since I've had my children.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: So I think by ruling that out, you're ruling a huge amount of the workforce out.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: There's absolutely nothing wrong with my output or my ability, but I don't want to be in the office five days or can't be.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: So I think it's really important to have an open mind to say how can we allow flexibility?
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Because as soon as you do, you will open up a whole extra, you know area of the workforce male and female that have the ability but just don't want to or can't for whatever reason, and there's, you know, a plethora of reasons.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Work full-time, um, and it definitely does work, and I think you know you get a different sorts of candidates through.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: There's not all roles and not all companies can cope with it.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: But actually thinking outside the box as to how to make that work, yeah, it's small adjustments and you know the majority of roles can be done with a little bit of extra thought absolutely so.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: You work four days at the moment.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Are you quite strict not checking your emails on that fifth day, or do you find that it sort of seeps in a little bit?
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: yeah, I'd love to say I am super strict.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Um, that's not the case and that's not the reality.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: And, as you said, it's a it's a senior role and I'm on the executive committee and um attend boards and everything else.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: So that's not reality.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: And also, being in HR, there's people that you're supporting and people that are having needs that you need to be around for.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: But the difference is I'm not in the office, I'm not logged on, I don't accept meetings.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Um, my day sometimes swaps, so it's not a set day off.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: It can have a majority years, but occasionally something comes in that you know that that needs to happen.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: But I will make sure there is one day a week that I'm definitely not working.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: But when I'm not working, I'm, you know, I'm with, I'm with the kids and I'm being a mum and I'm doing normal kind of mum type activities.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: So, yep, I'll have my work, my ball, at the bottom of bottom of my handbag and it will be there and I'll occasionally check it.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: But, as I say, I'm present with the family.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not working all of those hours.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: That's good.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: So you I know that we've worked with you um, obviously quite a few roles and you've um got something with blind CVs where you, um, we have to anonymize the CVs that we submit to you, so they there's no reference to, I guess, anyone's gender ethnicity.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: What was the sort of reasoning behind that and what are you hoping to achieve with your D&I objectives?
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: So with Paul Rea, I think we're lucky that I don't think we've we're small enough that we're below our kind of all needs for quotas and everything else and we don't have any particular issues and I say issues very much with kind of inverted commas because I don't think lots of companies would necessarily feel they have issues.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Um, but we did need a nice survey or a ram one when I joined and it had kind of very positive results.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean you can ever sit back on your laurels and kind of accept these things and I think, although at PORI I think we don't, as I say, I don't think there's a problem in the insurance market in general.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: It's a very close-knit, tight community and it's very much kind of where you've worked or who you know, in a lot of roles not all roles and I hope things will move and they definitely have progressed in the time I've been in the sector, but there's still a way to go.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: But this at least gives everyone an even playing field.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: You're not looking at thinking I've got to have x, you know, whatever that may be, whether that is, you say, is gender, is ethnicity, is age, is something.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: So anonymizing the CV just I feel is the fairest way for a candidate to have the the best opportunity of getting in from their skill sets and kind of writing the skills that are needed on their CV, or the skills they have on the CV, rather than being blinded by anything else, by kind of where they live or what their hobbies or interests are or, as I say, gender, ethnicity, anything else.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: So it just feels like you're allowing more of an even fair playing field.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Um, I had an example a while ago not in my current role, but actually a previous company where I'd introduced um, the the same setup and we had applications through for a graduate assessment day and we whittled it down through anonymized CVs, but initially they had various online assessments that they had to do.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Then it got through to the kind of the third stage, which was to invite them in for face-to-face assessment center, and they'd all been anonymized through the whole system, through the whole kind of process.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: So no one knew who was going to turn up.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: You know what, as I say, what gender, what ethnicity, anything about their background and the hiring manager walked into the boardroom and then stormed straight out and called me out and he was like what is going on?
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: There's only one female in that room and nine males, and I said, well, that's the process we've gone through.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: We didn't know, you know.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Know, no one knew this is the fairest way, but I think in you know, in his mind, he wanted it.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: He thought fair meant 50 50, but actually, through the online assessments, through the applications, um, you know the process, that's where we landed.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: So, but at least it was fair.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: They were all, they were all being assessed on a level playing field and actually that that was fair, that was.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: You know they'd gone through a fair and true and honest process and that's what where we landed.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Um, so it doesn't mean you're kind of consciously making a bias towards any individual, it's just a fair process that's really.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Have you noticed I mean, obviously that was sort of one extreme have you noticed generally that the D&I has improved since introducing blind CVs?
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Have you noticed there's been a fairer representation of the people that have been hired?
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: yeah, as I say at paury, I don't think that's ever, or in my tenure, that hasn't been an issue.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: So I'm not sure there's a direct improvement, because I don't think there was a problem or kind of a negative um, but, as I say, it just feels like we're doing the right thing and should continue to.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I think in other organisations.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think you know there's lots of things you can do from an ED&I perspective and there's lots of things from a recruitment perspective, but this is one of the toolkits.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: I think this is one element that you should be looking at.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, is there anything else you've tried?
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Other bits and pieces, I think using a variety of agencies, which is obviously how we came to you.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I think, especially in the insurance, there's kind of a couple of key players that people know the name and know the brand and they go to repeat business.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: But you know you're them fishing in a very small pool and you're expecting the same candidates to be kind of passed around from pillar to post, which is no bad thing.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: They're great candidates and, yeah, I've been in that pool, so there's nothing negative about that.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: But reaching out to different, different agencies with different angles, you know yours being one.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: There's, um, others with different kind of race selections and a variety of things, but but that will add to the pool of candidates that you're getting through the door, um, and also when you're looking at direct hiring as well, where, where you're advertising and how you're going.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: You're looking at direct hiring as well, where you're where you're advertising and how you're going to reach out to different demographics as well.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: And and also the.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: The bit that I'm really passionate at the moment actually is working and mentoring young people.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: They don't know about different careers, not just insurance as a sector, but the different, the back office and the support functions that are in a company and I'm finding it fascinating, trying to support these young people, that they know the obvious jobs.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: You know that I was sitting with one this week and she said well, I know what a doctor does and I know what a nurse does and I, my dad, works 90.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: But when I talked about HR she'd never heard of it and I hadn't heard of it at her age either.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: You know, you don't know what marketing does you don't know about.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: You know so many of these support functions and actually that's the grassroots level that we need to be kind of talking to young people about careers and industries and how they can get into different things and opening their eyes to opportunities that are out there absolutely.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: I wonder what you think.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: I remember when we were at Deloitte together, um, and it was obviously there was a focus as well on D&I, particularly in tech um, because there wasn't a huge number of women um were applying for roles in tech and we used to try and get like women, even if it was a woman in another team, to be involved in the interview process.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Um, and I don't know if you've seen, like Salesforce, a tying exec compensation to commitment and actually doing something of D&I within their team.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: I wonder what your thoughts are.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's no bad thing.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I'm in two minds.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: I feel putting false quotas on these things are never the best way of going about things.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: But also, you do need a.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: You know you do need a woman at the table.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Everyone's got different views and opinions and sees things differently and everyone will have a different lens on it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: That's not to say you know a man and a woman would have different views, but it's, it's good to have that variety, I think from a selection panel.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: I think it is really, again, you know, part of the toolkit.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: It's a good thing to do.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: It's it's the right thing to do.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Where possible.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Most companies can allow or should allow to make sure that interview processes aren't purely dominated by one particular gender or ethnicity or role.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Even I think it's really important to get people from different departments to interview to again to see a different lens.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess my slight hesitation is the kind of the false quotas or doing things for the sake of it.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Put a book, put a woman at the, the interview table or selection.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: If they're good at what they're doing and if they can give, you know, decent feedback and if they can give kind of critical analysis on why the interview was good or bad.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Don't put them there just because they're female.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: If they, if they don't understand about interviewing or they don't understand about you know, whatever it is that the selection is yeah don't use them, but use them because they're good at their job and they're going to be able to give you variety, um, and different opinions and a different voice.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: So so, yeah, I think the I think the majority of companies, hopefully are doing it for the right reasons.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: But I think certain quotas or kind of targets on things can sometimes kind of slightly backfire use use it for the right reasons and use it wisely and get the right skill set yeah, absolutely so, before we hit record.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: I know you've got four children and they are spanning age from 14 to 3, and we hit record and you said that when your eldest, I guess, was a baby, you, you and this really surprised me because you, we used to work together and you were so well put together.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: You spent one day crying in the toilet because you were going to miss bedtime, and now you're a lot more confident.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: You were just, I mean talk me through that.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: You know what's that journey been like.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I guess to become a more confident mum only been, like, I guess, to become a more confident mum.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Um, it's crazy looking back on it actually now, firstly thinking he's 14, but also the difference I am as a mum now.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Um, my life was, you know, I was younger then.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: I was a younger mum.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: I was a younger person.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: I was more naive or kind of less less experienced in my career, but I'd work for a long time for um one agency and I was made redundant when I was pregnant, um, which was tricky, um, and yeah, that's like pregnant then screwed, isn't it?
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: that's proper, yeah it was.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: It was pretty awful and I was like six weeks or seven weeks or something, so it's super early.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: So I still had the rest of my maternity leave to go and find work, or you know, did you manage to find something then?
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I did.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: I ended up temping locally for an agency that I went in to say, have you got any work?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: And they said, actually, do you want to come and work for us?
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: So I worked there so it did work out.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it was a tricky time, your confidence was probably I'm assuming knocked.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: It was really knocked.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: And then after my I ended up actually going back to the agency.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: They reset up, but outside of the city, and I worked part-time for them and then, when I was on maternity leave the second time, they relocated and they said do you want to come with us?
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: And they were moving out to just just miles from me.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: It wasn't logistically possible and I then made the decision to move in-house and I kind of stopped.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And it was the first time I kind of properly stopped and thought about my career because I'd very much fallen into recruitment.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: After uni I did a music degree and went into an agency to talk about a job in a ballet company.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: They said, actually, do you want to come and work for us?
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: And I said I don't know what recruitment is and they were financial services recruitment.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Ballet was a very kind of left field thing for them.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: So anyway, I just kind of fallen into it all and then I stopped and thought actually I've got a family now being agency side where it is, really, um, you know, you need to put in the hours, you need to put in lots of crazy hours beyond the phones doing the calls, and I thought this isn't what I want, and this isn't going to work for me with two young boys.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: So moving in-house was it was the right decision.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Um, and one of my clients that I've been recruiting for for years and years and years heard I was being made redundant and said would you like to come and work in?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: You know, would you like to come and work for me and we can make it work and we can do part-time and you can do.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: You can, you can have the flexibility financially.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: It was absolutely crippling going from being a kind of director of a recruitment consultancy to a part-time in-house role, but I knew long term it was a stepping block.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I had to take that drop to then build back up and it was the best thing I ever did.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I learned a huge amount, but I made that decision to contract, so I did a year there and then I did a couple of other contracts, um, one of them being Delight, obviously, where we met and that was just so.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Um, as I said before, I'm a complete perfectionist and I know it's one of you know it's a.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: It's a joy, but it's also a weakness and a difficulty, because I do want to do everything to the best of I possibly can and delight was a fast-paced, busy, busy environment and there wasn't the option to go home.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: It was a you know you will stay there till you get it all done and there's lots of kpis and targets and and you know data and numbers to hit.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: And there was one time where, um, yeah, harry was tiny, um, he was, he was little, and I'd always put them to bed or unless, unless there had been, you know, I was going out or you know there was the majority of times, but this was a work.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: This was the first time, from a work perspective, where I wasn't going to get home to put him to bed and and I remember kind of saying, oh, um, you know, I don't, actually, to be honest, I don't think I even said anything.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I think inside I felt I should say something but I couldn't and I realized everyone else was working late and that was just the done thing and there was no option and the managers were just kind of flying around, you know, shouting about how much more we needed to do and call and complete and sign off, all these kind of things, and I just went into the loo and I just thought I'm not putting, I'm not putting my baby to bed tonight.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: This isn't you know, this isn't right.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: This isn't what I want.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: What am I doing with my life?
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: And although it's amazing and it's, it's great experience and I'm learning loads from being here there's more to life.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: And so it was the next week.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: They said will you extend your contract?
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: We definitely want to make you perm.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: You've got to stay.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: And I went absolutely not.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: And they were going oh, is it the money?
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Well, you know we'll increase your salary.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And I said it's not the money, it's not about that.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: This isn't the balance.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: This isn't working for me.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Um, and yeah, I think they were really shocked.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: They were saying but you know you're doing a great job and you know it's working out really well, why?
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you want to stay?
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: You know, this is Deloitte and it wasn't about Deloitte and it wasn't about the role.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: It was all of that.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: It was just so much more than my life's, more than this, and I'm not missing, I don't want to miss these things.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And that was when I kind of said no, actually this isn't for me.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: And yeah, moved on, kind of finished that contract I didn't leave early Finished the contract and then moved on to the next one and then moved on to the next one.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: But since then, bit by bit, I think it's having the confidence to speak up and say when you can and can't do things.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: And you know my youngest now I'm kind of 10 years old, so, as I say, he's, he's now 14, but doing it now the second time around and essentially with the little ones, and being that much more mature and having the confidence to speak up.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: There are definitely, you know, I don't put her to bed every night and there's definitely events and things I have to go to, but they're things that I've chosen to go to.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: They're not just working late for the sake of working late or it's not a regular.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: It'll be very much a kind of a one-off and I'll make those decisions and if there's times I need to be at home, for whatever reasons you know I don't know a nativity play or a parents evening or a sports match I will be saying I'm not working, then you know I'll catch up and I'm never behind and I don't want to miss deadlines and I'll never let anyone down, but they'll be on my terms and they'll be for me to decide how and when.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: I prioritize that and and I love everyone and I hope you know, for younger people going through it and having their first babies.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: They have the confidence to do that, because I think it's very rare or I'd hope it's rare if you've got a decent manager that they turn around and go no, that's not okay.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: You are, you know.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: We want you to miss that event with your family to work you know, I really hope.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I really really hope for everyone's sake that there are managers out there and maybe there wouldn't have been back then, but I just didn't have the confidence to ask um yeah, I do remember, though the year where we were there wasn't, I didn't feel like there was a lot of parents no, I think I was.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you were probably before I had children.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you were in the minority, particularly on our team, and I think and I feel really ashamed of saying this but until you have children it's actually really hard, I think, to grasp it and the how much your life and priorities change.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: And I remember this is actually before Deloitte but, um, when I was at Hayes and there was the lady there that worked part-time and she'd leave and we'd all have to work really late, um, you know, in agency, and she'd leave bang on five or whatever, and I would be like, oh, actually quite jealous of her not really realizing that she then had basically a second shift to do.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: It was probably hard, much harder than the shift that she was doing in the day, but I think until you, it's very hard to grasp that.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: And um, yeah, and how difficult actually it's been at mum, I mean, obviously it's joyful, but there's that.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: It's so difficult, yeah, and even the morning juggle.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: You know, when you get to your desk, at whatever time you get there, what you've done to complete your drop-offs, get-ups, wake-ups you know lunchboxes, pe kits, as well as your commute, before you even get to the desk is a mini miracle that you're there and, as you say, kind of put together and then get your head space in the in the correct place to be able to work and and launch your day, um, as well as in the back of your mind, also thinking about them and what they've got going on that day and, yeah, but trying to keep your focus on work and then get back and do it all again in reverse.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: so yeah, absolutely.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: I think you said something that's all really interesting because I know that you moved.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: You took a salary drop to move in-house and a lot of people listening to this may want to have a career pivot and actually it's quite nice to hear that.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: You know it's okay, you know it's probably just temporary and sometimes you have to take a step back, to take a few steps forward yeah, and I think it was really scary for me to do that.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Um, and also, which is?
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: You know, so many people are in this boat and it's talked about a lot, but the child care costs, especially for young children, in this country is so astronomical that it's at that age where they're in nursery, that's the most expensive age and at least when they start school you you might be paying for wraparound, for breakfast club and after school club, but that's nothing compared to the nursery costs.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: And and it was at that age group.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it was.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: It was hideous and from a financial perspective it was really hideous and also from a confidence perspective.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: You're used to earning, you know, nice money and the things that come attached with that from um, yeah, and then that's kind of gone.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: So you, your, you know your life does change.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: But, as I said, I knew this was the right decision for me and part of the reason I wanted to contract for a few years was to keep stepping upwards, and that's stepping upwards with regards to salary, but also stepping up with regards to experience.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And I was really conscious that moving in-house at a later point in my career, it wasn't as if I'd kind of started my career.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I had already done, I don't know, 10 years or so um agency side.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: So I was already conscious that I was kind of on a back foot.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: And if I just sat in one company for three, four or five years, that would be my one experience, my one kind of label on my CV, whereas I thought, right, if I take the next um three contracts, two of them, I think, for a year and one for six months but that will build me three jobs worth of experience to be able to talk about, to learn from different systems, to be using different people, to be interacting different environments as well.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: That's a quick way to expedite experience from my CV as well as my skill set.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: So I kind of worked purposefully in different sectors, different size organizations and slightly different roles so that when I then went permanent I would have different ideas, different views, looked at things differently, rather than have just sat in one company.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think I think for people looking to take that pivot it is scary, but sometimes you've got to take that leap of faith and kind of be confident in your own plan and think about planning and contract because you've been quite strategic.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: It sounds like yeah.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: I definitely was and I made that decision that this is where I want to get to.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: But to get in the time frame that I want, I'm going to have to make that decision to push myself, throw myself into contracts.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I've never contracted before and it's quite scary because you're putting yourself out there and you're starting new jobs, which is always, you know, overcoming that fear of am I going to be good enough and are people going to like me and what's it all going to be like there in this new setup.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: So, but, as I say, contracting was a really good way of building up a skill set quickly, because you're thrown in the deep end and you're looking at new systems, new people, new roles.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: If you're doing recruitment, new HR teams, it's a really good way of throwing yourself in quickly and learning.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: You're obviously really ambitious and you know you've really planned your career and you've got you know, I'm guessing to where you wanted to get to.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: You know, particularly at this point in your career.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: And you've got um.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: You know I'm guessing to where you want, um wanted to get to.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: You know, particularly at this point in your career, where do you see yourself going now?
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Where would you, you know, love to end up in your career?
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: it's really interesting.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: I started a coaching journey last year, um and my I think I've been pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing for so long since being more redundant yeah.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I really thought I don't want to be in that situation again and I don't want to be in a kind of position where I'm not in control of my career and my certainty, which I know, um, yeah, it's a little bit kind of over controlling, but I think being made redundant can really throw you, especially if it's a difficult time, like being pregnant and being pregnant the first time where I thought I've made this decision to be, you know, to have a family, and now I don't know what I'm going to do.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm in a really bad, scary state here.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: So so, yeah, I do like, I do like to plan, um, and it was really interesting because I've been pushing, pushing, pushing, as I say, all that time to kind of build up the career and get to where I am.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And now, you know, here I am, I've got the CPA role, which is amazing and I love it, and I'm really kind of passionate about people and culture and supporting people in the workplace, so it's excellent.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: But then, as you say, now what?
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: And so when I started coaching, it was a oh gosh, I'm here, yeah, and have I enjoyed the journey?
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Everyone kind of says, you know, enjoy the journey.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: And I was thinking gosh, okay, right, I'm here, and now what?
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: And?
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: actually yeah, because you've like done the jet.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: It feels like you know you've got so senior, you know within.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Polari yeah look around and you must think oh but it's also really interesting because I've joined various kind of CPO I don't know seminars and symposiums and breakfast, you know round tables and things and talking about other people's roles.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I was thinking, right, okay, you know, strategically, how long will I be here and what's the next move?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: And am I going to move to a larger firm or is it still going to be with insurance or will I move back to, I don't know, private equity or consulting, or where am I going to be?
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: What am I going to do?
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And actually, for the first time ever and it's definitely kind of coaching that's led me to this I can just stop and be present and enjoy what I'm doing, because I do love it.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: You know I love I've got I've got a great balance, I've got a great family, I love the role.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I really love the company and the people I'm supporting.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: So actually enjoy it for what it is, rather than be kind of obsessively looking at the next step or where I need to go or what I need to do.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Um, and also, I think when you get to these bigger roles, the elements that you particularly love are still there and that's great and I love the kind of the coaching and the L&D and the support and the culture and the ED&I and all those kind of bits that I'm passionate about.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: But there's other elements of HR that I'm now having to do and head up and manage which aren't my interest.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: You know, the kind of the legal, the contracts, the benefits, the payroll, all of those bits are.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: They're just not the side that I'm passionate about.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: But obviously you know I'm still heading them up, heading the function.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of having to work out for your next position or for the for the future.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Do you want to stay at this level and look after everything or do you actually potentially want to specialize again and go and kind of home in one particular area, and that would also be okay.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: For me it was that kind of journey of push, push, push and now it might not be um, and even coaching.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by the coaching journey.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Um, just started my NLP qualification.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: You know that's potentially an avenue that I go down.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: You know who knows.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: But as I say, it's for the first time.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of okay by just taking a, drawing a breath and saying the journey's been amazing and you know it's great, but but I'm loving what I'm doing for now and and that's okay for a little bit- what prompted you to get a coach?
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: The change.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: It was a step up.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: So, being on the executive committee, I realized I hadn't I'd obviously kind of presented to them in the past, but I hadn't been on the exec and and imposter syndrome really kicked in and I was thinking, oh my god, I don't know if I can do this.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Um, and interestingly, when I was interviewing for the role they hadn't actually decided if it was on the ex-co or not.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: But I was so delighted that it was a four-day-a-week, you know, cpo role.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I didn't really care.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: I was like it's not really important for me, it's four days.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: That ticks that box.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Company's great people have met.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: So you know, seem.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: So you know, go for it.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't until I joined that they said, oh, um, you know, we've put all the exec meetings in your diary.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: And I said, okay, am I presenting for the first couple of weeks?
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Then, you know, am I getting to know people?
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: And they went.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: They kind of all looked really blankly and they were like you're on the exec and I was like right, no one's ever told me that.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: And then they said, oh well, you are this position, we've decided that the position is because, uh, there wasn't a position before me, the role didn't exist, um, and I kind of again had that moment where I was going oh my god, oh my god, can I do this?
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I don't think I can, I don't know if I can, and it was a real kind of imposter syndrome of I don't have an option.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I'm here in the office, just, you know, keep face, keep keep face, keep calm, just smile and carry on.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: And then I just thought, actually this is a big step up.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: There's no point in me freaking out silently.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I can get a coach to support me through this.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Is that something you get through, paul Rea, or did you find the person?
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I found him myself.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I'd been recommended him.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I'd already heard about him and the the company kindly sponsor, sponsor me through that, um, but coaching is something I'm so passionate about and I really encourage everyone at Paul Rea.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say do you, if someone's listened to this, do you think?
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Do you think everyone should have a coach?
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I really do, and it's something I'm so passionate about, and we at Paul Rea do encourage everyone, everyone that wants to, so that the only kind of caveat I'd say is I will talk to anyone about coaching for as long as they're, you know, willing to listen to my boring stories.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: But I think it's absolutely amazing the stuff you learn about yourself, your past, your future.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: I find the whole journey fascinating, but you have to be wanting to do it and willing to do it, and coaching isn't always at the right time, um, I had coaching years and years and years ago and it was when I was going through a divorce, um, and work was tricky, but home was tricky and I was going through the motions and I was turning up for the sessions and she was an amazing coach and we're still very, very good friends now.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: It just wasn't the right time in my life.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: There was too much other things going on, I didn't have the headspace to really think about me and my life, career.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: It was very much more kind of crisis mode, um, so it wasn't the right time for me, whereas now I'm in a much calmer place, I'm getting so much out of it and and I think how often do you meet?
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: we meet probably once every four to five weeks, depending on diaries.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, it's amazing, it's a mix of in person and online, because he's based nowhere near london, um, so we occasionally we kind of mix it up, but online's working amazingly.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Um, we've done timeline therapy, we're doing bits of nlp, so we're doing amazing things together and it's just fascinating.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: But but, as I say, with the staff, poor e, I'm really encouraging everyone that even has a snippet of inclination.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of on it saying right, you know, let me support you through this journey and let's you know, let me sign you up and, you know, have a few sessions and if you don't, if it's not for you, then that's fine and sure enough, no one's ever turned up and said I don't want to carry on, or you know, it's normally the opposite.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Can you extend me?
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Can I have more sessions?
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Can we get more?
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: that's really good and you pay for that.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: The pool repays for that then yeah people yeah that's just the use it's people's development is.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: You know, that's the bit of.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: One of my favorite bits about hr is seeing people develop personally and professionally, and I think jobs or companies and cpos and hr functions in my eyes, have a real responsibility to help people grow and develop.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: You come to work and you do a good job.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: You're doing a good job because you're passionate about what you do and and you are more than just your job.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: You're, you know, you are a whole person and a human and you've got your life and you know, not just family, obviously this is kind of the mom element of it, but so much more than just work.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: And if we can be growing and developing and learning all the time, that's going to be amazing for the company, you know, for you, but, but you are part of the company, you're an extension of that.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: So I think you have to be developing and growing.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Um, and I've always kind of I've never wanted to get stagnant in a role or at any point in my life.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: I definitely kind of want to want to keep pushing and, as I say, at the moment I'm in this weird kind of calm space, which is very unusual for me, but it's because I'm still learning so much.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: As you know, every day there's new elements of my role and there's new um parts that I'm learning about myself.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: When that slows up or dries up, then I'll be like, right, okay, time to move on.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: What am I going?
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: But at the moment I'm still in a huge kind of learning curve.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in that learning curve, which is great and I love that, and I think seeing people struggle at points in their life and points in career which you know, sadly, in HR you do see lots of that but that's when something's not working and it's not going to work for them at home and outside of work and it's not working for them inside of work and supporting them into what can be helping them to get, get the best for them, to make them happy again.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: If you're happy, you're going to be doing, you know, good job and that's going to benefit everyone.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: But works.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: You know work is a massive part of our lives and it's so important, but it's only an element.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: You know we are still.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: We are still mums, we're still wives, we're still partners, we've still got our hobbies, our interests, our families and friends and that's so important and work should be.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: You know, I'd hope people enjoy work, and I'm really passionate about enjoying work.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: I would never want to leave my kids to do a job that I wasn't enjoying, because I also don't think I'd do a very good job at it.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, so good job at it, you know, yeah.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: So it's a kind of a you know, a cycle of do something you're passionate about, enjoy it and you'll do it really really well, and then you'll feel grateful to come home and do your other job of being a mum or, you know, doing hobbies or doing whatever it is you do.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: But um, yeah, um.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: So before we wrap up, you mentioned that you went through a divorce, and I know that you are now a blended family.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Have you got any tips for anybody else that you know is finding themselves part of a blended family?
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: yeah, it's, it's a juggle.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Again like being a mum is a juggle.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: It adds to that complexity of different kids in different places at different times and having to be super organized about schedules and homework and football boots and kits in different places and different pickups and drop-ups.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: But it's also amazing and the joy and the love you get from all of the children, seeing them interact and the differences.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Um, I think for them as well, I hope for their sake, seeing it with a positive lens.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: They've got influences coming from two households so all of our kind of knowledge and influences and love they've got replicated, but on a very different.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: You know, their other parents have got different hobbies and different jobs and different careers, so they're having all sorts of different um influences.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: So I think, try not to be hard on yourself or think of it as a negative.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: Just think of it as kind of, you know, double love and double support for them.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, as a working mum, it's just um, even even more juggling, a bit more organization, but also more joy.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: There's so much love and fun that comes from it.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's um, it's not always easy and I won't kind of paint it as a purely rosy picture because it's definitely there's definitely tough times, but yeah, I think, I think being that blended family can bring so much joy and and so much fun.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Um, you're a step parent is that you're a step mom is that right, yeah, so how have you navigated sort of stepping into that role as well?
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: yeah, that's the hardest actually, I think.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: I think you have you grow in confidence.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Being a mom, um, because it's your own journey and you've you know you've grown that and you've chosen how you want to parent.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Being a step parent is is tricky because you love them and then you have to give them back and you don't have all the influence, but you have some influence, um, you can support them, but you can only support them so far and it's that fine line between are you being a mum and a parent and you know, being the strict one with the rules and the discipline, or are you a friend and a friendly face and someone that you can come to and chat to.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's, it's definitely I've, I think, trickier than being a parent.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Not that parenting is easy, but there's kind of added level of complexity.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Um, but, as I say, it's also joyful, like she's an absolute.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: You know, she's just so much fun and brings so much joy to our lives.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: So it's, I couldn't imagine it any other other way and I don't think her others you know my children, my biological children I don't think they could either.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: She's a huge part as I say, do they all get on yeah, and actually we made that difficult um not difficult decision, but we didn't know covid was gonna happen, obviously, and we just bought the house and we're just moving in together, literally just for lockdown.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: So we didn't have an option.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: We were all suddenly locked, locked down together, yeah, which turned out to be amazing.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Um, it could have been a very, very difficult time and I'm sure for lots, you know, sadly, for lots of families, I think it was.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: It was a tricky time, but actually for us it was brilliant.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: We had all moved in together and got a lovely home and um enjoyed that heat wave together oh, I know.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was nice.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: We're recording this, aren't we in november and it's a horrible cold day we could do with a heat wave.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, although, yeah, lockdown wasn't all joy.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Uh, I was heavily pregnant, working full-time and homeschooling, so, yeah, and blending a family for the first time.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: It was it was tricky, but it's worked.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's worked out, though yeah they are great yeah well.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, georgie, for joining me today.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: If someone is interested in Paul Rea, maybe joining your organization, where can they find your vacancies?
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: yeah, definitely reach out on LinkedIn, um, and I'll get back to you um through the Pool Reweb website as well.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from anyone.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Brilliant.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: All right, we'll put all the links in the show notes.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Thank you Check you soon.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.