Latest / Future Christian / Loren & Martha talk Culture, Leadership & Faith

Transcript

Loren & Martha talk Culture, Leadership & Faith · Future Christian

• 0:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (00:01)
• 0:03
  Hello, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My name is Loren Richmond Jr. and I am pleased to be here today with my co-host extraordinaire, Martha Tatarnic way up from the great state, or excuse me, my goodness, if that is not a Freudian slip, from the great nation of Canada. Welcome.
• 0:06
  Martha Tatarnic (00:13)
• 0:09
  Ha ha ha!
• 0:12
  Yeah, my
• 0:15
  gosh, that is a bad slip, Loren But yes, I'm glad to be with you. It's not quite the same as our in-person experience of last year, but you know, we can hope that we'll get to meet in person again one of these days.
• 0:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (00:21)
• 0:21
  Yes.
• 0:24
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, gosh, I have kicked us off great there. So yeah, what do we want to talk about today, Martha?
• 0:27
  Martha Tatarnic (00:39)
• 0:30
  Yeah
• 0:33
  Well, we could start by talking about how we will never be the 51st state, but maybe we want to lead off with something a little lighter.
• 0:36
  Loren Richmond Jr (00:50)
• 0:39
  Yeah.
• 0:42
  Ha ha!
• 0:45
  Martha Tatarnic (00:57)
• 0:48
  We've been talking a bit about, well, I really appreciate ⁓ every time Canada and the U.S. go to battle in a great big sports match that everybody's watching. We have some interesting texting that goes back and forth as we each root for the home team. aside from like last year when ⁓ we had a bet and Canada won and like I won that bet.
• 0:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (01:10)
• 0:54
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 0:57
  Martha Tatarnic (01:25)
• 1:00
  It's been a pretty hard road to walk as a Canadian sports fan ever since. Like, you know, there was the NHL Stanley Cup that didn't go our way. There was the World Series that didn't go our way. Now there's the Olympic hockey gold medal matches that did not go our way. So it's been, it's been hard for us here in Canada.
• 1:03
  Loren Richmond Jr (01:33)
• 1:06
  Yeah.
• 1:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:12
  So you're going to have to corral me, because we're going to get into this, how much we can talk about sports. like I'm thinking about, I saw this meme or this post on social media, like how close, like Canada was inches away from like the the IKF slide, or I don't know if you follow that closely, the the thing was game seven, like the I think it was the bottom of ninth where
• 1:15
  Martha Tatarnic (02:15)
• 1:18
  No.
• 1:21
  Loren Richmond Jr (02:21)
• 1:24
  Isaiah Kynarfalefa, I know the name because I follow baseball too closely, but he makes that slide in and he just misses it like by, I mean, six inches maybe of, and then they, they showed it with the other picture of like Devon Taves, who's a member of Cut the Car Out Avalanche. He makes the U.S. goalie, I think it's Halle, I can't remember his name, Connor Hallebook.
• 1:27
  Martha Tatarnic (02:32)
• 1:30
  yeah, yeah.
• 1:33
  Loren Richmond Jr (02:47)
• 1:36
  makes the stick save again like inches away from winning the gold. So these poor Canadian fans like inches away from two monumental wins.
• 1:39
  Martha Tatarnic (02:56)
• 1:42
  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's been pretty devastating, I have to say. And I know like, when the women lost the gold medal to, to the states, you texted me and said, Martha, you're getting like a little surprisingly emotional about this. ⁓ And yeah, like it is just a game, but also it's a game that has a lot of money behind it.
• 1:45
  Loren Richmond Jr (03:05)
• 1:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:51
  Martha Tatarnic (03:25)
• 1:54
  It's a game that has a lot of politics behind it. It's a game that has a lot of identity behind it, especially something like hockey, maybe baseball to a lesser degree. you know, it is hard when, like, the nation with the most weapons and the biggest economy keeps winning. Like, you kind of hope that
• 1:57
  Loren Richmond Jr (03:25)
• 2:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:06
  Martha Tatarnic (03:54)
• 2:09
  that sports is like a more neutral ground for competing and working out differences and may the best person win and the most talent rise to the top. And we all know that there's a lot more to it than that.
• 2:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (04:12)
• 2:15
  Yeah. And certainly the in, in my neck of the woods in the States, like we're broadly thrilled that the women and the men both won the hockey golds, but there's even been some political complications with that as well.
• 2:18
  Martha Tatarnic (04:27)
• 2:21
  Yeah. Yeah,
• 2:24
  I mean, I'm really interested to hear how that sits with all of you because, ⁓ like, the behaviors around the men's hockey team, to my mind, would really ⁓ dampen the enthusiasm for that win. Like, does that sort of feel, like, hard to absorb?
• 2:27
  Loren Richmond Jr (04:42)
• 2:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:33
  Yeah, I think it was like a couple things come to mind one. I was less like In the aftermath of the men winning like there's a lot of criticism of their reaction and I feel like that's a bit unfair because like They're in the hot, you know, they're immediately off the emotional high of winning They're kind of going crazy in the locker room and the president calls them and says something stupid like I don't Really frankly feel that strongly
• 2:36
  about their reaction because it's like, again, they're, they're caught at the moment. Like, what are you supposed to like turn on a dime and be like, no president, the leader of the free world, that's inappropriate. But like, it was just like, I was more disappointed again, like in, my nation's leaders, like the, I don't know what your equivalent would be in Canada, ⁓ Martha, but like the leader of the FBI, like going and like throwing down booze in the locker room. ⁓ you know, the president.
• 2:39
  Martha Tatarnic (05:51)
• 2:42
  Hmm.
• 2:45
  Loren Richmond Jr (05:53)
• 2:48
  of the United States making a joke about like not wanting to invite the women's team. I'm just like, just want like more class. I just want more like honor and respect from like my nation's leaders. So.
• 2:51
  Martha Tatarnic (06:06)
• 2:54
  Yeah, like you could sort
• 2:57
  of assume that in a country of how many million people live in the US, how many? Like that you could hire grownups for those top jobs. like, is that too low of a bar to set? Like I are too high of a bar to set? Like you can't have people who just are able to be adult in the room. Like it's baffling.
• 3:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (06:13)
• 3:03
  A lot? I forget.
• 3:06
  Right? Yeah.
• 3:09
  Well, I want to highlight here, if only because I'm trying to get it on the internet. If only because I thought she was like one of the few adults in the room of late. I can't, I'm struggling to find it. Hillary Knight, who was like, who was a three time, I think four time now Olympian. She put out a quote. Again, I'm trying to find the exact quote. She's on the American team kind of in response and she called it distasteful. The president's comments.
• 3:12
  And I thought, again, I thought it was like the most mature comment anybody had made regarding the entire situation. So I can't pull up her, I'm struggling to pull up her quote right now, but I think it was, I wanted to kind of highlight her, her, I maturity and wisdom in frankly the whole situation.
• 3:15
  Martha Tatarnic (07:10)
• 3:18
  Yeah.
• 3:21
  Yeah, when others go low, you go high. Like, I think that that does take a great deal of maturity because probably the first instinct is not to go high. Like, probably the first instinct is just to lash out.
• 3:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (07:28)
• 3:27
  Right.
• 3:30
  Right. Right.
• 3:33
  Yeah.
• 3:36
  Yeah.
• 3:39
  Martha Tatarnic (07:43)
• 3:42
  Yeah. I'm just going to note for our listeners because they can't really see this, but I am wearing the only piece of sports paraphernalia that I own. And so I hope that you appreciate this, Loren, but I'm wearing my Raptors hoodie. We the North. Yeah.
• 3:45
  Loren Richmond Jr (08:03)
• 3:48
  Okay, yeah, I'm here for it. I feel like I should have worn something. I
• 3:51
  have plenty of sports around me here and where I'm sitting.
• 3:54
  Martha Tatarnic (08:12)
• 3:57
  Yeah, well, I thought that I would wear that just for you because I know that you are a huge sports fan and I am really a ⁓ bandwagon sports fan. Like, I'm very open about that. Like I ⁓ can express a lot of opinions about sports if I get really into a certain series. ⁓ But, you know.
• 4:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (08:17)
• 4:03
  Yeah.
• 4:06
  Mm-hmm, that's fair.
• 4:09
  Martha Tatarnic (08:39)
• 4:12
  take it with a grain of salt because I don't know that much about anything.
• 4:15
  Loren Richmond Jr (08:44)
• 4:18
  Well, and this is a this is a good lead way to what we want to talk about too, is that I recently texted Martha and I'm like, Martha, I hope you're willing to admit this like on air, right? Your, your reality TV interest. Okay. Okay. So like, I realized like sports is now like, I recognize sports has become my reality TV. So let me.
• 4:21
  Martha Tatarnic (09:02)
• 4:24
  Yeah, I'm willing to admit that.
• 4:27
  Loren Richmond Jr (09:13)
• 4:30
  share a few things about sports Martha and you can share if you find parallels or comparisons in reality tv so like one thing for sure that i've been ridiculously emotionally involved with is like there's this nfl quarterback russell wilson who was had a had a successful career with seattle seahawks got traded to my hometown team the never broncos i was really excited because i was a
• 4:33
  Martha Tatarnic (09:20)
• 4:36
  Yeah.
• 4:39
  Loren Richmond Jr (09:43)
• 4:42
  fan of his fan, the Broncos, like it didn't work out well. And like, felt like he really got scapegoated. And I think there was some of like my own kind of personal angst. So like I've been like so stupidly emotionally involved in his career over the last few years. And I'm just like, what is wrong with me? Like, why am I so emotionally invested in this? And I, I purposely try not to get emotionally invested in so many things, but like I follow.
• 4:45
  Martha Tatarnic (09:49)
• 4:48
  Hmm.
• 4:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (10:11)
• 4:54
  sports, imagine like a lot of people follow, uh, reality TV or I know like to some degree it's, wouldn't say like manufactured, but there's certainly some like production and you know what I'm saying in crafting storylines to at least to some degree. And like I follow it, like obviously watching regularly following storylines, seeing what my favorite athletes are doing.
• 4:57
  Martha Tatarnic (10:26)
• 5:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:03
  Loren Richmond Jr (10:40)
• 5:06
  Certainly, certainly invested in the outcomes of games, but yeah, I was just thinking broadly about like my investment in sports sort of as a useful distraction from life. And then like, what do think it says about humans maybe in our angst or cultural angst? don't know that we're so into reality TV or distractions.
• 5:09
  Martha Tatarnic (11:05)
• 5:12
  Yeah, I mean, I think that there
• 5:15
  are so many parallels and to a large extent, I mean, they both are reality TV. obviously, ⁓ reality TV is more scripted and produced than ⁓ than watching a match. But I think it's kind of exciting in the same way. Like you set up some parameters, you throw some people into it and you see what happens. Right. Like
• 5:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (11:15)
• 5:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:27
  Right.
• 5:30
  Martha Tatarnic (11:33)
• 5:33
  you're kind
• 5:36
  Loren Richmond Jr (11:33)
• 5:39
  Right.
• 5:42
  Martha Tatarnic (11:34)
• 5:45
  of watching human nature deal with a certain game. Like a lot of reality TV shows are based on a game. Like this is the game. This is how you get to the end. This is how you win, right? And so it's interesting. It's an interesting social experiment, I think, in a similar way to sports. Like you set up the parameters, you see what happens. And I think that
• 5:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (11:46)
• 5:51
  Right. Right.
• 5:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:57
  Martha Tatarnic (12:04)
• 6:00
  both sports and reality TV. And again, like I say this as somebody who really hasn't been a sports fan. My son is really into ⁓ watching, especially like when we get to the the playoffs and stuff of various games. ⁓ So I've gotten into watching stuff because of him and I've like really enjoyed it. And I think I've
• 6:03
  Loren Richmond Jr (12:24)
• 6:06
  Yeah, yeah.
• 6:09
  Martha Tatarnic (12:34)
• 6:12
  really enjoyed it for a lot of the same reasons that I enjoy reality TV. So on the one hand, I think you have this distraction, as you said, like I think that's a good word. It's like you can get really emotionally invested in something that isn't actually that consequential, right? Like, like it feels like everything is on the line, but when your team loses, you're going to wake up the next day and
• 6:15
  Loren Richmond Jr (12:43)
• 6:18
  Right.
• 6:21
  Martha Tatarnic (13:02)
• 6:24
  like materially your life is still gonna be the same. Right? Like you're, you're...
• 6:27
  Loren Richmond Jr (13:08)
• 6:30
  I'm like,
• 6:33
  within me, I'm like fighting that. I'm like, no, Barth, it's not the same.
• 6:36
  Martha Tatarnic (13:14)
• 6:39
  But like, you're not, like your life is not in danger. Your job is not on the line unless you like work for a sports team.
• 6:42
  Loren Richmond Jr (13:16)
• 6:45
  Right. Right.
• 6:48
  Right. I mean, we could talk
• 6:51
  about sports betting being like a huge, I think, cultural problem in the States, but I digress from that for right now.
• 6:54
  Martha Tatarnic (13:26)
• 6:57
  Well, yeah.
• 7:00
  Yeah,
• 7:03
  okay. mean, like those things aside, like if you're just purely watching it for the love of the sport, like it feels consequential. It doesn't really change your life. But on the other hand, as we kind of alluded to at the beginning, talking about money and politics and all of those things, I think that we underestimate the importance of sports and reality TV.
• 7:06
  Loren Richmond Jr (13:34)
• 7:09
  Right.
• 7:12
  Martha Tatarnic (14:00)
• 7:15
  ⁓ to our detriment. Like I think that there is, especially with reality TV, I think that there is a ⁓ tendency to just like assume that it's silly and that it is mindless and to mess the forest for the trees. The forest being like the
• 7:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (14:03)
• 7:21
  Hmm.
• 7:24
  Yeah, yeah.
• 7:27
  Martha Tatarnic (14:27)
• 7:30
  leader of the United States of America is a former TV, reality TV star, right? Like, reality TV is an excellent mirror to ourselves. It is an excellent mirror to what captures people's attention, what they are talking about, how they perform, how they, yeah, how like basic human nature reacts to certain ⁓
• 7:33
  Loren Richmond Jr (14:31)
• 7:36
  Right. Right. Absolutely.
• 7:39
  Yes. Yes.
• 7:42
  Martha Tatarnic (14:56)
• 7:45
  social situations and, and, you know, how we reward certain behaviors, right? Like it's an amazing commentary on ourselves. Like if you want to understand your culture better, watching reality TV is a good place to start.
• 7:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (14:57)
• 7:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 7:54
  Right.
• 7:57
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking just about, again, in my world sports and how, like, the characteristics or how do you say it again? The behaviors, can't remember what word did you use, that we reward?
• 8:00
  Martha Tatarnic (15:38)
• 8:03
  Yeah,
• 8:06
  yeah, the behaviors we reward.
• 8:09
  Loren Richmond Jr (15:42)
• 8:12
  Yeah, I mean, certainly we want to talk about sportsmanship. I imagine you're familiar with that word, Like that's a word that... I don't want to make too many assumptions about your sporting knowledge,
• 8:15
  Martha Tatarnic (15:50)
• 8:18
  Yeah. Yeah, I'm familiar with that word.
• 8:21
  you
• 8:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (16:01)
• 8:27
  ⁓ sportsmanship certainly gets bantied around like in youth culture and there's some, like, but I just think like the ultimate, the ultimate, I mean, the ultimate marker of value, like in sports is whether you won or lost. And I, and I think this is again, where I'll bring it back to, my guy, Russell Wilson. Like I have like three football jerseys in my closet, NFL jerseys, actually four now.
• 8:30
  But three of them are like really, two of them are Colin Kaepernick who for really deep sports fans or folks who are culture warriors, so to speak, might remember that name. Like I have a Colin Kaepernick jersey, like, know, it certainly was controversial at the time, but I respected his, his desire to stand up for what he believed in or in his case, you know, take a knee for what he believed in. I have a Tim Tebow jersey, another kind of like deep sports pull, but he's a
• 8:33
  Martha Tatarnic (16:55)
• 8:36
  Yeah.
• 8:39
  Loren Richmond Jr (17:00)
• 8:42
  A professor in Christian has done a lot of good in, in, in, nonprofit and, and disability work communities, stuff like that. Certainly to the right of me and I think theologically, but someone I respect for his, his commitment to trying to do the right thing. And then again, Russell Wilson, a guy I respect for his faith. So I found like, just don't like rooting for people who are just like dirtbags.
• 8:45
  Martha Tatarnic (17:28)
• 8:48
  Right. Yeah. Yeah.
• 8:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (17:30)
• 8:54
  How does
• 8:57
  that parallel to reality TV?
• 9:00
  Martha Tatarnic (17:33)
• 9:03
  Well, it's interesting because like two of my favorite shows right now are Survivor and Traders. And my gosh, Traders is so it's ⁓ what's kind of called third wave reality TV. So it's like it pulls people from all different shows. like people that you would know from previous shows and then they come on to the Traders and ⁓
• 9:06
  Loren Richmond Jr (17:41)
• 9:09
  Traders? What's traders?
• 9:12
  ⁓
• 9:15
  Okay.
• 9:18
  Martha Tatarnic (18:02)
• 9:21
  And a couple of, like it's this group dynamic, they're in a castle in Scotland and a few of the people are selected at the beginning of the game as traitors. And every night they murder somebody. I mean, they don't literally like spoiler alert. They're not really murdering people, but like somebody gets murdered. And then every day there's a round table where they try to guess the traitors. And if they have to banish somebody and they're trying to banish a traitor.
• 9:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (18:17)
• 9:27
  Sure.
• 9:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:33
  Martha Tatarnic (18:32)
• 9:36
  so that at the end you just have faithfuls. If at the end of the game there are just faithfuls left then they get the money. But if there's one trader left at the end then the trader takes all the money. it's yeah like it so in both that show ⁓ and Survivor there is a lot of deceit that is built into the game and
• 9:39
  Loren Richmond Jr (18:40)
• 9:42
  Hmm.
• 9:45
  Wow.
• 9:48
  Yeah.
• 9:51
  Martha Tatarnic (19:01)
• 9:54
  There is like a sort of purity to the game, like that you are allowed to behave in ways that you wouldn't normally behave. You're allowed to lie. You're allowed to, ⁓ yeah, like manipulate people in ways that wouldn't be, applauded in the real world, but it's a game. It's a game. You have to play the game, like just play the game. Don't get like,
• 9:57
  Loren Richmond Jr (19:13)
• 10:00
  Right.
• 10:03
  Martha Tatarnic (19:30)
• 10:06
  too caught up in feeling badly about playing the game or hurt that somebody played the game against you. And at the same time, there are all of these dynamics that you also kind of watch in terms of how the audience reacts to how people play the game. That at the end of the day, there is still a draw toward those who...
• 10:09
  Loren Richmond Jr (19:36)
• 10:12
  Yeah.
• 10:15
  Martha Tatarnic (19:58)
• 10:18
  seem to be playing with some level of integrity, some kind of, some kind of revealing of character that, like, that we can feel good about. yeah, it's, like, it's, it's interesting to see that as, as kind of a, an element. And mean, even like dating shows.
• 10:21
  Loren Richmond Jr (20:02)
• 10:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:27
  Martha Tatarnic (20:25)
• 10:30
  They're not set up as games, but they are games.
• 10:33
  Loren Richmond Jr (20:25)
• 10:36
  Right.
• 10:39
  Right, because you want to win
• 10:42
  the... you know, win the relationship, I suppose, right?
• 10:45
  Martha Tatarnic (20:32)
• 10:48
  You want to
• 10:51
  win the relationship, then also with all of these shows, like the real win is actually Instagram followers. Like this is a pipeline toward becoming a professional influencer. So like there's the, but how you play the game, how you navigate the dynamics is going to influence how many people want to follow you outside of the show.
• 10:54
  Loren Richmond Jr (20:42)
• 10:57
  Right. Right.
• 11:00
  Yeah.
• 11:03
  See, and this is where your point about it being a mirror, I think are perfect. Cause two things come to mind for me. One is like, I don't know if you feel this way in Canada, but man in the States, just feels like corruption and just blatant self dealing has just become the norm. And there's just, I think they're just this assumption in American culture that like everybody is corrupt. So you might as well go out and get yours. Like, I mean, quite literally like
• 11:06
  Like, this is what I find so just infuriating about our leadership right now in the States. It's just like the blatant corruption. It's just infuriating. And it seems to be just kind of like, well, I think they're just because like there's a sense like everybody's doing it. So at least they're doing it. so why not? You two is you point about like the dating shows.
• 11:09
  The goal is like winning for Instagram to again, bring this back to my sports. Like the ESPN, which is a, I don't know if you guys get ESPN in the Canada, but ESPN, like one of the things used to be like a pretty reputable, like sports news cable channel. Now it's just like garbage because like they realize like the goal isn't to have sports programming. The goal is to go viral on social media.
• 11:12
  Martha Tatarnic (22:30)
• 11:15
  Yeah, yeah.
• 11:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (22:31)
• 11:21
  So it's like, it's just like people yelling at each other. ⁓ and again, like this is kind of what I think about how this trickles down to church in, in our broader cultures. Like it's the goal is just to go viral on like, even as we're this, Martha, like Riverside will give me, the AI will give me an AI produced several different clips that they are most likely to go viral, which is just ridiculous.
• 11:24
  Martha Tatarnic (22:59)
• 11:27
  Yeah, yeah, but I mean, all of that gets tied up into, ⁓ you know, being feeling like you have something that you want to communicate and feeling like you have something that should be communicated. ⁓ But like to, yeah, to what degree do you do you sort of succumb to the cynicism of all of it, right?
• 11:30
  Loren Richmond Jr (23:13)
• 11:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:36
  Mm-hmm
• 11:39
  So If I can bring us back here so look we've been talking We could talk about this for a long time. Like what do think it's?
• 11:42
  Martha Tatarnic (23:37)
• 11:45
  Yeah, I can
• 11:48
  talk about reality TV all day. Like, seriously. ⁓
• 11:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (23:40)
• 11:54
  I mean I could talk sports all day too, so no shame.
• 11:57
  What do you think, like, where's the connection here to ministry, to church leadership? Because I think...
• 12:00
  Yeah, I don't even know.
• 12:03
  Martha Tatarnic (24:00)
• 12:06
  Well, I think that there's a huge connection. And it's one that I think about a lot because like the scale is very different. I mean, if you're not a mega church ⁓ evangelical pastor in the States, like there are some celebrity pastors, but the vast majority of people who are in church leadership are by no means, you know, in the realm of celebrity. However,
• 12:09
  Loren Richmond Jr (24:11)
• 12:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:18
  Martha Tatarnic (24:30)
• 12:21
  We are under public scrutiny on a regular basis. And we do depend on building some kind of platform to some degree. Again, it's a very different scale. And it may or may not involve social media or an online component. But there is. ⁓
• 12:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (24:35)
• 12:27
  Right.
• 12:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:33
  Yeah.
• 12:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:39
  Martha Tatarnic (25:00)
• 12:42
  a necessity if you are a church leader for people to believe that you have something to say that they want to hear, right? Like that's, I don't think there's anything cynical about saying that. That is just the reality. Like we are professional communicators among other things, like, but that is a component of our job.
• 12:45
  Loren Richmond Jr (25:10)
• 12:48
  Right.
• 12:51
  Right, think it's, yeah, reality.
• 12:54
  Right. Right.
• 12:57
  Martha Tatarnic (25:24)
• 13:00
  ⁓ and it's not the only reason why people join churches and it's not the only thing that makes a church successful. But again, it is a component of what. Flourishing ministry looks like is that there is a message that is being communicated effectively. And with that, think, you know, comes a lot of pressure that.
• 13:03
  Loren Richmond Jr (25:32)
• 13:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:12
  Martha Tatarnic (25:53)
• 13:15
  I think in one way or another, you have to figure out how to navigate and hopefully that you can figure out how to navigate in a healthy way because you will in ministry run up against ⁓ people making assumptions about you ⁓ and projecting things onto you and judging.
• 13:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (26:17)
• 13:21
  Mm-hmm. Right.
• 13:24
  Martha Tatarnic (26:22)
• 13:27
  how you present yourself and how you speak and what you say and whether you should have said that or whether you should have said something else. ⁓ I mean, the scrutiny I've gotten over the years about how I dress and like wardrobe choices that I make. ⁓ I don't know whether it's the same for men. Yeah, so there's just...
• 13:30
  Loren Richmond Jr (26:24)
• 13:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:36
  Right.
• 13:39
  Mmm.
• 13:42
  It's not. It's not.
• 13:45
  Martha Tatarnic (26:51)
• 13:48
  There is a lot that gets projected onto you. There's a lot of expectations. There's a lot of hero worship and scapegoating that can happen in the midst of that, especially when systems feel anxious. ⁓ So there are dynamics that I think we see in the public sphere and in the sphere of celebrity that, again, are very different in scale, but they're not
• 13:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (27:03)
• 13:54
  Yeah.
• 13:57
  Right.
• 14:00
  Martha Tatarnic (27:21)
• 14:03
  They're not completely different in content.
• 14:06
  Loren Richmond Jr (27:24)
• 14:09
  Yeah, yeah,
• 14:12
  for sure. Let me reemphasize. mean, I do not think men face near at least. Yeah. I don't think we've we face broadly speaking, like near the amount of, like you said, critique on our appearance or dress or work life balance. Like I think there's still perhaps it's changing. Hopefully it's changing. Like, that's for sure different. I'm curious, like
• 14:15
  I know something that I've just heard again and again recently is there, there's so much now, think, critique around what a pastor will say, like in a sermon. And like, I'm thinking of, I don't know if you saw this, but a government official in the States recently criticized the Pope's interpretation of what the Bible has to say about immigration, which is just like, I mean, shocking and appalling, but also somehow unsurprising. So there is this kind of like.
• 14:18
  And I'm curious, like, if it's like this in Canada, there is this kind of just assumption, like, anything the preacher says is up for challenge and debate.
• 14:21
  Martha Tatarnic (28:34)
• 14:24
  Yeah, yeah, and especially when you're weighing in on hot topics and politics, especially it is ⁓ you are really inviting some vitriol. And at the same time, like, I mean, my, friend and colleague, Tom, who works with me here at St. George's, we've both said, like, we have talked about politics more in our sermons over the past year than
• 14:27
  Loren Richmond Jr (28:42)
• 14:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:33
  Yeah.
• 14:36
  Martha Tatarnic (29:01)
• 14:39
  We probably have in our entire career before now. But at the same time, as much as you're inviting blowback, if you're not speaking to the things that everybody is concerned about and that is kind of front and center in our collective conversation, if we're not speaking to that, then what are we doing?
• 14:42
  Loren Richmond Jr (29:05)
• 14:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:48
  Right.
• 14:51
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 14:54
  Martha Tatarnic (29:33)
• 14:57
  Like,
• 15:00
  do you, I'm interested like in the mainline church, how much politics gets discussed in the states.
• 15:03
  Loren Richmond Jr (29:44)
• 15:06
  Yeah, I mean, I'll be frank, like, this may be unpopular. I think it's too much. But I think what I mean by that is...
• 15:09
  I think sometimes that can be too much like nitty gritty politics and rather than like, like more clear, like again, think like scripturally, like, I don't think there's any lack of clarity on like treatment of immigrants. Like I think that's a biblically clear, like I don't-
• 15:12
  Martha Tatarnic (30:27)
• 15:15
  No.
• 15:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (30:29)
• 15:21
  Like it's funny, like, uh, I just saw news this morning that John Piper, I don't know you've heard that name, pretty big name in conservative circles, at least in the States, reformed pastor and theologian, like posted, tweeted something about, uh, Leviticus, like we should welcome the stranger. Like, again, pretty obvious, like you should treat people with dignity and respect, like a no brainer. And of course he got like all this pushback from people on the right of like, Oh,
• 15:24
  Martha Tatarnic (30:55)
• 15:27
  well.
• 15:30
  Loren Richmond Jr (30:57)
• 15:33
  caveat, caveat, caveat, caveat. ⁓ so to me, like, I would love to see like more, like I would really, really love to see some just really more like less about like critiquing. Cause I think, I think when you critique, in my opinion, I may be wrong on this. So, but I think when there's, when there's like direct critique of policy that invites
• 15:36
  you're being partisan. But if you're like, listen, like this is, ⁓ I don't know how you, again, like, I think the Bible is clear and like, we're all created in the image of God. Like, this is what I try to email, like my congressman, my local representative, like we're all created in the image of God. Christ died for all. God loved us all. Like to me, that's pretty clear. Like, let's lean on that.
• 15:39
  Martha Tatarnic (31:30)
• 15:42
  Hmm.
• 15:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:48
  Yeah, yeah, I mean, I agree. think it's pretty clear and that's why it can feel just really, I guess, polarizing when such hard lines are taken for religious reasons that don't line up with that.
• 15:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (32:11)
• 15:54
  Yeah.
• 15:57
  Martha Tatarnic (32:23)
• 16:00
  It feels confusing.
• 16:03
  Loren Richmond Jr (32:25)
• 16:06
  Yeah. Yeah. I will say like, think I just read Ryan Burgess new book and he made the point that there really is like a far, far right and a far left in the States. That's really driving the conversation. And many folks are not like directly in middle, but you know, they're not at the extremes. And you brought up the word like anxiety.
• 16:09
  I think there is this anxiety of like, have to align with one of those two sides. and I think like the anxiety is really strong. They're really strong on the right. Obviously right now, like we have to be like all in on just whatever a certain person says in our States or certain person says in the United States, if you know what I mean.
• 16:12
  Martha Tatarnic (33:22)
• 16:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (33:24)
• 16:21
  I was listening to, I was, I'm always tempted to text you these Martha, cause I know your husband loves him. ⁓ Carrie Newhoff podcasts. And he had on amongst other guests, ⁓ Ed Stetzer who's pretty sure he's Baptist. And certainly I would consider like pretty conservative theologically. ⁓ but he, he was saying at his church in California, he was leading like a, ⁓ a sermon series and like,
• 16:24
  Martha Tatarnic (33:33)
• 16:27
  Ray loves him.
• 16:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:33
  You
• 16:36
  my gosh.
• 16:39
  Loren Richmond Jr (34:16)
• 16:42
  Like if you come out as like anti-woke, like that's a ticket to church growth in the States and it is and I think this is like the real danger is like we, shouldn't say we, because I don't, but many people are like, look what God is doing. Like we're just coming out hard, hard right flirting with Christian nationalism. And then it's like, all these people are flooding to our church and look what God is doing. And I, I appreciate Ed Stetzer said this again, I disagree with him on some points theologically, but I think he's a
• 16:45
  Martha Tatarnic (34:21)
• 16:48
  Wow, that's amazing.
• 16:51
  Yeah.
• 16:54
  Loren Richmond Jr (34:45)
• 16:57
  wise person. He said like, he said he appreciates people coming to know Jesus, but he also is like concerned about the implications. You know, like they're being formed or they're being discipled not so much in Christianity, but in like hard right politics.
• 17:00
  Martha Tatarnic (34:54)
• 17:03
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 17:06
  Yeah, hard right politics. I mean, I think a variety of people that we have interviewed here and there about, ⁓ about numbers and Christianity and decline and all of those kinds of things have pretty accurately identified that, you know, a major component of why, ⁓ why that sort of hard line right
• 17:09
  Loren Richmond Jr (35:14)
• 17:12
  Right.
• 17:15
  Martha Tatarnic (35:32)
• 17:18
  ⁓ version of, of Christianity slash politics that anti, anti woke does attract numbers is because it like people do, I guess, if they subscribe to that worldview, feel like they need a place to go with that. Right. Like, and ⁓ so like you're, you're kind of building your ⁓ growth model around.
• 17:21
  Loren Richmond Jr (35:40)
• 17:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:27
  Right.
• 17:30
  Martha Tatarnic (36:00)
• 17:33
  being in opposition to things versus like ⁓ being in solidarity with or standing alongside or whatever. ⁓ And I think that can be a big temptation if you're feeling disenfranchised and angry. You can feel pretty passionate about.
• 17:36
  Loren Richmond Jr (36:03)
• 17:39
  Yeah.
• 17:42
  Martha Tatarnic (36:30)
• 17:45
  joining a group that shares, shares that with you.
• 17:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (36:33)
• 17:51
  Right. Right.
• 17:54
  So I mean, this, I want to ask this hard question too, Martha, if I can, since we're kind of like exploring hard questions. I think I talked to you about this like when we met in person.
• 17:57
  Like when we went your husband Dan's church, like there was Canadian flags in the sanctuary. And like, that's a thing that's been very controversial in the States of like having an American flag in your sanctuary. So certainly like there's a lot of pushback and for good reason and sensitivity on this in the States. Like, what do you think? Like how, how do you be like Christian and patriotic?
• 18:00
  Martha Tatarnic (37:09)
• 18:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:06
  Loren Richmond Jr (37:20)
• 18:09
  Because I don't think necessarily having an American flag in your sanctuary is horrible, but also it's become this hot-button issue. So it seems like you all in Canada perhaps navigated this a little bit more successfully than some of us in the States. So what do you think is the tension or the balance that you have to have there?
• 18:12
  Martha Tatarnic (37:45)
• 18:15
  Yeah, I mean, there definitely is no easy answer to that. And I would say that you're going to find different denominations and then within denominations come down on different answers. ⁓ I mean, the Anglican Church does tend to be historically a little more aligned with the establishment. ⁓ You know, like
• 18:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (38:03)
• 18:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:24
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 18:27
  Martha Tatarnic (38:15)
• 18:30
  Church of England is a national church, ⁓ right? There's definitely an alignment between church and state ⁓ that we are historically connected to. Like here at St. George's, we are the regimental church for, or the garrison church for the local regiment. And so their flags fly and...
• 18:33
  Loren Richmond Jr (38:19)
• 18:36
  Right.
• 18:39
  Martha Tatarnic (38:42)
• 18:42
  or not fly, but are hung in our sanctuary. have a Canadian flag. We have a British flag. A lot of those flags reflect the history of St. George's. ⁓ And, you know, there would be lots of Christians who would think that that is really inappropriate, although for us, it's just kind of the waters that we swim in.
• 18:45
  Loren Richmond Jr (38:42)
• 18:48
  Okay.
• 18:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:00
  Martha Tatarnic (39:13)
• 19:03
  I know when I, ⁓ served in an Anglican Lutheran church, there was a lot more pushback against anything that sort of raked of supporting a particular nation because of the, the history of the Lutheran church and Nazism. and yeah, so like there was.
• 19:06
  Loren Richmond Jr (39:29)
• 19:09
  Okay
• 19:12
  Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking that.
• 19:15
  Martha Tatarnic (39:42)
• 19:18
  There was a real discomfort with anything that reminded people of that. I think how I sort of ⁓ square that circle myself is I do feel very grateful to live in Canada ⁓ and having some reflection of ⁓ gratitude for being able to live in a country that is free and
• 19:21
  Loren Richmond Jr (39:45)
• 19:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:27
  Martha Tatarnic (40:12)
• 19:30
  where I can practice my faith and be who I am with freedom seems like that seems like something to lift up with gratitude to God. But there's definitely a fine line there.
• 19:33
  Loren Richmond Jr (40:24)
• 19:36
  Right. Right.
• 19:39
  Yeah,
• 19:42
  it's, I'm, I'm appreciating that you brought up like the different cultural contexts of like Anglicanism or the Church of England, certainly having some, you know, cultural connection and more than just cultural, but certainly it's part of like the history of establishment to the state. You mentioned, you know, the Anglican Lutheran Church, certainly there in their past history. ⁓ but again, you mentioned the flags. I'm thinking like, I think it was, you weren't there when Dan took my wife and I.
• 19:45
  Martha Tatarnic (40:59)
• 19:48
  Yeah, I know, it's not there. St. Albans.
• 19:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (40:59)
• 19:54
  to um gosh what was this
• 19:57
  okay in no no not just in st albans but in the the toronto church
• 20:00
  Martha Tatarnic (41:07)
• 20:03
  ⁓
• 20:06
  RIT.
• 20:09
  Loren Richmond Jr (41:10)
• 20:12
  One of the interesting things, like I still remember is he's talking about all these different flags and they're all just like, so many of them were like so old and deteriorating. And he said it was part of the history that they just hang up there until they fall. And then a new one goes up and it was such a little interesting, uh, historical tidbit there.
• 20:15
  Martha Tatarnic (41:29)
• 20:18
  Yeah, well he was full of historical tidbits when you came to visit.
• 20:21
  Loren Richmond Jr (41:33)
• 20:24
  Yeah,
• 20:27
  my wife was bored to death, but I was enjoying it.
• 20:30
  Martha Tatarnic (41:36)
• 20:33
  ⁓
• 20:36
  my gosh, the truth comes out.
• 20:39
  Loren Richmond Jr (41:41)
• 20:42
  She's like, she's like, Loren, why can't we just spend more time in what's the other place we went to the, the, ⁓ yeah. She's like, let's just do Niagara on the lake all day, every day.
• 20:45
  Martha Tatarnic (41:49)
• 20:48
  Niagara-on-the-Lake, Niagara Falls.
• 20:51
  We don't need to hear the whole history of every piece of Niagara.
• 20:54
  Loren Richmond Jr (42:00)
• 20:57
  Yeah, I'm like, yes, we do. Yes, we do. Yeah,
• 21:00
  we have, we have different tastes and that's what makes ⁓ our marriage work, I think. I want to ask about this too, because like I recently had this realization and this is probably going to come out a little bit strong. So hopefully no future churches are hearing it too strong. But like, I don't think I'm like lead pastor material, if that makes sense. And I want to frame it this way, like
• 21:03
  Martha Tatarnic (42:28)
• 21:06
  Yeah
• 21:09
  Loren Richmond Jr (42:31)
• 21:12
  Seeing your role, how you work on like a team, like you have a, if I understand, I don't know how you'd explain it, like you're co-pastors, like.
• 21:15
  Martha Tatarnic (42:41)
• 21:18
  Yeah,
• 21:21
  we co-rectors, co-pastors. Yeah.
• 21:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (42:44)
• 21:27
  Like
• 21:30
  I, I just like a good friend of mine said this to me a while back and I think it's really clicked to me. I just, there's certain things I'm not good at and having to carry the entire load overwhelms me, I think. And so I'm wrestling with that because so many jobs in the States are solo password jobs because there's not the financial wherewithal to have.
• 21:33
  like two people on staff. Certainly people are more attracted to a full-time job than a part-time job. So even splitting the job in two for economic reasons, people like, I'd rather just take a full-time job because it's, hard to piece together part-time jobs, but talk more about like, what do you think makes like the, you've appreciated about your role and again, a team ministry and how
• 21:36
  Martha Tatarnic (43:23)
• 21:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:42
  Loren Richmond Jr (43:44)
• 21:45
  if you've given thought to how that could be replicated even in other contexts.
• 21:48
  Martha Tatarnic (43:49)
• 21:51
  Yeah, I do think about this a lot. ⁓ I mean, I say this all the time that I believe the main reason for overall happiness in ministry for the past two plus decades is that I have always worked in a team. Even when I was in a smaller church, we were still able to create this sense of team, like there being more than just me.
• 21:54
  Loren Richmond Jr (44:03)
• 21:57
  Yeah.
• 22:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:03
  Martha Tatarnic (44:18)
• 22:06
  at the helm. ⁓ And at the same time, I mean, I have always felt very clearly called to lead a church, like not to an associate role. Like I have always wanted to lead a church, ⁓ or not wanted to, but felt like that was my direction. ⁓ So I do count myself very fortunate that
• 22:09
  Loren Richmond Jr (44:19)
• 22:12
  Right.
• 22:15
  Mmm.
• 22:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:21
  Martha Tatarnic (44:48)
• 22:24
  I have had the opportunity to do both of those things, to work with others and also to be able to lean into that sense of call. ⁓ I mean, ultimately, I am hopeful for the future in certain contexts that that can be more of a reality going forward. like, again, there's a lot of caveats to what I'm going to say, but
• 22:27
  Loren Richmond Jr (45:18)
• 22:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:33
  Martha Tatarnic (45:18)
• 22:36
  I think in urban areas where denominations are seriously wrestling with kind of the future of the church, I think that there is an opportunity for consolidating and investing resources in a way that equips ⁓ more like
• 22:39
  Loren Richmond Jr (45:39)
• 22:42
  Yeah.
• 22:45
  Martha Tatarnic (45:46)
• 22:48
  ministry centers with teams, right? That's not going to work in like rural ⁓ Northern Ontario, for example. ⁓ But in say St. Catharines where I live, like, there's, I think, eight Anglican churches. ⁓ And each one of those, you know, has a
• 22:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (45:49)
• 22:54
  Yeah.
• 22:57
  Right.
• 23:00
  Right. Right.
• 23:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:06
  Martha Tatarnic (46:12)
• 23:09
  collection of resources associated with it. Is the future of Anglicanism in St. Catharines going to be eight separate churches in St. Catharines? Or is there a way of saying, okay, like we can be strategic about our resources in a way that equips ⁓ teams and ministries for flourishing, not for just hanging on by the fingernails.
• 23:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (46:24)
• 23:15
  Yeah.
• 23:18
  Yeah, let's flush the saddle a little bit if that's okay, cause I want to hear more. Cause like I've in, well, let me say it from this way. Like in evangelical church culture, especially like in big churches, the huge like behemoth campus model is sort of going away. And now they're leaning into like what's called satellite churches. Well, they'll have like a main campus and then they'll have like a church, you know, 20, 30 minutes away and another shoot off.
• 23:21
  Martha Tatarnic (46:43)
• 23:24
  Yeah.
• 23:27
  Okay.
• 23:30
  Loren Richmond Jr (47:10)
• 23:33
  church 20, 30 minutes away. And like the most obvious example is like this church called Life Church, which started in Oklahoma in the States. And now there's a church campus about 10 minutes from me, you know, in Colorado of all places. And they, they video in like the preaching is all videoed in, which is just sort of wild. And I've seen small, like I'm seeing small examples of this in
• 23:36
  Martha Tatarnic (47:17)
• 23:39
  Right.
• 23:42
  Right.
• 23:45
  Loren Richmond Jr (47:39)
• 23:48
  some mainland circles, well, they'll treat like a sort of a, like there'll be a small struggling independent church and that a bigger, ⁓ successful or, know, sustainable vibrant church will kind of take them over and adapt them and sort of as a, again, a different campus. to like, to me, like, this is a model that like, I feel like I could so much more be successful in.
• 23:51
  Martha Tatarnic (48:04)
• 23:54
  Hmm interesting
• 23:57
  Loren Richmond Jr (48:06)
• 24:00
  Like if I'm like, I don't need to
• 24:03
  carry the whole thing, but I have, you know, I'm in charge of X, Y or Z and I'm part of a team. And like, to me, like, I feel like I could really excel in that kind of role. And I think, like you said, for resources, like we don't need, like, if there's one person like doing the finances and there's one person kind of overseeing children's ministry for, for all the campuses.
• 24:06
  Like obviously you're going to need to have some amount of staffing and volunteers for each campus to use that verbiage. But like you said, even if a resource is, it makes so much more sense.
• 24:09
  Martha Tatarnic (48:48)
• 24:12
  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as you're speaking, I, I'm feeling like there's kind of another element to all of this that, that we can probably be working at changing, which is, ⁓ just the, like toxic clericalism, because the idea that like the pastor does carry the, the whole thing on their two little shoulders is like,
• 24:15
  Loren Richmond Jr (49:06)
• 24:18
  Yes. Yes.
• 24:21
  Martha Tatarnic (49:17)
• 24:24
  pretty toxic, like, and should be good at everything and should know everything and like the buck stops with them on everything. Like even if you can't ⁓ have like paid staff team, like that should not be the model or the expectation. And, you know, with things being in a state of
• 24:27
  Loren Richmond Jr (49:19)
• 24:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:33
  Right.
• 24:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:39
  Martha Tatarnic (49:46)
• 24:42
  like precipitous change and like need for.
• 24:45
  Loren Richmond Jr (49:48)
• 24:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:51
  Martha Tatarnic (49:54)
• 24:54
  Like whether we like it or not, things are gonna change and need to adjust or bust. ⁓ Like hopefully there is some like just interrogating of those assumptions that haven't really served anybody well. Like name who is being served well by having to be good at everything and.
• 24:57
  have all the expectations land on them.
• 25:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (50:26)
• 25:03
  Yeah,
• 25:06
  yeah, because like I'm not good at everything
• 25:09
  Martha Tatarnic (50:29)
• 25:12
  I'm not good at everything. Like, I'm really not. Yeah. And, you know, as we were kind of saying offline before we started the conversation, like, there are just aspects of ministry that probably any of us, if we're being honest, feel kind of exhausting. And, and other parts that feel really life giving. And, and if you can figure out some
• 25:15
  Loren Richmond Jr (50:51)
• 25:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:21
  Right.
• 25:24
  Martha Tatarnic (50:59)
• 25:27
  different models going forward that ⁓ allow for more life giving and less exhausting. surely that's gonna serve everybody better. It's not just like a matter of self care, of clergy. It's sort of a matter of like congregational vitality.
• 25:30
  Loren Richmond Jr (51:07)
• 25:33
  Yeah.
• 25:36
  I want to reference just two episodes I think relate to this. One was your conversation with William Harrison that I think relates to this conversation. I'm thinking my conversation with, I think it's Ariana Malloy. Again, she talked about kind of job crafting, but certainly like William Harrison's like do less with less is like important here. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
• 25:39
  Martha Tatarnic (51:30)
• 25:42
  Yeah, that's right.
• 25:45
  Yeah.
• 25:48
  Yeah. Good mantra. Yeah.
• 25:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (51:50)
• 25:54
  I think we're like an hour into this or we're away. So let's talk about Martha. What soon here soon has a new book coming out. So we'll do like a full episode here later on that, but Martha, do you want to like talk about the book, the publishing process, anything there?
• 25:57
  Martha Tatarnic (51:51)
• 26:00
  haha
• 26:03
  Yeah, so the book is coming out on May 5th, so that is just over two months away from the time of recording. So this is my third published book. I would say that the editing process on this book, for a variety of reasons, including just like it's way more research intensive than other books I have done. So the editing process has been
• 26:06
  Loren Richmond Jr (52:35)
• 26:09
  Yeah.
• 26:12
  Martha Tatarnic (52:39)
• 26:15
  a lot longer than I was anticipating or have experienced before. ⁓ But having said that, like I enjoy the editing process overall, even if sometimes things have landed in my email inbox and I have gasped with like the realization of looming deadlines that I wasn't quite anticipating, but ⁓ thankfully I am a morning.
• 26:18
  and love starting my day with a couple solid hours of editing manuscripts. So that part is being okay. Right now I'm in the thick of the part that Loren I really do struggle with and I know that you have your own publishing journey ahead. So I'll be interested to hear how you experience the different components of it but this part I find
• 26:21
  Loren Richmond Jr (53:32)
• 26:24
  Yes. Yeah.
• 26:27
  Martha Tatarnic (53:39)
• 26:30
  the trickiest, which is the part of like reaching out and trying to set up speaking engagements and trying to get people to read the book and review the book and, ⁓ and help me get the word out and have me on their podcasts and like all of those, promotional parts of the job. I
• 26:33
  Loren Richmond Jr (53:48)
• 26:36
  Mmm.
• 26:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:42
  Yeah.
• 26:45
  Martha Tatarnic (54:09)
• 26:48
  would rather not have to do.
• 26:51
  Loren Richmond Jr (54:11)
• 26:54
  Yeah. Yeah, I think we're similar in this, Martha, where I really is like, my, my sort of underlying assumption is like, you should want to know what I think. People don't, and I need to tell them why. So.
• 26:57
  Martha Tatarnic (54:24)
• 27:00
  Yeah?
• 27:03
  Yeah,
• 27:06
  yeah, yeah, that I think that is interesting. Like, I think, you know, we become so consumed with the project, like, we become so consumed about it that we write a whole book about it, like, and it is sufficiently fascinating to us that it engages us for months, if not years at a time getting these ideas together. So
• 27:09
  Loren Richmond Jr (54:47)
• 27:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:15
  Right.
• 27:18
  Yes.
• 27:21
  Martha Tatarnic (54:59)
• 27:24
  It
• 27:27
  is easy just to think. mean, when I like when I finished my first book and was ready to take it to publishers, like I really had it in my head that I was going to present this to the first publisher and have them go, thank you. Like we have been waiting for this. Like we cannot wait to get this out to our our readers, you know.
• 27:30
  Loren Richmond Jr (55:17)
• 27:33
  Yeah, yeah ⁓
• 27:36
  Martha Tatarnic (55:28)
• 27:39
  It's not that straightforward.
• 27:42
  Loren Richmond Jr (55:32)
• 27:45
  Yeah, that's funny. that's funny. can, yeah, I get you though, but I mean, it's, it's, it's sort of like, again, like with a, even with like a Sunday sermon, right? Like you spend so much time rustling with this idea. You're like, this is it.
• 27:48
  Martha Tatarnic (55:50)
• 27:51
  I know. I know.
• 27:54
  Loren Richmond Jr (55:52)
• 27:57
  Like
• 28:00
  you should, and it's, yeah, I think it's, I mean, certainly the, the great thing about a Sunday sermon is you have the opportunity to express more emotion through other communication, your voice and energy rather than just words on a page. But, ⁓ yeah. Yeah.
• 28:03
  Martha Tatarnic (56:13)
• 28:06
  That's
• 28:09
  true. think that over the years, I have tried to guard against those moments where I feel extremely pleased with how clever my Sunday sermon is because people aren't nearly as impressed by my cleverness as I sometimes fool myself into thinking.
• 28:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (56:26)
• 28:15
  Mmm... Mm-hmm.
• 28:18
  Yeah, okay, so for any aspiring writers out there, any kind of a-
• 28:21
  Is it really just simple like for me, it's been just like setting aside time. Like I have a three hour block on Mondays. I just commit to.
• 28:24
  Martha Tatarnic (56:56)
• 28:27
  Yeah, I think everybody's a little different, ⁓ yeah, when I decided I wanted to start writing, I remembered a writer that I liked saying that they wrote for one hour every morning. And like that was how they got books written and published. And I thought I could do that. Like I could do one hour every morning.
• 28:30
  Loren Richmond Jr (56:57)
• 28:33
  to doing this.
• 28:36
  Hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 28:39
  Martha Tatarnic (57:26)
• 28:42
  So that's what works for me. I did have the privilege of a sabbatical last year that allowed me like whole days of being able to sit in libraries and look up little details of, you know, things. ⁓ But generally that has not been my luxury to enjoy over the years of writing. Like I have had to just...
• 28:45
  Loren Richmond Jr (57:45)
• 28:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:51
  Yeah.
• 28:54
  Martha Tatarnic (57:55)
• 28:57
  squeeze it in in the nooks and crannies of life and one hour every morning has been sort of a commitment. So that's what works for me. Yeah.
• 29:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (58:03)
• 29:03
  Yeah.
• 29:06
  Well,
• 29:09
  I'm looking forward to reading the book and Berlin. I'm going to try to get my daughter to read it because she's been like studying. Like that sort of middle late, late middle ages in middle school. And I'm like, Hey, this is kind of tracks with, I mean, it's, it's a sort of the same roughly time span, right?
• 29:12
  Martha Tatarnic (58:26)
• 29:15
  Yeah, I mean, my daughter tells me that Anne Boleyn and Joan of Arc are the two most popular historical figures for the TikTok generation. yeah. So, you know, I don't know what research she's basing that on, but like, I think anecdotally, she's onto something. So I'll be interested to hear whether your daughter is interested in this.
• 29:18
  Loren Richmond Jr (58:36)
• 29:21
  Really? Okay, wow.
• 29:24
  That's fascinating. Well, yeah, that is interesting. Well, we'll see. So, Martha, anything else? Anything else? I hope this is helpful for listeners.
• 29:27
  Martha Tatarnic (59:00)
• 29:30
  Yeah, I mean, I am looking forward to you getting the advance copy, Loren, and being able to talk about it in a more fulsome way. But it feels like the timing is really good on this book. So for example, this year, 2026, is the 50th anniversary of the ordination of women in the Anglican Church of Canada.
• 29:33
  Loren Richmond Jr (59:26)
• 29:36
  Okay,
• 29:39
  yeah.
• 29:42
  Martha Tatarnic (59:28)
• 29:45
  And so I do have at least one speaking engagement on the calendar ⁓ that is tied to that celebration in a meaningful way. Because really, what I'm doing in this book, it's not a book that's written specifically for a Christian audience. It is written for a general audience. Anne Boleyn is interesting to lots of people. But
• 29:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (59:53)
• 29:51
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 29:54
  Martha Tatarnic (59:58)
• 29:57
  ⁓ of like a real exploration of her life does ⁓ challenge the idea that the Anglican Church and the Reformation in general was primarily the work of men. That here's one ⁓ woman who had enormous influence and impact in shaping.
• 30:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:00:18)
• 30:03
  here.
• 30:06
  Martha Tatarnic (1:00:27)
• 30:09
  the Reformation and she was influenced by a variety of other women who also had an impact in how the Reformation got shaped. ⁓ And you know, that's a pretty compelling, ⁓ like, reclaiming of history, I think, at this juncture. So I'm hoping that people are going to find that meaningful as, like, we're celebrating
• 30:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:00:51)
• 30:15
  Sure. Yeah.
• 30:18
  Martha Tatarnic (1:00:57)
• 30:21
  women's leadership in our church, I hope that they're going to find it meaningful to realize that ⁓ the history of our church ⁓ is maybe a lot more colorful and nuanced than we might have thought.
• 30:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:01:12)
• 30:27
  Yeah. I mean, I'm always obsessed with like understanding where ideas came from and how those ideas have played out over history. And that's, that's one of the things that really excites me about this is getting like a deep dive into that, that world and what happened in that context. So, right. Right.
• 30:30
  Martha Tatarnic (1:01:30)
• 30:33
  Yeah, why she was talked about the way that she was talked about, why she's being talked
• 30:36
  about in the ways that she's been talked about since. And yeah, it's not just that we really like salacious soap opera-esque stories of, you know, women who misbehave and get their comeuppance. ⁓ It's that actually like her religious convictions were tied to a lot of the, ⁓ of the
• 30:39
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:01:38)
• 30:42
  Right.
• 30:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:48
  Martha Tatarnic (1:01:59)
• 30:51
  criticism that got lobbied at her. ⁓ But then over the years, like her religious beliefs have kind of dropped off the radar of of what was important about her and all that is left is like the labels and the the slandering. You know, there were a lot of people who had a lot invested in slandering a Protestant woman.
• 30:54
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:02:09)
• 30:57
  Hmm.
• 31:00
  Mmm.
• 31:03
  Yeah.
• 31:06
  Yeah, almost like if... I'm sure there's some parallels we could draw. Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting a copy of the book and it's available for pre-order right now, right?
• 31:09
  Martha Tatarnic (1:02:31)
• 31:12
  Yeah.
• 31:15
  It is available for
• 31:18
  pre-order ⁓ through church publishing, course through Amazon in Canada. can pre-order it through Chapters Indigo. You can talk to your local bookseller about ordering it in. So lots of options. Yeah.
• 31:21
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:02:55)
• 31:24
  Okay. Yeah.
• 31:27
  Well, I'm going to release, we'll make sure to get this released here soon so folks can get it. Uh, what we're at the end of. Yeah, we're at the end of February. So yeah, for sure. You'll have a couple of months before even to, you'll have a couple of months to get it ramped up. Cause then I'll ship right the fifth, right? May 5th. Um, again, this is me learning about publishing process here in real time. So, um,
• 31:30
  Martha Tatarnic (1:03:15)
• 31:33
  Yeah, me first.
• 31:36
  Yeah, well, you're you're
• 31:39
  going to be on a learning curve ahead.
• 31:42
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:03:24)
• 31:45
  Yeah.
• 31:48
  Well, should we wrap it up with this? Anything else you want to... We've been going here for a good long time and I hope...
• 31:51
  Martha Tatarnic (1:03:33)
• 31:54
  Yeah, this is being
• 31:57
  delightful. think that, you know, having a little watershed for all of the things that we just sort of lightly text about here and there, being able to talk through in a more fulsome way, it's really interesting. And I think it's really interesting. ⁓ Like our countries are such close neighbors and share so much in common culturally, but also like
• 32:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:03:42)
• 32:03
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 32:06
  Martha Tatarnic (1:04:01)
• 32:09
  we're sort of worlds away from each other. It's like really interesting to hear the different perspectives and experiences.
• 32:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:04:04)
• 32:15
  yeah.
• 32:18
  Yeah. Yeah, that is, I mean, that's just a sort of depressing way to say it, but I think it's, it's not inaccurate. So, ⁓ Martha and I are doing here what we can to, to build up some neighborliness amongst our two nations. ⁓ yeah.
• 32:21
  Martha Tatarnic (1:04:24)
• 32:24
  Yeah.
• 32:27
  Keep that
• 32:30
  neighborliness going.
• 32:33
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:04:30)
• 32:36
  keep that neighborliness going. if you're in Canada listening, ⁓
• 32:39
  I have no qualms about saying I'm sorry. So I think this is one thing that I've tried to recognize that I won't try to get too much into this again, but I communal repentance, that's certainly something that's been emphasized in the United States around issues of racism and prejudice is this idea of like communal repentance. And rather than being like, I didn't vote for him or I didn't have that opinion. Like we can.
• 32:42
  Martha Tatarnic (1:04:53)
• 32:45
  Hmm.
• 32:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:05:06)
• 32:51
  who can repent regardless so yeah like I'm sorry
• 32:54
  Martha Tatarnic (1:05:08)
• 32:57
  Yeah.
• 33:00
  Yeah. Honestly, like it, that's not nothing. Like, I think that one of the pieces that has been hard for us in Canada is feeling like, we thought that we had this really important friendship between our two countries and just the lack of concern and apology from ⁓
• 33:03
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:05:29)
• 33:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:09
  Martha Tatarnic (1:05:36)
• 33:12
  from those who don't support that agenda of coming after Canada has been surprising. Like we've been surprised by the silence in a lot of ways. yeah, just saying like we actually care about you and about this and about the friendship. It matters.
• 33:15
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:05:40)
• 33:18
  Yeah.
• 33:21
  Yeah.
• 33:24
  Yeah, yeah. Well, Martha, it's always great to talk to you. We'll leave each other with a word of peace. And I certainly hope in this world we're in, like, we can share God's peace with you and with one another. So may God's peace be with you.
• 33:27
  Martha Tatarnic (1:06:09)
• 33:30
  Yeah.
• 33:33
  May God's peace be with you too, Loren, and with all of our listeners.
• 33:36
  Loren Richmond Jr (1:06:16)
• 33:39
  Alright.
• 33:42
  Let's see if I can figure this out.
• 33:45
  Okay.