Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Surviving A High Conflict Divorce - with Dani Zetzer of Respect Legal

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Surviving A High Conflict Divorce - with Dani Zetzer of Respect Legal · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, the podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartnell, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: In soulful, deeply supportive DNMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the Wurrentry people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, welcome to another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Today on the podcast, I welcome special guest, Dani Zetza.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Dani is a family lawyer at her own firm, Respect Legal.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: She has the superpower of helping people feel like anything is possible.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: A powerhouse collaborative family lawyer, she puts her neck out on a daily basis to change systems through a bold, unconventional, and social impact approach to the law.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Danny is driven by a belief that separation and divorce can be done differently and founded Respect Legal to support families to reach agreements outside of court.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Her kind, warm and direct nature give her a disarming and calming presence, ideal for giving people a pathway to agency and finding their voice in times of change.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Danny is a single mother of three, a self-confessed nerd, and an eternal optimist.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm thrilled to say this conversation took lots of twists and turns.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And what started out as a conversation particularly about high conflict divorce just evolved quite naturally.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, we do talk about high conflict divorce, we do talk about de-escalation strategies, and we talk a whole lot more.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation almost as much as we enjoyed having it.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Danny and welcome to the podcast.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: It is great to have you finally here.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So happy to be here.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Let's kick off and love you to share a little bit with us about you, but really about why you do what you do.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's very personal for me.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't stumble into family law.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: It started for me with my parents' separation when I was seven.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was a very um traumatic experience.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happened was um my dad was really struggling with meeting the bills and keeping up, and the sheriff came and repossessed our home.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a Thursday morning.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was obviously very hectic.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't understand.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was the eldest, but obviously didn't understand what was going on.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I heard my mum in the bathroom on the phone to her lawyer, frantically asking for help.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And how I remember it was that there was a very cold, detached response, and there was no real help offered.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then she came out of the bathroom, we were on the landing, she knelt down, grabbed my shoulders, and said, Mummy needs you to be a big girl now.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Can you be a big girl for mommy?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Which is really common, right?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of a lot of eldest children get parentified in that moment.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: But how I remember it is thinking, well, why isn't this lawyer helping my mom?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And also, where's my lawyer?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Who's worried about me?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Who's taking care of me and thinking about what I need?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just became this mission, my life mission, that I wanted to help other mums and their children to not experience that overwhelm and vulnerability that we experienced as a family in that moment.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it really is all about that.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's what's driven me.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's always been family law for me.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, since primary school.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, it's a powerful story.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's not dissimilar to mine, although I was a grown-up, not a seven-year-old.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the power that seven-year-old Danny has led you or driven you to do this work is is, as I said, really powerful.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what do your parents think about the work that you do now?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're so proud.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm on like I have a beautiful relationship with both my parents.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what's really cool about my parents is they've both taken responsibility for what they brought to the end of their marriage, and and my dad is has shown a lot of insight, um, which I really admire.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think everyone mellows over time, and there is something to be said about time healing.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, I I walked into my house a few weeks ago and my dad was changing a light globe, and my mum was cooking dinner for my kids, and it was just natural, and that was really cool.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, they're super proud, they kind of feel like they own the firm vicariously.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: They just show up whenever they want and they're like, hi, and they have a coffee with the staff.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's hilarious.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty cool.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty cool.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, really, today I wanted to talk to you about the higher end conflict of separate that you know, the higher end of separate, let me start that again.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: High, high, higher conflict end of separation and divorce.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I wanted to start by asking you if somebody is wanting to leave a relationship, marriage, and they're concerned that their partner will tip into high conflict.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: What do you suggest, or what do you think needs to be done beforehand, privately, before they even broach the subject with a partner who they think might tip into high conflict?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's the key, is to do preparation beforehand in order to avoid it.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's really three key steps to that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think you really need to focus firstly on educating yourself in terms of what your rights are and responsibilities and getting good advice.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: As women, we often tend to listen to too many people and too many people's opinions, and that can really muddy the waters.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So finding someone that you really trust to get good advice and then start to really think about okay, well, how is this going to impact on my future?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing would really be to get your ducks in a row.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: So start doing a budget of what life would look like after separation.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of being in the fear state, actually do the work and examine what it would look like.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do your homework, reach out to mortgage brokers to work out, you know, do you have capacity to keep the home if that's important to you?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and do that work to get your head around it.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third part I think is probably the most important is to do the inner work.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're able, and I talk about this a lot, but if you're able to take personal responsibility for what you've brought to the table, then you're going to have more control over how reactive you are in these conversations, and you can really minimize the conflict in that way.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that might be by doing therapy or working with yourself, for example.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think there's real benefits to working with a divorce coach before you even announce the separation.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I see that that avoids a lot of a lot of conflict if you can do that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's often the way it starts, isn't it?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: That, and I I do say it with my clients who are in that should I stay, should I go, or I know I want to leave, but dot, dot, dot.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: The way you start these conversations, the way you start your separation process, the way you broach it with your partner, whether that you think they're going to be high conflict or not, really sets the tone and it can quickly spiral.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I like that.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: And people say things that they don't mean when they're in that fear state.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you've done, if you've come to this decision and your partner is not there yet, right, they're going to respond and sometimes say really nasty things like, I'm taking the kids off you, you're going to have nothing without me, you're going to be homeless.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so what my clients say is if they've had the opportunity to have advice from me before they announce the separation, they've got like that Danny sitting on their shoulder or in their head, and in their mind, they're like, Danny told me I'm going to be okay.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that can really calm things down because then you're not reactive.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going into that fight or flight mode.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're staying calm and centered as much as possible.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's you're already de-escalating before it gets an opportunity to escalate too high, too far, too fast.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, next thing I wanted to touch on narcissism, divorcing a narcissist, it is a term that's thrown around a lot.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I often talk about narcissism being a spectrum.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're all a little bit narcissistic, including today when I said, no, I don't want to be on video because I'm a bit a bit vain.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um I have very um strong opinions on the subject.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think that it's trendy now, that word, and and that's what we do, and we have different words for it in different generations.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like the previous generation, I think, when my parents were divorcing, everyone was talking about ego.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he has such a big ego.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're using, which is a clinical term, narcissism, which requires a diagnosis of nine traits.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that um we all have narcissistic traits.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And what I see in a lot of separations is yes, there are narcissistic traits.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that most of those traits come from that fight or flight mode.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So when people are in fear, they can sometimes display those traits um more strongly or for lack of a better word.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think everyone's a narcissist, right?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, and it's a common thing.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then it comes back again to for me, it comes back to personal responsibility because if we're using that label to avoid taking any responsibility ourselves, like I'm I'm I'm in high conflict, I'm going to court because I'm dealing with a narcissist.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a cop-out.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I hold my my clients accountable with that, which is sometimes uncomfortable.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know that that just delays the healing.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: When we are just blaming the other person and assigning this label to them as an explanation of how we got here, we're not doing the inner work to heal, which is what I really want for every client of mine.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just about legal advice, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so if we can take personal responsibility for at the very least attracting this person into our life, and I've been accused of victim blaming sometimes when I talk like this, okay?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not what I'm trying to get at, but the victim mentality keeps us stuck, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're not able to move forward and do all the beautiful things that we can do in our life after separation because we're stuck in that victim mentality.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is having the blame so firmly fixed on the other side without saying, well, what did I bring to the table?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that can really de-escalate conflict as well, just considering for a moment, what did I bring to this?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it as you said, it steps a client, a human, a person forward along a path of healing rather than maintaining or remaining stark.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I talk about it a lot too.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Even my kids say when they were little, they would come home from school and there'd been conflict at school.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well, what did you do?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it started for me, it started as a parent.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: How did you know how have you contributed to this situation?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I carry that through with my clients again, not in a victim-blaming way, similar to you.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, what can what is what is within your control here?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: What can you shift and change about to change the situation between the two of you?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the only it's sometimes it's a very small thing, which is just a little bit of compassion.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we, you know, this is what I say to my kids every day hurt people, hurt people.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you can show that bully, whether it's in the playground or in your divorce, that little bit of compassion, that might be enough to shift the dynamic and to bring them out of that fear state and to have more productive conversations.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I've been negotiating with a lawyer on the other side for months, and I'll say, we need a circuit breaker here.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I will try to encourage my client to meet up for coffee with their ex and just try and just break through it.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Break through it.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes all that's needed is just showing that little bit of compassion and just acknowledgement.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're hurt, I know you're suffering.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of leads me to a question that I wanted to ask you, and you sort of touched on it, but how is respect legal, how is your team different?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, firstly, I think it we're really proud that we have 10 clients in court at the moment out of 150.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um, and I do those statistics over and over again.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It really has not gone over 3% since I opened.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that takes a lot of courage as a lawyer, and so I hire based on values because it's actually easier as an employee lawyer to meet your budget when you have your clients in court.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's easier as a lawyer to hide behind a barrister, to hide behind a judge.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's easier, and so what we do is we choose to take the hard road to pick up the phone to the other side, to think creatively and out of the box, to keep families out of court.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's much easier to make money, let's be honest, it's a business by our clients going to court.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think there's an inherent conflict of interest there as an employee solicitor that you have this budget that you need to meet.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I've worked in firms where my billable hours for the previous week was printed and on my desk every Monday, and I was asked to account for why I was, you know, an hour down or right.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so when a matter settles, you panic as a lawyer, okay, where am I going to get my next billable hours from?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So my staff will will not be able to remember the last time I discussed their budget with them, if you asked any of them.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And every Monday morning in our team meeting, the first question I ask is, what matters have we settled this week?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then we applaud the lawyer who has settled their case.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it's a totally different way of looking at things.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people talk the talk, but we we've got that proof, that evidence in our statistics.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: We are not in court.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And when I went to um a party last night for barristers, they're like, oh, we don't see you around much.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like, yeah, because I'm doing the hard work.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gatekeeping the court system.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm doing.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And what are some of the techniques, skills, strategies that you use with your clients to be that gatekeeper, to keep them out of court?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: What are some of the specifics?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: You've already said pick up the phone and talk to the other boys.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's two sides to it, right?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the work I do with the actual client.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the different approach that we take with the other side.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the two sides of it.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So with the actual client, it's about challenging, not being the yes man, challenging, okay.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do we really need to argue about Christmas time starting at 11 or 12 o'clock?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Does it really make a difference?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if we think about it from the kids' perspective, are they really going to care?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, challenging them in terms of are we really going to spend$100,000 in court to get 20,000 more out of this settlement?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like you really need to consider, is that worth it?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and real and we attract clients based on values.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we it's not, we don't attract the clients that are seeking revenge to begin with, right?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's working with the client in that way, challenging them, um, giving them a holistic support, also creating a village around them.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily ethical for me to be giving psychological advice, financial advice.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: My my job is the legal role.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I have found is beautiful people who are just totally value-led to support my clients, whether that be an accountant, a financial advisor, a coach, but also totally out of the box, a naturopath, right?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: An acupuncturist, a child expert, a career advisor.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got these beautiful people that will go above and beyond to support the client so that they're not in that fight or flight mode, that they feel supported, protected, and are able to make rational decisions.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of acting out of fear.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And on the other side, yes, we work very differently as lawyers that the first thing we do is we pick up the phone.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: How can we help this family to get from A to B?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we say to the other lawyer.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: How can we help this family?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that changes the narrative.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of being petty about who keeps the vacuum cleaner, you know, we really try and focus on how are we going to help this family?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're still a family.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: They still need to be a family after this, after we're out of the picture.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't want to delay the healing.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: But taking responsibility as a lawyer to examine, well, hang on, am I being rigid here?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And respecting that these two people have had a life together and we need to sometimes be creative in coming up with solutions.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, we're huge proponents, like we love mediation, but also I'm very happy to work in the background and encourage clients to negotiate directly themselves.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because as soon as someone receives a letter from a lawyer, it doesn't matter if it's on pretty letterhead saying we want to achieve an amical separation, blah, blah, blah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like an act of war.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's scary.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that even the letter is the last resort.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people say court is the last resort.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Even the lawyer letter is a last resort for me.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: So interesting.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it and that letter landing is, as you said, it feels like an act of war.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: It it can just blow things up immediately.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I really love that you treat that as a last.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've always encouraged my clients that if that letter needs to go out, to call their ex first and give them a heads up.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And just before we deep dive into the second part of this podcast episode, I want to remind you that there's always the opportunity to have a conversation with me, to book a free intro call.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: If this episode is bringing up things for you and you feel like you're ready to take the next step towards working one-on-one with me, there's a link in the show notes to book your free intro call and to discuss coaching options, and I would love to be able to support you.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: When there's family violence and intervention orders involved, it's a different story, but you can still do it respectfully.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I was at an intervention order three weeks ago.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: My client was the wife, and she felt very sad that it had come to this.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, it was necessary.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: There was physical abuse of a child.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she asked me of something which is would seem strange, but I understood it.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I approached her ex husband and his parents and said, I want you to know that I'm not working against you today.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: My client wants you to know that, that we want to work together to get back to a place where you can operate as a family again.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is not, yeah.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I do and and he started crying, right?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: He really appreciated that.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it has been beneficial for them.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's just a token, right?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't cost me anything, it didn't take anything from me to do that, but just to come from that perspective.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and that's where we get stuck, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: We get stuck in our roles, and I love to advocate.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a fierce advocate.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: If a child is in danger, I will go to court all the way to trial.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I love court, it's a challenge.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's fun for a lawyer.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you, if you know you've always wanted to be a lawyer, standing up in court is the ultimate, right?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but um that high conflict and those families that end up in trial, it takes two.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: War takes two.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: There is no war if there is no retaliation.
• 22:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can't have a one-sided war.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, you can't.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as we see in our world at the moment.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but back to family law and war.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: What are you touched on this, you mentioned something before, you touched on it, and then we the conversation diverted.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: But what are some of the really creative or lesser-known solutions to a family law matter?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that win-win, where it's not a win-lose war battle, but you know, a creative win-win solution.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think you need to consider how to get through, not only to your client, but to the other side.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone learns differently, everyone absorbs information differently.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes one of the clients needs a reality check.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so to avoid it being required from a judge, which is very expensive and traumatic, to think about a creative solution to get that reality check across is really the key.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, um, a lot of people think 50-50 is fair, you know, we want to be fair 50-50 is fair, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: With with finances in particular.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's sometimes hard for me to shift, particularly my male clients, I'll be honest, from that mindset.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I will do is I will ask a financial planner to actually plot on a graph visually what each of their economic circumstances will look like.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let's project it.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: 10 years, 20 years, retirement, what it looks like.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And when my male client, if he's able to really access his true feelings in terms of fairness and wanting the mother of his children to be okay, when he sees that a 50-50 will show that by the time she's in retirement, she will have nothing.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: She will have eaten into all her capital and he's still going up, up, and up.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: To see that visually, it's like, yes, I get it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: So powerful.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen men start crying when they see that and be like, I was stuck in the 50-50 thinking that was fair.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now I see it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't want her to have nothing in retirement.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want that for her.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um or for my kids.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and then, you know, that's another way, creative ways to make it about the kids.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes there's people that are entitled to spousal maintenance, but that feels triggering, right?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we say, well, how can we how can the person with more financial stability then contribute to the children instead of it being a direct payment to the spouse, right?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have drafted the most creative child support agreements you can imagine.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and thinking outside of the box in that way.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then the breadwinner, for lack of a better word, is proud because they're contributing to their children and they love their children and they feel good about it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the other person who has less financial security feels like a weight's taken off their shoulders because they don't have to worry about those expenses.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many different ways, you know.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm collaboratively trained.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so that one of the first things you learn in your collaborative training is okay, you've got an orange and you need to split it 50-50, right?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can cut it in half, but some you need to think about interest.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Some people might really um want the juice, someone might want the rind to but bake a cake.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many different ways, and we do get rigid, particularly as lawyers.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: We follow legislation, we're worried about protecting ourselves, protecting our practicing certificates.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's natural.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's about challenging ourselves to think about what's in the best interest of the family, getting unstuck ourselves.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what it's not easy to work for me.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think all my staff would say that they love it, but I am I am very challenging.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I will think, and if a lawyer comes to me and they're stuck, I'm like, I want you to think of three things that are totally out of the box, then come back to me.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And someone's, you know, you know.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it and it's annoying, right?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: We get annoyed with one another, and then it's like, okay, now we need to repair.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and we say often to each other, I've got you.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: I've got you, I appreciate you, I appreciate you as a parent.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and those just those little statements, they can be so powerful.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Even when speaking with the children about their other parent, you know, I know personally as a as a co-parent, and you know, clients have experienced that the kids will come back from their other parent, like dad did this or mum did this, or she said, or he said, or whatever.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, Yep, yep, that happens at dad's house, or that happens at mom's house.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing that used to happen for us as a family was the kids would come back and they weren't allowed to do something, or they were allowed to do something.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, yep, that's fine.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Dad's rules in dad's house, mom's rules in mom's house.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not big things, it was just little, you know, most of them on the same page.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it's also about the way you speak to the children about their ex, their, their ex, their other parent.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you like a very, it's just an example that I think is so powerful, and it's just the difference of one word.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, if my daughter came to me and said, Can I have a sleepover when I'm at dad's this weekend?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the difference in ask your dad or ask dad.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: The word your kids don't understand.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hang on, he used to be dad, now he's your dad.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just that one word.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: And around kids and two homes that I try to use.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't always use it, but your house with dad, or your home with dad, and your home with mum, or your home with mum number one, your home with mom number two, rather than mum's house and dad's house.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's the kids' home, it's the kids' house.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and just putting yourself in the kids' shoes, like, would we want to live between two homes?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it sucks.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots that sucks about it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So when they forget things, to really have that patience and understanding, hang on, as an adult, I wouldn't want to be doing this.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm expecting this of my children.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: How can I make it easier on them?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: But that, you know, that respect in terms of um the other parent, even if you don't feel that way, your your kids really need to see that to a certain extent.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and it's really in the language that we use and our behavior, and even in an eye roll, you know, they're watching us.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: We can't be perfect, and it's okay for them to see conflict, but they also need to see resolution and repair.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I therefore I don't have to ask the question that I was going to ask next, which is um, you know, the best ways to protect our kids through through a tricky or high conflict divorce.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: You've probably touched on some of it, but is there anything else you would add?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think that it's important to realize as parents, we're not actually child experts.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're not qualified psychologists.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've been dedicated for many, many years.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I have a parent session with my children's psychologist every month.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because sending your kid to a psychologist, they go for one hour, a fortnight, it's talk therapy, it's beautiful, and it's good for them to have that opportunity.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: But how does that help us?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: How do I know how to parent?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: How did I learn how to parent from how I was parented, right?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from what we see in the media.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I I like to take that step further and and those monthly sessions that I've been doing for 10 years now.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's where I can take ownership and I work with someone who really holds me accountable.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like she does not mince her words, let me tell you.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and she will say, You effed up there.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: You need to own that and you need to apologize to your child.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I do.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're human, we're gonna make mistakes, but it's about okay, well, how can we support them?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it for me it comes back to that personal responsibility.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think too, as you said earlier, the language that we use when we're talking, you know, if it is a higher conflict, separation, divorce, the language that we use when we're speaking about the process, even the language we use when we're speaking about our other our ex our ex-partner, their other parent is really powerful and important.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: So taking responsibility, personal responsibility in terms of what our kids hear and see from us.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're we're role models, it's a very heavy burden.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I feel it because I really have a like a loose tongue, I really am an open book, you know.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's a heavy burden to protect these kids in the way that they deserve to be protected.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got three of them.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's wind up because you and I could talk all day.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um two closing questions I want to ask you.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: What's your favorite part of working in family law?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: What's the best thing about it?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: My my absolute favorite part is meeting a new client, hearing their story.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love people and I love people's stories, and then coming up with that strategy and thinking outside of the box on the spot.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love that that connection and that moment in the initial meeting where I notice their shoulders drop and holding that safe space for them, and I can see it in the shoulders where they're like, I'm gonna be okay.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's that's my ultimate.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I just got shivers down my spine.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, or did I?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: All right, final question, and why don't I ask almost all of my podcast guests if you could share a song or a piece of music with our listeners for anyone who's in the mess, in the weeds, um, you know, supporting or uplifting anyone navigating separation or divorce, what would that song be?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: My song is respect, Aretha Franklin, 100%.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that is like what amps me up.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where um I really challenge myself daily on have I addressed this issue with respect?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Have I dealt with in this relationship with respect?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I keep coming back to.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: If I can answer that at the end of the day, I sleep well at night.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it comes down to for me.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about respecting yourself as well, your own boundaries, your own needs, right?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we don't, when we betray ourselves, that's when things really fall apart.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: So questioning your true motivations, asking yourself, have I shown myself respect?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Have I shown the children respect for what they're going through?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and challenging yourself on that is the key for me.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I named the firm what I named it.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: And on that note, I think we'll close this conversation.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: For now, it could be continued in another episode, but for now, thank you so much, Danny, for being with us.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: I will drop links to your socials and website so that listeners can access, get direct access to Respect Legal and you.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for now, thanks so much for joining me.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much, I loved it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Sally Ann Hartnall, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: Until then.