Latest / Infidels / Born Under the Ayatollah: An Assyrian Christian's Warning to the West | Juliana Taimoorazy
Transcript
- Richard Landes: Welcome to Infidel Awareness Month. Christianity was born in the Middle East. For 2,000 years there were Christians in Iraq, in Syria, and Egypt. In the land between the river and the sea where the faith first took root. Today they're vanishing. In Iraq alone, the Christian population has collapsed from something like a million and a half to a small remnant in a single generation. This isn't an accident of war or a side effect of poverty. It follows a pattern, an old pattern. My guest does not study that pattern from a distance. She knew it and was born into it. Giuliana Taimurazzi. Did I get that right? Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes, yes. Richard Landes: Juliana Tamurazi is an Assyrian Christian born in Iran whose family carries the memory of the Assyrian genocide in its own history. I'll let her tell you that later. She is a writer. And two of her recent essays sit at the center of today's conversation. In one, she takes two atrocities in Iraq the Simele massacre of Assyrian Christians in 1933, and the Farhud, the in massacre of Jews in 1941. And these two massacres are seven years apart. In each case, a native people present for thousands of years. was first turned into the outsider, the disloyal agent of a foreign power, the unbeliever, the infidel, and then destroyed. In other words, she turns to us, to America, and delivers a warning she first heard from a displaced Assyrian woman in 2005. What happened to us will reach you. Juliana Taimurazi, welcome to Infidel Awareness. Juliana Taimoorazy: It's such an honor to be with you. Thank you. Richard Landes: So tell us, as you wish, your involvement experience with this phenomenon, which is in a sense violates the last fourteen hundred years of Christian Muslim relations. That for all this time, Christians were living amongst Muslims, granted not with the kinds of rights that we expect today, but they were allowed to live. And now all of a sudden in a generation there's a kind of I don't even know if I'd call it slow motion, but you know, medium motion ethnic cleansing or religious cleansing going on. Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes, indeed. as you read the bi my biography, I have lived it, my family has lived it. So I was born and raised in Iran. And under the king of Iran, we were really comfortable. We had religious freedom, freedom of expression, and our number, the Assyrian number at the time, was about forty to fifty thousand people. And then nineteen seventy-nine revolution happened and I was six years old. I clearly remember the protests and and then the imposition on minorities, including us as Christians. When I began going to school at age eight, I was no longer able to show my hair. I had to cover my hair. Outside on the streets at school, I had to cover my cross, hide my cross, and we weren't allowed to do the act of the cross or or pray outside. So everything absolutely changed. And it didn't really end there. The Iran-Iraq war. Took many of the Assyrians, both in Iran and Iraq, to the front lines, especially the Assyrians in Iraq. There was there was a deliberate pushing the Assyrian men to the front lines for them to be killed first. Not so much in Iran, but it was absolutely true in Iraq. So in Iraq, absolutely, many, many Assyrians were killed then. Richard Landes: Iraq. Right. And that's right. And that's a war that was basically played along the lines of World War One in northern Europe, in which the the soldiers were cannon fodder and they were just sent to die. Juliana Taimoorazy: So the war I was referencing was the Iran Iraq war, but thank you for pointing out the it was the same strategy. Richard Landes: Right, but it was the same strategy of just so they're sending their Christian minority to the front to be used as canon vibe. Juliana Taimoorazy: Indeed, indeed. In fact, if I can build on what you said, at the time of during the World War One period, The Great Britain, France, and especially Russia came to us and said, came to the Assyrians in Southeast Turkey and Northwestern Iran. They said, Come and join us, join us so you can fight. And we in return, especially Britain, said, We will give you your own autonomous area, your own land, which really technically, and I'll briefly talk about who the Assyrians are, is northern Iraq, southern Turkey. So we fought for the Allies during World War One, but we faced Absolute betrayal in the hands of the British. So so my family history, that history that I just briefly mentioned, the way we lived in Iran, really is a part of a larger picture of the Middle East Christians, or at the time in 1914 era, the Mesopotamian Christians. So if I may, let me take a step back to tell your audience who the Assyrians are. The Assyrians, not many know about who we are. We're approximately two and a half million, maybe three million left throughout the world. we are the d the Our ancestors are the Assyrians from the Great Empire, the first, really the first empire in the region. And we have contributed greatly to civilization as Assyrians. Mesopotamians, the riding system, the irrigation system, the city system all came from Mesopotamia from my ancestors. And then fast forward to 2,000 years ago, we are among the first nations that could. Converted to Christianity through St. Thomas and St. Bartholomew in northern Iraq. We still speak Aramaic. So among all the nations that have come and gone, we are still holding steadfast to our heritage and our language. But really, our numbers are dwindling down, as as you mentioned earlier. From one and a half million Assyrians in Iraq, we are barely one hundred thousand left. And if I may, I'd like to say give you the numbers in Syria and in Turkey and in Iran. In Iran today we have barely three thousand people left. As I mentioned earlier. Richard Landes: Okay, so give us the numbers. Right. Give us the numbers and then we'll go into how does this process happen? Juliana Taimoorazy: Most definitely. So in Turkey, we probably have about twenty-five, thirty thousand Assyrian Christians that are left. in in Syria, Christians about three hundred thousand, maybe three to five hundred thousand, that number varies. Assyrian Christians specifically, only one thousand two hundred are left in northeast Syria. so our numbers are really dwindling, and that is not by accident. That's a systematic. assault against the indigenous people of the region who are Christians who were there prior to Islam, prior to Christianity, and then we converted to Christianity 2,000 years ago, and now our numbers have drastically dwindled down. We Richard Landes: Now have you left? Is it that there's been a population transfer to the West? Juliana Taimoorazy: It's a mixture. It's a mixture. during World War One, many Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians converted to Christian to Islam by force. many of them now are rising up, waking up saying that we're Greeks, we're Armenians, we are Assyrians, but we still want to stay within the confines of Islam. They say that. But they are waking up to their ethnicity. And and that was that was a systematic assault. That's a that's not just I know we use the term genocide because people have been have been murdered. But there's another point that we really don't talk about at at large, and that's a cultural genocide. There's been a serious cultural linguistic genocide that has been inflicted on us. And now many of us are living in the West. Majority of Assyrians are living in the West, for example. But we are being pulled into the fiber of the West. So we're facing an assimilation and integration, which I'm a fan of, I'm a fan of integration into the system that has that has given us shelter, but with that comes annihilation of our language, annihilation of our culture and heritage. Richard Landes: Yeah, I I wouldn't use the word annihilation, but the the the loss of it, Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes. Richard Landes: which which hopefully can be reacquired. i what what it sounds like you're describing is s not in terms of religion, and I do think the religion is crucial, but i there's somebody once said there's the first world, that's America, there's the second world, that's the communist bloc. There's the third world, and that's the underdeveloped countries. And then somebody said, and there's the fourth world, and that's the minority in third world countries, which are in fact often imperialist. So that the fourth world would be, for example, the Assyrians and the Armenians, and a whole bunch of the Greeks. all of whom have been under pressure more or less since the beginning of the nineteenth century, under heavy pressure from Islam to either convert or to face such punitive treatment that, you know, you leave. Juliana Taimoorazy: The Mesopotamian Christians were the first people that came face to face, and the Jews who lived in Mesopotamia, they are the first people that came face to face with Muslims. And we did perse we did face persecution. We did face pay the jeziya, the protection tax. and many of the Jews and Assyrians and Armenians, many even 1400 years ago, convert had to convert to Islam in order to save their lives. So this phenomenon of what we saw during World War One or even mid eighteen hundreds is wasn't new f to us as Christians. But under the Ottoman Empire we lived as millet, millet system, which we're thimis, we mind our own business, we don't rise up against the system. So they were so exactly. Richard Landes: And we don't and we don't criticize Muslims. Juliana Taimoorazy: Exactly. So we were left alone, you know, to live and and our patriarch, for example, was our political leader and religious leader. But everything came to a head with the World War One, with the outbreak of World War One. Richard Landes: So one of the things that happens right after World War I, World War I's over in 1918, six years later is the end of the Ottoman caliphate. And that's a Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes. Richard Landes: real blow to Muslim supremacism. And it seems to me that a great deal of the sort of sharpening hostility to minority groups that had been protected. was now a response to this threatened superiority that undergird their supremacist doctrines, which is Islam is just so fabulously superior to everything else that anybody who doesn't convert must be bad. Juliana Taimoorazy: Exactly. And a great example of that is the massacre of the Assyrians in nineteen thirty-three in Iraq. Richard Landes: We I explain that. Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes. So in nineteen thirty two, Iraq signed an agreement with League of the League of Nations that it would protect as a republic it would protect the minorities living within its borders. But anything but everything else fell apart when it comes to the minority, meaning the Jews and the Assyrians, the Yazidis, for example, are rights within Iraq. And we were accused of being treacherous. Why? Because our patriarch, because of our allegiance to the British, because of our service to the British and the promises that they had made to us to have our own land, to have our own state, it all fell apart. So knowing what would befall us, the patriarch refused to sign an allegiance to the Republic of Iraq. And that following other incidents that happened, we were called treacherous, we were called traitors, agents of the West, and we were attacked. Richard Landes: So you broke contract you broke the contract of the Dimma, which is really a protection racket, and so you no longer had your protection and you became the object of violence. And this happens in nineteen thirty three. Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes. Yes, it immediately after the when Iraq became a republic in nineteen thirty-two. And the people that fell to the sword, and this was a s this was a state-led persecution of the Assyrians, specifically towards the Assyrians, where the army was dispatched, they brought in some Kurdish tribes, and they together plundered the Assyrians. So the number that is approximately is cited by the scholars is about three. Thousand about three thousand Assyrians were killed. So these it is important to mention a lot of these Assyrians that were killed were the remnant, the ones that were survived the auto the World War I genocide. So they 20 years plus before that they had just gone through a genocide and now they're faced again with another massacre. And about 60 Richard Landes: And the Kurds find something in the earlier one as well. Juliana Taimoorazy: Some Kurds were involved, not all Kurds, but some Kurdish tribes were involved. Richard Landes: Yeah. That's not really Juliana Taimoorazy: Indeed, indeed. And they plundered sixty villages and they called jihad. This was a form of jihad that was called against us. We were othered, we were agents of the West, we were Christian, therefore we were Kafir, we were infidels, and we were murdered in northern. Richard Landes: And this is happening b between in the interwar period. Juliana Taimoorazy: This happened in nineteen thirty three, right after Richard Landes: thirty three Juliana Taimoorazy: yes. Richard Landes: and then the war breaks out in thirty nine and in forty one you have the Farhud and I I gather you have an extensive analysis of the common traits of both of these incidents. Juliana Taimoorazy: There is a there are many in fact in my research at the university, I'm a PhD candidate at UT Dallas, I am comparing the maternal memory of the Assyrian and Jews during the Farhud and the Semel. there's there are many similarities. They the Jewish people in 1941 were accused of being agents of the West as well, that they were Zionists, that they were they were demonized because Fritz Gropa Groba had brought in Mein Kampf, had translated the Mein Kampf, and then he was under the influence of Hajj Amin al Husseini, who was working directly with the Nazis. So all of these play In the hands of urban Muslims that rose suddenly against during the Shawuot against the Baghdadi Jews. And the number of murdered is approximately 600. 600 Jews were mercilessly murdered, their belongings were robbed, and there were many women raped. I mean, the stories are so similar between what happened to the Assyrians and what happened to the Jews. The experience, we have a shared experience. experience with that. So I I thought I should really study the the mother's experience during these two catastrophes. Richard Landes: And since we see this behavior again today, there are there are mothers to interview now from all over. So let's look at the the bigger picture of Christians within the Muslim majority world. If I understand you're arguing that there is a sort of constant and constantly increasing pressure. Pushing them out. Juliana Taimoorazy: It's systematic, absolutely. it is supremacist, it is systematic. They can live in those lands if they are living under the dimmy, which they are living under the dhi class. But and for example, let's take Iran, because it looks different in each country, right? In Iran, for example, the three thousand Assyrians, the fifty thousand Armenians and eight thousand Jews, they have to keep their heads down, their eyes down. They have representation inside the parliament, yes. But there's always an agent That is monitoring, for example, in the in the case of the Assyrians, monitors what the priest from the pulpit speaks of on Sundays. they're unable to pray outside, they're not able to evangelize. And I say that there's a difference in Iran, there's a difference between the cradle Christians and the converts, those apostates. So the cradle Christians are people like me that were born into the faith, they were baptized as infants, but there but there is approximately This number is thrown around, it's not a scholarly given number, but about five million Iranians are said to have converted into Christianity and they're practicing Christianity in underground churches, as they call these churches. And if once if they are discovered, if they're betrayed, they're imprisoned, they're tortured, many of them are executed. I know myself, two young men who have converted to Christianity, who have tattooed the cross on their arm. And they are pulled into the by the besiege every once in a while. They have a massive file on them. And the f the their mother who lives here in the United States is terrified for their for their safety. So that looks different than the Christians in Iraq, for example. Christians in Iraq, for example, the Iraqi government has a law. First of all, Iraq is is under Sharia law. And according to their law, if a mother or a father becomes Muslim, then the children are automatically Islamic. They're Muslim. That is a violation of their religious freedom. And so that looks different. living under Sharia law looks different for Muslims in Iraq for for Christians in Iraq, for example. Under in Turkey, I met Turkish pastor, native Turkish who converted to Christianity, he's able to have in Ephesus, he's able to have a an open church. And yet in Southeast Turkey, in southern part of Turkey, for example, Christians have to hide their cross, they ha they cannot freely practice. So it all is different. Richard Landes: So it really it really Yeah, and to some extent the r the rules are there, whether they get reinforced or not depends on almost on the mood of both the ruler and the people. And you can have really unpleasant situations or you can have, you know, situations they're not by modern standards any kind of freedom or dignity, but you know, it's not being ground, you know, as or well put it, the human boot stamping on the human face forever. So Juliana Taimoorazy: But in Africa it's different though, right? In Nigeria, for example, Richard Landes: Okay. Juliana Taimoorazy: there is this massive as we sit here today, there is a massive genocide that is underway in Nigeria against the Christians. the recent number, out of 4,849 Christians across the world that have been murdered, according to Open Doors in 2026, 72 Richard Landes: So about five thousand Juliana Taimoorazy: about 5,000 people, 72% of those are in Nigeria. So in Nigeria, Islam rules differently. In in Nigeria, in sub-Saharan Africa, and in Uzai Balut, who is a brilliant journalist, has written extensively about the persecution of Christians in Africa, in the hands of Muslims. So it really is Islam, a lot of people call it a religion. I will go a step further, many yourself, many go a step further and say it is a form of governing. of how they impose the Sharia law on its subjects. Richard Landes: So, yeah, so I mean I think that's where the emphasis is an interesting emphasis on this notion of supremacism, that that you know, we have a right to rule over other people, we have a right to diminish other people. Now, one of the things you've talked about the dhima, is it possible, in which Muslim majority countries, is it possible for a non-Muslim, an infidel, to take Adim Adhimi to take a Muslim to court. Juliana Taimoorazy: So the answer is it's it's complicated, but Richard Landes: In other words, I'll find Juliana Taimoorazy: the answer is n no. they're not able to freely like we are able to do that in the West. They are n it's not that easy for them to do anything like that. And I'll give you an example of what happened to me in Iraq. I was in Iraq in two thousand eighteen and we in our convoy was in an accident with a a Muslim family. car accident. And they could come and imprison the drivers, the soldiers. These guys were Assyrian soldiers of a small group that protects some areas in the north. They could take them without any judgment, without any due trial, take them to prison and imprison them. Why? Because the individual that we were in collision with was a Muslim. And we had to pray pay bribes to the Muslim family not to press charges against the Assyrian, the Christian people. So it is the laws are stacked against us. Richard Landes: That sounds that sounds like a the classic definition of apartheid. Juliana Taimoorazy: Exactly. Exactly. And yet Israel is accused of that system, which is absolutely Richard Landes: Right, right. Yeah, we we have a day dedicated Juliana Taimoorazy: erroneous. Richard Landes: right. We have a day dedicated to the mirror accusations, you know, the they accuse us of doing what they so desperately want to do and openly say they wanna do, and when they have a chance, do and somehow the West believes it. Okay, which leads us to the next question, which is where's the West in this? I mean The West in general, which is concerned and has compassion for victims, and certainly the progressive West. And even more to the point, where are the Christians? W why don't we know about this? Juliana Taimoorazy: It's a very big question you're asking. permit me to talk about the silence of the the American Christians. So the persecution of the Assyrians in recent time in Iraq did not start in 2014. A lot of people reference ISIS genocide, but it actually started in Richard Landes: right. That's the first time we that's the first time we heard about it. Right. Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes, but it's not it started really in recent time. It started in two thousand three. With the fall of Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant, and a lot of people asked me the question of Were you better under Saddam Hussein? The answer is also complicated. Saddam Hussein was an Arab nationalist. If the minorities attested to being Iraqi Christian, for example, then they were left alone. They had freedom of religion. But as soon as they said, no, we are Assyrians, no, we are Armenians, then they were imprisoned, and there are so many mass grades. That have not been uncovered yet, that Assyrians were murdered in the hands of Saddam Hussein because they said we're Assyrians and and we are Christian. So the murder of the Christians in Iraq really started in two thousand three in recent times. Because of the ousting of Saddam, there was a vacuum that was created. And Al Qaeda found its safe haven inside the border of Iraq, and they started bombing church detonating churches, they started murdering our clergy, raping our women, looting the Christian homes. So one and a half million Assyrians in two thousand three began fleeing. They fled to Syria, to Turkey and Els and Jordan. And then came ISI, Islamic State of Iraq, which they continue their savagery, and then came ISIS in 2014. So so so the Christians were absolutely silent from 2003 to 2014. When I founded my organization, Iraqi Christian Relief Council, I knocked on so many doors, and they the Catholics said to me, Well, you're not, you're you're you have never been safe in Muslim countries. Pack your bags and come. To the West, we'll welcome you. My pushback was, but those are our ancestral lands, that is where Richard Landes: Right. Juliana Taimoorazy: we've lived for over 6,000 years. We're not just going to pick up and go. We want you to step in and not be indifferent. The evangelic, the Protestants, I am actually a Zionist. I've coined the term the child Zionist. Yes, Richard Landes: You sound like a Zion you sound like a Zionist. No, but I mean you're saying, look, this place matters. Juliana Taimoorazy: absolutely, absolutely. Then evangelicals, the Protestants actually would say to me, Are you really real Christians? Because you were baptized as infants. You're merely cultural Christians, so we really were not going to get involved. I mean, I heard that over and over again until 2014 when ISIS put its brutality. on display for everyone to see. That's when for just a moment the American Christians woke up. They stepped in, they helped financially, they helped with their prayers. I mean, Dr. Ratlandis, I remember presenting in a church and people knelt by our feet, Christians, and they wept. They made my feet and my my board members' feet wet with their tears But that quickly went away. The suffering never ended. And what is appalling to me as a descendant of a of a family who has been murdered in the hands of Muslims during World War One, I'm appalled with the silence of the black Christians in America when their brethren are being murdered in Africa. Why are they silent? And I th I attribute that to Richard Landes: So for instance, why aren't black churches in America up in arms about what's happening in Nigeria? Juliana Taimoorazy: Exactly. I'm I'm not I am puzzled and I'm appalled at their silence. But I Richard Landes: Let's say disappoint. Juliana Taimoorazy: no, I'm appalled. I'm appalled because there are Richard Landes: I I understand. Juliana Taimoorazy: 72% of Christians that were murdered in 2026 are na Nigerian Christians. And and I think if I if can we talk a little bit about why the silence? in the West? Because you started with that. Yes. Yeah. Richard Landes: Yes, that's what I I that's what I want to hear from you. That's what I want to hear what you think. Juliana Taimoorazy: I think I think it's multi-layered. And it's a complex answer to give. Number one, I think there is a fear of being called racist, a fear of being called Islamophobic. If we stand up and say, look, Muslims are killing Christians in the Middle East, Muslims are cre Muslims have killed the terrorists that have come to the West are Muslims. And we're not saying all Muslims are terrorists. I'm absolutely standing against that. Because there were so many Assyrians and others and Jews that have been hard. During four for 1941 and 1933 that were protected by Muslims. But all t terrorism is happening in the hands of Muslims in the West. So I think we're afraid of saying anything. And I think Muslim Brotherhood, which is a very important organization that is not really familiar. People Americans are not really familiar with Muslim Brotherhood and its doctrine. But it it has been using Richard Landes: We have infidel awareness. Juliana Taimoorazy: And it's and I pray that is extremely successful because it's much needed. Muslim Brotherhood has used the interfaith dialogue to put shackles on the hands of the churches and synagogues in America, and I think also in Europe. That that happened to me. Again, I come with a lot of stories to share because I've lived it. Richard Landes: Go ahead. Go ahead. Juliana Taimoorazy: There is there was a Catholic priest in Illinois in Arlington Heights who said to me that I will not allow you to poison the hearts and minds of my young parishioners. Because I just last week I met with the neighborhood ma umam at the mosque, and we had a great conversation. And I know the pillars of Islam. There are five pillars of Islam that I believe are peaceful. And you're coming to our church and you're going to say to them, You're gonna paint a different picture, that goes against everything that I stand for, that that comes from the priest. So he didn't allow me to speak about their his brethren's persecution because of the interfaith dialogue he had with the neighborhood Richard Landes: Right. So wait a minute, Juliana Taimoorazy: imam. Richard Landes: isn't that the per behaviour of Athimi? Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes. Richard Landes: Isn't he doing exactly what his Muslim minders want him to do? Which is shut you up. Juliana Taimoorazy: Absolutely. Therefore, therefore, I call it an exilic condition that we have sleepwalked into this condition that is going to cause lead to our demise in the West. We have been Richard Landes: So wait a minute, expla what explain what you mean by exilic condition. Juliana Taimoorazy: It when we're in exile, exile is not just a physical removal of a people from their home. Exile is spiritual, mental, physical, cultural. And what is happening to us in America, as an American, I can attest to this, that we are forsaking our our beautiful principles that this nation stands on, that our civilization stands on, and it has created a self hating culture among especially our young people. that we're they're self-hating Americans wanting to destroy America from within and this exilic condition will definitely lead us into submitting to what is coming to us, which is a Sharia Richard Landes: So Juliana Taimoorazy: law, I believe. Richard Landes: right, so when you w we'll come back to that. But but when you talk about the exilic condition, really it's a form of self alienation. It's like you don't you reject your own body, you reject your own culture. Juliana Taimoorazy: Exactly, exactly. We reject Richard Landes: All right. So Juliana Taimoorazy: it, we hate it, we walk away from it, and we want another culture, another awareness, another another conscience to take over. Richard Landes: All right, but but how bizarre is it if you're angry at your culture, you loathe your culture because it isn't sufficiently egalitarian, it isn't sufficiently open to the other, it isn't sufficiently dedicated to getting rid of all power structures, etc., it's systematic racism, all these things. You don't like your culture because it's not doing a good enough job of these things. And then you turn to another culture that does everything ten times as bad and validate that. That doesn't sound Juliana Taimoorazy: Exactly. Richard Landes: like I mean, it sounds like they're telling themselves a story, but it sounds like they're just they're just being obedient. Juliana Taimoorazy: Exactly. I think that comes from a lack of awareness, lack of education, lack of experience. And I believe there is a bankruptcy that our Western civilization is faced with, and that is losing our young people. We are not giving discipline framework to the lives of the young people. And we are longing for discipline. We are long why did so many American and European men join ISIS? Because there was a hierarchy because there was discipline, there was a system. Richard Landes: Whoa wait wait wa wait. How how many are you talking about American Muslims joining ISIS or are you talking about Americans in general joining ISIS? Juliana Taimoorazy: There were many Americans who joined ISIS, who pledged allegiance to ISIS, and many Brits did the same. Ma I don't have the numbers. Richard Landes: And the American army doesn't provide enough discipline. Juliana Taimoorazy: I don't think I think we lack a framework that is necessary to humanity. Richard Landes: We lack or we've lost. We've lost the framework. We've lost right. Juliana Taimoorazy: We've lost it. We've lost it. We've lost it, yes. Richard Landes: And it's the framework that built the free society in which these progressive values could even appear. I mean, these the progressive values of woke today could never appear in other cultures. They they wouldn't tolerate those kinds of attitudes, those radical progressive values. And here we are, a culture that's so developed that we can tolerate those, and we produce people who then turn around and submit to exactly the kinds of forces that it took us in in my read of history a thousand years to overcome. Juliana Taimoorazy: Indeed, indeed. I think academia has is creating this generation that is, as you said, self loathing, hating our own culture, h hating our principles. Richard Landes: Okay, so wait a minute, you're in academia. You're in academia. Is it all lost? Juliana Taimoorazy: I am new in academia. I come from Richard Landes: Yeah. Juliana Taimoorazy: the world of humanitarian aid and advocacy. So Richard Landes: I think. Juliana Taimoorazy: I have that experience under my belt. And now that I'm in academia, I it I I can look, according to Jewish wisdom, we cannot be hopeless and steep in despair. We Richard Landes: We are forbidden to spare, right? Yes. Juliana Taimoorazy: Exactly, exactly. So I'm not going to say that it's all lost. I think people like yourself, people like Dr. David Patterson and David Deutsch and and people like me and my compatriots, we have something to say and we should continue, continue, at all cost really to help people see the other side, the other perspective. One of my professors once I said, Look, I come to you it to your class. I was brand new in this culture, in academic culture. I said, look, I'm coming Richard Landes: Right. Juliana Taimoorazy: to you with a conservative hat on my head. I've I've Richard Landes: Right. Juliana Taimoorazy: always been conservative. I'm I'm steeped in faith my faith. And that's an anomaly in academia. He actually welcomed it. And over and over again again, he called on to me to pr to bring in a different perspective. But he too is actually. an anomaly that accepts a different point of view. so we have to we have to continue f this fight. We cannot give up. Richard Landes: All right, so let's just talk a little more about waking up American Christians to solidarity, and not just solidarity with fellow Christians, but solidarity let's say you're a Protestant or you're Catholic and you've decided that these people are not your people. Okay, but they are fellow infidels. Who are being targeted by the same forces. So out of pure rational self-preservation, you would want to ally with them. Juliana Taimoorazy: absolutely. And I would say I would add Jews to this conversation as well. It's first Saturday people, then Sunday people. History has shown us this. And Richard Landes: Right. Right. So if the West were sane it would be Zionist. Juliana Taimoorazy: I think so, because you know what is Zionism? Zionism is very simple. Zionism is Jews have the right to return and to live dignified lives on their own land. I would want the Assyrians to live dignified lives on their own land, in the in Nineveh, which is today's Mosul, right? North northern part of Richard Landes: Okay. Juliana Taimoorazy: Mosul. So but but I think this conversation should include the Jewish people as well, because I believe Israel is on the front lines fighting the Western fight for West to say the Western civilization, out in the midst of everything, in the middle of the Middle East, right? and we we tend to forget that Israel is actually located in the Middle East. And yes, and so Richard Landes: Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Juliana Taimoorazy: so I think the I think what The Western Christians, not just the American Christians, what the Western Christians should do is they have to go back to their faith, their Judeo Christian faith, and and to their main principles, that also Jews fight for those principles. I believe in the Torah, 36 times it has been said, love the stranger. And Christians also believe in that love thy neighbor. So this basic principle should bind us together and should really educate Richard Landes: Yes. Juliana Taimoorazy: ourselves about what the truth is, really understand and not steep in despair, but use this as an opportunity to get educated and to and I think if I may finish my thought, in America, Washington does not move the people. People move Washington. And in Amer American and Jewish Christian, American Christians and American Jews have the right to vote with their feet and to persuade their lawmakers to implement certain laws, to defend the vulnerable, really. And understanding Islam is crucial. Do not be afraid of studying Islam or speaking to ex-Muslims. It's crucial to speak to ex-Muslims because they are the ones who will tell the truth. Richard Landes: Right, and and not just exploring Islam as it's presented to you by apologists with w what I call the narrative for infidel consumption, but study supremacist Islam, study how they think about you, study what it means, what in their eyes an infidel is. But so let me let me you you gave me an idea while we were talking. What would happen if Israel were To create, starting in the West Bank and possibly even in Gaza, a refuge for the various Christian groups that are under so much pressure where they live. And so, in a sense, Israel could turn these occupied territories into liberated territories where people who are fleeing. supremacist Muslim oppression could find refuge and could find, you know, basic civil rights. Do you think that would be a way to I mean you could exchange homes, right? The the Palestinians on the West Bank can move to Mosul and and the Assyrian Christians can move to the West Bank. And we've got neighbors that we can work with, and you've got a place that you can live free, and you know, Palestinians don't have to have us being mean to them all the time. Juliana Taimoorazy: I can't tell you how many times people, Assyrian people in Iraq and also in refugee conditions have pled with me to contact my con connections or mobilize my connections in Israel to bring them over to Israel. I'll give you a political answer, an Assyrian Richard Landes: Ooh. Yeah. Juliana Taimoorazy: political answer, and I'll give you my answer with my with my advocacy hat on. Richard Landes: Okay. Juliana Taimoorazy: The Assyrian political answer will be we should not be uprooted from our land. We are indigenous to this land, we've lived here for over 6,700 years, we should stay here and we should live dignified lives with equal rights. My advocacy hat says. Richard Landes: Well wait a minute, the answer to that is that's not happening. You're not you're Juliana Taimoorazy: That's not yes. The the Richard Landes: not gonna live a dignified life in mo in the N Ninevan Plain. Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes, yes. At the moment we're not. And most likely as long as Iran Richard Landes: Right. Okay, so we say Juliana Taimoorazy: is Richard Landes: right. So we say you will leave now because of the intolerable conditions of supremacist Islam, but then when Muslims give up this supremacist attitude, which is so unbecoming, then we get to go back. Because then they shouldn't have a problem with us being there. Once they give up Juliana Taimoorazy: You know Richard Landes: the supremacism Juliana Taimoorazy: I think, wow, this is gonna require another another set episode. I think reformation, Richard Landes: Ha ha ha. Juliana Taimoorazy: if I if you will, or this giving up supremacy, I wish, I wish that it cannot come from the leadership. It I'm very passionate about this, and it cannot come from us from the West. It has to start from their local imam. in their rural areas. And I'm I and I wish, I don't think we'll live to see that day, but I hope for the future's sake, our future generations that would happen. But going back to what you suggested, nobody will take the Palestinians or Arabs who call themselves out Palestinians. Syrians really don't want them, Jordanians really never wanted them, Iraqi certainly will not take them. And and being a fellow Muslim is not enough. They will always be, these Arabs, Palestinians, will always be considered refugees, that they do not belong to these countries. So I don't think Richard Landes: They must be Juliana Taimoorazy: so. I don't think Iraqi government en masse, or Syrian government, for example, will take these Palestinians. they don't want them. Richard Landes: What if they're what if yeah, I understand they don't want them. and in fact it explains why they're so eager to have us take them, because because they know how unpleasant Palestinian leaders certainly can be. but what if there were heavy diplomatic pressure from the West on the Iraqi government saying, no, there's gonna be a there's gonna be a population exchange. I mean, that's how Cyprus was handled. Somebody got the Nobel Peace Prize in nineteen twenty four for the separation of the two populations. And that's what happened, unfortunately, with a great deal of bloodshed in India. We'll have a day dedicated to discussing that's that situation. But but here you are in a situation where there's several hundred thousand people. Well, Palestinians are a couple of million, but Iraq is a whole lot bigger than Israel is, or the West Bank is, and there you need to take these people in. I mean, you know, i why isn't there pressure? Why is why does nobody say to the Muslim world, why are you not taking any of these refugees? The jihadis are causing refugees everywhere. Sudan, Nigeria, Yemen, you name it, Syria for sure. Iraq, they're producing all these refugees and you don't take any of them? Juliana Taimoorazy: Let me take the Christian refugees across the board and give you one answer. Richard Landes: Okay. Right. Juliana Taimoorazy: one of the former members of the House who fought for 40 years for the right for religious freedom, I I won't share his name, who said to me, we were standing on the Golan Heights in Israel in 2015 in November. He said to me. Your Assyrian people are Richard Landes: Right. Juliana Taimoorazy: dispensable to the American foreign policy. As soon as you figure out a way of becoming indispensable to the foreign policy of the West, that's when we will pay attention to you. And his sentence resonates over and over or rings in my ear over and over when I see the situation in Africa. That is plaguing the African Christians. In Syria, in Iraq, no one really stands up for Syrian Christians that have been, there's been much bloodshed, African Christians. Why? Because we really do not matter to the West. And he said this with almost love and care. Richard Landes: Right, right, right, right. So but but l let me see you let me try out a reversal of that, which is the Americans don't value you even though they should. And by us val valuing you and offering you a refuge, we can bring the Americans to an understanding of how valuable not only you are, but how important it is to value you. To value Juliana Taimoorazy: And you know Richard Landes: the infidels in the Middle East. Who are being systematically oppressed. I mean, it's real classic. I'm a medievalist. This is medieval conditions. Juliana Taimoorazy: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I I'm gonna say that again. I cannot tell you how many refugees have asked me to take them to Israel. So many. that would be that would be a wonderful situation if that would were to happen. And I'll tell you something else, that Richard Landes: Family. Juliana Taimoorazy: the Assyrian people Are very loyal to the government. They will be loyal to the government. They're great, they have great crafts. They're they're great citizens. We're commanded to be great citizens. So Richard Landes: They're good citizens. Right. Yeah. Right. Juliana Taimoorazy: it I think Israel really would benefit greatly, and they would have, they would live, as we see, very free, prosperous lives in Israel. But I don't know if there's political appetite for this. Richard Landes: Right. Okay, so so Israel Right, right. So okay, but you know, sometimes policies take a while to go from the margins to the center. But the idea would be Israel declares the West Bank a refugee zone for any Christians or any infidels in the Muslim world who are fleeing oppression. Juliana Taimoorazy: the world would s rise even more harshly against Israel for uprooting the Palestinians from from Judea Samaria. Richard Landes: Well no, no, no, no. We're not even I mean, one of the interesting things about the argument about uprooting the Palestinians and you know, Israelis drove the Palestinians away. When when the Jews, the Zionists first started coming here at the turn of the nineteenth, twentieth century, you know, at most there were a million people in the land. I suspect there were less, but okay. Say there were a million people. There are ten million people in this area now. So I I think Israel could take in in Area C in the West Bank a fair number of people without displacing any Palestinians. I mean, Palestinians would have new neighbors. Juliana Taimoorazy: Would they get along with these Christian neighbors? Exactly. Richard Landes: They w they they would not, but they would at least have the protection of the Israeli army. Juliana Taimoorazy: Yes, it's a it's a very interesting idea. let's Richard Landes: Yeah. Juliana Taimoorazy: talk let's talk about this offline. there will be I think the uprooting Richard Landes: Yeah, we can persist. Juliana Taimoorazy: the uprooting analogy that I brought in or the word is not mine, is theirs. It's you know, those who would be against this and who are on that bandwagon, if you will. Richard Landes: Right. Juliana Taimoorazy: but it's a very interesting idea. it's very interesting, actually. Richard Landes: Okay, okay. Well this is great. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your expertise with us. And I look forward to continuing to work with you. Juliana Taimoorazy: Thank you for everything that you're doing, Dr. Landis, for this entire space. you are you're a hope. You're a hope against that despair. Richard Landes: All right, I'll accept that. All right. Juliana Taimoorazy: Have a good day.