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Transcript

The 100th Episode Extravaganza · New Worlder

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the New Worlder podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: I am your host, Nicholas Gill.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is a very special 100th episode of this podcast.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's not something I ever expected to say.
• 0:17
  I really had no understanding of what it takes to launch a
• 0:20
  podcast when I started.
• 0:22
  I just started recording conversations with friends and
• 0:25
  colleagues and posting them online.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: To be fair, that's still basically what it is.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: But I think I've become a little bit better about how I go about it.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: I have Julie,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 0:38
  as a co-host and to ask intelligent questions and grasp big
• 0:43
  concepts that I miss.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a little more comfortable interviewing people now.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a better understanding of who makes a good guest.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Some thoughts about food,
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: cooking and life are very different than they were four years ago,
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: while others are pretty much the same.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Even though it was just a few years ago,
• 1:04
  the world seems like a very different kind of place than it was
• 1:08
  in April of 2019.
• 1:09
  We were still in the midst of the pandemic and everyone was
• 1:15
  trying to think of what
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: direction the world was going to go.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: What was going to happen to restaurants?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: to hunger, to food systems, to ecosystems.
• 1:25
  Everyone had taken a step back and was starting to have a new
• 1:28
  perspective on things.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Very quickly, however, we all became caught up in the same problems.
• 1:36
  I think we are still sorting ourselves out from the pandemic,
• 1:39
  especially as it relates to food.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: We're still trying to envision what the future looks like.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: It is really fucking messy right now.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: For this episode, I wanted to try...
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: And think well into the future,
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: not just the next 5,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: 10,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: or 20 years,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: which I think are going to be rough,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: but 100 years away.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Can we imagine what that is going to look like?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: What are we going to be eating?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: How are we going to be producing this food?
• 2:10
  How are we going to feed the extra 2 billion people on the
• 2:13
  planet when the Earth's
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: population peaks in 60 years?
• 2:19
  I asked three people I have known for a very long time to
• 2:22
  appear on this episode.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: All three have been past guests.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: They are extremely different people from very different backgrounds,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: and I have a deep respect for all of them and the work that they do.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I would never have imagined I could get them in a room together.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's Giuliana Fersi from Chile,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: who founded the Fungi Foundation,
• 2:45
  and literally has and is changing the legal framework around
• 2:48
  fungi in the world.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's Nephi Craig,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: the chef of Cafe Gozo in White River,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Arizona,
• 2:57
  whose vision for ancestral food systems extends far beyond
• 3:01
  kitchen skills.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: And lastly, Andrea Petrini, the Italian writer and founder of Gelinas.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: who is continually questioning the idea of art as it relates to cooking.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Of course,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: there's also Juliana Duque,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: my co-host,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: who brings her own anthropological background to the conversation.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: They are all some of my favorite people.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: They are people that continually fight for what they believe in,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: but they always do it with love.
• 3:31
  It's something to aspire to,
• 3:32
  and it was an honor to converse with them here.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'll leave it at that enjoy episode 100
• 4:23
  right hi everyone thank you for coming this is our 100th
• 4:29
  episode of the podcast i i
• 4:31
  didn't really know what i was doing 100 episodes ago and i
• 4:35
  probably still don't
• 4:36
  know what i'm doing for some reason more and more people keep
• 4:38
  listening to it
• 4:39
  though so and thankfully juliana has been here for the past
• 4:42
  year helping make it
• 4:43
  much more better when i started recording in april of 2021 it's
• 4:48
  what like almost
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: three and a half years ago
• 4:53
  The world was kind of trying to come together after getting
• 4:56
  through the worst of the pandemic.
• 4:59
  And I started interviewing friends and colleagues that I had
• 5:02
  not spoken to in a year or two.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: I was just asking them how they were doing,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: how they were adjusting,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: and just kind of seeing what their outlook was going forward.
• 5:12
  I thought these conversations would help me understand what the
• 5:15
  next few years would be like.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: But to be honest, I'm probably more confused than ever now.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: after the collective experience we had with the pandemic,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: I thought the world would maybe start coming together.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: But it just seems like, you know, we're just further divided.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: People are, you know, still being manipulated by fear.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Biodiversity is being lost.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Cultural traditions are disappearing.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Politics is unstable everywhere.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the planet is just, you know, falling apart.
• 5:49
  But at the same time,
• 5:50
  I think we have a better understanding of the world problems,
• 5:55
  at least.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: While we might not be able to sort them out in the near term,
• 6:00
  I think there's a very real possibility humanity could maybe
• 6:04
  get its shit together
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: in a century and the world will look very different.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought for this very special 100th episode,
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: we could kind of step back and just let our minds wander and
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Try to imagine the world in 100 years as it relates to food.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I consider all of you friends,
• 6:24
  but I have also always respected the vision each of you have in
• 6:27
  your respective
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: fields and just in life in general.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you're all very, very different.
• 6:33
  But one thing you have in common is that you aren't afraid to
• 6:37
  think outside the box
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: and to allow yourself to have big ideas and dreams,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: even if they aren't always appreciated as much as they could be.
• 6:46
  So thank you all again for coming today,
• 6:50
  and let's try to imagine the future of food in 21-25.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: To start off,
• 6:57
  how do you think we will need to adapt our food situation in
• 7:04
  the next century to
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: still survive on this planet?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Who wants to go first?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Juliana, there we go.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Julie, sorry.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to call you Julie and Juliana.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, first of all, thank you, Nick, and congratulations on 100.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's perseverance and discipline and a vision.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: And huge congratulations.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: I've enjoyed so many of them.
• 7:32
  But to answer your question,
• 7:33
  I think we inevitably are going to go towards rotten mold.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's not rock and roll anymore.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: We know that.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: We've known that for a while.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's rotten mold.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: We need to let things rot.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: We've let it rock for a long time.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: Now we've got to let things rot.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: We've got to start eating,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 7:53
  a lot of foods and ingredients that we think today are either
• 7:59
  waste or produced on
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: waste or from waste.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there has to be a clear shift
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: towards rotten mold and letting things rot.
• 8:10
  And that as a local way of being able to engage with waste as a
• 8:17
  food source,
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: because looking at waste,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: it's like saying weeds,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: In your garden,
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: until you know that a dandelion is edible or it has a beautiful flower,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: it's just a weed,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: something you're going to rip out.
• 8:31
  And I think there is a lot of food that is in the collective
• 8:35
  mind in that way.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone else?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'll raise my hand.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but Julie, I'm game.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm game.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because
• 8:55
  usual food is getting scarcer and scarcer less good than before
• 9:03
  more expensive and
• 9:04
  I have the impression that even if I care about the food that I
• 9:10
  buy at the local
• 9:11
  market and I'm quite freaky and I pay a lot of attention to
• 9:15
  what I buy what I eat,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: how to cook it I think that maybe it's not enough because
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: with certain efforts, I can do it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: I can choose the right thing to buy, but more and more people
• 9:33
  they don't have the means or they no longer have access to a
• 9:40
  better way of getting
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: their proper food.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And despite the fact that there is more consciousness,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: more awareness of the dangers of fast processed food,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: how you should eat,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: etc.,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: etc.,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the space, instead of getting bigger, is narrowing down.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Personally,
• 10:12
  I don't want to get out with my tote bags and go to the local
• 10:16
  market and buy good tomatoes,
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: but tomatoes that most of the people cannot afford.
• 10:26
  I understand the amount of energy that the producer is doing,
• 10:33
  etc.,
• 10:33
  etc.,
• 10:34
  and they are worth it.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: But if I do...
• 10:39
  if i play my part if you do your thing if the good neighbors
• 10:43
  the good people do i
• 10:45
  think and i fear that our politicians are stepping back even
• 10:52
  much in a much bigger
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: way than what you did before a few years ago even before
• 10:57
  the pandemic everybody was talking hey let's do something for
• 11:01
  climate change let's
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: push the shift to electric cars
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I live in Europe, I live in France.
• 11:15
  Maybe it's not the most democratic country in the world,
• 11:19
  but it's not a dictatorship.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's supposed to be rather liberal slash progressive.
• 11:25
  But even the last two governments,
• 11:28
  they're stepping back from what they called the...
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: They change to a proper way of producing electricity,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: they change for cars,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: they change for providing food for schools,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: proper food,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: etc.,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I feel, personally, more isolated than, say, five years ago.
• 11:52
  And I have the impression that things are going to get better
• 11:56
  in the short term.
• 11:58
  maybe we would need i don't know i'm not ironic a new deal for
• 12:05
  food a new deal for
• 12:07
  different countries really coming together and doing something
• 12:12
  doing something
• 12:13
  otherwise otherwise i even have the impression that if i do my
• 12:19
  little bit i'm part
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: of the privilege the so-called privileged and
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: My attention,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: my concern for doing things right is even used by reactionary parties
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: decredibilizing this consciousness for the health of the planet,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: for the renovated form of agriculture.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in France, people from the far right
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: are getting more and more aggressive.
• 12:57
  It's like in the States when they say,
• 13:00
  let's pump up the petrol,
• 13:02
  let's go back,
• 13:03
  and who cares?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: We need to provide more jobs to the people.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's happening all over Europe.
• 13:15
  The beginning of the question,
• 13:16
  what was the core of the beginning of the question?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was really listening intently to you there.
• 13:21
  How do you think we will need to adapt our food supply by 21-25
• 13:25
  to still kind of
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: live on the planet?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think...
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tough one.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've been thinking about this question since you asked me to be on here.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, by the way.
• 13:40
  I think there's like two ways to look at it,
• 13:42
  like best case scenario,
• 13:43
  worst case scenario.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 13:45
  Because like food and food trends and food access always seem
• 13:49
  to follow societal
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: trends and norms,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: power structures and cultural phenomenon as well.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's one point.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: It could be we've got to protect our food systems,
• 14:03
  but also we might have to come to a point where we will have to
• 14:06
  leverage those food
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: systems for our own protection because food can definitely be weaponized.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think we saw that already in the pandemic.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: We saw how scarcity in food, the foods, how delicate the food system was.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think anyone really woke up from that initial shock.
• 14:24
  I think for a moment in time,
• 14:26
  we were really aware of public health and food accessibility.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just went back to normal,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: back to the distractions,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: back to whatever else was taking place.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it even got worse.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: When you say food scarcity during the pandemic,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: it was like the sudden lack of grapeseed oil,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: which vanished all over Europe.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: What are you thinking exactly?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there were disruptions in wheat and all kinds of things.
• 15:04
  Just these industrialized,
• 15:06
  basically industrial products that we rely on were missing.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: They were missing from shelves.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't get to the point to where we're all starving.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: There was still enough of that crap to go around.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: But imagine if the pandemic...
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: lasted for five years,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:27
  and it was so severe that we couldn't leave our houses and just
• 15:32
  had to stick to
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: that same system,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: then it would,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: shit would have really gotten bad.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like there would have been people,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: just raiding houses and grocery stores and I don't know.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: But it's a sense of false reliance.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think that here, what there is, is that we're too used to
• 15:55
  being able to access foods and ingredients that weren't even in
• 16:01
  our imaginations
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: until suddenly we see it through a device,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: at some given point.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 16:08
  And there's total disregard in most cases for the incredible
• 16:12
  foods that one has
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: near geographically that are desired in some other geography.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: And one clear example of this is, for example, is quinoa.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: Quinoa,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: right,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: where a lot of indigenous people today can't even afford quinoa,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: which is their staple food forever.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: And quinoa is being shipped everywhere.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: thousands and hundreds of thousands of kilometers to other markets that,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: just the commodification of staple foods is what,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: and just this,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: this ability to,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: to access any ingredient that I think the main shift is there.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's, it's, it's, it's not sustainable.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I would like to think that in a hundred years,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: it's not about just clicking a few buttons,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: paying extra and getting,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: and,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: and,
• 17:02
  depleting a food source of people who might not have access to
• 17:06
  an ingredient from
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: where I am just by getting it shipped over.
• 17:09
  So it's like fundamentally fucked up that we can just eat
• 17:12
  anything we desire in
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: some countries and in other countries,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: you don't,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: there's no notion or access that's happening.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally agree.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: What I wrote down was like,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: when I was thinking about this,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's going to go one or two ways in a century.
• 17:36
  We either end up kind of eating like just 12 ingredients grown
• 17:41
  on an industrial scale,
• 17:43
  just because the earth has deteriorated so much that that's
• 17:46
  basically all that can
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: be grown,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: just...
• 17:49
  those like 12 things that can just be put together to create
• 17:53
  food looking substances.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just served like in capsules,
• 17:57
  like the fucking Jetsons or in those like weird soylent shakes
• 18:02
  or whatever that
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: were popular and probably LA for a few years.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if they're still around or,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:09
  or we completely shift to kind of an ecosystemic way of
• 18:13
  sourcing food and looking
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: at the world and,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 18:16
  in eating our regional food supplies and not expecting
• 18:20
  everything from everywhere
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: all at once all the time.
• 18:26
  Julie,
• 18:26
  do you think we can achieve that,
• 18:28
  the second part,
• 18:28
  the second option?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think if there's a change in an understanding of,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: the first thing I was saying is that what waste is,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: and,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: like food waste,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: there are so many things that we don't eat,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: not because they're not edible,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: but because maybe we're seeing on some fancy food channel,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: like a hot chef is just chucking it out.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: And you're like, well, if he's chucking it out, I'm chucking it out.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: That sort of shift.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: Or just processes where decomposition isn't the end of a food source.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so embracing the fact that what you have around you
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: has much more than what we know might be edible.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: And also,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: past the time that we're used to seeing something pristine and perfect,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: there might be another process that occurs that might be different,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: but it's edible and delicious as well.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's close to you.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I think shifting towards
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know, embracing decomposition, embracing waste.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think we can do it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Can you please give us a couple of examples to make me understand?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: But when you say you're going through waste and rotting.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: There are certain...
• 19:52
  We go to a grocery shop and we see an apple that has some
• 19:59
  penicillin on it.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: It has a mold on it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: It has a spot of mold.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody buys that.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody understands that you can...
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: maybe eat most of that apple.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: And also the mold that's growing on it,
• 20:12
  you can rub on a cut and you've got free penicillin and you're
• 20:15
  not giving it to the pharmaceutical.
• 20:17
  You've got two in one,
• 20:18
  you've got a double whammy with a rotten,
• 20:20
  with a semi rotten apple.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: Or just the fact that the process is that a lot of this,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: there's a modern shift towards
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: deliberately putting penicillin and molds on vegetables,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: right,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: in a controlled atmosphere in high-end restaurants,
• 20:41
  because there is an understanding and a move towards the fact
• 20:44
  that there are
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: processes that come from what today we think are negative,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: that are decomposition and rot,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: actually give a value to the food,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: give a value to the taste,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: and also don't produce the discarding of an ingredient.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: that you might have near you that might not be picture perfect, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: Not be preservation perfect.
• 21:08
  So I think that some of those examples where you can eat some
• 21:11
  moldy fruit,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: where the fact that,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: if the melon is not perfectly round,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: it doesn't mean,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: or oval,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: it doesn't mean it's a waste product,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: If it has a bulge on one side, it's fine to eat it.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: And we need to make that shift in our minds towards,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: this image,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: like the imagery of food in a certain color,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: shape,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: form,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: like consistency,
• 21:37
  as only one valid way with ingredients,
• 21:40
  I think that's really problematic.
• 21:46
  I like that because that could be the introduction to a history
• 21:51
  book at the end of fine dining.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Go tell all those glossy chefs.
• 21:59
  Go tell all the people who still go spend a shitload of money
• 22:05
  in glossy restaurants.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they keep entertaining the idea of perfection,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: of the sublime,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: of the beautiful,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: the most powerful.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: I personally like the imperfections.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean...
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not playing 30 seconds of glory on me,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: but the little organic market,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: which I don't even particularly like it,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: but every day they have damaged apples or brownish,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: whatever,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: or two days before bread or other stuff,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: and they sell it half price.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean...
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a little step,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: but on the other side,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Julie,
• 22:59
  go tell the Japanese that they only buy apples wrapped like
• 23:03
  jewels in jewelry shops.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: But probably the Japanese are the first that are going to be like...
• 23:16
  changed,
• 23:16
  I'm not going to use a harder word,
• 23:18
  because they're on an island.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they don't have more alternative, right?
• 23:22
  So there's a combination of what you have and the fact that you
• 23:25
  can't access anything.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: In 100 years,
• 23:29
  what fuel are we going to have to ship the Japanese perfect
• 23:32
  apples from Chile,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: for example?
• 23:35
  And maybe with the slower energy,
• 23:39
  will it get to Japan without a speck of mold?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't think so.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like think of a solar powered, you know, ship.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's probably not going to go as fast as a,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: this steam,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: whatever the hell,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: oil driven engine,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: crossing the Pacific,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: like it's going to be slower.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, maybe certain foods will get cut off from certain places.
• 24:11
  There is something that really troubles me in the fundamentals
• 24:15
  of these dynamics.
• 24:16
  And I think it's this obsession of the food industry with what
• 24:22
  the consumer wants.
• 24:24
  which is supposed to be determining,
• 24:27
  you know,
• 24:27
  food supply and food consumption.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it has to do,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: it has to be,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: it's related with what you were saying,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: Julie,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: about false reliance and Andrea,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: more is less and seems to be narrowing down instead of enriching us.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's this obsession,
• 24:48
  and I think AI and technology is obsessively being used or
• 24:52
  projected as a tool to
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: anticipate what the consumer wants.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, I think that's kind of a sick question because first,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: What the consumer wants right now in general,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: this abstract consumer,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: is so wrong and so unhealthy and so not even about food anymore.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about food anymore.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about healing.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about community.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's about commodification and individualization and...
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: customization,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: and that's not food anymore,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: that's not connecting with the environment,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: that's not feeling what the environment has to offer to fit you,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: imperfect or not,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: is complete disconnection of what food is.
• 25:45
  So I wonder why everywhere I see the consumer desire,
• 25:50
  it's an ill question.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it really troubles me.
• 25:57
  And I connected that with what you were saying about just a
• 26:00
  false reliance and zero
• 26:03
  sense of community and zero sense of healing and more being
• 26:10
  just less or zero or
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: deprivation and alienation and isolation.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 26:21
  It seems that the pandemic was,
• 26:23
  I mean,
• 26:23
  one very clear example of it was the sourdough starter.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, what happened there?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like when people couldn't go to the bakery every day,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: or they couldn't go and buy bread every two days or wherever,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: everybody suddenly became a fungus cultivator,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: Let's not forget that yeast are fungi.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone was cultivating fungi.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone was cultivating yeast.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone had their starter.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: People were baking, were making bread.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: Some of that stuck on,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: but the sense of false reliance on your local bakery,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: at least for fresh bread,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: was gone,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 27:00
  And people were understanding also in many places the process
• 27:04
  of making flours or
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: the fact that there's not only one type of flour,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: there are many types of flours,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think it's this...
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: just this, this full sense of, of reliance.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I think to,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: to your point,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: Andy,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's something about,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: all these,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: fine dining.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: I,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: I,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: I follow,
• 27:26
  I have some friends who are in the fine dining business and I
• 27:29
  follow their work and
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: I follow the space and,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 27:33
  it's incredible to see this shift towards like it's a massive
• 27:38
  evident shift towards
• 27:39
  seasonality locality um what nobody was eating uh seaweeds like
• 27:47
  what's in the
• 27:48
  intertidal fungi let's rot the food and make something um or
• 27:53
  you know just this
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: this this complete shift as if you know
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: because I think there's some sort of,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: also a lot of,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not actually going to speculate as to why,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: I better not,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: I might lose friends,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: but I want to say that there is a shift in the fine dining space,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: but it's sort of a further commodification of it,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: because,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: you're really sort of taking up to stratospheric prices,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: the possibility of local foods,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: seasonal foods,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: and it's sort of
• 28:25
  some way twisting against you know against the current where um
• 28:29
  yeah i see i don't
• 28:34
  know about you but i feel very ill at ease with this with these
• 28:40
  things i might go
• 28:41
  to one of these pioneering new interesting restaurants moving
• 28:46
  towards seaweed fungi
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: whatever but
• 28:51
  if the access the access the to this restaurant is even more
• 28:59
  than before reserved
• 29:01
  to a narrower niche of people hey houston we have a problem i
• 29:08
  can understand i can
• 29:09
  relate let's say those guys at the avant-garde they say they
• 29:15
  give the example then
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: the others will follow
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe, maybe.
• 29:23
  But it also contributes to create isolation,
• 29:28
  to create beautiful,
• 29:30
  inspiring ivory towers.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So my real question,
• 29:36
  the question that I ask myself most of the time when I go out
• 29:40
  for work or for
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: pleasure to a restaurant,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: how can we reduce the gap?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: How can...
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: How can we improve the conversation with different tribes of people?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you an example.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm joking, but I'm not.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: For,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: 20 years,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: we said,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: fine dining,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: great restaurants are for old farts,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: old boring people.
• 30:13
  And the right restaurants were with the young kids,
• 30:16
  youngsters in their 30s full of energy.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Nowadays, most of the time, I feel exactly the opposite.
• 30:26
  When I go to a restaurant and see there is a few older people
• 30:31
  and a 41 guy and a
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: couple of 20 something,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I feel,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 30:36
  there is something happening also because each restaurant is
• 30:41
  specializing is
• 30:44
  creating a dialogue which is reserved only to his own tribe it
• 30:49
  goes from around
• 30:51
  this meant from quarter to quarter in our cities it's a
• 30:56
  selection that comes with
• 30:58
  the price tag it's a selection that comes with the ingredients
• 31:03
  that they use with
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: the choices
• 31:05
  make i i feel the the space of freedom is narrowing down i
• 31:13
  don't know if i'm
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: getting paranoid but that for sure i'm getting more and more bored
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think like in the context of restaurant food service world,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think looking to the next 100 years,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: we can all all of us,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: we can think back the last 25 years.
• 31:37
  to when it was the best products were considered coming in from
• 31:42
  France or Europe.
• 31:43
  And that was highly prized,
• 31:45
  celebrated,
• 31:46
  and that was the height or the epitome of luxury then.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's changed within just in 25 years.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Social justice movements,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: societal norms,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: things like the murder of George Floyd,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: the pandemic,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: police brutality in America.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: In Europe too.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the next...
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: the next 25 years,
• 32:09
  we could probably stay on the same track if we don't get taken
• 32:13
  off the rails by
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: another pandemic or another epidemic.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think pandemics and epidemics are not just biological.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: They're also intellectual and emotional and spiritual.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: We look at...
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: colonialism, imperialism, capitalism as a disorder, right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: A large mass societal disorder that's global, right?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I think like the next 25 years,
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: if we're not interrupted by another,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:42
  dramatic change in our food system or access to fossil fuels or
• 32:45
  those kinds of items,
• 32:47
  we'll probably continue on this track with where the local
• 32:51
  sustainable fermentation,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: the stuff that no one wants to eat,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: more eating bugs,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: more crickets as kind of a trend.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it'll trickle down, but I think population wise,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And by the time we reach 2050 in the American Southwest where I'm at,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: minorities like myself are going to be the majority.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's those values,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: those traditions are going to cause some demands for change,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: not just in the food system,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: but education,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: science,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: nutrition.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think those are on the horizon.
• 33:27
  And all of those things,
• 33:28
  those phenomenon are definitely connected to food.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think when we saw this power structure being challenged,
• 33:38
  this power structure of white supremacy in the United States
• 33:41
  was being challenged
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: in this last election.
• 33:44
  And it just was an overwhelming blowback to not mess with the
• 33:48
  power system.
• 33:50
  And it just,
• 33:50
  you know,
• 33:51
  it didn't destabilize us yet,
• 33:52
  but there's more on the horizon.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so value systems that come with a construct or a paradigm,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think those are the biggest threats to our food system.
• 34:03
  I hope that we continue to improve and build our relationships
• 34:07
  with landscape and food.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: as a White Mountain Apache person and a Navajo person,
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: we've kind of seen,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: I say it all the time,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's like we saw the world end once.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm on the other side of this apocalyptic existence.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what reality looks like after our world changed forever.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think more hopefully more, um,
• 34:31
  micro-regional voices that have this relationship with food
• 34:35
  will be amplified.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: But the voices that I'm referring to,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: not just mine,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: but all of us here,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: we've got a lot that we fight against.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're up against a power structure that's invisible.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that in the next 25 years,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: By 2050, there'll be more cool street foods, less fine dining.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully,
• 35:01
  the techniques and the food and the excitement around fine
• 35:05
  dining can be translated
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: to the streets,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: to food carts.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like chefs, they...
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm one of them.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 35:18
  But I hope that more people can really listen to what food and
• 35:23
  history has to teach
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: us because they're powerful to me.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot to think.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think of like thinking about in increments of 25 years,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: is a way to look at it.
• 35:35
  That's why I said in the beginning,
• 35:36
  it's either doomsday or it's going to be all right.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows, man?
• 35:42
  But in that line of what I was saying at the beginning about
• 35:44
  letting things rot and
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: letting things decompose,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: it's not just the food,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: it's ideas,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: it's ideals.
• 35:50
  I've been advocating for a very long time to let things rot,
• 35:53
  especially ideas and ideals.
• 35:57
  and because you can't recompose without decomposing right it's
• 36:01
  really important for
• 36:02
  things to rot and we see these processes of decomposition and
• 36:07
  for me what's
• 36:09
  happening today in the food industry is total decomposition for
• 36:13
  example i i come
• 36:16
  from chile on one side and from a tiny village in calabria in
• 36:21
  italy on the other
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: side that
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: The food, anybody who can go there can tell you it's perfect.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: Everything to perfection.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: Very little ingredients.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: You can do a lot with those ingredients,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: but everything grown with love,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: dedication and time to perfection.
• 36:42
  What's happening today when I go to the US and I realize
• 36:46
  there's nobody who eats at home.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: Very few people eat at home.
• 36:50
  Everybody's walking with their food in the street or with
• 36:52
  something to drink.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: And everybody's eating out in restaurants.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody pays any attention to the quality of the ingredient,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: to the quality,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: to giving the time for an ingredient or a dish to be able to mature,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: to compose.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just this complete decomposition of healthy,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: tasty, righteous, local foods.
• 37:21
  That's what we're living today in a lot of countries is,
• 37:24
  I mean,
• 37:25
  it's rotted.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that,
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: that part of the reputation of,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: for example,
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: in our case,
• 37:33
  Italian food or some French foods is the absolute dedication to
• 37:40
  one type of food
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: for many years with love
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: calm and creativity,
• 37:49
  and not this over flooding of access of things to replace what
• 37:53
  was already good
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: that comes from a trillion miles away.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: Andy,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: if you agree with me,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: but I think that what looks towards,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: for me,
• 38:03
  what looks like recomposition and getting out of a process of
• 38:08
  societal rot is going
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: back to eat at home.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: What a grandma did.
• 38:12
  The rich people are going to be the people who know what to do
• 38:15
  with a seed.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's going to be the richness in 100 years.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: And to not only know what to do with one seed,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: but know how to get more seeds from one seed,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: and select and go back to having the perfect tomato or the incredible,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: cheese and just embracing time in a way,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: this chronological time.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: The Greeks measured time in two ways, in chronos and kairos.
• 38:43
  Chronos,
• 38:44
  the chronological time that we live in today,
• 38:46
  is completely messed up.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's like minute, hour, day, week.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then kairos, which is the natural time of a process.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm in Chile and I want to make wine in August...
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm screwed because the grapes mature in March.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: I can't make wine in August.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: Nevertheless,
• 39:05
  we have been seeing more and more defiance to that natural time
• 39:11
  of nature and a
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: process in the food industry.
• 39:14
  We can get a mature avocado almost anywhere in the Western
• 39:20
  world at any day of the year.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: What is that?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's pure nonsense.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's pure nonsense to me.
• 39:29
  but i'm not provoking but in order to push that need that anger
• 39:39
  for a better
• 39:39
  knowledge to get a better balance between chronos and kairos
• 39:48
  shouldn't we get rid
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: of all those restaurants there are too many i mean
• 39:58
  in in europe in the states everywhere there's restaurants
• 40:03
  top-notch medium
• 40:06
  industrial food take away eat out bring back home whatever do
• 40:12
  we need that amount
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: of places
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do we need to consume,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: like fast consuming,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: not having the time when you go back from work,
• 40:24
  if you're lucky because you have to work and ingesting your
• 40:28
  food at home without
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: even thinking?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if we got rid of the aura of cuisine,
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: of the aura of the dictatorship of the big chef,
• 40:45
  including also the good willing chefs that promote themselves
• 40:52
  embracing sustainability,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: better agriculture,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: regenerating,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: that's greenwashing.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know what what i mean maybe the first step is to get rid of a lot of
• 41:09
  restaurants we don't need them and also where does come from
• 41:14
  these crazy ideas idea
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: that you go to restaurants every day
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: we are spoiled,
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: fucking rich people who think that they can afford to go out,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: to sit down,
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: order,
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: tip people,
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: treating them like escort girls and escort boys.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: The nicer they are, the richer they get when I tip them.
• 41:42
  I mean,
• 41:44
  most of the food scene,
• 41:48
  for me,
• 41:49
  seems to get more and more related to
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: to the class system.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I'm... Absolutely, absolutely agree.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally agree.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: You're talking about,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: someone mentioned AI earlier,
• 42:09
  and I wanted to start thinking about technology and what effect
• 42:15
  that's going to
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: have on what we eat.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: like there were 3d printers now that can just print out a meal.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 42:26
  is everyone's house going to have just like a big cooler or
• 42:30
  pantry that's connected
• 42:31
  to like a little robot and you just press a button and it cooks
• 42:35
  you everything just,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: as perfect as,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Ferran,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Audrey ever could.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you just press a button and it's just, that's it.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't have to think about it.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: You don't cook.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: You just scroll through a menu and the,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: And do it.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: Is that going to be the future?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do we have an expert around?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I can give you actually a personal experience.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: So a friend of mine that's a chef of a very fine restaurant,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: and I was like,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: what do you cook at home?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: And he's like, I just use the Instant Pot.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: You just use the Instant Pot.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't got time to cook.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like I cook at work.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: I just put everything in the Instant Pot.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: Press a few buttons.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: put the timer on,
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: and when I'm back,
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: I can feed my whole family with a delicious meal,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: but it's all made in one pot.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: so what I want to say is that,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's a dissonance to go to what Andy was saying.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's like this culture, right, of what is this about?
• 43:39
  Everybody eating out the whole time and everything elaborate
• 43:41
  and all that.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: And the reality,
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: even from some of the people that are in that space,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: of,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: just making something tasty,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: yummy,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: quickly,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: soon.
• 43:52
  And I think that the 3D printing thing is sort of stepping back
• 43:58
  and going towards
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: maybe what fine dining alchemy was at the beginning,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: when it maybe in some cases,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: as far as I've read,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: was more than a trend than about the taste.
• 44:11
  I mean,
• 44:11
  I'd be very disappointed if humanity goes back to that sort of
• 44:16
  system of
• 44:19
  of thinking that something like the modification and the huge
• 44:25
  forced alchemy might
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: be something tastier.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: It makes you wonder,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: though,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: because it seems the trend,
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: at least for the last 100 years,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: has just been to make it as simple as possible.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: So to think as little as possible, that even though
• 44:49
  know we're talking about a different food system where you know
• 44:53
  it's local and
• 44:54
  regional and all of that what what does the other side think
• 45:01
  like they just want
• 45:02
  easy they don't want to think and i think there's always going
• 45:06
  to be that segment
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: of the global population that doesn't want to cook
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: For sure, for sure.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: But since I'm now trying to be a little bit optimistic,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going into artificial intelligence.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: But see,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: if we,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: with the help of the politicians,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: of the institutions,
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: like when the young kids go to school,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: they kind of get some sexuality lessons,
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: also,
• 45:44
  culinary lesson lessons how to do little things practical stuff
• 45:49
  sounds practical
• 45:51
  science like the the the the the thing that the girls said to
• 45:55
  go the classes uh
• 45:56
  last century to build a house like you know basic things you
• 46:00
  know repair plumbing
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: like yeah okay let's think let's think everybody loves chickpeas right
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can buy chickpeas in a tan or you can buy it at the grocery store.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: You need to let it into water for at least 12 hours.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: What most of the people do,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: the following morning,
• 46:25
  they throw the water out and they keep the chickpeas and then
• 46:30
  they cook it where
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: they want it.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Some chefs know,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: the French for sure knew,
• 46:38
  that if you reduce slowly the water where the chickpeas have
• 46:43
  been sleeping overnight,
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: and if you reduce it,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: the more you reduce it,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: the more it becomes a taste of shrimps,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: of fish.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also something that you could use
• 47:00
  cook a pasta to cook a risotto to add to something but also
• 47:04
  it's a simple gesture
• 47:08
  into this not wasting stuff there are plenty plenty of things
• 47:16
  when you cook rice
• 47:19
  you cook it for an immediate consumption but if you keep it in
• 47:23
  the fridge for a
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: couple of days
• 47:27
  not only it loses you correct me if i'm wrong julie some of the
• 47:34
  sugars but becomes
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: even more digestible and you could use it for many days
• 47:43
  i'm not talking let's all become wizards and make science
• 47:48
  fiction uh cuisine not at
• 47:51
  all i've always been bad at sciences in mathematics but simple
• 47:57
  gestures that can be
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: taught used showed and you could pick up easily easily i mean
• 48:07
  25 years ago some british friends would cook pasta in a small
• 48:13
  pot with spaghetti
• 48:15
  spaghetti sticking out of the water like this now almost no one
• 48:20
  does it anymore it
• 48:21
  took some a little traveling a little examples so if we start
• 48:28
  with the little
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: things maybe i'm not that pessimistic anymore but we need to
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: To give the example,
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: we need some help,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: not just from Julie,
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Juliana,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: Nicholas,
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: but also from local schools,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: the people in the government.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: We need a medium-long-term view.
• 48:58
  What if there was just everyone in the entire world was taught
• 49:02
  how to make beans?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, both grow beans, eat beans.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's the most sustainable protein on the planet.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: If we just,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: shifted so much of our diet away from,
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: animal proteins to beans,
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: it would...
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's life skills.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just like that simple thing.
• 49:22
  Just the whole class,
• 49:23
  everyone in the fifth grade learns to make fucking beans well.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: and even to grow beans in a little cup in their windowsill.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: But we used to.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I'm a bit older than you, but I remember.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's a bean class in Chile for the fifth grade?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: No, this is in England.
• 49:42
  I was born and brought up in London,
• 49:44
  and we would have to sprout beans and...
• 49:48
  go through go through the system and it was part of you know
• 49:51
  primary school was um
• 49:54
  was doing that and you know just just with a little bit of
• 49:57
  cotton wool and water
• 49:58
  you'd sprout the bean and then go to you know to the soil or
• 50:01
  whatever but you know
• 50:03
  everything that we're talking about is basically just depicting
• 50:06
  a broadening
• 50:09
  distance between our just just our grandparents generation
• 50:16
  because our grandparents
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: unless they were European royalty,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: probably just eating at home and actually cooking every day,
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: twice a day.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, all life revolves around cooking.
• 50:32
  Everything,
• 50:32
  all day,
• 50:33
  you know,
• 50:33
  you wake up and it's about the bread and the pasta.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: In Italy, at least, it's just there's nothing.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: The first question is, what did you eat today?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what are you going to eat tomorrow is the second question.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, or later.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: But what we're seeing today and even, you know, in countries that,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: that aren't too wealthy.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: Everything revolves around the cooking,
• 50:54
  but we have been impregnated with the false notion that success
• 50:59
  and being wealthy
• 51:01
  is eating outside of your home and eating things that come from
• 51:04
  as far away as possible.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it's in such a short window to the extent of
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_03: young generations today despising local ingredients,
• 51:18
  despising the staple foods that have held their people for
• 51:22
  centuries or millennia.
• 51:23
  So,
• 51:24
  I mean,
• 51:24
  it's completely like to the extent of being messed up and fueled.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think what you were saying,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: Juliana,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: about what the consumer wants,
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's also a false notion of what the consumer wants.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because all of this is a construction,
• 51:43
  it's a mediated construction of how information gets from one
• 51:46
  person to the other.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so going back to the small,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: I know we always get back to this and it might seem like,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: an Everest insurmountable problem.
• 51:55
  But if it was only literally 50 years ago that we were learning
• 52:02
  how to eat,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: cook and refine the ingredients in our localities,
• 52:10
  I don't think we should feel that it's Mount Everest to get
• 52:13
  closer back to that.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because when you lose food, you lose culture.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: And people aren't making the link between culture and food.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a bond that cannot be broken.
• 52:25
  And I think there's a responsibility from everyone in the
• 52:28
  industry or anybody who
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: has that notion to keep that bond as tight as possible.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think like your question about AI and food,
• 52:40
  I think it would be useful or helpful to see how it's or
• 52:45
  interesting to see how AI
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: is going to influence big data.
• 52:50
  There's something out there called big data because we all put
• 52:53
  out a signal,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: a sine wave with where we go on the internet,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: where we travel.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: We've all got our algorithms and big data, they can use it to predict
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: societal problems, outbreaks.
• 53:08
  There's big data scientists in the public health sector that
• 53:11
  can even use big data
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: to almost even pinpoint and predict suicidality.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 53:17
  so I think like AI could be useful in those realms where we
• 53:21
  need specific,
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: construction of nourishing food and say healthcare,
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: maybe,
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: but it can also be weaponized.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's, um, it's going to be interesting to see.
• 53:33
  I think it would be cool as a novelty to be able to go to my
• 53:37
  refrigerator and print
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: something up and there's a snack that,
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: that I knew was decent and semi wholesome at least.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: it could start off as a novelty,
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: but I think – or we could be forced to utilize it out of necessity,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: printing food and stuff.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it trips me out.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, holy shit, they're printing steaks?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: Holy shit, they're printing chicken?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's just crazy.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's insanity.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: But so I don't know.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where that fits into it.
• 54:08
  And hopefully we can use it to calculate and create better
• 54:12
  systems to manage our food system.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: The field's wide open, I think.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:19
  So the global population is expected to peak at 10.4 billion
• 54:25
  people in 2086.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that's within the next 100 years, less than that.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's what, 60 years.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know, right now it's at 8.2 billion people.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: So another 2 billion people are coming.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: most of that future growth is supposed to be in Africa,
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: plus like some of it in Asia.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then the rest of the world, there's basically nothing.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically staying the same or decreasing.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, declining.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, while that is a lot of additional food,
• 54:59
  that's needed i and maybe i'm an idiot but i don't think it's
• 55:03
  an unreasonable
• 55:04
  amount you know having another 20 more people on the planet i
• 55:09
  think it's something
• 55:10
  the planet can handle if we just produce food in better ways
• 55:13
  and we don't waste so
• 55:14
  much of it i don't know it's i i think it's i think it's doable
• 55:22
  like it doesn't
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: like when i see that it doesn't seem so scary
• 55:29
  I think it's doable in certain regions of the world where
• 55:32
  people are open to these
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: ideas of health and collaboration,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: intelligent coexistence,
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 55:39
  And also the landscapes or geography and climate will impact
• 55:43
  this population growth too.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: Tsunamis, maybe someday.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Earth breaks, all kinds of natural disasters.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's going to be mass migration.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: to all over.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_03: But I think one thing is the availability and the possibility,
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: and another thing is the fragility.
• 56:02
  And what I find deeply concerning is the fragility of what's
• 56:07
  being considered for the future.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, if we think about AI, can you imagine how fragile?
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, I literally, like, I've got goosebumps.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: I feel sick at the fragility of depending or somebody having the power
• 56:26
  give you power or not to eat right so these these systems so
• 56:29
  going back more and
• 56:31
  more food vulnerability less and less food security two billion
• 56:35
  more people sure
• 56:37
  but does that mean you know your scenario nick of like just
• 56:40
  these 12 ingredients
• 56:41
  we're all eating this powdery whatever that that dependence is
• 56:46
  only fueling an
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: imbalance of power that is is unsustainable so so just
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I find it quite hopeful in a way.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Andy, if these fine dining
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: examples do lead the way,
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: there might be a little chance,
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: in terms of,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: all right,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to eat this thing that wasn't edible before,
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: but that's actually available all along the coastline,
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_03: or we're going to eat,
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: this salad made out of this cosmopolitan weed,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: right,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: like that grows all over the world,
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: and
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you will depend on rain, which already is fragile.
• 57:30
  Can you imagine if we add on to that like a transport system or
• 57:34
  a processing system
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: or the need for electricity?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: When we talk about AI, we're talking about electricity.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_03: We've got good old fire,
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_03: and we've got what we have near,
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: and it's more than enough to feed.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so all this false dependence on technology to feed us in 100 years as
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: population grows is also super detrimental.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the nature-based solutions are in the past, mostly, right?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's where, in many ways, medicine moves that way.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: in the compounds that we use,
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: we're going back to what ancestors used in materials,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_03: for example,
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: leather,
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: swathes.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't Stella McCartney who invented the mushroom leather.
• 58:19
  It was in the Eastern Europeans,
• 58:21
  you know,
• 58:22
  hundreds and thousands of years ago.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe it's worth,
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 58:27
  thinking about food in this period and the industry and growth
• 58:30
  of just taking us,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: like actually looking back
• 58:35
  Because one thing might be mass production and what we think
• 58:39
  might be easier,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: but if you think about it,
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: a second thought is just massive,
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: depending on a very fragile system.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with you, Julie, and I raise my hand.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: From the past, people are moving back also from medicine to the past.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: But again,
• 59:05
  we cannot do it alone yes i can go and see my natural oriented
• 59:13
  doctor but just
• 59:14
  think i live in france which is oh la la big france we have one
• 59:20
  of the best social
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: security systems
• 59:23
  we can't deny it but then a few years ago three four years ago
• 59:30
  the government has
• 59:32
  been helping big pharma big companies and three years ago they
• 59:43
  totally stopped
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: refunding
• 59:47
  people who buy homeopathic medicine i'm talking about little
• 59:52
  tubes that cost two
• 59:54
  dollars you say hey that's not a big deal uh i can afford a
• 1:00:01
  tube two dollars cube
• 1:00:03
  but then you need three four five six different stuff and at
• 1:00:07
  the end of the month i
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: can afford it but most of the people maybe
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: Don't all the same.
• 1:00:13
  If I can have something which can be refunded,
• 1:00:16
  maybe I'll go the other way.
• 1:00:17
  But what's more important is that it's not only that the
• 1:00:22
  government has made the
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: political decision to stop refunding homeopathy.
• 1:00:28
  is that why because they don't think that homeopathy is a good
• 1:00:34
  way for healing
• 1:00:37
  people because it doesn't heal you when you got this it's more
• 1:00:41
  for prevention etc
• 1:00:43
  so it's a cultural step back and it's coming from the
• 1:00:48
  government that's why i
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: always keep repeating myself we need some level of pressure to change
• 1:00:59
  to help the power to shift from the hands of the few who have
• 1:01:06
  the power and
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: incorporate more people.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: We can buy our homeopathic medicine or use herbs and stuff,
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: but it's the paradigm which is important.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: They do not believe
• 1:01:26
  They don't want us to believe anymore towards our moms,
• 1:01:30
  grandmothers or ourselves.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: We know it's all can be good for most of us.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's political.
• 1:01:44
  Julie,
• 1:01:44
  you were talking about like the fine dining trickle down effect
• 1:01:50
  and
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've always thought of restaurants when they're the best,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: that they're kind of hubs of information.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:01:58
  there are these places where they can actually teach you about
• 1:02:02
  the local food systems,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: about ancestral cooking and ingredients.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: but as Andy was saying,
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think when they're in this ivory tower,
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: that's just for rich people,
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: like nothing happens with it.
• 1:02:14
  It's like,
• 1:02:15
  I think they,
• 1:02:16
  they do,
• 1:02:17
  there should be a restaurant in every town,
• 1:02:19
  every region.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's really looking at these things like places like Nephi's place,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_02: like exactly like what you're doing,
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: man.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think there should be a cafe in every town in America,
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_02: these kinds of places that are,
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just hubs of information.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: They're just access points.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish, you know, they would have government support.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_02: The government should support that shit.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why not?
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like the government should support independent publishers,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: like the government should support freedom of speech,
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: like the government should support minorities in all sorts of ways.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that is not happening.
• 1:03:14
  in europe i don't think it's happening no i get it yeah there
• 1:03:18
  are some examples
• 1:03:20
  right and maybe nick you can please please shut me down if i'm
• 1:03:23
  wrong because i i'm
• 1:03:24
  speaking just from the outside but at one point in time i mean
• 1:03:29
  it happened let's
• 1:03:30
  look at peru peru's a really interesting example um of a
• 1:03:36
  country that had um you
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: know administrative support government support to
• 1:03:44
  to work with what grows there and what lives there and who
• 1:03:51
  lives there,
• 1:03:52
  right?
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: And to produce,
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_03: like a,
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_03: it went many steps further in the,
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_03: identity and everything you want,
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: but it was about being a,
• 1:04:03
  like all these restaurants and the initiatives are hubs of
• 1:04:06
  information of also
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_03: changing the way people were thinking about maybe like a sardine,
• 1:04:11
  an anchovy or a jack mackerel that we're thinking is just like
• 1:04:14
  a reduction fishery,
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's fish meal, fish oil.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_03: And today, you know, it's not just, you know, salmon feed.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_03: And you might go to a restaurant in, in,
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_03: They put in value in Peru the local produce and local crops.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's an interesting example that happened there.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, Nick, your view.
• 1:04:37
  Yeah,
• 1:04:37
  I mean,
• 1:04:38
  I think it's something that's happened all over Latin America
• 1:04:42
  at this point.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it's happening in developing countries.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: But not with government support, though.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, not with government support.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think the government support was really secondary in this.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_02: they did help,
• 1:04:56
  but I think ultimately what that government support did was
• 1:05:00
  help commercialize,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: industrialize certain food products.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it necessarily helped.
• 1:05:08
  people in the Andes or Amazon have better lives or get more
• 1:05:12
  value from their products.
• 1:05:14
  It caused producers of quinoa to start losing ancestral methods
• 1:05:19
  of producing quinoa
• 1:05:20
  to just try and keep up with the quinoa on the coast that's
• 1:05:23
  sprayed with pesticides
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_02: and things like that.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if the government support totally helped.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think ultimately...
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: The people have the power to change this.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: we have the power to support restaurants like Nephi's or,
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_02: small publishers or all of these things.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_02: it would be nice if the government's like some sane,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: intelligent government officials would,
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_02: recognize the value in these things and this like discourse,
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_02: these kind of centers of information for,
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_02: creating a better world and not just,
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: financial incentives.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:06:02
  But the governments are already getting their hands dirty to
• 1:06:08
  support staff,
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: but for the wrong reasons,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: for the wrong aspects.
• 1:06:14
  Think about all those countries around the world who support
• 1:06:21
  restaurant guides just
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: in order to provoke more curiosity and increase the tourism.
• 1:06:29
  Most of the guys that you can buy all over the world or the
• 1:06:32
  list of the rankings
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: are government-sponsored,
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: subventioned.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they say because food is important,
• 1:06:43
  but for them food is all important because it's the restaurant
• 1:06:47
  scene and it can
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: help to get more tourists.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's a shift of paradigms.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: If we manage,
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: to make shift that eagerness of consumerism,
• 1:07:06
  that all that money that the governments ship out to get more
• 1:07:13
  Ireland's lending and
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_01: more people coming and consuming and spending three,
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: four days or one week in different locations,
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: maybe that could help change a lot.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: not spend for consumerism,
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: but you help the locals to get things better produced,
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: better grown,
• 1:07:35
  to spread out awareness of how important the ecosystem is and
• 1:07:40
  everything we are
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: talking about.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it's the government.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: We need those factors.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think for for us in our project,
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: see,
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_00: like I mentioned in the beginning,
• 1:07:55
  I work in my tribal White Mountain Apache Treatment Center for
• 1:08:00
  drug addiction and
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: alcohol abuse.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: And to us,
• 1:08:04
  we look at the root cause of that as as intergenerational
• 1:08:08
  trauma and grief,
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: complex traumas,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: health disparities,
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: living in a food desert,
• 1:08:15
  even though we're in the most calorie rich environment in
• 1:08:17
  northeastern Arizona.
• 1:08:20
  we had to really just recognize for ourselves and create this project,
• 1:08:27
  which is Café Gojo.
• 1:08:29
  And it's kind of the,
• 1:08:31
  it's against,
• 1:08:32
  it's almost kind of going against everything that
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: The ivory tower chefs stand for selling luxury,
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: selling experience,
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: curating an experience,
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: getting high over dinner,
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_00: over drinks,
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: getting high on dopamine,
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_00: norepinephrine,
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_00: serotonin through our intestinal tract.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_00: Through this pleasure of eating and fine dining.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: We exist right in one of the poorest communities in all of Arizona.
• 1:09:01
  I think the White Mountain Apache tribe is like the second
• 1:09:04
  poorest in the United
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: States next to Pine Ridge.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the health disparities abound for us and they're right in our face.
• 1:09:14
  So we just to see because the treatment center is one of our
• 1:09:18
  health components.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:09:21
  But if we were to kind of try to spell it out,
• 1:09:23
  say,
• 1:09:23
  hey,
• 1:09:23
  this is what we're going to do.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: These are the health modalities.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is the approach.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: It might not have happened.
• 1:09:29
  Through the by by focusing on the vocational side and the
• 1:09:34
  professional development
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: and promoting Native American foods and Native American cooking,
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: we launched the project not only just for addiction and alcoholism,
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: because those are,
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_00: stigmatized.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_00: nobody in this food industry,
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: the restaurant world and hospitality in general,
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_00: and many other fields want to talk about this.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's pushed to the side.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not an issue until it's an issue.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's even puts people in deep states of denial.
• 1:10:03
  So it's a very uncomfortable topic to utilize food to remedy
• 1:10:08
  and treat the human
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: condition of hurt and grief.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: But through the foods,
• 1:10:14
  We feel like what we've done in Apache land at the cafe is draw
• 1:10:18
  out the best
• 1:10:19
  behavioral health dynamics that happen transformationally for
• 1:10:23
  individuals in a team.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_00: These are our guiding principles for the nutritional recovery program.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're place based.
• 1:10:33
  We have a local farm that we work with and we did our best in
• 1:10:37
  the past two years.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: See,
• 1:10:41
  It sounds like a really utopian fix for a really deep,
• 1:10:45
  deep intergenerational wound.
• 1:10:48
  And our project Cafe Gojo is going to be there for as long as
• 1:10:52
  we can keep it.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_00: as long as it's going to,
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: the life of Cafe Gojo will,
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: hopefully it's 10 years,
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: hopefully it's to a hundred years.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: But the philosophy and the idea,
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_00: the reconnection to landscape and identity,
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like is more important than the intricate foods and fancy cooking.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_00: We utilize the techniques,
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: but if you came to our environment,
• 1:11:16
  you're just going to drive up and you'll pass us because you
• 1:11:18
  think you passed the
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: gas station.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we turned this old gas station into the cafe.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 1:11:25
  The way we look at it is like we're not doing fine dining food
• 1:11:28
  every day.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: We keep our prices as low as possible because of our demographic.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's extremely impoverished, but we do mostly native foods.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a small network of local Apache suppliers,
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: arts and crafts,
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: farmers,
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_00: foragers,
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_00: a few hunters.
• 1:11:47
  But the priority is not to really amplify and put it out to
• 1:11:52
  attract others because
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: we're not like that.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like our approach to food and cooking is to...
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_00: help the human heal, the person heal from this legacy.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're not like, we have a really beautiful kitchen.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you go to our Instagram pages,
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: that Instagram page or mine,
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: do some really beautiful kitchen work.
• 1:12:17
  It looks like a very chef-y awesome thing,
• 1:12:20
  because it is,
• 1:12:21
  because that's how I grew up.
• 1:12:22
  But it's actually a clinical environment that draws out all
• 1:12:26
  these components.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so over the past two years since we've been open,
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: We've got all these variables, right?
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_00: People,
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: culture,
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: land,
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Apache language,
• 1:12:36
  this network of food producers and people in our environment
• 1:12:40
  that look just like me
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_00: or Apaches and Navajos and natives.
• 1:12:45
  The next obstacle that we faced was the psychological spiritual
• 1:12:49
  side where it's like,
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_00: even though we have all these components,
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: we're doing this great food at a really low cost.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we're highlighting indigenous foodways.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_00: The next side of it is to me, it's a microcosm for society.
• 1:13:02
  If we can create these type of programs that focus on health
• 1:13:05
  modalities and
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: approaches to foods,
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: the next component is going to be the psychological like,
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: that's not my tradition.
• 1:13:12
  Food traditions are very,
• 1:13:13
  very intimate and try to get someone to change their food choices.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's difficult.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the support can be there,
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_00: but I think it's a mixture of voices and how those voices get amplified.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: If someone,
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_00: some high tower white chef in Europe,
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: America,
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Spain,
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: or someone's highlighted us and said,
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: this is cool.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're doing great work.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_00: We knew it all along.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it would be validated by an outsider's perspective.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:13:42
  So the challenge we face is definitely it's telling us we're in
• 1:13:47
  for the long haul.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_00: The fine dining is not important.
• 1:13:51
  The behavioral health is important and the food is important
• 1:13:54
  and expanding food vocabulary.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that that is what we see more of in the future.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really do.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, cooking at home.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love that idea of decomposition.
• 1:14:05
  We use the same metaphor in our gardening projects where we let
• 1:14:11
  our traumas compost
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: into new life.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So cool stuff like that.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm listening to you, I'm thinking of a home.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking of a grandma.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking like of a bosom, right?
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Or el hogar, we say in Spanish, like the fire at the center.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Everything that you described unlocks, in my mind, homes.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_03: A home place where when you're really in the shit in life,
• 1:14:34
  you just go and have a meal that holds you with the person
• 1:14:39
  that's cooked it with
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_03: the biggest love in the world.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_03: It has the transformative power.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_03: I just wanted to say that as I was listening to you,
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_03: I could just think of my grandmother and home and,
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_03: it was very beautiful.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of ironic too because,
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:14:59
  even having all these variables and having access to foraging
• 1:15:02
  and land and all this stuff,
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_00: even that's a luxury because the people that are –
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_00: benefiting from luxury and opulence and all this and a lot of money,
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: they say,
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't live in the forest.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't live on the reservation.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a farmer.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't blah, blah, blah.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: You were so lucky.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like there's almost like no balance on the scale.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's just bickering back and forth.
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny to me, but it is what it is.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to keep moving.
• 1:15:28
  I wanted to ask you about that because what is the solution in
• 1:15:33
  the long term to food deserts?
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because we are talking about the quality of food,
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_03: but there is also the access to it and there is still hunger.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's an everlasting problem in the history of humanity.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I wonder if that's going to change.
• 1:15:49
  And obviously it's related to connect with the environment and
• 1:15:53
  all the things we
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_03: could eat that we are not to
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know, make sure that gets better.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_03: But there's still a huge problem.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_03: And the focus cannot be only about the quality of food for,
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: the people that has access to what their grandmothers or,
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_03: discomfort food and actually a home.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_03: But
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_03: hunger, like pure hunger.
• 1:16:15
  So I wonder what is your experience about that and everyone's
• 1:16:20
  and how this could
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_03: look different in 100 years because it hasn't.
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_03: It might change and fluctuate depending on,
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_03: processed food solutions,
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_03: temporary solutions,
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_03: but it's always there.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like for at least where I'm at, we grow up in hunger, right?
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_00: We grow up relying on government food programs,
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_00: which produces the diabetes epidemic for us and other,
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_00: it's a root cause of violence for us.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So hunger is nothing new to us.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think the thing attached to food is fear that I'm not like that.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not this, that's not us, that's not who we are.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the food education piece is really important.
• 1:17:06
  And it's really about just that really kind of zeroing in on
• 1:17:10
  that spirit of
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_00: generosity that's attached to food.
• 1:17:14
  I tell people in our classes and stuff all the time,
• 1:17:16
  season your food with laughter and smiles.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 1:17:20
  Welcome people in and try to really tap into that spirit of
• 1:17:24
  generosity that all of
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_00: us feel all the time in the work that we do.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it's definitely going to be a continual struggle.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think because we're close to food,
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_00: we're close to the problem,
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_00: but we're also close to the solutions.
• 1:17:39
  So I think it's going to be place-based in how we approach
• 1:17:41
  those things,
• 1:17:42
  definitely.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_00: For us, it's a long haul.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_03: and just to your point about hunger and that,
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_03: so I was mentioning I come from a very,
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_03: very tiny village in southern Italy,
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_03: in Calabria.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_03: My grandparents
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't even speak Italian, let alone know how to read or write.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_03: And they were farmers, contadini.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember,
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_03: my father grew up in hunger,
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_03: food scarcity,
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_03: high food scarcity.
• 1:18:14
  And I remember as,
• 1:18:15
  you know,
• 1:18:15
  just a little girl,
• 1:18:16
  this system of trade or trueque in Spanish.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_03: I remember my grandfather would get up
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_03: four in the morning,
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_03: walk two hours to trade,
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_03: some olive oil he'd made for like a piece of meat,
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_03: for his grandchild and then walk all the way back.
• 1:18:36
  And the system in which,
• 1:18:39
  again,
• 1:18:40
  community,
• 1:18:41
  this is a system of trade that isn't based on...
• 1:18:49
  on money but what one produces and what the other produces can
• 1:18:53
  can can make a lot
• 1:18:55
  of a difference and a difference in more than hunger and
• 1:18:59
  nutrition right so when we
• 1:19:01
  look at because because you you can to the point of what nephew
• 1:19:06
  was saying right
• 1:19:07
  that maybe when these government product projects came in there
• 1:19:11
  wasn't hunger but
• 1:19:12
  there's a serious nutrition problem where you've got a diabetes
• 1:19:15
  you know diabetes
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know, epidemic.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_03: And because nutrition is different than just,
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_03: anyway,
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_03: I just want to put that out there,
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_03: these systems of where there might be scarcity of others,
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_03: there are other ways that nutrition kicks in.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_03: But in these large areas of land where soil is depleted,
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_03: where droughts are hitting,
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_03: crops don't grow,
• 1:19:44
  monoculture monocultures of crops where there's you know seeds
• 1:19:49
  that are not adapted
• 1:19:51
  to the place where they're being planted those are all again
• 1:19:55
  just very big in my
• 1:19:56
  view capitalist driven problems of and and areas that are being
• 1:20:02
  sacrificed um
• 1:20:03
  either with experiments chemical experiments you know market
• 1:20:07
  experiments and and
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_03: generally just um
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, every other word would be very harsh.
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_03: But so there's two ways, I think.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_03: One that is the hunger in a nutritional way.
• 1:20:21
  And then the other one is just this sacrificial view of a lot
• 1:20:25
  of food systems to areas.
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_02: This is so complex.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think we're going to figure out the future in this call.
• 1:20:45
  SPEAKER_03: Something fun about how this can look in 100 years.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_03: Just pure fun.
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_02: What are going to be the restaurant trends in 100 years?
• 1:20:58
  Remember guys when in 1973 the musician Brian Eno wrote it like
• 1:21:01
  a pamphlet missing
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_03: music for non-musicians maybe the next thing would be
• 1:21:23
  a known restaurant something which is much more much less more
• 1:21:30
  more open not like a
• 1:21:33
  closed system like a closed program like in computers when you
• 1:21:42
  do something close
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_01: you cannot access you cannot share you cannot
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_01: forward.
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_01: We need more open systems.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And personally,
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see the restaurant as they are now as open systems for many,
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_01: many,
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_01: many,
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_01: many reasons.
• 1:22:02
  And when I hear what Nefa is doing in Arizona,
• 1:22:09
  seeing the anger,
• 1:22:12
  sharing knowledge,
• 1:22:17
  going forward despite the lack of help and not even believing
• 1:22:25
  that some help from
• 1:22:28
  SPEAKER_01: outside could improve things.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I find some hope in that.
• 1:22:36
  Definitely more than for what you can see in most of the
• 1:22:40
  restaurants all over
• 1:22:45
  all over the five continents i think that they are so
• 1:22:50
  conservative so unopened to
• 1:22:54
  change uh if i were a a real marxist i would say that they are
• 1:23:02
  the enemies nowadays
• 1:23:04
  but i wouldn't go that far i wouldn't go that far but for sure
• 1:23:08
  i don't trust them
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_01: that much
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's fragile.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's very fragile.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's fragile and,
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:23:20
  I think thinking about fragility in 100 years and what that's
• 1:23:26
  going to look like.
• 1:23:30
  I mean,
• 1:23:31
  it's really sad the day that somebody can't,
• 1:23:37
  how do you say,
• 1:23:40
  can't get pleasure.
• 1:23:43
  SPEAKER_03: from just eating a really tasty boiled potato.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_03: come on,
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_03: or just,
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_03: just biting into a really,
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_03: really lovely matured on the plant tomato or whatever.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I just think,
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_03: there has to be something going back,
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_03: going,
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_03: this going back seems to be a really good way to go forward.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_03: And going back in hunger-stricken lands too.
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_03: I've just finished a fellowship at Durham University in the UK.
• 1:24:20
  There's an incredible soil scientist from Zimbabwe who gave us
• 1:24:27
  a huge talk about
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_03: the disaster,
• 1:24:32
  SPEAKER_03: the hunger disaster with
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_03: people planting maize, first of all, maize in Zimbabwe.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_03: We're just going to put that there,
• 1:24:40
  SPEAKER_03: like from the Americas to Zimbabwe,
• 1:24:43
  using seeds that they have to buy year to year with practices
• 1:24:49
  and with the land
• 1:24:52
  SPEAKER_03: that are new.
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_03: And he conducted an experiment with the elders of his community
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_03: who would go to the nearest forest,
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_03: collect the leaves,
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_03: year to year,
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_03: this labour intensive feeding of the soil.
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_03: And the maize would grow like two to threefold quicker, bigger,
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know, and was resisting drought.
• 1:25:19
  So what I want to say is that even in those areas where some
• 1:25:24
  people lose 100% of
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_03: their crops year to year because it hasn't rained,
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_03: they lose that 100% with these new practices,
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_03: and there's extreme hunger there.
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_03: But going back and looking back at what, you know, their ancestry,
• 1:25:41
  the technologies and the biotechnology that their ancestors
• 1:25:45
  developed that was lost
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_03: in one generation when they got back to that,
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_03: they don't lose 100% of the crop.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_03: They might lose 50% of the crop, but not 100.
• 1:25:56
  SPEAKER_03: So this thing about looking back seems to be quite key in every sense,
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_03: looking back into how we were eating,
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_03: what we were eating,
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_03: how we were preparing it,
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_03: the love and care and tenderness with which
• 1:26:10
  ingredients were treated by people who had the time to do that
• 1:26:16
  you know julie i
• 1:26:18
  mean initially in gardona riviera close to a fantastic
• 1:26:22
  restaurant and yesterday we
• 1:26:24
  went to to see a small producer who was and we are in the
• 1:26:30
  middle of winter i was
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_01: selling very close to his farm in the morning all his stuff and i've seen
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_01: cabbage, chimedirapa, red spinach, and a few people came to eat.
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_01: This morning I went to see this guy.
• 1:26:52
  SPEAKER_01: This guy is the son of people who are very esoteric.
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_01: They say mantras to the vegetables, that sort of stuff.
• 1:27:07
  This morning I went to see another small producer,
• 1:27:10
  and he came 23 years ago from Romania.
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_01: He's doing his own project on regenerating the soil.
• 1:27:23
  He's waiting time for...
• 1:27:26
  He said,
• 1:27:26
  ah,
• 1:27:27
  the potatoes,
• 1:27:28
  they are just starting to grow again.
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_01: They are incredible, et cetera.
• 1:27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yesterday night, the restaurant was closed and we ate together.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And just the pleasure of eating that fresh curly cabbage,
• 1:27:49
  SPEAKER_01: slightly pan-fried,
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_01: as simple as that,
• 1:27:52
  SPEAKER_01: with some cheese on the side.
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_01: You could feel
• 1:27:58
  SPEAKER_01: the energy of the product, the energy of all those greens.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it goes also for the salads.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe when we say going backwards,
• 1:28:12
  it also implies trying to convey the notion of the pleasure of
• 1:28:20
  the life of the food.
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_01: How many times when we go to a restaurant we say, what did you eat?
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Dead corpses, right?
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_01: It also comes when you buy not very good products,
• 1:28:39
  SPEAKER_01: mass processed salads,
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_01: cabbage that comes by tons and everyone looks like
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And all of them look the same perfectly, the same shape, et cetera.
• 1:28:54
  So the notion of pleasure,
• 1:28:56
  the notion of life,
• 1:28:58
  of imperfection,
• 1:29:00
  it's a cultural thing.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a rush against time.
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Shell will be able to, again, to change the paradigm or not.
• 1:29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_01: If we do it as much as possible,
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_01: if we get more people on board,
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_01: maybe it can be done,
• 1:29:31
  SPEAKER_01: dealing with the notion of scarcity,
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_01: of future scarcity,
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_01: paying more attention,
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_01: giving more value to what we consider as being possible food.
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I made sense,
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_01: but...
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think...
• 1:29:50
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly,
• 1:29:50
  I'm surprised throughout this whole conversation how kind of in
• 1:29:54
  agreement we all are,
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:29:57
  SPEAKER_02: for the most part.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think the ideas are there.
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's just a matter of, you know, spreading them, I guess.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, and...
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I think we all generally want the same things,
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_02: and I think most people want the same things.
• 1:30:15
  Most people want food that's alive,
• 1:30:17
  that's rotting and whatever,
• 1:30:20
  like rot and roll,
• 1:30:22
  man.
• 1:30:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think in 100 years,
• 1:30:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think shit's going to get really bad very quickly,
• 1:30:32
  but I think it's going to hit a point to where people wake up
• 1:30:36
  and they're maybe forced,
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_02: maybe just –
• 1:30:41
  just awakened,
• 1:30:41
  I don't know,
• 1:30:42
  that they're going to make the right changes.
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Should another pandemic help?
• 1:30:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:30:58
  I think there's going to be enough bad stuff already that maybe
• 1:31:02
  we don't need it to
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_02: waken us up more.
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know.
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_02: I found hope in this conversation and I hope all of you did too.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedules for,
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:31:17
  thinking about all these weird things and just kind of seeing
• 1:31:20
  where it went and
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_02: letting your mind wander.
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_03: I want to highlight three words that each of them said.
• 1:31:29
  SPEAKER_03: One is the notion of life, Andrea.
• 1:31:33
  SPEAKER_03: Juliana, imperfection, which I think is a key point of good quality.
• 1:31:39
  SPEAKER_03: And then nephi, generosity.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think these are three key aspects to spread that word.
• 1:31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that's a perfect way to end.
• 1:31:51
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you all.
• 1:31:53
  SPEAKER_02: This was wonderful.
• 1:31:54
  SPEAKER_03: I hope we can meet together someday, somewhere.
• 1:31:58
  SPEAKER_02: I hope in 100 years our great-grandchildren will talk.
• 1:32:04
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast will be an episode.
• 1:32:06
  SPEAKER_02: All right, everyone.
• 1:32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 1:32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, everybody.
• 1:32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Keep up the great work.
• 1:32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
• 1:32:20
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed our 100th episode extravaganza.
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_02: I feel hopeful after that conversation, and I hope you do, too.
• 1:32:29
  SPEAKER_02: We can fucking do this.
• 1:32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Think big.
• 1:32:32
  Think of what we can accomplish in 100 years if we keep
• 1:32:35
  planting the seeds now.
• 1:32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Don't focus on all the bad shit that doesn't go your way.
• 1:32:40
  SPEAKER_02: The solutions are there.
• 1:32:42
  SPEAKER_02: We just have to dream up ways they can be implemented.
• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_02: This year is a new beginning.
• 1:32:47
  Don't worry about the politics and corporations and algorithms
• 1:32:50
  that are trying to
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_02: take over the conversation.
• 1:32:52
  it's us it's always been us we have the power the people we can
• 1:32:57
  make the changes
• 1:32:57
  that need to happen now is not the time to be sad but the time
• 1:33:01
  to fight don't give
• 1:33:03
  up spread love and everything we know that can happen will and
• 1:33:07
  it's going to taste
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_02: good rot and mold motherfuckers rot and mold