Latest / Blind Guys Chat / #136: Rocky 21: The EAA vs Mohammed

Transcript

#136: Rocky 21: The EAA vs Mohammed · Blind Guys Chat

• 0:00
  Foreign.
• 0:13
  Welcome to blind guys chat where oren o'. Neill.
• 0:17
  Hello.
• 0:17
  Jan bloom.
• 0:18
  Hello.
• 0:19
  And mohammed lashear.
• 0:21
  Hi there.
• 0:22
  Talk about the a to z of life.
• 0:26
  Foreign.
• 0:31
  Ladies and gentlemen and you're very welcome to episode 136 of Blind Guys Chat. Now just to let you know, you may hear a little less from me because I had some problems with my microphone during the original recording. So you'll hear more from Muhammad, Jan and Claudia this week than you will from me. But that's no bad thing. Later on we're going to be talking to an EAA expert.
• 0:56
  An expert?
• 0:59
  Well, allegedly. You say you're a lawyer.
• 1:01
  Yeah, as a lawyer, you know.
• 1:04
  Well, you know the way sometimes patients would like or doctors would like to get a second opinion. That's what we're doing here.
• 1:15
  I'm insulted on your behalf, Mo.
• 1:16
  Yes, but you're a second opinion qualified lawyer. You're a self professed lawyer. But anyway, anyway we will be talking to our expert later on and getting a second opinion. But in the meantime I want to talk about Site Village and Jan, you have just come back from Site Village, London. How did that all go?
• 1:36
  It was fun. It was. I went on my own this time even I left chef at home. He was there short years ago.
• 1:43
  That's where we met you and he in.
• 1:45
  Yeah, that's true, that's true. Yeah. And. But I went by train. Indeed. And it was a nice journey. I arrived on time at 10am at Saint Pancras and there. Yeah, there was a. Quite a nice experience.
• 1:59
  Brilliant.
• 2:00
  And then I left the Netherlands when it was cold. I don't know about your current weather but the weather here you. You hear it on my throat as well. I'm. I picked up a cold when I was there in. In a nice warm London I would say. But it was really. We had. I learned the word sleet. We had some sleet.
• 2:21
  Nice slushy.
• 2:22
  Nice snow.
• 2:23
  Really?
• 2:23
  Yeah. Slushy. Yeah, flushy.
• 2:25
  The bad parts of snow without the good parts.
• 2:27
  Yeah, that's true, that's true.
• 2:29
  It doesn't count as snow in my book.
• 2:31
  No, no, no, no, no, no. So it was not to give me.
• 2:34
  A bucket full of slush or sleet. I wouldn't be happy. Sorry.
• 2:37
  Oh yeah, yeah, no, it was good. But so there we met also there I met Mr. Stuart Lawler. He was. Yeah, he was very nice. He's greeting us all. He is really looking forward also. So he was asking even permission to attend the Christmas party. He said the Christmas quiz.
• 2:58
  You have to ask the lawyer first.
• 3:01
  Yeah. So that's why I bring it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll think about it.
• 3:07
  Take it under advisement.
• 3:08
  You consult the law. Oh, you're afraid of being ousted, I suppose.
• 3:15
  No, no.
• 3:15
  Yeah, well you're.
• 3:16
  You're well settled in. It's all good, don't worry.
• 3:19
  Well done. Yeah, no, but. But it was nice to meet him up again and then I, I met also other friends of. Of us. You know the guys from Double Tap. You know they were there. Well they were having a. They were at the booth of Sight and Sound so that was quite nice. They were hosting it. They had also some recordings on the. On the. Yeah. On the show or on the exhibition and also pre recordings et.
• 3:49
  Nice tap.
• 3:51
  There we go.
• 3:51
  Hey, that is a good one.
• 3:53
  Or the. Or the double blind guys.
• 3:55
  The double blind guys. That would be nice. You know it's cottage and, and. And then an Irish and then. And British and then two Dutchmen. Nah, there we go. But it was a nice happening. We. I even saw some new stuff as well that was always nice to have besides all. Yeah, it was an. The new Windows note taker from humanware. Yeah it was really. It's called Notetaker Evolve and so that is really an. A really nice device. It was. It felt really light and also comfortable in. In hands. It was a nice, nice buttons etc. It was with a Braille keyboard and of course some keys like arrow keys and a window or an escape key and then Windows and. And some other additional key. The traditional Braille keypad of course and 32 braille cells. And funny thing was also that they were a nice cells. So there was always how they felt. Yeah, yeah. How they felt. Yeah, A really good. Yeah. Edition Clauda. There was so. Because you have that also the Monarch and the Dot Pet. You know what I touched as well had the multiline braille displays. This is a single line braille display and you really feel the difference between the EMBR cells, the magnetic ones and the KGS or the Piezo cells.
• 5:30
  Oh yeah.
• 5:31
  And Humanware is manufacturing now their own cells so they feel like the KGS cells and of course they have a lot of good relationship with them and the hardware was quite promising. They have an i5, I don't know really the gigahertz etc. The frequency, but with a 32 gigabyte internal RAM. So that is quite professional. And a big hard drive of. I think it was half of a terabyte and so it was quite an.
• 6:05
  Yeah.
• 6:06
  Promising device. And it was with a keysoft installed and also you can run your preferred screen reader. And when he installed Jaws on was immediately recognizing the rail display with the. According the HID protocol. So there was quite. Yeah, they were quite enthusiastic about that. And they will later on come with a real Qwetti keyboard and then not with a 32 cells but a 40 cells braille display. So that is all in the same case. So it's not an. A bigger display or bigger casing but yeah, the same look and feel, just a different layout. And yeah, that, that was really not.
• 6:56
  Have a screen then. Right. It's a true note taker in that sense.
• 6:59
  No, no, it's completely. I did not touch it actually and I, I did not see or I did not ask also about the I O ports. Yeah, promising device I would say.
• 7:11
  And Talishan was the new haptics device there. You know the one with the compressor.
• 7:16
  No, the, the new haptics. No, no, no, no, that one was not there.
• 7:21
  No, that thing is. Is very interesting but it's also a little bit noisy. Yeah, it pops a little bit when the braille cells come up.
• 7:30
  Is this the one with the air bladder things?
• 7:32
  Yeah, yeah.
• 7:33
  Okay.
• 7:33
  Yeah, yeah.
• 7:34
  It's a site at CESON last year.
• 7:36
  Yeah. You, you, you touch it?
• 7:38
  Yeah, I did. It's not really portable though because you can't take the. The compressor is quite large.
• 7:44
  Yeah, yeah.
• 7:44
  You have a compressor separately.
• 7:46
  Yeah, it's under. Underneath your desk.
• 7:49
  It's underneath your.
• 7:51
  Yeah, yeah. I think you told me. It is like you have an, an. An aquarium, you know for fish and then for the air something. Yeah. Oxygen pack, isn't it like that but noisier? Yeah, a little. Oh a little bit. Oh yeah.
• 8:08
  It's a little noisy.
• 8:09
  Yeah, yeah.
• 8:11
  And where we walk, is there anybody there from we walk?
• 8:14
  Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I met Mr. Steve Bennett, you know, an old colleague of us. He was then in those days he was working for Dolphin as the international sales guy. Now he is working for a couple of days in a month in. Yeah for we walk and he was there and. And I think he's now on the plane to Vietnam in Cambodia or Thailand. So he's enjoying you know his time now for a nice holiday. The we walk was quite interesting and. But, but still, you know, the handle is quite heavy since the. All the intelligence is in the. Is in the.
• 8:50
  It didn't feel that bad to me though.
• 8:52
  Jan. No, no, it's not bad but still when you connect it to the Ambitec, you know.
• 8:58
  Yeah.
• 8:58
  Then it is quite. That Ambitec is also quite an. Yeah, yeah. It's a strong.
• 9:03
  When you're used to a Swarovski, I.
• 9:05
  Suppose I, I showed them my Swarovski and that's what I did. Also to the guys from Double Tap and, and also to Steve, as it would be nice to have an add on for the Swarovski. I said, nah, yeah. Who knows, you know, because then he, he showed me how it is connected, the Ambitec. And yeah, you can think of a connection between. But yeah, the Ambitec is much. How do you say that? Bigger and stronger than the Dandy Swarovski. And the Swarovski is then really a tiny, tiny and, and lightweighted, uh, uh, cane.
• 9:49
  I might actually buy the. We walk. I'm thinking of it for sure.
• 9:54
  Okay. Why, that'll be interesting.
• 9:56
  So I live in. Well, this, this village that I live in is brand new. They started building it like seven years ago or so. But I live near to a very historic town and sometimes I need to go into that town to get things.
• 10:11
  Yeah.
• 10:12
  But of course in the Middle Ages they didn't think about accessibility at all. So that town center, it's cobble. Yeah, cobblestone. So it's not so bad. But the problem is it's full of junk and I keep on walking into stuff.
• 10:27
  Right.
• 10:27
  And I would love to have the glide, but the glide is not going to be available here very soon. So maybe the rewalk will work to warn me.
• 10:34
  Yeah.
• 10:36
  Before I run into stuff. So I'm really thinking of buying it.
• 10:40
  It felt really nice in the hands, you know. That is true, but still it is quite. So you need to have it rolling, I think, on the, on the, on the, on the surface with a rolling ball, you know.
• 10:51
  Yeah, I always do that anyway.
• 10:53
  Oh, you do that?
• 10:54
  I never tap. I never.
• 10:55
  Oh, you never tap.
• 10:56
  Oh, I hate tapping.
• 10:58
  Oh, really? I like tapping.
• 11:00
  I only double tap. I don't.
• 11:06
  Miss a double tap.
• 11:09
  Yeah, but you'd need kind of the bigger rolling ball. Wouldn't you mow for that rather than the small one? Because it'll get caught, wouldn't it, in the, in the couple.
• 11:16
  Well, I hate the small one anyway. It gets caught and I, I walk fast. I'm like a fast, fast walker.
• 11:21
  Yeah.
• 11:22
  So, yeah, I need a bigger ball anyway.
• 11:25
  Okay.
• 11:26
  Okay.
• 11:27
  But this one was a little bit smaller than the tennis ball, you know, A little bit smaller, right?
• 11:32
  Yeah, yeah.
• 11:33
  But what's convenient was good. But you have an app as well with the we walk.
• 11:38
  I think it does navigation and there's a couple of settings in the uk they have we assist, which is kind of ira, but from we walk. Wow. So that's interesting as well.
• 11:48
  And is that a subscription or is it included?
• 11:51
  Oh, that's, that's a subscription.
• 11:53
  Oh, by the way, when I was walking around then, I was, you know, because I was there with my colleague Mark Statham. Mark. Also nice that you listen also again, you know, hey, Mark. But hello. Hey. Hello, Mark.
• 12:06
  Yeah, yeah.
• 12:07
  And then I was, I, I heard a shout out, hey, is there a blind guy's jet? You know, I, I, you know, I was not aware of it and then, yeah, a lady came up walking to me and she, her name is Nikki. Yeah, and. Yeah, we're gonna do an Eichelin.
• 12:36
  Shout out. Donkey. Well.
• 12:44
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:54
  Here, that's enough of that double dodge.
• 12:56
  But it was a nice visit to Site Village and, but, but as you can hear, I, I picked up a cold and that was not so nice. But.
• 13:04
  Oh, and it was a different venue this year, wasn't it?
• 13:06
  Yeah, it was in a different. It was, it was a nice venue. It was well laid out and it was not, yeah, a lot of people, but it was not that crowded. Although it was of course always nice at Kensington Town hall. But it was now in a hotel. Yeah, I arrived at St Pancras and then we took the Piccadilly line to a certain stop and then we had to also do a couple of stops with a bus even. So it was quite a distance from. Yeah, from it. But, but it was accessible and it was in. Close to an. An hotel, so there where we stayed. So it was quite nice.
• 13:44
  Very good. So did you find it all on your own, Jan, or did you?
• 13:48
  I, I had my guide dog, Mark with me. To be honest, I cannot, I, I would be lost, I think, in the Tube, you know, to go. Yeah, that is. Oh, it is.
• 13:58
  It's very confusing.
• 13:59
  In fairness, it is really confusing people.
• 14:01
  So, I mean, to be honest, you can just, you know, look around you in a bewildered way and people come to you and say, do you need something?
• 14:08
  That's what I do if I get lost. That's true, that's true, that's true, that's true. But to be there on your own, you need to really rely upon assistance, you know, even when they are passing by or when you go. Because, yeah, for me it was quite useful that you can, with your bank card, you can. Oh, yeah, log on and log off, you know, then that the Porch will open for you.
• 14:32
  That's at least easy. Yeah, yeah.
• 14:34
  So you don't need to purchase a ticket or whatever at the kiosk.
• 14:38
  Now, ladies and gentlemen, time for our guest. Adeli Buliman is from Vialli here in Dublin. Don't get your knickers in a twist, as we would say in Ireland. Mohammed Adela is here as our second opinion, as we have mentioned.
• 14:54
  You know, Erwin, I lost my tie, so I'm not a lawyer anymore. We can have. Oh, it just. I dropped it somewhere. I don't know where it is.
• 15:06
  That is not so nice. Omo. We paid a fortune for it.
• 15:11
  We need a. I know.
• 15:13
  Yeah.
• 15:14
  We need black toy events. All right, Adele, you're very welcome to the show. And just tell us what you're. You're the chief Accessibility officer. So what. What. Jesus. Does that mean? What do you do your daily job?
• 15:33
  Yeah.
• 15:34
  Thanks very much, guys. I'm excited to be here. But, yeah, I think I said it.
• 15:41
  Yeah, I think.
• 15:42
  I think I said it earlier, but my job is basically emails and meetings. But in actual meeting, in actual fact, I lead a team of accessibility experts. So I have up to, I think, 10 people now. And they do a combination of consulting for businesses that want to be compliant. They perform audits, they run automated scans as well. They use a range of different assistive technology. They do hardware testing, they facilitate user testing, they do training, documents, etc. Basically, if it's digital in some way and it can be made accessible, we can probably help you with that.
• 16:27
  Okay, and is this just for companies within Ireland or all across Europe?
• 16:33
  No, it's globally. So we can do. US and the standards are very similar actually across the globe. So we've done, you know, kind of US Based work as well.
• 16:46
  And is there a company, do you know, that's available that can make a website inaccessible? Because we really want. We're interested in that. We don't want to make our technology, our products, inaccessible.
• 17:00
  Buy Larry a keyboard. You can have it done for free.
• 17:05
  Yeah. Larry's Guide.
• 17:08
  99% of the websites on the Internet and you'll find an inaccessible one quite easily.
• 17:15
  All right, so let's fire off with a few questions about the eaa, the European Accessibility act, which came into force in Ireland and across Europe in 2025, but became legislation or became law in 2019. In your view, what does it mean for people who are blind and low vision?
• 17:38
  So I think this legislation, in my mind is a real. A first step legislation is what I like to call it. It's super focused on critical services for one. So it calls out some really specific industries. One, the financial and banking industry, which I think is probably the most important one considering the fact that if you control someone financially and don't give them independence on that, it's super easy to be controlled and abused. And that's a real reality for a lot of disabled people. We then have E Commerce, which they just define as like anything sold at a distance, which is basically every single company that sells a product or service. And then we have like transport and stuff is and telecoms and so on. So there's a few other kind of critical industries. It also really focuses on just making sure your services and products can be accessed through more than one sensory channel, which is a piece that people often miss. But what basically means is that if you have a bunch of different disabilities, things might still not be fully accessible for you. For instance, if there's a device that has like a touchscreen kind of scenario on it, you need your sight to interact with that device. If you enabled audio on it so that you can use your hearing instead, that passes the legislation, you pass the standards. However, if you are both deaf and blind, you cannot access it. And also there's no legal cover for that. It's not required by the legislation. So that's why I think it's a real first step legislation. Ireland have also chosen to exclude the built environment.
• 19:27
  What services are not required at this stage that you think are hugely important but just are overlooked at this point.
• 19:35
  So if you make under 2 million turnover a year as a business or you have less than 10 employees, you do not fall into scope of this legislation. So any small businesses that maybe are super critical you wouldn't be able to access. Also there's all the public sector bodies that don't sell anything, so wouldn't fall under it. But they also provide really critical things and they're not required under the EAA to do anything about it now they are under the public sector regulations. But if you don't comply with those, it's like, you know, a slap on the wrist. And there's a report out there somewhere saying that you're very bad. Okay, but there's no kind of implications. Yeah, exactly.
• 20:19
  Yeah, yeah, okay, but so what kind of examples do you have that, that benefit from it then what is then changed or what needs to be accessible, for example?
• 20:34
  Well, I think as I said, the banking one is like the most important in atm. My eyes. Yeah, well it's all banking services. Right. So it's devices in terms of like, like self service terminals, in terms of ATMs, there's also payment terminals, like when you go pay for something in a shop, there's all the digital customer services. So like your online banking, loans, savings accounts, mortgages, etc and everything involved in the service. Right. So it's not just digital, it's do they send you letters, can you get your statements? Do they, can you access support services or are you only able to call them on the phone? And if you're hearing impaired or don't have vocal capabilities, you're not able to access support services then.
• 21:18
  So it's the whole, what do you advise then for me when I enter a shop or a restaurant and I need to pay for the bill, get.
• 21:27
  Somebody else to pay it.
• 21:28
  Yeah. And, and I cannot access this touch screen or this keypad, you know, to fill in my PIN code.
• 21:37
  I think firstly just to say that there is some extra timelines for devices and self service terminals so they don't have to be accessible from right this second. But when we get to the point that they do have to be, it's the regulator then that you go to. So products fall under CCPC in Ireland, but every country has their own regulatory bodies that oversee that.
• 22:03
  I believe in the Netherlands, Y, it would be the rcm.
• 22:06
  Oh.
• 22:09
  Marked. So that's the Consumer and Market Authority.
• 22:11
  And what you can do is you lodge a complaint with them and then they investigate the issue on your behalf and they kind of deal with it as such. So what the regulator aims to do is to make them compliant. They might give them a timeline and say, you know, if you don't fix this in six months, we'll fine you this amount. Usually if the organization cooperates, they kind of let them be. They don't find them, they just, you know, they, they just want the compliance and they'll keep checking in. Now that's really dependent on the country. The Scandinavians are not as nice about it. And then if they refuse to become accessible or they refuse to do the work, it can be brought up to a court of law then, so then it would be like a legal issue.
• 22:59
  So let me fire off a couple of services at you and see if.
• 23:03
  There comes the lawyer.
• 23:07
  I lost my tie. You don't have to take me seriously anymore. So for example. Right, go ahead.
• 23:15
  Sorry, I was just gonna say I actually have your tie. I'm wearing it now. That's why you don't.
• 23:22
  I. I knew she sounded smart. No, no, no, no, let's not go there. So things like for example, media boxes that you get through your TV provider, do they have to be accessible under this, under this law?
• 23:42
  Yes. So they would be considered a product that's manufactured. So. Yes. However, they have five years. So it's either. It's up to 2030 or anything new that is released must be compliant.
• 23:56
  Anything new.
• 23:56
  Interesting. So that, that also goes for things like kitchen appliances, washing machines, those kinds of things. They need to be accessible as well.
• 24:05
  Yeah, well, they still have to be within the industries that are mentioned, but as I said, they defined E commerce as anyone that sells anything at a distance through online or phone services, which is basically all of them.
• 24:19
  Everyone.
• 24:19
  So what, so in, in practical terms then, what does that mean in terms of for instance. Jan. Yeah, an oven.
• 24:29
  Oh, an oven, yeah, yeah. And a microwave and an. What is this? Induction cooker.
• 24:38
  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So are they accessible? Should they have been accessible?
• 24:43
  Should they be accessible if they are a new product that has been placed on the market after June 2025? Yes.
• 24:52
  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this, these models should be then released after June in that way, this year?
• 25:00
  Yeah, basically, yeah. So anything new that you buy in the future is required to be accessible. The manufacturer is responsible for the actual like device itself being accessible. But whoever you buy it off has a responsibility to be able to share information on how compliant or accessible it is. So if you go into a shop and say I want an oven that's accessible, they need to be able to tell you which one is accessible and what accessibility features it has.
• 25:28
  Can I ask a stupid question though, on that basis? Because I am stupid, so I ask the stupid questions, what is accessible when it comes to an oven or a washing machine, for example? How do you define accessibility for products like that?
• 25:47
  So there is a standard for hardware. There's actually, there's a digital standard overall. It's called the EN trio 154 9. A really nice name for a standard.
• 26:00
  Lovely name.
• 26:01
  Yeah. And it has a hardware section in it and it, it basically puts some kind of rules and guidelines in. It doesn't go for ovens do this. It says any controls need to be tactilely discernible, so you should be able to feel where the controls are. That's one guideline. For instance, there's also rules for like, it can only be a particular height, a screen can only be at a particular angle, etc, if someone's in a wheelchair, there must be audio for all. All visual content that appears. So it's kind of broad statements like that.
• 26:38
  True.
• 26:38
  Ah, so it's quite broad. So the. So as long as the washing machine has buttons that would. Would that deem to be accessible?
• 26:47
  It would, but there would also have to be some sort of way to know what the buttons do.
• 26:52
  Right.
• 26:52
  Like, you know those super fancy washing machines that all have like screens and so on. There would have to be some audio that says, you know, option one cotton. And then you press next button and it says option two, whatever the other options are. I don't use any other options. But there would have to be, you know, you should not have to rely on one particular sensory characteristic to use.
• 27:16
  The device question here. Right. Would it be acceptable to say, yes, we are accessible because you can set the washing machine up with our app and that is accessible. Is that a good loophole or do you have to be accessible as a device and not need a smartphone?
• 27:39
  That may be a loophole. Now again, it kind of depends on like case law and regulators and what they feel, I guess because we don't have any case lot to base this on yet. But, but generally if there is an accessible alternative that allows you to access the same information and functionality, that tends to be.
• 27:59
  Okay, okay, yeah.
• 28:03
  So you can't be both blind and old and not be able to use a smartphone. If there's a smartphone app, like it's almost like you said with the deafblind. Right. So there's a smartphone app, ergo there is accessibility and you need to use that.
• 28:18
  Yeah. And that is actually an issue we have been seeing is, you know, there's these alternatives put in, but a lot of time they're very techy and we, if we think about the blind low vision community, something like three quarters of people over pension age have some sort of visual impairment. So not only are they visually impaired, but they're also about 70 years old and maybe only lost their sight in the last few years. So they're already trying to figure out screen readers first of all. And all the way tech is moving so quickly and then also dealing with these new products and services. So there is a large group that will maybe not benefit from this legislation.
• 28:56
  So let's say there's a touchscreen and that you're paying in a restaurant and the person at the table says it's a touchscreen. And you say, well, I can't put in my PIN because it's a touchscreen. There's no audio available on it for me to put it in. They say to me, oh, just give me your pin. And I say, no, no, I'm not giving you my pin, because I don't know you, it's local to me. I want to keep it personal. And I say, well, there's no other way of paying. And I say, okay, that's fine. Then I get a free meal because you're not getting my pin and there's no other way of paying in the restaurant. Can I legally, you know, walk out of the restaurant and say, and even if there's some kind of case after, and say, well, I couldn't pay for my meal because I want to pay by my credit card, my debit card or my Apple Watch, whatever, couldn't do it. So I can walk out of. I can walk out of the establishment.
• 29:58
  I am not 100% sure on that because I'm not a lawyer, I guess. And like I said, there's no case law really yet on a situation like that. However, you would definitely have a case with the regulator. One kind of caveat actually, with, say, bringing a complaint is you have to prove that you actually were genuinely trying to use the service. So you wouldn't be able to go to the regulator and say, well, all of these five banks are inaccessible because you probably won't have five banks. You know, you have to show that you actually genuinely were wanting to use the service and couldn't. But I don't know if you could just walk out. It's kind of similar. Do you remember when they made it a law in Ireland that taxis needed to offer credit cards?
• 30:49
  Yeah.
• 30:50
  And it was a really similar scenario where people were doing that, like they were literally getting out of taxis or calling the police or so on and just saying, well, I refused the pay this now and I think in some situations it did work. But a lot of law is just, let's have a first instance happen, then we'll decide what the outcome is and we'll say that's the precedent going forward.
• 31:13
  Okay.
• 31:14
  Right.
• 31:14
  We've not exactly ever made anything easy for disabled people. So I don't think that's. That's changing anytime soon. No, but, but what I would say in that scenario is there is also a requirement to provide information about how accessible a product is. So if there's no information about it, either it's not accessible or they're already not compliant with the law by not providing that info.
• 31:41
  So in the case that I am thinking, I have been thinking for months to change from my sky subscription to free sat. If what you're saying is, if I go into the freesat supplier here for my TV in Dublin and I asked Them. Okay, I want to switch from my sky subscription, I want to get rid of that and I want to get a freesapp box so they don't have to pay a monthly subscription. Can you tell me if the freesat box that you are selling or boxes that you are selling are accessible to the blind? You're saying, if I have it right, that the person behind the counter should or must be able to tell me whether the products they have in their shop are accessible.
• 32:32
  Yes, that is a requirement of the EAA for them to be able to do that.
• 32:37
  Excellent. Going to freeze that tomorrow.
• 32:41
  Okay.
• 32:41
  Okay.
• 32:43
  But what do you think? Is it accessible Oren, or what?
• 32:47
  Well, all I can tell you is when I asked this question last year.
• 32:51
  Oh, they didn't know.
• 32:52
  They simply did not know. But I think it's interesting that you say that if I go into and I'm buying a product, am I making a tv, a freestyle box or whatever? If it's a particular product and I'm going into a store, you're saying, and you've just confirmed it, that whoever I'm talking to, if I ask the question, is this product accessible to me, a blind person, they, if they, okay, they should know. But if they don't know, they should be able to find somebody in the store that can answer that question or.
• 33:30
  Some information booklet or something that they have. Yeah.
• 33:34
  Or they shouldn't be saying to me, I don't know, go and look it up on the Internet and then come back to us.
• 33:41
  Okay, no, no. And it also, it must be linked in the terms and conditions. So when you're buying something or you know, accessing a banking service, whatever it is, you're, you know, you're reading the terms and conditions, it's saying we are this accessible, they're standing by it and you're agreeing to those terms when you buy it, then you know, so, so.
• 34:01
  What kind of have we done now? A lot of hardware, etc. But software wise, you said that, that your organization is, is doing all kind of tests, etc. Are they doing that a lot these days? Has it been increased after the E or did you see that people were, or companies were more aware of it or.
• 34:24
  Yeah, I'd say it's like 90% of what we do is on the digital side of things. It's easier than hardware to fix. You know, you can go write some alt text for an image, a little easier. There's some things that are, you know, take some more time, but you can just put a team of digital people on something to make a website accessible eventually. So we saw a massive uptake at the end of last year and then the first half of this year where people were getting audits done because they have absolutely no understanding of accessibility in, you know, largely. So getting a kind of checklist and Excel with please do this 700 things on every page. That's something that a lot of organizations want. So, okay, we did an awful lot of audits and now we're at the point where we're rechecking fixes for a lot of those organizations that actually did it on time.
• 35:20
  You see actually improvements for the accessibility.
• 35:26
  We are seeing improvements now. It's slow for sure, and it's standards based. Standards and compliance don't necessarily mean better usability, but it means that the relevant labels will be there for a screen reader, the right colors will be chosen, etc.
• 35:42
  So if the European Commission came to you tomorrow and said, you know, we, we want to strengthen accessibility even more, what are the three most important things you think we should put into a EAA 2.0?
• 35:56
  I think that's a hard one to answer. Right? Because in my mind it's a cultural and awareness shift that needs to happen. And I don't know how exactly you would put that into legislation. You know, we can pass a law saying you must speak to disabled people sometimes and ask them things. That's not very realistic, you know, but ideally what I would like to see is accessibility just in like every process. You know, there's so many things we take for granted. Like if you work in a business and you're on the digital side and someone goes, have you asked the manager that we're actually allowed put this feature in? The answer is, of course we have. Don't be ridiculous. We've gotten approval. Or have you done functional testing for this? Of course we have. Don't be ridiculous. So that's what I want for accessibility. I want people to go, have we done accessibility testing at each step of this process? And they go, obviously that's what I want, but I don't know if you can put that in a legislation.
• 36:59
  I've been trying to go to the movies now a couple of times and we have this app here in the Netherlands called Air Catch which has, which has audio description for movies in the cinema. But I don't find all the movies in there. So there's a movie that I want to see and I'm going to look into that app for audio description and I don't have it. And if I then Go to the cinema and say, oh, do you have audio description for this movie? They say, yes, we've got this fantastic app called Ear Catch. And if I tell them there's no audio description there, they'll be like, well, then we don't have it, do we? So it's something like audio description.
• 37:34
  And what's your question? What's your problem there?
• 37:38
  It's something like audio description covered under the ea.
• 37:43
  Yeah.
• 37:43
  So audio visual media services are specifically mentioned in the legislation. Now again, I don't know if that covers every single cinema or so on. There may be still exceptions people can avail of depending on how much money they make and so on. Audio stuff, movies, etc, like anything you can access on your skybox should be under this legislation as well.
• 38:13
  Interesting, interesting.
• 38:16
  In terms of its accessibility, like in terms of audio description. I mean that's, I mean the problem there is most of what is on, you know, what's on your sky box. Okay, there, there is sky, there's BBC, there's itv, there's rte, there's lots of other channels and. But they would all be guided. Those broadcasters who are feeding into the skybox would all be legislated by their regulator, their broadcast regulator. So that wouldn't fall inside the eaa. So it's. It. The EAA doesn't say that every piece of content, broadcast content, must have, for example, sign language subtitles and audio description, because that falls into a different, that falls under different legislation.
• 39:10
  Yeah, and this one's going to take a while as well because it comes back to what you guys were talking about last week with the third parties. Right. So the third party providers that have actually created the content are not under the eaa, but technically sky is, because you've paid sky for a service of audio visual media services. And they should, they are responsible then to make sure that you can access accessible content. But that's going to take a real long time because they have to go argue with the providers and so on. And it's the same with flights. So we were working with an airline who have the same issue where they have in flight entertainment. And they want, yeah, they would like, they want accessible content on there, but it's a third party that provide that content. So they have to go basically threaten them and say, well, we're gonna end our contract with you if you don't provide this. And that third party is annoyed because they're not technically in scope. So there's like a financial reason for them to do it. But it's going to take Some catching up because they weren't prepared to be in scope.
• 40:21
  Okay, but there's more of a responsibility when you go back to websites, isn't there more of a responsibility that any of the content that is available there. Let's say there's video content available on a website that that particular content must be in. Comply. Comply with EAA in that it should. It should have sign language subtitles and audio description available.
• 40:46
  Yeah. So again, it comes back to the service. Is that video necessary for the use of a service? If it's not, if it's just fluff or it's marketing, depending on what that marketing is saying, it might not be in scope. Also, Anything posted before June 2025 that is not necessary to the use of a service wouldn't count either. When it comes to YouTube, whoever posted the content is responsible for it. Any content you control or fund. That's why it's your responsibility. So, you know, if you put up a video on YouTube, that's your responsibility. However, the YouTube platform itself, like the ability to, you know, click the like button with your screen Reader, that's YouTube's responsibility.
• 41:32
  Okay, well, but there is, I think there is some room there because of course, YouTube has a partner program and it sells ads on videos. And so it. And by selling those ads, it funds the videos. Is that.
• 41:49
  Yes. But do. Are those ads necessary for you to. Is it necessary to get that information for you to use the YouTube service?
• 41:58
  Well, I'm not allowed to use it without ads.
• 42:02
  Yeah, but I mean, the information within the ads, this is like what they would be arguing is you can use YouTube without understanding the information that is within the advertisements on the videos. And so they could argue that they're not in scope based on that if they wanted to do that. Like the marketing one is, it's so gray. Right. Like I was speaking to one of the banks the other day. And so any of their marketing material that tells you information about a product or service they provide needs to be accessible. Anything else that is like just maybe pushing you to get a service, or maybe they put a blog up saying like, oh, this is why you should have a care loan. That wouldn't necessarily be in scope because it's not actually about their services. They're like advertising vaguely.
• 42:48
  And I just wanted to clarify that even though this is a European accessibility Act, I'm correct in assuming that if you're selling your product, be it piece of software, for example, into Europe, that software that you're selling into Europe and I'm buying must Be accessible. Even if, even if that provider, supplier is in America or Australia or Asia or Africa, doesn't matter where. Once they're selling into Europe, they must, they must comply with the EAA rules.
• 43:28
  Yeah. And that's usually how the EU works. Like again, when they brought in that rule of. Or the law saying, like, all devices need to have usbc, it didn't matter that Apple are based in the us. They're selling into eu. They want to access the EU market, they need to follow EU rules.
• 43:45
  So I know that in Belgium, if you're in the bus, they will not tell you what the next stop is. Audibly, you'll have to either see it or. Well, you have to see it. That's all the options there are. In the Netherlands, they do have this system, but it sometimes is turned off or turned down so low that you can barely hear it.
• 44:06
  Yeah, it happens here in Ireland too.
• 44:07
  Yeah. So, yeah. Is that a requirement under the EAA that you are, you know, that transport companies should take care that, you know, their, their announcements are perceivable and that there are announcements in the first place.
• 44:23
  Yeah. So real time travel information is specifically mentioned under transport on the eaa.
• 44:29
  So.
• 44:30
  Yes. And even things like, like, I don't know how they're gonna do it. Jan, you probably know this better than anyone, but if you get a train in Germany about three seconds before, there's gonna be a really blurry announcement that tells you it's late. And also it's on a different platform and you have to somehow hear that and then run. And there's no if you don't have hearing, like, you are not getting that train, you know, but those kind of announcements.
• 44:53
  Yeah, but at least you have the information possible in a way.
• 44:57
  Yeah, but it's too late.
• 44:58
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 45:02
  But the point is that if you are hearing impaired, you won't get that information in time.
• 45:07
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 45:08
  What's the reaction or what's the level of complaints or how has it been received so far? Do you, have you got any details on that?
• 45:19
  It really depends on the country. I think there's been a lot of panic to start off with because in a lot of countries, the regulator themselves also have no idea about accessibility. You know, so they're being shown this law saying everyone has to be accessible. And I'm sure they're all sitting there going, since when can blind people use phones? You know, like I would say they.
• 45:43
  Have no idea what actually can they speak.
• 45:50
  But if you look at, say, Scandinavia, like Finland Sweden, so on. They already had some pretty good accessibility laws and they're taking a really intense approach to it where, okay, they're not saying, oh, you have six months to be compliant and then we'll find you. They're saying, we're going to find you every single day until you're compliant. That's their reg. Yeah, that's their approach. And then the biggest lawsuit I've seen so far, there's a massive case in France at the moment over grocery retailers. So there's four really big kind of groceries services in France that provide, like, delivery. Right. So they fall under E Commerce because you can order your food on an app. So.
• 46:35
  Okay.
• 46:35
  Yeah, yeah.
• 46:35
  And it's not digitally accessible, especially to screen. Screener users. So there's a big case going on in France at the moment over that, which I'm quite excited about because that will set some case law.
• 46:48
  Thank you. Thank you so much for giving us so much time. I'm sure Mohammed wants to take away everything that you've said tonight and look at it legally.
• 46:56
  And I'll send the tie back.
• 46:58
  Mo. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
• 47:03
  Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 47:06
  Many thanks. And then see you again.
• 47:09
  Yeah.
• 47:10
  Thank you so much.
• 47:11
  Yeah.
• 47:12
  Time for emails. Here comes our new email jingle.
• 47:15
  Yo, Clodagh, got the inbox. She's the email queen Reading out your messages she's the go between Tips, tricks, complaints, suggestions Blind guys chat questions Bringing the facts Hit us with your wisdom or your wise crack Attack email what you got to say Blind guy chat Gmail send it our way. Claudette reads it out loud no message too sly so hit that keyboard let your fingers tap we're waiting on your voice in this funky rap.
• 47:59
  I'm too busy dancing I'm not going to answer any emails.
• 48:02
  So what do you think?
• 48:03
  This was really fun.
• 48:05
  Really good.
• 48:05
  I would say six, seven.
• 48:10
  We'll need to. We need to. I'll share the lyrics with you so you can sing along next time.
• 48:15
  Yeah.
• 48:16
  Or rap along.
• 48:17
  It's a really funky, funky music. Yeah, yeah, funky.
• 48:21
  So anyway, go on, read the first email. Go on. Have we got one?
• 48:24
  Okay, so we got one from a lovely woman called Nina in Canada. She didn't tell us whereabouts in Canada, but she says, hey, Vanguard, I really appreciate your recent chats about independence and travel. As someone with partial sight, I sometimes struggle when. With when to ask for help and when to push myself to do things solo. How do you balance independence with accepting assistance without feeling guilty or stubborn? Love from shitty Canada, Nina.
• 48:52
  It's colder here than it is in.
• 48:53
  Canada today, so I thought.
• 48:54
  Yeah, well, in Toronto, when do you feel guilty?
• 48:57
  I never feel guilty.
• 48:59
  No, me neither.
• 48:59
  Don't need to feel guilty at all. Look, it's hard enough to live with less vision. Don't feel guilty about trying to make it easier on yourself. Yeah. I mean, it's easy to say. Right. But it's maybe a little bit harder to do. But that just. That's a no. No, you just. Whenever you feel guilty, just shut that down. There's no point to it.
• 49:18
  Yeah.
• 49:19
  Another, like, stubbornness is something I think we all. We all feel sometimes. But I. I would say if it's not serving you, if it takes you, like, instead of an hour, it takes you three hours to get somewhere.
• 49:34
  Yeah.
• 49:34
  And you are exhausted by the end. Don't be stubborn and, you know, make your own life so difficult that it's very difficult to, you know, to live your life essentially. Accept help in that case.
• 49:48
  Yeah.
• 49:48
  If that's good advice.
• 49:49
  Yeah.
• 49:50
  Yeah. And if you do find value in doing it yourself, for me, for example, going to Berlin. Right. Why would I do it on my own? Well, I mean, the value of it is to know that you can. A, yes, that's very important. And to have that confidence. And B, it. It keeps your travel skills up to date to do that.
• 50:13
  Yeah. Pushing yourself a little bit is good.
• 50:15
  Right? Yeah. Right.
• 50:17
  But.
• 50:17
  But, like, pushing yourself a little too much could end up getting you hurt. Really.
• 50:24
  Well, it's not just about hurt. It's just about, like, the opportunities that you'll miss.
• 50:28
  Yeah.
• 50:29
  Because of how hard things are. The fact that you are exhausted.
• 50:34
  Yeah.
• 50:34
  When you do them on your. On your own, that is. That means something too. Yeah.
• 50:40
  No, you're right. And it's. It's a. You know what? It's a great way of meeting new people.
• 50:45
  It is, for sure.
• 50:46
  Yeah.
• 50:46
  There's no reason to feel guilty because you. You're making people feel good about themselves.
• 50:51
  Absolutely.
• 50:52
  By letting them help you.
• 50:53
  You know, my kids are always jealous a little bit. You know, when I travel. You always meet people. You always have nice stories. You know, that's what they always. When I do that. No, I. But they are always in their mobile phone, you know, that is. Yeah. And then you don't attract people. Yeah.
• 51:08
  And I suppose it's also about knowing. Knowing your own limits and understanding. Yes. Okay. Push yourself a little, but don't go completely out of your comfort zone in a way that's gonna have you all stressed or worried. You know?
• 51:21
  Right.
• 51:22
  Yeah.
• 51:23
  And listen to your. To your mental state. Listen to your body. Right. When I was in Berlin, I usually would go by public transport all day, except for when I was going back to the hotel, I would just take an Uber.
• 51:35
  Yeah.
• 51:35
  Because I just didn't feel like it anymore. I'm like, well, I've had the whole day exhausted. I'm gonna take an Uber back. That's it.
• 51:41
  And that gives you also confidence, you know, that you always have an escape, you know, with the Uber or whatever that. That feels as in you can leave.
• 51:49
  A situation if you're not happy in it kind of thing. That's a really good point. You're not stuck relying on somebody.
• 51:54
  No, no, no. Because it can be sometimes that you don't meet up with people or that you meet people, but that they still get you in the wrong direction or that it takes so long or you have no connection or whatever, you know? Yes, that, that sometimes happens.
• 52:10
  Yeah.
• 52:11
  Yeah, it happens.
• 52:12
  Yeah.
• 52:12
  Sometimes I would, like, listen for someone and if I can hear them, I'll say, sorry. And sometimes you get like. Sometimes people just walk past and don't respond. Yeah, that's all right too. You need to be able to accept it because it has nothing to do with you. They might be looking at their phone, they might be running for a train. It might be all manner of things that it has nothing to do with you. Just try again next time and see what happens.
• 52:34
  Very good advice there from you guys. Well done. Okay, that's it from us for this week and we will see you in two weeks time. And don't forget, the email is blind, guys. Chat at gmail dot com. Okay, bye.
• 52:47
  Okay, bye. Bye.