Latest / Life Lived Better / Episode 150: Ibogaine - Breakthrough or Risk?

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Episode 150: Ibogaine - Breakthrough or Risk? · Life Lived Better

0:03
Hi, this is Paula. And I'm Joseph, and you're
0:06
listening to Life Lived Better. Welcome back everyone to the
0:12
Life Live Better podcast, your space for self discovery, mental
0:15
Wellness and personal growth. As always, we are grateful you
0:19
have joined us for this episode today.
0:21
But before we jump into our topic, let's do a quick check
0:24
in. Paula, how are you?
0:26
I'm doing well. I'm doing really well.
0:28
Things are going great. It's, you know, like spring
0:32
toward the summer. Classes are wrapping up.
0:35
My son's graduating this month. It's just all the stuff.
0:39
It's a great time of the for me, I always kind of look at spring
0:43
and the start of summer is like, you know, becoming a new, you
0:47
know, what's new, like the flowers blooming.
0:50
I always kind of feel that personally to know how about
0:53
you? How?
0:54
How do you look at it? I love this time of year.
0:57
It's just kind of a nice. I know right now it's been kind
0:59
of rainy and everything is green and like you said, blooming.
1:03
So it's really nice out. It's kind of a great time to,
1:06
it's time to start mowing yards again and all that, which I most
1:10
of the time enjoy until they the true summer kicks in with the
1:14
heat. But yeah, things have been going
1:18
good. I don't know if I've mentioned,
1:19
but our house got flooded. And so we've been dealing with
1:21
repairs for a month or two now and everything is about done.
1:27
All the repairs from the flood are done.
1:29
But then we decided to remodel our, our guest bathroom because
1:33
we hadn't been through enough dirt debris, but it's, it's
1:38
pretty much done. Everything turned out great.
1:40
So it's just been a little hellacious to live through.
1:45
And this is the second time this has happened.
1:47
So it's just, you know, we're pros at this point.
1:50
And isn't there always something that can be done when you own a
1:53
house? Something that can always be
1:55
changed just a tad, or just. It's always, always a project.
2:00
That's for sure. I'm telling you, I feel the same
2:02
way. Yeah.
2:03
Well, So what are we talking about today in this episode?
2:07
Well, I'm actually really excited that we're talking today
2:10
about the drug ibogaine. But before we get started, I
2:13
want to take a moment to kind of remind everybody that today's
2:17
conversation includes a discussion about addiction.
2:20
We're going to talk about emerging treatments and some of
2:23
the risks that are associated with them, but our goal isn't to
2:26
promote or discourage any specific type of approach to
2:30
treating addiction. Just thought it was important
2:33
for us as addiction professionals to provide a
2:36
thoughtful, balanced piece of information so people can make
2:40
their own decisions, so they can better support themselves or
2:43
their own recovery. Absolutely, and as always, this
2:47
podcast is for educational purposes and is not a substitute
2:51
for medical or mental health advice.
2:53
Let's keep that in mind. We encourage you to consult the
2:56
qualified professionals in your lives or seek out qualified
2:59
professionals when exploring treatment options, and to
3:03
approach topics like this with both curiosity and care.
3:07
Education is so incredibly important.
3:10
It really is. I just think it's part of our
3:12
responsibility to talk about everything that's available out
3:15
there. And this is something that's
3:17
new, newly available, and it has been getting a lot of attention
3:22
lately, like in clinical circles and in the even in the media.
3:26
And like Joe Rogan had a podcast about it.
3:28
So, you know, if it's on Joe Rogan, it's kind of making the
3:31
rounds of, of, of just regular society.
3:35
No, I don't say regular society, but you know, just general
3:39
people who listen to podcasts that aren't on necessarily
3:43
addiction or counseling or even kind of hearing about it.
3:47
So I mean, it's one of those conversations where curiosity,
3:50
caution, compassion, all of them kind of sit at the same table,
3:54
you know, at the same time, in my opinion.
3:56
And you know, if you're a counselor, you may already be
3:59
hearing clients asking about it. And if you're somebody that's
4:03
interested in Wellness or recovery, you've probably seen
4:06
it in the headlines. You might even seen it under
4:08
things calling it like a miracle cure.
4:11
Oh, I love it when people use that term.
4:14
Miracle cure I'm. Telling you.
4:16
And with most things in behavioral health, it's really
4:20
never that simple. So today we want to unpack the
4:23
ibogaine, what it is, what the claims, what it claims to do,
4:29
what the research says and the risk involved and most
4:32
importantly what this means for us as counselors.
4:36
Right, right. You know, I don't want this to
4:38
be about promoting or condemning.
4:40
I just want us to all understand, you know, and I
4:44
suppose the place to start is with the basics.
4:46
You know, just what is ibogaine? You know, it is a psychoactive
4:50
substance and it's derived from the root bark of the iboga iboga
4:57
plant. And it's traditionally it's been
5:00
used in like West Central Africa, particularly in
5:04
spiritual ceremonies with a in like the pygmy cultures and some
5:09
of those traditions. Interesting.
5:11
And, you know, just in that context, it's not just a
5:14
substance, it's part of a deeply structured spiritual and
5:18
cultural experience, which is most important because of what
5:21
we're seeing now in Western medicine is a very different
5:25
application in modern context. Ibogaine is being explored
5:29
primarily as a treatment for substance use disorders,
5:31
especially specifically opioid addiction.
5:35
And what makes it unique is that the claim that it can interrupt
5:39
addiction in a way that's very different from our traditional
5:43
ways of treating opioid addiction.
5:46
And that's why I was excited about it because, you know,
5:48
after working in the field for as many decades as I have, it's
5:51
nice to see something new, you know?
5:55
And I learned about it because in Texas, one of our former
5:58
governors, Rick Perry, and I remember him because he was
6:01
like, governor back when I was just getting interested in
6:05
politics. I was like a teenager.
6:08
And we were talking about it in high school, you know, politics
6:11
in high school and stuff. And Rick, Rick Perry served as a
6:14
staunch Republic. He was very, very into harsh
6:18
punishments for substances. He was all about the Nancy
6:22
Reagan just say no to drugs campaign and he was backing it
6:28
100%. He, he and the, the board now of
6:33
an organization called Americans for Ibogaine took it, took
6:38
ibogaine all the way to the Texas Legislature.
6:41
And believe it or not, in March, Senate Bill 2308, which
6:46
allocated $50 million in Texas of funding.
6:50
It was signed into law because of his backing.
6:53
So this staunch anti drug, send them all to prison governor
6:58
comes out in support of it. And to me that's a very big
7:01
deal. And it's a very big deal in
7:03
Texas because Texas does not have a history of doing things
7:07
that are cutting edge edge as it relates to substances and
7:10
rehabilitation and stuff. So in, I guess mid-april, the
7:15
federal government followed suit when President Donald Trump
7:19
signed an executive order to invest in and then accelerate
7:22
research on psychedelic therapies.
7:24
And the focus is on ibogaine. So I digress, but let's keep
7:28
talking about ibogaine. I was just excited about the
7:31
fact that these people who were so anti treatment in historical
7:36
context, you know, factually are now like saying, hey, maybe I
7:41
was wrong. Maybe there's something to this?
7:43
Makes me wonder if maybe he's had like personal experience
7:46
with someone. Yeah.
7:47
He did he, he told him the story of when he was governor, he used
7:51
to tell people all the time like, hey, if you're ever in
7:53
Austin, stop by the governor's mansion.
7:55
I'll take you to dinner. And a guy did it, a guy who was
7:59
a military veteran who was having horrible PTSD.
8:03
And because his wife was a nurse, she recognized that this
8:07
guy when they went to dinner, that this guy was also consuming
8:10
alcohol at a very like, you know, difficult, maybe like,
8:16
like dependent kind of way. And he cut, he was kind of
8:21
covering up the fact that he had opioid use disorder and it was
8:26
related back to the PTSD. And he said he ended up moving
8:30
into the governor's mansion and just, he kind of saw him break
8:35
apart and then get himself back together.
8:38
And he was on the verge of losing his marriage, his child.
8:42
He was considering taking his own life.
8:45
And our former governor also mentioned how horribly our
8:51
veterans are. Not that they're treated
8:54
horribly, They're just not treated well for PTSD and
8:57
addiction. They give them a lot of meds for
9:00
the pain that they experience. I'm married to a veteran.
9:03
I know this. They give them the meds, then
9:05
all the sudden they can't give them the meds anymore.
9:08
And now you have a person that's addicted to opioids.
9:10
They also have PTSD. The opioids are just kind of a
9:13
disguise, you know, just something to mask it.
9:16
And then there's somebody has no access to opioids anymore
9:20
legally because they're all the legal access is gone.
9:23
And what do they do? You know, they turn to St. drugs
9:26
and then they have an opioid issue and they're looked at as
9:30
that horrible person with an addiction.
9:32
So this guy went through all the just jump through all the hoops.
9:36
He was desperate to do something.
9:38
And what Rick Perry said is he saw him go out of the country to
9:42
Mexico to get this ibogaine treatment.
9:44
He came back and he it changed his life.
9:48
And so he started thinking, OK, if this works.
9:51
And then like this guy had a twin brother and he went through
9:54
something similar. He, he was also treated.
9:56
And so he got more into trying to figure out more about this.
9:59
He met some people who gave him lots of factual information
10:03
about it. They did research and they put
10:05
together this board, you know, to say, OK, we need to promote
10:10
this and Texas needs to look into it.
10:12
And so he got together with a fellow who had got it, got it
10:16
passed. And I believe the state of
10:17
Tennessee, Tennessee or Kentucky, one of the two, one of
10:21
those two states. And this guy's so educated.
10:24
It's, it's beyond belief. I was listening to the podcast
10:28
thinking, God, he's just reading that.
10:30
So I, we watched, I knew there was a video of the podcast.
10:33
I went and watched it. No, he wasn't reading anything.
10:34
He's just so well versed in, in ibogaine that he just knows it
10:40
line by line by line. And it was amazing.
10:43
Just the information that he had to give to back it up, the
10:46
research he had to give. And then with Rick Perry
10:49
promoting it, I thought, I've got to find out more information
10:51
about this. If Texas said yes to it, that's
10:55
so significant just knowing our state and its history with what
10:58
it puts its money into. Yeah, yeah, it's very true.
11:03
I know that was long winded. Well, something really
11:06
interesting is some reports even suggest that ibogaine can reduce
11:10
or even eliminate withdrawal symptoms.
11:13
So man, who wouldn't be drawn to that?
11:16
So and you know, not just that, it's also said to reduce like
11:20
the overall cravings and provide what many people described as
11:24
deeply introspective, almost like a life review experience,
11:29
if you will. And you've worked with people
11:32
who have opioid use disorder and they take medication to treat
11:37
that. What are your, I mean, like what
11:38
do you think about something that comes along that says it
11:41
could reduce or eliminate withdrawal symptoms and create
11:44
reduce cravings? I think it's great if there's
11:47
something, you know, something new that actually works that can
11:50
help people. I know I've heard two kind of
11:54
ways of thinking, ways of thought, if you will, from
11:58
people that are recovered that, you know, they, some people feel
12:01
like you don't need to experience withdrawals in order
12:04
to be able to get clean and sober.
12:06
And others feel like you need to experience the pain and
12:09
discomfort of withdrawal in order to remember that and, and
12:13
think to yourself, I don't ever want to experience that again.
12:16
So there's different, you know, ways of thinking in regards to
12:20
that. But I think like you said, if
12:22
there's something new and we were so used to the same
12:26
treatment that's been around forever and ever and ever, it
12:30
just makes sense. I mean, there's new medications
12:32
and new things that come along all of the time, but when it
12:35
comes to recovery and addiction, there's just not a lot so.
12:40
I have to keep my mind open because like when you were
12:43
talking about, some people say, wow, that's a big deal.
12:45
It takes away that pain. And then another person says,
12:49
oh, but you need to have the pain.
12:50
My mind automatically started weighing which one is right,
12:54
which one is the right way instead of me thinking both
12:57
ways. Those ways are, are kind of
13:00
coexist. They don't have to be either not
13:02
mutually exclusive that one person may need to experience
13:07
that and another person doesn't have to.
13:10
And that's why I guess I think this is such a big deal.
13:13
You know that yes, there's now a new possibility and it's not one
13:18
anyone has to take, but for someone who wants to.
13:21
And I know I, I people like also report real vivid visions while
13:26
undergoing this treatment. And the treatment even it's like
13:28
around 72 hours. I think it may be shorter,
13:31
longer, but like, and during those visions, they revisit past
13:36
trauma and they gain insight into their behaviors.
13:39
To me, that also sounds a little like ayahuasca.
13:43
And we can do an episode on ayahuasca, but it's almost like
13:46
an accelerated therapeutic process but without a therapist
13:50
guiding it in real time. So is there a therapist
13:54
involved? I do not know enough to know.
13:57
I believe it's just a medical procedure.
14:00
OK, OK. Well, that's kind of a key
14:03
point. The experience can really last
14:06
anywhere from 12 to 36 hours and sometimes longer like you
14:12
mentioned. And during that time,
14:14
individuals may feel like they're confronting really the
14:18
root causes of some of their addiction.
14:20
And we talk a lot about that. That addiction generally stems
14:24
from somewhere there's some kind of root issue, maybe multiple
14:28
root issues. But being able to kind of go
14:31
back and look at that and address those things, I can see
14:34
how that could be, you know, very healing for people.
14:37
And I did hear someone say like, this is not like if you're
14:40
thinking of hallucinogens and whooping it up for 12 to 36
14:44
hours, it is not like that at all.
14:47
It is more like being on the brink of hell, you know?
14:50
So it's not a pleasant experience.
14:53
Someone really has to want to stop the opioid use to go
14:57
through this. And so it's not like a party
15:00
type of experience. I want to make sure everyone get
15:03
hears that. Yeah.
15:05
And for the counselors listening, this raises an
15:08
important question. And that question is, is this
15:10
breakthrough or is it just bypassing the therapeutic
15:13
process because inside alone does not equal integration.
15:18
What do you think about that, Paula?
15:20
Yeah, I'd say, I mean, yes, I mean that is true because as
15:24
soon as you said is a therapist involved, I thought, yeah, you
15:27
know, I didn't hear anything about a therapist being
15:30
involved. So probably like anything you do
15:34
for addiction, it doesn't end just because you go through a 36
15:40
to 72 hour process and the the craving is gone.
15:45
I think that's when the work starts, you know?
15:48
What do you think about that? I think that's pretty spot on.
15:52
I thought, You know, we used to say in residential treatment,
15:54
you know, the work starts once you step off that curve out
15:57
there. And I think with anything you
15:59
can, you can get, I mean, I don't know exactly how this
16:02
works, but I feel like the mental part of it is something
16:05
that has to be managed to long term.
16:08
And so I always tell people like the physical part is short
16:11
lived, you know, the the detox process, but the mental part of
16:15
it is what you have to really learn to manage long term.
16:18
And we definitely need to talk about the risks, you know,
16:21
because this is where things become very serious.
16:24
And ibogaine's not approved for use in the United States.
16:28
It's classified as a Schedule 1 substance.
16:31
So right up there with all the other high, high risk and
16:35
regulated medications. And so it's there's no
16:38
regulation, it's not standardized, it's not FDA
16:42
approved, There's no protocol for its use here.
16:46
It would only be able to be used in those clinical trials that
16:49
were approved through the law that I mentioned earlier.
16:53
Well, and it's important to note that there have been documented
16:56
cases of cardiac complications, including fatal arrhythmias.
17:01
So this is not a benign substance.
17:03
It affects the heart, the nervous system and the brain and
17:08
really profound ways and that cannot be left unsaid.
17:12
This is not a treatment for a casual user.
17:15
This is a very serious, sounds like moderated experience.
17:21
Completely, completely. That's why I guess they do it in
17:23
a medical setting and obviously there will be options in Texas
17:28
in the future. But where does a person go
17:31
today, you know, for ibogaine treatment?
17:34
And that is another one of the important factors to discuss.
17:37
Many of the treatment centers offering ibogaine are located
17:40
outside of the US in places like Mexico and Costa Rica.
17:44
And insurance will not pay for this treatment.
17:47
So it's new. It's there's not a lot, you
17:49
know, necessarily known about it.
17:52
I will say other countries seem to like be advanced when it
17:55
comes to things like this more so than the US And so I think
18:00
you know, a lot of times good stuff comes from the other
18:05
countries experiences, right? And I'm sure it's, we have so
18:08
many hoops to jump through for things to be improved.
18:10
I think they can go into them more quickly when they realize
18:14
they might work. So but the treatment found
18:16
outside the United States that that might be like more
18:19
affordable means varying levels of medical oversight, you know,
18:24
screening follow up care and treatments outside of the United
18:27
States don't have to adhere to the regulations that we have in
18:30
place here. So I think that's cautionary
18:33
too. Yeah, for being honest.
18:35
Clients who are desperate for relief may not fully understand
18:39
those risks. You know, and that's why I'm
18:41
talking earlier about how important it is to educate and
18:44
research and, you know, do your homework.
18:47
And that's probably, you know, people who feel like they've
18:49
exhausted every other option, they're probably willing to take
18:52
such a big risk. Well, we need to talk a bit
18:56
about the ethical considerations for counselors.
18:59
So what do we do when a client ask about.
19:01
I became, Yeah. Well, I guess first, we don't
19:03
panic. You know, we don't shut the
19:05
conversation down. You know, now that it's
19:08
available and has so much news coverage, I think we should
19:12
probably anticipate some questions coming up.
19:14
Yeah. And I think it's important to
19:16
consider this an opportunity for non judgmental dialogue.
19:20
Everybody has their opinion, everybody has their thoughts,
19:23
but we shouldn't be judgmental if someone is curious about
19:26
trying something or, you know, exploring their options.
19:30
Yeah, and I guess just as good counselors do, we want to
19:33
understand why they're interested.
19:35
You know, what are they hoping this will do for them if they've
19:37
heard about it? So asking questions to discover
19:41
things like is it about relief or withdrawals?
19:44
Is this for healing trauma, past traumas?
19:47
Or are they experiencing a sense of hopelessness?
19:50
What is it meant to do? Right.
19:53
And then like we usually would with any kind of situation a
19:56
client brings up, you know, we can provide accurate evidence
20:00
based information including the risks.
20:03
We always have to tell clients about the risks involved in any
20:06
kind of. Options that we're talking with
20:09
them about. And I think, you know, as
20:11
therapist, it's our responsibility to educate
20:14
ourselves on these different types of treatment and again, be
20:18
non judgmental, not have, you know, opinions that we
20:21
necessarily put out there, but just kind of meet the client
20:24
where they are. So we have to do that without
20:27
shaming anyone and without dismissing their curiosity.
20:31
And we have to stay within our scope.
20:33
That's really important. So not prescribing, but we are
20:37
definitely guiding. And there's also the ethical
20:40
responsibility to explore like aftercare when they when they
20:44
would complete an Abigain program, because even if
20:47
somebody undergoes that treatment, you know, like we've
20:49
said over and over, the hard work starts after the program.
20:53
Absolutely. And, you know, because
20:55
integration is an important piece to consider.
20:59
If someone has a profound psychological experience but
21:02
doesn't integrate it, it can actually create, you know, more
21:05
confusion or even, like, distress.
21:07
So counselors can play a key role in helping clients to
21:10
process what they've experienced.
21:13
And I think that's such an important piece.
21:15
Right. We, we help clients to make
21:18
meaning, you know, grounding insights and translating those
21:21
experiences into sustainable change.
21:24
Because recovery is not a moment, you know, it's a
21:27
process. And no substance, no matter how
21:29
powerful the substance, replaces that need for connection and
21:33
support and the ongoing care a client is going to require.
21:37
So true, so true. So where do we land with this in
21:40
the end? I guess the end for me is that
21:43
Abbogaine is not a miracle cure, but it's something that we
21:46
shouldn't ignore. You know, there's a lot of
21:49
emerging research that suggests it has potential, but we're
21:53
very, very far from understanding it.
21:55
I look forward to like a year or two years from now to see the
21:59
some of the research outcomes of these things that we're just now
22:03
approving here for clinical trials.
22:06
Yeah. And until there's, you know,
22:07
really a standardized protocol, some kind of medical oversight
22:11
or even long term studies, we have to be cautious.
22:15
And at the same time, the interest in ibogaine tells us
22:18
that it is something important to keep our eyes open to you.
22:21
Did that make sense? Yeah, it does to me.
22:24
And I think one thing that's important that it tells us that
22:27
people are searching for even deeper healing, you know, and,
22:31
and perhaps that we as a field need to continue evolving how we
22:35
address that need. Absolutely and if your accounts
22:39
are listening today, we encourage you to stay informed,
22:41
stay curious and stay grounded in your ethics has more unfolds
22:46
on ibogaine. So this is also a reminder that
22:48
those of us in helping professions need to remember
22:51
that it's OK not to have all the answers and it's good to learn
22:54
something new. I think that's incredibly
22:56
important. Don't try to just give you know,
22:59
answers just out of the blue or without any information, like do
23:02
some research, have an opinion. You'll necessarily need to share
23:06
that opinion because that can sway someone, but just being
23:10
open to answering those questions is really important.
23:13
Yeah, people, students are always asking me, like, have you
23:16
ever heard about, you know, like, because they've read an
23:18
article about something, you know, and it's like, well, no, I
23:21
haven't. I write it down and I go look up
23:23
information about it and it's like, that's really interesting.
23:26
But yeah, we also need to stay informed.
23:29
We need to always stay ethical and stay connected to the people
23:32
that we serve. You know, and, and if and if
23:34
you're a person that's out there exploring recovery options,
23:37
please know that you deserve safe, supported and and informed
23:42
care from a clinician who is willing to do all those things
23:46
non judge mentally. Yeah.
23:48
And it's important to remember, like we talked about that it's
23:51
there's no one-size-fits-all path to recovery.
23:55
And I don't think there will ever be, but there are always
23:58
paths forward. So healing is not one moment and
24:02
it's not one decision or even like 1 experience.
24:05
It's a process and you don't have to navigate it alone.
24:08
I think it's important that you don't navigate it alone.
24:11
Totally. And as we're wrapping up today's
24:14
conversation, what I hope is that people are walking away
24:18
with maybe not a simple answer, but maybe just a little bit of
24:21
an understanding of what this is, because topics like ibogaine
24:25
don't fit into neat categories. And I don't think that was our
24:29
goal. You know, it's not to convince
24:31
somebody that one side is right or wrong.
24:34
I think we were just kind of hoping that we could hold space
24:37
for both possibilities. Absolutely and.
24:41
We want to thank everyone for joining us today.
24:43
If you've heard something you believe someone you know might
24:45
benefit from, please share this episode.
24:48
We always appreciate it. If you rate, review, and follow
24:51
our podcast, you can also join the conversation we have on
24:54
social media. You can find the Life of Better
24:56
podcast on most social media platforms.
24:59
You can also find us on our website lifelivebetter.net.
25:03
Join us again next week for a new topic.
25:05
And don't forget that knowledge leads to a life.
25:08
Live better. Thank you for listening to the
25:10
Life Live Better podcast. Please subscribe.
25:12
Rate, review and share our show with others who think will enjoy
25:15
our content. You can also find us on most
25:17
social media platforms and our website lifelivebetter.net.
25:21
This episode was written by Paula Garland, edited by Joseph
25:24
Massey and recorded on Spotify. Information used in this episode
25:27
and other content data can be found in our show notes.
25:30
We look forward to seeing you again in two weeks.
25:32
Yay.