Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #690 Time to Ditch Homework?

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#690 Time to Ditch Homework? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, so, here's the thing.
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  Speaker 3: If you don't understand what happened in class, to come
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  Speaker 3: home and have to try to work it out without
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  Speaker 3: the teacher, that can be overwhelming.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 3: Hello, it's doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy Families
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  Speaker 3: dot com dot au.
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  Speaker 2: Here with Kylie, my.
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  Speaker 3: Wife and mum to our six children and Kylie a
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  Speaker 3: big conversation today.
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  Speaker 4: What today? Our topic is homework.
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  Speaker 3: Homework that I despise, homework that I think children just
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  Speaker 3: shouldn't be doing homework that I have very strong opinions about,
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  Speaker 3: asking me what I really think?
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  Speaker 4: You do have very strong opinions about this, And we
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  Speaker 4: did for a.
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  Speaker 2: Little bit from time to time. We had our moments
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  Speaker 2: on this, haven't we.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, So, can you just tell me what is the
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  Speaker 4: theory behind giving our kids homework? I mean literally, from
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  Speaker 4: the time our kids prep they're coming home with stuff
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  Speaker 4: that they have to achieve at home.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So what is that?
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  Speaker 4: What's the ideal behind it?
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  Speaker 3: Well, this is really interesting because homework has just always
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  Speaker 3: been a thing. Well, one day it became a thing
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  Speaker 3: at least, and that's kind of what we've always done since.
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  Speaker 3: And nobody really researched whether the homework was helpful or
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  Speaker 3: not for decades and decades after it started. But the
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  Speaker 3: theory is, there's work that you've got to get done,
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  Speaker 3: and we want to make sure that we're consolidating learning.
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  Speaker 3: So we're going to send it home so the kids
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  Speaker 3: can do an extra shift, do some overtime when you
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  Speaker 3: get home. Kids, we're not going to pay you for it,
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  Speaker 3: but let's get you to do some overtime. And the
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  Speaker 3: idea is, let's consolidate the learning. Let's make sure that
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  Speaker 3: you're not falling behind in class. It's that kind of thing,
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  Speaker 3: you know.
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  Speaker 4: I grew up watching a little house on the prairie
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  Speaker 4: and they used to go to school every day. They
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  Speaker 4: didn't go home with homework.
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  Speaker 2: No, in the olden days they didn't.
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  Speaker 3: And then someone obviously had the idea that sometimes if
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  Speaker 3: you don't finish your work at school, you need to
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  Speaker 3: take it home and finish it.
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  Speaker 2: And someone else had an.
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  Speaker 3: Idea that we need to make sure that you don't
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  Speaker 3: forget the stuff that we taught you. Today, so when
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  Speaker 3: you go home, you need to practice it. Repetition is
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  Speaker 3: the mother of all learning, which which is true. It's
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  Speaker 3: just that there's no really great evidence that we should
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  Speaker 3: be taking at home and repeating it at home when
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  Speaker 3: we can repeat it at school the next day.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, so you know how I feel about the researchy stuff.
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  Speaker 4: But you know, just give me a little bit of insight.
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  Speaker 4: What does the research actually tell us about homework and
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  Speaker 4: our kids well being?
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  Speaker 2: How do you feel about the research stuff?
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  Speaker 4: Ah, just tell me the real life stuff.
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  Speaker 3: Science is the best way for us to know whether
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  Speaker 3: stuff is working or not. There's so many things that
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  Speaker 3: as a result of science, we know that we otherwise
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  Speaker 3: wouldn't all these old wives tales that have been disproven
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  Speaker 3: because good science says, you know, if you change this,
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  Speaker 3: you actually discover whether or not it's really having an
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  Speaker 3: impact on stuff. So I don't think we can go
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  Speaker 3: poo pooing science.
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  Speaker 4: I'm not poopeeing science. I just have to listen to
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  Speaker 4: it every day. Okay, so you're tired of my Yeah,
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  Speaker 4: I am tired of your tirades. But there is some
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  Speaker 4: important stuff and I do learn lots.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, so when we look at the science around homework,
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  Speaker 3: there is well, I don't know how to say it politely,
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  Speaker 3: there is not really any strong evidence for really, there's
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  Speaker 3: no strong evidence from decades of research that homework on
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  Speaker 3: average is good for our kids. In fact, most of
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  Speaker 3: the research shows that it has either a neutral or
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  Speaker 3: a negative effect. Now I say not really because it's
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  Speaker 3: really hard to research this and to do it well.
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  Speaker 3: And one of the main reasons is because there's all
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  Speaker 3: different kinds of homework, and so for me, it's as
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  Speaker 3: much about whether homework is given or not as what
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  Speaker 3: kind of homework is given.
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  Speaker 2: You see, some activities.
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  Speaker 3: Are going to be really really good for our children's
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  Speaker 3: learning and for reinforcement and for consolidating, and some activities
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  Speaker 3: are just a waste of time. So on average, the
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  Speaker 3: scientific research shows and has done now for about thirty years,
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  Speaker 3: maybe thirty five years, that homework. Again, I'm saying on average. Oh,
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  Speaker 3: and I've got to say another really important thing here,
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  Speaker 3: homework on average for children up to around the age
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  Speaker 3: of twelve thirteen fourteen. So essentially what I say is
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  Speaker 3: primary school has zero benefit, literally zero benefit for the
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  Speaker 3: average kid getting the average amount of homework and doing
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  Speaker 3: the average sort of stuff for homework. It's a waste
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  Speaker 3: of time. There's no evidence to support it. Once the
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  Speaker 3: kids are in high school, there is some evidence that
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  Speaker 3: up to an hour in the early years and then
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  Speaker 3: up to two hours in their later high school years
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  Speaker 3: does have an It gives them advantage academically, so it's
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  Speaker 3: worth doing it once they're in high school. But for
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  Speaker 3: primary school kids just stop.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, So can you step me through what it is
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  Speaker 4: that you actually are really disgruntled about when it comes
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  Speaker 4: to homework. We're talking general terms here, Yeah, what the
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  Speaker 4: average school is working with in homework parameters? What is
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  Speaker 4: it that really, you know, kind of gets under your skin.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, So, first of all, the average school has a
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  Speaker 3: directive that's being given by the education department in their state,
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  Speaker 3: and I think every state in Australia and every territory
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  Speaker 3: in Australia has this that children have to have homework.
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  Speaker 3: A couple of years ago, Melbourne ran Victoria ran a
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  Speaker 3: parliamentary inquiry into homework and they didn't find any evidence
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  Speaker 3: to support the use of homework, at least in primary school.
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  Speaker 3: They're still doing it, by the way, they're still giving
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  Speaker 3: homework out. But the Parliamentary inquiry couldn't even justify the
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  Speaker 3: use of homework with the Education Department say no, no,
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  Speaker 3: we've got to keep on making sure that kids are
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  Speaker 3: doing homework. There's a handful of rebel principles around Australia
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  Speaker 3: that have said we're actually going to follow the evidence
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  Speaker 3: and the kids don't have to do it and guess
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  Speaker 3: what their kids are doing.
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  Speaker 2: Fine, students doing all right.
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  Speaker 3: But if I was to list my grievances with homework,
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  Speaker 3: what I'll do, Because I'm going to talk for way
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  Speaker 3: too long and get too carried away, I'm going to
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  Speaker 3: share the first couple, then we'll take a quick break
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  Speaker 3: and I'll share the rest of them and talk about
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  Speaker 3: what we should do as a result.
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  Speaker 2: So here we go.
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  Speaker 3: Number one, there's just no evidence to support it, especially
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  Speaker 3: in those primary school years, full stop, end of story.
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  Speaker 3: If we're going to be science driven, we need to
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  Speaker 3: actually look at what the science says, and the science
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  Speaker 3: says it's pointless for kids who are in primary school period.
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  Speaker 2: So what about their.
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  Speaker 4: Parent who's got a child who's really struggling with their mass,
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  Speaker 4: for instance, and they decide to hire a tutor to
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  Speaker 4: come and Hauttering.
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  Speaker 3: There's a different process than homework. Okay, So if I'm
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  Speaker 3: going to put my children into a tutoring class, that
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  Speaker 3: means that they're going to be doing deliberate practice with
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  Speaker 3: a qualified trainer or teacher who is going to guide
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  Speaker 3: them and improve them. That's kind of like saying, i
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  Speaker 3: want my children to learn the piano, but I'm never
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  Speaker 3: going to.
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  Speaker 2: Ask them to do any practice.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, we need them to have a piano teacher so
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  Speaker 3: that teacher can help them to get better. So I've
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  Speaker 3: got a child who is falling behind, I decided to
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  Speaker 3: put them in tutoring. That's a deliberate form of practice
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  Speaker 3: and teaching with a qualified instructor that's going to help them.
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  Speaker 3: That's totally different to here's some homework, go home, fill
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  Speaker 3: in the homework matrix, you know, fill in the three
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  Speaker 3: of the boxes in our grid. Make sure you finish
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  Speaker 3: this worksheet. Totally different kind of homework. Let's talk about
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  Speaker 3: the other reasons that I'm not a fan of homework.
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  Speaker 3: In just a second.
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  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now, and today we're
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  Speaker 4: talking about a really hot button topic, homework.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm not sounding happy.
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  Speaker 4: You're not happy. So we've already discussed that there is
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  Speaker 4: no research to support children under the age of twelve, thirteen,
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  Speaker 4: even up to fourteen, actually getting any significant benefits out
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  Speaker 4: of doing homework.
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  Speaker 3: Any academic benefit at all. In fact, it's neutral, if
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  Speaker 3: not negative, on average. Now I've got a handful of
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  Speaker 3: other reasons that I'm anti homework. I'm going to run
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  Speaker 3: through them pretty quickly.
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  Speaker 4: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: Number one, it adds to my workload as a parent, definitely,
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  Speaker 3: I've got stuff going on.
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  Speaker 4: And I know that when you know, I sit around
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  Speaker 4: with mums having a coffee, they feel really really stretched
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  Speaker 4: by this. Often because I.
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  Speaker 3: Talked to some mums and dads who will do a
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  Speaker 3: couple of hours of homework with their children after school
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  Speaker 3: and after work and the kids are like eight years old.
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  Speaker 2: Wow.
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  Speaker 3: And you know else, The reason it takes them two
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  Speaker 3: hours is because the parents don't know how to do the.
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  Speaker 4: I think that's why you really don't like homework, how
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  Speaker 4: to do it.
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  Speaker 3: Every time my kids come home with a c I'm like,
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  Speaker 3: oh gosh, I don't know how I ever got a PhD.
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  Speaker 3: It's really stressful for a lot of kids, like No,
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  Speaker 3: I'm fine with children being uncomfortable, and I'm absolutely for
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  Speaker 3: children doing things that are hard and pushing themselves.
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  Speaker 2: So here's the thing.
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  Speaker 3: If you don't understand what happened in class to come
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  Speaker 3: home and have to try to work it out without
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  Speaker 3: the teacher, that can be overwhelming for the majority of children.
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  Speaker 3: And it's not what education is meant to be about.
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  Speaker 4: Well, especially when mum and dad try to teach you
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  Speaker 4: the archaic way speak.
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  Speaker 3: It was different from the eighties, back in the nineties,
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  Speaker 3: whatever it was when we were kids. I mean, I
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  Speaker 3: was a product of early nineteen eighties primary schooling. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and they do everything differently today than how they did
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  Speaker 3: it when I was a kid. So it's not fair
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  Speaker 3: for the children. It's also really hard on the parents.
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  Speaker 3: But the other thing is, and we've watched this with
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  Speaker 3: some of our kids, once they have got it figured
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  Speaker 3: out in class, coming home and it's just boring, Like
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  Speaker 3: they sit there and they're so bored, and it really
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  Speaker 3: extinguishes that flame of curiosity when you're just doing boring stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Next thing, it adds to teachers loads.
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  Speaker 3: I mean I work in around schools all the time
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  Speaker 3: now and I am astounded at how hard teachers work
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  Speaker 3: compared to what they were doing back in the eighties.
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  Speaker 3: Not that I want to belittle what teachers did back then,
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  Speaker 3: but as a comparison, the expectation on teachers today is
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  Speaker 3: extraordinary compared to back then. And the last thing that
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  Speaker 3: they need to be worried about is whether or not
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  Speaker 3: homework got done or whether the dog ate it.
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  Speaker 4: And I know that from experience. When we've kind of,
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  Speaker 4: you know, shared our views on homework and got a
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  Speaker 4: pardon for each of our children, you can see the
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  Speaker 4: relief in their faces.
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  Speaker 2: One less child they've got to worry about. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So, I think the last couple of reasons that I'm
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  Speaker 3: anti homework creates conflict at home, you know, because a
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  Speaker 3: child doesn't want to do it because they are feeling unmotivated,
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  Speaker 3: or they are bored, or they're struggling, and then the
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  Speaker 3: parents are like, you've got to do your homework, and
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  Speaker 3: next thing, you know that there's this big conflict in
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  Speaker 3: the kitchen over whether or not the home work's going
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  Speaker 3: to get done. One of my biggest issues, though, is
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  Speaker 3: that homework leaves less time for the important stuff.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that that's where I really struggle with
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  Speaker 4: homework policy is just when my kids come home, I
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  Speaker 4: try so hard to be available to them, and yet
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  Speaker 4: I'm going to spend half my afternoon staring at paperwork.
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  Speaker 3: Well not at our house, thank you very much, missus
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  Speaker 3: Happy families. But let me just add something on this though.
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  Speaker 3: If parents are going to let their kids just sit
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  Speaker 3: in front of video games and consume screens and do nothing,
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  Speaker 3: then I probably would rather that they were doing homework.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, that's what I would say about that, because
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  Speaker 3: I want children to be either having some good quality
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  Speaker 3: downtime or using their brains, you know, being efficient, learning, growing, developing,
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  Speaker 3: doing something like that. That's what childhood is kind of for.
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  Speaker 3: But I don't think either of them are really good alternatives.
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  Speaker 3: I'd rather than be doing their art or their music,
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  Speaker 3: or their drama, or their sport or stands in the backyard, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: going for aus, we'men, jumping on the trampoline, actually connecting
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  Speaker 3: with their family, riding the bike down the street to
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  Speaker 3: catch up with a friend. Those are the kinds of
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  Speaker 3: things that I want to see kids doing in the afternoon.
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  Speaker 3: Going to the grocery store with mum to buy the
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  Speaker 3: groceries for tonight.
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  Speaker 2: That's what I think is far more valuable.
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  Speaker 3: That's the important stuff that they could be doing, and
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  Speaker 3: sometimes homework gets in the way of that.
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  Speaker 2: And lastly, it's just.
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  Speaker 3: So generally uninspiring, like goly who wants to do it?
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  Speaker 2: So that's why I'm against it.
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  Speaker 4: That's a really great list, and it's given me some
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  Speaker 4: food for thought. And I generally agree with everything that
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  Speaker 4: you're saying. In my experience, most of the homework that's
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  Speaker 4: coming home with our children takes them about ten or
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  Speaker 4: fifteen minutes. And I just I don't see the point
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  Speaker 4: of rocking the boat if it's really not adding anngs
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  Speaker 4: to the overall running of my house.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I guess I've kind of softened my attitude even
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  Speaker 3: though I've gone on this great big rant today, because
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  Speaker 3: of two things. First of all, most of the time,
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  Speaker 3: our kids have been happy to do it, even though
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  Speaker 3: I'm telling them not to. They they're like that it's
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  Speaker 3: just easier if I do it, if they actually sit
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  Speaker 3: down and world.
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  Speaker 4: And they do. They feel ostracized, whether it be by
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: their peers or their teachers at times when even though
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  Speaker 4: they have been given that pardon to not do it.
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  Speaker 4: And so yeah, I just I feel like it's really
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  Speaker 4: important that, you know, we kind of run this through
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  Speaker 4: our own filters and work out what's going to work
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  Speaker 4: best for us and our children.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, In terms of rocking the boat, you know, I
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  Speaker 3: think that if there's no evidence for something and it's
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: causing distress, challenge and difficulty in the family, it's worth
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  Speaker 3: rocking the boat.
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  Speaker 4: It's worth So if it was causing distress, then I
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: would one hundred percent rock the boat. But in most
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: cases our children have actually not been too worried whether they.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: Do it or not.
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  Speaker 2: Now I need to I need to highlight a couple
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: of things.
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  Speaker 3: First of all, the confession, I've definitely softened my stance.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: The reason is not only because some kids just like
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: doing homework, but also we're talking about averages, right, So
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: on average it doesn't help. On average, it's actually neutral
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: or even harmful. But not every child is average, which
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: means that in some cases homework might actually be helpful.
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  Speaker 3: And I do say this tentatively because I think any
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: differences are probably going to be very, very small, and
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: they might come at substantial costs. But you know, sometimes
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: homework can help. There are a couple of kinds of
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  Speaker 3: homework that I really do encourage.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: Yes, I would love you to share that, because they
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: one hundred percent of things that we support in our
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: home and have made a significant difference in our children's education.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Number One. Reading. You cannot read to your kids enough.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: You cannot get them to read to you enough. Reading, reading, reading.
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  Speaker 3: Of all of the things that we've talked about today,
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  Speaker 3: homework has no evidence to support it in primary school.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: But reading. I don't see reading as homework. I see
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: reading as just what you do because humans read, We
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  Speaker 3: know how to read, and reading is good for our learning,
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  Speaker 3: and we love to read.
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  Speaker 2: We don't do at homework.
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  Speaker 3: We don't fill in the reading wheel and say our
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: read for twenty minutes.
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  Speaker 2: We just read.
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  Speaker 3: And the research shows that the more our kids read,
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  Speaker 3: the better they're likely to do academically. That's the typical outcome.
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  Speaker 3: Reading is so strongly associated with great academic outcomes, with curiosity,
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: with learning, with openness and new experiences, with conscientiousness. This
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  Speaker 3: is the number one thing that I would encourage parents
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: to do.
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  Speaker 4: And we love reading with our kids. It's one of
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  Speaker 4: the highlights of our days to just kind of cuddle
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: up at the end of the night and read a book.
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  Speaker 3: Second thing projects. If the kids are interested in something,
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: then turn on the computer and let them learn, let
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: them do projects, let them create, let them connect, let
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: them develop their understanding of stuff. There's loads, again, loads
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: of research that shows that when children are self directed
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: and autonomous in their learning, and they're learning about stuff
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: that they actually care about, they're going to do better.
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  Speaker 3: And the third thing, I just reckon, do stuff together.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: And when you're doing stuff, count or spell or read,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: give the children an opportunity to run down the supermarket
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: aisle and do something. You know, do jobs and chores
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: for you, cleaning up around the house, be involved in
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: family life. I don't see that as homework though. I
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: see that as just living a whole and fulfilling childhood.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: So that's my homework speak.
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: So take home message for today is there is no
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: evidence that.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Homework helps in primary school.
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: In primary school, yes, but one thing that does definitely
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: make a huge difference to your children all round is reading, YEP,
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: reading and self directed learning. And if you can tap
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: into those areas, your child is just going to thrive.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and hopefully if you decide that you want to
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: talk to your your children's teachers, about it. You won't
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: be rocking the boat too much. I think it's a
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: worthwhile conversation because it's not great for our kids. If
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: your kids are happy doing their homework, just leave them be.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: We really hope that this is answered a few questions.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: We will link to the homework letter in the show notes.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: You can find the homework letter just by typing in
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: Justin Colson homework letter on Google, but we'll linked to
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: it in the show notes as well, and we hope
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: that it's given you more question, no more answers than questions.
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: I hope there's no more question.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: Maybe I need to do my homework on how to
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: write an outro. The Heavy Families podcast is produced by
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Justin Rowland from Bridge Media.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: Tomorrow on the podcast, really excited to have a conversation
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: with the one and only Gabby Stroud.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Gabby is an
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: Author of a couple of fabulous books, and we're going
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: to talk about some old school stuff, especially having a
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: great relationship with your teacher as the school year fires up.