Latest / Critical Error / You Don’t Like The Game, You Like Your Friends

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You Don’t Like The Game, You Like Your Friends · Critical Error

• 0:00
  Jake, I've been having a lot of fun with
• 0:01
  two video games lately, Fortnite and
• 0:03
  High Guard. I've been having a really
• 0:05
  good time playing with you, with our
• 0:07
  buddy Christian. Uh, honestly, like I'm
• 0:10
  having a hard time playing anything else
• 0:12
  because like I just think that they're
• 0:13
  good. I think the games are are kind of
• 0:15
  like excellent examples of modern
• 0:17
  >> No, Peter, Peter, Peter, Wait, I'm so
• 0:18
  sorry. I'm so sorry. I got to stop you
• 0:19
  right there because you clearly don't
• 0:21
  like the games. You just like me.
• 0:26
  A critical error is an error which the
• 0:28
  OS cannot reasonably ignore. Jake
• 0:31
  Steinberg is a streamer and writer and
• 0:33
  certified yapper. Complimentary Peter
• 0:36
  Hunt spit tech is a YouTuber, journalist
• 0:40
  and certified yapper. Derogatory. These
• 0:43
  are the things they cannot reasonably
• 0:44
  ignore.
• 0:45
  >> Did you like the game or did you just
• 0:48
  have fun with your friends? Jake, this
• 0:51
  is a question that has popped up over
• 0:53
  and over and over again in the current
• 0:55
  era of multiplayer gaming. It feels like
• 1:00
  we kind of don't have the words to talk
• 1:03
  about multiplayer games and the
• 1:05
  enjoyment and fun that we get out of
• 1:07
  them. And I feel like I've been seeing
• 1:09
  that more and more as um the years have
• 1:12
  been going on. What do you think?
• 1:14
  >> You know, uh friend slop, that's a
• 1:16
  that's a term that's that's really like
• 1:18
  emerged recently. Yes. And I think the
• 1:20
  first thing that comes to mind for me is
• 1:22
  that I don't think that multiplayer
• 1:24
  games are inherently more like shallow
• 1:27
  or uh you know you know like like
• 1:30
  perverse than single player games. I
• 1:33
  think what's clearly being demonstrated
• 1:35
  here by our inability largely to talk
• 1:38
  about them in this way is that they are
• 1:40
  under theorized. Uh so many of our
• 1:43
  critical tools are inherited from
• 1:45
  literature, film, and um you know, TV.
• 1:49
  Uh and I think all of this media is
• 1:53
  authored and fixed and privately
• 1:56
  received. But like video games are the
• 1:58
  only form of media where multiplayer
• 2:00
  exists. And since it breaks that model,
• 2:04
  we have not really done the work to
• 2:07
  adapt our tools and instead find
• 2:09
  ourselves, I think, dismissing the form
• 2:10
  a lot. Yeah, I think I think dismissal
• 2:13
  is the word that I would use a lot uh
• 2:16
  when like trying to talk about the way
• 2:18
  we talk about multiplayer games because
• 2:20
  like honestly I I can't think of a word
• 2:22
  that I like less than friend slop to be
• 2:24
  entirely honest with you. We've talked a
• 2:25
  little bit before in previous episodes
• 2:27
  of the show about sort of like I I don't
• 2:29
  really like the word slop because I feel
• 2:30
  like it's just kind of a lazy uh excuse
• 2:32
  to like offload
• 2:34
  um critical judgment of something uh
• 2:38
  because it's just just saying like this
• 2:39
  is the position I'm in. It's slop,
• 2:41
  right? And the idea of like friend slop,
• 2:43
  I think it's just a really reductive way
• 2:44
  to look at gaming in in the way that I
• 2:46
  think that question of like did you like
• 2:48
  the game or did you just have fun with
• 2:49
  your friends, I find it to be just
• 2:51
  really reductive. Um because I I think
• 2:54
  that like you can like both, you can
• 2:57
  also like one, you can also like the
• 2:58
  other. And I think all of it is a good
• 3:02
  read on the game. You know what I mean?
• 3:04
  Dude, dude, just imagine. Give me give
• 3:06
  me the reframe of you don't like the
• 3:09
  game. You like your friends. Give me the
• 3:10
  reframe for other media. You know what I
• 3:13
  mean? It's like, oh, you don't you don't
• 3:14
  like you don't like books. You just like
• 3:16
  sitting quietly and being thoughtful.
• 3:18
  Dude, you don't even like going to the
• 3:20
  theater. You just like being in a
• 3:22
  theater. You don't like going to the
• 3:23
  sports games. You just like eating hot
• 3:24
  dogs. Like this is, you know what I
• 3:26
  mean? It's like anything. It's like It's
• 3:27
  like Jake, you actually don't like
• 3:29
  basketball. all that time you're putting
• 3:31
  into basketball, it's just because you
• 3:33
  like tall, strong men. And it's like,
• 3:36
  yeah, you just it's all true. It's all
• 3:38
  true, but you you can't dismiss
• 3:39
  everything else, you know?
• 3:40
  >> But also, when you hear people like talk
• 3:41
  about their experiences, like let's just
• 3:43
  stick with sports cuz I think it's it's
• 3:44
  an easy sort of parallel heal here. When
• 3:46
  you see like hear people talk about
• 3:47
  their experience of like, oh, why I like
• 3:50
  going to baseball games,
• 3:52
  >> all of those elements are there, right?
• 3:54
  Like, I love being in with the crowd. I
• 3:56
  love, you know, eating peanuts and hot
• 3:58
  dogs and whatever and watching, you
• 3:59
  know, and like cheering and whatever.
• 4:02
  All of that is legit and also you like
• 4:04
  the sport. But it can be that you like
• 4:06
  those things sort of on an equal level,
• 4:08
  right? Like you can like the sport and
• 4:10
  the the sort of like um ritual maybe
• 4:14
  that surrounds it. And both of those
• 4:16
  things are enough for me to say, "Oh,
• 4:18
  you like that thing."
• 4:19
  >> Of course, it's the same thing with
• 4:20
  video games. Everybody loves like
• 4:22
  sitting down and playing a video game,
• 4:24
  but everybody listening to this right
• 4:25
  now is listening to a video game podcast
• 4:27
  in their free time and this is part of
• 4:29
  being a video game fan. You're just
• 4:31
  participating in the hobby in a uh
• 4:34
  different way than directly playing the
• 4:36
  game itself. And that's part of being a
• 4:39
  fan of anything. And and I think like so
• 4:41
  much of this like inability to
• 4:45
  interrogate a multiplayer game or like
• 4:47
  the lack of curiosity or the lack of
• 4:50
  desire the the you know I think we see
• 4:52
  this all the time with um I don't know
• 4:53
  if I want to go this far in this
• 4:55
  conversation today mostly because I'm
• 4:58
  unfamiliar with them but like the gotcha
• 5:01
  game
• 5:02
  >> is something that is like
• 5:04
  >> really prominent right now in the
• 5:06
  culture. Yeah. but are almost like
• 5:09
  pushed to the side and it's like this is
• 5:11
  a kind of game that isn't like a real
• 5:14
  video game that's worth critique. I
• 5:16
  would say that um fighting games are
• 5:18
  also looked at in a similar because it's
• 5:20
  it's almost like the function is the
• 5:22
  thing at the top not the narrative made
• 5:26
  for you to interpret it. Right.
• 5:28
  >> Yes. It's it's this thing like there's
• 5:29
  the sliding scale right of like video
• 5:32
  games are art or pieces of art, right?
• 5:34
  And also video games are toys.
• 5:36
  >> Do you know what I mean? And it feels
• 5:38
  like um
• 5:40
  it's a sliding scale, right, of like
• 5:42
  some games are designed to make you
• 5:44
  think. Some games are designed to make
• 5:45
  you go, "Wow, that was fun." Um most
• 5:48
  games are somewhere in the middle, but
• 5:51
  it feels like we so rarely give real
• 5:54
  reverence and respect. Maybe that's the
• 5:57
  wrong word. um uh really introspection
• 6:00
  maybe about the games that are closer to
• 6:03
  the let's just have some fun side of
• 6:06
  things because it is more difficult I
• 6:08
  think to actually like sit down with
• 6:10
  those feelings and sit down with like um
• 6:13
  cultural assessment and like critical
• 6:14
  assessment with those things
• 6:16
  >> because um they often are not standing
• 6:19
  still.
• 6:21
  >> Yeah, that's yeah that's interesting.
• 6:23
  And I and I wonder if like kind of a a
• 6:25
  refraction of that concept is you know
• 6:28
  how like genre expectations play into
• 6:32
  the way that you consume any piece of
• 6:35
  media like Yeah. And people I think in
• 6:37
  video games a lot will kind of do the
• 6:39
  the excuse making or like
• 6:42
  >> you've you've got to meet the thing
• 6:43
  where it is.
• 6:44
  >> Yes. You know, we we hear that a lot and
• 6:46
  I think that that's kind of related to
• 6:48
  this conversation, too, because um you
• 6:51
  know, again, I love reframing for other
• 6:53
  media. Like when you read a novel, you
• 6:55
  have to meet it where it's at. What does
• 6:57
  that mean? I think what that means for
• 6:59
  me is that you give it a voice. There is
• 7:02
  something that you are
• 7:04
  >> intimately performing with that text so
• 7:07
  that you can like literally read it in
• 7:08
  your head. When you sit down to watch a
• 7:09
  movie, you don't have to give it a
• 7:10
  voice, but you do have to give it um
• 7:12
  your attention span. Some would say you
• 7:14
  have to give it emotional buyin uh for
• 7:16
  you to really appreciate sports, for you
• 7:18
  to experience sports the way that
• 7:20
  they're meant to experience. Do you have
• 7:21
  to kind of buy into the tribalism aspect
• 7:24
  of it a little bit? I think maybe a
• 7:25
  little bit. Um particularly with team
• 7:27
  sports. And I think that there's some
• 7:29
  stuff that multiplayer games are asking
• 7:30
  you for. Um
• 7:33
  social coordination, the
• 7:35
  >> yeah,
• 7:36
  >> the vulnerability of being on a phone
• 7:38
  call.
• 7:39
  >> Okay, so this is something I've actually
• 7:40
  been thinking about a lot specifically
• 7:41
  with High Guard. And here's the thing.
• 7:42
  Listen, I know this video is going up on
• 7:44
  YouTube. I can I know I'm foreseeing the
• 7:46
  comments about like like High Guard LL,
• 7:49
  right? Like whatever. Here's the thing.
• 7:51
  I like this game, but it can this can
• 7:53
  translate to any other multiplayer like
• 7:56
  team-based game. Uh you want to talk
• 7:57
  about Counter-Strike, you want to talk
• 7:58
  about like Fortnite, whatever. Um but
• 8:02
  I'm just going to talk about High Guard
• 8:03
  because it's the one that's like
• 8:03
  specifically been on the mind lately.
• 8:06
  That is a game that is in my opinion
• 8:11
  significantly better played with
• 8:13
  friends.
• 8:15
  And there's a few reasons for that.
• 8:17
  Reason one is because I like my friends
• 8:19
  and I like talking to my friends and
• 8:22
  visiting and spending time with my
• 8:23
  friends on the phone on, you know, in
• 8:27
  PlayStation parties, on Discord,
• 8:28
  whatever. However, the other reason why
• 8:31
  I think it's a better game when you play
• 8:33
  with friends is because you are doing
• 8:34
  what you sort of mentioned here. this
• 8:35
  like you're having this like
• 8:36
  vulnerability of like we're on the phone
• 8:37
  and we're like coordinating for a task.
• 8:39
  we're like coordinating for a a like
• 8:42
  goal and you know it's it's completely
• 8:46
  valid and fine to play the game not like
• 8:49
  coordinating with people not on mic not
• 8:51
  whatever but I do think that there is a
• 8:52
  different sort of experience going on
• 8:55
  if you are not doing that and and I
• 8:58
  think it is it is this thing where like
• 8:59
  a lot of times people will say like oh
• 9:01
  well like it's no fun to play if you if
• 9:03
  you're not like actually like really
• 9:04
  really coordinated and that is true but
• 9:06
  I also think like yeah there's a certain
• 9:08
  amount of like you You know, you want to
• 9:09
  talk about like meeting the game where
• 9:10
  it's at. Well, the game is at this place
• 9:12
  that is asking you to try and
• 9:13
  coordinate, you know.
• 9:14
  >> Well, right now what you're talking
• 9:15
  about is story, which is which is a lot
• 9:18
  of people would not be able to identify,
• 9:19
  but the truth is is that um when you
• 9:22
  play Highguard and I ask you, Peter,
• 9:24
  what is Highgard about? What is like the
• 9:27
  first thing you're going to tell me is
• 9:28
  about the world or characters of
• 9:30
  Highguard? Probably not.
• 9:31
  >> Oh, they're so interesting though. I
• 9:33
  love
• 9:35
  >> but I think we understand that we love
• 9:39
  Kai
• 9:39
  >> Kai Mara. Those are two. Um
• 9:41
  >> there you go.
• 9:42
  >> Um but I think we understand that like
• 9:44
  when you play a game of Highguard,
• 9:47
  >> no matter what the particulars of of the
• 9:49
  the background and the lore are, the
• 9:52
  game is about something. There's a
• 9:54
  narrative experience to the game. And we
• 9:56
  know that because, you know, famously,
• 9:58
  as I bring up on this podcast all the
• 10:00
  time, death of the author, meaning does
• 10:02
  not belong to the author. It belongs to
• 10:04
  the reader. And meaning is generated
• 10:07
  between the text and the reader. But the
• 10:09
  thing that's interesting about
• 10:10
  multiplayer games is that it's uh the
• 10:13
  only medium where that meaning is now
• 10:15
  co-authored.
• 10:16
  >> Yes. And that's like
• 10:20
  the that's really cool to me because
• 10:22
  there's something there's something kind
• 10:23
  of funny going on, right? Where you see
• 10:25
  over the past couple of days, we've had
• 10:27
  this uh huge PR push for uh Blizzard's
• 10:32
  new Overwatch update. And something that
• 10:35
  they talk about in that update is that
• 10:37
  they are really leaning in to story and
• 10:40
  narrative and what they consider that to
• 10:42
  be.
• 10:43
  >> Yes. No. Yes. This is so character
• 10:45
  trailers and lore and background and the
• 10:48
  stuff that you have to read and stuff
• 10:50
  that you have to watch and it is
• 10:51
  completely divorced from the actual it
• 10:54
  is a complete misunderstanding of what
• 10:56
  the actual narrative elements of that
• 10:59
  game are because it has nothing to do
• 11:01
  with what you are experiencing playing
• 11:03
  the game. It is instead trying to fool
• 11:05
  you into buying into a story that
• 11:07
  doesn't actually exist in the game. This
• 11:09
  is why something like we've talked about
• 11:10
  this uh when we were playing a lot of
• 11:12
  like Marvel rivals earlier this year and
• 11:14
  then even or last year rather and then
• 11:16
  also like um in with like High Guard and
• 11:18
  Overwatch obviously fits into this thing
• 11:20
  about like I just like
• 11:22
  >> hate like character barks
• 11:25
  >> where it's like you start the match and
• 11:26
  you have like 20 seconds everyone's
• 11:28
  loading in and then like my character
• 11:29
  says something to your character that's
• 11:31
  like fancy seeing you here after what
• 11:33
  happened last time and they're like it's
• 11:35
  not going to be like last time lady or
• 11:37
  whatever you You know what I mean? And
• 11:38
  it's like um terrible cuz it's like it's
• 11:42
  like uh not how story is conveyed, not
• 11:46
  how narratives are told through these
• 11:48
  like cool like three sentences, you
• 11:51
  know? And it doesn't like none of that
• 11:52
  makes me say like, oh, I got to look
• 11:54
  into this. Oh, I got to see what's going
• 11:56
  on here. Because it's removed it's
• 11:58
  removed from the way that like meaning
• 12:00
  is given to us through video games, you
• 12:02
  know?
• 12:02
  >> Yeah. And it's funny. I think like when
• 12:05
  we talk about meaning and we talk about
• 12:06
  story and stuff, something kind of a a
• 12:08
  drum that I have been beating a lot
• 12:11
  lately is how, you know, on on this
• 12:13
  podcast where we're interested in how we
• 12:15
  talk about video games, I've noticed
• 12:17
  that there is a um kind of congealing of
• 12:20
  plot, story, and narrative. And these
• 12:23
  words are and I think like I'm less
• 12:25
  attached to specific definitions of
• 12:27
  these words and more attached to when
• 12:30
  you an individual uses them. Are you
• 12:33
  trying to do something specific and are
• 12:34
  you being consistent? Now if anybody
• 12:37
  would like the tip I would tell you very
• 12:40
  easy rule to follow in your little head
• 12:41
  plot the sequence of events as presented
• 12:44
  by the sto by the by the by the game we
• 12:47
  can say by the game the book the movie
• 12:48
  whatever it is the story is the uh the
• 12:51
  causal or emotional arc that could be
• 12:54
  told from those events could be told is
• 12:56
  important because the the plot the stuff
• 12:58
  that happens the story what it's about
• 13:00
  what is the story
• 13:02
  >> you know this is a story about loss boom
• 13:05
  okay
• 13:05
  >> and Then the narrative completely
• 13:07
  different thing. This is uh you know you
• 13:09
  you hear the expression narrative arc a
• 13:10
  lot right and the reason why we like
• 13:13
  pairing those words together is because
• 13:15
  narrative is how meaning is produced
• 13:16
  through structure mechanics and um other
• 13:19
  like rhetorical devices. So when you're
• 13:21
  talking about the methods through which
• 13:24
  the narrative devices that's what we're
• 13:26
  talking about when we mean narrative.
• 13:28
  And I think like I love talking about
• 13:30
  these multiplayer games because they
• 13:32
  they appear to people talking about
• 13:34
  games as these completely separate
• 13:36
  animals from single player narrative
• 13:38
  experiences, but they are really not.
• 13:41
  Because if you look at like the the
• 13:43
  dumbest example you can imagine, Super
• 13:45
  Mario Odyssey,
• 13:47
  like what is Super what is the story of
• 13:49
  Super Mario Odyssey? Are you about to
• 13:52
  tell me that it has something to do with
• 13:53
  Bowser and the Brutals and and getting
• 13:56
  married to Peach?
• 13:57
  That's what it's about. That's what the
• 13:59
  game is about.
• 14:00
  >> It's it's this thing where it's it's
• 14:01
  like like that is what the story is, but
• 14:07
  like what but what are you doing? Is
• 14:08
  that is that how you what meaning are
• 14:11
  you making out of actually playing it?
• 14:12
  And I think it's interesting you bring
• 14:14
  that up based on they talk about like
• 14:16
  multiplayer games and and then the the
• 14:19
  meaning that comes from those games. The
• 14:22
  meaning of
• 14:25
  Marvel Rivals little character bugs has
• 14:27
  nothing to do with
• 14:30
  playing Marvel Rivals with your friends.
• 14:32
  >> No. Exactly. And this is why I think
• 14:34
  having these bespoke terms actually does
• 14:36
  a lot of work for being able to develop
• 14:39
  the critical tools through which we talk
• 14:41
  about games. Because I can tell you, I
• 14:42
  think it's easy. The the Super Mario
• 14:44
  Odyssey, the plot is Bowser kidnaps
• 14:47
  Princess Peach and forces her to marry
• 14:49
  him. That is the plot. And I can I can
• 14:51
  go through and I can tell you about the
• 14:52
  different kingdoms and whatever. That's
• 14:53
  the plot. The story, this is again could
• 14:57
  that important word. What the story, the
• 14:59
  the emotional or causal arc that could
• 15:01
  be told from those events. I would say
• 15:04
  it's about
• 15:06
  possession and pursuit and entitlement.
• 15:09
  It is about the tug of curiosity,
• 15:12
  chasing after a thing you want. Mario,
• 15:14
  the, you know, chasing after trying to
• 15:17
  find these moons in the same way that
• 15:19
  he's running through all of these worlds
• 15:20
  looking for Princess Peach. There is,
• 15:22
  there is a there is a emotional story
• 15:25
  being told there that is fulfilled by
• 15:27
  the actions of the video game that has
• 15:29
  nothing to do with, you know, it's
• 15:31
  something that you experience and you
• 15:32
  feel playing it. And then the narrative,
• 15:34
  how how that is how the game produces
• 15:37
  meaning. So, you can talk about the
• 15:39
  economy of the moons. What is the
• 15:40
  economy of the moons doing to your
• 15:42
  emotional experience playing the game?
• 15:44
  It's definitely doing something because
• 15:45
  so many people have so much to say about
• 15:46
  it. The mechanic of being able to
• 15:48
  inhabit other bodies constantly, is that
• 15:51
  doing something to you in terms of um
• 15:53
  identity, the recontextualization in the
• 15:54
  post game, the fragmented urgency of the
• 15:57
  different worlds? Like, these are these
• 15:59
  are narrative mechanics. This is how
• 16:00
  it's how the game is producing the
• 16:02
  meaning that you feel. And I think that
• 16:04
  in a in a multiplayer game, all I would
• 16:07
  all I would ask is that if you are going
• 16:09
  to interrogate what it's doing, I think
• 16:11
  maybe a good baseline is to say, what is
• 16:14
  the plot? What is the story? What is the
• 16:16
  narrative? Because then all of a sudden
• 16:18
  now you've got these three things going
• 16:19
  on and you can't just say it's just it's
• 16:22
  just this one thing cuz it's not it's
• 16:24
  never just one thing. And I think games
• 16:26
  are so interesting because you because
• 16:28
  like
• 16:30
  I like to think about the things that
• 16:32
  you just said uh in like uh simpler
• 16:34
  words. So like the plot is like what
• 16:36
  right? So like
• 16:38
  >> yeah no no just like plot is like what
• 16:40
  is it? um
• 16:42
  >> uh uh uh story is like what's it about
• 16:45
  and then um the narrative is like how is
• 16:48
  it told, right? And so like what's
• 16:51
  interesting about games is I think they
• 16:53
  on a gametoame basis they're going to
• 16:55
  lean on those three things differently
• 16:57
  and they're going to weight those things
• 16:59
  differently. What is the plot
• 17:04
  >> of Highguard?
• 17:06
  I don't know and I really don't care
• 17:08
  because the game does not emphasize that
• 17:10
  particularly strongly or even a game
• 17:12
  like Fortnite. Fortnite like has a like
• 17:14
  a plot. I think
• 17:17
  I could not be more divorced from that.
• 17:20
  >> To tell you the truth though, I think if
• 17:21
  I'm if I'm doing it if I'm doing the
• 17:23
  exogetic reading, I'm going to say that
• 17:24
  the plot starts at the title screen and
• 17:27
  that's my plot. I'm I'm doing a
• 17:29
  >> because that's your experience of it,
• 17:30
  right? And I think that's actually
• 17:31
  interesting and I think that's an
• 17:32
  interesting way to frame it. Right. But
• 17:34
  if we're just like looking at like the
• 17:35
  lore of Fortnite, right? Like
• 17:37
  >> Yeah. Right.
• 17:38
  >> I couldn't give less of a riot.
• 17:40
  >> It's funny. I I literally think that
• 17:41
  that stuff is like is like none of the
• 17:44
  three things I named. I'm like that is
• 17:47
  like it's off to the side. It's Yeah.
• 17:49
  >> Cuz then you think about like all of
• 17:50
  this like this new Overwatch, we're
• 17:52
  going to really emphasize the story and
• 17:54
  it's like none of it is in the game.
• 17:57
  >> None of it is in the game. So it
• 17:58
  actually doesn't count. You know what I
• 17:59
  mean? Mhm.
• 18:00
  >> Um but when like thinking about um like
• 18:05
  multiplayer games then and the idea of
• 18:07
  like
• 18:08
  >> you don't like the game, you like your
• 18:10
  friends.
• 18:11
  >> Please
• 18:12
  >> you come back to the narrative for me
• 18:17
  >> because it's like well how is the game
• 18:19
  making you feel this?
• 18:21
  >> And it is through those social
• 18:22
  interactions. It is through interfacing
• 18:24
  like like interfacing with the game to
• 18:27
  uh uh aid those social interactions. It
• 18:29
  is it's all of it
• 18:31
  >> because you know what you you know what
• 18:32
  happens there. It's that that is so
• 18:34
  true. the the the narrative lever of
• 18:37
  multiplayer gives you access to all of
• 18:39
  this stuff that is much like it's it's I
• 18:43
  would say it's further out of reach in a
• 18:44
  single player game because multiplayer
• 18:46
  games can surface legitimate feelings of
• 18:50
  performance anxiety and jealousy and
• 18:52
  resentment and guilt and relief and huge
• 18:56
  relief. And it's like
• 18:59
  ignoring that that is something that the
• 19:01
  that that feeling is something that is
• 19:04
  coming from an interaction with a friend
• 19:06
  and not from the game. That's crazy to
• 19:08
  me.
• 19:09
  >> I have never played a game and felt
• 19:12
  embarrassed on my own. Do you know what
• 19:14
  I mean? But in Fortnite when I when I
• 19:16
  choke when I choke hard and then it's
• 19:18
  like oh because I choked it was like
• 19:19
  dominoes and like we all went down and
• 19:21
  it was a whole thing like socially in
• 19:24
  I'm embarrassed, right? And and like
• 19:27
  that has not happened when I've been
• 19:28
  playing I don't know uh Final Fantasy,
• 19:32
  right? Like like that doesn't happen
• 19:34
  because it's it's like if you if you die
• 19:36
  the boss like well no one saw that. That
• 19:37
  wasn't like a social thing. But what
• 19:40
  does that feeling tell me about that
• 19:42
  experience? And is that not is that not
• 19:45
  just as valid as feeling really
• 19:47
  introspective and touched when whatever
• 19:50
  first party uh big PlayStation game is
• 19:53
  about fatherhood and the relationship
• 19:56
  between parents. Is that feeling not not
• 19:58
  just as interesting and just as
• 20:00
  compelling to talk about and write about
• 20:02
  and discuss?
• 20:03
  >> It is. That's why I think multiplayer
• 20:05
  games um they're not this critical
• 20:10
  failure as much as they simply expose
• 20:12
  the critic. And it is something that
• 20:14
  like you if if you don't have the tools
• 20:18
  and if you don't have a framework for
• 20:20
  breaking these games down then every
• 20:22
  then it's going to be hard to identify
• 20:25
  the elements that are impacting your
• 20:27
  experience and are having an effect on
• 20:28
  you. Yes. And um I I think that
• 20:32
  something kind of funny that we can see
• 20:34
  and why um critical analysis why
• 20:38
  multiplayer games resist critical
• 20:39
  analysis in the gaming space is because
• 20:42
  so much um video game sense making
• 20:47
  reputation making is done post hawk is
• 20:50
  done years after the fact in like
• 20:52
  YouTube videos and stuff and like where
• 20:54
  reputified reputations form and because
• 20:57
  these multiplayer games are liinal and
• 20:59
  they have to be uh examined in the
• 21:02
  moment and you can't kind of like all
• 21:04
  these service games you can't kind of
• 21:05
  like go back to them or the way that
• 21:07
  they were years and years years down the
• 21:08
  line. They resist the most popular form
• 21:12
  of um of like video game reputation
• 21:16
  building which is the years later
• 21:19
  retrospective YouTube video that says
• 21:21
  this is a gem that you need to have
• 21:22
  played. You know what I'm saying?
• 21:24
  >> Yes. I wrote about this in one of the
• 21:25
  essays a few weeks ago at this point
• 21:27
  probably a month and a half ago when I
• 21:29
  talk about like how I'm bummed that
• 21:31
  Simpsons Fortnite is gone.
• 21:33
  >> It's just gone. And and it's interesting
• 21:35
  because that's a small piece of a larger
• 21:37
  game, right? But like that specifically
• 21:39
  that game whatever you whatever that is
• 21:42
  >> does not get to exist anymore. And so if
• 21:44
  I were like I like I can't access it. I
• 21:46
  can't like I could talk about it, right?
• 21:48
  But like I couldn't make a video about
• 21:49
  it because I don't have footage of it,
• 21:50
  right? and I can't get it's impossible
• 21:51
  to get from from like for me to capture
• 21:53
  myself, you know. And um I I think like
• 21:57
  what you're talking about this idea of
• 21:58
  like game like sensemaking and and like
• 22:01
  retrospection uh or introspective, you
• 22:04
  know, whatever um is fascinating because
• 22:07
  how many times when you look at lists of
• 22:10
  games that are the best games of all
• 22:11
  time, the 25 most important game or best
• 22:13
  games of all time, whatever, how often
• 22:15
  are multiplayer games on there? And now
• 22:17
  it is interesting and it's worth
• 22:18
  pointing out that hey um multiplayer
• 22:21
  gaming and sort of the way that we know
• 22:22
  it right now is relatively new, right?
• 22:24
  Multiplayer gaming has been around since
• 22:26
  arcade cabinets with like Street Fighter
• 22:27
  and whatever or like Pong, right? It's a
• 22:30
  multiplayer game. But as far as like
• 22:31
  what we're talking about, it's
• 22:33
  relatively new phenomenon with the with
• 22:35
  the popularization and uh availability
• 22:37
  of like the internet. Um, but it doesn't
• 22:41
  get to the these sorts of games don't
• 22:43
  get to have their place in sort of the
• 22:45
  gaming cannon. It feels like because we
• 22:48
  view them as toys and not as um works of
• 22:53
  art.
• 22:54
  >> Oh yeah. I mean 100%. And it's it's this
• 22:56
  funny thing too where it's like what is
• 22:58
  it what does it take for a multiplayer
• 23:01
  game to kind of reach that critical
• 23:02
  consensus that we decide it's important?
• 23:05
  And I think it's like consensus is the
• 23:07
  key word, but um you know once once a
• 23:11
  game becomes so big that like the games
• 23:14
  media class like cannot ignore it, there
• 23:16
  is this kind of like tipping of the cap
• 23:18
  that must occur. It's like Fortnite has
• 23:20
  gotten to this place where I don't think
• 23:22
  there's really much if any uh critical
• 23:25
  examinations or critical writing about
• 23:27
  Fortnite being done on any prominent
• 23:30
  level, but every single person in games
• 23:32
  does have to go, h well, Fortnite is
• 23:35
  pretty good. And then they just kind of
• 23:37
  move on in the way that like they would
• 23:38
  never you can't do that with like a
• 23:41
  single player game. You can't just kind
• 23:43
  of do that. You know what I'm saying?
• 23:44
  >> Okay, think about this like like how
• 23:46
  many and I guess I don't have this
• 23:48
  information. I don't have like the hard
• 23:50
  facts of this, so understand that like,
• 23:52
  hey, someone could do the work and say
• 23:53
  like Peter's actually talking out of his
• 23:55
  ass. That's fair, but I'm just going off
• 23:58
  of like gut check how it feels.
• 24:02
  How much critical analysis has been
• 24:04
  written about The Last of Us Part Two
• 24:07
  >> versus Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
• 24:08
  >> How much critical analysis has been
• 24:10
  written about
• 24:12
  Fortnite,
• 24:12
  >> dude? How much critical analysis has
• 24:14
  been written about uh the the final
• 24:17
  moment of The Last of Us one versus
• 24:19
  >> Exactly. versus Versus versus V versus
• 24:21
  Fortnite, a game that is like eclipses
• 24:24
  that game. Um
• 24:27
  like 100fold, 800fold, a thousandfold,
• 24:31
  you know, in terms of like how important
• 24:34
  that game is and how big that game is.
• 24:37
  and just we're not we're just not
• 24:38
  talking about these games in a way that
• 24:39
  I feel like is um uh compelling or or or
• 24:44
  fascinating or anything like that
• 24:45
  because I feel like right now especially
• 24:47
  it just is reduced to did you like the
• 24:49
  game or did you like hanging out with
• 24:50
  your friends? Yeah, it's funny, too. But
• 24:52
  there's also this um almost
• 24:55
  uh Lauren Burlant discomfort is the
• 24:57
  point kind of idea where it's um how
• 25:00
  many video games, even hard ones, do
• 25:03
  people like because they because the
• 25:06
  game is So, okay, a key difference
• 25:08
  between a single player and a
• 25:09
  multiplayer game is that a multiplayer
• 25:11
  game is not designed for the player to
• 25:13
  win.
• 25:14
  >> Say that again. A multi Yeah. Yeah.
• 25:15
  Right. Because it's it's a competition.
• 25:18
  >> Yeah. Yeah. So like any single player
• 25:20
  game, even if it's like your Souls like
• 25:21
  or your Silk Song or whatever it is that
• 25:23
  people are obsessed with these days,
• 25:24
  it's like it is it is designed for the
• 25:28
  player to see the game and like win.
• 25:31
  Yes. Whereas that kind of um that kind
• 25:34
  of foothold is not quite the same in a
• 25:37
  multiplayer game. And I would say that
• 25:40
  like that is something that
• 25:44
  is a real challenge for people writing
• 25:46
  about games because we are so used to
• 25:49
  games that make us feel good. We are so
• 25:51
  used to the beating a big boss and that
• 25:56
  being some and because but like
• 25:57
  multiplayer games again because they
• 25:59
  produce stress and embarrassment and
• 26:01
  resentment it it turns into um I see
• 26:05
  this all the time the emotional
• 26:07
  messiness that is produced from a
• 26:09
  multiplayer game ends up being looked at
• 26:11
  as a failure of its design. It's also
• 26:14
  like um everyone loves a hard game until
• 26:17
  it's an actually until it's a game that
• 26:19
  you actually have to learn something
• 26:20
  for.
• 26:20
  >> Yeah. No, exactly. Well, learning
• 26:22
  something is the the gamer's biggest
• 26:24
  fear. And I think we saw that so clearly
• 26:25
  with something like Highguard where um I
• 26:29
  don't know how many times I saw this
• 26:32
  kind of revulsion levied at Highguard's
• 26:35
  tutorial, which I don't know. I think
• 26:38
  you and I maybe present as young men of
• 26:42
  average intelligence. And
• 26:44
  >> I am going to say that I I'm going to
• 26:47
  say that I am somebody who is not even
• 26:50
  typically very proficient at these kinds
• 26:52
  of games. I didn't I didn't think about
• 26:55
  that tutorial. I thought I thought it
• 26:56
  was incredibly simple and
• 26:58
  >> very regular regular thing
• 27:02
  average like
• 27:03
  >> but it's this weird thing where because
• 27:05
  it's it's not kind of like dragging you
• 27:08
  along by the collar in the way that a
• 27:11
  single player video game tutorial might
• 27:13
  and because maybe some anxious feelings
• 27:15
  are produced when you go online and play
• 27:17
  the game about what you are supposed to
• 27:19
  be doing and how you're supposed to be
• 27:21
  doing it. All of the sudden you go, "Oh,
• 27:24
  this game is having an an emotional
• 27:26
  effect on me." And it's not that you
• 27:27
  don't like it. It's just that it is the
• 27:28
  emotional effect that you don't want.
• 27:31
  That's it.
• 27:31
  >> Yes. What's this interesting thing, too,
• 27:33
  right? Where like I actually do think
• 27:34
  that tutorial is pretty much just
• 27:36
  dragging you along cuz it's just like go
• 27:38
  do this. Okay, good. Go do this.
• 27:40
  >> Simple. I wire the Yeah.
• 27:42
  >> But but then um the the problem is I
• 27:45
  think with that game specifically is it
• 27:47
  is asking you to learn a new thing.
• 27:50
  It's it's kind of an interesting mashup
• 27:51
  of game mechanics, right? It's like
• 27:52
  capture the flag meets like search and
• 27:55
  destroy
• 27:56
  >> and that's unusual, but the fact that it
• 28:00
  is not something that you can just like
• 28:01
  look at like without playing it and go
• 28:03
  like, "Okay, I understand what's going
• 28:04
  on here." You know, uh even though I
• 28:06
  think you kind of can if you've like
• 28:08
  watched a little bit about it or or like
• 28:11
  read anything about it. I don't know. Um
• 28:13
  >> it's just this idea of like serving the
• 28:15
  player in a specific way.
• 28:16
  >> No. Yes. Because think about like that
• 28:19
  new B like a new Batman game or a new
• 28:21
  Spider-Man game comes out and it's like
• 28:22
  what is the thing that everybody says
• 28:24
  like we know, right? Yeah. It makes you
• 28:26
  feel
• 28:26
  >> feel like Yes.
• 28:27
  >> Yeah. And it's funny like if we consider
• 28:30
  multiplayer this kind of um actual
• 28:33
  performance of the self actually you you
• 28:35
  must perform it as the thing it wants
• 28:37
  you to realize. Yeah, it is not as
• 28:42
  frictionless to you as being Spider-Man
• 28:46
  2 might be. So all of a sudden, you
• 28:49
  know, social life as it exists
• 28:50
  >> in reality is is fundamentally
• 28:53
  theatrical.
• 28:54
  >> And um we're all kind of performing
• 28:56
  roles based on our our context and our
• 28:58
  audience, but multiplayer games actually
• 29:00
  have the ability to literalize this
• 29:02
  because you're not just being made to
• 29:04
  feel like a character. you are being
• 29:07
  asked to perform at that level.
• 29:10
  >> Yes. Which is which that's a challenge.
• 29:12
  Yeah.
• 29:12
  >> You know what else I find interesting
• 29:13
  about this too? When thinking about like
• 29:15
  uh uh plot, narrative, story with these
• 29:18
  sorts of games. Sure.
• 29:19
  >> Um
• 29:21
  >> you know, we said like it's interesting
• 29:22
  because they are kind of unlike other
• 29:23
  things. these games like like
• 29:25
  multiplayer games like live service
• 29:26
  games specifically are kind of like
• 29:27
  unlike
• 29:29
  other uh mediums because they do not
• 29:34
  have these sort of set boundaries,
• 29:35
  right? Like a book starts and ends, you
• 29:37
  know, a movie starts and ends. Most
• 29:40
  video games have beginnings, middles,
• 29:43
  and ends.
• 29:44
  >> What I would actually compare these
• 29:46
  sorts of like live service games to, I
• 29:48
  would kind of compare them to like
• 29:49
  Shonen Jump manga.
• 29:51
  >> Whoa. where like like is Fortnite not
• 29:54
  just One Piece in that it's this thing
• 29:56
  that's going to keep going and going and
• 29:58
  going and going and it's bigger and
• 30:00
  bigger and bigger and bigger and like
• 30:02
  Fortnite you can jump in at any time and
• 30:04
  then go from there and and like
• 30:05
  something like One Piece is sort of
• 30:07
  similar in that like you can start from
• 30:09
  the beginning which is you know unlike
• 30:11
  Fortnite or something like that you can
• 30:13
  start from the beginning but also like
• 30:15
  it is uh simple enough that's not a dig
• 30:18
  but that it's just true like it is it is
• 30:20
  simple enough that you could probably
• 30:21
  pick up one of those volumes in the
• 30:23
  middle there and go like I kind of get
• 30:24
  what's what these characters are and and
• 30:26
  and go from there. Um and and so like
• 30:29
  the idea of like starting like sitting
• 30:31
  down to play a brand new multiplayer
• 30:33
  game feels a little bit like picking up
• 30:35
  a the first chapter of an ongoing Shonen
• 30:38
  Jump manga because you're like I don't
• 30:39
  know if I'm going to see this thing to
• 30:40
  the end because I don't know how long
• 30:42
  it's going to go for. But I am
• 30:44
  interested enough to read a few volumes
• 30:45
  and see sort of like what this thing is
• 30:48
  about and then I can say oh I liked it.
• 30:50
  I played it for three months. You know
• 30:51
  what I mean? Oh, I liked it. I I read,
• 30:53
  you know, six volumes of Dan Dan or
• 30:55
  whatever.
• 30:55
  >> But there but it but it resists that
• 30:57
  kind of gamer inclination of seeing
• 30:59
  something through
• 31:00
  >> completion.
• 31:01
  >> Yes. Yes. 100%ing something, checking,
• 31:05
  you know, things off a off a list. And
• 31:06
  that's funny too because I think it's um
• 31:09
  uh the kind of conceptually how failure
• 31:12
  operate operates in a multiplayer game
• 31:14
  is actually so different from how it
• 31:16
  operates from a single player game
• 31:17
  because single player game it's just
• 31:19
  about kind of like increasing the
• 31:21
  distance just for a moment between you
• 31:24
  and the thing that you want. So, but
• 31:27
  like if you think about um I don't know
• 31:31
  who like like the the famous like Samuel
• 31:35
  Beckett wrote about failure a lot in a
• 31:37
  lot of his work and it was like the
• 31:39
  condition of failure not necessarily the
• 31:43
  redemptive arc of failure which I think
• 31:44
  is more in line with single player video
• 31:46
  games. So if you think like uh failure
• 31:50
  is something you inhabit rather than
• 31:52
  something you overcome, I think that
• 31:54
  multiplayer games kind of share that
• 31:56
  philosophy because the loss doesn't
• 31:58
  inevitably lead to uh kind of like
• 32:01
  narrative closure. It just leads to
• 32:04
  another night where things will probably
• 32:07
  go wrong in a slightly different way,
• 32:08
  but the stories are different every
• 32:10
  single time. And there's something in um
• 32:12
  the persistence that I think is not
• 32:13
  ultimately rewarding to the player. It
• 32:16
  is the the the condition of failure is
• 32:18
  kind of the point of it. I'm actually
• 32:19
  thinking a lot about Mario Kart World
• 32:20
  when I talk about this because yeah, the
• 32:23
  the kind of idea that there is something
• 32:25
  wrong with that game because a lot of
• 32:27
  players would say, "Oh, the tracks
• 32:30
  between the tracks, there's like too
• 32:32
  many straightaways. There's not enough
• 32:33
  opportunities for me to like demonstrate
• 32:36
  my skill." And that's such a it's such a
• 32:38
  funny thing to me because I'm like, what
• 32:40
  if that's the point? Like what if it's
• 32:43
  >> or or it's it's this interesting thing.
• 32:44
  I saw someone um talking about Mario
• 32:46
  Kart World specifically uh where they
• 32:49
  had a clip of like Yeah, it's just so
• 32:50
  boring.
• 32:51
  >> Yeah, it's just so boring, dude.
• 32:52
  >> And and there were there were four clips
• 32:55
  all next to each other. It was someone
• 32:57
  driving on the straightaway just holding
• 32:59
  the A button, just driving straight. And
• 33:01
  then it was someone in the same
• 33:03
  straightaway doing whatever crazy random
• 33:06
  stuff you can do in that game where
• 33:07
  you're like flipping over stuff and
• 33:08
  bouncing off street lights and whatever.
• 33:11
  And then it shows Mario 64 the the very
• 33:15
  beginning and them just walking up to
• 33:17
  the castle and then it shows someone
• 33:20
  doing that same bit from Mario 64
• 33:23
  jumping. Do you know what I mean? And
• 33:24
  doing the triple jump and doing the back
• 33:26
  flips and whatever. And it's it's this
• 33:27
  thing about like you know is there a a
• 33:30
  wrong way to play a game? Uh, no. In the
• 33:33
  fact that you can do anything, but the
• 33:36
  way that you actually decide whether or
• 33:38
  not you're going to engage with those
• 33:40
  mechanics does matter.
• 33:42
  >> Dude, High Guard is so boring because
• 33:44
  there's that 90-second period where
• 33:47
  >> nothing's happening actually. Nothing's
• 33:48
  happening. And it's so funny. I like
• 33:51
  like just you describing that is like
• 33:53
  and then you have in the same tweet the
• 33:55
  video of um like Marvel rivals or
• 33:57
  Overwatch when the opposing team is like
• 34:00
  setting up and you're just you're just
• 34:02
  behind a wall just like standing
• 34:03
  standing there just putting sprays up.
• 34:05
  >> So much worse than high this is so much
• 34:07
  better than high guard rather. Yeah.
• 34:08
  >> Um it kind of reminds me of there's like
• 34:10
  this um
• 34:12
  >> the the what would it be like um
• 34:17
  Michelle Desert. So, it's this uh
• 34:19
  tactics versus strategy. I think
• 34:20
  multiplayer games are, if you think
• 34:22
  about strategy, uh in in single player
• 34:24
  games, they're strategy guides. You can
• 34:26
  look up how you're supposed to beat the
• 34:27
  game. You can look up the system that
• 34:29
  you need to participate in to gain
• 34:31
  success. Um that's strategy. Uh
• 34:35
  multiplayer games don't have that. You
• 34:36
  can't just look up a strategy guide to
• 34:38
  how you're supposed to do something and
• 34:39
  find success. Whereas, uh that would
• 34:42
  this would be multiplayer would fall
• 34:43
  into the tactics realm, their tactical
• 34:45
  spaces. So no matter how the system is
• 34:48
  designed, the meaning emerges ultimately
• 34:50
  from the friction between players all
• 34:52
  navigating it together moment to moment.
• 34:54
  And um there is like there is I think we
• 34:58
  are maybe a little bit too trained to
• 35:00
  derive meaning from the systems of
• 35:03
  strategy and maybe not well enough
• 35:05
  trained to uh interpret systems of
• 35:08
  tactics.
• 35:08
  >> Yeah. No, I 100% agree. And I think that
• 35:11
  comes down to like um if you are writing
• 35:15
  critically about one of these things,
• 35:17
  there is a certain level of like um
• 35:21
  understanding and uh
• 35:25
  practice
• 35:26
  >> that is required often in order to fully
• 35:29
  grasp how these situations play out and
• 35:32
  how these mechanics are are like
• 35:34
  interlocked with one another. that um
• 35:37
  not saying that that sort of stuff isn't
• 35:38
  in
• 35:41
  other video games like single player
• 35:42
  video games, but I'm thinking about like
• 35:43
  Elden Ring, right? Like that is a game
• 35:44
  that has a lot of systems and a lot of
• 35:46
  mechanics that you do need to practice
• 35:48
  and you do need to to learn if you want
• 35:49
  to beat that game. But to the point of
• 35:52
  what you're saying is like people have
• 35:55
  done blindfolded runs of Elden Ring.
• 35:59
  >> You could not do a blindfolded run of
• 36:01
  Fortnite, I don't think. Maybe you
• 36:03
  could, but but like it is it's what I'm
• 36:05
  saying is like it's a different sort of
• 36:06
  like beast because you have to like uh
• 36:08
  uh it's not the same set thing that
• 36:11
  happens every single time when you when
• 36:13
  you start up Fortnite or Highguard or
• 36:15
  Marvel Rivals or Counterstrike whatever
• 36:17
  because you are having to um
• 36:20
  uh interface with it differently. I
• 36:23
  would be curious also, so like I said
• 36:24
  like you couldn't do a blindfolded run
• 36:25
  of like a blindfolded win of of
• 36:28
  something like Fortnite because you can
• 36:29
  because like I've seen videos of like
• 36:31
  people who are like visually impaired
• 36:32
  playing these sorts of games. I would be
• 36:34
  curious to hear like what the difference
• 36:36
  in experience is for someone like that.
• 36:39
  M
• 36:40
  >> uh uh because I think they might have a
• 36:42
  a more uh
• 36:47
  if they are interfacing with game
• 36:48
  mechanics differently than than you or I
• 36:51
  based on just like what they are able to
• 36:52
  do or see or whatever. Um, I would be
• 36:54
  curious to hear like if they have a a
• 36:57
  more
• 36:59
  a maybe a deeper understanding of how
• 37:01
  these systems work and if if there's a
• 37:03
  way that they would talk about these
• 37:04
  sorts of games differently than than um
• 37:07
  the more traditional like media class of
• 37:09
  people. You know what I mean?
• 37:11
  >> Yeah. It's funny. I think you're
• 37:12
  something you're like approaching here
• 37:14
  is an oft referenced concept when we
• 37:18
  talk about games. Uh, friction.
• 37:21
  >> Yeah, sure. And
• 37:24
  that's a tough term. That's a tough term
• 37:26
  for a lot of people because I think I I
• 37:28
  most see it used to mean uh just
• 37:31
  difficulty.
• 37:31
  >> Difficulty. Yeah.
• 37:32
  >> Mhm. And I think that like maybe like I
• 37:36
  would if I was attempting to kind of
• 37:39
  like zone in on what you're talking
• 37:40
  about is this um
• 37:44
  difficulty I would try to define more as
• 37:46
  like a mechanical resistance whereas
• 37:47
  friction I would say is more relational.
• 37:50
  And so the kind of player that you're
• 37:52
  talking about, that would be more of a
• 37:53
  relational resistance than a mechanical
• 37:55
  one.
• 37:56
  >> But but I wonder if having like a
• 37:57
  heightened sense of the that like
• 37:59
  mechanical resistance um reveals
• 38:02
  different things about the game.
• 38:04
  >> You know what I mean? And and would lead
• 38:06
  itself to having different conversations
• 38:08
  about it.
• 38:10
  >> Um because, you know, you can't just
• 38:12
  rely on the same things that everyone
• 38:14
  else is relying on in order to
• 38:15
  understand it.
• 38:16
  >> Um so I I have a question then for you.
• 38:18
  So like returning sort of like the the
• 38:20
  initial like thrust of the conversation
• 38:21
  about like you know you don't like the
• 38:23
  game, you just like hanging out with
• 38:24
  your friends. How do you think you know
• 38:26
  we talked about like
• 38:27
  >> there is a certain like level of like
• 38:29
  social interaction that comes with uh uh
• 38:33
  playing these sorts of games, but how do
• 38:35
  you respond to that claim about you
• 38:38
  actually don't like Fortnite, you like
• 38:40
  playing it with your friends?
• 38:42
  >> Yeah. Um, I find that to be this kind of
• 38:48
  discarding of how much anyone ever puts
• 38:53
  into the media that they consume.
• 38:56
  >> Um, yeah. So, like I am bringing a
• 39:00
  unique perspective and unique
• 39:03
  experiences, you unique unique memory,
• 39:06
  identity, history, whatever to every
• 39:09
  single game that I play. Mhm.
• 39:11
  >> And that perspective, those elements
• 39:14
  that I am bringing to a game that I play
• 39:16
  is going to inform the way that I write
• 39:18
  about it.
• 39:19
  >> Um, if if it does not, if you could
• 39:23
  replace work I am producing, if you
• 39:25
  could swap it between the two of us and
• 39:27
  you publish an essay that I wrote and no
• 39:31
  meaning is lost and nothing flags as
• 39:33
  odd, then that is a failure on my part.
• 39:36
  Mhm.
• 39:36
  >> So I think when somebody says
• 39:39
  you don't like the game, you just like
• 39:41
  playing with your friends, what they
• 39:42
  fail to understand is that
• 39:46
  that is everything. That is like saying
• 39:50
  you don't like Toy Story. You just have
• 39:52
  nostalgia for your action figures. You
• 39:55
  don't like that movie about the dog. You
• 39:57
  just love dogs. It's like it's like
• 39:59
  yeah, I brought something to the media
• 40:02
  that I consumed
• 40:04
  >> that is correct. That is the demands of
• 40:07
  art. You must buy in. Like I am sorry
• 40:10
  that I bought into the multiplayer game
• 40:12
  by playing it with my friends.
• 40:14
  >> I also I also don't think that you like
• 40:18
  >> I think most people actually know if a
• 40:19
  game they're playing is not good and if
• 40:20
  they're having fun with their friends. I
• 40:22
  don't like that game uh content warning.
• 40:24
  It's not that I don't like it. I just
• 40:25
  think it's not that good. Like it's it's
• 40:26
  fine. But it's one of those games that
• 40:28
  like people would call like friend slop.
• 40:30
  Um, it's it's a game where you go and
• 40:32
  and you and your friends are trying to
• 40:34
  uh discover like monsters in these like
• 40:37
  like scary areas and you're trying to
• 40:39
  film them to go viral on YouTube and
• 40:42
  that's fun and it's interesting, but
• 40:44
  also the game itself is just not that
• 40:46
  good. And I had fun playing it, but it's
• 40:48
  not a game that I've returned to a lot
• 40:50
  because like the mechanics just aren't
• 40:53
  that fun. and I had I had a good time
• 40:56
  with my friends and stuff, but like I I
• 40:58
  think that it's this sort of experience
• 40:59
  where
• 41:01
  most players are actually able in in my
• 41:03
  experience able to identify when
• 41:06
  something is honestly not that fun and
• 41:08
  they'd rather do something else. I think
• 41:09
  something like Peak is a great example
• 41:11
  of this. Peak is like
• 41:14
  sold what like 3 million copies. It's
• 41:16
  like huge, right? And that's a game that
• 41:18
  yes is a fun thing to do with your
• 41:20
  friends, but also I think the game
• 41:22
  itself is actually quite good and the
• 41:24
  game itself lends it lends uh itself to
• 41:28
  facilitating a good time with your
• 41:29
  friends because of the positions it puts
• 41:31
  you in.
• 41:31
  >> It's just weird though because I don't
• 41:32
  want to like wade into this strange like
• 41:34
  objectivity discourse about what the
• 41:36
  game is because the game does not exist
• 41:39
  without my experience of playing the
• 41:41
  game. So, it's like it's it's like,
• 41:42
  "Okay, Jake, actually, you should judge
• 41:44
  this game based off of watching a
• 41:46
  YouTube video of it." That is how you
• 41:47
  get the most objective analysis of what
• 41:49
  the game is. It's like, "Shut up." Like,
• 41:50
  who cares? What do we even do? Like,
• 41:52
  what's the point of any of this if
• 41:53
  that's what we're doing?
• 41:53
  >> It just reminds me of like every year at
• 41:55
  the end of the year and it's like coming
• 41:56
  up with like, "Well, what is the best
• 41:58
  game of the year?" And it's like, "Well,
• 41:59
  take yourself out of it." Like,
• 42:00
  [ __ ] I played the game. I can't
• 42:02
  take myself out of it. I had an
• 42:04
  experience. It's It's literally
• 42:06
  impossible for me for me to do that. And
• 42:07
  I know of like preaching to the choir. I
• 42:09
  think like I think most people listening
• 42:10
  to this do like I think we never need to
• 42:13
  do unless something comes up an episode
• 42:17
  about objectivity discourse cuz it's
• 42:19
  just silly cuz it's just like it would
• 42:21
  be a 30-se secondond episode. So maybe
• 42:22
  we do do that one.
• 42:24
  >> You don't actually you don't actually
• 42:26
  like Claire obscure expedition 33. you
• 42:29
  just liked having um something to do in
• 42:33
  your free time that made your
• 42:36
  >> feel a certain way
• 42:37
  >> that made your that made your anxieties
• 42:40
  feel more legitimate.
• 42:41
  >> Yeah.
• 42:42
  >> Sorry.
• 42:42
  >> Oh [ __ ] Yeah. Well, you got you got my
• 42:44
  ass.
• 42:45
  >> You you you just liked something that
• 42:47
  got you off your phone for a little bit.
• 42:49
  Like this is just this is just
• 42:50
  everything like Oh, you like
• 42:52
  >> It's so interesting, too. So, I um I
• 42:54
  like the the website backlogged.com.
• 42:57
  It's It's like letter box for video
• 42:58
  games essentially. And I I I
• 43:02
  >> put in an entry for Animal Crossing New
• 43:03
  Horizons and I'm sitting there looking
• 43:05
  at like how many stars out of five do I
• 43:07
  give this [ __ ] game? Impossible. It's
• 43:09
  an impossible question because like my
• 43:12
  latest video on YouTube is is like about
• 43:14
  that is about like my experience with
• 43:16
  this game. And so it exists in this
• 43:19
  place where I'm like am I talking when
• 43:20
  I'm giving it this score? I'm like
• 43:21
  trying to like rate it like am I talking
• 43:24
  about what it is as a game? Am I talking
• 43:26
  about my experience with it? How do I
• 43:29
  even begin to unpack that in such a such
• 43:32
  a um limited
• 43:36
  way, right? because it's impossible
• 43:39
  because my experience with that game and
• 43:40
  talking about that game and and like
• 43:41
  understanding where I fell with that
• 43:43
  video game uh is so intrinsically tied
• 43:47
  to
• 43:49
  my experience of playing it in the
• 43:50
  pandemic and my experience like feeling
• 43:53
  everything from the pandemic and my
• 43:54
  experience like with my then girlfriend
• 43:56
  now wife right in the pandemic
• 44:00
  how could I possibly remove that from
• 44:03
  that experience
• 44:04
  >> that's but see this is this just runs
• 44:05
  into a problem that like capital T,
• 44:08
  capital G, the gamer like could never
• 44:10
  understand, which is like you can give
• 44:13
  Animal Crossing New Horizons a 10 out of
• 44:16
  10 a few years ago and then give it like
• 44:20
  a five in 2026 and both of those are
• 44:24
  valid, worthwhile pieces of criticism to
• 44:28
  read, you know.
• 44:29
  >> Yes,
• 44:29
  >> there's a great um there's a handful of
• 44:31
  videos he's made at this point uh by uh
• 44:34
  Yako CMN on YouTube. um where he talks
• 44:36
  about like uh The Legend of Zelda: Tears
• 44:40
  of the Kingdom is a flawed 10 out of 10.
• 44:42
  And he talks about like like when people
• 44:44
  hear that they're like, "Oh, so you mean
• 44:45
  it's like an eight out of 10." And he's
• 44:46
  like, "No, no, it's a 10 out of 10 that
• 44:49
  I have some major issues with." And it's
• 44:51
  about how like understanding how a game
• 44:53
  feels and like what it makes you feel
• 44:54
  like is actually the really important
• 44:57
  part about it. And then like the actual
• 44:59
  technical details of it are are kind of
• 45:00
  like irrelevant. He has this I I have
• 45:02
  not watched it yet. Um, here's another
• 45:03
  video. Uh, Hades 2, same sort of feeling
• 45:06
  where it's like, no, it is an
• 45:07
  extraordinarily flawed game, but the
• 45:09
  experience that I had with it, um, is
• 45:12
  the thing that I'm thinking about. And
• 45:13
  so, yeah, we could talk, but the
• 45:14
  technical level, like, oh, yeah, this
• 45:16
  mechanic doesn't really like pay off
• 45:17
  here. Oh, the story beats didn't quite
• 45:19
  align, but it's like, no, no, but if the
• 45:20
  experience I had with it is this thing,
• 45:24
  then you cannot separate me from that.
• 45:26
  And I I feel a similar way about
• 45:28
  multiplayer games. There's this there's
• 45:29
  this funny thing with with the
• 45:30
  multiplayer games too about like I can
• 45:32
  like my friends but not like all
• 45:33
  multiplayer games. So there must be
• 45:35
  something happening there. Yeah. And
• 45:37
  it's funny. It's like that in my head at
• 45:40
  least something that I try to weigh out
• 45:41
  sometimes is the demands of the thing
• 45:46
  versus if I think that the game is like
• 45:48
  worth the demands or does something with
• 45:50
  those demands. So, this is kind of like
• 45:51
  a dumb comparison, but sometimes I think
• 45:53
  about um the Wii U, of which I am a
• 45:56
  noted hater,
• 45:57
  >> and the and and people will tell you all
• 46:00
  the time like, "Oh, the Wii U had good
• 46:02
  games." And then the first thing they'll
• 46:03
  say is something like Nintendo Land,
• 46:05
  which I find embarrassing for a lot of
• 46:06
  reasons, but that's neither here nor
• 46:08
  there. The something that I think is
• 46:10
  funny about something that I think is
• 46:11
  funny about Nintendo Land is that like
• 46:13
  if you want to play that game, if you
• 46:14
  want like the the the quoteunquote like
• 46:17
  >> experience of what that game offers, it
• 46:20
  is asking you to get like four people in
• 46:23
  the room. One of them's playing on the
• 46:25
  game pad. Three of them are playing with
• 46:27
  Wii remotes. You know what I'm talking
• 46:28
  about? You know this setup, this
• 46:29
  asymmetrical thing that they used to
• 46:31
  >> I'm pulling this up. I'm forgetting
• 46:32
  about this game. I'm remembering it
• 46:33
  right now because I'm like looking at
• 46:34
  it. Geez.
• 46:35
  >> And it's funny. It's like it's like
• 46:38
  Jake, you have to turn on your Wii U,
• 46:39
  which is going to take a little bit
• 46:40
  longer than you want it to turn on. And
• 46:43
  then, and then you're going to load into
• 46:44
  the game. And then after you load into
• 46:45
  the game, you're going to sync all of
• 46:47
  your Wii remotes. You're going to
• 46:48
  replace the batteries on player three
• 46:50
  Wii remote because that one, you know,
• 46:51
  it's been so long since you've busted
• 46:53
  these puppies out. You've gotten
• 46:54
  everybody over to your house. You've
• 46:55
  situated everybody with their
• 46:56
  controller. You've explained why only
• 46:58
  one person gets the game pad. And now
• 47:00
  you are going to put press start on this
• 47:03
  4-minute game in which one person is
• 47:05
  Link shooting arrows and the other three
• 47:07
  are Link swinging swords on an on rails
• 47:10
  beat him up adventure. And it's like is
• 47:12
  that game good? I cannot tell you. I
• 47:16
  cannot I simply cannot tell you because
• 47:17
  the experience to getting to that game
• 47:19
  which I believe is part of the game and
• 47:21
  and inexurable from examining it was so
• 47:24
  torturous that anything that would
• 47:26
  result in that moment. It just simply
• 47:28
  has has to do too much to make it worth
• 47:30
  it. I don't know. I don't know if this
• 47:31
  was a salient point to make.
• 47:32
  >> No, no. I I think it makes sense, right?
• 47:34
  Because it's just talking about this
• 47:35
  idea of like no, the experience of
• 47:37
  playing a game is your is a part of your
• 47:40
  of the game. And so like if there was a
• 47:42
  console that every single time like okay
• 47:43
  let's say if the Switch had a nail gun
• 47:45
  in the back of it and every time you put
• 47:47
  it in your lap it shot you in both legs
• 47:49
  with a nail. I would say that I didn't
• 47:51
  like Donkey Kong Bonanza that much. Well
• 47:54
  because but people do this thing people
• 47:55
  do this thing where they think that the
• 47:57
  game can be examined separately from
• 47:59
  that. So they'll be like oh yeah the Wii
• 48:01
  U was bad but the games were good. And
• 48:03
  I'm like I'm sorry the games don't exist
• 48:05
  without the without the method in which
• 48:06
  you experience them.
• 48:08
  >> Yes. The Yeah. And it's a similar thing
• 48:10
  about like you know people talk about
• 48:11
  like performance. Okay well the game
• 48:12
  runs bad but it's pretty good. And I do
• 48:14
  understand like uh uh in a review you do
• 48:17
  have to take those things into
• 48:18
  consideration and like understand that
• 48:19
  you were trying to make points about
• 48:20
  like you know these sorts of things but
• 48:22
  at the end of the day it's like they are
• 48:23
  uh tied and so when discussing them like
• 48:25
  they should be discussed or or even like
• 48:28
  um a lot of people don't want to talk
• 48:29
  about the context of how a game was made
• 48:31
  right and like if you know that
• 48:33
  information and it makes you feel a
• 48:34
  certain way like
• 48:37
  >> you know we were talking about Overwatch
• 48:38
  before and if I had to give a review of
• 48:40
  Overwatch right now I have to mention
• 48:43
  mention Microsoft. I have to mention
• 48:45
  BDS. I have to mention [ __ ] Blizzard.
• 48:48
  You know what I mean? And like those are
• 48:49
  just things that like are are tied to
• 48:52
  that experience of playing the game. And
• 48:53
  then I talk about the game, right? I
• 48:55
  don't think it can be all about the
• 48:56
  context because you have to talk about
• 48:57
  the actual text, but like those things
• 48:59
  like are a part of actually playing this
• 49:01
  thing. But Jake, I'd like to tell you
• 49:04
  about the critical error nation. Is that
• 49:06
  okay?
• 49:06
  >> Oh my god. The critical error nation. I
• 49:08
  know that right now they are sitting on
• 49:11
  a threehour bonus episode in which we
• 49:14
  answered every question that our patrons
• 49:17
  submitted. We went back and forth. We
• 49:19
  got through the whole kitten
• 49:20
  kaboodleoodle,
• 49:21
  >> the whole list. And it's so funny. There
• 49:22
  were a handful of comments being like,
• 49:23
  you don't have to read all these
• 49:24
  questions. We're reading all of the
• 49:26
  questions.
• 49:27
  >> Uh patreon.com.
• 49:28
  >> How do they get access to that?
• 49:29
  >> patreon.com.
• 49:31
  >> Critical error. for just $5 a month, you
• 49:34
  can join as a member of the critical
• 49:36
  error nation where you get uh bonus
• 49:38
  podcasts every single week. And and
• 49:40
  someone did a chart I I'm forgetting
• 49:41
  who. Someone put a chart in the Discord
• 49:43
  server, which also you get access to if
• 49:44
  you are a part of the nation uh or part
• 49:47
  of the the Patreon. Um someone made a
• 49:51
  chart about how long these bonus
• 49:52
  episodes have gotten. Now, obviously, I
• 49:54
  think the three-hour bonus pod is an
• 49:55
  outlier. Like I I think that's important
• 49:57
  to state. not all three hours, but we
• 49:59
  have been giving more as as we've been
• 50:01
  able to give critical error more of our
• 50:03
  attention thanks to the members of the
• 50:05
  critical error nation. A few of whom I
• 50:07
  would like to give a shout out right
• 50:08
  now, the members of the Jake and Peter
• 50:10
  tier. This is the highest tier on the
• 50:12
  Patreon. Um these people have have been
• 50:15
  so kind to open their wallets to us.
• 50:18
  These are Andrew Bulkar, Evan Sneo, and
• 50:23
  Robert Quesada. Thank you so much for
• 50:25
  being a part of the Jake and Peter tier.
• 50:27
  It means the entire world to us. But
• 50:29
  that's not the only people that we want
• 50:30
  to shout out in this episode. Is that
• 50:31
  right?
• 50:32
  >> That's right. We have more the the the
• 50:35
  members at the What is this? The $10
• 50:37
  tier. Is that what gets access to this?
• 50:39
  Every every week we make a sound. And if
• 50:41
  you are if you are subscribed at at
• 50:43
  least the $10 tier, you are included
• 50:45
  here. I wonder what it's going to be
• 50:47
  like this week.
• 50:48
  >> I have no idea. What could it possibly
• 50:49
  be?
• 50:50
  >> Play the sound. Wait a second. Do you
• 50:52
  even like critical error or do you just
• 50:54
  like the members of the Jake and Peter
• 50:55
  tier, Andrew Bulkar, Anel Trade,
• 50:57
  Evansne, Monero, and Robert Kesada? Oh
• 51:00
  no, wait a second. You're a podcast
• 51:02
  listener of discerning taste. I can tell
• 51:05
  really you're just here for the critical
• 51:07
  era royalty members like Brianna Boston
• 51:09
  thick dick Mystic Pinky Oats Shin Kalech
• 51:12
  Chow Mitch Dyer Cole Sam Woods Jared
• 51:15
  Kuseno Jacob Richter James Pierre Reed
• 51:18
  Sam Cedar Danny Disaster and Connor True
• 51:22
  Love I would like any podcast supported
• 51:26
  by those lovely patrons.
• 51:28
  >> Thank you very much to the members of
• 51:30
  the Critical Error royalty in the
• 51:31
  critical error nation. Jake, before we
• 51:33
  end the show with the uh the written
• 51:35
  segment, as we always do, I would like
• 51:37
  to point out that right now we look like
• 51:39
  the main characters in a Hallmark
• 51:43
  Christmas movie.
• 51:45
  >> Green sweater, red sweater, maybe. Or
• 51:47
  maybe an interesting adaptation of um a
• 51:50
  a Mario and Luigi live action movie
• 51:53
  going back to the live action after this
• 51:55
  Galaxy movie. Who knows? I just thought
• 51:57
  it was worth mentioning. I just had to
• 51:59
  mention it. I'm sorry.
• 51:59
  >> A dang. I feel like I'd be a good Luigi.
• 52:02
  >> But the thing is, I'm not a good Mario.
• 52:04
  Ah,
• 52:04
  >> you're right.
• 52:04
  >> I'm certainly not a good Mario.
• 52:05
  >> Yeah, you're not.
• 52:06
  >> I'm not. I'm not. And I know myself. And
• 52:07
  I think it's important to know that
• 52:08
  about me.
• 52:09
  >> If we if we had to be Nintendo
• 52:11
  characters, who would we be?
• 52:14
  >> I mean, I do think you would actually be
• 52:15
  a good Luigi. Like, now that you
• 52:16
  mentioned it, like, it's quite good.
• 52:18
  >> I don't I think that unfortunately there
• 52:21
  is a stronger, more compelling answer
• 52:23
  for me.
• 52:24
  >> Please.
• 52:26
  >> I think I could be Professor EAD. Oh my
• 52:31
  gosh,
• 52:33
  Jake, you would be an incredible
• 52:35
  professor. EAD,
• 52:38
  >> you know what I mean? Yeah, it's good.
• 52:39
  It's good.
• 52:40
  >> Yeah.
• 52:40
  >> Um Oh gosh. I don't know. I'm not I'm
• 52:43
  just not that like up to date on
• 52:45
  Nintendo characters, right?
• 52:48
  Diddy Kong. Is that
• 52:50
  >> I also was going to say Diddy Kong for
• 52:52
  me. Something that's something. Jake,
• 52:55
  you've uh you've got a written prepared
• 52:57
  piece for us.
• 52:58
  >> Yes, I do. As we as we do each and every
• 53:00
  week. Love uh love taking the time to
• 53:02
  work work a little something out, flex
• 53:04
  the old the old writing muscles,
• 53:06
  whatever it is. So this so this week I
• 53:08
  was really compelled by um there is this
• 53:11
  for for some context for the for the
• 53:13
  listener there is a um musical famous
• 53:15
  musical called Spring Awakening and um
• 53:18
  this kind of deals with this like this
• 53:20
  like these teenagers living in this very
• 53:22
  like puritanical culture and um there's
• 53:25
  this character who I'm writing about
• 53:26
  here who is very like consumed in a in a
• 53:30
  dark painful way by his own sexual
• 53:33
  awakening and it's one of these things
• 53:35
  the the the intensity the violence at
• 53:37
  which his his own like just going
• 53:40
  through puberty arrives in his life and
• 53:42
  then the role that it plays in his life
• 53:44
  is something that I I find like is
• 53:47
  rarely written about in a way that is
• 53:50
  like tangible that you can like hold in
• 53:51
  your hands and it's such a hard thing
• 53:52
  for me to even like
• 53:54
  >> comprehend sometimes and I just have to
• 53:56
  like like it's it's one of those things
• 53:58
  that I think it's hard for the words to
• 53:59
  find
• 54:00
  >> which is like a I don't know sometimes
• 54:02
  like a compelling thing to write about.
• 54:04
  So,
• 54:04
  >> it is I I I like writing about when it's
• 54:06
  like I have a hard time talking about
• 54:07
  this. I have a hard time like describing
• 54:08
  this. And it's like, well, then you
• 54:09
  should talk about it and write about it.
• 54:11
  >> All right,
• 54:12
  >> here we go.
• 54:15
  I don't do sadness, not even a little
• 54:18
  bit. Just don't need it in my life.
• 54:21
  Don't want any part of it. Sings
• 54:23
  Moritsteel in Spring Awakening. Morates
• 54:26
  has been kicked out of school for
• 54:28
  failing his exams. His father screams at
• 54:30
  him about the humiliation of being the
• 54:32
  man with the son who failed. Worst of
• 54:35
  all, Moritz
• 54:37
  has not slept. Every night, his hands
• 54:41
  become tiny wolves that claw with
• 54:44
  hunger, scratching and scarring until
• 54:47
  his body gives in and sleep breaks apart
• 54:50
  completely. He wakes to the proof and
• 54:53
  does not allow himself to look or think
• 54:55
  any further. He only cleans himself up
• 54:57
  each morning carefully as if cleanliness
• 55:00
  could undo the entire night.
• 55:04
  He then moves through the day half
• 55:05
  asleep, but his mind fully awake, his
• 55:07
  hands quiet for now. He hopes to avoid
• 55:10
  those dreaded dreams and certain
• 55:12
  mirrors.
• 55:14
  He is so careful around others, so
• 55:16
  afraid that they might see the scratches
• 55:18
  and know what made them. More terrifying
• 55:22
  is the thought that they would not need
• 55:24
  the evidence at all. One night, Moritz
• 55:28
  Steifel wanders into the woods with his
• 55:29
  father's pistol hidden on his person.
• 55:31
  And there he runs into Ilsy.
• 55:35
  She's so taken with Moritz. She asks
• 55:37
  what he's looking for. If he only knew.
• 55:41
  She tells him that she is on her way
• 55:43
  home. Asks if he wants to come. And when
• 55:45
  he cannot answer, she asks if he
• 55:47
  remembers how they used to play together
• 55:49
  when they were kids. They would be
• 55:51
  pirates. Everything was lighter. But if
• 55:54
  Elsie can see how much that they they
• 55:57
  have grown, then she can see what he has
• 55:59
  become. Morates, she says, trying to
• 56:02
  wake him from his walking slumber. The
• 56:04
  wolf shifts at the sound of his own
• 56:07
  name. He is afraid that she is already
• 56:10
  looking at it. He cannot reminisce with
• 56:13
  her. Remembering would require him to
• 56:15
  measure the change between then and now.
• 56:18
  and he does not trust what that
• 56:20
  reflection would reveal. Memories of a
• 56:23
  boy who could play at monsters are
• 56:25
  replaced with the knowledge that he has
• 56:26
  become one. But no, he does not look.
• 56:29
  Mortz does not do sadness. Not even a
• 56:31
  little bit. He tells to walk home on her
• 56:34
  own.
• 56:37
  I'm a little embarrassed to admit that
• 56:39
  I've always connected to that refrain
• 56:40
  from Morates.
• 56:43
  I don't do sadness.
• 56:46
  I think as a writer and as a person,
• 56:47
  I've never wanted to lead with my own
• 56:49
  pain and depression and fears and
• 56:51
  anxieties,
• 56:53
  pain is so often deployed as this
• 56:55
  shortcut to depth and meaning. It's
• 56:58
  because pain is already annotated, a
• 57:00
  defense mechanism for those desperate to
• 57:02
  be understood.
• 57:04
  I want to write about joy instead, about
• 57:06
  desire, feeling light. I want to write
• 57:09
  about being 13 and auditioning for the
• 57:13
  school play the mouse that roared
• 57:15
  because Ashley did and I just wanted to
• 57:19
  be where she was. It was my first play.
• 57:21
  I got the lead. Tully Baskam. I remember
• 57:23
  the name. Ashley played opposite of me.
• 57:28
  I remember that scene where we held
• 57:29
  hands, had to stare into each other's
• 57:32
  eyes. An impossible task at 13. She was
• 57:35
  wearing a princess costume and said, "I
• 57:38
  have a matter to discuss. It is a matter
• 57:41
  of state, but it is something personal,
• 57:44
  too." And I answered without hesitation,
• 57:47
  "I will do all in my power to help you."
• 57:52
  This, I think, is when I first became
• 57:55
  acquainted with Ashley's freckles.
• 57:58
  Standing close to her set something
• 58:00
  loose in me. My body stirred and I cared
• 58:02
  to have words for the feeling. It howled
• 58:06
  first in my hands. This alertness, this
• 58:08
  readiness to be careful, a wolf paced
• 58:12
  there, fed by proximity, content to be
• 58:15
  awake. Nothing that happened between us
• 58:17
  meant anything. Not in the way that
• 58:19
  adults meant it. A shoulder resting too
• 58:23
  long on another. An elbow that didn't
• 58:25
  pull away. Our hands cling to each other
• 58:27
  in a strange greeting like a high five
• 58:30
  but with fingers clenched. And I
• 58:32
  couldn't tell who was holding on to who.
• 58:36
  These were such negligible events,
• 58:38
  forgettable by their design. And yet I
• 58:41
  can still point to them. The consequence
• 58:43
  like a scar on my body.
• 58:47
  Whatever was already soft inside of me
• 58:49
  gave way first. The touch only revealed
• 58:51
  it. as if the smallest contact with her
• 58:54
  could save or kill me.
• 58:58
  I carried those moments with a
• 59:00
  seriousness that they just didn't
• 59:01
  deserve. I replayed them, worried them,
• 59:03
  worried over them, gave them weight in
• 59:05
  history and intention that they never
• 59:07
  asked for. And that was the pain of it.
• 59:12
  Not that anything happened, but that it
• 59:13
  almost did again and again. That longing
• 59:16
  filled the empty space where meaning
• 59:18
  should have been and made it
• 59:20
  insufferably loud. She asked me to walk
• 59:23
  her home one day. I didn't question it
• 59:25
  because in my head we had already been
• 59:27
  dating, been together for months on
• 59:30
  opposite sides of the fence.
• 59:33
  I told her, "I don't know if I've ever
• 59:36
  wanted anything more than I want to be
• 59:38
  your boyfriend because I needed the
• 59:41
  fantasy to survive be spoken out loud.
• 59:48
  Once we were sitting on a couch watching
• 59:52
  American Idol, a commercial for a
• 59:55
  children's cancer hospital played on the
• 59:57
  television.
• 59:58
  She rested her hand on my knee.
• 1:00:02
  Sorry, I don't do sadness. I remember
• 1:00:04
  asking her to prom though we were
• 1:00:06
  already dating because asking her to be
• 1:00:08
  with me once didn't feel like enough.
• 1:00:10
  So, I planned it meticulously. seven
• 1:00:12
  envelopes with seven letters inside each
• 1:00:14
  of them that she would receive from each
• 1:00:16
  of her teachers in each of her seven
• 1:00:18
  classes that day. I remember the
• 1:00:20
  contents of every single letter. I kept
• 1:00:22
  trying to sound effortless while
• 1:00:24
  admitting how badly I wanted her.
• 1:00:27
  That same spring, she came to one of my
• 1:00:29
  baseball games. The first time I played
• 1:00:32
  so [ __ ] well. You're a beast today,
• 1:00:34
  someone said. And afterward, leaning
• 1:00:37
  against a fence like she was edited, she
• 1:00:39
  looked at me and she said, "Why don't
• 1:00:40
  you tell people how good you are at
• 1:00:42
  this,
• 1:00:46
  color of her jeans,
• 1:00:49
  they weren't just blue, they were her
• 1:00:51
  blue, this shade that didn't exist on
• 1:00:53
  any other jeans that anyone else ever
• 1:00:55
  wore." Years later, I went to college
• 1:00:58
  and I would notice that nobody else had
• 1:00:59
  that color. How impossible it felt that
• 1:01:01
  something so ordinary could be so
• 1:01:03
  singular. How does that happen? How did
• 1:01:04
  she convince me that she had invented
• 1:01:06
  the color?
• 1:01:08
  Then we're on the floor.
• 1:01:11
  She's saying things to me that no one
• 1:01:13
  has ever said before. Things that
• 1:01:14
  rearrange the past in real time. And I
• 1:01:16
  feel every instinct in my body rise at
• 1:01:18
  once. The part that wants to argue. The
• 1:01:20
  part that wants to plead. The part that
• 1:01:21
  understands that this pain, if I let it
• 1:01:23
  continue, could become the only thing
• 1:01:24
  that we ever share again. And I don't
• 1:01:27
  remember our last kiss or our last
• 1:01:29
  conversation. And I don't remember when
• 1:01:30
  wanting turned into something else. What
• 1:01:32
  I remember instead wonder is wondering
• 1:01:34
  years later who is that guy in her
• 1:01:36
  Instagram story. Has she seen him naked?
• 1:01:39
  Oh, how I self soothe.
• 1:01:44
  Got to play it cool.
• 1:01:46
  Like when Morates wanders into the
• 1:01:48
  forest and meets Elsie, she says his
• 1:01:51
  name. She asks him to walk her home. The
• 1:01:54
  offer is small enough for Morates to
• 1:01:56
  refuse without thinking. He does not
• 1:01:58
  look back. He does not remember. He does
• 1:02:01
  not reminisce. He does not leave the
• 1:02:04
  woods. Years later, years after Ashley
• 1:02:08
  and I broke up, I played Melkyor in a
• 1:02:10
  production of Spring Awakening.
• 1:02:12
  I remember singing at Morris's funeral.
• 1:02:15
  Ashley and I don't talk anymore.
• 1:02:18
  That's it.
• 1:02:22
  You write so well about
• 1:02:27
  about stupid love. M
• 1:02:30
  >> do you know what I mean by that? And I'm
• 1:02:31
  not calling it stupid. I'm saying like
• 1:02:33
  when you talk about like
• 1:02:34
  >> she owns that color.
• 1:02:37
  >> I'm like I think about that.
• 1:02:38
  >> Yeah.
• 1:02:39
  >> Elena owns colors that I've never seen
• 1:02:41
  before and never seen again.
• 1:02:42
  >> Mhm.
• 1:02:42
  >> And it's dumb when I say like stupid
• 1:02:45
  love. I mean like like it's illogical.
• 1:02:46
  Of course she doesn't. She does.
• 1:02:49
  >> Gosh [ __ ] man. And
• 1:02:53
  um
• 1:02:56
  can I say the thing I like about this
• 1:02:58
  piece is that like
• 1:03:01
  the framing of like I don't do sadness
• 1:03:03
  which is something I've heard you say
• 1:03:04
  before. I didn't know it was from Spring
• 1:03:05
  Awakening. Um
• 1:03:07
  >> uh but like this this concept of like
• 1:03:11
  by saying that by asserting that you get
• 1:03:14
  to like
• 1:03:17
  these little vignettes just like hint at
• 1:03:19
  it. hint at this feeling of like I
• 1:03:22
  actually wanted to write about this but
• 1:03:23
  I didn't and I moved on but that doesn't
• 1:03:25
  mean that it's not there. You know, you
• 1:03:26
  talk about like um uh
• 1:03:30
  see the commercial for childhood cancer,
• 1:03:32
  right?
• 1:03:33
  >> Which is which
• 1:03:36
  the hint just just a taste and you and
• 1:03:38
  then we move and and it's it's enough to
• 1:03:41
  just to just like
• 1:03:43
  be notable and then we move and then we
• 1:03:46
  do this other thing and then we move and
• 1:03:47
  it's and it's not all about sadness,
• 1:03:49
  right? But it is about like uh uh
• 1:03:53
  you know what it is I'm sorry I'm not
• 1:03:55
  like speaking very well about this but
• 1:03:57
  like
• 1:03:58
  >> it is it is that what you're writing
• 1:04:00
  about is more than the idea of like I am
• 1:04:02
  sad
• 1:04:04
  >> because because that's obviously like so
• 1:04:05
  like so surface level right and and what
• 1:04:08
  we talked about and what you mentioned
• 1:04:09
  at the beginning um here about this idea
• 1:04:11
  of like sadness is is like a shortcut
• 1:04:14
  for depth a lot of the times it's just
• 1:04:16
  like well if they're sad it means it's
• 1:04:18
  important and deep and it's No, no, no.
• 1:04:19
  Like, there's more to it than that. And
• 1:04:21
  you need to have more than that.
• 1:04:22
  Otherwise, it is not deep. It is not
• 1:04:24
  profound because just saying something
• 1:04:26
  sad is like, okay, it's the same as
• 1:04:29
  saying something's happy. Okay, there's
• 1:04:30
  not a depth to it.
• 1:04:32
  >> But what you're doing here is is
• 1:04:34
  providing these vignettes and providing
• 1:04:35
  this context and and providing this like
• 1:04:38
  I I don't know what the takeaway is. I'd
• 1:04:40
  have to relisten and sit with it. But it
• 1:04:42
  is not simply like isn't sadness so
• 1:04:46
  devastating,
• 1:04:48
  >> right? And I think like something that's
• 1:04:50
  important to me about this is just I I
• 1:04:52
  have this like fascination with
• 1:04:54
  >> characters that are like this. Um like
• 1:04:56
  Superman comes to mind. the the
• 1:05:00
  carrying of, you know, his his family
• 1:05:03
  and and and this this world in which
• 1:05:06
  >> he could have lived a profoundly
• 1:05:09
  different life like being gone, but he
• 1:05:12
  is not a character in the way that like
• 1:05:14
  people associate like trauma with
• 1:05:16
  Batman, you know?
• 1:05:17
  >> Yes. Um, and I think like, you know,
• 1:05:20
  Melkur is by far like the the most
• 1:05:22
  emotionally devastating and saddest
• 1:05:24
  character uh in Spring Awakening, but
• 1:05:28
  like
• 1:05:31
  you know, he walks into the woods and he
• 1:05:32
  kills himself.
• 1:05:34
  >> And like
• 1:05:37
  I don't know, there's a there's a
• 1:05:39
  there's there's an arc I think that so
• 1:05:42
  many characters and so many people and I
• 1:05:44
  think we all kind of afford ourselves.
• 1:05:46
  There is a there is a when we talk about
• 1:05:48
  the things that hurt us, there is this
• 1:05:50
  parenthetical of but I'm going to be
• 1:05:52
  okay but everything will be okay. And
• 1:05:54
  I'm like but what if that's like what
• 1:05:57
  about the people and the the things
• 1:05:58
  where that's not there for?
• 1:06:00
  >> Yeah.
• 1:06:01
  >> Yeah. And it's like I is there
• 1:06:05
  is there what is the to to to do sadness
• 1:06:09
  to talk about the sadness to bring it to
• 1:06:11
  the surface directly? Does that not
• 1:06:13
  insist that there is a safety in doing
• 1:06:15
  it? Doesn't that that like
• 1:06:17
  >> Yes. No, 100%. I I think that there's a
• 1:06:19
  lot of stuff that like
• 1:06:21
  >> um it's funny. I will put this in my
• 1:06:23
  song my my songs that I write, but I
• 1:06:24
  won't talk about them or write about
• 1:06:25
  them other otherwise. There's a certain
• 1:06:27
  like heightened level of like
• 1:06:29
  >> um maybe suspension of disbelief that
• 1:06:31
  people have about music where it's like,
• 1:06:32
  well, no, he's like exaggerating or
• 1:06:34
  whatever. And I am sometimes, but I am
• 1:06:35
  also speaking very honestly when I write
• 1:06:37
  music where it's this thing where it's
• 1:06:38
  like what you're talking about is no no
• 1:06:40
  the stuff that actually pains me I I
• 1:06:42
  can't talk about
• 1:06:44
  >> because there is because there is no
• 1:06:45
  safety in it and in talking about it
• 1:06:47
  there is a vulnerability and a level of
• 1:06:49
  like I just don't think anyone cares or
• 1:06:50
  understands or whatever right that that
• 1:06:53
  um in even talking about sadness there
• 1:06:56
  is a certain level of like well by
• 1:06:57
  talking about this you are making a bid
• 1:06:59
  for connection to be understood
• 1:07:00
  >> and and to be honest sometimes I think
• 1:07:02
  like people can handle it and I
• 1:07:04
  sometimes like it's a you know we
• 1:07:06
  >> dude so can I be honest with you so we
• 1:07:08
  talked about this I've
• 1:07:10
  >> in a move unlike me I've like been
• 1:07:12
  thinking about and starting writing uh
• 1:07:14
  my piece for next week
• 1:07:15
  >> right
• 1:07:15
  >> uh because this um uh incredibly
• 1:07:18
  stressful and uh high intensity thing
• 1:07:21
  happened to me this past week and I want
• 1:07:23
  to write about it and um I am trying to
• 1:07:26
  figure out what the take what the so
• 1:07:29
  what is that isn't just man the world's
• 1:07:31
  [ __ ] up and you know what I
• 1:07:33
  and and I'm I'm working on trying to
• 1:07:35
  figure out like where it goes and I will
• 1:07:37
  get there eventually, but so that it's
• 1:07:39
  not just about sadness and about
• 1:07:42
  tragedy, even though things can be about
• 1:07:44
  that, but like I have to have more
• 1:07:46
  personally because I just don't want it
• 1:07:48
  to I'm just not comfortable leaving
• 1:07:49
  leaving it there, you know?
• 1:07:51
  >> Of course. Yeah. I I just
• 1:07:54
  >> there's there's this is kind of like a
• 1:07:55
  modern literature thing as well. There's
• 1:07:58
  there's just like this insistence in a
• 1:07:59
  lot of uh contemporary novels that like
• 1:08:02
  somebody kind of being sad and in their
• 1:08:05
  feelings is like enough. Right. And I
• 1:08:07
  just
• 1:08:08
  >> that's what I'm saying where I'm like
• 1:08:09
  like just by talking about a tragedy
• 1:08:11
  that happened that I also sort of
• 1:08:12
  witnessed.
• 1:08:14
  >> That's not enough for me because because
• 1:08:16
  it's not enough to say it's that's not
• 1:08:18
  saying anything. That's just me
• 1:08:19
  reporting the news of my life, right?
• 1:08:22
  And and then that that offloads, you
• 1:08:24
  know, we talk a lot about on critical
• 1:08:26
  error, a lot about the idea of like
• 1:08:28
  writers or critics or whoever like
• 1:08:30
  offloading the work on other people.
• 1:08:32
  >> And by for me just saying here's
• 1:08:34
  something [ __ ] up without giving you
• 1:08:36
  anything else. I'm offloading the work
• 1:08:38
  of the interpretation to you.
• 1:08:40
  >> Yeah. And and stories are so much more
• 1:08:42
  than like than empathy machines. And I
• 1:08:44
  think sometimes people are a little too
• 1:08:46
  addicted to the like
• 1:08:47
  >> it this made me feel empathy, so that's
• 1:08:49
  how I know it like is meaningful. But
• 1:08:51
  it's like that's that's not
• 1:08:53
  >> you got more start.
• 1:08:54
  >> Yeah. You got to there's got to you got
• 1:08:56
  to say you got to Yeah. There's got to
• 1:08:57
  be some substance there. So
• 1:08:59
  >> I like this piece a lot. I like a lot.
• 1:09:01
  >> Thank Thank you for listening. Uh this
• 1:09:02
  was this was a this was like a hard one
• 1:09:04
  for me to write. This was the most I
• 1:09:05
  think in a in a piece that I
• 1:09:11
  wrote a sentence, delete it, wrote a
• 1:09:13
  sentence, deleted, wrote a sentence,
• 1:09:14
  deleted it. Um yeah, just because the
• 1:09:17
  like I don't know to give it to give
• 1:09:18
  like a little bit of a peak behind the
• 1:09:19
  curtain I guess that that um close to
• 1:09:24
  the top his uh his hands become tiny
• 1:09:25
  wolves. That was something that like
• 1:09:30
  I it came to me really late but then I
• 1:09:32
  was like this is it. I was like yeah
• 1:09:35
  this is this is it. This is um yeah and
• 1:09:38
  and I think like there was there was
• 1:09:39
  something really salient um in that idea
• 1:09:42
  for me that I connected to and I kind of
• 1:09:44
  started strategically before I read this
• 1:09:46
  piece like with that little preamble
• 1:09:48
  about the context of what it was about
• 1:09:49
  because I just am I I really think
• 1:09:53
  there's something in here that is hard
• 1:09:55
  to name.
• 1:09:56
  >> Yes.
• 1:09:57
  >> And because just like man this this this
• 1:10:00
  and this is kind of why I think he's
• 1:10:01
  like such a great character. This like
• 1:10:03
  Moritz character being so
• 1:10:06
  being literally driven to suicide
• 1:10:08
  because he's having like these like
• 1:10:11
  powerful frequent wet dreams I think in
• 1:10:13
  in a modern context is something that is
• 1:10:15
  like really hard to place and really
• 1:10:17
  like so like what is that what does that
• 1:10:19
  make you feel like and
• 1:10:21
  >> you know your your your
• 1:10:24
  body being transformed in a way that you
• 1:10:26
  are afraid everyone else can see.
• 1:10:28
  >> Yeah.
• 1:10:28
  >> And he hasn't slept and he's in pain and
• 1:10:31
  he just god it's like Yeah. I think a
• 1:10:33
  lot about um the phrase like silent or
• 1:10:35
  or yeah maybe silent addictions
• 1:10:38
  >> invisible addictions. Are you familiar
• 1:10:39
  with this as a concept? Yeah.
• 1:10:41
  >> It's if if you're unfamiliar listening
• 1:10:42
  it's it's like um people have gambling
• 1:10:44
  addictions
• 1:10:45
  >> uh or or uh like other addictions and
• 1:10:47
  things like that that are maybe
• 1:10:49
  destroying your life, but it's not
• 1:10:50
  destroying your life in a visible way in
• 1:10:52
  the way that like if you're addicted to
• 1:10:53
  heroin it it's kind of noticeable. Um
• 1:10:56
  and I think what you're talking about
• 1:10:57
  here is is something similar where it's
• 1:10:58
  like there's something wrong but it's
• 1:11:00
  hard to talk about because it's hard to
• 1:11:02
  place. Mhm.
• 1:11:03
  >> And sometimes th that is the most
• 1:11:05
  painful and the most um uh
• 1:11:09
  >> impossible thing to to to discuss and to
• 1:11:12
  place because it's like
• 1:11:13
  >> how do I talk about I can't
• 1:11:14
  >> and I think even even imagining it is
• 1:11:16
  painful. Even imagining somebody really
• 1:11:18
  in that position is like so like
• 1:11:21
  >> Yeah. I don't know. So
• 1:11:22
  >> yeah. Yeah.
• 1:11:23
  >> Yeah. So this was a this was a
• 1:11:24
  challenge. This was a challenge this
• 1:11:25
  one. So yeah.
• 1:11:26
  >> Well, I thought it was I thought it was
• 1:11:27
  um pointed and and and good. So
• 1:11:30
  >> cool. Hey, thank you so much for
• 1:11:32
  listening. If you're watching this on
• 1:11:34
  YouTube, go ahead and like the video,
• 1:11:36
  subscribe to the channel. Uh, if you're
• 1:11:39
  interested, patreon.com/critical
• 1:11:42
  error.jointhenation,
• 1:11:44
  become a member, get those bonus pods.
• 1:11:47
  Thanks for listening this week. We will
• 1:11:49
  catch you next one. Bye.