Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Gunfighters (4/4)

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Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Gunfighters (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:22
None. A hamster with a blunt pen knife
0:35
for doing. Quicker, quicker.
0:39
Welcome back to a hamster with a blunt pen knife.
0:42
And well, the reason I'm introducing this episode is
0:45
because Joe ran out of songs. Basically, it's very sad.
0:49
Yeah, sorry, say again. Thank God.
0:53
What I I kind of think it's actually a bit remiss to you've
0:55
set up this wonderful, actually, Could we just blame Psy?
0:59
Psy ruined the last one quite clearly.
1:01
So we've given up, basically. So it's his fault?
1:03
Yeah, we're watching. Episode one, Episode one was
1:07
Fraser's and that was the best of the three.
1:10
Episode two was mine, and things were going down.
1:12
You're you're smart, Yeah. And then episode.
1:14
Three was a car crash. The fact we've got the at all
1:18
for episode 4. Yeah, we've we've just gone back
1:20
to normal service because, you know, yes.
1:23
So yeah, it's been kind of just too late to wing it.
1:27
So yeah, so we are watching the gunfighters thoroughly enjoying
1:31
it. Yeah.
1:33
Had some interesting things to say.
1:34
I've had some notes but. We take notes for these.
1:39
Yeah. Well, yeah.
1:40
Yeah. Well, you know, if you don't
1:43
prepare, then you know what the hell?
1:46
What the hell good am I for you, you know?
1:48
I've done 500 episodes and I just don't.
1:51
Bring something to the table, man, you know.
1:55
You definitely do that. You do?
1:57
Well, thank you very much. I bring notes to the table to be
2:00
honest, but yes so. Rob, we are a violent climax.
2:08
How long have you been sitting anyway?
2:09
Just yeah. Yeah, you.
2:11
Can after I let you down in episode?
2:12
Four. You've been.
2:13
You've been dying for that. One for four episodes, I can
2:16
tell. OK, yes, yes.
2:18
Violent climax. Boy.
2:20
So. But you know, I got to say, I
2:22
think the historical inaccuracy aside, I think this is a solid
2:27
episode 4. Yeah, I, I, I, yeah, it's fun.
2:31
It'd be fun to discuss. But you know, in terms of
2:35
historical accuracy, your mileage may vary.
2:37
I just kind of think it would have been nice to just get the
2:40
Lady Bird book version out of this just, you know, not not an
2:43
in depth history lesson going into the sociology or the
2:46
economics or the politics, you know, It's just who was actually
2:51
there and who died and who didn't die.
2:52
I kind of think it's just bare minimum, but yeah, we'll get
2:56
you. Wonder you know how Donald
2:57
Cotton did his prep for this. If I would have just wrote down
3:01
a few names and went, yeah, they're the ones I remember from
3:03
school. I'll just.
3:05
Write around. There are enough films.
3:06
I mean there's a there's a film with Kirk Douglas I think, I
3:10
think I which I haven't seen. But if I want to say he played
3:14
Doc Holiday, he might be, it might be.
3:16
He might have played Wide Turt, but I think he was Doc.
3:19
I'm probably wrong. Film fans scream at me.
3:22
I should know this one. But there were there are enough,
3:24
there have been enough film adaptations of this story that,
3:30
you know, it's in the, it's in the, it's in the, it's in the,
3:32
it's in the collective consciousness.
3:34
It's, you know, people, people know the story.
3:36
You know, I mean, you know, you and I could sit down and write a
3:38
Robin Hood story right now without going away and doing any
3:42
homework, just by osmosis of, you know?
3:46
Mark. It's his exact approach, you
3:47
know. Yeah, but, you know, which is
3:50
fine, but the only thing that hurts my head is that I want
3:53
them to be robots. Because 1930s Errol Flynn, Robin
3:57
Hood, which is, you know, a Hollywood take on Ivanhoe, is
4:02
not how things were in the in the 12th century, you know?
4:07
Indeed. And yet and yet and yet we are
4:09
told that you know, no, this is. That's how it went down with
4:13
Robin Hood in his green tights, with little John Friar Tuck.
4:17
You know the Sheriff of Nottingham, you know it's.
4:20
Is it not then because you surprised me?
4:23
No, no, no. It's, you know the married guest
4:25
of Robin Hood. All this stuff developed over
4:27
the centuries, you know, and and the Robin Hood we have now you
4:30
know, like you know in in all adaptations digression.
4:34
But this is important people. So you will listen.
4:35
To me, pay attention. Yes, you will attend.
4:39
Yeah, in all adaptations of Robin Hood.
4:41
Now, pretty much one of the merry men will be from the Holy
4:44
Land. There'll be Saracen, who fought
4:47
on the other side from Richard the Leinhart in in Robin Hood,
4:50
Prince of Thieves. That was Morgan Freeman's
4:52
character. But that all comes from the 1985
4:56
TV series Robin of Sherwood, where that that that character
5:01
was invented. You know, the character that
5:03
Robin brings brings back from the Crusades to Nottingham.
5:07
So, you know, our stories, they're like snowballs rolling
5:12
down mountains gradually getting bigger and bigger and
5:14
accumulating more stuff. So, you know, so taking that
5:19
vast snowball of 1930s The Adventures of Robin Hood
5:23
starring Errol Flynn, Olivia de Havilland and Claude Rains and
5:27
Basil Rathbone, and then saying that Bosch, that's what it was
5:31
like 1000 years ago. Just makes me want to cry a bit,
5:36
but it just hurts my head. I mean, I can, I can.
5:39
Well, no, it just forces you to take that particular episode on
5:43
its own terms, but then you have to negotiate its relationship to
5:47
everything else around it. And that's what hurts my head.
5:50
But it's it's a bloody good episode.
5:52
But that that it just makes my headache for that reason.
5:56
In a row that goes into the ship at the end.
5:58
Oh God. I know.
6:00
I love all that. No, no, don't get me wrong.
6:02
It's a fantastic episode. It's just the the historicity of
6:06
Robin Hood, Maid Marian and the Merry Men is the thing that
6:10
happens to do my nut and there we go.
6:14
That's it. Massive digression, but it's
6:15
kind of it. But it is still relevant because
6:18
we're on the subject of historical accuracy.
6:20
And you know, it's kind of relevant here as well, whereas
6:23
you said you had a great time with this, but.
6:27
But it's just there are a thing. There are a few things
6:29
interestingly and significantly wrong with it.
6:31
So yeah, but yeah, it's not. So it's bad.
6:34
It's just, you know, it's not, it happens to not be to my taste
6:39
and that's. Certainly gives us a lot to talk
6:41
about. It does as and also they helped
6:44
make that rant seem almost relevant.
6:46
So you. Can always run on this, you
6:50
know, Look, you introed our countless in.
6:53
Oh yeah, lovely. In oh, I'm pressing play as
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well. Sorry 54321, let's go.
7:03
No. I didn't.
7:05
I didn't say it at the time, but that I do like that last shot
7:08
of. I don't know if it's repeated
7:10
here with the shadows of the bars over his body.
7:15
Yeah, no, they've worked hard on this, you know.
7:20
And they certainly did because they, you know, that healing
7:22
filming they do at the end of this, that ain't cheap, but they
7:26
they want to do it because they really want to give that shoot
7:28
out and here. Another shot through the
7:30
banisters here, mirroring. Starts with the song and the
7:36
doctors there. And the and the body on the bar
7:40
under a sheet. It's so good.
7:47
And so now that's right. So now one of the Clantons has
7:52
killed White's brother. So he's personal stakes in this.
7:57
Yeah. They want Johnny Ringo's
8:02
committed murder, so they want to go after him.
8:05
So there are some motives here now, you know, for people to.
8:08
Oh yeah. And the good thing is there is
8:10
there's momentum is now building towards a confrontation.
8:14
So that's yeah, which is good, which is good stuff.
8:19
I love this moment where the Doctor is deputised.
8:22
It's a great twist. Well, this is utterly absurd, he
8:26
says. Yeah, but I do kind of think,
8:28
and this is one I did have here, I think the story should have
8:30
milked the Doctor being cast slash mistaken slash
8:36
impersonating Doc Holiday more. I don't know how they would have
8:40
done it because no, I don't. I don't fight in the climax.
8:43
I just wish the Doctor was instrumental in some way in that
8:48
climax. Even even in, I mean the 7th
8:50
Doctor could have been instrumental and have not been
8:53
anywhere near it, and I think maybe it's affecting it at
8:56
distance somehow. It's Dodo's the one that's
9:00
involved. She's the one.
9:01
I'm glad. I'm glad she is.
9:03
I'm glad one of them is. Oh, despair.
9:06
It's hand on the body. Oh, that's wonderfully
9:14
tasteless. Now we are back with the
9:17
Clantons. See.
9:19
Yeah. Again my ears are hurting from
9:22
the accents but Paul Clanton is solid outward, again solid.
9:28
But you know it's he's you know, he's he's he he belongs in a
9:32
Western. Everyone else is playing at it.
9:34
And in a meta way I've read you know people say oh that's fine
9:37
because this isn't this is a this is an English Western.
9:40
So you know this is you know but I I just, I do have trouble you
9:45
know, reading it. It's.
9:47
Our big hurdle to get over, isn't it?
9:49
Look at the the shadows across the floor from the bars.
9:52
It's all great stuff, you know? This, yeah, this whole this,
9:55
this whole story looks great. Well, he's not dead.
10:00
Yet. That's why he dies in his arms
10:03
doesn't. He Yeah.
10:03
So we get to see him die in inverted commas for the
10:06
cliffhanger, but then we get to have him speak a bit and he
10:09
gets, he gets to act to a proper little death scene here, begin
10:12
filming through the bars, even through, you know, through open
10:14
doors into the cell. There's I've heard lots of talk
10:20
about this one being over ambitious, but no, it's it's
10:25
doing it's it's good. I don't.
10:27
I don't. It is execution.
10:29
Yeah, I don't. I don't look at it and think
10:31
it's overreaching. I'm I'm.
10:33
I'm happy with all of this. I think there are others stories
10:37
in the 1st Doctor's era that are over ambitious the web planet.
10:43
For example, this is this is good.
10:45
And also I must admit, in black and white Doctor Who looks hella
10:48
atmospheric. You know, it's like watching
10:49
quite a mass. I don't know why the lion always
10:52
looks so atmos ferric in black and white dogs who but it really
10:56
don't. I think they just, yeah, yeah,
10:57
yeah, live for the medium. Yeah, exactly.
11:00
Yeah. Yeah.
11:01
Yeah. Maybe it hides a few things, but
11:05
also like the sets, the costumes, it's all of a good
11:10
standard. It, you know, it really is.
11:12
It really is. And also just the, you know, the
11:15
filming through things over things and you know, just having
11:20
little bits of prop and scenery in the in the foreground, you
11:25
know, with action taking place beyond it and door doors open
11:29
and wind views through windows at the backdrops.
11:32
Yeah, well, I was going to say like, like this is going to
11:34
sound like a sort of weird thing to say, but establishing inside
11:38
and outside because it's all inside doing it that well, that,
11:43
you know, it's just sort of you can just watch it and yeah.
11:47
Yeah, there is real care being taken in terms of an illusion of
11:52
depth on a, on a, on a studio, on ATV studio.
11:57
And it's only really at the end where the back clothes go.
12:02
They're really need a massive set and they can do sort of
12:07
impressive long shots and and they go upstairs and you you can
12:11
see it's actually going up somewhere.
12:13
And I just love that whole sequence at the end.
12:16
I love it. I just like it is a problem that
12:20
our three regulars are so distanced from the class.
12:26
I think that's another if. If the Doctor had been more in a
12:30
bind, being unable to not be thought of as Doc Holiday
12:35
somehow, and we and we seem to be in danger of Oh my God, I'm
12:40
going to be in the gunfight that the OK Corral.
12:44
Oh Christ, I'd love to see that play out.
12:47
Yeah, I. Think that was even even,
12:49
Stephen? Yeah, even.
12:51
I mean, just to be true. Stephens in the strong.
12:53
But Stephen on the other side. If Stephen had somehow been kind
12:56
of press ganged by the Clantons and the doctors, mistaken
13:03
identity as Doc Holiday had somehow become something he had
13:06
to step into because of Doc Holiday's absence thanks to
13:09
Dodo, then suddenly you've got the doctrine and companion in in
13:13
danger of being on opposite sides in the gunfight, the OK
13:16
Corral. Have We just fixed it.
13:17
We just. We just.
13:19
We have, yeah. But.
13:20
There we go. What happens in The Myth Makers,
13:22
also written by Donald Cotton? You've got Vicky with the Greeks
13:26
and the Doctors with the Trojans, and they're on opposing
13:29
sides of this. Oh.
13:30
Well, there you go. In that case, we just need to
13:32
rip off what we've done already. What this writer did earlier in
13:35
the season, yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, that's that
13:37
would have that would have done it that that's what we needed to
13:39
be. So maybe you just have a lot of
13:43
fun indulging in cliches. Well, yeah.
13:46
And that's the thing. It's look at that shot, look at
13:49
that shot. It's great.
13:50
Yeah, it's great. And that that went in from that
13:52
kind of developed from a close. This is really well directed.
13:57
I feel as if Tucker just knew what a camera could do.
14:00
You know, like these these horrible, bloody great Daleks
14:03
they're shooting through. But.
14:06
Well, it's not it's it's not dissimilar from the way you'd
14:10
shoot film at the time. You know, an actual western, you
14:13
know, granted in ABBC studio, but still it's.
14:18
I mean this composition here it's a 5 pointed * essentially.
14:23
But you could pair it as those group scenes in the 80s where
14:27
everyone's sort of standing in a line, you know, theatrical way.
14:33
In some ways, things got less creative you.
14:35
Know. Yeah.
14:35
And look here. Look here.
14:36
You just, you know, depth of field, you know, 3 characters.
14:41
Kate in the back, Stephen in the middle Park, Clanton closest.
14:45
You know what this is missing. It's missing sort of the huge
14:49
vistas. You know when you go out of the
14:51
desert landscapes and you can have those impressive wide
14:54
angled shots of? Oh yeah, You know, the probably
14:57
John Ford stuff, Yeah, yeah. But to be honest, even you know,
15:04
film, the big films don't necessarily do that.
15:06
And I think this, I don't think this suffers really.
15:08
This is kind of you know. No, I think it's involving
15:13
enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:14
The one. The one place this is really let
15:16
down is the accents for me, plot plot niggles and lack of lack of
15:22
accuracy and lack of momentum early on.
15:26
Just little niggles of mine which I I just to entertain
15:29
myself. I think of alternatives.
15:31
That really is not because I think this should be different
15:34
because just it's just a fun little game for me to play
15:37
Script Editor on really Mr. Work.
15:42
When it when it comes to the accents as well, it's something
15:44
that could have easily have been fixed, you know?
15:49
Yeah, you know, those mistakes happen though, when you when you
15:52
when you when the script demands something you can't achieve.
15:56
It happens even. It happens all the time, you
15:58
know, unfortunately. I stopped complaining about that
16:00
sort of thing when in early reviews I was complaining about
16:03
American accents in Big Finish stories, and it turned out they
16:07
were Americans. An egg on my face.
16:12
Well, you know you can. You can.
16:14
You can criticize someone's native accent for not being
16:17
believable. It's still sticking up for Doc
16:20
Holiday Just. Yeah, yeah.
16:22
Is it me or is there? Is there a logic gap there
16:26
somewhere? I don't know very much so.
16:31
He. Took out your tooth, all right?
16:33
He didn't. Yeah, I think it should be.
16:35
The Doctor goes to such of a dentist, finds Doc Holiday.
16:38
Doc Holiday tricks him into being mistaken for him.
16:42
Then the Doctor is mistaken for Doc Holiday.
16:44
Doesn't wish to be mistaken of Doc Holiday, but then his own
16:48
ends just willingly allows himself to be.
16:51
But he he takes on that. He pretends to be Doc Holiday on
16:54
purpose. It it looks increasingly like
16:57
he's in danger of being involved in the gunfight.
16:58
OK Corral. Doc Holiday feels bad and then
17:03
has to reclaim, you know, save the Doctor by outing himself as
17:07
real Doc Holiday. Totally.
17:09
Yeah, that makes even more of a mess of the events.
17:11
But, you know, it would have been.
17:12
I was going to say, you know, yeah, it's gone.
17:14
It's gone too far now. He's in too deep as Doc Holiday,
17:17
that for some reason he has to be involved in the gunfight as
17:22
Doc Holiday. How the hell was he going to get
17:24
out of this? Yes, exactly.
17:26
Exactly. Yeah.
17:29
But not holidays. Now back and he's now he's and
17:35
he knows Johnny Ringo's on the scene so it's.
17:38
He's got personal states in this as well.
17:40
All the characters have their motives.
17:42
Yeah. And we've got our two sort of
17:45
sets now, haven't we? I'm going to say the goodies and
17:47
the baddies even. I know that wasn't the case, but
17:50
that's how it's presented here. Yeah, that that was kind of
17:53
argued over at the time. There were different newspapers
17:56
in town and some people sided with the UPS and others other
18:02
other journalists and the other papers saw, saw the UPS as just,
18:09
you know, menaces with the law on their side.
18:13
But you know, it was a very tenuous thing in those days.
18:16
But you know. What I know is I know who we're
18:20
supposed to be rooting for in this.
18:22
Oh yeah, yeah, it's you know the Clanton, yeah, the Clanton's are
18:25
wrong and wire TERP is the law, you know.
18:29
But like I said, Virgil Earp was the eldest brother.
18:35
Oh yeah, here we go in his. He's got his little glass of
18:38
milk. Yeah, yeah.
18:40
Milk in the saloon, which is yeah.
18:43
So you're here. This is where he should be
18:44
going. We need to get Stephen back.
18:46
We've got to get away from here. This is going to get ugly.
18:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he. Said.
18:51
He just goes well, how can I possibly go to sleep now?
18:54
And Stephen's out there. Yeah, exactly.
18:57
Yeah. It's it's a bit too casual at
19:00
this point, but the here's the thing.
19:02
These are minor quibbles that have got nothing to do with the,
19:05
you know, the terrible reputation that's garnered back
19:09
in the day. No.
19:11
And basically what we're doing is just having a lot of thought
19:14
experiments of how this could be different.
19:17
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
19:20
But like I would. Argue that.
19:22
Rob, I'll turn it off and go. I had a blast.
19:25
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I would say that, you know, I've
19:27
probably been playing fewer of these thought experiments if I
19:32
if, if it was, if it was stronger.
19:35
But you know, playing these thought experiments is just part
19:37
of my fun with this kind of thing.
19:39
So yeah, it's not a criticism, folks.
19:42
As we said before, there's more witty lines here than you can
19:45
shake a stick at. Oh.
19:46
It's so good, yeah. The accents are terrible, but
19:49
there are still some really good.
19:51
Performances but I but the Doctor, Stephen and Dodo are all
19:54
magnificent and I wouldn't change them.
19:57
All I do with Stephen is I the dilemma he's in.
20:01
I I'd probably think through the logic a second time but he's
20:06
really he's. But he's bloody good in it.
20:08
He's a pervis is so unsung, you know?
20:11
Yeah, and he's so good. Pervis is really funny, but he's
20:16
but he's pulling off the dramatic stuff and the comedy.
20:20
But when when the show needed him to take like to be the lead
20:27
in the massacre, yeah, he is excellent.
20:31
Did you, Did you, did you see when Park Clanton turned his gun
20:35
to the door and you just had the Doctor's silhouette on the other
20:38
side of the mesh door? So yeah, yeah.
20:43
And, you know, like, I'm sure there's many Doctor Who stories
20:50
in the 60s where I'll sit here going, wow, that looks great.
20:54
Wow, that's terrific. You know there's a handful, but
20:57
there aren't many. I mean it, you know, it's thing
21:02
people always say how good the BBC have always been at
21:05
historical stuff. But you know the fact this is,
21:08
this is, yes, it's in the Wild West, but you know it is you
21:11
know it's it's the Victorian era and they've always been very
21:15
good at this kind of stuff and the stuff they've dressed it
21:18
with could be used in you know a Sherlock Holmes story redressed
21:23
very mildly do I mean it's you know, it's it's it's well in
21:27
it's well in the BBC wheelhouse I suppose is what I'm driving at
21:31
but. I really like the Doctor in this
21:33
scene. I'm trying to avert the
21:37
bloodshed. And also the fact that you know,
21:38
he, he, he wins, he in that he, he, he gets Parkland to realise,
21:47
oh shit, this is going to be a massacre.
21:49
My, my son's, my son's are the facing Doc holiday.
21:52
This is going to be a bloodbath. And he's playing that well as
21:56
well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the
21:57
thing. Yeah.
21:59
Reed De Ruon, I think. I think it's perhaps De Ruon.
22:01
It should be I think. But he's brilliant in this.
22:04
Again, he's he's because he's an American.
22:07
He's the one actor in this who I'm.
22:11
There's no barrier between me and his performance in the form
22:14
of a shonky accent and he and he's great.
22:17
And just as a thought experiment, it's a production
22:19
thing. But imagine if that were true of
22:22
the entire cast. Then the level that this would
22:25
be playing at would be well up there.
22:29
I asked. Probably one of the big tweaks
22:31
that would have sold this more of people, yeah.
22:35
Yeah. There's a shot in a second where
22:40
they're on the, what do you call it?
22:42
Not the High Street. What, what's it called in a
22:45
western town where they're facing off against each other?
22:49
Yeah, camera goes really high. It's beautiful.
22:54
It's in a second. Yeah, but look at the sense of
22:57
space that's being created by filming through from the like
23:02
the boardwalk and then you just things propped up against the
23:06
the handrail. But that is clearly not the BBC
23:10
studio they're in anymore, right?
23:14
Yeah, they're on Ealing now. On film, it does make a
23:19
difference even. It's just a picture quality as
23:21
well, OK. I suppose as well on the level
23:25
of we've got to know these characters, we'd like them and
23:28
we don't want anything to happen to them.
23:30
It works on that level as well. You.
23:31
Know. Oh, no.
23:32
Yeah. No, Totally, Totally, Yeah.
23:35
And also at this point there is a sense of doom about it.
23:38
You know that we are that they are spoiling for a confrontation
23:44
is going to happen. It's just that suddenly the
23:48
Doctor, Stephen and Dodo feel suddenly absent.
23:52
It doesn't kind of matter because we're invested in these
23:54
guys and here and here we go. Do you know what we're I think
23:59
we're all being gunned down horribly.
24:01
We like great. That's one accent gone and
24:03
another one. And here we are back, a lovely
24:08
crane shot from underneath the wagon to the over the wagon.
24:14
That's really, really good. In fact, do you know what I
24:16
think there's a Star Trek that they tried to pull off a Western
24:21
in the 60s. Spectre of the gun.
24:22
I think this looks better. Yeah.
24:24
Now the real. Gunfight at the OK Corral lasted
24:29
30 seconds. It was a short, bloody, rapid,
24:35
dirty. Yeah, it wasn't.
24:37
This is the climax to any this is a climax to, you know, an
24:43
episode of Gunsmoke or something, you know?
24:45
And we have this big confrontation between Doc
24:48
Holiday and Johnny Ringo, these two nemesis, which is totally,
24:52
dramatically fish, fish fitting. But Johnny Ringo did not die at
24:57
and was not involved in the gunfight.
24:59
The OK Corral. Oh, OK.
25:02
Yeah. He died.
25:04
He did not have that ladybird. Book did he?
25:06
No, he don't. Yeah.
25:07
Yeah. He did not.
25:09
I don't think it exists, but it should do.
25:11
But, but the fact that Dodo's involved is great, but that is
25:15
not the gunfight at the OK Corral happening.
25:18
There's many people, you know that.
25:19
Would say that you know Putin and.
25:22
Look. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:25
So Johnny Ringo is very, very coldly murdered here by Doc
25:30
Holiday. In this is a nasty, cold piece
25:32
of work, actually. Which is fine, because he
25:34
probably was in real life too. But yeah, Johnny Ringo died of a
25:40
gunshot wound to his right temple.
25:42
He was found dead. It's likely it was
25:46
self-inflicted, but there are some stories that Y terp killed
25:50
him. There are other stories that Doc
25:53
Holiday found him and killed him, but there are other stories
25:55
that other guys killed him. But the actual truth of his
25:59
death is a mystery. But he was he didn't.
26:03
He was not killed at the gunfight, the OK Corral.
26:05
But what the story needs is a an ostensible white hat in the form
26:10
of Doc Holiday killing the black cat in the form of in the form
26:16
of Johnny Ringo. So it works on that level, but
26:19
as as as historical reenactment, it's bollocks.
26:24
And also this gunfight has. Been going on for quite some
26:27
time. Oh yeah, it's great.
26:32
Yeah, you don't want to build up to a 32nd, was that it?
26:40
Or you do collect Sam pecking pass slow motion.
26:42
So yeah, in real time it was 30 seconds, but filmed at this
26:46
rate, you know, a minute. And 1/2.
26:49
If we didn't have. Like a gunfight it would feel
26:52
like a total anti climber. Yes, he.
26:55
Is loving filming around this wagon and it adds so much
26:58
dynamism. It's really horrible though.
27:03
Yeah, this. This is brutal, cold, slow
27:07
gunning down of people and very, very slow deaths too.
27:10
But that's the the sort kids, kids play.
27:13
They play Cowboys. This, I love.
27:16
This shot where they all come out.
27:18
Yeah, shot from above, where all three of them shoot, but it's
27:22
already been. It's already.
27:23
Been established that his gun was out so that they, you know,
27:26
they're just, they're just slowly walking around casually
27:29
murdering people. But here we go.
27:32
Cheap victory, Rob. Yeah, yeah.
27:35
Exactly, yeah. But here we are and here we are
27:38
ending with the with the ballad again and again.
27:42
This is something we don't really do.
27:44
We're like we'll have shots of corpses, and we don't usually
27:47
linger over for like 30 seconds. The execution.
27:53
Of that entire sequence was Oh no, it was excellent.
27:57
But also, you know, this is, this is the gunfighters.
27:59
It's about the gunfight, the OK Corral.
28:01
You want to give it that time even if even if you know.
28:09
Even even here we've. Got you know the sense of depth
28:12
created by just the back using the backdrops, which in black,
28:16
in black and white filming is put, you know, you know what you
28:21
were saying. The crime came out, the TARDIS
28:23
all excited and then you know, the bubble.
28:25
Yeah. But then she, she, she dodo
28:29
literally hears the music and she's all romantic.
28:31
It. I'm like, well, yeah, learn
28:32
nothing, have you? And that's.
28:34
That's another little adjustment that you'd make, is that the
28:38
tragedy really is that Stephen and Dodo have had their
28:42
illusions shattered about the Old West.
28:45
That's what it should be. Look at Dodo now.
28:47
Clearly not. Yeah.
28:49
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
28:51
But if you, you know, if you were aiming to try and elevate
28:55
this further, you that's what it would be.
28:57
It would be like, Oh well, everything I knew about the West
29:01
is down to the fault of that. You know, songs like that, you
29:04
know, movie, you know, the movies that came from those, you
29:07
know. So it should be that thing of
29:09
the song. The song lies to you.
29:12
The song is a lie. Whereas what they.
29:14
Actually want to do is end on a song and an upbeat note?
29:17
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
29:19
And now we have a rather odd little coder that doesn't really
29:22
sit at all well with the rest of it, but you.
29:26
Know Have you Have you listened to the soundtracks, To the
29:29
savages? I have not.
29:31
No, OK. It's a bit.
29:32
Underrated. Actually.
29:34
I call it PO faced. Oh yeah, but it's it's an
29:36
interesting little morality play where Frederick Jaeger gets to
29:39
do a fantastic impression of William Hartnell for a couple of
29:41
episodes. Oh cool.
29:43
Yeah. It's it's not too bad.
29:47
I did have. One final note.
29:48
Yeah, the doctors closing comments about Western cliches
29:51
should have been what the whole thing was about.
29:53
That was one of my notes, but yeah.
29:57
I feel like we've said this a couple of times that even though
30:01
we are picking at this, just yeah.
30:06
Just, yeah, yeah, in the lightest possible way.
30:08
This is not you know we've not come to bury this.
30:11
It's this does not this does not deserve the program it had.
30:18
I also think it neither does it deserve kind of the rapid
30:22
enthusiastic positivity about it.
30:25
Well yeah it's but and there's no I wouldn't say it's in the
30:29
middle either it's it's a bloody good story.
30:33
It's hugely fun. Hugely entertaining, I would
30:36
say. All my little suggestions.
30:38
It's just me having fun with it. It's my own amusement.
30:41
I think just the one true big problem is the accents.
30:45
And that's it. But you know, but for the
30:47
purposes of this commentary, I've just just.
30:49
I've tried to just look past them.
30:51
Really. What can I ask you?
30:53
Then a question from me from. You have questions?
30:56
From everybody else. Oh yes.
30:58
Oh yeah. You can ask me a question me.
31:01
Well, because this is one of two Westerns that we have in Doctor
31:06
Who, this town called Mercy, yeah.
31:11
And I'm going to say. Which is best?
31:12
Because I know you lie a question, but which is more
31:15
effective as a Western? This one, I think because if
31:23
I've only I only saw A Town Called Mercy on broadcast.
31:26
You know, I think I've said before I don't watch Doctor very
31:28
often. I think you know sometimes once
31:30
is it enough but I think as a Western this because it's about
31:36
the West. You know inaccurate though it
31:38
may be it's still about the West.
31:41
If memory serves A tackle. Mercy uses Western tropes but
31:46
it's it's more about it's it's more it's more about if you meet
31:53
if you met Joseph Mangler in Argentina how would that go
31:56
down. But in in the context of the
31:58
Wild West, he's got nothing. If I I can't I can barely
32:01
remember it to be quite honest. Is it?
32:05
Is it about the West or is it just set there for my?
32:09
Basically set there, but the androids like the Gunslinger and
32:13
at the end he's protecting the town.
32:15
You're right, it's a lot of tropes and it's a morality play.
32:18
It's very effective as such. And the one thing it has over
32:21
this is it can do those phenomenal vistas.
32:27
Yeah, but is it about? The West.
32:29
No, no, this kind. This, this is.
32:32
Even though they I I think they fudge it in places.
32:35
This is about going to the this is about people who are not from
32:39
the Wild West but have ideas about what it is, the kind of
32:43
ideas immortalized in the kind of song that is the band of the
32:45
Last Chance Saloon. And then you have the bloody
32:49
grim reality of it. So those those things are there,
32:52
even if they're not perhaps dealt with supremely well, it's
32:58
still about the myth of the West.
33:03
I feel as if I've. I feel as if I've had a good
33:06
sort of bath in Western cliches. Jolly good time as well.
33:11
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's. I I I had huge fun with this and
33:15
it was great. It's great watching a a bit of
33:17
Doctor Who you've never seen before.
33:18
I know lots of people especially listen to this, have watched it
33:22
all. I'm not one of those people, so
33:24
getting to see the occasional story I have never seen and
33:27
never sought out is fun. It's the first.
33:30
Hamster I've ever done where the commentary is after the first
33:34
viewing. Oh, interesting.
33:36
OK. Cool.
33:37
Yeah, yeah, probably good for a few more of those, but always.
33:43
Talk to you so I'll hit you up. But before we out this one, now
33:48
you know what we've got to do. Three things.
33:52
To recommend the gunfires each Oh yeah, sure, sure.
33:54
Back. And forth you first.
33:56
Then me, off you go. This is worth what the
34:01
gunfighters is well worth watching because our three
34:05
leads, the Doctor, Stephen and Dodo are all wonderful in it.
34:10
There we go. OK.
34:12
The Gunfighters is worth watching because the direction
34:17
by Rex Tucker is extremely apparent and very impressive.
34:23
That would be my second. One.
34:24
So that's good. These are good reasons.
34:27
The third reason is because it's it's a Doctor Who story, which
34:32
is wonderfully bound together by a song.
34:40
Yeah, I I genuinely think that, warts and all, having that
34:46
ballad be the the thing that is woven throughout it is an
34:53
undeniable strength of the piece.
34:55
I think it could be wielded better, but I still think it's.
35:01
I still think it's an undeniable strength.
35:04
My second, then, is going to be I think this starts as a comedy.
35:10
And what? No, effectively this is a
35:12
comedy. Oh yeah.
35:13
No. Yeah.
35:14
Yeah. But it's a comedy with a bite.
35:17
And I like that. And the bite, you know, it kind
35:19
of gets deeper and deeper as we go along.
35:23
And yeah, it is very funny, but by the end it is very dangerous.
35:28
And I just like those two things together.
35:30
Yeah, nice. Nice.
35:32
I think my third one will be the gunfighters.
35:36
Is an object. Lesson in the fact that received
35:43
fan wisdom is bollocks. That's the best.
35:50
Reason. Yeah.
35:52
And my last one is I'm going to separate one performance from
35:57
something you've already said, because you've already said the
35:59
Doctor. But I'm going to say William
36:01
Hartnell, because I think his reputation is that he's prickly
36:06
old git and he can be so charming and so funny and
36:12
deliver witty lines with such panache.
36:16
And I think that's very evident here.
36:20
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
36:21
Yeah. Absolutely, yes.
36:22
Yeah. And he.
36:23
Deserves celebration because I think he languishes somewhere
36:27
near the bottom of these poles, you know, these crazy people.
36:31
But he's the governor. He's the first.
36:33
You know, he set the standard. Yeah, and a lot of.
36:35
What we actually attribute to later to doctors is already
36:39
there with him. That's the thing, you know, as
36:43
we said, like. With him holding the guns at the
36:45
bar, nothing set in stone yet. Yeah, yeah, it.
36:48
Hasn't it hasn't been codified. It's not rigid yet.
36:52
It's still malleable, plastic, bendy and other adjectives.
36:59
But yeah, it's yeah it's not yet it's not yet.
37:02
It's it's still has the capacity to utterly surprise you.
37:06
I think that's the that's the truth of it, let's just say.
37:09
Before we out, as a little bonus extra thing is that due to the
37:15
gunfighters being so historically inaccurate, I've
37:20
learnt a great deal today. So I may not have been educated
37:24
by the gunfighters, but doing the commentary on it I've learnt
37:26
a lot. Well, I kind of I.
37:28
Kind of feel bad. I kind of wish I'd brought more
37:30
historical facts and actually kind of brought the brought the
37:34
lesson on on on the gunfight with me but but I think we did
37:39
OK. I would say that it's well worth
37:42
watching. If you're interested, there are
37:45
there are several movies, but we have watched the 1993 film
37:48
Tombstone, which is about Wire, Terp and Doc Holiday and Johnny
37:54
Ringo and the Cowboys and all that stuff.
37:57
And also and we also mentioned Unforgiven by the Clint Eastwood
38:01
film. Again, what is one of my
38:04
favorite films That, and that's all about going right at the top
38:07
of? My list?
38:07
Yeah, that's. All about the the fantasy versus
38:12
the reality of the Wild West. Actually there was a there.
38:16
Was a question by Johnny Morrissey asked on Twitter,
38:18
which hasn't come up. But yeah, it was, Yeah.
38:23
Why is there a last chance saloon when two Star is nowhere
38:27
near the state line? And I think, yeah, the answer is
38:31
because it's all bollocks. But I think if you're being
38:33
charitable, I think it's because the idea of the last chance
38:37
saloon in the English imagination, which is kind of
38:40
divorced from, you know, any kind of understanding of these
38:43
things, is because the last chance saloon is, is it's a
38:47
state of mind rather than somewhere that's near the state
38:50
border. And I think the gunfighters
38:53
exists in the English imagination and they Yeah,
38:59
that's it. Rob, you're wonderful.
39:03
Honestly, you're so good at this.
39:04
I could listen to you for another three hours, but
39:08
unfortunately both of us got to go to bed.
39:09
Yeah, we've done Sharda. Already, anyway.
39:14
Thank you so much. This has been a real pleasure.
39:17
It has What? You know, thank you very much
39:19
for getting me to watch something new to me because,
39:23
yeah, I find it increasingly difficult these days for some
39:26
reason to. Yeah, I don't know why.
39:29
I think it's just fatigue. I'm going.
39:31
To start firing off of the stories, you know, that I
39:34
haven't done. And then like, I haven't done
39:36
that. I haven't watched that.
39:37
All right. Oh, yeah, sure.
39:39
I'm. I'm up for doing this again
39:40
sometime because these are these are very very fun always.
39:44
It's like, well, let me say thank you very much, you are a
39:48
joy to be around and until next time, I'll see you then.