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Astronomical DNA Match Places Bryan Kohberger Inside Murder House · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
0:12
Speaker 2: In the last hours a bombshell in the state's case
0:16
Speaker 2: against Quadruple's sleigh defendant Brian Coburger, charged in the incredibly
0:23
Speaker 2: brutal murders of four vibrant young college students in Idaho,
0:33
Speaker 2: we learn a statistical match unlike any I've ever seen,
0:37
Speaker 2: has been made from Brian Coburger to the bloody knife.
0:43
Speaker 2: DNA on the knife sheath found at the murder scene,
0:50
Speaker 2: not necessarily blood. We don't know where the DNA came from.
0:55
Speaker 2: Was it touch DNA? Was it blood? Was it from sweat?
0:59
Speaker 2: Idea know that is that epofilial sales? I don't know,
1:03
Speaker 2: but I know that there is DNA on a knife
1:06
Speaker 2: sheath found at the crime scene. Not just at the
1:11
Speaker 2: crime scene where the four students were slaughtered as they
1:14
Speaker 2: were getting ready for bed in their bed, some of them.
1:18
Speaker 2: But it's found in the bedroom of Mattie Mogan, and
1:22
Speaker 2: not just in her bedroom, but partially under her body
1:28
Speaker 2: and partially under her comforter, her bedspread.
1:33
Speaker 1: What does it mean?
1:37
Speaker 2: We also know this DNA match was obtained through a
1:41
Speaker 2: fairly boutique TESK called str Short tandem repeat analysis has
1:47
Speaker 2: been used forever. What does this mean for the prosecution?
1:53
Speaker 2: And Nancy Grace, thanks for being with me and joining me.
1:56
Speaker 2: Two experts in their fields, first of all, Joseph's Morgan,
2:00
Speaker 2: Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, who has an incredible criminal
2:06
Speaker 2: justice department, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon
2:11
Speaker 2: and host of a hit series Body Bags with Joseph
2:14
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan also with me, renowned detective who has investigated
2:21
Speaker 2: over three hundred homicides, Director of the Cole Case Foundation.
2:26
Speaker 2: You can find him on YouTube at his channel on
2:30
Speaker 2: the interview room. Chris McDonough, gentlemen, thank you for being
2:34
Speaker 2: with us. Joe Scott just jump in. This is a
2:37
Speaker 2: match that is five point three sevenctillion times likely to
2:45
Speaker 2: be from Brian Cooberger than any other person on the planet.
2:49
Speaker 1: Joe Scott.
2:50
Speaker 2: Five point three seven octillion, that's twenty seven zeros. That's
2:55
Speaker 2: more people than live on the planet right now or
2:58
Speaker 2: that have ever lived on planet Earth that we know.
3:02
Speaker 3: Of astronomical number. And when you compare that to and
3:08
Speaker 3: what this is the probability that it could be anybody
3:11
Speaker 3: other than Brian Coberger is what the prosecution is saying
3:17
Speaker 3: with this test that they have revealed, and that's pretty
3:19
Speaker 3: amazing because this is I don't know, Nancy, I think
3:23
Speaker 3: that this is one of the most robust things that
3:25
Speaker 3: has dropped in the news cycle since all of us
3:28
Speaker 3: started so long ago. That we really have something to
3:32
Speaker 3: hang our hat on here just from a mathematical and
3:34
Speaker 3: scientific standpoint. And you know what's really cool about all
3:38
Speaker 3: of this, Nancy, they played this really close to the vest.
3:41
Speaker 3: And when we first got that indication that DNA, some
3:47
Speaker 3: type of DNA as you framed it, had been left
3:50
Speaker 3: on that snap for this knife, you know, we knew
3:55
Speaker 3: that something was up at that point in time, and
3:58
Speaker 3: we didn't We don't really know what the nature of
4:00
Speaker 3: that is. You had mentioned epithelial skill skin cells, which
4:04
Speaker 3: is what we get DNA touch DNA from, which is
4:07
Speaker 3: kind of a partial strand we don't know if it's
4:10
Speaker 3: a wet sample. We don't really know. But what they did,
4:13
Speaker 3: and this is the beauty of it, is that they
4:16
Speaker 3: really they identified it, they developed a profile off of that,
4:21
Speaker 3: and then they compared it to what they knew at
4:25
Speaker 3: the home in Pennsylvania. Remember when they went back to
4:27
Speaker 3: the trash and they did the familial DNA with they
4:30
Speaker 3: think his dad, probably through a genealogical match. Then they
4:34
Speaker 3: looped Nancy all the way back around to him. So
4:38
Speaker 3: they completed the circle, haven't they. You know, from just
4:41
Speaker 3: a legal standpoint, on just a.
4:43
Speaker 2: Moment, guys, you're hearing Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forenasics speaking
4:48
Speaker 2: and as you all know, all you legal legals, Coburger's
4:53
Speaker 2: father flew out to Washington State University, which is, you know,
4:57
Speaker 2: ten minutes away from the murders, even though it's an
5:01
Speaker 2: idahost just across the state line, to drive Coburger home
5:06
Speaker 2: for Thanksgiving break. We believe he was staked out the
5:11
Speaker 2: whole time. When Coburger gets home to his parents' home
5:15
Speaker 2: in the Poconos, they're being watched and at some point
5:22
Speaker 2: police go and retrieve trash abandoned trash, which is completely constitutional.
5:28
Speaker 2: Once you throw something out, anybody can get it, including
5:31
Speaker 2: the police. And off of that trash, the police identified
5:37
Speaker 2: DNA from the father, Coburger's father, and that DNA showed
5:43
Speaker 2: that only the biological son of that DNA donor could
5:49
Speaker 2: be the donor on the knife sheath. Only the biological
5:55
Speaker 2: son of Coburger's father could be the donor of the
6:01
Speaker 2: DNA on the knife sheath at the murder scene.
6:06
Speaker 1: It had to be.
6:09
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger because he's the only bio son. Once they
6:13
Speaker 2: had that, you just heard Joe Scott Morgan say, they
6:16
Speaker 2: circle back. What does he mean by that? Once they
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Speaker 2: identified Coburger through his father's DNA, after the arrest, I
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Speaker 2: pursue it to warrant.
6:27
Speaker 1: They obtain a.
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Speaker 2: Buckle or buckle swab, which is simply a brush of
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Speaker 2: cotton like a Q tip in your cheek, and that's
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Speaker 2: where they get this one in five point three seven
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Speaker 2: octillion likelihood that it is Coburger. This it's not just
6:48
Speaker 2: the match with the father taken from the trash. They
6:52
Speaker 2: circle back, as Joe Scott Morgan put it, and get
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Speaker 2: his Coburger's DNA from his and it's an incredible astronomical match.
7:05
Speaker 2: Now you mentioned Joe Scott, have you carry on where
7:09
Speaker 2: you left off? But you mentioned a wet sample if
7:13
Speaker 2: you could explain what you mean by a wet sample
7:16
Speaker 2: of epthelial DNA?
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Speaker 3: All right, So when we're thinking about a wet sample
7:22
Speaker 3: of you know, one of the things that comes to mind,
7:24
Speaker 3: for instance, is like a deposition or a deposit of
7:29
Speaker 3: say like a blood droplet. And we're not talking about
7:31
Speaker 3: blood droplets that may have come from the from the victims,
7:35
Speaker 3: let's put that to the side. We're talking about something
7:38
Speaker 3: that may have been generated by him, all right, by
7:41
Speaker 3: the accused, by coburger. So we have blood, we have saliva,
7:48
Speaker 3: and also we have semen about sweat potentially yes, possibly
7:55
Speaker 3: did you say you wait? Repeat that again?
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Speaker 2: Oh, sweat perspiration, sweat perspiration bo for lack of a
8:03
Speaker 2: better term.
8:05
Speaker 3: Right, and you can get dropped with some sweat that
8:07
Speaker 3: would also contain these DNA strands in them as well.
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Speaker 2: And you know when I haven't thought, I have to
8:14
Speaker 2: get it out right then or it's gone forever. You
8:16
Speaker 2: know what this reminds me of? And I don't know
8:18
Speaker 2: what happened to Chris mcdonnough. I've never known him. He's
8:23
Speaker 2: uncharacteristically silent here. But do you guys remember making a murderer,
8:30
Speaker 2: Stephen Avery, who totally committed murder by the way he
8:33
Speaker 2: murdered Teresa Hallback. I don't care what anybody says. Do
8:37
Speaker 2: you remember his DNA was found on multiple places on
8:42
Speaker 2: her car that he had hidden in his backyard. With
8:45
Speaker 2: the trees and stuff limbs on top of it. His DNA,
8:50
Speaker 2: as I recall, Jackie, will you check, was found on
8:53
Speaker 2: the ignition steering wheel in different parts of her car.
8:57
Speaker 2: Can't you just imagine him after he's raped her and
9:01
Speaker 2: murdered her and burned her in a fire pit in
9:04
Speaker 2: the backyard. Friends and relatives say they saw him stirring
9:07
Speaker 2: a fire pit until the early morning hour was a
9:09
Speaker 2: bonfire and the studs offered daisy fiuents jeans were found
9:16
Speaker 2: in that bonfire, by the way, they Can't you just
9:19
Speaker 2: imagine him trying to high cover his tracks, cranking up
9:23
Speaker 2: her car and moving it to the back end of
9:27
Speaker 2: his salvage yard, sweating, hunched over the wheel, thinking how
9:33
Speaker 2: the hell am I going to get rid of this car?
9:36
Speaker 2: And sweating and that sweat that DNA was linked to him.
9:43
Speaker 2: Why else would he be in her car? Same thing here, sweat.
9:48
Speaker 2: That's just an example, I thought, I Joe Scott.
9:51
Speaker 3: I mean, well, yeah, and I have to believe Nancy
9:55
Speaker 3: that you know with this attack, you're I think you're
9:58
Speaker 3: right on the money. Is this is going to be
10:00
Speaker 3: a fevered event. And what I mean by that is
10:03
Speaker 3: that when all of a sudden done and we'd learn
10:06
Speaker 3: everything that happened tragically.
10:09
Speaker 2: Oh ch and key Shine could get Jackie on the
10:13
Speaker 2: key and key Chine. So he's sweating as he's trying
10:16
Speaker 2: to crank that car up. And now when you said
10:19
Speaker 2: a favorite event McDonald, Chris mcdonad, did you hear that
10:23
Speaker 2: a favored event is the way Joe Scott said it
10:27
Speaker 2: a frenzy, a hysteria, a murderous hysteria. And you know,
10:31
Speaker 2: he was sweating, and I wonder if that is the
10:35
Speaker 2: DNA taking off the night that our epiphilial.
10:39
Speaker 4: Skin sets. Nancy did dovetail into what doctor Shane.
10:44
Speaker 5: Your point there is, you know we I think we
10:48
Speaker 5: all remember that this guy is so methodical. Yeah, and
10:54
Speaker 5: as he goes into this situation, it's a very controlled
10:57
Speaker 5: emotional event for him initially and as these guys get
11:03
Speaker 5: into this and covert specifically, if he's our guy, which
11:07
Speaker 5: it sounds like he is now, I mean that you're
11:10
Speaker 5: going to have to go to another world to try
11:13
Speaker 5: to find a DNA man.
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Speaker 6: That's another planet, yeah, literally, and you know, talk about
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Speaker 6: a force multiplier, and so I can I can envision
11:24
Speaker 6: this guy.
11:25
Speaker 4: It's it's so personal for him. Remember we talked earlier,
11:30
Speaker 4: all of us about you know, this is a a
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Speaker 4: very you know, thought out crime and the fact that
11:39
Speaker 4: he was you know, studying you know, criminology, the fact
11:42
Speaker 4: that he had mentors through his professor, and the mandatory
11:47
Speaker 4: reading type of books. He was trying to model himself after,
11:53
Speaker 4: you know, one of these individuals who you know, serial killer,
11:56
Speaker 4: you know, potential in the making year and then to
12:00
Speaker 4: find this mistake is a crushing blow to him. But
12:08
Speaker 4: at the same time, during the commission of this act,
12:13
Speaker 4: the crime, I think he may have even I was
12:17
Speaker 4: talking to doctor Gary Ricado, and Gary thought it did
12:21
Speaker 4: he take his gloves off, and that that in of
12:25
Speaker 4: itself was a mistake because he had to make it
12:29
Speaker 4: more personal, you know, he had to, he had to
12:32
Speaker 4: make it, you know, so brutal, so traumatic for the
12:37
Speaker 4: victims that brought him this you know, power and control feeling.
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Speaker 3: And then to.
12:46
Speaker 4: Look back now and realize, you know, the significance of
12:50
Speaker 4: the minutious snap DNA match. I just think it's fascinating
12:57
Speaker 4: that they nailed him on this thing with that so far,
13:02
Speaker 4: and you know what's going through his head, what's going
13:05
Speaker 4: through his mind?
13:06
Speaker 2: I can tell you what's going through his head? Why
13:08
Speaker 2: the hell did I leave that knife sheet at the
13:09
Speaker 2: murder scene? That's what's going through his head. And I
13:12
Speaker 2: still wish I could have been in that car, that
13:14
Speaker 2: white Elantros. He's taking as long cecut as route, which
13:18
Speaker 2: you know, guys, I drove and.
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Speaker 1: I had to practically stop the car.
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Speaker 2: Jackie, Remember I tell you had to stop the car
13:25
Speaker 2: because it was so dark, And I mean, I've still
13:28
Speaker 2: got twenty twenty and twenty eighteen right here. But when
13:31
Speaker 2: I would be met on a two lane and there
13:35
Speaker 2: were a lot of uh well there weren't a lot
13:38
Speaker 2: of cars at all, but Simmy's eighteen wheelers would be
13:42
Speaker 2: coming that way, coming toward me, I would have to
13:44
Speaker 2: practically pull off the road because it was so dark
13:48
Speaker 2: and all I could see were their lights coming right
13:50
Speaker 2: at our car. Just wonder where along that circuitus route
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Speaker 2: he realized.
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Speaker 1: Oh, hell, where's the knife.
14:00
Speaker 2: I'm betting us when he got rid of the knife.
14:17
Speaker 1: Time stories with me. It'sy grace.
14:21
Speaker 2: I don't know when it hit him that he left
14:22
Speaker 2: the knife sheath, But I want to circle back on
14:25
Speaker 2: something that Chris mcdone I just said, guys, you can
14:27
Speaker 2: find Chris on the interview room. That's where I found him,
14:30
Speaker 2: and that was a great day for me. On YouTube,
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, Chris just brought up a really good point gloves,
14:40
Speaker 2: because you know, this guy Coburger.
14:44
Speaker 1: Had everything planned out, and you.
14:47
Speaker 2: Know what, just watching his colleague on her home security system,
14:52
Speaker 2: watching her watch TV and do the dishes or whatever else,
14:56
Speaker 2: walk around half naked, that just wasn't doing it for
14:59
Speaker 2: him anymore. So it leads to these murders. You know
15:03
Speaker 2: he planned it out, Joe Scott. If he wore gloves,
15:09
Speaker 2: that least begs the question how did he leave DNA
15:11
Speaker 2: on the knife sheath?
15:12
Speaker 1: Well, how about all the other times.
15:14
Speaker 2: He had opened up the knife sheath And I understand
15:19
Speaker 2: it was on the button the snap where you shut
15:24
Speaker 2: the knife.
15:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's adjacent to the snap. And look if
15:29
Speaker 3: he's and again this is all speculation my part, but
15:32
Speaker 3: if he's sitting there fantasizing about this and he's thinking
15:36
Speaker 3: about one thing to do with any kind of weapon.
15:39
Speaker 2: Oh dear lad, he's fantasizing about it while he's holding
15:42
Speaker 2: the knife.
15:42
Speaker 1: It could be sperm. Why did you put that thought
15:45
Speaker 1: in my head?
15:46
Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't my intention. You went there, I didn't
15:49
Speaker 3: go there.
15:49
Speaker 2: I'm following the truth and I don't care what it
15:52
Speaker 2: is or where it leads me.
15:53
Speaker 3: My thought is he's practicing with it because it goes
15:57
Speaker 3: to muscle memory. He's fantasizing about this flipping. If he's
16:01
Speaker 3: slipping that class on their nancy, you'll have multiple touches.
16:05
Speaker 3: Then you get into the gloves, and then you put
16:08
Speaker 3: the gloves on. Maybe you tried it with the gloves,
16:10
Speaker 3: who knows, and you know the gloves. If they ever
16:13
Speaker 3: recover those again, that would be great sourcing because what
16:16
Speaker 3: happens with latex gloves. I can tell you from a
16:19
Speaker 3: person that you're speaking to right now that has spent
16:22
Speaker 3: literally thousands upon thousands of hours wearing Latex gloves. They're
16:27
Speaker 3: filled with your sweat as well.
16:30
Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's a really good points.
16:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you go back to that and you really
16:37
Speaker 3: think about if he took those gloves off in the
16:39
Speaker 3: commission of this crime, his hands would just be the
16:45
Speaker 3: contact rice that you would leave behind. Yeah, it would
16:48
Speaker 3: be because everybody knows what plastic rubber feels like. You know,
16:52
Speaker 3: if you're in a high humid it creates this really
16:56
Speaker 3: elevated level of humidity contained within that vironment. You're dripping
17:01
Speaker 3: with the sweat. That's the that's the pause for deposition.
17:04
Speaker 3: But I think the biggest thing for me, Nancy, is
17:06
Speaker 3: the fact that you know, you mentioned that the sheaf
17:09
Speaker 3: was found beneath the comforter and adjacent to this child
17:11
Speaker 3: leg in the bed. This almost has a dramatic thought
17:17
Speaker 3: to it, you know, where he's in the bed, And Nancy,
17:20
Speaker 3: I still hold, as I've held all these months, that
17:23
Speaker 3: he crawled into the bed with them. That's the only
17:25
Speaker 3: way I think you could probably facilitate this where he
17:29
Speaker 3: is on top of these girls attacking them, and it's
17:32
Speaker 3: a real control kind of event going on if he
17:35
Speaker 3: did this where he's stabbing both of them, because how
17:38
Speaker 3: do you how do you access both of them? They're
17:41
Speaker 3: adjacent to one another in the same bed. He's into bed,
17:44
Speaker 3: he's you know, he's in full fever at this point
17:47
Speaker 3: in time. He leaves the sheep behind.
17:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, And if that's the if that's theory you know,
17:55
Speaker 4: plays out here at some point, then we need to
17:59
Speaker 4: really be thinking about how far his fantasies were going
18:04
Speaker 4: in relationship to you know, is there a higher sexual
18:08
Speaker 4: component to this.
18:10
Speaker 1: Okay, can you just way straightforward? What are you trying
18:12
Speaker 1: to say, Chris min Donna?
18:15
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, if if he's this, if Coberger goes
18:20
Speaker 4: under those sheets for an example that we're talking about
18:23
Speaker 4: here as a hypothetical, then he has played this out
18:29
Speaker 4: in his mind, you know, almost like you know, Ted
18:33
Speaker 4: Bundy or BTK. You know, they would sketch things out
18:37
Speaker 4: and then of course when the fantasy you know, would
18:40
Speaker 4: be executed in terms of you know, put into motion,
18:44
Speaker 4: it didn't live up to what they thought it would be.
18:48
Speaker 4: And so if this is a situation where Coberger takes
18:53
Speaker 4: the time, you know, to to kill the victim and
18:56
Speaker 4: then you'll get under the sheets or something to that
19:00
Speaker 4: effect that you know Doc is you know thinking through here,
19:04
Speaker 4: then he has really gone into a deeper level of fantasy.
19:11
Speaker 4: And so I that's where the electronics is going to
19:14
Speaker 4: tell us a lot about you know, the depth of
19:19
Speaker 4: you know, uh, sexual content potentially that they may have
19:26
Speaker 4: because he is living through that vicariously. And then now
19:31
Speaker 4: the real thing comes along and it goes down, but
19:35
Speaker 4: it wasn't quite what he had anticipated, and so they
19:41
Speaker 4: try to get closer post mortem potentially to the victim
19:46
Speaker 4: to bring that you know, that thrill back, for lack
19:50
Speaker 4: of a better term, and that puts him in a
19:52
Speaker 4: whole different category of, you know, being very very dangerous
19:59
Speaker 4: had he not been captured.
20:02
Speaker 2: Just thinking through everything you're saying, and I'm thinking back
20:05
Speaker 2: to the DNA, which we've just learned is a one
20:09
Speaker 2: and a five point thirty seven optilian likelihood. Does anybody
20:15
Speaker 2: but Kyburger, which has Joe Scott Morgan and Chris McDonough
20:20
Speaker 2: pointed out, I guess you'd have to go to another
20:22
Speaker 2: planet to find somebody else that might have that match.
20:25
Speaker 2: What type of DNA is it? Is it blood? Is
20:29
Speaker 2: it sweat? Is it epithelial? Which is the skin transfer
20:33
Speaker 2: that the skin cells that you can't even see, that
20:35
Speaker 2: you leave behind every time you touch anything. And of
20:38
Speaker 2: course I believe epithelial cells can be transmitted through bodily
20:43
Speaker 2: fluid such as urine, and I assume sweat as well.
20:48
Speaker 1: Just got Morgan.
20:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, And what happens is those cells literally slough off
20:54
Speaker 3: and they'll commingle with you know, as you mentioned, these
20:58
Speaker 3: other fluids in the body, and they can be transferred
21:01
Speaker 3: over mean see, I'd like to interject one thing here
21:05
Speaker 3: that has been kind of I don't know, it's been
21:10
Speaker 3: needling me all along. One of the themes that has
21:13
Speaker 3: run through this whole case is this idea to access
21:18
Speaker 3: to these four victims in that house, and people have
21:23
Speaker 3: made a lot Well, he could have come into the
21:25
Speaker 3: house before, and I always say the parties and all
21:27
Speaker 3: that stuff, And I really hope that within the environment
21:32
Speaker 3: of that home that the investigators have gone into kind
21:38
Speaker 3: of hidden spaces like closets and really done sampling areas
21:43
Speaker 3: in there for any kind of DNA foreign DNA that
21:46
Speaker 3: may have been in there, particularly with closets, because if
21:51
Speaker 3: the perpetrator in this case was a peeper, was an observer,
21:56
Speaker 3: they may have been bold enough to go into those
21:58
Speaker 3: areas in order to watch. We've heard about electronics that
22:02
Speaker 3: Chris mentioned just a second ago to surveil the area.
22:04
Speaker 3: But what just what is an individual has gone into
22:09
Speaker 3: a closet, They've sat in there, They've had sexual fantasies
22:12
Speaker 3: in that closet. Maybe they're what referred to as panty snippers,
22:15
Speaker 3: those sorts of people, and they're leaving or taking away
22:19
Speaker 3: with them something and then all of a sudden, it's
22:22
Speaker 3: just not enough. Any longer and they have to kick
22:25
Speaker 3: it up to the next level. I hope that they've
22:26
Speaker 3: searched those areas for potential deposition in DNA.
22:43
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
22:46
Speaker 2: You know what, I also wonder in that vein Joe
22:49
Speaker 2: Scott and Chris McDonald, when we have heard that there
22:55
Speaker 2: is evidence the defendant Brian Kiberger had been at the
22:59
Speaker 2: crime scene in the past, had driven by it scouted.
23:02
Speaker 2: I believe the number eleven times was thrown out. Where
23:05
Speaker 2: was he was he sitting in his car? Had he
23:08
Speaker 2: gotten out of his car? Does the cell phone data
23:11
Speaker 2: show that he was closer to.
23:13
Speaker 1: The home in the home.
23:15
Speaker 2: I'm not buying into the fact that he had been
23:16
Speaker 2: in the home prior to the murders.
23:20
Speaker 1: Or that he had not.
23:22
Speaker 2: I need to know more evidence to determine that, but
23:24
Speaker 2: there's no doubt in my mind he had spied on
23:27
Speaker 2: them intensely. If his cell phone is showing that he
23:32
Speaker 2: was there up to at least eleven times, obviously he
23:37
Speaker 2: was not secreting his cell phone away or turning it
23:41
Speaker 2: off or putting in an airplane mode as we believe
23:44
Speaker 2: he did the night of the murders. How close did
23:46
Speaker 2: he get to the home on those eleven occasions. What
23:49
Speaker 2: about it, Chris mcdonnough.
23:52
Speaker 4: You know the point that doctors made the fact that
23:57
Speaker 4: he may have been thinking about getting into that house
24:01
Speaker 4: and potentially, you know, hopefully the authorities had checked, you know,
24:06
Speaker 4: those areas that he you know, brought out. But I
24:10
Speaker 4: do believe that just the surveillance, the closeness to that house,
24:16
Speaker 4: he would try to get as close as he could
24:19
Speaker 4: possibly get. I mean, and that may just be sitting
24:23
Speaker 4: in the back in that upper area, Nancy, where you
24:25
Speaker 4: where you hung out and you felt that environment. You know.
24:31
Speaker 4: When I stood back there, I was struck by how
24:34
Speaker 4: close it was to those back windows of the girl's
24:39
Speaker 4: rooms and the fact that he potentially could have seen
24:44
Speaker 4: into the residents at various times if they would have
24:47
Speaker 4: left the blinds open, or if they'd just come walking
24:50
Speaker 4: out onto the back patio. That in of itself, like
24:55
Speaker 4: a hunter, brings a thrill that is indescribable when the
25:03
Speaker 4: fantasy is playing out that the next step is you're
25:07
Speaker 4: going to be mine. And so if we think about
25:12
Speaker 4: you know, when somebody goes out and buys a tag
25:15
Speaker 4: during hunting season, they go out and they sit in
25:18
Speaker 4: a tree. You know, they mark their territory and they
25:22
Speaker 4: go through this whole process of preparation and then the
25:28
Speaker 4: event comes, i e. It's hunting season. This is the
25:32
Speaker 4: feeling he was going through. And every time he saw
25:37
Speaker 4: one of those victims either come outside or through those windows,
25:42
Speaker 4: then the thrill increased itself. And you know, he physically
25:49
Speaker 4: started to go through this. You know, blood pressure raises,
25:53
Speaker 4: his pupils dilate, they go through this process, and so
25:58
Speaker 4: I think he could try to get as is possible
26:01
Speaker 4: to bring that feeling on.
26:04
Speaker 2: And also, do you guys, both of you or either
26:07
Speaker 2: of you agree that each time he most likely became bolder,
26:12
Speaker 2: Like first was sitting in the car would dry by
26:15
Speaker 2: then he'd part behind it where you can look directly
26:17
Speaker 2: into their windows from above. I mean we weren't over
26:21
Speaker 2: what forty feet away from their window looking right in.
26:28
Speaker 2: And then the next time did he get out and
26:30
Speaker 2: look in the window directly in the windows so close
26:32
Speaker 2: he could touch it. Did he try to, you know,
26:38
Speaker 2: initiate conversation with him, like ringing the doorbell and go,
26:41
Speaker 2: hey is this Jackie's house?
26:44
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's not, okay, sorry?
26:47
Speaker 2: Just what did he do in his links to become
26:50
Speaker 2: familiar with the layout of that home or to get
26:53
Speaker 2: closer to the victims.
26:55
Speaker 1: Jump in, guys, I got to.
26:57
Speaker 3: Say, Nancy, relative to this home, out of all the
27:01
Speaker 3: home side scenes that I worked as an EMMY investigator
27:05
Speaker 3: corner investigator, I got to tell you this rank's right
27:08
Speaker 3: up there with just the floor plane itself is being
27:13
Speaker 3: very complicated that if you did not have knowledge of
27:16
Speaker 3: it product to arrival, you'd be bumping into yourself in
27:19
Speaker 3: this place. Because the way the staircase is set up,
27:23
Speaker 3: and you know, from what I understand, if I remember correctly,
27:26
Speaker 3: that top floor, the very top floor where those two
27:30
Speaker 3: young ladies were found, Nancy, that was an add on.
27:33
Speaker 3: That's something that was not part of the original architecture
27:36
Speaker 3: of that structure. It's something that was added on years later.
27:39
Speaker 3: So this thing is kind of piecemeal. I'm college professor.
27:42
Speaker 3: There's lots of houses and college towns that are like this.
27:45
Speaker 3: But it would seem that you would have to have
27:48
Speaker 3: a familiarity with the interior house. And I have not
27:52
Speaker 3: physically been there, but just that I know you guys have.
27:55
Speaker 3: But in that open area leading out of those sliders
27:58
Speaker 3: out there a perfect place for a hide because you've
28:02
Speaker 3: got a tree line back there. From what I can see,
28:05
Speaker 3: when those lights are in, that house looks like it's
28:07
Speaker 3: on fire. You can see everything through those windows. You
28:10
Speaker 3: can sit out in those bushes all you want and
28:12
Speaker 3: watch everything.
28:13
Speaker 1: I remember the cinder block. I think McDonough if you
28:16
Speaker 1: were the first one to notice that.
28:18
Speaker 2: Center block stat outside the bottom window where you could
28:21
Speaker 2: step up and really look.
28:23
Speaker 1: In very easily.
28:25
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it could also been used as a bench.
28:28
Speaker 4: I mean that struck That struck us. I think we
28:31
Speaker 4: would all agree, you know, really, audit just didn't look right.
28:34
Speaker 4: It was out of place underneath you know that window there. Now,
28:39
Speaker 4: whether it's in player or not, right, we'll we'll have
28:41
Speaker 4: to wait to see. But those are the type of
28:44
Speaker 4: things that he would have He probably would have you
28:48
Speaker 4: put into motion. He would have taken the time to
28:51
Speaker 4: sit on that block for hours. Remember, this guy's a
28:55
Speaker 4: night a night out. He's operating in the dark, because that,
29:00
Speaker 4: you know, goes back towards his personality as well, where
29:05
Speaker 4: you know, once you put him in the light, there're nothing.
29:08
Speaker 2: How do you how the hey do you think he
29:10
Speaker 2: left that sheath behind? As methodical as he was in
29:14
Speaker 2: the planning.
29:15
Speaker 1: What happened.
29:17
Speaker 4: Well, you know, as Joe is talking about, you know,
29:19
Speaker 4: as we discussed this, that that knife sheath, it was
29:25
Speaker 4: his you know downfall here in terms of through the
29:28
Speaker 4: whole process. I do find it interesting though, if in
29:32
Speaker 4: fact that one of the victims was on top of it,
29:36
Speaker 4: or it was I know it's to the side of
29:39
Speaker 4: top of it. She was on top of it.
29:42
Speaker 2: Jackie the other day was talking about how many times
29:44
Speaker 2: she's lost herself in her company under a pillow and
29:50
Speaker 2: you have to dig through everything to find it. Hey,
29:53
Speaker 2: I guarantee you in the dark he left that room
29:54
Speaker 2: and had no idea that he left that sheath behind.
29:59
Speaker 3: It was a stu It's part and parcel of a
30:01
Speaker 3: frenzied event. You know, you're the you know, the sheep
30:04
Speaker 3: is merely a conveyance that's cold. Feel inside of it
30:08
Speaker 3: is is his focus. And after this, I would think
30:13
Speaker 3: that anybody that was in this kind of fervor is
30:15
Speaker 3: almost like a sexual fervor, you know, where they are
30:18
Speaker 3: so amped up at this point in time. You've got
30:22
Speaker 3: the sights say that the even in the dark, you
30:25
Speaker 3: do have these sights. You've got the sounds and smells
30:28
Speaker 3: all that stuff. He's at a heightened state as he's
30:31
Speaker 3: leaving this place. That sheep is a laughing on his mind,
30:35
Speaker 3: and that that could be, that could be something that
30:38
Speaker 3: is going to turn out to be his doll ball.
30:41
Speaker 2: This case to you Chris McDonough joining us from the
30:44
Speaker 2: interview room on YouTube and Joseph Scott Morgan joining us
30:49
Speaker 2: from body bags. With Joe Scott Morgan, we wait as
30:55
Speaker 2: more evidence becomes known.
30:58
Speaker 1: Goodbye friend, you
31:02
Speaker 6: N