Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy (3/4)

Transcript

Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  I'm so drunk. Welcome back to a hamster with a
• 0:41
  blunt penknife the Doctor Who commentary podcast, mr.
• 0:45
  Rob Valentine. Hello.
• 0:47
  Hello. What a joy, it is to be here
• 0:50
  with you tonight. It's a good, it's a good.
• 0:53
  It's such a good story to be talking about, it's wonderful,
• 0:56
  you know, I'm gonna hit you with a question straight away, Doctor
• 1:00
  Who Mastermind straight away and it's from frasor Gregory who has
• 1:05
  done more than a few of these now.
• 1:07
  And he asks, where The reddington's clowns sit in the
• 1:11
  pantheon of Doctor Who monsters. Villains, God, people love these
• 1:16
  questions where they are putting things in order.
• 1:19
  Don't like I know a choice. Have there been any Doctor Who
• 1:22
  villains who just make lists? That's why I suppose that's what
• 1:25
  right does actually in Ghostlight yes anyway yeah, it
• 1:28
  was the cook. I'll preface the question.
• 1:30
  We're saying to the hamster, fans at home, if I come out with
• 1:34
  a doctor's opinion that annoys or irritates you don't worry,
• 1:38
  I'm not right. But also my opinion would have
• 1:40
  changed by tomorrow so yeah just relax and just don't take it
• 1:45
  seriously. Okay so the question was, where
• 1:48
  does he rank in? The pantheon, is bloody good.
• 1:55
  He's, yeah, I can't, I can't praise in reddington's,
• 1:59
  performance enough. I think his physicality is as
• 2:04
  good as that of scarers Jack for example, but also The levels and
• 2:11
  just the angry terrified rat in a trap that is the that last bit
• 2:16
  of his humanity is under there. So it's kind of like that's why
• 2:19
  I can. I wonder what he was like before
• 2:23
  the gods came because he is he's thrown his.
• 2:27
  I think he's thrown himself into being thoroughly murderously
• 2:31
  joyfully evil, because that's just the one corner of his
• 2:35
  brain. This Craven coward can hide in
• 2:39
  and feel Safe. If I throw myself into this
• 2:41
  completely, I'm kind of somehow free of the horror of all this,
• 2:45
  but where is he? Where is he rate?
• 2:48
  He's think he's brilliant, but This the story and the script
• 2:55
  doesn't, it's not a big enough part.
• 2:58
  I think he does what with what he's got is fantastic.
• 3:01
  But it's a minor supporting role in a larger story.
• 3:06
  So, I think that in itself kind of does limit to how high in the
• 3:09
  pantheon, he can go, but if it's just like a literally, the
• 3:13
  pantheon of villains, like a museum with, they're all behind
• 3:15
  glass that you can just wander through.
• 3:17
  He is a beautiful example of one.
• 3:21
  Yeah. Well, you Add him to, you know,
• 3:25
  you gave him the title of, like, Chief henchmen.
• 3:29
  So, that's basically like the deputy chief caretaker in
• 3:32
  Paradise towers and yet, I think he's other than that.
• 3:34
  I think that's a great performance in Paradise out.
• 3:36
  This is a much more memorable character, so, given that he
• 3:40
  isn't the main villain in this. I mean, you could say it's
• 3:43
  Captain Kirk, because that's the got a Ragnarok, it makes it even
• 3:47
  more impressive wall. A reading does with the part to
• 3:49
  make it such a standout it doesn't.
• 3:51
  And he's really thought. Okay.
• 3:53
  Because really with the chief clown is he is a victim as much
• 4:01
  as all the others are, but he's a victim who's chosen to side
• 4:06
  with his. I'll go, what's the antonym of
• 4:12
  victim? Anyway, to side with the person
• 4:15
  who is in trapped him in to make himself a safe safe as possible
• 4:20
  from them. So him being a loyal.
• 4:23
  Henchman is his Refuge it's kind of like a in the in some of the
• 4:28
  early scenes as like a nervous edginess to it.
• 4:30
  So I'm wondering if back in the day he was quite a nervous shy
• 4:35
  sort of. Yeah exactly.
• 4:37
  Exactly. And it is in, I think there's
• 4:41
  one of the most chilling scenes and is in this episode, we're
• 4:44
  about to watch, its bellboys suicide.
• 4:47
  I think it's scary because of the character chooses to commit
• 4:50
  suicide. How its executed?
• 4:53
  But then it's the bit where he Grins and it's almost like,
• 4:57
  yeah. You know what?
• 4:58
  I'm doing this, and I like it and that's scary.
• 5:01
  Yeah. But it's also sort of
• 5:04
  psychological disassociation. It's like I've just one of my
• 5:08
  old. Colleagues and Friends has just
• 5:10
  killed themselves because of the situation we're in.
• 5:15
  This is awful and terrifying. So I'm just going I'm going to
• 5:17
  retreat into this Persona because all his friends are now
• 5:22
  robots. He I'm going to retreat into
• 5:24
  this clown Persona this highly choreographed, The Sona of
• 5:29
  gestures and smiles because I've he has retreated into just a
• 5:34
  corner of his own brain and that's what to me.
• 5:37
  So if you look at him as both, Ellen and victim.
• 5:40
  It's even more terrifying. More?
• 5:41
  Interesting. Yeah, yeah.
• 5:43
  Even in that last episode, you know, where he's going around,
• 5:46
  and he's trying to round everybody up.
• 5:47
  There's a desperation. Even in that last scene where
• 5:49
  he's like, you know, not strong enough or he's really like he's
• 5:54
  like, I've got a do this. Otherwise I'm going to have the
• 5:56
  same fate as the. Yeah, he his his motivation is
• 6:01
  absolute fucking Terror, you know?
• 6:04
  And that's, that's why he has become what?
• 6:06
  He's become an occasion that tension burst It's out because
• 6:09
  there's that little exchange when he first meets Ace as well.
• 6:12
  It just you know just that that he goes from that Singsong,
• 6:15
  falsetto to snarl. Was it?
• 6:18
  Where did you find that earring? To tell me where you found it?
• 6:21
  Yeah, that is that. That moment is perfect.
• 6:24
  It's such a great great performance.
• 6:27
  So, yeah, he's really, he's a beautiful, beautiful character,
• 6:32
  who In the cost design of the piece doesn't have the greatest
• 6:39
  in the hierarchy of it. He's not up there.
• 6:41
  But as characters go, my God, he's a good one.
• 6:45
  Well, that's what you mean. Action then show interaction.
• 6:48
  I think we've done that character.
• 6:49
  More than Justice there, I'll do it.
• 6:50
  I think so. I think this was my intro so
• 6:54
  your countdown off. You go.
• 6:56
  Oh 5 4, 3 2 1. Yeah, well I tried to inject
• 7:03
  some suspense into that it. Can you believe that brick box
• 7:06
  dares to put in the corner of the screen?
• 7:08
  Are skip intro? And the that's a trap it's
• 7:12
  electrocute to if you separates the wheat from the dead.
• 7:22
  Sorry Carol there is actually one schieber.
• 7:25
  I press the skip intro button that's original Star Trek.
• 7:29
  I just can't bear that theme tune It is a bit.
• 7:33
  Is a bit wobbly, isn't it? Why do you imagine like covered
• 7:38
  service McCoy's face and silver paint beginning of the target
• 7:42
  sequence? It's the 80s.
• 7:43
  It's you know it's looks cool and it gives him that kind of
• 7:50
  Marlon Brando in the Fortress of Solitude, Superman kind of look,
• 7:53
  it makes him look, it makes it gives it a nice iconic Xin.
• 7:58
  I think that's kind of lacking from the earlier ones.
• 8:02
  I'd like the wink to what one thing, we Haven't discussed it
• 8:07
  in a lot of depth is the direction.
• 8:12
  This is an awareness first. Isn't it?
• 8:14
  Is this ghost fly? And yes.
• 8:18
  Yeah, and I think he was probably the find of the era.
• 8:22
  Oh yeah yeah I mean it's his hit rate is 3 for 3.
• 8:26
  These are brilliantly brilliantly directed and two of
• 8:30
  them heavily location pieces. One of them totally Studio bound
• 8:36
  and And he yeah, he does such an IT magnificent job with each.
• 8:42
  They are, there are three of the best of McCoys and they're all
• 8:45
  his. And I think, I think when you
• 8:47
  get a direct flight out of wearing black gram Harper in the
• 8:50
  80s because some of the direction is very stilted or
• 8:54
  very old school. Yeah, highlights.
• 8:58
  It even more, can I just point your attention to the clowns
• 9:02
  that are behind Captain Cook? Because there's one of them,
• 9:05
  right? I'll tell you what, he might be
• 9:07
  an extra in this thing, but it is doing some great work.
• 9:10
  He's always there. Just sort of to decide is it in
• 9:13
  later on when mags is attacking the doctor.
• 9:17
  He said go, and when the doctor insults him, he goes, yes.
• 9:24
  Yes. Yes.
• 9:24
  Because I'm an old frightful bore whatever it is.
• 9:27
  Yeah, it's such a good director system.
• 9:30
  Yeah, it's Greek clowns as Greek chorus.
• 9:32
  It's lovely. Very funny.
• 9:35
  Here we going, I think all the scenes in this Workshop are
• 9:39
  magic. Yes.
• 9:42
  Yeah. It's the the production design
• 9:45
  on this one, the old bus, even it because you have the half the
• 9:50
  giant robot sticking out of the sand, but that you believe you
• 9:53
  have the little model of it. To let you know what the rest of
• 9:56
  it. Underneath the sand looks like
• 9:58
  and just little details like that.
• 10:00
  Really sell this. It looks big budget.
• 10:04
  Yeah, well I think that's another.
• 10:06
  It's a one of the better. It may be that some of the
• 10:09
  duration might be a little bit distressed because Cuz it is on
• 10:11
  location but it adds authenticity.
• 10:14
  Yeah, and that's what I did. This is one of those ones where
• 10:18
  non-fans could stumble across it and respect it.
• 10:22
  I think, you know I'm going to look at every single line.
• 10:25
  Now that there's three in the audience are saying the family,
• 10:28
  you know, it's like there's no point going on dear, we're all
• 10:31
  bored. They absolutely Doctor Who fans
• 10:34
  heart that he yeah, that's a big, is it?
• 10:37
  I don't know. Hold my problem with them being
• 10:39
  the general audience. Is I don't, the metaphor doesn't
• 10:43
  quite work, but if their fans it works, I do have a problem later
• 10:48
  on though, when the doctor remind me at the time of the
• 10:52
  doctor is doing his magic stuff, I do have a slight problem
• 10:55
  there, we'll get to it. Well, I'll keep my powder dry.
• 10:58
  I really, I really like the intimacy of the scenes between
• 11:03
  Ace and Bellboy, and we've, you'll forgive me.
• 11:05
  Because, of course it is. I think, once on one leg swings,
• 11:08
  Christopher guard is the most fuckable man.
• 11:11
  I can imagine being in Doctor Who, what a beautiful guy, you
• 11:15
  know, I'm seeing disappointed how?
• 11:16
  I'm so sorry to clean the last one or rather broken dissing
• 11:34
  disillusioned. Disillusioned, he's a, he was a,
• 11:37
  he was a young, you know, idealistic hippie who, who's had
• 11:40
  who Happy. And that's the most I've seen
• 11:43
  again hits because he says to the chief counter the you were a
• 11:46
  wonderful Cloud. Once funny, inventive and now
• 11:49
  look at you. Yeah.
• 11:52
  Oh he's terrific. They've booked that's the thing
• 11:55
  Bellboy and the chief clown have both surrendered But in
• 12:00
  different ways. But Bellboy you like in the
• 12:04
  first episode, what's he doing? He's trying to he's with you
• 12:09
  going to the boss? Yeah it feels like he and flower
• 12:11
  child are taking it. That's the time frame of this
• 12:14
  doesn't I don't fully understand it.
• 12:16
  How long this has been going on because it seems like that
• 12:20
  Bellboy and flower child and now their brief relationship is
• 12:22
  lovely are finally. They're going to do something
• 12:26
  about the situation. But how long has it been going
• 12:28
  on? How long has it been a problem?
• 12:30
  Because the doctors heard about it at some point.
• 12:32
  But how many, how many visitors have they been getting?
• 12:37
  You know, they all apart of this and then that now they just
• 12:41
  suddenly decided to defect and they will have.
• 12:44
  Yeah. Is it been a long game?
• 12:45
  They've been playing and we're seeing the failed last stages of
• 12:49
  it. It's difficult to tell that
• 12:51
  they're light. They're coming for the Venetian
• 12:53
  blinds as young Cosette. It doesn't listen compared to,
• 12:56
  you know, a lot of Who from this era or from, isn't it, doesn't
• 13:01
  it look great the attention to lighting, you know, I think they
• 13:06
  really got AA. Well, it took a little while in
• 13:09
  the McCoy but eventually they got it really well.
• 13:10
  I don't think there's a story in 26.
• 13:13
  That's terribly late. I think some of it hugely
• 13:16
  atmospheric. Yes yeah.
• 13:20
  So field it is so good, you know.
• 13:24
  So I believe Christopher God who plays what's-his-name Kingpin oh
• 13:33
  no Chris Drury, Chris Jericho was he considered to be the
• 13:36
  seventh doctor at some point. I think he might there's no
• 13:41
  additional him there's no additional him that exists but I
• 13:44
  think he was considered yes because he's most famous as Eric
• 13:49
  catchpole from Lovejoy. That's just not Gosh.
• 13:53
  I was a favorite of my mother's that was I love Lovejoy.
• 13:56
  Yes. Yeah, him and hit him in Shane
• 13:59
  and Dudley Sutton who never did Doctor Who but should have done.
• 14:05
  I always find in episode 3 of this.
• 14:07
  I feel like one sets the scene beautifully to the plot is for
• 14:11
  like three spinning as plays a little bit and then for is just
• 14:16
  a Relentless, right? Yeah.
• 14:18
  Um, then again, in three what have you got, you know, it's
• 14:23
  there, where the suicide scene and they?
• 14:25
  Yeah. Yeah, that makes it kind of
• 14:26
  worth it. But could this could this have
• 14:29
  worked as a is it's a funny thing about this area is that a
• 14:32
  lot of for piz you can play the game of Would you know would
• 14:34
  have thought certain for partisan better has three with
• 14:37
  certain three be better as Force.
• 14:38
  Yeah. And certain forms better s5c.
• 14:41
  Even you know, it's has a very kind of ran 25.
• 14:44
  Couldn't it with the extra material by hand, so yeah,
• 14:46
  because some fenric might, yeah, I don't know where the creek
• 14:49
  Cliffhangers would have fallen elegantly but yeah, this
• 14:54
  sequence here, this was the scene where that grid above ear
• 14:59
  editors head came down, smacked him on the head and broke
• 15:03
  something. Teeth and had to be rushed to
• 15:06
  hospital and I'll take is on the DVD.
• 15:09
  Geez. Yeah ponies in a lot of pain.
• 15:12
  Oh I love all this in a minute where Captain Cook.
• 15:15
  I'm gonna forgo my what, you know, my chance in the ring to
• 15:19
  give you your starring, it's terrible.
• 15:24
  What's Captain Cook supposed to be all about John?
• 15:27
  I was about to ask you the very same question.
• 15:29
  Isn't there a one line where he talks about something about
• 15:33
  gaining the power of whoever's in charge?
• 15:39
  Oh, the plot? Yeah.
• 15:40
  The powers whoever they be, he says, doesn't it?
• 15:42
  Yeah, so it's I think that's all it is.
• 15:45
  He's heard about this place at some point and has gone in
• 15:47
  search of it for the a bit. Like a an Indiana Jones villain,
• 15:52
  which is sort of kind of what he is.
• 15:54
  But that's Adams pretty much not unlike what Kingpin did.
• 16:00
  And lost his mind and lost his mind.
• 16:03
  So I think yeah, it's difficult to because most of the way
• 16:07
  through, you don't know what Captain Cook's motivation is.
• 16:11
  He's one of those characters their motivation is.
• 16:13
  I mean revealed late in the telling but you'll wait, there
• 16:16
  he was like a parody of the doctor is so true because he's
• 16:19
  there talking about all these fancy planets that he's been to
• 16:22
  and things that he's done. But it's like a grotesque
• 16:25
  parody. Yeah but also his relationship
• 16:27
  with mags is Doing and manipulative and to a degree
• 16:33
  premeditated. And so is the 70s, you know?
• 16:38
  So it's it's just a little more masked.
• 16:42
  Isn't it in how lovely their relationship is their Dynamic is
• 16:48
  with the Seventh Doctor and Ice actually?
• 16:49
  Is it a grotesque parody? I don't think he's that
• 16:52
  dissimilar to Colin Baker, you know, is were successes.
• 16:55
  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was that too.
• 16:57
  That's the only thing is it is it, is it a parody of the The
• 17:00
  Seventh Doctor and this relationship or is it a comment
• 17:03
  on the sixth doctor and Perry relationship?
• 17:08
  Then I think it's it's such a broad.
• 17:16
  It's a white, it's a wide level that there are wide number of
• 17:21
  interpretations. I don't think there's
• 17:24
  necessarily one. I think it's just a loose mirror
• 17:26
  that you can then read stuff into and interpret different
• 17:29
  ways. But I think it's just a, it's a
• 17:31
  doctor, companion relationship. I'm going to hit you up another
• 17:36
  question now. Go for it.
• 17:37
  Go for it to get from one of these shinai.
• 17:40
  Honestly, we've had a fair few responses here.
• 17:41
  Okay, this story Taps right into McCoy's clownish side, but he
• 17:45
  gets the balance between light and dark spot on again, which
• 17:50
  side of this doctor. Do you prefer the pratfall are
• 17:53
  of season 24 or the master manipulator of season 26.
• 17:58
  And I don't agree with this question, but this is for you,
• 18:01
  it is a loaded question because it does, it does presuppose A
• 18:05
  marked difference, which I don't think it's as marked as all
• 18:08
  that. But in the spirit of answering
• 18:12
  the question, as its as its asked, I probably prefer this
• 18:16
  season 26th season 26 doctor. But then again up as soon as I
• 18:23
  tried to explain why by saying because of his subtlety and
• 18:28
  nuance and sensitivity. All those things are present in
• 18:32
  season 25/8. Well that's Yeah.
• 18:35
  So as soon as I liber8 on my answer, I kind of the question
• 18:39
  does kind of collapse of it in the net?
• 18:41
  It's it's really. I kind of think it's some really
• 18:45
  shitty blocking and some poor choices in episode 1 of time in
• 18:50
  the Ronnie kind of fast that I think that's where all of his
• 18:53
  Pratt falling. It's and I think that's where
• 18:54
  that reputation came from. It is it's like oh, for God's
• 18:57
  sake. Stop just stop.
• 18:58
  You know. So I think if you literally take
• 19:02
  it, take to get rid of episode 1 of time and the Rani Of episode
• 19:05
  1 of 2000 Lemma and suddenly you know one's presuppositions and
• 19:12
  or just general, vague memory of two different areas of widely
• 19:17
  different because a lot of a lot of McCoy's quiet Melancholy is
• 19:23
  already there, it's already there in Delta and the bannermen
• 19:28
  love never been known for its rationality that scene with
• 19:31
  balázs. I always go back to you because
• 19:32
  he's so like He's kind of considerate and heart and dark
• 19:39
  in that scene as well. I found the coin 24 is his
• 19:44
  reaction to the story is really interesting.
• 19:46
  Tate Arbiter on out the picture. The stories are all a bit over
• 19:49
  the top and he brings it right down in a lot of those stories.
• 19:53
  He's kind of the most serious thing in there.
• 19:56
  Yeah. I mean, Kerberos tells the
• 19:58
  rulebook seen that, that that is the same Doctor Who is in season
• 20:02
  26 and he does the same thing in happen.
• 20:05
  Triangle, which is garish and can be a bit over-the-top and
• 20:07
  places and then he's there in that scene with the, you know,
• 20:10
  the two snipers. Yes, yeah.
• 20:12
  Confrontation with Helena, at the end of the story, you know,
• 20:15
  and this is not. If there aren't bits of season
• 20:17
  26, where, you know, some of the old, there are a few tiny little
• 20:24
  interesting. It's like on choices.
• 20:27
  He makes that kind of definitely.
• 20:29
  You know, Rob there shall be no battle here.
• 20:35
  Yeah, then again, I think that would have that would been saved
• 20:38
  with a bit more echo on his voice and about 60 more nights
• 20:44
  fighting than there were. I think he, I think he could
• 20:46
  have got away with that if the production and supported him.
• 20:49
  But yeah, I kind of think he there is unlike other doctors
• 20:54
  who, you know, I mean the there's more than one Peter
• 20:56
  Capaldi's doctor, you know, in fact, in 3:30 in what I think is
• 21:02
  first series through about five, I think and there, but yeah.
• 21:05
  Let's see. But I think McCoys largely the
• 21:08
  same doctor all the way through? I think it's just yeah it's just
• 21:12
  bits of the writing for the series at large I think develops
• 21:17
  but his characterization is fairly consistent.
• 21:19
  Yeah. More than I remember cause I
• 21:21
  don't just I don't watch these very often.
• 21:24
  You know most of classic Who resides in my memory.
• 21:27
  I've seen it, I've seen it. I've seen all of them a few
• 21:29
  times. There's some of them just once
• 21:31
  or twice, but for the most part they reside in my memory rather,
• 21:34
  Rather than things I frequently returned to unless work requires
• 21:38
  I have a quick refresher which I which right there, most of my
• 21:42
  doctor who watching has been recently because I've had to
• 21:46
  remind myself of plot points and I was going to ask you about
• 21:50
  when you arrive for a specific doctor, I will you then go and
• 21:53
  watch to get some of the the flavor of the actor or the
• 21:57
  character, something you do need a refresher because, you know,
• 22:01
  I'd catch them on UK gold back in the day.
• 22:05
  But I never bought them religiously.
• 22:08
  I just literally digging it. Like I said, think they, they
• 22:11
  reside in my memory for the most part, but I will go back and
• 22:13
  have a look if necessary. Yeah, I'm going to ask you about
• 22:20
  the always could actually, this is perfect.
• 22:24
  I'm talking about the off-screen deaths in this and I'm going to
• 22:31
  ask to compare this death here where he's gone out there.
• 22:35
  Smiling. And and now we see is Smokey,
• 22:37
  ashes and is glass is shattered and the scene in Attack of the
• 22:42
  Cybermen where Litton has his hand crushed and there's blood
• 22:46
  all over the place. What's the scary approach like
• 22:49
  shoving it all in your face or not seeing it on leaving?
• 22:53
  It's your imagination. I'm not seeing it.
• 22:55
  It's not. It's not seen at all than
• 22:57
  leaving it to imagination depending on depending on the
• 23:04
  the Action and feeling and tone of the wider piece, I would I'd
• 23:09
  be really disappointed. If at the end of The Godfather,
• 23:12
  the heads of the five families and Moe Greene.
• 23:17
  And Carlo oral killed off screen and tasteful ways, where you
• 23:21
  don't see the Graz going in, in the, the bullets going through
• 23:26
  the glasses and stuff. So so, but violence.
• 23:28
  Absolutely has its place it so it all depends on the needs of
• 23:32
  your production, but when you've got the budget of Doctor Who and
• 23:36
  it's also the type of show Doctor Who is, it's not the
• 23:39
  place for that kind of Gore, really.
• 23:43
  I mean, there are always exceptions, so, I don't give a
• 23:46
  blanket. Answer.
• 23:48
  I'd like it is the answer but this is this is sci-fi family
• 23:52
  fantasy Adventure. So yeah, it's so within Luke
• 23:57
  nakano this. What is so brilliantly?
• 23:59
  Done off screen but what I thought in my head, something
• 24:03
  truly horrific. It's going on.
• 24:05
  Yeah. And also it's also you what
• 24:07
  you're left with is, you have just the glasses on The Scorch
• 24:12
  floor and before them that look of totally innocent Hope on His
• 24:18
  face and that's the thing that's important to leave the audience
• 24:21
  with in that situation. So yeah, I'll my Rob.
• 24:25
  Here we go. This is the theme.
• 24:27
  I I think this is perfectly directed this same.
• 24:33
  He actually, he hits around the head, doesn't he?
• 24:36
  Yes, but he's want to remind him about who he was.
• 24:41
  Just everything about this scene but performance is how the
• 24:44
  robots come alive. How we again?
• 24:47
  Go away from the deaf. We can see their hands going
• 24:50
  towards his neck. So we know that he's about to be
• 24:52
  strangled. Yeah and also this is kind of,
• 24:56
  you know, these are two people who've got a long relationship.
• 25:00
  Hmm. Initially Drew between clowns
• 25:03
  face, he looks horrified and then he smiles there's your
• 25:07
  disassociation. Yeah it's the only place in
• 25:11
  Psyche. It's a retreat.
• 25:13
  It's a mental Retreat. Is the way I kind of read his
• 25:15
  evil and it's even worse because it's got painted smile on his
• 25:19
  face. Yeah.
• 25:21
  Horrible. Because if you cut the matically
• 25:24
  it's all about how the the 60s generation of, you know,
• 25:28
  idealistic hippies sold out by the 80s and, you know, and
• 25:33
  that's what. Yeah, but the terrifying thing
• 25:36
  there Joe is the distance between the Period in the 60s of
• 25:43
  the hippie movement. It was 20 years as when the new
• 25:47
  series starters. How are you going to say to me?
• 25:49
  Oh, no, it's just, you know, our at the Centre in which we are
• 25:52
  living. We are that we are now further
• 25:53
  from the year 2000 than this TV. TV series was from the era of
• 26:00
  the generation. It's commenting on because this
• 26:02
  is this is this is a show written and made by young people
• 26:06
  commenting on the Boomers basically I've had people on
• 26:10
  this thing, okay? Telling me I will let you know
• 26:13
  when the first series went out and I ain't talking about
• 26:16
  another lovely child. They're talking about Rose.
• 26:19
  Yeah because it's 17 years since the 10th doctor came into being
• 26:26
  give or take and you know like I remember like it was yesterday.
• 26:29
  Yeah. But it's going to do it's going
• 26:30
  to be 25 glorious years before, you know it?
• 26:36
  Okay. Do you think we've had enough
• 26:38
  hints and Is that mags is a with werewolf aware labor.
• 26:43
  I think so, we have the moon in a way that she walked under
• 26:47
  there so I don't know why she's a wealth though and how that is
• 26:52
  it just that it's just a an interesting feature it doesn't
• 26:55
  fit in thematically then thing does.
• 26:58
  Is it is a spectacle? Yeah it's just a it's just a
• 27:01
  thing, not a problem with it but in a story that's kind of about
• 27:07
  so many different things. I'm just one.
• 27:10
  I just I do wonder where her being a werewolf, it's in.
• 27:14
  It is sorry. Or is it just a comment on Ace
• 27:21
  in some way? If what's that?
• 27:24
  What the the sto? This is Max's duality in any
• 27:30
  way, a comment on Aces. I don't know if I absolutely
• 27:33
  take that approach in survival, don't they?
• 27:36
  Yes. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's just
• 27:38
  that You ought to take mags and Captain Cook mags in the captain
• 27:44
  is a parallel, the base and the doctor.
• 27:47
  What does mags being a werewolf say about X?
• 27:50
  I don't know. Is, I mean, there's there's this
• 27:52
  sort of underlying character thread of the violence inside
• 27:57
  her, isn't it? Yeah, honestly.
• 27:58
  I'm not saying there's anything there.
• 28:00
  I was wondering. Should there be something there?
• 28:02
  I mean, I do I tell you what it's, it's an unusual place for
• 28:06
  Doctor Who to be where you're reading this many layers into A
• 28:09
  story, it just goes to show ya, the there, and it's some.
• 28:13
  And that's another thing about this, this era there.
• 28:16
  Think they are that they are caring about this show.
• 28:20
  It's, it doesn't feel like well, we're gonna make Doctor Who
• 28:23
  because we make them do that's make some content.
• 28:25
  Its know. There is this, there is love in
• 28:29
  the DNA of this, so it's just. Yeah.
• 28:31
  So I've so I. Yeah, I used to love reading
• 28:35
  fiction. And now generally, I like
• 28:36
  reading nonfiction. So I've read a lot about Behind
• 28:39
  the scenes. The doctor I don't know if
• 28:40
  you've ever read script doctor which is Andrew cartmel book.
• 28:44
  I haven't a real shit should consider.
• 28:46
  I really should by having our 100% right that he and you know
• 28:51
  what? They were.
• 28:51
  They were literally agonizing over these scripts.
• 28:54
  They were pouring in as much detail and depth as they
• 28:58
  possibly could, and he details that are, you know, the fight he
• 29:02
  had with the writers and the changes that they made as they
• 29:05
  went along. Oh, hang on.
• 29:07
  I've got to stop for a second. I'll go for it.
• 29:09
  Go for it only because I do think this transformation is
• 29:13
  very well executed. It's not have never ever thought
• 29:17
  about it in production terms and that's because it just works.
• 29:21
  I'm in the story. It's you're absolutely right.
• 29:23
  It's so well done. It's obviously going to be done
• 29:26
  on a budget. So what it is is we keep coming
• 29:29
  back to her and every time we got back to her, the
• 29:32
  transformation is such clever. Blocking in the performance.
• 29:36
  Sells it. But it's in that it's
• 29:38
  considering its, they're filming.
• 29:40
  This in an improvised space. They do a terrific job.
• 29:44
  And there's a lovely long shot where you can see the blue light
• 29:47
  coming in, and she's kind of like clawing at it.
• 29:49
  Yeah. But it's one of those sitting
• 29:52
  with. Now we're at it is one of those
• 29:53
  things where I think the problem is in the script or it's in the
• 29:58
  blocking or but it's one of those things where there's no
• 30:02
  obstacle to mags killing the doctor here right now.
• 30:06
  Yeah, like right now it's just the monster choosing to pose and
• 30:11
  posture rather than do the thing.
• 30:14
  And then I feel the need, obviously, he swings away, but
• 30:18
  it's just one of those odd. I don't know if that's blocking
• 30:20
  all the script off your a, if yeah.
• 30:23
  That kind of nature, she just go for it went.
• 30:24
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it was, is it is
• 30:28
  one of those you might not notice it as a problem on paper,
• 30:32
  but it is the kind of problem a director can ameliorate, or
• 30:37
  Through blocking but it is just one of those bits that.
• 30:41
  Yeah, I doesn't quite work. You kind of wonder why she just
• 30:44
  doesn't go for it and there's thought the bit at the end where
• 30:47
  she's just sort of standing there, you know, without nails
• 30:49
  going at the camera and then like, well then you were, you
• 30:52
  wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't be enjoying the moment, you just
• 30:54
  go for it, you know. Yeah, it's one of those little
• 30:57
  it's I'm not sure if there's an if there's a name for it but
• 31:00
  just in case just in kind of carrot in object and obstacle
• 31:04
  terms, those are kind of There is a problem that there's not.
• 31:10
  There's nothing stopping her from killing him.
• 31:12
  I'm not entirely sure. If Sylvester McCoy is at his
• 31:15
  best when he's gurning like that as well.
• 31:17
  If I'm honest, things that I was thinking about this.
• 31:22
  We all talk about boys gurning and stuff.
• 31:27
  But we don't talk about. We forgive.
• 31:30
  We Pertwee has a complete and utter free pass yet.
• 31:34
  Seemingly when that's telephone wire, goes round him and tell
• 31:38
  ya. Is it now?
• 31:41
  Why, why, why would we be like this Joe?
• 31:43
  Why are we know? Why are we like this?
• 31:45
  Joe people are just, is it, is it the era they made in?
• 31:49
  Is it as forgiving of the olden days?
• 31:54
  Yeah, it's a bit. Like the way you kind of give
• 31:56
  free passes to. Pretty.
• 31:57
  Drastic park CGI that you don't give to post Jurassic Park CGI,
• 32:02
  is it that kind of, by 1988 the semiotic, some of TB and
• 32:07
  performance had Advanced so stuff that flew in 1972,
• 32:13
  whatever. Just just we know weren't
• 32:16
  acceptable. There is it, is it something
• 32:18
  like that rather than I think area itself?
• 32:21
  There's something to the fact that I think pre-1980 Doctor Who
• 32:26
  is considered That is high and people will look for all the
• 32:29
  strings. Whereas post-1980 people think
• 32:32
  it's going downhill and they'll look for all of his weaknesses.
• 32:35
  I think there's something in that as well.
• 32:37
  Yeah, it is interesting. Actually have, you know, being a
• 32:40
  doctor who fan for a considerable time.
• 32:44
  It's just the changes in received the widely received
• 32:50
  wisdom of what's good and bad Doctor, Who?
• 32:53
  Yeah, because I don't because when we were growing up, you
• 32:56
  know, the Wisdom was Hinchcliffe error as the best ever.
• 33:00
  Everything else was shocked in many ways.
• 33:02
  But, you know, that's that's that must past that's passed.
• 33:05
  I think not being challenged Now by it has been through that
• 33:10
  phase. I've heard a lot of people like,
• 33:12
  you know, hinge clip episode Force often fall apart the
• 33:16
  treatment of Sarah, Jane was appalling, no female characters.
• 33:20
  You know, I've heard a lot of whilst you know they're still
• 33:24
  brilliant stories or a lot of brilliant stories there.
• 33:27
  Yeah. And things and this era are now
• 33:29
  considered right up there with them.
• 33:31
  And to be honest, quite rightly, I mean, season 25 and season, 26
• 33:35
  are as good as anything else in Doctor Who, it's as good as the
• 33:38
  show ever, ever, ever got, I would agree with that.
• 33:43
  And, you know, I think there's one thing that works brilliantly
• 33:45
  in that Cliffhanger. I mean, a lot of it works really
• 33:47
  well, but there's one thing that works especially well, and I'm
• 33:50
  going to quote it. It's it's deeper than a going
• 33:54
  that growling the snarling, hurry action.
• 33:57
  The moon. Yeah, he's so good.
• 33:59
  He sells up, moving brilliantly. Oh wait, wait, wait.
• 34:04
  I thought is slowly forming in my aging Noggin.
• 34:09
  Yeah. The.
• 34:13
  The captain bringing along mags. Is she is his act?
• 34:21
  So, that's, that's his premeditation that the doctor is
• 34:27
  going there for premeditated reasons, and he needs and to do
• 34:31
  what needs to be done because he knows what to do to defeat them,
• 34:35
  but he needs Aces help to do it, which is why, he's so Keen to
• 34:41
  essentially Gaslight her into going.
• 34:49
  The captain is manipulating His companion and the symptoms is
• 34:54
  manipulating his glare. We go.
• 34:56
  That's it. Found it.
• 34:58
  It took us an episode? Yes, I think the problem is,
• 35:02
  it's not the parent. We're seeing all these things
• 35:05
  occurring, but the explanation for them isn't happening till
• 35:08
  later. But yeah, I think that's it.
• 35:10
  That that is why mags is a werewolf.
• 35:13
  It's not about Aces character. It's made.
• 35:16
  It's about It's about the captions you saw, or maybe it's
• 35:21
  the fact that you are. No, wait, wait, wait, wait,
• 35:23
  wait, sorry. This is, I don't know what this
• 35:25
  doing, right? Listen for the podcast listener.
• 35:28
  This could be offer. Fuck sake, Valentine anyway.
• 35:32
  It's not eight murders, a skill. A spare suit shoots East dead.
• 35:36
  Standards people in this people died because of a sin, this and
• 35:41
  so Ace is a deadly force. Aces willing to shoot people
• 35:45
  with robots, which is something the doctor isn't going to do.
• 35:48
  But the doctors brought her along.
• 35:51
  Presumably to do stuff like that.
• 35:54
  And that is how she is, like mags.
• 35:58
  Yeah. Or EG makes a token objection
• 36:00
  about, but there, when he needs it, silver Nemesis blow up that
• 36:03
  vehicle all the time, all the time, which is why.
• 36:08
  As as someone who gets is fortunate enough to have to get
• 36:12
  to write Doctor Who there are kind of, there are kind of
• 36:16
  editorial strictures about what the doctors, what the doctor can
• 36:19
  and can't do morally. You know, the gun things,
• 36:22
  obviously a No-No but he does it all the fucking time.
• 36:30
  It's other people complain about Jodie, Whittaker, doctor, and
• 36:34
  the three genocide. So she commits in at the end of
• 36:36
  the flux. Yeah.
• 36:38
  Or you know, inadvertently causes but I can think of
• 36:41
  hundreds of bloody times that's happened in classic series.
• 36:44
  All the dot, the doctors morality is all over the shop.
• 36:47
  Yeah. That's why you know the master
• 36:49
  hasn't been of the Masters morale.
• 36:50
  To use consistent and I think, you know, the master would
• 36:54
  actually point out what, you know what, you know where you
• 36:56
  are with me? Yeah.
• 36:59
  You know what, you know what, I'm like.
• 37:00
  Right? Yeah, but but the the doctor is
• 37:04
  all over. The doctor is an arch hypocrite.
• 37:07
  He's not an arch manipulator. He's actually be great.
• 37:09
  So yeah, mags is the captain Captain Cook's Ace.
• 37:16
  And what's interesting in this period is he is a complete
• 37:20
  hypocrite. Create but for once, they are
• 37:22
  leaning into a critique of that which is what you get with a sin
• 37:28
  curse of fenric, when she confronts him and says, you're a
• 37:31
  manipulative bastard. You knew what was going on.
• 37:34
  You know, what's happening? I think that's really
• 37:37
  interesting because I don't think previously.
• 37:41
  Yeah, July would have liked if we got a season 27.
• 37:45
  Hmm, and you know, I don't know, the tie I know.
• 37:50
  It's retrospectively. We know what was meant to happen
• 37:53
  to Ace but at the time you know things change, you know, in
• 37:58
  early production. So maybe it wouldn't have gone
• 38:00
  that direction. But it would in wonderful if if
• 38:03
  Ace Hood kind of reached a maturity and had become
• 38:07
  everything, the doctor had hoped she would become, but then she's
• 38:11
  actually is actually in a position where she makes a
• 38:14
  higher. She's able to go take a higher
• 38:17
  moral stance and make a hot more moral more.
• 38:20
  Brave decision than the doctor is capable of.
• 38:23
  Hmm. That would I think that would be
• 38:26
  because because that would have been the ultimate answer to the
• 38:29
  kind of the site, the slight conundrum at the center of their
• 38:33
  relationship, which is, yes, he's clearly see something in
• 38:36
  her and he's edging her, a certain direction for clearly,
• 38:40
  you know, high-minded yet quite underhand reasons, but it
• 38:45
  doesn't mean she has to thank him for it and we never get to
• 38:48
  see that moment. Didn't get if he's in the John
• 38:52
  Boorman film Excalibur. Yeah.
• 38:54
  Hey, osric up. I'll tell you, it's not really a
• 38:57
  spoiler, but anyway, very briefly.
• 39:00
  There's a scene in that With Merlin has been.
• 39:02
  He's found young Arthur son of Uther Pendragon and he's
• 39:08
  Arthur's drawn. The sword from the stone and
• 39:10
  he's getting all the disparate Knights of the realm together.
• 39:16
  He still battling a few other people who don't support him,
• 39:19
  but this is one point where Arthur has one essentially, but
• 39:27
  I won't spoil it. I went people aren't seeing it,
• 39:29
  but Arthur makes an utterly courageous and potentially
• 39:36
  deadly. Moral decision that even Merlin
• 39:40
  wasn't expecting him to make is what it's an incredible scene
• 39:45
  that gives me chills every time and I kind of think that Ace
• 39:51
  could have the doctrine Ace could have had a comparable
• 39:54
  moment where Ace turns around and says, fine and I've become
• 39:58
  everything you hoped I would, but she's actually a but the
• 40:02
  story proves actually she's got a more heightened morality than
• 40:06
  he does because she won't use his tools.
• 40:10
  I think that would have been a really cool thing I did made it
• 40:14
  pretty would never have gone there, but it would have been
• 40:16
  like the ultimate comment on their relationship.
• 40:19
  If I accept what you did and why you did it doctor, but it wasn't
• 40:22
  right. And it just because it you know,
• 40:24
  it ended in a good place. Yeah, the means don't the ends.
• 40:28
  Don't justify the means that would've been cool.
• 40:30
  Ultimately. That would have been.
• 40:31
  What? That would have been the
• 40:32
  ultimate critique of him as well, wouldn't it?
• 40:34
  Yeah. And then and then gray cat a
• 40:36
  fucking canceled it.