Latest / Future Christian / The Church as Community Hub | Loren Richmond Jr.

Transcript

The Church as Community Hub | Loren Richmond Jr. · Future Christian

• 0:05
  Martha: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the
• 0:11
  Martha: future of the church.
• 0:17
  Martha: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. I am your host for today's episode, Martha Titarnik.
• 0:22
  Martha: And we've got a little role reversal going on here today. Loren is into in
• 0:27
  Martha: the interviewee chair. So welcome Loren to your own podcast. It is so great to
• 0:32
  Martha: have you on the Future Christian. Yeah,
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  Loren: Yeah, thank you. Thank you.
• 0:41
  Martha: so we are here today to talk about your book, The Church as Community Hub,
• 0:46
  Martha: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive. And I'm really excited to dig into that book,
• 0:52
  Martha: but you know the drill, Loren. We always do some opening questions just in case,
• 0:58
  Martha: you know, our listeners aren't that familiar with who you are and what you're all
• 1:03
  Martha: about. we just wanna set the stage a little bit. And I thought it would
• 1:09
  Martha: be interesting to ask you, Loren, if there's one thing that you might want to
• 1:15
  Martha: share that you think would surprise our listeners.
• 1:21
  Loren: I think this is always like a hard question for like introverted people because we're
• 1:25
  Loren: like, geez, not be performative in my answer in a way that like extroverts love
• 1:29
  Loren: having this embarrassing story. We're you know, we're always just like introverts are like, can
• 1:33
  Loren: I just, you know, disappear? So I'll
• 1:37
  Martha: Yeah.
• 1:38
  Loren: do my best here that comes to mind. I'm gonna say, like, I don't like
• 1:43
  Loren: fashion decision making or wardrobe decision making. So I've really Kind of simplified my wardrobe
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  Loren: style to like three seasonal choices. So like if you look back in my videos,
• 1:54
  Loren: like in the winter, like I'm always wearing some sort of like cardigan sweater with
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  Loren: just like a rotation of shirts underneath. And similarly do something in the spring and
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  Loren: now in the summer. so if my wardrobe looks simplistic, it's because it purposely is.
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  Loren: So I don't know if that's surprising, but that's the best I can come up
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  Loren: with right now.
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  Martha: Okay, well I have heard it said that you know, people in positions of like
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  Martha: significant leadership, are well served by having a very simple wardrobe. So I don't know.
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  Martha: I'm somebody who like really loves clothing and I especially love thrifting clothing, so I
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  Martha: can't really
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Martha: relate to like the impulse but but I bet that it makes things easier in
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  Martha: the morning when you're making decisions. Just streamline
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  Loren: Yeah.
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  Martha: the decision making.
• 2:57
  Loren: Absolutely. That's what I'm about.
• 2:59
  Martha: Okay. All right. And what is one thing that is feeding you spiritually right now?
• 3:03
  Martha: And I think that this is particularly a really important question as you are about
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  Martha: to publish a book because it is a bit of a a meat grinder that
• 3:13
  Martha: you go through in, you know, bringing a book out into the world. So where
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  Martha: are you finding your spiritual moorings right now?
• 3:23
  Loren: Well, f certainly like family you know, my wife and family are like my my
• 3:28
  Loren: anchors, I think, and some close friends, but I think something I really try to
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  Loren: do every night is just when I'm getting laying my head on the pillow, just
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  Loren: think about something I'm thankful for that day, something I'm looking forward to in the
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  Loren: next day, and oftentimes that leads into some sort of spontaneous prayer. And then I've
• 3:48
  Loren: tried to or on a daily basis or a weekday daily basis, I try to
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  Loren: read a chapter of prayer or prayer, chapter of scripture in the morning. And then
• 3:58
  Loren: you might appreciate this, Martha. I did just order the Book of Common Prayer, so
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  Loren: I'm trying to wade slowly
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  Martha: I do appreciate that.
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  Loren: wade my way into that a little bit.
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  Martha: Okay, well that's a pretty cool spiritual discipline. And I mean we have heard on
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  Martha: the podcast so many times, haven't we, from guests
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  Loren: Mm-hmm. Yep.
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  Martha: of various d denominations that the daily office is such an important part of their
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  Martha: spiritual center. So yeah, I'm glad that you're delving into that. That's very cool.
• 4:37
  Loren: Yeah, let me shout out I just saw on Substack a video today by one
• 4:41
  Loren: of our former guests, Chad Brooks, who he mentioned or it's a video like a
• 4:45
  Loren: twenty minute explainer on the Book of Common Prayer that he's been doing forever, so
• 4:49
  Loren: I need to go watch that after this.
• 4:53
  Martha: that's that sounds perfect. That should help with the waiting.
• 4:57
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Martha: Yeah, okay, good. All right, so as we said at the beginning, we're talking about
• 5:03
  Martha: your book, The Church as Community Hub, sharing spaces to help neighborhoods thrive. What is
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  Martha: the actual pub date, Loren?
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  Loren: September eighth, so a week from today.
• 5:17
  Martha: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we are doing this podcast
• 5:19
  Loren: Is that right? Yeah, my goodness. As we're recording this.
• 5:22
  Martha: just in the nick of time to go with with pub date. Yeah. So you're
• 5:26
  Martha: really into the the thick of the runway to launching the book. That's amazing. why
• 5:31
  Martha: don't you talk a little bit about what led you to write the book, what
• 5:35
  Martha: you're seeing and hearing that made you feel like this is an important conversation to
• 5:40
  Martha: have right now.
• 5:45
  Loren: Well, this is this is something I'm really grateful to share Martha about you and
• 5:48
  Loren: and my experience with you and Dan when we met last summer, was it? Gosh,
• 5:52
  Loren: when was that? Yeah, I guess last summer.
• 5:56
  Martha: Yeah, it was last summer.
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  Loren: In the Niagara region where you live in Canada. So my wife, Karina and I
• 6:03
  Loren: went to Niagara to to s to hang out with Martha and her husband Dan.
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  Loren: And I'd been kinda like I can't remember Certainly exactly, but I was happening recently
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  Loren: to flipping back in my journal and I was just like remembering how I had
• 6:17
  Loren: this sort of idea like I kinda wanna do this, I kinda wanna write this
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  Loren: you know, see if I can tackle this project and and then I was like,
• 6:27
  Loren: you know, on the fence about it and then like we were hanging out with
• 6:31
  Loren: you and y'all were talking about Dan's church and then like we went to see
• 6:36
  Loren: Dan's church and I was just like just like enraptured. I'm like, this is what
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  Loren: I'm like this is it right here. Like
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  Martha: Wow.
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  Loren: this is what I really wanted to articulate more. And it was just such a
• 6:50
  Loren: cool thing to see it like enflushed. And yeah, in really way I think in
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  Loren: many ways that was kinda like the catalyst for me to be like, yes, do
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  Loren: this.
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  Martha: Yeah, so For those who don't know, Dance Church for a number of years now
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  Martha: has been a community hub for migrant farm workers and has provided space that various
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  Martha: community partners access, that also has like a cafe and a cafe night with doctors
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  Martha: and healthcare practitioners and various other resources for the migrant farm work community. legal aid,
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  Martha: like kind of all of those pieces that come together in the the the bottom
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  Martha: half of the church building week in and week out. So it has been a
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  Martha: really vibrant ministry in Niagara for a number of years now and and that's literally
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  Martha: what they call it is the hub. So yeah. Need up.
• 7:54
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's I still sort of look back in amazement about
• 7:59
  Loren: like that small church, that small space. And I think like that's like I think
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  Loren: this is why it was such a catalyst for me and w it continues to
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  Loren: be such a hold a powerful place in my mind because like it's like I
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  Loren: said, it was small, it's not grandiose by any stretch. Yet They're able to do
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  Loren: so much, you know, in that space, so much good in that community, through their
• 8:26
  Loren: efforts and partnerships. It's just really cool.
• 8:32
  Martha: Yeah, and I think it really is you know, one of those things where it's
• 8:37
  Martha: like the need is right there and and then the discernment leads to the need.
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  Martha: Like it's it yeah, we're right in the heart of Niagara where migrant farm work
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  Martha: is like a huge part of our core industries around winemaking and f agriculture and
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  Martha: and People are living away from their homes for nine, ten months at a time.
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  Martha: So
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Martha: yeah, it's it's been a pretty amazing thing to watch flourish at that church, and
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  Martha: and then cool that it sparked the idea for this book. So I have
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  Loren: Yeah.
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  Martha: to say, like reading the especially the opening chapters of the book was a real
• 9:29
  Martha: trip down memory lane for me because there's so much that you describe in The
• 9:36
  Martha: opening chapters that really set the scene for the book that is a walk back
• 9:43
  Martha: through a lot of the interviews that you've done on the podcast, the guests that
• 9:49
  Martha: we've featured, the books that we've read, and I think some of the most critical
• 9:56
  Martha: conversations that we've had that you've had on Future Christian and that I have found
• 10:03
  Martha: particularly meaningful to me in my ministry. So, you know, what what role has all
• 10:09
  Martha: of that played for you in putting together this book? Like what what what have
• 10:16
  Martha: you heard on this podcast specifically that is connected to writing the book?
• 10:23
  Loren: Yeah, that's where I'm just like so grateful. Like I'm just so grateful I think
• 10:28
  Loren: for the opportunity to do this. And I think this is where as much as
• 10:33
  Loren: we can give social media in, you know, our our algorithmic age, so to speak,
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  Loren: a bad you know, a bad name. In many ways, like I'm just so grateful
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  Loren: for this sort of democratization of, you know, thought and and sharing that podcasting allows
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  Loren: because it's given me the opportunity to talk to so many different leaders, so many
• 10:53
  Loren: different perspectives, hear so many different perspectives that I would otherwise just have not had
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  Loren: the opportunity to do, like at all. 'cause even like even in ones you do,
• 11:03
  Loren: like, you know, I just mentioned right in passing and and put it in a
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  Loren: subsack about your conversation from several years back with Michael Graham. Not several,
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  Martha: Yeah.
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  Loren: but a few years back with Michael Graham, who you're
• 11:16
  Martha: Yeah.
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  Loren: who we're hopefully gonna have on again. so it's just been so helpful. And I
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  Loren: think I think I I probably like discount really in many ways like how much
• 11:27
  Loren: those conversations and like influence my own thinking and give me a a different perspective
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  Loren: that I can that I can share. So I'm just I'm grateful for the opportunity
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  Loren: to kind of like synthesize some of those conversations and and learnings and and share
• 11:43
  Loren: some perspectives from that with others.
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  Martha: Yeah, I I I recommend highly the whole book to all of our listeners, all
• 11:55
  Martha: of our future Christian community. But I really thought like those opening chapters were quite
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  Martha: a tour de force in terms of that synthesis. Like really just connecting the threads
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  Martha: of of the things that we've been hearing and you're right, it is like such
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  Martha: a privileged place that I think we get to have in being part of these
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  Martha: conversations, initiating these conversations, connecting these conversations, because we are hearing so many different perspectives
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  Martha: across the church about where God's at work and what we're actually experiencing happening on
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  Martha: the ground. So I just I thought I thought it really brought together some really
• 12:44
  Martha: Critical issues around how the church navigates changing times and how we keep our theological
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  Martha: moorings and how we
• 12:58
  Loren: Yeah.
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  Martha: think about our space and how we think about our resources and our buildings. Not
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  Martha: all not all church communities have a building, but a lot do. And how
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  Loren: Right. Yep.
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  Martha: that building is used is a critical question for for the world right now, not
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  Martha: just for
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  Loren: Right.
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  Martha: churches. So why don't we set the theological stage here? Because this is not a
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  Martha: book about you know how to how to have a survival of the church institution.
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  Martha: It's not.
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Martha: that is not how you frame this at all. I think that there is an
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  Martha: element for sure of like
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  Loren: Yeah, right.
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  Martha: what flourishing and stability and financial solvency could look like by using your building differently.
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  Martha: But that isn't the starting point, that isn't the the thesis of the book. So
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  Martha: like what what are what's kind of the theological framework that we're going with here?
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  Loren: Yeah, and I think this is where, you know, I'm sure you've experienced this too,
• 14:12
  Loren: Martha, in your book authorship, where people kind of get a tease of the early
• 14:15
  Loren: book and they reach out to you and you're they're like, I'm so interested about
• 14:18
  Loren: this. And you're like, Well, yes, that's kind of it. That's kind of it.
• 14:21
  Martha: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Loren: I hope you'll still buy the book and read it. And I hope you won't
• 14:26
  Martha: yeah.
• 14:27
  Loren: be, you know, disappointed. Because like it's certainly like gosh, like it is very much
• 14:31
  Loren: an ideas book, but I as you say, I very much try to ground those
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  Loren: ideas in what I believe to be a very central premise of that like the
• 14:41
  Loren: the work of the church is not just about human activity doing good in the
• 14:46
  Loren: world. It's about like us sharing the good news of God's activity in the world.
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  Loren: And I see like these different ways of utilizing our building and our space as
• 14:56
  Loren: another way to be a participant in God's work.
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  Martha: Mm-hmm. I think that that is such an important framework and I think that, you
• 15:07
  Martha: know, there's a whole variety of like it's a very rich book in terms of
• 15:14
  Martha: the number of examples that you use and like the the detail that you offer
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  Martha: and some of the examples I think do have an element of like financial solvency
• 15:27
  Loren: Hm.
• 15:28
  Martha: and lots don't. Like lots are simply
• 15:30
  Loren: Yep. Yep.
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  Martha: about saying like Okay, we have this resource, how do we steward it for the
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  Martha: purposes of God's kingdom? and that's like I just really appreciated that being the starting
• 15:40
  Martha: point because I think in anxious times when everybody's kind of looking for the magic
• 15:45
  Martha: bullet solution,
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  Loren: Yeah. Yep.
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  Martha: it's just easy to jump to, okay, like this is what we need to do
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  Martha: to survive. That's not what you're doing here.
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  Loren: Yep. Yeah, try not to anyway.
• 16:02
  Martha: Yeah, yeah. No, I I really I think that you're very, very clear about that.
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  Martha: So why don't you define what you mean by community hub and what does that
• 16:12
  Martha: look like? What can that look like?
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  Loren: Yeah, I think and most simply the the language that I borrow from or or
• 16:23
  Loren: compared to is sort of the old parish model of church where, you know, certainly
• 16:29
  Loren: in in European English history and and often in like early from my context American
• 16:35
  Loren: in the Northeast history, like communities were often built around the churches or, you know,
• 16:41
  Loren: quite literally a good church was centered
• 16:47
  Martha: But
• 16:47
  Loren: in their community. So like a church had a much more integral role
• 16:52
  Martha: Right.
• 16:53
  Loren: as part of their, you know, part of where they're where they're at.
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  Martha: What?
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  Loren: So I think that's sort of what the imagery that I try to utilize is
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  Loren: like rather than a church
• 17:04
  Martha: Well.
• 17:04
  Loren: building just being a once a week or even twice a week sort of thing
• 17:07
  Loren: that people go to, how can it be seen as a central part of a
• 17:10
  Loren: community?
• 17:14
  Martha: Yeah, yeah. And you're right, I mean that is very tied to that idea of
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  Martha: parish, I'll just like share a quick anecdote which is
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  Loren: Yeah.
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  Martha: I like we have a daily breakfast program at our church
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Martha: and on my breakfast team, I was working with somebody from one of the really
• 17:34
  Martha: successful churches in town, you know, like one of the the big box churches in
• 17:39
  Martha: town. And and that church had recently like moved out to the country so that
• 17:44
  Martha: they had more like
• 17:50
  Loren: Hmm.
• 17:50
  Martha: parking and more space and more land
• 17:52
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 17:53
  Martha: and could build a bigger playground and all the things and and he said like
• 17:59
  Martha: I just really respect like that your church wouldn't do that. Like that your
• 18:05
  Loren: Yeah.
• 18:05
  Martha: church like you're this is where you're planted and like these are the neighbors that
• 18:11
  Martha: you serve. Like it's and that is really baked into the the parish model. So
• 18:18
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Martha: Yeah, okay, so that's that's cool to kind of layer that into the community hub
• 18:25
  Martha: as well. And again, like in the book you have you have such a variety
• 18:31
  Martha: of examples of what that can look like. so you know, you have
• 18:37
  Loren: Right. Although I should say, Martha, it's center C N T E R. Martha and
• 18:41
  Loren: I have to keep up the the good
• 18:45
  Martha: Yeah.
• 18:50
  Loren: relationships between Canada and America since my political leaders are not helping with that.
• 18:52
  Martha: Yeah, we're we're personally doing our part.
• 18:58
  Loren: Yeah.
• 19:00
  Martha: Yeah, that's right. so yeah, you have like a bunch of different categories and chapters
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  Martha: of ways in which the the church can imagine developing their space to serve the
• 19:13
  Martha: community, care for seniors, center for youth, center with an RE, feeding, housing, etc. and
• 19:19
  Martha: you go through each category in a very methodical way, why it matters, examples of
• 19:26
  Martha: what it looks like, practical steps for getting started. Are there one or two like
• 19:33
  Martha: real life examples as you were researching this book that stuff out to you in
• 19:39
  Martha: terms of creativity, effectiveness, you know how you would want to get inspire people to
• 19:46
  Martha: think about things?
• 19:53
  Loren: Well, this was not one that made it into the book 'cause I learned about
• 19:57
  Loren: it after. But it was so much fun to and I shared about this on
• 20:02
  Loren: Instagram. But there's this church sort of on the other side of the metro from
• 20:06
  Loren: where I live that I got to visit and see. And they bring in like
• 20:11
  Loren: thirty thousand dollars. This is gross, but thirty thousand dollars from like vending machines, 'cause
• 20:15
  Loren: they host like a lunch time program for high school kids. And I was just
• 20:20
  Martha: Okay.
• 20:20
  Loren: amazed about how much like Revenue. Like certainly it's not funding the entire ministry, but
• 20:25
  Loren: it's bringing in a source of of revenue for their ministry. And I I just
• 20:30
  Loren: was so fascinated and enthralled by how like a there was like more than a
• 20:36
  Loren: hundred high schoolers there, probably two two to three hundred they said, like in normal
• 20:41
  Loren: days. They weren't there was no sort of like okay, you've had your lunch now
• 20:46
  Loren: and we're gonna preach to you. Like none of that. None of like we're hanging
• 20:52
  Loren: out Bibles or gospel tracts. Like they they understood like it's a long game of
• 20:57
  Loren: being like a a presence in their community and like they're just really strategic about
• 21:02
  Loren: like we wanna be a faithful presence and faithful witness to these teenagers. Like let
• 21:08
  Loren: them know that we're available if they need support, absolutely. but then like just say
• 21:13
  Loren: like we're not gonna like try to like force them to become Christian or to
• 21:18
  Loren: profess Christianity to join Come in the building.
• 21:24
  Martha: Yeah, I know. I think that that can be like such a temptation, like to
• 21:30
  Martha: kind of use ministry as leverage, you know,
• 21:36
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 21:37
  Martha: like like you can you can be fed but
• 21:41
  Loren: Yeah.
• 21:41
  Martha: like no, you can be fed. Like just point blank, right? Like I I
• 21:47
  Loren: Yeah.
• 21:48
  Martha: think that that think that's biblical. Like you can be fed.
• 21:54
  Loren: Yeah, yeah, and it's not like I'm certainly not one who's like, yeah, it doesn't
• 21:57
  Loren: really matter if they follow Jesus ever. Like I want people to become followers of
• 22:01
  Loren: Jesus. Like I like don't don't misunderstand that. Like I'm not saying that that doesn't
• 22:05
  Loren: matter, but
• 22:09
  Martha: Yeah.
• 22:09
  Loren: I'm also like I just don't think that's effective, to be frank.
• 22:13
  Martha: Yeah, I know. I think it's about methodology, right? Like I
• 22:16
  Loren: Right.
• 22:17
  Martha: and I mean maybe it works in a way, but I'm not sure that it's
• 22:19
  Martha: like
• 22:22
  Loren: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 22:24
  Martha: completely representative of what the gospel really is. I dun like yeah,
• 22:29
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 22:30
  Martha: I I I agree. I think that it can be problematic in different ways. okay,
• 22:35
  Martha: I so I'm just gonna jump around a here a little bit because I think
• 22:41
  Martha: I just wanna follow that thread a little bit. like What would be some pitfalls
• 22:46
  Martha: that you would want to guard against as you're considering how you might reimagine church
• 22:52
  Martha: space?
• 22:58
  Loren: Yeah, I mean I think I have like two chapters at the end where I
• 23:03
  Loren: try to talk about some of these pitfalls 'cause I think there's many different pitfalls
• 23:08
  Loren: and certainly theological and ideological ideological can be certainly among them. My chapters are more
• 23:14
  Loren: practical, like in that like think about or discern and listen to the community to
• 23:19
  Loren: think like what the community actually needs before you rush ahead with something. Like I
• 23:24
  Loren: think it was I think I got this story and I think I put it
• 23:30
  Loren: in the book was from John Claghorn, who we had on the podcast and wrote
• 23:35
  Loren: a book on affordable housing. And in our conversation or or my conversation with him,
• 23:40
  Loren: I think it was he tells a story about like trying to s like a
• 23:46
  Loren: church who was like, We want to do senior housing, right? And they started moving
• 23:51
  Loren: forward and then they realized like there's actually not a need for senior housing.
• 23:57
  Martha: right.
• 23:57
  Loren: in their community. So I think above all, like discern and certainly I think an
• 24:01
  Loren: important part of that is prayer, prayerful discernment, but listen to the the community and
• 24:06
  Loren: then like copy and paste is always like you know proceed with caution. Like the
• 24:11
  Loren: the story I I use in the book is there's like this this hashtag like
• 24:16
  Loren: for FOR, the name of your city. So for me it would be in for
• 24:21
  Loren: Thornton or for Niagara or for XYZ City. Like, cause originally, like probably 10, 15
• 24:26
  Loren: years ago now, this this new church in at the Atlanta, Georgia area put up
• 24:31
  Loren: this this big sign that just said for Gwinnett. And like it garnered so much
• 24:35
  Loren: social media attention and algorithms. And I remember like this church down the street from
• 24:40
  Loren: me put up a big sign that said for Thornton. And I was just thinking,
• 24:45
  Loren: like, come on, like, like do your own work. Like, is that really a need
• 24:50
  Loren: in our community? So I think like copied paste is something to avoid. Certainly learn
• 24:55
  Loren: from, but don't just think we can plug and play and you know it worked
• 25:00
  Loren: here so we can do the exact, you know, in our community. And then I
• 25:05
  Loren: think
• 25:10
  Martha: Yeah.
• 25:11
  Loren: like above all else, like do the math. this is something where again, Grace Pomroy,
• 25:16
  Loren: I I think I leaned on her work if I remember correctly, in the book.
• 25:21
  Loren: she's again, speaking previous guest. I talked to like the treasurer of a of a
• 25:27
  Loren: church in Texas. They had rented land church land to a community garden. And people
• 25:32
  Loren: were like, this is great, you know, the land's being used, we have all these
• 25:38
  Loren: people. But then they they found out like the community garden was actually their water
• 25:43
  Loren: bill was actually more than the rent they're receiving.
• 25:49
  Martha: Hm.
• 25:50
  Loren: So like part of the initiative was like, let's bring in some revenue through this
• 25:54
  Loren: rental, but they're actually losing money on the on the whole endeavor.
• 25:59
  Martha: Yeah, yeah. I and I mean, I guess maybe that's okay depending on like how
• 26:02
  Martha: you how yeah.
• 26:06
  Loren: Right. If that's part of your mission, like if you can budget for that and
• 26:09
  Loren: say like we're we're we can afford to take a loss and that we can
• 26:13
  Loren: see that as a missional, that's great. But if you're like, you know, we're s
• 26:16
  Loren: we need the income, then or be aware of what the income or what the
• 26:20
  Loren: cost really is.
• 26:24
  Martha: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I like do your own work. Like I think that
• 26:28
  Loren: Right.
• 26:29
  Martha: that do your own prayer, do your own discernment. Like, yeah, no cut and paste.
• 26:33
  Martha: what would be some general rules of thumb that you would that you would encourage
• 26:38
  Martha: people to think about if they're interested in reimagining their space? Like what are the
• 26:43
  Martha: starting points?
• 26:48
  Loren: Obviously prayer I think has to be number one. I think two is just think
• 26:52
  Loren: about two is listening and then like I've mentioned and three I think is like
• 26:56
  Loren: what what are we passionate about? What gifts do we have? So, you know, just
• 27:01
  Loren: to to laugh at myself as we did Martha, right? If you know, if I
• 27:05
  Loren: was like, gosh, I'm gonna s like here's a really silly example, Martha. When I
• 27:09
  Loren: was in college, so this is a long time ago, right? When I was in
• 27:14
  Loren: college I had this idea that I was gonna like learn to skateboard and be
• 27:18
  Loren: like a skateboard like an evangelist of skateboarders, like I
• 27:23
  Martha: You could have used that for your opening story, something that people don't know about
• 27:28
  Martha: you. I love that.
• 27:34
  Loren: We'll edit that. I'll edit that and put that up front. Like I I went
• 27:38
  Loren: and bought a skateboard at Walmart and I like when I was at college I
• 27:43
  Loren: would try to like pull it out and like practice a little bit and you
• 27:48
  Loren: know, I could barely like just like roll down the sidewalk. Like you know, nothing,
• 27:53
  Loren: nothing, nothing of my vibes reads skate.
• 27:58
  Martha: Mm.
• 28:00
  Loren: I can't even get it out. You know, that is not me. So like think
• 28:04
  Loren: about what are your gifts and what are your passion about and what what really
• 28:09
  Loren: fits with who and where God has gifted you and and called you both as
• 28:13
  Loren: a person and as a as a community of believers.
• 28:18
  Martha: Yeah, yeah, I think that context is everything and gifting is everything. and I am
• 28:24
  Martha: delighted to know that story. I think that's great. No, I think that's
• 28:30
  Loren: See now I'm embarrassed for sharing it.
• 28:34
  Martha: so good. my gosh. Yeah, talk about burying the lead.
• 28:41
  Loren: Ha ha ha.
• 28:43
  Martha: Breaking news. man. okay, so like what surprised you writing this book? You did a
• 28:49
  Martha: ton of research, you talked to a lot of people doing a lot of things,
• 28:55
  Martha: like what were the surprise points?
• 29:01
  Loren: Well, this is the most f the most I don't know about to get some
• 29:03
  Loren: real in the weeds inside baseball here, Martha. Like the editors are no joke. The
• 29:05
  Loren: editors are no joke.
• 29:08
  Martha: That's what we're here for. That's what we're here for.
• 29:12
  Loren: Cause they'd be like, that's a mixed metaphor. You gotta change that, you know?
• 29:16
  Martha: Yeah.
• 29:19
  Loren: so that that's one. I think I think like a favorite another favorite story that
• 29:24
  Loren: I really enjoy sharing is there's this this little church that I came across In
• 29:29
  Loren: my denomination, in like this really small town in Missouri. And like, you know, there's
• 29:34
  Loren: so many churches across the country that are just steeped in decline and and you
• 29:39
  Loren: know disillusionment. And there's this tiny little church in this tiny little town that is
• 29:44
  Loren: like growing and reaching people and baptizing like kids, and doing all these formative ministries.
• 29:49
  Loren: Like they were doing like an outreach ministry to aging adults or or senior citizens.
• 29:54
  Loren: Like in their community and it really seemed like I think this is like the
• 29:59
  Loren: the the undergirding emphasis of the book. Like when you're forward thinking or outward thinking
• 30:04
  Loren: like that, like it just shapes the way your community understands you, rather than as
• 30:09
  Loren: like, gimme, gimme, gimme, or we need to to keep ourselves alive. It's like, hey,
• 30:14
  Loren: we have something to share and and people who want to be a part of
• 30:19
  Loren: that.
• 30:24
  Martha: Yeah, I it's interesting, like early on in time in my previous church, which, you
• 30:30
  Martha: know, was quite a small church in like the south end of Aurelia. and I
• 30:37
  Martha: attended a conference that was really good, you know, like it was not a magic
• 30:44
  Martha: bullet conference. It was just like really authentic, sincere sharing and and I just remember
• 30:51
  Martha: the conference leader saying something about like coming across this little church where They just,
• 30:58
  Martha: you know, were so thoughtful about like what God was calling them to do in
• 31:05
  Martha: the neighborhood and they just tried things and served.
• 31:12
  Loren: Mm.
• 31:12
  Martha: And I found that like just enormously inspiring in terms of going back to my
• 31:17
  Martha: little church and thinking, okay, like we could do that. Like,
• 31:22
  Loren: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Martha: we can just like try some things and discern some things and take a step
• 31:29
  Martha: and then take another step and yeah I think that like it's it's important to
• 31:36
  Martha: be able to see yourself in the narrative of change. It's important to be able
• 31:43
  Martha: to see that like this is accessible. It's not it's not like pie in the
• 31:50
  Martha: sky for churches that have all the resources and, you know, all of the people.
• 31:58
  Loren: And this is why, like, for instance, in the youth chapter, I really tried to
• 32:02
  Loren: do this, like the youth center chapel, to not just imagine this like mega church
• 32:07
  Loren: who has their own separate building for youth, but think about like what are even
• 32:12
  Loren: small things. Like I I can imagine, like, can you just have like snacks for
• 32:17
  Loren: teenagers who come to church and be like, hey, here's a here's a soda or
• 32:22
  Loren: something if teenagers come to church and like make them aware that you're like actually
• 32:27
  Loren: thinking and planning for them.
• 32:32
  Martha: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's there's this radio program that used to be popular here in
• 32:37
  Martha: Canada and the the motto of the at the heart of the radio program was
• 32:43
  Martha: we may not be big, but we're small. And
• 32:49
  Loren: Ha ha.
• 32:52
  Martha: and I love that. Like, yeah, like the Like let's just be small and let's
• 32:56
  Martha: matter to the people who who come and be thoughtful about the ways that we
• 33:01
  Martha: serve them. I think that's a big deal.
• 33:06
  Loren: Yeah, I can't remember if I said it that succinctly in the book, but certainly
• 33:11
  Loren: like I think I d I do talk about I think it's the closing chapter
• 33:16
  Loren: where I do talk about like I use like the strong talent analogy, which is
• 33:22
  Loren: this sort of American nonprofit that advocates for like sustainable community development. And their their
• 33:27
  Loren: big thing is like take small bets. So I think too often
• 33:33
  Martha: Hmm.
• 33:33
  Loren: in especially struggling churches where they're like We're gonna put our all our eggs in
• 33:36
  Loren: this one like outreach initiative, right? Like we're gonna have this giant Easter egg hunt
• 33:40
  Loren: and hope all the families come and then all those families come back for Sunday
• 33:43
  Loren: morning worship on
• 33:47
  Martha: Mm.
• 33:47
  Loren: Easter morning. And like either the Easter egg hunt goes poorly or the the families
• 33:52
  Loren: don't come Easter and just like, gosh, we're all tired, we're all frustrated and we
• 33:57
  Loren: don't wanna try again and like that's that's not the best approach for sure.
• 34:02
  Martha: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's that's right. okay, so we we're here on Future
• 34:08
  Martha: Christian to be real about challenges that the church is facing and you know we
• 34:15
  Martha: are not into magical thinking here we like to talk about what's really going on
• 34:22
  Martha: but we are also about hope and and I think that the conversations that we
• 34:28
  Martha: have here do even when we're like being as real as possible about the challenges
• 34:35
  Martha: that people are facing across the church I think that we are always centered in
• 34:42
  Martha: hope. So what what do you see as the central hope that you're offering in
• 34:48
  Martha: this book? What do you like most want leaders and communities to walk away with
• 34:55
  Martha: in reading this book?
• 35:02
  Loren: Well I wish I had articulated this like in the book. I don't can't remember
• 35:07
  Loren: if I did or not, but it's sort of come to me, right, you know,
• 35:12
  Loren: as insights to after and continuing to think about this. But like there's a story
• 35:18
  Loren: in the book of Jeremiah, right, about Jeremiah like buying the plot of land like
• 35:23
  Loren: as an act of hope. And I think in many ways, I think like I
• 35:29
  Loren: I was just talking to an episcopal leader about this recently, you know, in connection
• 35:34
  Loren: with the book and I And he was telling me about an Episcopal church in
• 35:40
  Loren: the mountains of Colorado that like they're gonna stop having like a weekly worship service,
• 35:45
  Loren: but they're gonna they're still gonna do like the somehow they're the can't remember how
• 35:51
  Loren: it's all gonna work out, but another church is gonna own the property essentially. another
• 35:56
  Loren: episcopal connection. So that the there's it's still gonna be a sacred space. They're gonna
• 36:02
  Loren: still continue to have ministries and programming out of the church building, and they're gonna
• 36:07
  Loren: have like quarterly worship, for instance. So, like I think like in many situations, like
• 36:13
  Loren: I don't wanna be pie in the sky and and think like starting a food
• 36:18
  Loren: pantry or childcare is gonna like just magically bring about like a bunch of kids
• 36:24
  Loren: and families and adults to come attend worship. Like I still think there's a lot
• 36:29
  Loren: of demographic and cultural realities that are gonna influence the future of church attendance in
• 36:35
  Loren: North America. And so I I don't wanna disprom sort of magic bullet or magic
• 36:40
  Loren: solution here. but I also think like there is something deeply hopeful and deeply trusting
• 36:46
  Loren: about saying, hey, we're gonna hold on to this property as a sacred space. Like
• 36:51
  Loren: I that's what again I loved that picture you sent me about the library
• 36:57
  Martha: Yeah.
• 36:58
  Loren: slash church in Quebec because I feel like that was the image of of them
• 37:03
  Loren: doing it really well, saying like, we're still gonna retain some sacred space here, but
• 37:08
  Loren: also recognize that we can use this building to serve our community in different ways.
• 37:13
  Loren: And I think like that's very hopeful. That's very faithful, I think.
• 37:18
  Martha: Yeah, I think that it is. I mean I guess if I were gonna summarize
• 37:22
  Martha: what you just said, like I don't think that you are promising in this book
• 37:26
  Martha: to save the church, but I think that you are equipping people to be the
• 37:30
  Martha: church. And
• 37:34
  Loren: Yeah.
• 37:35
  Martha: like that is hopeful. Like it is hopeful to to be what God calls us
• 37:39
  Martha: to be.
• 37:44
  Loren: Certainly there's gonna be some solu some scenarios, right, where like the building is beyond
• 37:49
  Loren: safeable and that's you know, that is what it is. Like I'm not saying like
• 37:55
  Loren: hang on to your building at all costs, but also like I think buildings I
• 38:01
  Loren: mean I'm I'm a big fan of buildings and churches and sacred architecture.
• 38:07
  Martha: Yeah, and I think that a couple of the most compelling guests that you've had
• 38:12
  Martha: on the podcast have really challenged me to think differently about our church buildings and
• 38:17
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 38:17
  Martha: the importance of of non commercial space, the importance of sacred space, the importance
• 38:24
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 38:24
  Martha: of community space. I just absolutely loved that podcast, that, you know, talked about the
• 38:29
  Martha: economic benefit to communities of
• 38:35
  Loren: Yeah. Bob Yeager.
• 38:37
  Martha: yeah. like of of having our church buildings and and using those church buildings for
• 38:43
  Martha: the the work that we're called to do. So yeah, we n again we know
• 38:49
  Martha: like and we talk to people who aren't in buildings, who don't own buildings, but
• 38:55
  Martha: for many of us who are in buildings, imagining imagining that as a faithful partner
• 39:01
  Martha: in the ministry that we're called to do I think is is really valuable.
• 39:08
  Loren: Yeah.
• 39:09
  Martha: Okay, anything else that you want to tell our community about your book before we
• 39:15
  Martha: go to closing questions?
• 39:21
  Loren: Yeah, I mean I just I I would say like there's so many good ideas.
• 39:25
  Loren: Like I I'm sure you I know you felt this, right, Martha, in your latest
• 39:29
  Loren: book. Like you want to just keep writing?
• 39:33
  Martha: Mm.
• 39:33
  Loren: like I wanted to write more chapters, but one, I just sort of like at
• 39:36
  Loren: some point you're like, I'm exhausted of this, right? And two, you sort of feel
• 39:39
  Loren: like you're saying the same thing over and over again. So like think beyond. Like
• 39:42
  Loren: this is what this is meant to be, like to help people imagine. Like so,
• 39:45
  Loren: like, like there there could have been a chapter on music, you know, your church
• 39:48
  Loren: and
• 39:52
  Martha: Yeah.
• 39:53
  Loren: using music. I you know, I I've outlined almost an entire book. I don't think
• 39:57
  Loren: I'll ever do it 'cause it feels too ambitious, but like there could be an
• 40:02
  Loren: entire book on churches and, you know, medical stuff. Like certainly that's a tradition I
• 40:07
  Loren: think still in your part neck of the woods, right? Is this having a parish
• 40:12
  Loren: nurse, for instance. So I mean there's so much so much that you can do
• 40:17
  Loren: that churches can do.
• 40:22
  Martha: Yeah, I I think seeing the book as a launching point for
• 40:26
  Loren: Right.
• 40:27
  Martha: for people's stories. I like I think it'd be really interesting for people who read
• 40:30
  Martha: the book to get back to you about their own stories of community hub, you
• 40:33
  Martha: know, just
• 40:36
  Loren: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 40:40
  Martha: and you're such a good good blogger and substacker. Like it would be great to
• 40:44
  Martha: just share stuff as it continues to come in because, you know, it's good for
• 40:48
  Martha: me to
• 40:52
  Loren: Yeah, absolutely.
• 40:54
  Martha: assign you more work, but but I I do see it as like the start
• 40:59
  Martha: of an ongoing conversation. And I mean a very fulsome start, but like, yeah,
• 41:05
  Loren: I hope so. I hope so. Yeah.
• 41:08
  Martha: you're right, there's there's as many different ways of being a community hub as there
• 41:11
  Martha: are church communities. So
• 41:14
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 41:15
  Martha: Yeah, hopefully people will continue to communicate with you about what they're doing. Okay, well
• 41:21
  Martha: the book comes out. September the eighth. It is called The Church as Community Hub.
• 41:28
  Martha: And it is Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive. So I can't recommend this book
• 41:35
  Martha: highly enough. I encourage everybody to go out there and get it. And congratulations, Loren,
• 41:42
  Martha: on writing a really important resource for the life of the church right here and
• 41:49
  Martha: right now. We're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna come back for closing
• 41:56
  Martha: questions. Welcome back to the Future Christian podcast. I am your host today, Martha Tatarnic
• 42:03
  Martha: and I have Loren Richmond Jr. in the interviewee seat. And I thought that it
• 42:09
  Martha: would be fun for Loren to have to answer his own closing questions because I
• 42:16
  Martha: don't think you've heard you've heard hundreds of people answer these closing questions in unique
• 42:23
  Martha: and sometimes similar ways. and I don't think our future Christian community has heard your
• 42:30
  Martha: answers to these questions. So Loren, you can take these questions as seriously as you
• 42:37
  Martha: wish. Okay? If you were Pope for the day, how would you spend that 24
• 42:44
  Martha: hours?
• 42:51
  Loren: Well, I am such a I just actually read 'cause I cannot resist going to
• 42:55
  Loren: the library and not getting books. So Pope Leo's something sort of book was there
• 42:59
  Loren: and I of course had to grab it. so I I don't know as a
• 43:04
  Loren: as a baseball fan, I'm just enraptured by this idea of I don't know how
• 43:08
  Loren: much Pope Leo really is a baseball fan, but The promotions, I don't know if
• 43:13
  Loren: you've seen them, Martha, with the Chicago White Sox. Like they just did the my
• 43:17
  Loren: guess, Martha, you're missing out. Like
• 43:22
  Martha: I have not.
• 43:25
  Loren: they did like the Popat giveaway and it was such a hit they made like
• 43:29
  Loren: forty thousand Popats so every fan in attendant could get Popat. And then was what
• 43:34
  Loren: was even more fun, Martha, was between innings or they did like the passing of
• 43:39
  Loren: the piece and it was cr
• 43:44
  Martha: Okay.
• 43:45
  Loren: was creep. So there's like encouraging fans to say like peace be with you And
• 43:49
  Loren: I remember like seeing on social media s people saying like we should do this
• 43:54
  Loren: more in real life and like Yeah you should
• 43:59
  Martha: Wow, that's like real worlds colliding for you. Like church and baseball.
• 44:02
  Loren: Yeah. So yeah. So that I think that's like go wish someone like go wish
• 44:07
  Loren: someone peace. Like that's what I would maybe that's what's coming to mind mind right
• 44:12
  Loren: now in this moment. Like go wish someone God's peace.
• 44:17
  Martha: Okay, alright, that's a good answer. How about a theologian or a historical Christian figure
• 44:22
  Martha: who you would like to chat with, bring back to life, have a meal with?
• 44:27
  Martha: Who would it be? Who's your number one?
• 44:33
  Loren: You know, I'll say this yeah, I'll say this just because I was working on
• 44:38
  Loren: I'm preaching at a church this weekend and I'm thinking about him in relation to
• 44:43
  Loren: my sermon from Romans thirteen, Augustine. I guess the you know, this is sort of
• 44:48
  Loren: wild to think about, like Aug Romans thirteen what, thirteen through fourteen was like his
• 44:53
  Loren: sort of come to Jesus scripture that found he found to be transordinative. So like
• 44:58
  Loren: Augustine, I don't know about you, Martha, but I in my seminary training, like Augustine
• 45:03
  Loren: was sort of sort of like a complicated figure. I
• 45:09
  Martha: Right.
• 45:10
  Loren: don't know what you got from seminary and and fourth training, but I think like
• 45:15
  Loren: I sort of wonder, like as I was thinking about this and him for the
• 45:20
  Loren: sermon and even more broadly, like you sort of wonder like if if his sort
• 45:25
  Loren: of like angst I I f like I was thinking about in connection with like
• 45:30
  Loren: Jonathan Heights. anxious generation book like like for Augustine there was no shortage of pleasure
• 45:35
  Loren: and he he was still so deeply unsatisfied and I guess that's where the the
• 45:40
  Loren: Jonathan Height connection comes from because like with kids and even adults and our phones
• 45:45
  Loren: like there's no shortage of pleasure and scrolling to be had but
• 45:50
  Martha: Mm. Mm-hmm.
• 45:51
  Loren: so many of us are so still deeply unsatisfied. So I think that might make
• 45:55
  Loren: an interesting conversation.
• 46:00
  Martha: You'd like to talk to Augustine?
• 46:02
  Loren: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:03
  Martha: Okay. All right.
• 46:05
  Loren: Get him like get him like on the podcast and be like, Augustine, what do
• 46:08
  Loren: you think about Jonathan Hyde's book and your own experience?
• 46:12
  Martha: Yeah, well I think bringing him into dialogue with some others would be really interesting.
• 46:16
  Martha: I mean, you're definitely picking a heavy hitter. Like he's
• 46:21
  Loren: Yeah.
• 46:22
  Martha: one of the one of the big giants, for sure. It's had a big impact
• 46:28
  Martha: for better and for worse. Lots of for better. But you know, he's he's controversial.
• 46:35
  Loren: Yeah.
• 46:38
  Martha: All right, what will history remember from our current time and place?
• 46:43
  Loren: Well, this is where I'm reminded of another guest you had, Mike Cosper, in his
• 46:46
  Loren: interview. His
• 46:50
  Martha: Hm.
• 46:51
  Loren: answer to this question, Martha, has always stuck with me where he said something the
• 46:56
  Loren: fact of like how Elon Musk will be remembered will tell a lot about how
• 47:01
  Loren: like society turned out. Like
• 47:06
  Martha: Mm-hmm.
• 47:07
  Loren: another book I got at the library with that Pope book was this book called
• 47:14
  Loren: Anger, Fear and Domination. dark passions and the power of political speech. I think certainly
• 47:22
  Loren: I think Political speech. Yeah, I think that's something that at least American political speech,
• 47:30
  Loren: I think, gosh, it's gonna be studied for poof.
• 47:38
  Martha: Yeah. So so kind of T V D, I guess, on what we remember
• 47:45
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:46
  Martha: from our time and place. Yeah. I mean I I would certainly like to think
• 47:51
  Martha: that that in the grand scheme of things like Trump is not going to be
• 47:56
  Martha: remembered kindly and neither will Elon Musk, but I guess I guess, yeah, T V
• 48:01
  Martha: D
• 48:07
  Loren: Well, and I suppose hopefully we're not getting too deep into this, Martha, but I
• 48:12
  Loren: this struck me the other day 'cause I this is certainly a distinctly American phenomenon,
• 48:18
  Loren: but it really hit me like certainly in America in recent history in America, like
• 48:24
  Loren: there's been a lot of controversy around Confederate memorials, for instance, especially
• 48:30
  Martha: Hmm, right.
• 48:31
  Loren: as many of them were built post Civil War. And it really it really hit
• 48:36
  Loren: me that so you know the current president, President Trump is doing a lot of
• 48:41
  Loren: a lot of building projects. And it sort of like makes sense. Like that's what
• 48:47
  Loren: Deeply unpopular leaders do who want to preserve their legacy when they know their legacy
• 48:52
  Loren: will not be looked upon kindly.
• 48:58
  Martha: Interesting. Yeah, that's an interesting note. Yeah, for sure.
• 49:02
  Loren: Yeah. Like 'cause I think that's like I sort of think like, is that what
• 49:06
  Loren: those Confederate apologists, if I can use that word, were doing saying like, ooh, history's
• 49:10
  Loren: not gonna look kindly upon
• 49:15
  Martha: Yeah.
• 49:16
  Loren: our our memory. So what's let's let's shape the narrative now.
• 49:22
  Martha: Yeah. Wow, that's really insightful. it's a big final closing question, but what are your
• 49:28
  Martha: hopes for the future of Christianity?
• 49:35
  Loren: Yeah, I mean I think every day I sort of can get more discouraged and
• 49:41
  Loren: despondent about The practical practical economics of the church and think like, gosh, like, you
• 49:47
  Loren: know, is there even like money to be made or a job for me to
• 49:53
  Loren: be had and, you know, my f my colleagues in the future? Like I don't
• 49:59
  Loren: think we can be, you know, practically speaking, too optimistic about where things were headed
• 50:05
  Loren: or, you know, the broader cultural dynamics of at least my country. but as again
• 50:11
  Loren: I like I I'll go back to the sermon I was working on this morning,
• 50:17
  Loren: like Romans thirteen, like Romans thirteen, eleven and twelve, like salvation is nearer to us
• 50:23
  Loren: now than when we first became believers. So this sort of like trusting God's promise,
• 50:29
  Loren: not my own promise, and like like Jesus said, right, the gates of hell will
• 50:35
  Loren: not prevail against the church and That's sort of I think where I try to
• 50:41
  Loren: lean on when I'm like looking at all the all the everything else and being
• 50:47
  Loren: like, This is not good.
• 50:54
  Martha: Yeah, yeah, I think that's I think that's right on the nose. Thank you. Where
• 50:59
  Martha: can people find more about you, Loren? How can they connect with you,
• 51:05
  Loren: Well, Martha
• 51:07
  Martha: Loren?
• 51:08
  Loren: would love for people to continue to listen and subscribe to the podcast. I've been
• 51:13
  Loren: working on updating my social media presence, so I think anywhere at Loren Richmond Junior
• 51:19
  Loren: dot or well at the website but at Loren Richmond Junior is meant to be
• 51:25
  Loren: all the the the channels or the threads, the handles.
• 51:31
  Martha: Okay, so that's easy enough. Well, congratulations on the new book, September the eighth. I
• 51:36
  Martha: think it's an excellent resource. Everybody should pick it up and read it and send
• 51:42
  Martha: your thoughts and stories into Loren. It can be really like the writing process can
• 51:48
  Martha: be pretty lonely at times and I it's exciting when you get to share it
• 51:53
  Martha: and spark conversations with other people. So I encourage encourage listeners to spark those. conversations.
• 51:59
  Martha: And yeah, yeah. Okay.
• 52:05
  Loren: I gotta ask you this, Martha. I gotta ask you this before we go. Do
• 52:09
  Loren: you have like one piece of like to steal my soul against that one sort
• 52:13
  Loren: of like criticism that just like unexpectedly like pierces your heart? Like what advice do
• 52:17
  Loren: you have for that? Cause I'm like, I'm trying to like just prepare myself for
• 52:21
  Loren: like any you know, any news is good news or you know, any any PR
• 52:25
  Loren: is good PR sort of thing. But also I imagine there's there's something probably for
• 52:29
  Loren: you, right? And imagine for
• 52:34
  Martha: Yeah.
• 52:34
  Loren: me that you're just gonna be like, I did not see that coming, that hurts.
• 52:38
  Martha: Yeah. I mean like Miss Thin Skinned over here is probably like not the best
• 52:44
  Martha: person to give you advice about that except to say. I I think what one
• 52:51
  Martha: of my friends said to me when I had to deal with a bad review
• 52:58
  Martha: recently, and a little bit of online hate this spring was like, you know, take
• 53:05
  Martha: it as a compliment that your book is getting out there 'cause like
• 53:12
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 53:12
  Martha: the more it gets out there, the more you're going to get mixed reactions. So
• 53:18
  Martha: And I I guess I would also pass along to you the advice that my
• 53:25
  Martha: daughter sometimes says and she says this particularly in terms of when women get criticized.
• 53:31
  Martha: But I think it I think it goes broader than just for women. you know,
• 53:38
  Martha: you must be doing something right.
• 53:45
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 53:46
  Martha: So yeah, like if they People have stuff to say to you. You must be
• 53:51
  Martha: you must be touching a live wire somewhere, so you must be doing something right.
• 53:57
  Loren: I hope so. Yeah.
• 54:01
  Martha: Okay, well good luck. I'll be praying for you and
• 54:03
  Loren: Yeah, thank you.
• 54:05
  Martha: and we always l end with the word of peace and I think that's especially
• 54:07
  Martha: important when you're about to put your baby out into the world. So may God's
• 54:10
  Martha: peace be with you, Loren.
• 54:13
  Loren: Yeah. Thank you, and also with you.