Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / The Post Divorce Glow Up - Let's Call It What It Really Is

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The Post Divorce Glow Up - Let's Call It What It Really Is · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, a podcast covering all things relationships, separation and divorce.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: How to create healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships without sacrificing any part of yourself.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Supporting anyone feeling challenged in their relationship or marriage, these are confidential conversations for you if you're navigating separation, divorce or reorganising life afterwards.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Decide whether to stay or leave a relationship or marriage, divorce with less drama, and consciously choose what's next for you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Warrentry people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this week's episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, and today I am really excited to be welcoming Emma Wright, the feminist health coach, to the podcast.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Emma is a certified cognitive behavioural coach, intuitive eating coach, and has a master's degree based in feminist theory.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: She is the author of Body Confident.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: After years of trying to feel better by being thinner and controlling what she ate, she decided to put that behind her and learn to feel good on the inside, regardless of how her body looked on the outside.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: That led to living a much fuller life, and so she became a coach to help other high-achieving, resourceful women do the same.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Emma also has her own podcast, Talking with Emma, and I will put a link in the show notes to my conversation with Emma on her podcast.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: But now let's go.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome Emma to the podcast.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me, Sally Ann.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I am delighted to be here.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Some like slipping back into an old conversation that we just recently had, hey?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I always like to start with a little bit of background for listeners.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So firstly, can you share and share as much or as little as you're comfortable sharing a little bit about your relationship story?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: My relationship story.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I um I didn't meet my now husband until I was um 39, almost 40.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was single until then, and there's and we'll go into this as we talk, I'm sure a lot of that had to do with how I felt about my body.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then I met my husband, and we had two kids very, very quickly.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I had two kids in my early 40s, and we got married when I was um seven or eight years into my relationship with my husband, and because it's pertinent to this conversation, we went through a very, very rocky stage in our relationship, which I call Sally Ann, my kind of waking up to knowing I'm allowed to have a better relationship than I was currently experiencing.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: That took a lot of conversations with people um who I trusted, people who saw my value in it as let me let me rephrase that.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: People who believed in me more than I believed in myself at the time.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just knew I needed to have something better than what I had.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And for my particular story, that led to us having a much better relationship.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: We went, we we went through that hard time and he also decided or became aware of wanting something much, much better for himself as well.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it just so happened that we wanted to do that together.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where we're at, where we are at the moment, a very, very different place to how we first met each other.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for sharing.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's nice to hear, and I know listeners will appreciate hearing that there is a way through that rocky, shadowy time for some couples.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it doesn't have to mean that you burn it all down.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, it doesn't.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so so grateful for getting to that place where I was willing to leave, not because I thought that was my only place, but because that was me being able to stand up for myself.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and the particular thing that I had to get past was because I had been single until I was 39, I didn't know that I was it was okay for me to want more.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that meant that it was either I suffer through what I'm suffering through or never having anything else again.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you do does that make sense that that absolutely where I have to grapple with that?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, we're talking was talking over you that this is as good as it's gonna get.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you take this or or nothing.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let's shift the conversation to your work.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would love you to share what you do, and always, I think more interestingly, a little bit of why.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: What led you to become a health and well-being coach?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or the feminist health coach.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my yeah, yeah, my title, the feminist health coach is what I call myself, and that does often require a little bit of explanation.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: I am a health coach.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also trained in cognitive behavioral therapy, as you said.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the reason I call myself a feminist health coach is I realized that we can have a, or from my own perspective, I could learn to have a better relationship with food.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: I could learn to reconnect with my body's um appetite and learn to trust myself to eat what was right for me, regardless of what anyone else was doing.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: I could learn to appreciate my body for what it does, which is a big part of healing your relationship with your body.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: But there was this part that was missing for me for quite a long time, which was understanding the wider context in which bodies are talked about in our culture.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when I actually started to learn that the beliefs I had, the thoughts, the feelings, the actions I took towards my body came, those patterns really started as an infant.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like the first things my mother said to me, not because she was intending anything, but her mother had said to her, the messages I got from books, the messages I saw in movies, the way I heard women talk to each other over coffees, all had at their heart this idea that our value is related to how we look.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that it is our job as a woman to make sure that we appear valuable by making our body fit the way it's supposed to look.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Supposed to in inverted commas, right?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Supposed to inverted commas, and that a way a fantastic way to keep women distracted from who we are, from trusting ourselves, from believing in ourselves, is to focus our attention with kind of a lot of energy on fixing something that was never broken in the first place.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're trying to fix something that is never that is not actually broken, there's always something else to fix.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you lose the five pounds and then it's and then it's oh, I just get my face, you know, now there's wrinkles, oh now there's droopy bits, now I'm not strong enough, now I'm not eating perfectly enough.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's always another thing to get because we're trained as women to believe our bodies are inherently not good enough.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much I could say to that.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you for explaining that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, something I find really fascinating, and this came up when we spoke on your podcast, about our two worlds, is that I really feel that we are working with essentially the same person, the same woman.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And in my work, she's capable, successful, she's built a great life, she's ticked all the boxes, and yet she doesn't feel like she's in a life or a relationship that really sees her, holds space for her, um, lights her up.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of suspect that she's the same client that you work with.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if if you think that's true, what do you think is go actually going underneath going on underneath for that woman, whether she's working with you, whether she's working with me?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is a brilliant question, Sally, because yes, absolutely.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think she is someone who relates to your work, is going to relate to my work.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about those the relationship we're taught to have with our body from a very young age.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: If we look at this from a feminist perspective, we can look at how ultimately we're set up as women to distrust ourselves.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're meant to trust the expert.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we're meant to trust someone else to tell us what is right for us.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this starts very young by being told that um being praised and being given a lot of accolade for being good and looking good.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're so gorgeous, what a gorgeous little girl you've got.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that, and oh, isn't she good?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: What a good girl you are, da-da-da, when we perform right.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens is we stop trusting ourselves to the point where someone says, your body's you someone says to you, you can lose five pounds by eating the correct way, eating the right food, the healthy food, the way you should eat.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you don't trust yourself because your appetite desires this and that, which are not on the good food list, right?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you start to go, oh, of course I can't trust my appetite.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: It makes perfect sense that someone else should know what I should eat better than me, because we've been taught our whole life that we shouldn't trust ourselves.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we trot off and we follow that advice.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it gets to being in a relationship, and this is what I had to grapple with myself, could I really trust my own inner quietness, my own inner voice that said, Emma, you want more than this.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: You want to be you want more connection with the person you live with than you're currently having.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it took me a long time to figure out I could trust myself to ask for that.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those two things, Dalianne, are very connected.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: They are a woman who actually knows she's very capable.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: She's run organizations, she's had a family, she can get shit done, kind of a person.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But in the quietness of herself, she still has that question, can I trust myself?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the question people come to me with.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And does they think what they've got is an emotional eating problem, and they often say to me, I've got everything else in my life works out, but I just can't figure out why I can't get this.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I bet you hear that as well, Celia.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Do you hear that?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking, you are speaking about my every one of my clients, every single one.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it that doesn't matter whether she's still in a relationship that she's quietly questioning, or she's out the other side and looking back and questioning, it comes down to the capacity to go quiet and to listen and to really trust that inner voice, that inner, I often call it the inner knowing, because you already know.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you're asking a question, you already know the answer.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: You already know.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you're the question that you're asking is, um, am I worthy of, or is there more for me?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we ask, am I worthy of?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's a bit too scary, but is there more than just this mediocre relationship, or is there ever going to be someone else out there for me?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Underlying that is um oh God.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think I know what so well, I just had a thought there, Sally and as you were saying that, and I think both of what you're talking about and what I'm talking about, we can connect back to an internal validation of ourselves versus an external validation of ourself.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And this describes what a feminist health coach is, really, because women are socialized to need external validation.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: We feel as if we've been told over and over again in all sorts of different ways that our value resides in what other people think of us.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know, like so the biggest compliment we get is, oh my God, you're looking so gorgeous, as if how we look to you is our biggest value.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then so we're outsourcing how we feel about ourselves to someone else's opinion.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So when we are faced with listening to their own inner voice, or in my case, listening to our own appetite, to our own desire, to our own what our body is telling us it needs or wants, it can feel very um unsettling, like how come I can't do this thing when I'm so good at doing all this other thing?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're very good at doing those things where we can get the external recognition.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we can juggle a million balls, we can, you know, do really well, you know, all the things.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's circumspect back to what you said.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: You circles right back to what you said earlier, in you know, that we're taught from such a young age, you're a good girl.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: That externalizing of okay, well, if I do X, whatever it is, if I stay in the marriage, or if I look a certain way, or if I get the right job, then I'm gonna be fine.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: But what that does is conditions us out of listening to our own inner voice and knowing.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: To the extent when you start to in in my particular world, to the extent we can't even hear our own hunger.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like we can't, or or we can't even so many women come to me too with exhaustion, and they can't even really hear their need to rest because they're being so good and going and doing all the things that we're taught and we're shown, and now we see all the perfect people on Instagram doing.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: I can't listen to what is it do I need?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and trust that I can see you're nodding your head.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you obviously hear this, yes, hear it all the time, and also I'm nodding because um, you know, hand on heart, guilty, guilty at times, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: We and I think we all we all want to see and be perfect, but we're not, right?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not, and you know, I need to remind myself sometimes, just like I do with clients, that breast is sacred, you don't have to earn it, you know, and listen to listen to what your body is asking you to do, and navigating relationship challenges, separation, divorce, parenting afterwards, it's bloody hard, it's really, really hard.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be hard to put down the to-do list and rest, but it's also necessary.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's interesting that you see the same.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I I see absolutely the same.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and and to answer your one of your very first questions, I know we we're kind of going around the circling back to that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Why I did why I do what I do is because the impact on me of learning what I have learnt, I it was so profound in terms of how I am able to um live to my own values now compared to where I was, that I was it's like a fire got lit in under me in terms of I want to share this with other.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just want other women to listen to themselves, to trust themselves, to start feeling like they've got to fix themselves all the time and have that internal and um understanding of themselves.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not easier actually to live like it's not easier, and my life is way less perfect than it was because my I and I and I say this a lot is I feel like my problems are better and bigger.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Problems aren't how do I keep myself small and squished down, and how do I follow the diet perfectly, and how do I get into that smaller size of genes, and how do I try and pretend that I'm fine in my marriage?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's one kind of a soul-destroying problem, but it's also quite a small problem, you know.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like now that I can learn to start to trust myself, it's like, okay, how do I show up in the world?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: How do I get past that internal um indoctrination of being of having to worry about what other people think of me?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: How do I grow past that?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do I face that challenge?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's in some ways a lot scarier, but so much better way to live.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely scarier, definitely harder, but also way more liberating.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Liberating is the word.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about that woman who starts to listen, right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: The woman who intellectually knows that she deserves more, but can't quite act on that knowing, or the client who leaves a relationship's being left, and then she spirals and doubts everything about herself.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about how she shows up after perhaps after a relationship ends.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is a wordy, waffly kind of question because I don't quite know what I'm asking.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: But if her body has let's talk about the woman after a relationship, right?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: She's starting to listen to herself, she's hearing the niggle, but then she shuts it down.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is a bit too scary.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like we just talked about, it's a bit too scary.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say to her?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are you talking about let's just uh just so that I'm sorry, sorry.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: We've ended a relationship.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yeah.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And are you saying she's starting to want to trust her body, or is she starting to want to date, or what's what's the let's put a little context?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, let's put a little context about it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe she's starting to want to date, she's starting to listen to her inner knowing a little bit, but it's a bit scary.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe she's out of a long-term relationship, maybe it was 10-15 years, and the body that she's in, living in and with now has changed because it does, right?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, what would you how would you speak to her?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to I I want to offer something that I that I use almost every day for myself, and uh and a conversation that I would have with a client in this exact situation.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And what I would begin by saying is take a moment to acknowledge what you're actually feeling, not what you want to feel like.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know we all want to feel excited and confident and joyful, but just take a moment to acknowledge to yourself how am I actually feeling?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if that answer to that is I'm um feeling scared or I'm feeling upset, or I can and it might even be if you're at the start of start, if you're at the beginning of learning how to actually know what you feel, because for some of us and for many women I work with, actually knowing what you feel is a learning in itself, because as women, we get taught to squash that shit down, you know, because that's part of the good girl as well, right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Big emotions, oh no, not around here, you know, shove that down.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: So one way you can do this, if you're starting to notice that your brain is going, oh, I'm feeling, you know, I'm anxious about my body and one thing you can do is just take a moment and you can go, what literal sensations have I got?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: In my body.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I might say to you, Stally Ann, sitting here having this conversation, what literal sensations have you got in your body?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit of a churny tummy, a bit of anger, you know, bit of nervous because you know, I'm what, three-ish years out of a long-term relationship, and you know, maybe this question might have been for me.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, but a body that's different from when it what it was back in the day.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, a bit of oh, bit of butterflies in the tummy.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Bit of butterflies in the tummy and churning, right?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that in itself connects you to your body.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it takes you out of the future and it just brings you into the present.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Go, okay, I've got butterflies in my tummy.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I might say, okay, so let's let's first of all have some compassion for the butterflies.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because so often we want to go straight past this bit, right?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: We just want to get to where we feel better.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Having compassion for the butterflies for me is going, so you you you can see me, Sally Amber.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: For the listener, I've just put my hand on my chest and I've just gone, okay, it makes sense that I would have butterflies in my tummy when I think about my body having changed.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: It makes sense I would have butterflies in my tummy when I think about my body changing because women's bodies in our culture are not supposed to change.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna have compassion for myself for having feelings about that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not trying to change the whole culture, but just acknowledging that I have feelings for myself.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: How does that feel when you say that to yourself, Sally Ann?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's um I love that you kind of take it broader.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: How does it feel?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: It settles the it does, it settles the butterflies, obviously.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not obviously, because um, it settles the butterflies, but I love that you, as I said, take it broader.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's it makes sense.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you meet yourself where you are, right?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, just sit with it.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: It makes sense, it's okay.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: It makes sense that it's okay.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Don't make it wrong, it just is.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next question, and and and this might take a we won't uh I won't ask you to answer this now because this next question can take a minute, you know, it might be something you want to think about, come back to.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: You might start to say, okay, so if we know that our emotions come from the beliefs and thoughts and ideas we have about something, we might start to say to ourselves, what belief have I got about my body?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and it might be something like, you know, for me, when I um when I was in this grappling, should I stay, should I, you know, starting to wake up to my own quiet questioning, I had thoughts in there like, oh, no one will ever, you know, you know, now that I'm 50 odd, God, who would want this?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Those kind of questions, right?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started to sorry, I think that that is regardless of age.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, so so for every single one of my female or female identifying clients, 100%.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: We all have these, so so it's and then we start to and then so start to get really clear about what thoughts is my brain thinking.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because we weren't born with those thoughts, but we think them so often they seem true.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's the only reason something seems true, is because we think it all over and over and over again.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Just feels really familiar, like an old pair of pajamas, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and we just think it's true, but it's generating this anxiety and upset in us, and shame actually, more than anything, but emotion in us, and so we can start to go, oh, what's those what what thoughts have I got?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm I'm I'm I'm having thoughts about my body like it's it's a shit body, and then which I'm sure no listener can relate to, but then we can start to if you can actually identify the thought, then the question is is that a thought I want to keep believing?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: If we don't even take the time to understand what the actual thought is, then we can't ask ourselves that question.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to believe that?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is that serving me?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Knowing that, and this can take a bit of work, but knowing that that thought is not a fact, it's not a fact that my body is shit.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: That is just a belief I have about my body that has come from all those movies I've watched where it's only a certain type of girl gets the guy, you know, or all the messages I've heard where someone loses weight and I hear all the compliments that person gets in the office.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Jolene, you're looking amazing.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, you're so great.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: All of these messages reinforce the idea that when you look a certain way, then you're acceptable.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how many movies have we seen where the bigger girl loses weight and suddenly um relationships come flooding at her?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like we, you know, like and that just so it's reinforced over and over and over again.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes sense, and we can have that compassion for ourselves as well.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: It makes sense, my brain thinks these thoughts.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And as you were saying, um, you know, I my body is shit.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that as a as a thought process or as a belief, um, the equivalent for my clients is I am shit.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I am shit at relationships, or I'm shit at choosing partners, or I am shit at so it's the same, it's just the same.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're dumping on ourselves like we're not shit.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're not we're not shit.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's exactly the same.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we've just we didn't choose that thought with you know, we we we didn't consciously sit down and weigh up all the evidence and go, yes, actually that is true.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna think the truth.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: That thought just becomes true for us without us ever uh choosing it.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so that reframe of is this something I actually want to continue believing?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: I and I throw in is that is believing that allowing me to live the life aligned with the value, aligned with my values or live the life that I really want to be living.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love that word allowed, Sally Ann.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for saying that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes my clients have to start with I'm allowed to change my beliefs.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we even I'm allowed to believe that I'm not shit or my relationship with food is not shit.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm actually allowed to believe that.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that comes definitely with um perimenopause and getting through to that no fucks to give stage, but not all of my listeners are there yet.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, actually believing or choosing not to believe the I'm shit story.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned just before, and I like I almost wanted to jump in and go, let's stay here, but I'm coming back to it.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, please.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: The the girl in the movie who drops 10 kilos and immediately is flooded with dates.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: This happens post-divorce, and it's something I see a lot in my world.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I suspect you're gonna have a lot of really cool stuff to say about it.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there seems often this enormous cultural social media pressure, and sometimes even, you know, well-meaning encouragement from friends or family for a woman coming out of a relationship to focus on her body, get fit, lose weight, chop her hair off, get a new look, personal stylist.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I'm against personal stylists, one of my best friends is personal stylist, the glow up, the post-divorce glow up, right?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And on the surface, this can look like empowerment.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: What do you actually see when you look at that more closely?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Throw your feminist health over that thinking.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, listeners, if you if you were seeing a visual of this, you would have seen me lean right into this.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, I've got things to say about this, Sally Ann.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, I want to acknowledge that for almost all women, and and there's there's always exceptions, and people who identify as women, we have all at some stage in our lives experienced positive, have had a very powerful positive experience when our appearance has changed and we have got recognition for it.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what's actually happening, I believe, in that moment is that is reinforcing to us the idea that our external appearance matters.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a lived experience, a nervous system level experience of oh my goodness, I'm getting this praise, I'm getting this validation.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to acknowledge how as a human being that feels good.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels good for a very, very specific reason, I think.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Not because our body is better, it's got actually nothing to do with our body, it feels good because it signals to us a sense of belonging.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when you marry a sense of a visual, visceral, not visual, a visceral, experiential sense of belonging and connection, you want more of that.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: We are wired up as a species to not only feel good when we have a when we have acknowledgement of our belonging, we are wired up to want more of it.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important to us to belong.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: But what I've come to believe is it's a really it's it's a really vicious cycle because our sense of belonging then becomes intrinsically connected to our external validation.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that external validation gets reinforced on a very deep nervous system level.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to have compassion for ourselves that we did have that experience and it was really felt really good.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so it makes sense that we would want more of it, and it would also make sense that we think it is about how we look rather than how we belong.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if we start to separate those two things, I had a powerful positive experience around the idea of belonging rather than I had a powerful experience because of how I looked, then you can start to ask yourself: do I want to belong because of how I look?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the kind of belonging I'm after?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to feel like I'm valued and people are excited to see me and it's awesome because I fit a smaller size of jeans?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what I want to hook my belonging to for the rest of my life?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or do I want to belong because they know who I am?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now I don't know about you, Sally Ann, but the size of my jeans has got zero fucking shit to do with who I am.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, excuse my language, but I have got to the point where I'm like, are you kidding me?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have no interest in belonging for how I look.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: When you were speaking about it, I was thinking, I want to belong because of what I think, what I believe, what I say, how I make other people feel, and how and and and that's not people pleasing.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean that at all.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the connection and the and the going deep.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like and going deep means it's not surface, so it's not external.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and and when we have a belonging, that means we can show up with our bed face and our you know, and our hair not done, and our and people still love seeing us, and we've put on five pounds, and we did, you know, whatever it is, and we still feel like we're loved and we're seen and we're understood, then we can have fun with our parents.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's no longer we can't leave the house unless we look great.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's more like I could actually just enjoy getting dressed, no matter what size your body is.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I've segued a little bit into you know having fun with how you look, but but but when we come out of a relationship and we get we we start to notice that um attention and sense of connection with belonging, there is an opportunity for us to acknowledge that it's feeling good because of our look, and also know that that's not the kind of belonging that we really want if that is true.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want to take it a little bit deeper because I'm just wondering here is there a difference between uh the woman who genuinely wants to feel good in her body and maybe that does mean changing the number on the scales.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a difference between her, the woman who genuinely wants to feel good in her body, particularly after a major life transition, like we're talking about, and one, a woman who is maybe I don't know if this is the right terminology, you can perhaps help me, using her body as a place to redirect pain or perform the recovery for the outside world.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: And how would we tell, how would a listener tell the difference or tell them tell them apart if that's what she's wondering or feeling?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, uh another sensational question.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard for women, I think, to separate those two things out.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it requires if you want to understand whether you are genuinely after feeling good in your body or wanting to feel like you belong via um via validation that you look good, it's really, really hard to understand what's at play because of that lived experience we've had of feeling good when we look good.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that we can mistakenly think that that feeling we have in our body of getting of getting the compliments, of getting the validation, of whether it's that that's making us feel good or whether we actually feel good.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of clients have said to me, and I know this for myself as well, is we can feel a lot better in our body at the same time as it not being as it at the same time as not getting the compliments and not and putting on weight, for example, and still feeling better in our body, but that takes a long time to get to there.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of unhappiness.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: So when I first started gaining weight, because I decided to stop leaving my appetite up to someone else and trying to control it and fix it and manage it and get my food right, and started to listen to what my body actually wanted, which was more food than I thought I should be eating.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: As I started to gain weight during that, it became very, very hard for me to know how I felt in my body until I had actually dealt with the what I would call internalized um fat phobia, because the shame of it was something that felt so uncomfortable.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I was actually uncomfortable in my body, but I was uncomfortable in my shame, not in my body.
• 39:48
  unknown: Wow.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: So once we take the shame of our body away, and when I say that, I make that sound really easy.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we all know that that's one of the hardest things in the world because we have to actually learn how to how to feel it and get and and learn how to give ourselves what we need so that that shame can start to heal.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not a that's not just a easy thing to do.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: But once we do that, then we can actually start to go, what, what does my body feel actually feel good?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do I actually does that answer your question?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's map it's a massive question, I know.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a like, okay, are we doing a are we are we writing a PhD thesis here or are we yeah, yeah, it's a huge question.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder have you got anything else to I mean god goodness, this is this is going to open a massive can of worms.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: What else would you say to listeners about our the intertwined relationship between our body, our thoughts and beliefs and feelings about our body and our shame?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: So making a connection between our thoughts and our beliefs about our body and our shame.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think one of the first things that I started to understand in myself and doing this work and training to do this work is that almost every woman feels shame about her body.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: That there's there's very few that come through a patriarchal system and and go, no, I don't know what you're talking about.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's I've never I have actually met some women who are like that, and it's almost surprising, right?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's it's remarkable.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And listeners can't couldn't have seen it, but as you were saying that, I pulled a very sad face because it really it actually breaks my heart.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the cost.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it feels like it breaks my heart.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's right.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and and this is the cost of using our bodies to control, you know, getting getting women to think that their bodies are inherently bad, and no individual is sitting down and deciding to do this, it's just the cultural structures and you know that have been passed down and all that kind of stuff.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: But when when our value is meant to be based on what other people think of us, and then we start out on this journey of trying to fix ourselves in a way that is never ever doable, there's always something else that's because then you know underneath it all is a belief that our bodies are bad and need fixing that, of course, leads to shame.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: That that that in itself is causes a sense of shame in us.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, given we live in a culture that that has that expectation of it, it's it's highly unusual for a woman to come through that and and not feel shame about her body.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: So when we start to understand that, we can then start to go and have that compassion again.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it makes sense.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have shame.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not something again, because it because it's very easy with our good girl conditioning and our and our desire to you know be perfectionists and all this kind of stuff, to learn that we have shame and then feel shame that we've got shame.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that we haven't somehow, because we're, you know, and I don't know, I'm assuming with your um clients as well, very curious about ourselves.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of us have already done therapy and we've tried, you know, we care about our well being.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, so the fact that we haven't arrived at perfection yet is sort of the sense of, you know, so
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Shame upon shame.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: What and it's like, what the hell?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good at all the things, and I should be good at this, and I'm not, and whatever this is in this context, like, and then I'm automatically ashamed that I'm not good because I'm not good.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: So so what I want to just close this off by saying it's very, very common experience.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: We know where it comes from.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very easy to think that the shame comes from what we from the body itself.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like for like we see our body in the mirror, and we go, I feel shame.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very easy to go, well, it's the body I'm seeing that is causing the shame.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: And when we start to understand what's actually going on, which is I'm having an opinion about what I'm seeing in the mirror.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm having an opinion about a body that I'm seeing in the mirror.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been told five times, you know, before breakfast, that that body, the kind of body that looks like that, is wrong.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's too fat, it's too old, it's too saggy, it's not fit enough, it's eating too many processed foods, it's not counting its protein, it's, you know, it's doing all these things in your mind are already deciding that that body is not okay.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where we can go and start to go, well, it's not actually the body itself, it's all those thoughts and opinions and beliefs that you're having about that body.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And are those thoughts, beliefs, and opinions that you're having about the body or about the relationship, are they yours?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or are they imposed upon you from the system that you've been raised in, the patriarchy?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, are they imposed on you from that system?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: So are they bingo?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, bingo, and then you've got some empowerment, right?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can go, I actually don't want those thoughts anymore.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because then you've got a choice, then you've got a consented choice.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can make a quality decision for yourself.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can go, do I want to keep having those thoughts?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Knowing that that's valid, you can keep thinking that, and do I want to keep trying to fix my body so that my thoughts can get better?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Fine.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now that you know this is how it works, help yourself.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or do I want to do the work, which is challenging but totally doable, of having very, very different thoughts?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that when I look at my body, what I see is a body.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's it, it's a body.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: So now when I see my body and I've had all those thoughts, believe you me, I have had all those thoughts that all women have about their bodies, but now I have I see myself in the mirror and I go, there's the body I do life in.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Did I choose it?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Is there things I would change if I had, you know, if I had picked it out piece by piece, maybe, but it doesn't really matter.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's the one I've got.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I get to do literally nothing without it.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna care for it.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't need to love the look of it, I don't need to think it's hot, I don't need to any of that stuff, it's just simple.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's a body, it's the one I've got, and that's what it looks like.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that is so much less painful and shameful and all that other stuff of all that noise.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: And oh my god, I spent almost 50 years trying to fix what I saw in the mirror, not knowing that I actually could just sort out what I thought about it in my brain, and therefore what you felt about it in your body, in your head, in your heart, in your yeah, in your body.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, and the energy I have is of a different quality because I'm not trying to fix it.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: So when I said before, it's really hard to know whether we just want to feel good in our body when we're trying to survive shame.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when we're not trying to survive shame, which means we look in the mirror and we're just having very neutral thoughts that just don't activate our emotions, then we can actually connect to what is making my body feel good.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: There, and I just keep feeling into the the parallel between what you're saying about your clients and mine.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing, you know.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling shame because he had an affair, he's dumped me, he's left me for the younger, fitter, hotter person.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or I had the affair, I'm ashamed about that, or the relationship just dissolved.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: I must be shit at relationships, you know, all that stuff.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's all just noise in your head.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Change what you're telling yourself in your head, change what you're thinking about it, and that will change what you feel about yourself.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: That is so true, isn't it?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: So so when we're sitting and having those new coming into a relationship, either in our relationship or or after a relationship with neutrality and going, what do I want to create here?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: How do I take care of myself in this moment rather than trying to fight the what's true about me because XYZ?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well, there's another podcast conversation between you and me another day.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Just that.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Last question for penultimate question for you.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you could burn down one rule, and I'm putting rule in inverted commas that we as women are handed about our bodies, maybe even about our relationships, about how we're supposed to show up in the world, what would it be?
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, one role about our bodies.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: The idea that they mean something about us.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'd like I'd get I'd just scrap that one from the start.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like your body means nothing about you.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can if you can embody that, it the liberation in it is is massive.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Your body doesn't automatically give you belonging, it doesn't give you value in the world, it doesn't give you no.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean you're a good doesn't mean you're a good girl, does it?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Does not mean you're a good girl.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just because you go to the gym, it doesn't mean you're a good person.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and if you don't go to the gym, doesn't mean you're a bad person.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just doesn't mean anything about you.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean anything.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Emma, for for just dumping that in the in the conversation.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: You've just blown my mind, listeners.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just holding my face going, what the f because she just said to us.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Our bodies don't mean anything about us.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, where can people find you and your work?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can find me at emmerite.co.nz.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's the absolute easiest place to find me.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: As you can hear, I'm a New Zealander, so.co.nz uh after my name.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm also on LinkedIn and I have a newsletter, a weekly newsletter, um, and a weekly podcast as well.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you can find them on my website too.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll drop that link in the show notes so listeners can easily, easily find you.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: Emma Wright, thank you so much for this conversation.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know you and I'll stay connected, and maybe you'll come back again on the podcast for another chat.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would love that.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: I really hope you enjoyed that conversation with Emma as much as we both enjoyed sharing it together and bringing it to you, and that you've gained some insight and tips from it about that intersection of you know, worthiness, shame, all the things that we're taught about ourselves and our bodies, and how it's not just about our bodies, it's about the way we show up in the world and it's about what we tell ourselves about what it means, whether it is our body or our relationship status.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: As always, thanks for being here.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: Till next week, bye for now.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, divorce coach and strategist, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love or benefit from listening to this episode, please share it with them.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you would follow and review the podcast so we can get in the ears of a whole lot more people just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next week for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Until then.