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Putting the Customer at the Center of the Tech Stack | with Dado Ljumanovic · GAIN Momentum

• GAIN Momentum episode #84: Putting the Customer at the Center of the Tech Stack | with Dado Ljumanovic === Adam Mogelonsky: Welcome to the GAIN Momentum Podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, technology, food service, and travel. I'm joined by Dado Ljumanovic, the group director for digital guest experience at Sircle Collection. Dado, how are you doing? Dado Ljumanovic: Hey Adam, thanks for the invite and, uh, good, good. Very excited to do this podcast together with you. So, uh, thanks again about sending the invite to me. Adam Mogelonsky: of course. Well, great to have you on. Um, let's start off with what is the elevator pitch for Sircle Collection? Dado Ljumanovic: Ooh, I always love those. Uh, well, Sircle Collection is, uh, is a group of creative, uh, creative hospitality brands across Europe. We always say that we are located in the best neighborhoods, in the top cities in Europe. So each brand has its own, uh, personality. It's deeply tied in a local culture, which is very, very important for us, and also while benefiting from shared backbone of design, service, and technology. So our portfolio includes Sir Hotels, so different brands. So one of them is Sir Hotels, which is our design driven and neighborhood kind of focused, uh, group. Then we have Max Brown. We kind of call them quirky and warm and approachable. We have parks and trial hotels, which totally blends in kind of the heritage meeting, kind of the modern comfort. And then obviously we also have the cover, our membership program and, uh, and clubs. And then we also have our benefits program, which is also there, and it's called Sircle Clubs. So really kind of focusing on two kind of different layers of members. Uh, not to forget, we are also known to have a retail shop, which is called iBank. And in Amsterdam, which kind of bras in the Dutch, uh, designer works over there. And finally we have a seven North, which is our restaurant, uh, winning, uh, uh, award-winning restaurant group. So together they all create u unique, authentic experience and under one umbrella obviously. So, uh, wide range of brands, very interesting. One in amazing neighborhoods across Europe. Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. And more to you, specifically your title director of Digital Guest Experience. Can you describe what that role is and is also your tenure at, uh, Sircle? I. Dado Ljumanovic: So, yeah, that role has developed through the years, obviously different groups, but at the Sircle I'm in charge of the digital guest experience Sircle Collection. So my focus ra from every interaction from discovery and booking to, uh, instant posts. So all to make it seamless and personal, right? So that is very important for us is we are very, very, uh, brand and design driven, uh, uh, group. So that includes from the CRM, booking flows, registration forms, while you are checking in on iPad, when you turn on the tv, when you wanna hook up on wifi and you're in the room. And then obviously new developments like online, checking, checkout, digital key, so many, many aspects. And then obviously the. Clubs and loyalty too. I work very closely with operations, with revenue, with finance, with it, literally with all the departments who are kind of having their own impact on that, uh, digital guest experience because we wanna make it seamless and that, that experience has a, a really seamless, not only for the guests, but also for our staff as well. So this is a very important segment for us. And yeah, I always say I'm kind of the guardian of our brands when guests are kind of hitting our, uh, first contact with us. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. And you know from the, the average guest when it comes to technology, they're always wanting more. They're always wanting things integrated, more seamless, but behind the scenes, they often don't understand how much work it takes to actually put a text act together and to make sure that data is flowing seamlessly in real time and securely between different endpoints. So you mentioned the entire guest journey. I'm wondering if you could lens this through a specific example of how your vision for monitoring and. Curating this digital guest experience has really been amplified it and added value to the, the experience for the guest as well as the business case for Sircle overall. Dado Ljumanovic: So for us, so when I started at Sircle Collection at eight years ago, we were kind of shredded between different kind of Texas setups, obviously when you are starting the new hotels, taking over hotels and so on. So our main goal is to kind of start creating the unified stack, which we can use across all our hotels and restaurants and so on. So our major step was rolling out unified CRM. So that means it allow us to create single guest profiles, then personalized communication and run targeting campaigns. So all in all with one driven goal, which is kind of boosted direct revenue, but also collect as many kind of details what we can know about a certain guest so we can service them better. Another working is to improve the state journey within. We are also working a lot now is kind of online check in and check out digital keys because what we are trying to do with the tech stack is not to kind of replace the com complete human factor in there, but really to kind of enhance what we are doing over there. And this, uh, what as we do, it's guest save time and enjoying more control of what they're doing because nowadays we are all too busy. So you kind of do everything fast, fast, fast, but it needs to be really branded. It needs to feel right for the guest as well. While on the other, uh, side, the staff can really focus on meaningful services instead of just being the admin, you know, like processing data and so on. So that is kind of the, uh, the, the, the, the very important element what we, uh, did. And we are actually very proud of it. Adam Mogelonsky: Cool. And. You have the digital guest experience, and the whole point of that is to give guests a more seamless way to access a lot of the features and amenities that are part of this. The, the unique experiences you're crafting at Sircle Hotels, can you describe what some of those amenities are that really make Sircle unique that guests can access through digital means? Dado Ljumanovic: So for our hotels, stand out, as I said before, really about our creative design and art and restaurants, but also social spaces. So we are very unconventional hos, uh, hospitality group. So digitally we support that with a lot of web-based tools. Online checking-in digital key and service requests, so then guests can explore like also the local recommendations all digitally. So idea is really, uh, less friction but more enjoyment. So that is kind of the idea. So it's, as I said before, it's really supporting the main goal, which is servicing those guests and show them all what we have. I do need to put one line over there that everything what we do online or digitally needs to be in a perfect balance, what you see offline, and actually we really want to keep this in balance and sometimes even surprised in. That's one of the core values of Sircle collection. Surprise them when they're in the hotel. Like, Hey, it's even nicer. It's even better. Adam Mogelonsky: And you mentioned there, the Sircle Club and a lot of the member spaces. And when I was at the, uh, sir Victor, the Sircle Collection property in Barcelona, I really noticed that one of the, one of the key features you have there is the coworking space and then as well the Sircle club on the top floor that has a beautiful view overlooking the, the Grand Avenue in Barcelona. I, I forgot the exact name for it, but you know, this is one of the whole things we're seeing in hotels is a hotel is not just a head and bed. It is a place for like-minded people to congregate and also a place where people can access this new customer segment of bleisure or hybrid work, remote work, whatever you wanna call it. People wanting a office space or somewhere to hang out while they're abroad. I'm wondering with that as the, as the preamble, could you unpack a little more about what's involved with these, these spaces and how they add value to the brand? Dado Ljumanovic: of course. So what. Obviously you can hear that I'm very proud of Sircle Collection and all what we do. Uh, but what makes us very special is that we kind of, normally, lots of groups have just a, a kind of a loyalty kind of program or they have just a private members something, so you can compare like Soho House and so on. What makes Sircle Collection very special is actually that we have both programs, so I'm gonna little bit explain what it is. So the, the cover is our private members club and coworking concept. So it's there to build community, it's actually to attract locals and keeps our, uh, keeps us relevant beyond just overnight stays. So you can be the cover member even though you are not staying in the hotel. So it's really kind of full membership. Sircle Club. On the other hand, it's really about, it's a guest benefits program, so why do we call it a guest benefits program and not kind of a loyalty program? Because we are really giving the benefits to the people, right? Normally the loyalty programs are associated with the points and that's associated with the tier, like gold, bronze, platinum, those kind of things. Sircle Club is really there to reward Darville bookers so that you really show this appreciation for the people that they are booking with us and how we do that by giving them perks, like, uh, free upgrades based on availability, then special offers. Huge recognition, which is actually part of Undercover and the Sircle Club, and that all, both these platforms are powered by digital, uh, thing with always with this mindset of which is mobile first. Meaning that nowadays it's very hard to kind of persuade someone, Hey, you need to download this app and you do this. So we are really focusing on web apps because they're very approachable for the people. They feel like apps, but they're not, and you don't need to download anything. So the, it's really effortless and for people gives them really kind of a nice security and feels very natural to them. And all of that is kind of covered by the full CRM integration. Uh, and it's creating the value for the guests while optimizing actually how we operate. So as to mention the, the cover. It's very different than our Sircle Club, as you mentioned before, as we have these coworking spaces, it's really there to bond people and it goes beyond the state, the states. It's really there to kind of make connections, also let people networking, but also doing, uh, so many cool events, which we started in Barcelona and now very soon opening in Vienna too. And people love us for that. Adam Mogelonsky: And one of the whole things with integrating these two different business models, local memberships and guest benefits, is you have a unified CRM that integrates both of these major segments. Is that correct? Dado Ljumanovic: So what we now have is actually, uh, well within our, uh, tech landscape. So we managed to connect multiple systems to talk with each other where we are extracting the necessary information for the each system. For example, for the CRM, we would be more focusing kind of okay, each member doesn't, it can be, or someone who is the member for the cover or someone who is for the Sircle club or general booking. So we are collecting all this data within our CRM and obviously we have kind of sub cms, which are also used more for operational services. For example, during the payments or managing the membership levels for the cover, or kind of just focusing on Sircle Club, kind of giving the people benefits. Kind of, Hey, you stayed three times with us. Maybe you should get this and this and this. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. And that's, that's very tough to manage that whole, uh, architecture of the data flows, of who goes where. And, uh, when do you, um, prompt someone with a microservice or, uh, have them flow over to another piece of technology? Is that something that. You've set up with your team over the past eight years, or was this something that you inherited and you've, you've progressed? Dado Ljumanovic: So I, I'm not only proud of Sircle Collection, but also by myself because for the past 17 years, this was always what I do. So they always kind of make, uh, a joke of my name. When I say data then, then they say data because I'm obsessed with data and actually how to connect these dots. So, uh, I. I, I'm very proud to say that I didn't inherit it. So it was all built, uh, by me, but also with lots of other team members from it, from the membership teams, marketing revenue. So all of us, we call it ourself, kind of a SWAT team where all the people with different specialties are kind of connected with each other, and then we just work to make it happen. So it's not just me, but it's really the whole Sircle Collection team working together, putting our specialties in one place and connecting the dots together. Obviously for that is very important to have very flexible partners. Uh, so the, the, the biggest challenge is always finding the suitable partner, if I can put it like that, because as I said, we are very unconventional when it comes to these kind of things. Adam Mogelonsky: Yes. And um, the whole thing with being flexible, looking for flexible partners and doing something unconventional right now, right? This is unconventional now, but other brands are probably looking at Sircle going. Well, I'm, I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to make a lifestyle product that integrates locals and guests and bring them all together to, to create community. But that's your, that's your IP that you've developed by finding those flexible partners. So I'm wondering within there, without naming names or anything, but how, what was your process for narrowing down to find those partners that you could trust to develop the, the services and the, the guest experiences you want, whether the guest is local or far away? How did you select those systems, choose your partners, while also maintaining a budget, which is another key part of all this. Dado Ljumanovic: Yeah, no, that's a great question and obviously one of the biggest challenge. But what makes us kind of, um, maybe different or maybe our approach, how it works is that we really, before we start rolling something out, we always do the internal round on checks, meaning creating, okay, what, what is needed for the marketing, what is needed for the e-commerce and digital? So we are creating the checklist, but then it goes to different departments from finance, what kind of online payment getaways we need to connect over there, or. When we talk about the revenue, how can we interview? So every department provides its own checklist. So we appoint the product owner. It depends on how heavy the, uh, the project is. It could be if it's really kind of, uh, for the cover. So we had multiple, uh, product owners, so all of us were kind of conducting these interviews, the checklist together. Once we have all collected these, then we start the execution. Yes. Then how do you start it? Right. How do you search for these partners? Obviously, uh, we are not running even from the startups, so it's really kind of who is the best, best fit for us. Then yeah, you talk with the industry peers as well, like, Hey, how is it going? But you also hear a lot. It's very important to visit the conventions as well, to hear, to speak with the people. But as I said, it doesn't need to be kind, well known kind of, uh, partner out there because it doesn't mean that that. Too flexible and we don't like to be handled as a number, which is, for us, one of the most important parts. We really consider all our partners really kind of extension from our own teams, and that has been now for years. So, as I said, having the checklist and doing a kind of a really deep, deep, uh, diligence, like, okay, who is out there, how they can help us, how they can serve us, and how flexible they are. Because sometimes you can find a partner and they say like, Hey, Dado, I don't have it, but I'm willing to develop it. Uh, it's amazing. That's already kind of the first part when it comes to really like, kind of to the tech stack. One of the first things, obviously GDPR is very important to come into this. I always ask, okay, where is the server located? How is the server protected? Can you send me the GDPR documents so I can check it with our privacy guys legal team? Once that is checked, then okay, we have a real proper conversation. And then what kind of API is there? Because nowadays you can really connect systems, uh, very easily. If there is a kind of open API like rest, API, which you can re use, and then from there pretty goes straightforward. Yes. Then it all goes in the hands of developers, and as I mentioned, the specialist within Sircle Collection. And then we make it happen. Sometimes we have a call with 25 people in there, and then it's like, who is doing what there? But then you need to kind of have these, uh, product owners, for example, for the cover, uh, ly the mural. Walter is also one of the pro donors, obviously, but then supported by me and few other people. And together we kind of, uh, feed all the partners and find the, the solution. Adam Mogelonsky: So you mentioned a lot of very cool things. There are at least things that I find cool, but one thing that I have to be conscious of is, um, there's a lot of acronyms in hotel technology and, uh, within that, um, one that you mentioned is rest versus so different types of structuring APIs. Could you unpack what rest means? Dado Ljumanovic: So to keep it kind of in simple words. So you mentioned already there are kind of two different APIs. So you have a soap, API and you have a rest API. The difference is in very kind of narrow way is the soap API is pretty straight down and it's very kind of limited to what you can kind of extract. It's little bit outdated as well as most of the kind of the tech companies are moving to the rest. Why is rest important? Because you can literally write to the complete system, meaning that you can take over the partner system and the partner system can take over you. You can also establish something which we call the two-way connection to where it means there is like total data exchange between the two partners. Obviously we can create boundaries where we say, Hey, you go until that part and you go until that part. So rest API, it's. More flexible in this kind of a sense than the old school one, uh, which is called, uh, soap. Adam Mogelonsky: So, right. And, um, the whole idea here of GDPR and doing that deep dive, just so everyone is clear, why is that so important that, uh, compliance with data at rest and data in transit is so important? Dado Ljumanovic: Well, we take GDPR very, very serious, but also we are very happy with GDPR. So lots of people like, uh, my previous actually podcast was about GDPR, like, because I was speaking in the convention and the guy was like, why you are happy about GDPR? And I was like, it's happy because it makes us really think about the guests. What do we know about the guests and how important this data is for us because. In hospitality. There was, for a very, very long time, we were collecting so much data. And then the, the big question came up when GDPR is like, do you need a lot? Right? So what is the most important data? So why do I love it? Because it really makes us think, okay, what are we getting or actually absorbing? And actually how can we expose ourselves? For example, the cover and the Sircle Club are perfect examples because we really show to the people what we know about them. And there is also kind of a behavioral kind of syndrome where people, when they see their profiles and what we know about them, everyone has something like, it's like a gaming, you know, I need to reach my a hundred cent profile. So by using GDPR in kind of the right way and exposing yourself, giving the people option to share more with us, but also to let them know what we know about them, you actually get better profiles. You are gonna also think twice. How again, am I gonna use this data and where is it valuable for? So then obviously why is it important? It started in 2018, so it was enforced by European Union. So it's mandatory that for the GDPR, that obviously the people can, uh, know what kind of data is exposed. Then it's mainly kind of driven on the newsletter consent so the people can kind of unsubscribe them, uh, by themself and not kind of being, uh, pushed by the companies like, oh, you immediately our database. And yeah, it's also connects a lot with the server where the data is stored. So for example, for the European running hospitality groups, it's kind of really a must that is a server in located in Europe. So there is a kind of full control on it. Uh, but yeah, as I said, we really take it very serious and we, uh, work all very strongly to kind of. Maintain it, but also to really kind of enhance that because then you really know what you have in your hands. Adam Mogelonsky: And do you see data privacy and data security? As a brand, uh, as, as part of the brand equity of Sircle Collection or other hotel groups. Dado Ljumanovic: Well, obviously for us having the data, and especially when it comes to the members, yeah. That kind of gives you the boost to, um, in many ways, one of the ways is to stay flexible, to be in control of your brand. And to be able to function independently as well. Obviously you can work with affiliate partners and so on, but then you are not completely kind of dragged into that silo. So it's kind of a nice cooperation where obviously you have affiliate partners, you have the OTA channels and so on, but you also have your own data, which you can utilize over there, which really opens up many, many different revenue streams, uh, in all kind of ways. And it's then up to us internally within Sircle Collection to find the perfect balance. Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. There's one other element we haven't mentioned for Sircle Collection, and that is how you, uh, interact or have partnered with Design Hotels and Marriott. Could you describe the history of that relationship as well as, um, the, how, how your data integrates? Dado Ljumanovic: So mentioning it to Sir Hotels as a, as as our premium brand. Indeed it's part of, uh, design hotels and design hotels, again, part of Marriot. So, uh, with this relationship, uh, obviously you get access to a lot of knowledge as well, uh, from their part and also the, the big awareness that they have because Sir Hotels has a brand really, um, combination with design hotels. It fits because we are design driven. Uh, uh. Company, company, uh, and how it works. So our systems integrate so that availability, the rates and the loyalty data flow kind of flow correctly while we keep our, uh, own CRM at the center this way, then we honor our brand identity and the guest relationships while tapping into the global reach. So that's actually, uh, how it functions and so far has been, uh, very successful. Obviously have benefits and disadvantages, but it's very normal, like in any other relationship. Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. And um. Just to unpack that a little more because you know, you have a very unique loyalty system and loyalty apparatus are built around the CRM. Are you pulling in data from Marriott, guests that stay, and then is that going over into Marriott's profile from SIR Hotels? Uh, are you able to unpack that a little more? Dado Ljumanovic: Well. As I said, everything has kind of benefits and disadvantages, so obviously the people who are booking and staying with us, then that data is kind of shared between the both of us. So we, we cannot have access, obviously, to some different, uh, hotels under design hotel, uh, but we kind of have a full, as I mentioned before, API between, uh, both companies where we do, uh, exchange data and then also with agreements with them. We also have kind of, uh, clear rules how we use it and then interpret that in our systems. So it functions pretty good and it gives many ways, lots of benefits as well. Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. And where I'm going with this is a lot of the technology architecture at a hotel now is becoming very CRM centric around the, around the stack that, that your team has built over the years. And I'm wondering if you could describe, just in a general sense, so people understand why the CRM, a CRM centric architecture is so important, how you are enabling marketing or sales teams to build long-term relationships with guests by having great data flows and very clean structured data within the CRM. Dado Ljumanovic: Yeah. So, uh, good question. So it really depends for each group. So also from my experience, the previous companies too, but at Sircle Collection, so we, this, we see the CRM. In combination, uh, with the PMS as the heart of our tech stack. So these two have very deep, deep connections. So the PMS runs operations obviously, but the CRM is what builds relationships. So that's actually how we see it. So at Sircle, it holds in a full guest profile and powers the lifecycle journey. So what does it mean from the pre revival communication to reactivation campaigns? So every interaction then feels personal and also obviously creates, uh, the long, uh, lasting, uh, uh, loyalty which kind of grows naturally then within that kind of perfect marriage. So for us, yes, the CRM, it's very centric and gets a lot of data input, but it's a lot driven by PMS. As I said, thanks to these APIs, then we can enhance both systems and they can kind of learn a lot from each other. Adam Mogelonsky: Right. And from there, what we're really looking at for what you're maybe doing now and then looking for the future is one-to-one marketing journeys where we we're able to know something about our guest and not just blast some of the general information. We're really able to cultivate that relationship based upon what we know about the the guest. To better serve them and also to make a strong business case for Sircle Hotels. So on that front, I'm wondering if we could speak to how you are enabling these outcomes, these positive outcomes for both the guest and Sircle by curating and allowing for these marketing journeys. Do you have any examples there that you can lead, lead us on to give us a visual for how you're doing this? Dado Ljumanovic: So. Uh, when data is accurate, obviously then we can set up journeys. We have multiple journeys, obviously, because, uh, now going into the age of. Hyper personalization is not the case anymore. That one heads fits all. Obviously from the tech stack, you need to find something like that. But when it comes really to the guests and their data, we create different journeys. Journeys, which, uh, you have a journey for direct bookers. Then you have the journeys for, uh, OTA bookers that the journeys for, uh, the business people and so on. So when it comes, like kind of the bottom line is that we create these different journeys and based on that journey we have flow. So for example, if we take a direct booker in this case, then we would have. Different pre-arrival emails set up for each phases based on the lead time when the guest is coming, and those can include from the room upgrades or f and b upsells or something like that. Then closer to your stay or during your stay based on what kind of data we have on the certain guests. Then we can kind of inform them about giving the prompts about the events or special offers at the moment, what's happening through the different web apps or messaging. It can be from the WhatsApp and so on. And then after that, obviously, depending again. Now we are taking the diary bookers. Then we have a posta, uh, emails, depending if we need more surveys to test something maybe too good to explain. We see the posta communication very different. Why? Because you obviously have to deal with the reviews and you have to deal with the surveys. For example, the reviews we use, obviously they go to the review channels because they're very public, right? And the surveys, we keep them for our internal usage to kind of improve our services. This way, kind of, we can constantly improve ourself and obviously the loyalty of rewards, which come after like, Hey, are you a member? Yes or no? Did you, were you a member? And then the whole con like engagement, what we do afterward because the messages are always data driven and they need to be relevant. So for us, it's really the golden rule that the right message at the right time for the right person. Adam Mogelonsky: And that's, that's a very hard thing to do to determine that relevancy and, uh, the context of a guest can change depending on the stay. So are you able to use data to identify how guest context is changing? For instance, somebody who's coming to one hotel and it's midweek and they're by themselves, so therefore it's more likely to be a corporate stay, but then they're coming and you notice that there's a, um, you know, an additional guest profile in the room. So it's more of a vacation style and therefore the, the messaging changes from there are, are you able to do those kinds of differential analysis using the systems you've created? Dado Ljumanovic: For sure because, uh, for us being a leisure or business guest. I can't say it doesn't exist anymore, but becoming kind of something new, which is already there. Like a new trend on the market. It's kind of pleasure called, right? Where someone who is, who was a business booker, loved the hotel, can return with his family or so on, and become a leisure booker again. So obviously we use this data based on the channel, the market, the segment. This guest is coming to create something which is called dynamic elements. Dynamic elements are, it can be through the emails, it can be through the special lending pages, through the booking engines and so on. So, or all the conversion tools we use. And based on these variables, we can change the content applied based on the data we are gathering on the guest. So if someone is, I dunno, uh, a direct booker who, uh, booked a suite, for example, yeah, I don't have a further room upgrade over there. I mean, you already booked the top tier of that hot room, so the only part is I can put you or in my house or on the top, on the roof or the hotel. So obviously for there, when they come. Get the pre-arrival email that looks very different and it's really focusing, kind of enhancing that experience with that current room type. So obvi, as I said, we are using different data points and segments to constantly change the communication towers the guest. So even if we don't have the email from the guest, then we are like, okay, well you're doing the reregistration in the hotel, then it's gonna ask you to be more required. Obviously it's your free choice to do it. Yes and no. So we are able constantly to kind of put these dynamic variables to kind of touch base, uh, different digital touch points to create, uh, kind of, I always hope for that a hundred percent complete profile, which is in my world, called the Golden Record. Uh, golden Record is something which needs to be established, I hope, by every, uh, hospitality group. And those are the unique key fields which you need. Uh, indeed, fingers crossed the key, uh, key fields what you need, uh, to be able to run all your systems. Adam Mogelonsky: And the dynamic elements that you're talking about, you, you're working with the marketing team to devise what those are and how to best leverage those. Is this something where you are guiding the marketing team, or is the marketing team sort of saying, well, we're noticing this and we want to be able to do this. Uh, can you help us execute on that? What's the actual process that goes on to really maximize the capabilities of the, of the tech architecture that you've configured? Dado Ljumanovic: Great question again. So, uh, it obviously my team sits on the most of the data because we, it's not that we only see the booker's data or, but we also see people visiting or touch basing with different touch points. So it really depends what the, the case is, if it's a demand hotel, if it's a new hotel, or if it's just kind of existing hotel with updating the journeys. So we have multiple departments, uh, we call it the commercial team, obviously, which is kind of there and. All, and the commercial team is formed by the, obviously the marketing, e-commerce, revenue and sales. And we all have, uh, insights and based of these insights, including the help from some data analysts we have in the company as well. Then we create kind of alerts or we create signal the trends and based on these trends. And then we anticipate. Then obviously when it comes to the dynamic content, we definitely need our marketing and branding team to cognize that it looks beautiful, that it kind of speaks the, the tone of voice of the brand. Then it comes obviously to us to kind of translate the digital part. Then it would hit the revenue to kind of connect different kind of dynamic patches of pricing, depending what the person, so it's not just my team, but it's really collaboration of multiple teams and that makes us definitely the Sircle Collection really kind of working on one big island. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. And, uh, the, the team collaboration, everything in hospitality is, is teams working together, uh, and finding a good process to come to a decision and getting the people involved who need to be involved and, Dado Ljumanovic: Exactly and breaking those silos. You know, there is like, no, this is my department, I mean in this hospitality has been chased so much by retail because people are kind of, what do they call, expecting? Different trends, different things over there. And you know, when Amazon of this world, et cetera, it's like going so fast, fast, fast. When you come to the hospitality, people are, I can't say, almost expecting the same, but the ease of it, it's actually there. So that's why the collaboration between all the teams needs to be super close and kind of attached to each other to survive in this kind of. Fast pace culture, which is kind of hanging around us, especially COVID has like, um, how do you call it, speeded up a lot as a lot of things have moved digitally. So, uh, so yeah. Adam Mogelonsky: So Dado, it's great that you mentioned retail because what we're seeing is hospitality is not just hotels, it's not just guest rooms, it's also the Sircle Club members, members, spaces, co-working spaces, and retail and, and of course f and B through seven Nord. So I'm wondering, could you describe the retail component of a lifestyle brand like Sircle and how that can help to curate unique products that you can't find on Amazon, and also contributes back into the overall business model of the members of the hotel, et cetera. Dado Ljumanovic: For sure. Well, uh, being an, uh, design driven brand, uh, obviously then aspect of design and artwork is very, very important for us. Uh, X Bank actually came to the lobby, which is located in Amsterdam. Definitely good to. Check it out. It's kind of, we call it the Dutch vault of designers, where we have kind of different designers from Netherlands providing pieces from the clothing, furniture and so on. So this obviously has a huge impact how we style and do our hotels, but not only through the X Bank in Amsterdam, but also working in other cities with locals, uh, where we have our own art curators. We have, uh, people responsible for design and many other things. Make our hotels, uh, stand apart. Besides that, then when we have the design team and also the curating team, they work also closely with our marketing teams, and then we bring that retail part as well in the hotels. What does it mean? That means that we have kind of mini shops as well within the hotels where the guests are able, or actually people are outside the hotels. If they see something, then they can always, uh, enter and kind of purchase a certain product, which is actually just available for us, or specially made for us, or it's kind of exclusively found by us. So that makes us very special. And then. In our hotel, you can see it through everyway, through the mattresses we have, through the, the chairs or lamps or whatever, um, that we really put lots of love and effort into it. And then certain items can be then found in, uh, in those shops, which are actually present on location as well, and can be purchased too. So those local partnership, it doesn't, it doesn't matter which hotel it is from SIR or Mexico Park, they are very, very important for us and then gives kind of this additional vibe, which actually our guests really appreciate Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, I mean the, the, the guests really appreciate it. It en, it engenders loyalty. It also from the financial side, it also engenders a DR uplift, um, increasing the nightly rate because people can feel that style. They want to stay there. It generates more demand. And as it relates to the data side of things, whenever people encounter the retail side, there's. there are concerns, uh, and challenges around the e-commerce payment rails, the inventory storage, and how you're marking that off and distributing the inventory across different hotels. And then as well, um, how we're going to use that data, the retail side of data and bring that in to know more about our guests. Are there any, uh, touch points that you wanna, that you wanna mention there, uh, for how you can integrate, uh, and solve these challenges for retail? Dado Ljumanovic: Obviously, uh, having a kind of. Real shop and store. We can see where the demand and interest from the people lies over there, but also getting a really valuable feedback. As I mentioned, we have the, the surveys, we have the reviews, et cetera. So we use all these data kind of to analyze, okay, what is really important for our guests? What is moving our guests? But obviously what makes this kind of the logical part, uh, for a certain brand as well. When it comes to the partnerships, for example, at Max Brown, we launched a dog campaign where we are really proud that we are really kind of openly saying like, Hey, we you are, you can come and book with your dog over there with us and you can book a dog package. And then in there, when you come in the hotel, we have a shop and also one part of the shop is dedicated to the dogs. But you can buy a dog bowl where you can. So we really kind of look into the market and what fits certain brands and then kind of anticipate on it and display it for the guests. So obviously they are not huge shops like where you would enter like a normal shop from another different uh, brand, but it's really a shop which fits that certain hotel within a certain property, within certain location. And it's kind of makes sense for the people as well because selling Amsterdam products, it doesn't make to do it in Barcelona, right? People expecting different things in Barcelona. So that is actually the part which is super important and we really kind of. Try to nurture that part and really listen what needs to be over there and obviously generate revenue from it. Um, and constantly be on top of the game where our definitely marketing team together with the branding team and designers work very closely to kind of always come up with something new or we had a great collaboration with, uh, uh, for example for, with the soc uh, partner. So we had our own socks, our own pajamas. So yeah. So kind of really listening what is needed and what fits the brand anticipate based on the data and Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. and uh, I think the overall point that I was getting at with these challenges in retail is that it's all part of an ecosystem. And that ecosystem needs to have, uh. Proper data connections underneath it to really make it work on a cost effective basis while adding value to the guest experience and the business overall. with that tangent covered, there's one other side of the digital guest experience, uh, that we should probably touch upon, which is this whole idea of channel shift. And right now there are a lot of different channels which have a high cost of acquisition. And one of the key aspects of a CRM is to better know our guests in order to find ways to get them to book direct or, um, to feed them through some form of digital marketing channel as well. So, uh, to, to get them into a direct funnel. So I'm wondering, could you touch on how your role, uh, on the digital side of things helps to. Uh, really promote a channel shift strategy that favors direct bookings and lowering the acquisition costs. Dado Ljumanovic: When it comes to direct bookings, obviously Deere, uh, Sircle Club plays a big role, uh, in the competition out there with kind of, let's say loyalty benefits program. It's high. So we try to kind of make ourselves, uh, set apart. Obviously we do that with. Uh, strong analysis of the market and then what can we offer that makes kind of sense out there. So driving more towards, uh, kind of the Sircle Club is becoming one of our keys. Why? Because having a benefits platform, how we call it for us, uh, it has a lots of benefits in sense of like acquisition costs are very low because when you already have lots of data, then it's kind of easy to kind of communicate to the non-members like, Hey, these are the perks which you can get. And Hey, you stayed in Barcelona, but did you know that we are located in nine, 10 other cities where you can visit as well? People kind of like that. And we try to anticipate on these kind of things, waves to show kind of logical stuff to the people. On the other hand, we also look at the trends a lot. One of the trends, which is kind of moving the direct bookings and setting the, the direct channel apart from other channels as well, that you can jump on a topics which are kind of. Trending in the world. One of the topics is kind of solo travel, right? Solo travel is something which is kind of raising in Europe a lot, but also in other countries outside Europe too. And then we were looking, okay, which hotels of ours locating in certain cities are kind of great to facilitate that and then we create the whole story about it to also, uh, also create more popularity that also solo travel is also cool on the other side as well. Uh, we have really cool hotels and by cool hotels. Then we also have cool rooms when it comes to that and we also look, Hey, how can we also accommodate, uh, guests who are coming with the kids? So we call it cool kids state. Like they're really thinking along like, okay, seeing through the data, which hotel kind of has a potential to facilitate kids what is child friendly and so on to also for them. So really kind of creating these segments. But that all kind of lives with the Sircle Club because. One of our, well, our core values from the Sircle collection is that's how we run, is that we're always ambitious. We are always very passionate. We offer the heartfelt service, but my favorite one, we are always surprising. so that surprising element is really kind of what moves people, set them apart, uh, from the others. Because even though if you're trying just regularly to book in our booking engine and people see, oh, suddenly there's a lower price, that is, because we say it very, oh, we see somewhere else the price was cheaper. We, we got you. Here's the same price found on the other channel. And then you enter the whole flow and people just love it. And yeah, it kind of fits, fits, really good. Adam Mogelonsky: you measure surprises? Dado Ljumanovic: Well, obviously, uh, love that question. Uh, obviously true conversion, so we do a lots of testings. From variety of tests. It can be small, it can be big. But then also together with our partners, we are uh, trying not to just be focused and say, oh, we are hospitality group with this kind of very set standards. No, we look lots of, at retail, we look a lot from airlines, so we really wanna learn. Like, okay, what are they doing that people love and how can we anticipate that? For example, uh, when we are getting people on our websites, I always love the example. We were working with one partner and we had to establish a new channel, which would bring us quite some substantial revenue. But in order to do that, we, we had to be careful that there is no friction because people would enter from completely different website to our booking engine. And normally that scares away people, right? And so we were like, okay, how are we gonna do that? So we looked for example, lot with airlines and we discovered that people like lot, you know, that famous loading wheel and it says, we got you covered. We are unlocking the special deals and offers. You'll be visiting this website, stay tuned. And then we literally use the same sister and people were booking with us and it's been so successful. So as I said, um, it's really kind of not being kind of. Stuck or focused on one, but really listen what others are doing over there. For example, if you look at Amazon and everything, and then you would see like, Hey, there is a discounted price, or This product has been purchased so many times already. That's called kind of that persuasion or behavioral marketing. These methods, we apply a lot, as I said, in combination with the flexibility and the willingness of our partners also to help us surprise these people, and that's why we are really part proud of our partners because they like these challenges too. It's kind of, they're like, wow, you guys really think different Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. And well, thinking different is part of what you mentioned about the key differentiator for Sircle Collection, and that comes down to the teams. Everyone has this core mission to think different in different ways, and that's really cool. Um, now you mentioned persuasion marketing. You also mentioned the growth around solar travel and how you've, uh, you've designed experiences for that. This requires a lot of research that you have to do on the market, uh, in order to have a feasibility to then determine where to allocate resources. So I'm wondering. What is your process for conducting research to determine where to allocate, uh, your time. Dado Ljumanovic: So obviously we, as I said. We put a lot of time and effort and budget as well in connecting the systems. Once the connecting the system, that means that you don't only look at your own data, but you looked at the data or OTAs, et cetera and so on, and mentioning the solo campaign. Then we looked like, hey, we see a trend that lots of rooms get booked from certain channel, from certain country, and they're all single meaning. One person staying in a room with single bed or just booking a room as a single person. So we took that element, uh, together with the research conducted by our marketing managers to really explore, does our hotel in a certain area fits this group, which is kind of booking over there? Once we kind of have this perfect handshake, now we are calling again in a digital world. Once we have this perfect handshake, then we say, okay, now this is worth investing. And that means requiring the whole campaign around it, including from advertising, uh, from social advertising, PPC, advertising, working with the bloggers, uh, who actually really divide effort and time on that. Working with influencers who are really kind of really focusing on that interest and all that combined and forms the campaign, which we then roll out obviously for certain things. Sometimes you build a campaign to kind of plant a seed. Which will kind of grow in a beautiful flower. And then some projects you immediately kind of get a beautiful flower this in the first place. So it's kind of putting the love and effort into it, knowing how the market is moving and kind of anticipating on time. We can also take, like we had the, just in Amsterdam, a beautiful event, uh, I hope uh, many people have visited was called Sale Amsterdam. So where it's a lot of where people are coming over there. So we also really wanted to inform people, Hey, this is happening because not everyone is kind of both enthusiastic and not Lots of people love these huge events in the cities, but we really wanna immediately inform the people and make them aware like, Hey, you are coming over there 'cause you're coming over there. You can expect that, you can also expect the higher prices, but this is really what we are offering. These are the events we are also organizing. So really kind of to make these people comfortable, to feel that they're in Adam Mogelonsky: Wow. And that's, uh, I think the key word there to describe all that is it's a process and it doesn't stop. It's always ongoing. It's, it's a tremendous amount of work to constantly check on these things to make sure that you're proceeding the right direction. Dado Ljumanovic: Yes. And oh, I mean, systems help a lot and together with the partners, we work more and more to get kind of, kind of an, a AI element in there, which would kind of help you to get this alerts, this spikes how we call it, like that something unusual is happening or has a potential, and then based on that, kind of creates the whole process. So you do have kind of technology helping you a lot, but then most of the time it's really kind of as well, um, uh, manual work, uh, which is kind of invested in the Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. Dado Ljumanovic: it happen. Adam Mogelonsky: So to wrap up our conversation, just with a few points, what's next? First Sircle Collection. Dado Ljumanovic: Well, for us it's like keeping deepening personalization and then expanding the cover as members of private membership program and a Sircle club, our benefits program. And then in general, simplifying our tech stack, which is super important. Then working more on these kind of things, which is kind of online, check in, check out digital keys, uh, working more on the web apps to kind of, uh, really, so all these things will play a bigger role and as we open new hotels, the digital infrastructure will ensure that we always deliver the same high quality, but the most important part that we have seamless experience everywhere. That's kind of the key, which connects it because being a like independent hospitality group, um. As I said, it has lots of benefits, but one of the disadvantages is over there, uh, when you compare us versus a a, a well established OTA, we only get chance once when we get someone seeing our website or any our digital touchpoint. We need to feel, uh, kind of strong. I always say we cannot do it, uh, better than OTAs, for example, or any other channel, but we can do it greater. Greater means putting kind of really, uh, more love and effort into the deep knowledge that we can really comforted guests that we really have it under control because. If the guest sees or potential booker just one friction, they will give up, which doesn't happen that often, like if you go to book on Expedia or booking com, which have a huge name, uh, out there with many, many hotels represented, and people are well known with that. When they come and check our websites, which are again different than the other ones, we only have that one chance and that chance needs to be Adam Mogelonsky: Wow. So this can dovetail into the final question, which is you're doing amazing things for Sircle Collection. You're looking at making a greater customer experience and a more frictionless one. What does that entail, or what does that, um, imply for the future of the guest? The digital guest experience overall for hotels? Dado Ljumanovic: I believe that the next wave will be kind of hyper-personalized so that it's really kind of connecting more and more systems to each other, not just this regular system, but it can be the weather forecast, the traffic. They're kind of connecting with the airlines more. And then obviously with helping, uh, with AI helping predict needs and tailor experiences, I think this is gonna be kind of the real big next wave, what we also already see. But it started already a few years ago, but now even more that guest experience is really mobile first. And then mobile first. That needs to be frictionless with the tools over there that really the guests within few steps can kind of accomplish why they are there. It can be by booking a room or requesting a group meeting and events, uh, making a request or booking an event with us, or just kind of exploring where it needs to stay, kind of frictionless. The other part is, which is definitely growing within hospitality, is that element of sustainability and wellness are in front and center. So and so more hotels are becoming, as you mentioned, as well, these lifestyle hubs. So places to connect, work and socialize and not just to sleep. So all this kind of entice together. I think this is the next future wave and um, I'm actually very excited to Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, the, uh, I'm huge on wellness, uh, as an enhancement. And you can just see that with, with, other brands, uh, and Sircle as well, where it's people are coming to work, they're coming to sleep, but also they want, uh, they wanna identify with brands that are sustainable. Because this is a very real thing and they also want to engage in wellness, uh, you know, visit the spa or maybe have a, have a treatment or have some form of healthy menus, or do some fitness classes and meet cool people while they're there. So that is, it is a huge area of growth and it will keep growing over the next 10 years. But again, it all comes back to you because you have to monitor all these things with, with great data and great customer profiles. Dado Ljumanovic: Correct. And then you need to be able to kind of always show it to the guests. So for us, obviously sustainability is very important, but also how do you, I mean we do mention a lot like locals, working with locals, but, and how you need to somehow prove that. And one of the things that we also do that we have for each hotel, a charity which we support to, and the charity kind of fits the vibe and the guest thing over there, it just kind of feels more natural, but also incentives you do in a hotel explaining about sustainability. And it's really there that, yeah, you need to prove it to the guests and the guests really appreciate it a lot. Adam Mogelonsky: Dado, is there anything else that we haven't mentioned that you wanna cover? Dado Ljumanovic: Yeah. First of all, thank you for all the great questions. Uh, I love when I have, uh, positive of me, someone with the great questions and I can kind of open up and share my passion about hospitality in combination with data in general, kind of digital marketing. So yeah, I, I just can emphasize and say like, the collaboration supported by data is the really the key for the future for all my colleagues out there to really kind of, set themself for the next big thing. I think that is kind of the, the deal over here. So, uh, yeah. Thank you for all these great questions. Adam Mogelonsky: Great questions, but even better answers. And you are doing amazing things at Sircle. I really mean that. So Dado, thank you for coming on the show. It's been an absolute delight to speak with you for well over an hour. Dado Ljumanovic: Great. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. Thanks