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Bonus Ep 01: First Encounter · psychophobia* podcast

0:03
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Psychophobia Podcast.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: I love you, man.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: This is real.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: All right, so psychophobia, psycho-phobia, mind, fear.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about the fear of the mind.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Why is that important?
0:26
SPEAKER_00: What does it mean?
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's so many different levels to it.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: If you think of the average American, you're not even in the fear of the mind.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: You're in an aversion to the discomfort of the mind.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: I feel sad.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: Good, because that means we can come around you and offer you support.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: I feel sad.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you must be depressed.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Let's get you on this pill.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Why?
1:01
SPEAKER_01: Because it's a pattern of people who
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Intergenerationally, do not know their mind.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Right?
1:10
SPEAKER_01: In Indigenous, people might go, Brandon, Brandon's sad.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Come on.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
1:18
SPEAKER_01: What do you need?
1:19
SPEAKER_01: You need... You're a bit short of... Who's got some extra coin?
1:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Brandon.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: You need to go... Let's do a dance tonight.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Come on.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Let's get a dance.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Let's get some music going for Brandon.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Right?
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: It had a, every kind of emotion that we talk about has a function, even paranoia.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: If I'm going to cross the road,
1:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to,
1:43
SPEAKER_01: unless I'm in the matrix, I want to look left and right, I can't be sure, right?
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Unless I have some sort of galactic protection.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: Paranoia has use until it's out of whack.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Anxiety.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Right, how much medication is given for anxiety?
2:02
SPEAKER_01: Anxiety can tell us what's not quite right.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Existential anxiety, it can be our friend, right?
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Arguably the first emotion.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Do I eat the apple or not?
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Kekegaard, that's from Kekegaard.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: That's from Kekegaard.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: But if we don't know our mind,
2:20
SPEAKER_01: then if something unusual appears in our mind,
2:24
SPEAKER_01: we might be really fearful and frightened.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Right?
2:29
SPEAKER_01: So the whole challenge in the lab was to show if you hallucinate, so what?
2:36
SPEAKER_01: It's not hallucination that's a problem, it's what we tell ourselves about it.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Is it an evil spirit?
2:42
SPEAKER_01: Is it demons?
2:43
SPEAKER_01: Am I losing my mind?
2:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like...
2:51
SPEAKER_01: Relax.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: Relax and it'll pass.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: Like this truck,
3:00
SPEAKER_01: there's no emotion that's permanent,
3:02
SPEAKER_01: there's no feeling state that goes on, just the awareness of it.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: But if that unusual experience is part of your own personal process,
3:13
SPEAKER_01: like for instance when people take LSD and they talk about a bad trip,
3:18
SPEAKER_01: often the bad trip is something that needs to be experienced.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: It's the monster in the nightmare.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: Instead of running from it, they need to look at it.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: But if that process is interrupted,
3:30
SPEAKER_01: if a mild psychotic break is not allowed to take its shape
3:37
SPEAKER_01: and it's medicated too quickly... To be integrated into the being.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: To be integrated.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: It's medicated into something else.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: But here's the rub.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: In a McDonaldized society where accountability is everything and liability, right?
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Are you going to sit with somebody in a psychotic state or are you going to like...
4:01
SPEAKER_01: I remember being on a team in England.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: I said to the lead psychiatrist, where's the hearing voices group?
4:08
SPEAKER_01: And he went, it's our job to eradicate hearing voices on this team.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: Right?
4:17
SPEAKER_01: So, knowing your mind, back to Orwell.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: So the party says, two and two make five.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: If you don't know your mind, then someone else can own it.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: A totalitarian state.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: The most depressing thing at the end of 1984 was when Winston,
4:40
SPEAKER_01: the protagonist, wrote two and two.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Two plus two equals five.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: They'd penetrated.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: Arguably the clue that the party had already penetrated him was when he went into room 101.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people miss this.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: So he goes into room 101 and room 101 is your greatest fear and his was rats.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: But how did the party know unless it already penetrated his mind?
5:11
SPEAKER_01: So if you think of AI, whoo,
5:13
SPEAKER_01: how does,
5:15
SPEAKER_01: how does Does Facebook know that I'm a hardened left-winger or right-winger?
5:21
SPEAKER_01: Which comes first?
5:23
SPEAKER_01: Am I a hardened left-winger or a right-winger, or has it been created by the party of deceit?
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Right?
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Have you already been penetrated?
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Do you already think two and two equals five?
5:42
SPEAKER_01: We need people to know that
5:45
SPEAKER_00: two and two makes four.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: You're talking about trusting yourself.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: You're talking about not taking information that's given to you.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: You're saying,
5:59
SPEAKER_00: everyone knows, when you look at two and two, you add it together, it equals four.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: In Orwell, they said, no, it equals five.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: And because they were in power, they were able to force that It's a feigned reality.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a fake reality, right?
6:19
SPEAKER_00: You're saying
6:23
SPEAKER_00: the way that this potentially manifests in
6:29
SPEAKER_00: our world is
6:30
SPEAKER_00: that people have their ideas and they hold them as though they're their ideas.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: But what you're asking is, where did they come from?
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Who gave them to you?
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cool.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: But that takes a high degree of consciousness to have that level of self-reflection.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: I think it just takes someone pointing it out.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: But we're in a post-modern sphere,
7:06
SPEAKER_01: which means Positivism in the academy has been attacked to the point
7:14
SPEAKER_01: where it's relativism.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Which is, we've all got our own truth.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: But there is an absolute truth.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Right?
7:27
SPEAKER_01: But the way it is being portrayed and taught is all hierarchies are wrong.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: 20 years ago, I studied postmodernism.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: And postmodernism was a philosophy of liberation because it was looking at
7:45
SPEAKER_01: the things that are constructed socially that end up oppressing.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: So if you take
7:55
SPEAKER_01: the age of consent, it's kind of like arbitrary, it's created through laws.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: If you take England... Sure.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: The age of consent, I think, was 21 for gay folk, right?
8:06
SPEAKER_01: That was like an arbitrary figure,
8:07
SPEAKER_01: but it meant that people could have been sent to jail instead of 18.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: So social constructionism would have been writing a paper going,
8:14
SPEAKER_01: look, this is an arbitrary number.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: It's not fair because of teenage and blah, blah, blah, and it would deconstruct it.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: Twenty years later,
8:24
SPEAKER_01: post-modernism,
8:25
SPEAKER_01: instead of attacking dominant hierarchies like patriarchy,
8:29
SPEAKER_01: right, or certain supremacies, it targeted all hierarchy.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: So it manifested in males are bad, rich gay guys are bad, anything oppressor and oppressed.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Politically, academically, I have no interest.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: My interest was if you throw out all hierarchy,
8:54
SPEAKER_01: you throw out the potential for spiritual hierarchy.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: You throw out the potential for anyone who is at a higher vibrational frequency than you.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: You just won't recognize it.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: What, you're trying to dominate me?
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: By throwing out all hierarchy, you assert yourself as the alpha.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: So that's really dangerous because that wipes out all the beauty,
9:27
SPEAKER_01: the philosophy,
9:28
SPEAKER_01: the teachings, the expertise that's been amassed over decades and decades.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Not the hierarchy of oppression, but the hierarchy of liberation.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: So basically they're pulling up the opportunity for people to self-liberate.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Black, white, green, pink, right?
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Who's they?
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Who is this?
9:57
SPEAKER_01: Who is they?
10:00
SPEAKER_01: The people who aren't connected to love and light.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: There are some people who are in such a state of distress that they actually are
10:08
SPEAKER_01: a huge risk to those around them,
10:11
SPEAKER_00: potentially themselves.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: So to be taken away for a three-day assessment where you're in a safe space,
10:19
SPEAKER_01: right, and assess with kindness and care, that's not a bad thing necessarily.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: One of the bad things about the three-day is it doesn't have to be three days.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: So say somebody's come in and they've been up all night and they've been partying
10:33
SPEAKER_01: and they're saying crazy things.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Someone with experience could go, Brandon, take a wee Valium here.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: 12 hours later it'll settle down, you'll be fine.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: But we're in a system that takes the full three days.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: We need a good label.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Psychotic break.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: Because we've got juicy meds for that, right?
11:00
SPEAKER_01: We don't really have a lot of,
11:01
SPEAKER_01: there's not a lot of currency in you leaving before the three days.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: There's no currency in you going without anything.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: That's not cynical, that's the truth, right?
11:11
SPEAKER_01: It's not that it's conscious necessarily,
11:14
SPEAKER_01: it's just the system that we've slipped into where I'm sure you say to nurse,
11:19
SPEAKER_01: you know, that person, they call it a three day, but you could be out in one.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: And I preface this by saying these laws vary by state,
11:27
SPEAKER_01: state by state, but principally they're very, very similar.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: So I have to go back.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: If you are in a state of distress and you're put in a prison-like conditions
11:37
SPEAKER_01: and you're woken up every 15 minutes and people aren't encountering you,
11:41
SPEAKER_01: it's manufacturing madness potentially, it's making it worse.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people end up in those states because of grief and loss and shock,
11:52
SPEAKER_01: marriages ending, job redundancy, friends, right?
11:57
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't manifest on its own.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: So I've never met anyone on a psychiatric ward.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: You go, how was your sleep last night?
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, fantastic.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: I had a great night's sleep.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: It's usually, you know, I haven't slept in days.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, what happened when my husband dies?
12:14
SPEAKER_01: My family tried to take all my money.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a huge environmental component.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: So I had- Certain selling.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: It's a set, set and setting, indeed.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: So I have to go back to, you said, we don't need to mention the holiday weekend.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: The point about the holiday weekend is if you're taken to a hospital on
12:37
SPEAKER_01: a Friday night for an assessment on a holiday weekend,
12:41
SPEAKER_01: your assessment doesn't start until the Monday,
12:44
SPEAKER_01: which means you've had three days,
12:46
SPEAKER_01: have been woken up every 15 minutes,
12:48
SPEAKER_01: in some cases five minutes, night and day observed.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: Before the true assessment starts.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: So what I'm arguing is I would like to see a psychiatrist go in for three days
13:01
SPEAKER_01: and three nights being monitored and see what sort of state of mind they are on
13:06
SPEAKER_01: a Monday.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: And I propose it's only a meditator or special forces or a combination of both
13:13
SPEAKER_01: who could withstand those conditions, let alone three, six days.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: That's intense psychologically, emotionally.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: You said the word encounter and I know what that means.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: I've worked with you for a while.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: But when you say this person's been in,
13:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:30
SPEAKER_00: a psych ward for three days,
13:33
SPEAKER_00: being woken up every 15 minutes and they haven't even been encountered yet.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
13:38
SPEAKER_00: What does encounter have to do with it?
13:43
SPEAKER_01: It's a great question.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: So the reason I paused, because I was trying to think, is an encounter always positive?
13:56
SPEAKER_01: So I'm using it always in the positive.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: So if a police officer comes into the home on the basis of collateral information,
14:02
SPEAKER_01: oh, my wife's really gone, whatever.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: They come into the home.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: They will listen to the collateral information and see how the person is behaving.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: If there's no violence and no aggression,
14:13
SPEAKER_01: but they're saying wacky things,
14:16
SPEAKER_01: they'll put handcuffs on them and they'll put them in a gurney and take them
14:19
SPEAKER_01: to hospital.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: So you're saying if they're not doing anything wrong other than saying things
14:26
SPEAKER_00: that are not normal,
14:32
SPEAKER_00: someone could be handcuffed for saying something?
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, how would you define someone who has got a mental health issue?
14:44
SPEAKER_01: Why would they ever be put in an ambulance?
14:47
SPEAKER_01: Not all of them pose a risk.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, the collateral information will say they pose a risk.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: So you could separate it from people who have assaulted somebody
14:59
SPEAKER_01: or they've actually done something physical.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: That's pretty conclusive if it's true.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: And then you have what people say.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: So are they saying like they're Jesus or are they grandiose?
15:15
SPEAKER_01: Are they threatening people?
15:17
SPEAKER_01: Or are they sounding like they're threatening people?
15:19
SPEAKER_01: Or are they sounding like they're grandiose?
15:21
SPEAKER_01: Those are very different things.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: The police aren't there to do an assessment.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: They're there to protect and serve.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: I could get into the whole thing about how that puts it off balance because
15:33
SPEAKER_01: to balance protection and service, you need trust.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of the times people do not trust the individual's own experience.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: So the place will come into the house,
15:47
SPEAKER_01: The husband's saying the wife's going off the rails.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: She's saying wacky things.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: She sounds elevated.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: Maybe she hasn't slept because the marriage is in tatters and the husband's trying
15:58
SPEAKER_01: to do whatever, right?
16:02
SPEAKER_01: Revenge.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: The person involved isn't encountered.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: They're labeled manic, psychotic, danger of themselves, danger of others.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: The minute Handcuff goes on, they're not a person anymore, they're product.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: The ambulance rides,
16:24
SPEAKER_01: how many X a thousand,
16:25
SPEAKER_01: the ER visit, they are products, right, in the system that we are in.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: So if you go back and go, oh, that sounds really far-fetched.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, where's the care and compassion?
16:37
SPEAKER_01: So what you're saying is this person is ill, you're using your medical model.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: So you're taking an ill person and putting them in handcuffs.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: If this person had cancer and the police came in and they put the cancer person
16:53
SPEAKER_01: in handcuffs and said,
16:53
SPEAKER_01: you're coming to hospital because we're going to treat you whether you like it
16:56
SPEAKER_01: or not, people would be up in arms.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: The reason people are up in arms is because it's really convenient for it to be them
17:04
SPEAKER_01: and not you.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: They're the mad ones.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: We're the corporate elite.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: We're not mad, because we let people starve to death and keep all that money in it.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: We're not mad, they're mad.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: You don't want me like them, do you?
17:23
SPEAKER_00: Someone who is denoted as potentially being a harm to themselves or others,
17:28
SPEAKER_00: what are some of the things that they say?
17:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a great question because I felt that surrounding me when I went into
17:35
SPEAKER_01: the silence challenge.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: There's one thing talking about psychophobia
17:39
SPEAKER_01: and there's another thing I actually experienced in it.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: And part of the psychophobia experience is you internalize it.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't afraid of going into the silence.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: I'd been in solitary retreats, lived in a retreat center.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: But when people started talking about it,
17:56
SPEAKER_01: my partner was talking about,
17:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:59
SPEAKER_01: an ambulance and these types of things,
18:02
SPEAKER_01: I was going, what if it kind of goes wrong in there?
18:07
SPEAKER_01: But your question is,
18:09
SPEAKER_01: anything that's threatening, Right,
18:11
SPEAKER_01: so one of my favourite stories from,
18:15
SPEAKER_01: old stories from the time of Christ,
18:19
SPEAKER_01: was when he started to go out and talk to people,
18:21
SPEAKER_01: there were crowds, his family went, whoa, Jesus, they brought him home, right?
18:28
SPEAKER_01: So if this is meant to be,
18:31
SPEAKER_01: whatever your relationship with that person is,
18:34
SPEAKER_01: whether it's, oh,
18:35
SPEAKER_01: he was a great teacher or whatever,
18:37
SPEAKER_01: it's a funny story, because you can't deny, what was his message?
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Love.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: You know,
18:44
SPEAKER_01: in a way,
18:45
SPEAKER_01: the family foresaw the risk that he posed because eventually he got tortured
18:50
SPEAKER_01: and murdered for him.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: As we were talking earlier, so many other people who
18:56
SPEAKER_00: I have a dream.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: And is that a common experience now?
19:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean,
19:01
SPEAKER_00: that same sort of experience where someone maybe goes through what we would call
19:04
SPEAKER_00: a psychotic or a manic episode of some sort,
19:08
SPEAKER_00: and they're saying,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: kind of like your story about Jesus,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: where they're saying, listen, it's all one, man.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Or is it typically different things?
19:17
SPEAKER_00: Is it similar or different from that story of Jesus?
19:22
SPEAKER_01: So my The whole argument is, a psychiatrist wouldn't know.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Because a psychiatrist is looking at the phenomenology of form.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: So this goes back to Jaspers.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: When Jaspers, uh, Carl Jaspers tried to categorize mental health, he came up with form.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: You hear voices, you are paranoid.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Form is schizophrenia, precox, or whatever he called it, right?
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Don't talk to Brandon because he's got this thing.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Don't talk about any of the content.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: We know what the form is.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: He's deluded.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay, leave him alone.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: That's where the genesis of not encountering someone in a psychotherapy.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: True phenomenology is what
20:14
SPEAKER_01: You said you heard a voice.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: Where, Brandon?
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Did you hear it?
20:19
SPEAKER_01: Did you hear it here?
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Where?
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Was it a loud voice?
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Was it a female voice?
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Was it a non-gender voice?
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Help me understand your experience.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Help me encounter you because I really want to connect on the level of heart.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: That's an encounter.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: This is not an encounter.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh, can you hear the voice?
20:42
SPEAKER_01: I just hear the voice.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: What about the FB, FB, uh, Paranix, Ideas of Grandeur.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: Kickbox, Big Mac and Fries, boom, off you go.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: That's an intake.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm exaggerating,
20:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm being dramatic,
21:00
SPEAKER_01: but that is,
21:01
SPEAKER_01: I can give you the form,
21:02
SPEAKER_01: is to see what we require someone to fill in,
21:07
SPEAKER_01: what we require someone to fill in,
21:08
SPEAKER_01: so they can't possibly have time for an encounter,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: unless they're brilliant, and if it's sort of memorised.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: Some people can make it look not like a form.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Young clinician, just trained.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I need to fill in this.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm losing my mind over here.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: You're filling in a form?
21:27
SPEAKER_01: It's not their fault.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Somebody's fault though.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: How do we fix it?
21:34
SPEAKER_01: How do we fix it?
21:36
SPEAKER_01: By one encounter at a time.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: By teaching people,
21:45
SPEAKER_01: by teaching people how to encounter,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: but they need to encounter themselves first often.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: Often they don't.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: They spiritually bypass.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm the healer.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: No, not you, you're the sick one.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: When actually they need to, you know, the physician heal thyself, that's usually jumped over.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: In my experience in working with training,
22:08
SPEAKER_01: as a training analyst, sometimes they catch up when they hit a wall.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: The patient is usually the person who brings them up against themselves
22:18
SPEAKER_01: and they realize, I need to do more work.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: Freud used to suggest every five years an analyst should go through analysis again.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Some clinicians have never had therapy.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: They don't want all means.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't make any sense.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: So you're a psychiatrist and you've met me for 15 minutes and you want to give me
22:43
SPEAKER_01: an antipsychotic because apparently I'm manic.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Michael, I've been,
22:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:55
SPEAKER_00: observing you for the last 15-20 minutes and I think it's appropriate for us
22:59
SPEAKER_00: to prescribe you a psychotic, antipsychotic.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: Have you tried it?
23:06
SPEAKER_00: No.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: Why not?
23:11
SPEAKER_00: Because I've never actually experienced a state like what you're going through actually.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean, what state?
23:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, based on what I've observed,
23:22
SPEAKER_00: you're experiencing what we would call,
23:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, is this what you would say, a psychotic break?
23:28
SPEAKER_01: So, let me get this straight, doctor.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: You don't really understand what I'm experiencing,
23:34
SPEAKER_01: and you're going to give me a drug that you've no experience of
23:38
SPEAKER_01: and you've never tried?
23:41
SPEAKER_01: So why haven't you tried that?
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Why are you asking me to take something
23:43
SPEAKER_01: that you've never tried that's potentially gonna do something really intense
23:48
SPEAKER_01: to my mind?
23:50
SPEAKER_00: Because it's in your best interest.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: How would you know what my best interest is?
23:58
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm a professional.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, have you seen the degrees on my wall?
24:04
SPEAKER_01: What's that got to do with encountering me right now?
24:08
SPEAKER_01: I could wipe my arse with him.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, but you see what I mean?
24:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: But that's not in people's experience.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: How the psychiatrist, how they respond is, are you crazy?
24:24
SPEAKER_01: What would I take it for?
24:25
SPEAKER_01: It's dangerous, those drugs.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: Stevie Nicks story.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: Remember?
24:30
SPEAKER_01: She said to the psychiatrist, why are you, he went, what are you trying to kill yourself?
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Or kill him giving the meds to the friend.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: So if you take all the recreational drug users,
24:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean recreational,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: people who use psychedelics for occasionally and dance and all the rest,
24:50
SPEAKER_01: they have a much better understanding of mind than the average psychiatrist
24:55
SPEAKER_01: who hasn't.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: Do you understand?
24:58
SPEAKER_01: Because they have their mind.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: I understand.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: And they take a chemical.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: And if they can hold the awareness, they can see the effect.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: So here you have these non-spiritual,
25:11
SPEAKER_01: very powerful,
25:12
SPEAKER_01: often white elite men who are telling people of different cultures,
25:18
SPEAKER_01: different genders, different sexualities.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Your experience is wrong.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
25:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to give you a mind-altering pill to help you.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: I haven't tried it.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure what it does.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: Pfizer says it's good.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: And you don't want to take it.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: Security, hold them down and they'll inject it into you.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Sounds dramatic.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: It happens every day.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: It's only traumatic because of the way I'm telling it.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: It's not dramatic and it's not funny.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's dramatic to every person who goes through it.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's something that needs to be told.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: It is life altering for those who go through it.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: We started off talking about psychophobia and what it means and we just ended
26:09
SPEAKER_00: with love and light.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Could you say that psychophobia means love?
26:20
SPEAKER_00: That shedding the light on psychophobia societally,
26:26
SPEAKER_00: psychiatrically and in each of us is really about Learning to love yourself
26:35
SPEAKER_00: and everyone else?
26:38
SPEAKER_00: To wrap?
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: Of course,
26:41
SPEAKER_01: because,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: you know, theology is not of any interest, but somebody goes, love one another.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm with you!
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Because what's the opposite?
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Hate each other?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Let's be generous.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: What's the opposite?
26:57
SPEAKER_01: Let's not.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: There was a thing on LinkedIn recently,
27:00
SPEAKER_01: and somebody had written,
27:01
SPEAKER_01: in no disrespect,
27:03
SPEAKER_01: You know,
27:03
SPEAKER_01: does this mean that maybe we should treat psychotic patients with a more humane...
27:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what's the opposite?
27:11
SPEAKER_01: Treating them inhumanely?
27:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're laughing because it's true.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm laughing because it's ridiculous.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: But it's also true.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: It's also true.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: Love you, man.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Tune in.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Psychophobia.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: Follow us on Substack.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Where else?
27:32
SPEAKER_00: Substack, YouTube, LinkedIn, let's see, and everywhere you get your podcasts.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: Psychophobia.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: Just like you'd think to spell it.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: Unless you're the slastic like man.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: Unless you're the slastic like Michael.
27:47
[music]